Guild Wars 2

The second is people who think it’s fine, and want minor tweaks to various skills. To this second group I say: the Mesmer is not supposed to be a pet class.

The Mesmer is fine for the most part and I don’t play it as a pet class.

Give doing damage back to Clones. That is all, thanks.

I am utterly exhausted by the lobbying to make the Mesmer something other than it is. It seems like every Tom, kitten, and Harry is convinced he can do a better job designing and balancing an entire profession mechanic after playing this game for a few weeks than the entire ArenaNet development team could over five years of professional development. What’s almost as frustrating to me is the abiding dread that the company might cave to this pressure despite the fact that they did an exceptional job and most of us Mesmers are delighted with the profession.

It’s that dread that keeps me watching this forum with suspicion and annoyance and animates me to pop my head in from time to time to encourage whatever unfortunate staff member is tasked with keeping up with us: Mesmers are fine. The people wanting to gut the profession in no way represent me or the rest of us.

I have ideas for the profession too, of course, but they come from a strong conviction that the profession isn’t broken. I’d love to see dual pistols (along with greataxes and rifles), and if we were to see utility skills that gave us off-mechanic pets, that’d be neat, but I believe this is stuff for content expansions. I’d love to see some QOL changes, sure, and balance is an ongoing process in a game like this, but I would strenuously object to an overhaul of the illusion/shatter mechanic.

Xhieron.2168:

I am utterly exhausted by the lobbying to make the Mesmer something other than it is. It seems like every Tom, kitten, and Harry is convinced he can do a better job designing and balancing an entire profession mechanic after playing this game for a few weeks than the entire ArenaNet development team could over five years of professional development. What’s almost as frustrating to me is the abiding dread that the company might cave to this pressure despite the fact that they did an exceptional job and most of us Mesmers are delighted with the profession.

It’s that dread that keeps me watching this forum with suspicion and annoyance and animates me to pop my head in from time to time to encourage whatever unfortunate staff member is tasked with keeping up with us: Mesmers are fine. The people wanting to gut the profession in no way represent me or the rest of us.

I have ideas for the profession too, of course, but they come from a strong conviction that the profession isn’t broken. I’d love to see dual pistols (along with greataxes and rifles), and if we were to see utility skills that gave us off-mechanic pets, that’d be neat, but I believe this is stuff for content expansions. I’d love to see some QOL changes, sure, and balance is an ongoing process in a game like this, but I would strenuously object to an overhaul of the illusion/shatter mechanic.

So you think it is “fine” that most our dps comes from Phantoms? Guess you think it is also fine that our unique mechanic wants us to DESTROY them for some measly damage that doesnt even compare to keeping them up? Guess you are also fine with destroying them and loses all the benefits we get from the traists – 9% extra damage, 9% reduced damage and the Movement buff

Guess thats all “fine” is it? The class in its current state ISNT fine, sure its not broken but it isnt working as they intended but instead of correcting those issues they are ignoring them – simple fact is in its curren state:

1. Shattering is broken – Lose too much damage as well as benefits from destroying the clones and it is better in 99% of situations to keep them up

2. Phantoms do WAY to much of our damage – we have to rely on them WAY to much, without them we would be toast to nearly every class

3. Clones DONT confuse people its easy to tell which is the real player – its the one that moves and the one that uses abilities other then the 1slot skill of the weapon

4. Clones are pretty much useless in PvE very little damage and even the AI mobs ignore them most of the time

As i said, the profession isnt broken, but it surely isnt “fine”

So you think it is “fine” that most our dps comes from Phantoms?

Most of Mesmer DPS in a phantasm build after 12 seconds comes from phantasms.

Go figure.

Guess you think it is also fine that our unique mechanic wants us to DESTROY them for some measly damage that doesnt even compare to keeping them up?

The damage is solid if you trait for it. In addition it can be mostly free damage if you have good timing. In addition, you get many, many effects throughout all the trait trees for using Shatters.

Guess you are also fine with destroying them and loses all the benefits we get from the traists – 9% extra damage, 9% reduced damage and the Movement buff

I’m not sure if you’ve read and/or understood the tooltips, but Clones will suffice for those traits as well. I don’t know about you, but when I Shatter I can typically summon 4 or more Illusions immediately after. Ironically, you can only have 3 out anyways, so …

Guess thats all “fine” is it?

Yeah, pretty much.

1. Shattering is broken – Lose too much damage as well as benefits from destroying the clones and it is better in 99% of situations to keep them up

It’s actually better in 99% of situations to Shatter the Phantasms at the correct time.

2. Phantoms do WAY to much of our damage – we have to rely on them WAY to much, without them we would be toast to nearly every class

You choose to rely on them for damage. And then you complain about relying on them for most of your damage …

3. Clones DONT confuse people its easy to tell which is the real player – its the one that moves and the one that uses abilities other then the 1slot skill of the weapon

They’re not meant to fool people easily or for long. They do an adequate job of temporary distraction if you move in specific ways; e.g. dropping LOS so they don’t actually see you, using stealth, moving behind and in front of them via swaps and blinks.

4. Clones are pretty much useless in PvE very little damage and even the AI mobs ignore them most of the time

Staff clones produce WOC. Sword clones increase your total damage by 1% per attack. All clones can crit and bleed via SI. They absorb projectiles. They can all be Shattered.

EasymodeX.4062:

So you think it is “fine” that most our dps comes from Phantoms?

Most of Mesmer DPS in a phantasm build after 12 seconds comes from phantasms.

Go figure.

Yeah so WHY would you want to destroy the phantoms that do most of our damage? I can understand for clones but if you have Phantoms out Shatter should NOT be used – 1 attack from a Dualist Phantom does MORE damage then if 3 clones/phantoms are destroyed with Mind Wreck….

Guess you think it is also fine that our unique mechanic wants us to DESTROY them for some measly damage that doesnt even compare to keeping them up?

The damage is solid if you trait for it. In addition it can be mostly free damage if you have good timing. In addition, you get many, many effects throughout all the trait trees for using Shatters.

“solid” thats questionable, when 1 Phantom doing an attack does MORE damage then shattering with 3 clones/phantoms out i dont see the point in using it at all, sure traited might do a bit more damage, same can be said for Phantoms

Guess you are also fine with destroying them and loses all the benefits we get from the traists – 9% extra damage, 9% reduced damage and the Movement buff

I’m not sure if you’ve read and/or understood the tooltips, but Clones will suffice for those traits as well. I don’t know about you, but when I Shatter I can typically summon 4 or more Illusions immediately after. Ironically, you can only have 3 out anyways, so …

Not in every situation you will be, maybe get a Phantom or clone out, if you have Mirror Images (which should summon 3 not 2) then its okay, but again why would you want to lose all that damage destroying Phantoms?

Guess thats all “fine” is it?

Yeah, pretty much.

Opinions, everyone has one.

1. Shattering is broken – Lose too much damage as well as benefits from destroying the clones and it is better in 99% of situations to keep them up

It’s actually better in 99% of situations to Shatter the Phantasms at the correct time.

“correct time” – that would be the 1% of the time, again when 1 Phantom out does the damage of Shattering why would you destroy them? Sure might need it for Distortion in some cases, Confuse doesnt really do enough damage to warrant destroying Phantoms

2. Phantoms do WAY to much of our damage – we have to rely on them WAY to much, without them we would be toast to nearly every class

You choose to rely on them for damage. And then you complain about relying on them for most of your damage …

So where is this magic damage going to come from? the Clones? yeah they hit real hard? :/ You have NO other ways of getting that kinda damage out. Sure you get the odd attack that does good damage but most of our damage from a fight will come from Phantoms, i would happily have them doing constant low level damage ( say a few hundred per a hit) and have that damage moved on to increase Mesmer attacks and clone damage

3. Clones DONT confuse people its easy to tell which is the real player – its the one that moves and the one that uses abilities other then the 1slot skill of the weapon

They’re not meant to fool people easily or for long. They do an adequate job of temporary distraction if you move in specific ways; e.g. dropping LOS so they don’t actually see you, using stealth, moving behind and in front of them via swaps and blinks.

They are MEANT to confuse your target so they get hit – which is kinda funny when they die when they just get sneezed on. if you get that target thing, you STILL have it after you rbing out new clones so you get ZERO benefit in the confuse department

4. Clones are pretty much useless in PvE very little damage and even the AI mobs ignore them most of the time

Staff clones produce WOC. Sword clones increase your total damage by 1% per attack. All clones can crit and bleed via SI. They absorb projectiles. They can all be Shattered.

I was talking about how they are MEANT to get attacked to protect you, except in most cases the mob will run right past them and go right for you no matter what

“solid” thats questionable, when 1 Phantom doing an attack does MORE damage then shattering with 3

Not really.

I also get 4 stacks of Might and 4 stacks of Confusion when I Shatter, in addition to Vigor. Depending on mood swings I may also get 4% raw damage from vulnerability stacks.

again when 1 Phantom out does the damage of Shattering why would you destroy them?

Aside from being incorrect, you, and most players, need to realize that Phantasms don’t just “do damage”. They do damage 6 seconds later. It not a complicated concept, but seems to fly over the head of most. You (abstract-you) seem to perceive the full future timeline as a single compressed event, when that is not the reality. Boggles my mind.

if you get that target thing, you STILL have it after you rbing out new clones so you get ZERO benefit in the confuse department

You seem to want clones to distract human enemy players for long periods of time, as if they were NPCs.

Not gonna happen. Do you think Thieves are happy when I follow them even though they’re stealthed because I know exactly which way they’re going to move? Are they crying about stealth being useless?

Human players use intelligence to mitigate some of your tactical advantages, including clone deception. Therefore, you must use your own intelligence and tactical acuity to gain advantage and maximize clone deception. It’s still there even if it won’t fool a player for long.

I was talking about how they are MEANT to get attacked to protect you, except in most cases the mob will run right past them and go right for you no matter what

That’s an interesting mob AI / aggro discussion. I started another thread to try and get more observations on the topic. I’ve had builds before where clones were actually highly effective at drawing mob aggro. I could go entire fights and get minimal or no aggro from mobs.

[/quote]
Not really.

I also get 4 stacks of Might and 4 stacks of Confusion when I Shatter, in addition to Vigor. Depending on mood swings I may also get 4% raw damage from vulnerability stacks.
[/quote]

You might get some nice boons, but as stated i think it is more worthwhile dps wise to keep Phantoms up then destroy them, of course i agree decent benefits if its clones but Phantoms do MORE damage with just ONE up then when using Shatter – at times i can have several Phantoms up – why would i want to lose all of that dps? sure they can die pretty fast but the attacks they do out weigh what you could get from Shattering them, again this all my opinion

[/quote]
Aside from being incorrect, you, and most players, need to realize that Phantasms don’t just “do damage”. They do damage 6 seconds later. It not a complicated concept, but seems to fly over the head of most. You (abstract-you) seem to perceive the full future timeline as a single compressed event, when that is not the reality. Boggles my mind.[/quote]

Yeah i know they have that recharge time, still with that cool down the benefits from having them up out weighs the minor benefits you can get from destroying them – Now i could summon one let it do its attack then destroy but why? if you are going to do it then you do it with 3 up, now if you get 3 phantoms up then why would you destroy them 3 Phantoms doing 2-3,000 damage every seconds – thats like 9,000damage every 6seconds (Phantom Dualist) Plus they get benefits from giving conditions, high crit chance and such

[/quote]
You seem to want clones to distract human enemy players for long periods of time, as if they were NPCs.[/quote]

Human players i can understand – they will know which is the human thanks to the fact that clones dont move what so ever unless the target goes out of range But AI mobs even before they see you and you attack STILL run right for you after you attack AFTER clone/phantom gets VERY annoying

[/quote]
Not gonna happen. Do you think Thieves are happy when I follow them even though they’re stealthed because I know exactly which way they’re going to move? Are they crying about stealth being useless?[/quote]

Am i crying? No. i just dont understand the whole thing, if you are stealth you shouldnt be able to get it, if you have clones/phantoms out then they should all get it – but of course that wont happen

[/quote]
Human players use intelligence to mitigate some of your tactical advantages, including clone deception. Therefore, you must use your own intelligence and tactical acuity to gain advantage and maximize clone deception. It’s still there even if it won’t fool a player for long.[/quote]

“intelligence”? Its not really rocket science – The Mesmer is the one that is MOVING that is about all you need to know, slightly different for downed state but when they are up – the real mesmer is the one that is moving, all clones and phantoms will only move when the target goes out of range

[/quote]
That’s an interesting mob AI / aggro discussion. I started another thread to try and get more observations on the topic. I’ve had builds before where clones were actually highly effective at drawing mob aggro. I could go entire fights and get minimal or no aggro from mobs.[/quote]

I dont change my spec at all, but for some reason some fights i will get NO agro what so ever – go into another fight, against the same kinda mob and do the same kinda thing – summon Clone (from staff) then warlock and go into WoC attacks and yet 1 fight no agro, another fight they will totally ignore the clones and phantoms and go right for me

if you get 3 phantoms up then why would you destroy them 3 Phantoms doing 2-3,000 damage every seconds – thats like 9,000damage every 6seconds (Phantom Dualist) Plus they get benefits from giving conditions, high crit chance and such

I pretty much never get 3 phantasms up in any fight worth talking about, because they either die or my target dies.

Also, last I checked, shattering two phantasms and immediately resummoning two phantasms also gets about 75% of a free attack sequence, so it’s something you want to do anyways to accelerate phantasm attack cycles.

So the shatter damage is free on top.

Literally, you’re talking about:

5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0

10000 damage in 12 seconds (833 dps)

versus:

5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5000 | 2500 (shatter) | 2500 (first resummon) | 2500 (second resummon) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0

17500 in 15 seconds (1167 dps)

It’s pretty obvious that shattering and re-summoning is more DPS. However, the vast majority of people in the world have a hard time with math, analysis, and basic modeling. Not surprising but it’s tedious to read this absurdity over and over.

“intelligence”? Its not really rocket science – The Mesmer is the one that is MOVING that is about all you need to know, slightly different for downed state but when they are up – the real mesmer is the one that is moving, all clones and phantoms will only move when the target goes out of range

Lmao. No offense, but this means you are inexperienced at PvP. It’s pretty easy to abuse LOS, stealth, and teleporting behind the player / attacking out of their immediate field of view to abuse clone deception. The entire point centers on delaying their ability to click the correct Mesmer target. If you attack them from behind, and they see 3 targets, they need to take at least a moment or two to identify the correct Mesmer. If you teleport behind them and summon clones, they need to do this process again. If you duck behind LOS for even 1 second and use any ability, they need to evaluate who is the Mesmer … again. Call Target mitigates some of this, but there is still a lot of room to work with. The best part is when you duck behind them / out of LOS and they need to process whether you’ve stealthed and dropped the Call Target or not.

In no case should the deception last more than a second, but in most cases you should get a half second of the enemy retargeting, which can waste their cooldowns or simply delay their actions.

Mine do about 3,000-4,000 damage and gets to about 7,000with crits with ONE Dualist. Then add the damage the Mesmer does. Plus we could be talking about different trait sets so damage out put is always going to be different

Lets say 3,000 damage per a Phantom per a attack thats 9,000damage at least with no crits Now the first set 3,000 damage then summon the second one so it will get 2 attacks off before the second can be summoned so in 15 seconds it will be 3,000+3,000 (first Phantom 1st and second attacks) and then it will be another 3,000 and 3,000 damage (first phantom and 2nd phantom attack) thats about 12,000 without counting Mesmer damage + Plus the buffs the Mesmer gets for clones/Phantoms being up as well as the conditions given when crits which Phantoms have a high chance – think its something like 70%

In short term fights, trash and such maybe it could be worthwhile IF traited to blow them all up and not traited for the benefits – But again that is just ONE trait set – because it “works” for you to blow them up, doesnt mean it does for everyone but again all this damage talk depends on alot of variable – Level, traits, Phantoms used, other clones, crits and such

You are also taking in that the Shatter will work – ignoring terrain which they get stuck in as well as the fact that most classes will be able to destroy the phantoms with AoE attacks and such

Using Shatters isnt 100% accurate and doesnt always work – where as having them alive they still do damage as well as give me benefits and give target conditions

Did i say i was the best PvP player in the world? No, am i decent? Yes and of course i do that when available but that doesnt stop the fact if you are on a point EVERYONE on the other team will know the real mesmer is the one that is moving, LoS and such isnt always an option there are many points fights where you cant do that unless you run away from the point hide, do your thing and return

A moment or 2 isnt going to save you. As soon as you move, they know who the real mesmer is plus the fact that Phantoms and Clones die within 1-2 auto attacks sure that might stop you getting hit once or twice but is it going to save you in the long run? very unlikely

Blink is very much a wasted slot for PvP, of course again this is dependent on trait set and play style – for me Signet of Illusions is FAR more important, though even then the clones and Phantoms dont last more then a few seconds even against Auto Attacks

It would be nice if Mirror Images not only summed 3 clones (which it should do anyway) but that it had a second effect that swaps your place randomly with another one of your clones and makes the target lose you as a target when used – this could have like say a 10second cool down so can be used upto 3 times

Most players (me included) will not use any attacks on mesmers other then Auto attack until i know its them – pretty easy they take HUGE damage then you know its a clone plus they get summoned with full health – mid way through a fight and you know the mesmer has taken damage – look for the one that doesnt have full health

Lets say 3,000 damage per a Phantom per a attack thats 9,000damage at least with no crits

I get a shortbow ranger hitting zephyr and rollfacing 15 attacks into my 5 stacks of confusion after I Mind Wrack (for the record, that’s in the neighborhood of 7500 damage) about as often as you have 3 iDuelists up plinking a non-afk target in PvP.

Now the first set 3,000 damage then summon the second one so it will get 2 attacks off before the second can be summoned

Oh …

You’re one of those people that don’t swap weapons.

I feel dirty now.

You are also taking in that the Shatter will work – ignoring terrain which they get stuck in as well as the fact that most classes will be able to destroy the phantoms with AoE attacks and such

Lol. Shatters are pretty reliable.

Also … yeah I totally agree on AOE attacks blowing your iDuelists up. Lol.

Using Shatters isnt 100% accurate and doesnt always work

Does “obstructed obstructed obstructed intercepted obstructed” sound familiar for your iDuelist?

Did i say i was the best PvP player in the world? No, am i decent? Yes

You don’t swap weapons.

sure that might stop you getting hit once or twice but is it going to save you in the long run? very unlikely

Working as intended. Clones are not intended to tank for you. That’s why you have Distortion, Blurred Frenzy, Phase Retreat, Chaos Armor, Diversion, Mantra of Distraction, Decoy, Blink, Feedback, Arcane Thievery, Phantasmal Defender, Prestige, Phantasmal Disenchanter, Illusionary Counter … I think I missed about half a dozen, but my old age causes my memory to fail all too often nowadays.

Most players (me included) will not use any attacks on mesmers other then Auto attack until i know its them

So … what you’re saying is that the enemy Mesmer basically has you running around idle spamming 111111 for [X seconds] until you find the real one?

How long does it take to find the real Warrior?

I use Staff and Sword/Pistol so of course i swap, but with a 10second cool down, i do it when needed Staff better when needing Range and sword/pistol when needing to get close

Depending on the situation, will start with Sword/Pistol go with Magic Bullet, Blurred Frenzy and then use iLeap for Cripple and Immobilize and a few Auto attack Vulnerable stacks into another iLeap followed by Blurred Frenzy

If i am range before i go in i switch to Sword/Pistol get the Phantom Dualist out use Magic Bullet before switching to Staff and getting Warlock out fast and going with WoC, will use Chaos Storm on allies rather then enemies.

You can never say “oh i will do this when this happens, do that when that happens” its all about the current situation, if you have the OPTION to swap then you can but that isnt always an option

That all depends on IF they use Zephyr and try to unload, so they dont do that and you dont get that damage – i tend to see alot of people when they see they have Confuse will stop attacking and use movement to get around – sure that is good for survivability but its damage that you want – they dont do damage they dont take that extra damage

I have seen LOADS of times where Phantoms/Clones will just stop the moment they hit a little change in the terrain and then just blow up doing no damage or anything to anyone

Yeah that will some times happen, but does it happen as often as getting stuck in terrain? in my opinion no it doesnt plus the Phantoms MOVE to get back in line of the target the shattering clones/phantoms will just stand in that place and explode

Again, i DO swap weapons BUT only when its right to do so, will i swap to the Sword/Pistol JUST to get a Phantom out if i am at range? No it would be better to wait for the Warlock to come up and still have the option for YOU to attack

“working as intended” from what i read about the class when they were first mentioned the class wasnt meant to be a pet class, with the Phantoms doing quite a bit of our damage i would say we are one in the respect that we NEED them be it to explode or for the dps the problem is that this sort of thing for being our unique mechanic is that it tries to force into that sort of build, it slike its there so we MUST use it but its ONLY effective for certain builds which isnt the same for the other professions unique mechanics, no matter how to decide to trait its still viable for us it isnt unless traited that specific way.

its like what 3 attacks at the most – if they die, they are the clone, if they take huge chuck of health in damage they are the clone if they move away when you move towards them they are the real mesmer

You can never say “oh i will do this when this happens, do that when that happens” its all about the current situation, if you have the OPTION to swap then you can but that isnt always an option

Oh, I always make it an option when I shatter with the intent to resummon.

That all depends on IF they use Zephyr and try to unload, so they dont do that and you dont get that damage

Kind of like your 3 iDuelist fantasy requires that the person survive for what, 18 seconds of phantasm pew pew, while restraining themselves from looking crosswise at them and blowing them up in about a half second.

I have seen LOADS of times where Phantoms/Clones will just stop the moment they hit a little change in the terrain and then just blow up doing no damage or anything to anyone

That’s not how they actually function.

its like what 3 attacks at the most – if they die, they are the clone, if they take huge chuck of health in damage they are the clone if they move away when you move towards them they are the real mesmer

Congratulations, you just made the enemy waste 3 attacks worth of time every time you summon some clones or drop yourself from their vision. That’s a hell of a lot more than most classes get.

Yeah so you need to have Clones/Phantoms ready to summon, which means swapping weapons as well so you would you swap to melee weapons JUST to get that Cloe/Phantom up and have to either run into melee or stay at range and do no damage or wait for one of your current weapon set to come active again?

Does it matter? if they die they die – If you shatter and get Confusion on and they DONT use that burst damage attack then thats 3 clones/phantoms pretty much wasted – sure they will take damage but will it be as much as you would have gotten with the Phantoms up? from what i have seen Bleeds do more damage then Confused targets – of course again, based on my trait set.

It might not be how they are meant to function, doesnt stop that happening though i have seen many a time they will suddenly get stuck somewhere and explode without anyone near them.

Not really, as soon as you know which one is the real one you dont really lose them in target though, i can target someone have them run away, go LoS and still i will be targeting them

Yeah so you need to have Clones/Phantoms ready to summon, which means swapping weapons as well so you would you swap to melee weapons JUST to get that Cloe/Phantom up and have to either run into melee or stay at range and do no damage or wait for one of your current weapon set to come active again?

1. Why do you think I have a “melee weapon set”?

2. Did you know that sword has a 600 range teleport? It also has a 2 second invulnerability so you … actually stay in melee.

Does it matter? if they die they die – If you shatter and get Confusion on and they DONT use that burst damage attack then thats 3 clones/phantoms pretty much wasted

Does it matter? If your target gets obstructed or blocked by anything — say, a random enemy clone — the iDuelist volley get rofled? I can count on 1 hand the number of times I’ve been hit by iDuelist in WvW.

It might not be how they are meant to function, doesnt stop that happening though i have seen many a time they will suddenly get stuck somewhere and explode without anyone near them.

No, really, you’re not describing how they actually function.

Not really, as soon as you know which one is the real one you dont really lose them in target though, i can target someone have them run away, go LoS and still i will be targeting them

KK.

It’s pretty funny that you still don’t accept that with good timing, it’s categorically superior to shatter and resummon to reset the phantasm attack timer and extra shatter damage.

how would i know what weapons you use, could be Torch/scepter for all i know. Yeah i do know that but again even that has issues, like iLeap not actually creating a clone even when in range though Blurred Frenzy rocks – quality with Time Warp

I’m not talking about WvW, i am talking specifically S/Tpvp WvWvW is just spam attacks until something dies for most of the time, rarely get any 1vs1 situations its normally huge groups so in that situation i stick with the Staff

Their function – run up to enemy and explode thats what they are MEANT to do, what i am saying is that they dont always do that i have seen and had it happen to me where they will run towards someone, get stuck and explode doing no damage or anything to anyone near them

Its ONLY categorically superior IF you trait that way and thats what i am saying we SHOULD have to trait and play a specific way for our professions unique mechanic to be a benefit – not everyone wants to play that exact way it get the mechanic to work, some people dont want to have to trait that way to get the mechanic to work

Can you name another profession where the mechanic REQUIRES you to be traited in a specific way for it to be worthwhile using?

Yes, Mesmer is fine.

As for the details, well: What EasymodeX said.

I’m going to assume the above disagreement is solely focused on how much damage we can churn out. I’m also going to be using GS a lot in my examples just to keep it more condensed. I have a tendency to type a lot :x.

The minor traits in illusion beef up a shatter if only a little. If we’re talking about dealing damage one of our best specs i’ve found is 10/30/0/0/30 with some wiggle room in the last 10 points of Illusion. So for DPS purposes we’ve got 2 offensive phantasms from our weapons. So you can start with one set and swap to another, while you pew pew in that setup, watch your phantasms.

After cooldown refreshes (or slightly before ) watch for their last attack. If your phantasm attacks say, 2 seconds before its cooldown is up go ahead and shatter, resummon, and swap back immediately. Trying to run triple phantasm is such a fragile way to DPS. So many bosses are walking wastelands.

It’s categorically superior because you’re refreshing phantasm attack time getting some free shatter damage (which is just icing for us really), confusion damage if traited, and most importantly opening up your clone generators and therefore the utility your clones bring ( Staff clone is great for some support/ conditions, GS clones are great with SI specs like the one suggested above). Not to mention the GS’s Mirror Blade hits pretty hard and coupling it with Illusionary Elastictity when appropriate is lovely. Even in a phantasm build, the clones should contribute something and not having access to generators shuts us down far too hard. With only 2 phantasms out you can spam Mirror Blade on CD. This will proc clone death traits as you replace them (again icing here.)

If you wait for that third phantasm CD and just hold on to them you’re putting all your eggs in one basket, to use a cliche. You hope that unfortunate AoE pairing won’t annihilate your turrets before CDs allow them to be replaced. Even then, 3 phant uptime is rarely 100%. You also lock yourself out of using the scepter entirely if you don’t shatter and while I think it’s a weak weapon overall it has its uses. Like when melee is unsafe, and the fight calls for a warden or a duelist. I’m sure you also find yourself holding onto those phantasm cooldowns so that you can replace them when they get wiped out. If you are, you’re missing out on that attack refresh with the shatter.

With so many traits sprinkled throughout our trees that allow for small bonuses to clone death( replacing them counts!) or shatters removing conditions and the like, it’s hard to find a good build that avoids all of them completely. So I don’t find having to trait them to be useful an issue either.

Now back to the thread topic.

I do agree that shatters could be visited. If we’re balanced around shatter damage being a reliable source of DPS, and it usually is, I personally don’t see a problem with making them even more reliable. The delay on the button press vs the damage being delivered feels a bit off. I don’t really think we need to be buffed or deal more damage. We’re a strong class and we have a lot of utility to bring to the table that no other class can bring.

Having the option of ranged Shatters being instant would be like a Christmas present at this point and after playing with the class for a long while and discovering ( or reading) all of our quirks I don’t think we need massive changes.

Edited last paragraph for clarity and made some changes for an easier time reading. Also as a not class specific wish-list condition gear with magic find on it please!

Now i dont mind how we do damage as much as i find the whole Shatter system only useful when Traited for it, my trait load out for example makes using Shattering pretty useless, i take traits thats benefit keeping them up, giving them more damage, giving me more damage, decreased damage and movement speed with having them up

Its fine having different trait options, but in my opinion its NOT fine when the profession mechanic for it to be worthwhile means having to trait a certain way – all the other professions no matter what way they trait they will still have a good reason to use the unique mechanic as much as they want, sure they can trait to make it better but even untraited its still very solid no matter how you trait your character

Its like they are trying to force a specific playstyle on us just to get use out of the mechanic – The thing is i LIKE how i play now, i DONT want to have to change my whole playstyle for a profession mechanic that isnt quite up there with the others (usefulness no matter how traited)

We should get the CHOICE of being the kind of mesmer that WANTS to destroy the clones/phantoms or the ones that WANT to keep them up – unfortunately if you are the later the professions mechanic (Shatter) is pretty much useless for us

Damage wise, they could in my opinion quite easily fix tha, reducing the damage that Phantoms do – maybe even to 0 and just turn them into Condition giving/spread Phantoms that we create to give and spread conditions and then up the damage that the actual mesmer does as well as beefing up the clones survivability a tad (so they dont die when sneezed on)

Its the Shatter system that is the problem, it is only beneficial to those that WANT to play that way and WANT to trait the character that way for the rest of us, its pretty useless and THAT is the big issue here

The traits you’re describing can have negligible downtime when using swap + 2 phantasms and a clone generator as clones count as well. You’re arguing that there are some builds that do not want to shatter.

This is simply untrue. Even with those traits you do want to shatter as you only gain damage and the attack refresh if you do it correctly. I find your argument similar to an elementalist that only wants to be a fire mage unless I’m misunderstanding.

We just don’t work that way, having 3 phants always out not only disables your class bar but the 1 and 2 block portion on scepter, the 2 on staff and GS, and the 3 on sword. Shatters are used in all specs once you get the timing down. Even one with 0 traits aimed at shattering wants to shatter. Those phantasms are going to be replaced soon anyway you may as well pick up some more damage while you’re at it.

Traits can enhance our shatters but you’re free to enhance other things as well and still find them useful. I’m not looking to get into an argument but please consider the points made by others. I’m not in love with our shatter mechanic and I think it could be improved upon, but essentially removing our class bar is not a viable form of play right now.

Edited to elaborate a bit at the end. Added a bit more then I intended apologies XD. Let’s please not turn this into another 3 PHANTS VS SHATTER 2012 THUNDERDOME. Make suggestions that would enhance how you play instead of condemning our class mechanic. Or make a thread that condemns it heh.

Its ONLY categorically superior IF you trait that way

False. It’s categorically superior if you have 0 or more trait points to spend, and you’re not zerging a DE boss with 50 people.

^
These two conditions apply to the vast majority of Mesmer gameplay in GW2.

I mean, bro, I even sketched out a nifty little pseudo-table showing the damage breakout. It’s clear as day to anyone who can think straight and pay attention to the timing of their cooldowns and phantasm attacks.

After 80 levels of combat, you tend to get a good feel for the behavior and timing of your phantasms and the rest of your abilities. Well, maybe that’s an assumption that goes too far for some people, but I know it’s true for me and I hope it’s true for most.

I still think cry of frustration is a bit weak. Torch needs an overhaul, and a few traits that don’t work need to be fixed.

Since those are minor things…. I guess given the theme of the thread seems to be redesign the class I’d really like the ability to transfer a majority of phantasm damage to the mesmer (with traits or something). That said, I like the class as it is, but sometimes phantasms die so fast you almost wish you were on another class or running a different (more survivable) spec since a large portion of your damage is getting stomped out immediately by decent players.

If I can ask that the discussion please remain civil and respectful – it’s fine to disagree or provide a different perspective but I think it’s far more convincing if you can do so without having to resort to personal attacks or insults.

Fortunately, there would seem to be plenty of other threads where you can debate the minutiae of whether or not your damage numbers are bigger or more frequent than someone else’s damage numbers and why – I don’t think this is the best place for it.

I’d much prefer to see more ideas, comments and opinions on what you personally would hope to see for Mesmers in the future, or alternatively why you hope they remain just as perfect as they are now.

I think the only thing the class really direly needs…

is a tutorial for each of the weapon abilities. ESPECIALLY for abilities that fire attacks in rapid succession.

Sure, it’ll only help out the 1% that RTFM instead of blindly clicking through, but something’s better than nothing!

- all tooltips updated and reflect actual numbers and cooldown times.
- hp bars enabled.
- all bugged abilities and traits fixed.
- daze shatter now stacks in duration.
- mind wrack shatter now makes all clones/illusions home into its target to do damage and gives the clones/illusions a 30% run increase when they do so.
- phantasmal haste changed to give them perma- swiftness instead of increased atk speed.
- scepter #2 ability changed to a phantasmal necromancer summon thats stacks bleeds at 900 range.
- scepter #3 ability animation sped up.
- pistol now added as a mh weapon, with a auto attack that stacks confusion, #2 blind shot on 12 sec cd, #3 phantasmal sniper (rifle as a weapon) does 1 shot, slow atk speed.
- phantasmal swordsman now spawns next to the casted foe, instead of next to the person that casted it.
- phantasmal warden now moves and attacks its target.
- ilusionary defender hp increased, and it now attacks from range.
- phantasmal mage dmg increased.
- arcane thievery can now be casted even if u dont have any conditions, and now properly steals all boons.
- mantras tweaked somehow.

All i can think of for now

1.- If u’r a mesmer and you spec it into Phantasm dmg.. well.. isnt OBVIOUS where ur main damage is gonna come from?? isnt OBVIOUS that you’r gnna use shatter less than a Shatter/clone spec build? Just like a Thief that spec into cond dmg.. you think he’s gnna spam heartseeker like 90% of the other thiefs built for that kind of dmg zzz..

2.- If u’r not spected into phatasm dmg.. u BARELY EVER use phantasm.. and your damage comes from yourself rather than phantasm..
if you have no clue what im talking about.. you have BARELY played your class enough to be asking for changes..

3.- Also even if u’r traited for Phantasm.. Phantasms have a coldown on attack.. they’r not attacking their target 24/7… so.. you can use that cd time to shtter and recast and instead of waiting 7s cd between 1 attack.. u can just recast and.. BAM… insta attack again.. u just got bonus dmg from shatter and fast attack cd… win win right?

Idk why.. but i have the feeling all this people that ask for radical changes.. are EXACTLY the ones that have BARELY played the class.. and just complains because the class itself is just too much for them to handle..
for example…….

“Make phantasm permanent and not die to a target”
“Make shatter do 10k dmg so we can shatter phantasm and be ok with it”
“Make clones do 1k dmg instead of 1 so we can use them too”
“Make mesmer hit 5k so we dont have to use illusions”

seriously.. wtf
if u wanna change the class so bad.. go play some other class that fits you more.. ther’s 7 other classes..
one must suit you better.. Lol!

seriously.. wtf
if u wanna change the class so bad.. go play some other class that fits you more.. ther’s 7 other classes..
one must suit you better.. Lol!the only real improvement that i’d find viable would be something that some person suggested in a different thread..

seriously.. wtf
if u wanna change the class so bad.. go play some other class that fits you more.. ther’s 7 other classes..
one must suit you better.. Lol!the only real improvement that i’d find viable would be something that some person suggested in a different thread..and it was the illusions dot marks.. to make them different color and with symbols for different phatasms/clones..

seriously.. wtf
if u wanna change the class so bad.. go play some other class that fits you more.. ther’s 7 other classes..
one must suit you better.. Lol!the only real improvement that i’d find viable would be something that some person suggested in a different thread..and it was the illusions dot marks.. to make them different color and with symbols for different phatasms/clones..i dont think the class need any other tweaks or changes..

seriously.. wtf
if u wanna change the class so bad.. go play some other class that fits you more.. ther’s 7 other classes..
one must suit you better.. Lol!the only real improvement that i’d find viable would be something that some person suggested in a different thread..and it was the illusions dot marks.. to make them different color and with symbols for different phatasms/clones..i dont think the class need any other tweaks or changes..You guys think other classes have ALL of their skills/traits fully usefull/good..?? lol

seriously.. wtf
if u wanna change the class so bad.. go play some other class that fits you more.. ther’s 7 other classes..
one must suit you better.. Lol!the only real improvement that i’d find viable would be something that some person suggested in a different thread..and it was the illusions dot marks.. to make them different color and with symbols for different phatasms/clones..i dont think the class need any other tweaks or changes..You guys think other classes have ALL of their skills/traits fully usefull/good..?? lolther’s kitteny stuff in every class.. just like ther’s good stuff in every class..
it cant just ALL of it be good.. jesus..

@EasymodeX
I am not sure your calculation is the “full story”

5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
10000 damage in 12 seconds (833 dps)

versus:

5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5000 | 2500 (shatter) | 2500 (first resummon) | 2500 (second resummon) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
17500 in 15 seconds (1167 dps)

I can do the same thing and say: autoattack with a greatsword is better than casting one phantasm:

2500| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
2500 damage in 6 seconds for phantasm

vs autoattack

500|500|500|500|500|500
3000 damage in 6 seconds for autoattack

=> so, its better not to cast phantasm ?

You have to consider more things.

• First you cant compare different timespans → 12 s vs 15 s.
• Then it is a different thing if you
  - cast 2 phantsam
  vs
  - cast 2 phantasm + shatter + recast 1 phantsam + change weapon + recast 1 phantsam

In your example you are doing more things when you shatter and recast. And you also have to consider cooldowns, casting times, the weapon swap has maybe some disadvantages….

tl;dr → Numbers do not prove anything here. It is good to use them, but they dont prove anything.

Now sure you can Shatter then, but you come into the issues of them running and getting stuck again, exploding and doing no damage to anything on the slighted change of terrain they suddenly get stuck – It would be nice if that:

1. They fixed that – Made so that when you shatter doesnt matter where the clone is (as long as its in say 900range) that it will just explode there and do its Damge or confusion, i mean Distortion doesnt need the clones/phantoms to run at us does it? why should the others require it?

No one is talking about totally changing the whole profession, just tweaking it with my current build i barely get any damage/confusion when using Shatters which would be fine for a general ability or utility standpoint but its our Mechanic, the ONE thing EVERY mesmer will have in common and its kinda wasted in builds that dont take the traits that buff it or anything

“If u’r not spected into phatasm dmg.. u BARELY EVER use phantasm.. and your damage comes from yourself rather than phantasm..”

You SHOULDNT be losing damage if you wonna make something else stronger, you are still the same if you take the traits that improve clones/phantoms as you were before (minus the damage ones) but you dont suddenly get weaker to make the phantoms stronger

And again, no one is asking to change the profession (its NOT a class) just to improve a few things, as it stands our unique mechanic isnt on par with the other professions partly down to design and partly down to bugs and issues

We SHOULDNT need to trait for our mechanic for it to be usable – does Warriors need that? Thiefs? Necromancers? No they can trait to make them better but out of the box, no traits or anything it sucks

I personally think that having the Phantoms just be Condition casters and do no damage and then buff up the Mesmer and clones would be a great idea, werent they meant to be “living hexes” anyway?

- phantasmal haste changed to give them perma- swiftness instead of increased atk speed.

That sounds like a nerf!

2.- If u’r not spected into phatasm dmg.. u BARELY EVER use phantasm.. and your damage comes from yourself rather than phantasm..

Well actually you still use phantasms, since they’re a solid source of damage. You just don’t try to make them turrets, heh.

@EasymodeX
I am not sure your calculation is the “full story”

I think you’ll find that my model is more comprehensive for the topic than that envisioned by 99% of posters.

I can do the same thing and say: autoattack with a greatsword is better than casting one phantasm:
2500| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
2500 damage in 6 seconds for phantasm
vs autoattack
500|500|500|500|500|500
3000 damage in 6 seconds for autoattack
=> so, its better not to cast phantasm ?
You have to consider more things.

Except the phantasm requires 1 minor unit of time to cast, whereas the GS1 spam requires the full time investment.

Shatter requires 0 time to cast. If you want to emply a more detailed alternative cost analysis, it takes significantly more effort than the 1 minute I put into it and will reduce the “shatter and replace” performance by only a small percentage.

First you cant compare different timespans ? 12 s vs 15 s.

Yes, you can, because I normalized it to 1 second by rating it as damage per second.

This is what we do in 7th grade.

Please, stop trying to use grade-school fabrications in a poor attempt to support your fictitious beliefs.

Then it is a different thing if you
- cast 2 phantsam
vs
- cast 2 phantasm + shatter + recast 1 phantsam + change weapon + recast 1 phantsam

Changing weapons is instant. Recasting 2 phantasms requires 2 additional units of time, which is why I extended the duration of the second example to 15s (I accounted the Mind Wrack as 1 second, to pretend that the Mesmer player in question is terrible and requires 1s to use an instant ability; this also accomodates for the fact that certain Phantasms take longer to cast than others).

If you want to apply an alternative cost to using the time units for those purposes, you could subtract about 1.5 casts of Spatial Surge from the latter example, since that is the activity you replace by re-casting the phantasms.

And you also have to consider cooldowns, casting times, the weapon swap has maybe some disadvantages….

I assume that the Mesmer player is bad, but not horribad. E.g. I assume they are able to manage their cooldowns and weapon swap timing after 80 levels of playing the class.

Numbers do not prove anything here. It is good to use them, but they dont prove anything.

Hey man, I can lead a person to water but I can’t make them drink.

We SHOULDNT need to trait for our mechanic for it to be usable – does Warriors need that?

They are usable without traiting. You just don’t like it. Incidentally you can barely spec into any trait line and NOT pick up shatter traits.

I think the only real improvements Mesmer’s need are these:

1. Allow illusions to persist, instead of vanishing the moment the monster dies.

2. Allow a portion of our stats to transfer to the illusions, say, 25% or so.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Now sure you can Shatter then, but you come into the issues of them running and getting stuck again, exploding and doing no damage to anything on the slighted change of terrain they suddenly get stuck – It would be nice if that:

1. They fixed that – Made so that when you shatter doesnt matter where the clone is (as long as its in say 900range) that it will just explode there and do its Damge or confusion, i mean Distortion doesnt need the clones/phantoms to run at us does it? why should the others require it?

No one is talking about totally changing the whole profession, just tweaking it with my current build i barely get any damage/confusion when using Shatters which would be fine for a general ability or utility standpoint but its our Mechanic, the ONE thing EVERY mesmer will have in common and its kinda wasted in builds that dont take the traits that buff it or anything

“If u’r not spected into phatasm dmg.. u BARELY EVER use phantasm.. and your damage comes from yourself rather than phantasm..”

You SHOULDNT be losing damage if you wonna make something else stronger, you are still the same if you take the traits that improve clones/phantoms as you were before (minus the damage ones) but you dont suddenly get weaker to make the phantoms stronger

And again, no one is asking to change the profession (its NOT a class) just to improve a few things, as it stands our unique mechanic isnt on par with the other professions partly down to design and partly down to bugs and issues

We SHOULDNT need to trait for our mechanic for it to be usable – does Warriors need that? Thiefs? Necromancers? No they can trait to make them better but out of the box, no traits or anything it sucks

I personally think that having the Phantoms just be Condition casters and do no damage and then buff up the Mesmer and clones would be a great idea, werent they meant to be “living hexes” anyway?

1.- i shatter 90% of my fights.. and i’v never EVER seen a clone/phantasm get stuck anywhere and exploding to air when using mind wrack or any offensive shatter,
I guess i just Shatter smartly rather than just spam click it whenever i see it rdy

2.- if they made the shatter 900 range it would be too OP, giving the fact that some of them are already AOE effect, incresing it to 900 covers waay too large of an area and having 3 clones would make it too imbalanced affecting pretty much every enemy in the fight

3.- Another things that all mesmers have in common: Clones, phantasms, purple colored skills
idk what makes you think every mesmer is unique apart from JUST the shatter skills

4.- How can you say “You SHOULDNT be losing damage if you wonna make something else stronger”
is called BALANCE, you cant just have aaaaaaall the goodies in 1 build, know why? because is NOT balanced,
and every1 would just go with that one build if it was that way
or you think a Cond dmg thief is gonna do the same dmg with heartseeker than a Raw STR/Agi/crit dmg build?

4.- You dont need to trait for shattering in order for it to be usefull,
You just have to learn how to play it propertly, either for dmg, saving yourself or stoping enemies

you think thief wouldn’t loove to have perma full initiative so they could spam skills all day long?? you know they have traits and skills that improve initiative?
or you think elementalists that spec in cetain element use the other elements as often as their main one?

I don’t think people realize that shatter-commanded illusions will stop in place and shatter when their target dies, or goes to the ‘last known position’ when the target stealths, etc.

Not surprised.

Auflauf.1679:

@EasymodeX
I am not sure your calculation is the “full story”

5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
10000 damage in 12 seconds (833 dps)

versus:

5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5000 | 2500 (shatter) | 2500 (first resummon) | 2500 (second resummon) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
17500 in 15 seconds (1167 dps)

I can do the same thing and say: autoattack with a greatsword is better than casting one phantasm:

2500| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
2500 damage in 6 seconds for phantasm

vs autoattack

500|500|500|500|500|500
3000 damage in 6 seconds for autoattack

=> so, its better not to cast phantasm ?

You have to consider more things.

• First you cant compare different timespans -> 12 s vs 15 s.
• Then it is a different thing if you
  - cast 2 phantsam
  vs
  - cast 2 phantasm + shatter + recast 1 phantsam + change weapon + recast 1 phantsam

In your example you are doing more things when you shatter and recast. And you also have to consider cooldowns, casting times, the weapon swap has maybe some disadvantages….

tl;dr -> Numbers do not prove anything here. It is good to use them, but they dont prove anything.

LOL “You kidding right?”

he was comparing the phantasms Dmg alone vs phantasm dmg with shattering mechanicdo you even know that phatasms have an Attack coldown?? do you know what that means?? they’r NOT, repeat.. >>>> N O T <<<< attacking EVERY single second they are summoned,
the attack ONCE every certain amount of seconds depending on the phantasm, giving you, IF u even KNOW how to play your class, enough time to shatter and resummon, getting bonus dmg from shatter and shortening that attack coldown by making new phatasm that WILL attack instantly as they’r summoned.in your * example.. you could be autoattacking after summoning the phantasm.. you dont have to stop cancelling ur autoattack just because u summoned a phantasm.. u’r comparing 2 different stuff that no1 brought to the discussion here..
he instead was comparing how shattering work rather than just waiting for your phatasms to attack again.And people complain about shattering not doing enough dmg to compensate for phatasms destruction.. but Yeah.. sure.. “numbers dont matter here, they dont prove that actually shattering mid attack coldown of phantasm and resumoning is an effective way of shattering”

ALSO, if any, weapon swapping can only give advantages if you have weapon sigil that gives u boons or adds conds on enemies when you swap

1 Faster clone CD

2 More clones

Totally agree Shatters need a faster cooldown. Wish I could Mind Wrack every 6-8 seconds instead of 10.

That would be pretty kitten!

@ EasymodeX

1) “Except the phantasm requires 1 minor unit of time to cast, whereas the GS1 spam requires the full time investment.”
=> Exactly. I hoped you would point that out. You compare the damage of
- 2 minor units of time to cast = 2 actions (2x phantasm)
vs
- 5 actions (cast phantasm 2x, recast, swap, recast – i dont count the shatter).
Sorry, this puts your logic against yourself.

2) “Yes, you can, because I normalized it to 1 second by rating it as damage per second.
This is what we do in 7th grade.
Please, stop trying to use grade-school fabrications in a poor attempt to support your fictitious beliefs.”

=> No, you cant.
6s phantasm damage
2500| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
= 416 dps

7s phantasm damage
2500| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2500
= 714 dps

Now I used your 7th grade logic and it does not work. It is not that simple.

3) I dont say you are wrong, because I dont know. But i know you cant apply 7th grade logic here. You have to consider cooldowns, alternative actions(opportunity costs) and so on. It is more complicated. Best thing you can do is probably test those things in the game and see how it feels.

You compare the damage of
- 2 minor units of time to cast = 2 actions (2x phantasm)
vs
- 5 actions (cast phantasm 2x, recast, swap, recast – i dont count the shatter).
Sorry, this puts your logic against yourself.

Swap takes 0 time, and the recast delay for the next attack is incorporated into the model. As I said you could factor in the opportunity cost for a generic AA for that ~2 seconds, but it would barely make a difference.

=> No, you cant.
6s phantasm damage
2500| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
= 416 dps
7s phantasm damage
2500| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2500
= 714 dps
Now I used your 7th grade logic and it does not work. It is not that simple.

Lololol.

Kid, sit down and apply your brain to understand the reason why I included 5 seconds of trailing zeroes on the second model, which I have already explained thrice. I mean, it’s not like I actually sat there and included that extra time that you complained about to address that exact factor. Rolleyes.

Sidenote: I got to use “thrice”. Thanks!

3) I dont say you are wrong, because I dont know.

Fortunately, I’m a little smart, so I actually do know. Cool huh?

@ConterK
I used this “flawed” comparism because I thought it was more than obvious enough for everyone that only autoattacking is surely not the best thing you can do.

Auflauf.1679:

@ConterK
I used this “flawed” comparism because I thought it was more than obvious enough for everyone that only autoattacking is surely not the best thing you can do.

Ofc only autoattacking is not the best thing you can do because you can autoattack while still doing other stuff

just like you can Shatter WHILE still summoning new phantasm and not losing DPS rather getting somemore from the shatter itself

get it?

EasymodeX:

You compare:

• x actions within 15 seconds (if it makes you happy, lets say x=4 and not 5)
  vs
• y actions within 12 seconds
  And its more complicated than only this.

Typing “Lololol” and “Kid” does not make your points more valid. But please go on with it.

“Fortunately, I’m a little smart, so I actually do know. Cool huh?”
Those comments really do make your agruments more valid.

And its more complicated than only this.

Not really. I compared a full double cycle of both methods.

If you don’t comprehend the reason why the second is 15 seconds, just stop posting. You’re just making yourself look [edit]less able to comprehend basic modeling and making me look like more of an kitten by responding to you.

@ConterK
Instead of shatter + 2x recast you just keep your phantasm and cast blurred frenzy (for example with reflection) and deal 5.000 damage to three other players and take zero damage.
It is pointless to argue here, because its apples vs. oranges.

Auflauf.1679:

@ConterK
Instead of shatter + 2x recast you just keep your phantasm and cast blurred frenzy (for example with reflection) and deal 5.000 damage to three other players and take zero damage.
It is pointless to argue here, because its apples vs. oranges.

You realize blurred frenzy has a 130 range, right?
and you realize that your phantasm wouldnt be doing ANYTHING while you cast your blurred frenzy, right?
instead of reseting their attack coldown and make them attack again for a whole lot more dmg, sure, lets cast blurred frenzy. rofl

@EasymodeX
We can go on forever. You compared oranges to apples. But please go on insulting me.

@ConterK
“You realize blurred frenzy has a 130 range, right?”
And you realize Temporal Curtain has a range of 900, right ?

When I heard that Mesmer’s were returning to GW2 I was ecstatic. I played my fair share of Mesmer in GW1 and it was a blast. Unfortunately most of, if not all of the fun that the Mesmer class used to be felt like it was cut for some reason. I understand that there is no resource system in GW2 so that would remove some of the abilities that Mesmer’s were famous for in GW1.

To me, my ideal Mesmer is denial, punishment and confusion.

Denial in the fact that you cannot use the abilities that you want to use because I as a Mesmer feel that I don’t want you to. Case in point, interruptions, AoE knockdowns and conditions that make the enemy player choose whether or not to take the damage or sacrifice casting abilities.

Punishment comes into play when enemies try and forcibly power through our abilities and are in return rewarded with pain. Where’s my Backfire? Clumsiness? Panic? I should be able to cause damage when my enemies attack me if I feel like it.

Confusion should be the mental state that comes into play when facing a Mesmer. You should know that you will be punished for trying to do damage. You should know you’re going to be interrupted and denied access to your abilities. Being able to control opponents like that is what made a Mesmer an amazing class to play in GW1.

On to GW2 now after my trip down nostalgia lane. I don’t really know how to begin with the whole Illusion thing. It works, yes. It works well, but there is so much more that a Mesmer could have been when you take into account the template that came before it. Right now as it stands we’re way closer to a Jack-of-All-Trades-Master-of-None sort of deal. I don’t like that. It makes me feel like I’m a burden on my team when I play because I don’t know what I’m supposed to be doing.

First things first. We need to take the damage away from our Illusions and give it back to the player. Why the fish am I hitting with my Greatsword for 500-900 damage when my Illusionary Berserker is critting for 2-3k? Why do my Winds of Chaos hit for 200-400 when my Illusionary Warlock crits forkittennear 6k? There was too much invested in the Illusions and not enough in the Mesmer potential.

Next we need to bring back the old and mesh it with the new. I want my Controlled Chaos back. That is essentially what I would call the Mesmer’s of old. I want my AoE interrupts/damage back, my denial of abilities, punishment for attempting to do damage and most importantly my ability to make my opponents to think whether or not to do something or to regret their actions for doing so.

Don’t get me wrong. The Mesmer class in it’s current incarnation works. It just such a drastic change from the way they once were that it’s sad. They are no longer A master of illusion, misdirection, and control, the Mesmer subverts the damage-dealing capabilities of others, manipulating their perceptions to achieve personal goals. (Guild Wars 1 Wiki) They are like many people have been saying, a pet class who rely on buggy AI to do the damage for them.

TL:DR:
Give me back my damage from my Illusions. Give me more denial utility. Give me a defined niche in the group that doesn’t attempt to imitate others.

We can go on forever.

I know: ignorance and arrogance have no limits.

You compared oranges to apples.

I compared fruits to fruits.

Like I said: stop posting until you can understand the model in question. When you do so, then you can criticize it.

They are no longer A master of illusion, misdirection, and control, the Mesmer subverts the damage-dealing capabilities of others, manipulating their perceptions to achieve personal goals. (Guild Wars 1 Wiki)

This is Guild Wars 2.

I enjoyed the Mesmer class in GW1 as much as anyone, but it’s a different game.

EasymodeX.4062:

They are no longer A master of illusion, misdirection, and control, the Mesmer subverts the damage-dealing capabilities of others, manipulating their perceptions to achieve personal goals. (Guild Wars 1 Wiki)

This is Guild Wars 2.

I enjoyed the Mesmer class in GW1 as much as anyone, but it’s a different game.

Just because this is a different game doesn’t mean that Mesmer has to be the only class that was without a doubt completely gutted into something that doesn’t resemble the previous iteration in the slightest minus skill names.

Auflauf.1679:

@EasymodeX
We can go on forever. You compared oranges to apples. But please go on insulting me.

@ConterK
“You realize blurred frenzy has a 130 range, right?”
And you realize Temporal Curtain has a range of 900, right ?

aaaaand,
i fail to realize what was your point with that comment

are you trying to say that u’r gonna use temp curtain to pull enemies towards you??
LOL

i’d love to see that,
a mesmer that instead of kiting, just tanks all the hits, roflmao!

@Vladia
I know what you mean, I was a bit disappointed too. But I still like my gw2 mesmer. They could have done so much more with the clones/phantasm idea imo.

@EasymodeX
“I know: ignorance and arrogance have no limits”
You must know.

@Vladia
this isn’t gw1

people should really STOP asking for stuff that was in gw1, jesus
if u like gw1 so much and dislike gw2 so much, easy, go play gw1 then, seriously

mesmers have all that what you just said in the super long post you made, you (just like 90% of the other mesmer players here) have an immense problem of tunnel vision for skill usage and builds