(edited by Chaos Archangel.5071)
(edited by Chaos Archangel.5071)
I really like your threads. They encourage people to think about the class and work on it together.
Halting Strike - Domination II
3/5 To be honest, Pyro has me second guessing this trait now. It’s not that I don’t think it’s good, but the fact that it’s not scaling properly with power is a bit of a letdown. If it did an extra 1000 damage (in a zerker build), then it’d be fantastic. The problem is that there’s very little reason to take this trait if you’re not running Mantra of Distraction and wearing full zerker, and even then it still has to compete with the more reliable Mental Torment and Empowered Illusions.
- Improvement Suggestion: Make Halting Strike hit an a small AoE radius around the target or add a 2s Chill or Weakness.
Not sure if I agree on that one.
An increase in damage would be welcome. A small AoE would be awesome, too. However, an AoE might be too powerful for area interrupts (Sw4, GS5, Focus4, F3, St5) because it might cause a cascade of area effects. Maybe if the area effect had a seperate damage value than the initial hit? I don’t want it to get an ICD just because it becomes an area effect.
I would not like it to have Chill. Not because it wouldn’t be awesome – it would – but because it feels too much like Chaotic Interruption.
Furious Interruption - Dueling XII
2/5 Furious Interruption isn’t useless. Unfortunately, that doesn’t mean it’s all that great either. It’s difficult to predict, difficult to effectively utilize, gives a lackluster reward and costs 30 trait points; just like a casino! (or the stock market if you’re in US --) while it does have it’s uses, it doesn’t deserve to be a grandmaster by any definition. Hell, the Quickness could even be considered a nerf since it used to grant Fury on interrupt with no cooldown._
- Improvement Suggestion: Grant 3s Fury along with the quickness to both Mesmer and Illusions and move to Master tier / Rework trait: Phantasms attack on interrupt.
Your suggestion sounds interesting but I’m not sure if it would be easy to implement. I also dislike the fact that it mainly benefits Phantasm builds.
I would prefer a longer quickness – even if the ICD was increased. I agree on the added Fury. A totally different idea would be making it recharge your weapon interrupt skills (Sw4, GS5, F4, St5, P5) if you successfully interrupt. This would be rather unique and could work with many different weapon sets. It also makes interrupt Mesmers less reliant on the Mantra of Distraction.
Bountiful Interruption -Chaos VIII
5/5 – _After it’s recent buff, I wouldn’t change anything about this trait. The fact that it’s Master Tier makes it easy to trait into, and it works very well with any build that grabs Greatsword or Focus. What makes it so good, in my opinion, is that it rewards any type of build; shatter, support, phantasms, ect with increased damage and access to boons that can be otherwise hard for a Mesmer to get like Protection and Swiftness. The only drawback is that it competes with Chaotic Dampening… Do you think it could be dropped down into Adept without being overpowered?
I love love love this trait. I agree on the Chaotic Dampening issue. However, considering the amount of might you can generate I don’t see it being moved to the Adept tier. They would need to nerf the might stacks or something and I would not appretiate that. I personally do NOT like the Swiftness. The best use for it is when escaping but most of the time you will procc it while fighting.
Chaotic Interruption -Chaos XI
3/5 – Chaotic Interruption is a bit of a mixed bag. On one hand it’s ability to AoE immobilize is pretty awesome. On the other hand, it’s immobilize is the exact same duration as the cripple it applies… because somehow that made sense to the devs. It isn’t that this isn’t a good trait, but it needs some sort of extra oomph to be worth investing 30 points. Grandmaster traits are supposed to be worth forging a build around, and though skcamow has successfully done this with Chillruption, interrupts are still too fleeting and uncertain to be worth shoveling 30 points into for a reward that’s only barely noticeable.
- Suggested Change: Increase all condition durations by 2s, remove chance of Cripple to improve chance of Chill.
Thoughts?
I totally agree on this one. Immobilize plus Cripple does not make any sense at all.
(edited by Clockwork Bard.3105)
(edited by Advent.6193)
(edited by Alissah.9281)
@Chaos
So the new CS how will it work? So with rune of the mes has 33% daze duration + 25% from CS so that’s longer than 1s daze, but it will turn 50% of the time to a 1 sec stun. So by itself it defeats it purpose if it procs all the time. In short the increased daze duration would only benefit you if CS does not proc?
I literally didn’t think about it although I have been bashing CS the last few days. I’m not sure. It depends if the daze proccs a stun and both are applied or if the daze is conversed into a stun and only the stun is applied. I assumed the first scenario to be the case. If the second scenario is true then the trait would be total crap designwise.
I (personally) would vote we remove the Cripple (plenty of ways to apply it, one of which is a RNG in the same bleeding Traitline…), swap Immob. to one of the randoms, and use Conf. as the “base.” This would also logically synergize with the fact that Chaos offers both defense and ways to apply Conditions.
However, YMMV. Let’s see some more ideas, shall we?
Chaos is a very defensive line. If a trait got changed to proccing Confusion on interrupt I’d rather see it be Confounding Suggestions (or Halting Strike to add a condition dimension to it).
IMO, Interupt traits should work even if you just apply a control effect, and don’t interupt, but to a lesser extent. Something like this:
+1
That would be pretty cool and probably help interrupt builds be easier to play in general and also a bit more reasonable in PvE (but probably still crappy
). Halting Strike and Furious Interruption would then indeed need a secondary effect.
(edited by Chaos Archangel.5071)
One of the benefits of daze or stun is proc’ing our other interrupt traits. This is going to happen whether or not the daze is turned into a stun, so there’s no argument there.
Looking at it from this perspective, it’s really the best of both worlds.
In general, I agree. A stun is always better than a daze due to the reasons you have stated. CS also offers the best of both worlds since it will at least have an increased daze if the stun does not proc.
However, what about people who would like to play a lockdown builds with dazes (not specifically interrupt). Wink, wink, Chaos. We were discussing the benefit of CS because you can increase the daze duration by +50% now making CS. Now the stun procs and all the commitment you made to your dazes by using respectives sigils and runes goes down the drain. This basically means: The higher your daze duration, the less profitable CS becomes. You might want to take CI instead. CS is a bit shizophrenic.
While CS is guarenteed to do something it also is random and if the stun proccs you will have a shorter duration for your lock down. The enemy might be helpless but you also have to gamble wether to pop your burst or not. You will NEVER know for sure if you will get the stun or the daze.
CI on the other hand requires you to interrupt. It can be very hard against certain classes who have short activatin times. It also will be more difficult to apply in larger fights. But you got a lot more control over the outcome.
The question would be what you perceive to be better for yourself?
And are you good enough at interrupting people to make CI work or not?
(edited by Xaylin.1860)
I’m thinking now, to make it more viable for condition builds (and to slap Perplexity runes in the mouth) that adding a 5x Confusion along with the initial hit may be a better idea.
Count me in on kicking Perplexity runes’ butt!
However, 5 stacks might be a bit too much when paired with those runes of evil.
Btw Xaylin we had an interesting discussion that I wanted to continue here.
[…]
You’re right. I’d only grab Confounding if I had Offhand Sword and Mantra of Distraction. But I’d grab Chaotic if I had .. er.. Staff, Greatsword, Offhand Focus, Offhand Pistol, or … Offhand Sword. The thing is, Confounding is guaranteed to have an effect (either daze duration or stun) while Chaotic is not.
I’d grab Confounding if my goal was more to lockdown via chain dazes; which is better for keeping a single target locked out of the fight. I’d grab Chaotic for a more general, versatile, albiet less-predictable lockdown that is better for holding off multiple opponents… when it works. Chaotic, to me, feels most effective when you have another interrupt trait (either Bountiful or Halting Strike) whereas Confounding needs no other trait to shine.
CI does not need other traits to be effective. Interrupts need them.
I agree on CS being more reliable than CI. As stated above, you have to consider if you perceive yourself to be good enough at interrupting or not. Nevertheless, the stun still remains to be random even though at a high chance.
The other thing which was brought up by Stricker is also very important for the lockdown builds you are referring to. You focus a quite substantial part of your gear on the dazes (sigils and runes) to gain an impressive amount of daze duration. And then CS nullifies this effort by proccing a stun basically pooping all over your investment. I personally would be pretty annoyed.
So if ANet feels that CS is finally doing what it is supposed to do, improve lockdown builds by providing some additional stuns and improving the dazes, they should consider if:
Personally, I still feel that CS should do something else. As narcisstic it might sound, I really like the suggestion I came up with. Proccing dazes off of blinds and increasing the daze duration. Even if we do not get any stuns this way. It would open up many new synergies for both interrupt and lockdown builds and works with many skills and traits which are already native to or compatible with the Domination line (possible dazes from Torch4, Scepter2.2, Signet of Midnight, Glamours if using Blinding Befuddlement and probably the best: from Chaos Armor!). It will also provide a bonus to existing dazes through the daze duration. It would not compete with Harmonious Mantra in the way it currently does. There also would not be this dilemma of wanting the stun to proc or wanting the longer daze duration.
That is how I feel grandmaster traits should be. They should be build defining without being a must have for the class in general. They should provide depth to a class by opening up new perspectives and uses for skills like e.g. PU or Illusionary Persona and to a lesser extend Wardens Feedback even though not a GM.
Boo, that 5001 body length cap…
(edited by Xaylin.1860)
One of the benefits of daze or stun is proc’ing our other interrupt traits. This is going to happen whether or not the daze is turned into a stun, so there’s no argument there.
Looking at it from this perspective, it’s really the best of both worlds.
In general, I agree. A stun is always better than a daze due to the reasons you have stated. CS also offers the best of both worlds since it will at least have an increased daze if the stun does not proc.
However, what about people who would like to play a lockdown builds with dazes (not specifically interrupt). Wink, wink, Chaos.
While CS is guarenteed to do something it also is random and if the stun proccs you will have a shorter duration for your lock down. The enemy might be helpless but you also have to gamble wether to pop your burst or not. You will NEVER know for sure if you will get the stun or the daze.
CI on the other hand requires you to interrupt. It can be very hard against certain classes who have short activatin times. It also will be more difficult to apply in larger fights. But you got a lot more control over the outcome.
The question would be what you perceive to be better for yourself?
And are you good enough at interrupting people to make CI work or not?
Hm, did I suddenly somehow transform into Ross Biddle?
Personally I think CI is better, but there is perspective here. CI is more far reaching as there are more ways to interrupt than daze so there is an advantage there.
CI can be a game changer on big groups, if you can land AoE interrupts. While it sounds hard, the reality is that it’s just not difficult to do in this somewhat mindless skill spamming game. 75% of the time you’re going to play against people like this, maybe higher, AoE locking people down like no tomorrow. The other 25% or less will be the more skilled folks and that’s where you’ll find CI will be a bit less effective. People will see that temporal curtain and dodge. They’ll see that big GS knockback swing and dodge, etc.
The 25% (skilled opponents) though introduces somewhat of a distinction between the two traits. If you assume they will dodge your pushes/pulls, you’re just left with daze. I think it goes without saying that dazes are going to be easier to pull off than push/pull interrupts. So if daze is your only interrupt source, which trait is better?
Whoups. Not sure what happened there. Fixed.
What is the use of +25% daze which can be dodged by the skillful players, too? Your argument holds for MoD and Pistol5. Not so much for Sw4 and F3 which are a lot easier to dodge than GS5.
And still… CS feels a bit shizophrenic. Skills or traits with a certain trade-off (e.g. Healing Surge, Heal vs. Adrenaline) are interesting. But the trade-off should offer a choice and not be applied randomly (50% chance on 1s stun or +25% daze). And even then I’d feel CS being rather underwhelming.
Maybe I will just have to live with me not enjoying the design of CS.
Whoups. Not sure what happened there. Fixed.
Hm still says Ross, oh well.
What is the use of +25% daze which can be dodged by the skillful players, too? Your argument holds for MoD and Pistol5. Not so much for Sw4 and F3 which are a lot easier to dodge than GS5.
And F3 when using IP, and Chaos Storm (RnG, but pretty much not dodgeable if they’re in it).
And still… CS feels a bit shizophrenic. Skills or traits with a certain trade-off (e.g. Healing Surge, Heal vs. Adrenaline) are interesting. But the trade-off should offer a choice and not be applied randomly (50% chance on 1s stun or +25% daze). And even then I’d feel CS being rather underwhelming.
Maybe I will just have to live with me not enjoying the design of CS.
Yeah I hate the RnG factor of the trait, which pretty much made me to this point not really consider it worthy of 30. The extra daze duration is much more intriguing though.
Yeah I hate the RnG factor of the trait, which pretty much made me to this point not really consider it worthy of 30. The extra daze duration is much more intriguing though.
If it only was +x% daze duration it would feel more like a minor, right? A grandmaster trait should offer more than additional daze duration. I would like it as replacement for Wastrels Punishment which currently is broken anyway, isn’kitten
But ANet would better not change Wastrels Punishment into +25% daze duration and leave CS unchanged (50% stun chance without daze duration). This would make it even worse.
[Edit] Kittening isn’t [it]? What’s wrong with you forum?!
In my experience, before the most recent Sigil of Paralyzation patch, we already had what Confounding Suggestions is about to be… Dazes lasted near 2 seconds with the potential of a stun (granted, the stun lasted 2 seconds too x_x).
I miss my 2s dazes.
But that’s the point. Do you really think that 1s stun < 2s daze? A stun will make landing BF a lot easier. But it shouldn’t make any difference for most other skills because they can’t get too far in 2s. Or am I missing some whicked burst combo?
At the same time though, have you guys played around with Confounding Suggestions much? Cuz I haven’t played with Chaotic Interruption for any extended period of time. Maybe we should try eachothers’ builds out this weekend and see if our perspectives change. =P
I tried it for several hours but I had to give up either Bountiful Interruption or Chaotic Dampening. Missing Chaotic Dampening totally messed up my playstyle. Not sure if I can live without BI (…them Might stacks…). Maybe I can. But maybe not if they nerf Critical Infusion and I then need an additional Vigor source.
There are just so many cool traits in Chaos. Only the Adept level is rather lacking.
Maybe we really have to move BI to the Adept level.
Edit: Wastrel’s Punishment should be changed into something like: “Interrupted Skills take twice as long to recharge” (10s rather than 5)
Sounds okay on weapon skills. Sounds gamebreaking on heals.
(edited by Xaylin.1860)
Xaylin: That stun ruins people’s lives. What makes it so good is that the enemy can’t dodge whereas they can dodge dazes.
Me confused. I guess you mean that they can dodge while being dazed?
True. That’s why I used to use a Sw4 + Sw3 + Sw2 combo before they nerfed the sigil.
How do you get the 20 stacks of Vulnerability? By using IP? So probably 25 stacks if you interrupted. But you could as well use CI and gain 24 stacks if you interrupt (only 15 if not… got me there ). Which – again – shows the redundancy of CS and CI. Yes… they have different requirements. But the outcome is boringly similar.