Guild Wars 2

Ryan.8367:

Uhm, Dodges are important for every class the problem is not every class gets access to: Distortion, decoy, blink, torch #4 , veil , mass invis, blurred frenzy , phase retreat, chaos armor , high aegis uptime as defensives and/or ways to avoid taking damage.

If you don’t think it’s just a little kittened up that every class got vigor/endurance regen nerfed except for guardians and mesmers, then I really don’t know what to say.

Since I personally always try to be constructive and objective I really do not appretiate those kind of aggressive and unproductive posts. But I’ll try staying polite despite that unnecessary and obviously biased rage.

I didn’t say dodges are not important for other classes but squishy classes are more reliant on it than others. Furthermore, you have to consider range where Mesmers usually are forced to approach their enemy. There is a very limited ranged pew pew pew. This also is the case for the Guardian. Additionally, the on-dodge trait is very important for several builds which require clones.

There also is a huge difference between a passiv endurance regeneration (or almost “guaranteed” Vigor like Engineers can/could get) and an active one. Although, Vigor on crit is very nice in offensive builds it doesn’t do anything in defensive or support focussed builds. And as I said, it also requires you to constantly attack with a reasonable amount of critical hit chance. Conclusively, it also does not help when disengaging.

That being said, I don’t think Rangers are screwed just because of that endurance reg nerf. They still got other ways to gain endurance or Vigor or to mitigate damage. If someone really got screwed in the Vigor department I’d give my vote to Elementalists.

Got to hate the patch note hysteria some people cause…

Hey everyone. I finally managed to gain access to the forum at my grandparents’ house.
So here’s my opinion about the upcoming patch:

• Mantra Mastery got a really nice buff since we’re now able to use it with DE only using 20 points in dueling. This will make me use mantras a lot more ty anet!
  The radius buff of inspiration XI is also a nice thing.
• VI in illusions " Illusionary Invigoration" has great changes too and since nearly every shatter build I played uses this trait for 20 points the move to master tier isn’t too bad for my gameplay.
• Dazzling glamours for adept tier makes glamour builds having 10 free points for any other trait line than illusions.
• Chaotic Revival… This kind of trait gives me a headache anytime I see it. IMO a trait that can only trigger when you are downed/rallied is a wasted slot. Also there is no point in using that instead of illusionary defense which makes any build a lot better.
• Chaotic Transference got a strong and very usefull buff. There are many Mesmer PU builds that benefit from this trait.
• Illusionist’s Celerity this is the biggest buff in this update. I think now I can set an old rule for my builds that was “always put 5 points in illusions” to “always try to put 15 points in illusions.” Woooow great buff anet!
• Mirror of Anguish is a trait I’d NEVER use it has to compete with bountiful interruption and chaotic dampening and both of them are a far better choice than this trait. Cool down reduction doesn’t make me use it. I think I’d use it if it’d also makes you ignore the stun.
• Confounding Suggestions – This is a trait I first have to try out before I judge it. Sure theory crafting is possible but let’s see how it’ll work ingame.
• Protected Mantras… With Chaotic Transference we could gain 60 conditiondmg while charging so maybe some condition builds that use mantras can benefit from this trait? I don’t know and I usually don’t play condition builds.
• Mender’s Purity: This is… great? Is it just great? No it’s more. IMO it’s more than just great! This trait allowes us to use mantra of revovery instead of mantra of resolve! combinated with 3times cast for mantras this can remove 6 conditions every 12,5s… OP! Also this makes moResolve totally useless. The aoe of the resolve mantra isn’t big enough to use it as support skill and also the cooldown is better! Maybe they should just change the functionality of moResolve or increase the radius. I don’t know… but they really HAVE to buff moResolve when this trait will be buffed like this.

~ Me Games Ma

The change to confounding suggestions is kittened 50% to a RNG stun is not even worth to be a GM trait, Master trait atleast, and now they’re changing it to just daze duration? who will trait 30 points into domination just for getting a daze duration for for a GM trait? /smh

Xaylin.1860:

Ryan.8367:

Uhm, Dodges are important for every class the problem is not every class gets access to: Distortion, decoy, blink, torch #4 , veil , mass invis, blurred frenzy , phase retreat, chaos armor , high aegis uptime as defensives and/or ways to avoid taking damage.

If you don’t think it’s just a little kittened up that every class got vigor/endurance regen nerfed except for guardians and mesmers, then I really don’t know what to say.

I didn’t say dodges are not important for other classes but squishy classes are more reliant on it than others. Furthermore, you have to consider range where Mesmers usually are forced to approach their enemy. There is a very limited ranged pew pew pew. This also is the case for the Guardian. Additionally, the on-dodge trait is very important for several builds which require clones.

I don’t think you understand the fact that mesmers already had more tools to mitigate damage than pretty much any other class in the game, outside of dodging.

There is a very good reason why a bunker condi mesmer is literally the hardest class to kill in a 1v1 by a mile and a half, and it isn’t because it doesn’t have good access to vigor.

But vigor isnt probably the main reason condi mes is hard to kill in 1 vs 1, either.

EverythingEnds.4261:

But vigor isnt probably the main reason condi mes is hard to kill in 1 vs 1, either.

The point being why do they need even greater access to it, relative to other classes.

They are going to move all profession cooldown reduction (weapon skill, etc) to master. So Blade Training will be a master trait in the future.

deathTouch.9706:

EverythingEnds.4261:

But vigor isnt probably the main reason condi mes is hard to kill in 1 vs 1, either.

The point being why do they need even greater access to it, relative to other classes.

lel. I hope this is a joke. Anyone that wants to 1v1 needs to understand that other classes are gonna be imba. If you’re referring to roaming by yourself and you come across another person and want to 1v1, and you notice they’re a condi mesmer? Run away. Condi mesmers really can’t do anything if you decide to just go.

In regards to why do mesmers have such high in-combat mobility and damage mitigation; Mesmers are ridiculously squishy. Without that, they’re pretty much going to blow up in any group engagement.

And taking away the ability for mesmer’s to have vigor doesn’t just hurt condi mesmers, but all mesmer builds. It’s like saying “Itz so unfair dat worriers can b tanky and runz away big distances wif a buzzilion skilz wen they bout 2dieSz”, when warrior weapon mobility allows for zerker warriors to engage and disengage fights.

Well hmm… I might just have to try 0/20/30/0/20, although I’m sure I’d miss my Torch condition removal.

I"m still having a hard time trying to see the niche a mesmer will fill in tPvP. Thieves still are far superior roamers with a self-portal on a short cooldown and group stealth on a shorter cooldown.
Warriors bring better survivability and better stuns.
Rangers bring better group buffs and battle rez.

What will go Down to adept when blade training is a master trait? Would be funny if It’d be DE :P

Me Games Ma.8426:

What will go Down to adept when blade training is a master trait? Would be funny if It’d be DE :P

O_o

Blade Training? Did I miss something?

On my iphone, so I won’t address everything but I want to make a quick comment on the Mender’s Purity change. First, the change is a very nice. Just remember, Mender’s Purity has an internal cool down of 10 secs. So this doesn’t necessarily make MoR more viable in pvp.

And I agree with Chaos on the CS change . Still not worth a GM slot, but it’d be a good replacement for Wastrel’s.

Simonoly.4352:

I was kind of expecting to see Critical Infusion and Prismatic Understanding toned down also, but I guess there’s still time for that.

Why on earth would you want that.

StickerHappy.8052:

The change to confounding suggestions is kittened 50% to a RNG stun is not even worth to be a GM trait, Master trait atleast, and now they’re changing it to just daze duration? who will trait 30 points into domination just for getting a daze duration for for a GM trait? /smh

if that trait stacks with the mesmer runes it will be freaking scary

Thedenofsin.7340:

I"m still having a hard time trying to see the niche a mesmer will fill in tPvP. Thieves still are far superior roamers with a self-portal on a short cooldown and group stealth on a shorter cooldown.
Warriors bring better survivability and better stuns.
Rangers bring better group buffs and battle rez.

Reflection placed in the right spot can be devastating for the other team or at the very least force them to switch weapons/stop attacking. A well used signet of inspiration can be used after say Lyssa rune proc to great effect. Mesmers IMO don’t bring just boons, damage, conditions or CC, they bring pressure. Everything about their skills tells enemies to stop attacking. Reflection, confusion, mass dazes etc. Bountiful interrupt+Diversion+Signet of inspiration when used in a group can grant some serious boon sharing though.

SlimChance.6593:

On my iphone, so I won’t address everything but I want to make a quick comment on the Mender’s Purity change. First, the change is a very nice. Just remember, Mender’s Purity has an internal cool down of 10 secs. So this doesn’t necessarily make MoR more viable in pvp.

And I agree with Chaos on the CS change . Still not worth a GM slot, but it’d be a good replacement for Wastrel’s.

Since when does mender’s purity have an internal cooldown of 10s? Did I miss a patch or am I mistaking some traits? Are you sure? I’m really confused and can’t even test it since I’m not at home. My only source is the wiki and there’s nothing written about a cooldown.

Me Games Ma.8426:

SlimChance.6593:

On my iphone, so I won’t address everything but I want to make a quick comment on the Mender’s Purity change. First, the change is a very nice. Just remember, Mender’s Purity has an internal cool down of 10 secs. So this doesn’t necessarily make MoR more viable in pvp.

And I agree with Chaos on the CS change . Still not worth a GM slot, but it’d be a good replacement for Wastrel’s.

Since when does mender’s purity have an internal cooldown of 10s? Did I miss a patch or am I mistaking some traits? Are you sure? I’m really confused and can’t even test it since I’m not at home. My only source is the wiki and there’s nothing written about a cooldown.

It doesn’t. They are wrong.

Good bye Mantra of Resolve. Just need Mantra of Recovery… toooo easy. Mantras FTW

lujate.5432:

Me Games Ma.8426:

What will go Down to adept when blade training is a master trait? Would be funny if It’d be DE :P

O_o

Blade Training? Did I miss something?

Someone in this thread wrote that they want to put all weapon traits on master tier. Some posts above mine. I don’t know what’s true about this. My post was only fun

Me Games Ma.8426:

lujate.5432:

Me Games Ma.8426:

What will go Down to adept when blade training is a master trait? Would be funny if It’d be DE :P

O_o

Blade Training? Did I miss something?

Someone in this thread wrote that they want to put all weapon traits on master tier. Some posts above mine. I don’t know what’s true about this. My post was only fun

Moving Blade Training up to Master would hurt, because they most certainly won’t move DE down.

Noss.4105:

DavyMcB.1603:

I don’t think mesmer will get perma vigor nerf. I mean, yes they have perma vigor but that means you have to boost up a lot of crit chance, pretty much running zerker to get perma vigor and it’s a huge tradeoff. If you take a look an engineer they can gain perma vigor with sacrificing only 20 points which go into defensive build anyway. In addition, mesmers have to constantly engage in fighting to get the so called perma vigor. Engineers get in on demand.

Different.

IMO mesmers have better vigor trait. It’s more passive so you don’t have to worry about it.
Your perspective is pretty biased anyways. Engineers get perma vigor for only 20 points? And mesmers get it with 5 points.
Also look at what you get by putting 20 points in dueling, like most mesmers do.

Swiftness and vigor on kit swap is sweet, but it does cost a lot.

Oh, and you don’t need full zerker to have as high vigor uptime as engineers have.

Do tell me why that is biased, I’m sure I was certainly pointing out facts. Most engineers use kits anyway so I don’t really see much of a trade off. Zerk engies run nades/bomb, condi engi runs nades/bomb, flamethrower run.. well flamethrower, elixir gun is also a kit. They’re all kits. Having vigor on demand means you can bring it up anywhere, anytime. Mesmer vigor relies on hitting an opponent. That’s a totally different condition to be met. Mesmers have to make a build for it to make that trait reliable — hello 50% crit chance, zerker. Engineers don’t need that condition, instead they can put traits into what go with defensive stat anyway. Even if both of them use rabid, engineers will still have better advantage due to inherently being tougher. Invigorating speed is in traitline which supports condition build as well. When a mesmer is trying to runaway, he needs to stop hitting -> no more vigor. When an engi swap to Tool Kit for running, he gets swiftness + vigor and can still keep them up while running.

Also, engineers already have much higher survivability even without vigor. It’s just an icing on the cake. On the other hand if you remove vigor from mesmers, they will be crippled.. hard. Look at it as a whole class mechanic, not just one single trait.

I main both Mesmer and Engineers. Totally different scenarios when it comes to vigor.

You also seem to run both engineers and mesmers, how could you not see the difference?

Your turn..

It’s about time we get alternatives to deceptive evasion, too.

Hi Jon,

A little clarity on the issues with the scepter auto attack:

1) It’s too slow. The third part of the chain is slower than the other stages. The projectile is slow. The chain doesn’t progress until it the projectile hits. It’s just too slow.
2) The clones are useless. They do nothing but stand there and use a useless attack.
3) By using the auto attack, said clones then overwrite actually useful clones (staff/sword) and worse, phantasms. This means, in a phantasm or staff condi build using the auto attack can often reduce your sustained dps. I can understand you guys not wanting to make auto attacks strong so we don’t have even more classes like rangers spamming 1, but to make the auto attack so functionally weak that it is almost wrong to use it… that is a problem.

The ‘tricky’ mindset is fundamentally holding this weapon back. Confusing mob AI or making players wonder what is going on seems a strange focus for the auto attack. Please just reconsider this alltogether, the only synnergy it has is with clone death traits – but the replacement of decent clones with scepter clones and how slow this is makes it not worth it.

People have been asking to make the chain more efficient (attack rate) and add a condition to the third part of the chain so the clones are not useless. The additional DPS from a single condition applied from a third part of the chain will not be high. The main point is adding a benefit to the clones.

Can I also point out a couple of other points that are not responded to:

- iMage (torch phantasm) is almost a waste of a skill. 3s of confusion is useless in PVE, in pvp it is mediocre and no where near the damage of other phantasms. Staff clones apply more pressure. The retail isn’t exactly game breaking.
- Scepter 3 is really awkward to hit. This is due to the beam requiring a ‘charge’ up time, before the channeled attack hits. This combination of a charge up with a channel makes it really awkward, especially for such a long attack.
- The cooldown on Blinding Befuddlement is too long. 5s cooldown, on a master trait, for only a 4s confusion, when mesmers can’t spam blinds, is just bad.
- Staff projectile is too slow. In PVE you can barely hit mobs with this by the time other players have allready killed them. The attack rate is fine, but the projectile speed needs a buff.
- We need some sort of out of combat boost. A movement signet for example. Having to equip focus – which is situational at best, for swiftness is not cool. We may have good in combat mobility but out side of it, it’s just so painful.
- Phantasmal haste doesn’t work. It’s supposed to reduce phantasm attack rates by 20% but in reality it doesn’t reduce some at all.

Signet mesmer is unlikely to happen due to the nature of our signets – apart from Domination they are all situational, and midnight is medicore at best.

Possible ideas for Mimic:

~Conjure a clone that that has more hp than others and mimics your moves exactly(IE tumbles when you tumble, casts different skills just without the damage portion like other clones)

Or to stay at least close to the current idea
~Cast and receive a 4 second boon that reduces damage by a decent amount and apply a marking condition to your current target. When the 4 seconds is up all damage you took during those 4 seconds is also applied to your target. Think share the pain.

Just an out of the blue idea.
~Mimic your opponents abilities. Temporarily grant one use of one of your opponents utility skills at random. Basically mimic would then change to the icon of one of your targets currently selected utility skills at random and then you can use it as your own once. Possibly reduce the effect of stolen utilities.

deathTouch.9706:

Xaylin.1860:

Ryan.8367:

Uhm, Dodges are important for every class the problem is not every class gets access to: Distortion, decoy, blink, torch #4 , veil , mass invis, blurred frenzy , phase retreat, chaos armor , high aegis uptime as defensives and/or ways to avoid taking damage.

If you don’t think it’s just a little kittened up that every class got vigor/endurance regen nerfed except for guardians and mesmers, then I really don’t know what to say.

I didn’t say dodges are not important for other classes but squishy classes are more reliant on it than others. Furthermore, you have to consider range where Mesmers usually are forced to approach their enemy. There is a very limited ranged pew pew pew. This also is the case for the Guardian. Additionally, the on-dodge trait is very important for several builds which require clones.

I don’t think you understand the fact that mesmers already had more tools to mitigate damage than pretty much any other class in the game, outside of dodging.

There is a very good reason why a bunker condi mesmer is literally the hardest class to kill in a 1v1 by a mile and a half, and it isn’t because it doesn’t have good access to vigor.

I exclusively play Mesmer in PvP so I’m well aware of the classes’ capabilities. I’m also running an interrupt build which means I will have to know my opponents as good as possible to be successful. I might not know every trick or build but I’d say I’m quite well educated class-wise.

Ryan is referring to a very specific set of skills which in no way is representative of the builds Mesmers run (and that high amount of Aegis statement… phew) . It indeed has many options for damage mitigation. However, doesn’t it make you suspicious that you do not see Mesmers with this build flodding PvP and WvW if it really was that overpowered?

In general, Mesmers have a rather indirect damage mitigation (e.g. movement or stealth). This makes capping points in PvP hard and Mesmer bunkers probably less effective than other classes. Furthermore, the damage of such a build is okay but not very impressive. In WvW the damage can be increased by quite a bit by food etc. But as someone else pointed out: You can just walk away and the Mesmer might not even be able to kill you.

Most other builds I personally know of do not run all of those skills combined. Because Mesmers can’t actually afford to do so. Otherwise this build would be a lot more common. Most builds only bring 1 or 2 stealth skills which at the same time might be your stunbreaker or sole condition cleanse. There is a huge trade off for using those skills. And if you get hit, you will get hit hard. Mesmers aren’t that great at healing back up within a fight. That’s why many builds rely on good dodging. And if you want to use your shatters you are even more reliant on dodging because of Deceptive Evasion. No clone, no shatter, no happy butterflies.

I’m not saying that Mesmers deserve to have better endurance regeneration than other classes. But Mesmers certainly are a class which need it more than others. I also feel that ANet made a wrong call on the Elementalist. Moving the trait to Air or Fire might would have been a wiser choice. But I’m so tired of arguments which basically break down to “They took my toy, so others do not deserve to keep theirs!”. And that’s basically what is going on right now. Everyone crying for nerfing Guardians and Mesmers endurance regeneration because theirs got nerfed.

Sensotix.4106:

StickerHappy.8052:

The change to confounding suggestions is kittened 50% to a RNG stun is not even worth to be a GM trait, Master trait atleast, and now they’re changing it to just daze duration? who will trait 30 points into domination just for getting a daze duration for for a GM trait? /smh

if that trait stacks with the mesmer runes it will be freaking scary

Before October 15th you could just use the Sigil of Paralyzation for getting 2s dazes. Nobody cared (or knew?) about that back then.

I would rather love to see this:

Mesmer
‘’ Domination XII – Confounding Suggestions. Changed to increase daze duration by 25%. ’’

I’d love to see this trait totally different, which is:
‘’ Domination XII – Confounding Suggestions. This trait has a new effect. Makes Mantra of Distraction area of effect with a radius of 300 around the selected target. Dazes up to 5 targets. ’’

The reason I would think this is good, is because mesmer is lacking WvW builds, especially on bigger scale such as raids up to 30man.
Even though mesmer got a lot support, they’re still mainly chosen to be veilbots. While as I would love to see mesmer becoming a much more useful class. Giving the ability to ‘’aoe interrupt’’, will help this concept a lot.

JonPeters.5630:

Overall I think this a good small step for a profession that has a lot of roles it can fill fairly uniquely. I think this might give us 3 strong mesmer build archetypes.

1) Shatter
2) Phantasm
3) Mantra

Jon — thanks so much for engaging the mesmer community. Really speaks volumes about your team’s commitment to game and players alike.

My one bit of feedback (in addition to my agreement with you about the scepter) is that I’m not really sure there can be a “mantra build.” Mantras are much better used to fill out holes or add utility to other builds, as a build solely with mantas is missing out on so much of what make the mesmer a mesmer.

Instead, I see three main builds—or at least what should be aspired to—as:

1) Phantasm
– Direct Damage
– Condition
2) Shatter
– Direct Damage
– Condition
3) Clone Spamming
– Direct Damage
– Condition

This paradigm gives mesmers six distinct builds (plus numerous hybrids) that can still be tailored in various ways (damage, support, aoe, single target, healing, etc.). But these three seem to be the main categories.

As of right now, here is (I think) how things stand:

Direct Damage Phantasm Build: Viable
Condition Phantasm Build: Not at all

Direct Damage Shatter Build: Viable
Condition Shatter Build: Not viable

Direct Damage Clone Spammer: Viable
Condition Clone Spammer: Viable

Right now, four of the six are playable. If all six options could be viable, it would add significant diversity. Mantras can help by providing some of these builds parts of what they are missing, but I don’t think too many changes would be needed to make all six possible.

And really, only two things would need to be changed to make this happen.

1) Condition Damage Phantasms. This is a must, and would add a ton of diversity to phantasm builds. Torch/Staff are the most likely candidates.

2) Condition-based Shatters. Since confusion is no longer really viable, F2 needs to be buffed, and perhaps a trait added that gives F1 some condition oomph (bleed, torment, etc.).

Honestly, mesmer is in a good place. A few changes (like the ones you are already working on) will go so far in giving mesmers a ton of viable builds.

Thanks again.

tl/dr: mantra build shouldn’t really be a category of its own. Instead, focus on improving condition phantasms and condition shatters. otherwise, great work.

Hey Jon, ty for responding to my er.. response to the changes. I’ve been playing lockdown-oriented Mesmer exclusively over the last couple months and I can honestly say that it’s already pretty much there as a viable playstyle and just needs a some slight alterations, same could be said for support. I don’t think we need very big changes so much as some adjustments to what we already have.

I’ll use Chaos Armor for example, it’s an almost Mesmer-exclusive aura that has the potential to be a fantastic control/support ability and yet it’s (the Ethereal + Leap/Blast Combo) always been relatively lackluster…. and then it got nerfed. The bright colors and pulsing orb are great for impressing noobs, but the truth is that Chaos Armor doesn’t offer any kind of safety or damage mitigation on cast; it only offers the chance of getting protection after taking a hit or two. (And even then the odds are stacked against you. Regeneration and to a lesser extent Swiftness offer VERY little possible damage mitigation. 1 stack of confusion is pointless, please make this 3-4 atleast. Because of this, it ends up always getting picked next to last on the aura team along with poor crappy Fire Aura. If the boons were changed to something like 5s Protection (thats what the tooltip says, currently bugged and only gives a forgettable 3 seconds)/ 3s Vigor/1-2s Stability (don’t cringe, it’d actually make Chaos Armor and Mesmer more desirebale in WvW zergs too)

Along with that Staff is close to perfect too, and would make an excellent support/condition/control weapon if the Winds of Chaos autoattack didn’t apply Vulnerability. Please, literally any other condition would be a huge and valuable improvement. 1 stack of Vulnerability is nothing but a lost gamble. Additionally, if the Fury was given an extra 1 second, it’d be perfect.

One of the problems with the proposed changes is that we get buffs to traits that no Mesmer should uses, even with the buffs. Chaotic Revival doesn’t give nearly enough benefit to be worth it unless it was either changed to provide AoE Chaos Armor on rezz, AoE stealth for 2s on Rezz, or turned into an Interrupt trait that provided AoE Chaos Armor on interrupt for say.. 5 seconds on a 15 second CD. (Chaotic … Intervention!) Mirror of Anguish is another trait that, even on a 60 second cooldown wouldn’t be worth it unless it affected enemies around the target aswell. Mirroring 1 CC saves you from nothing. AoE Mirroring 1 CC makes you valuable to big battles.

Speaking of Lockdown, I think that many agree the interrupt traits are a very fun playstyle, and should be expanded upon. Consider adding interrupt traits that reward skillful use of interrutps and punish the opponent (like Chaotic Interruption)that could function sort-of like how Hexes did in GW1. Our 25 point Grandmaster in Domination is pretty forgettable, and either needs to be doubles or changed. A change like “Dazes last 20% longer” or “Refresh Phantasm recharges on Interrupt (30-40 second CD)” would make the trait investment worthwhile without being overpowered IMO.

Confounding Suggestions is a good-ish trait as it is, and if it were to be improved, the only change I’d ask is that it extends the duration of stuns around 20%. We only have 2 sources of stuns in the trait and our Signet of Domination. A 20% increase, even with Sigil of Paralysis would have our stuns as nearly long-lasting as they were pre-patch (which led to about 6 second lockdowns every 30 seconds) without increasing the daze duration and making it too OP.

Furious Interruption doesn’t deserve to be a Grandmaster, and even in the Master tier it can’t compete with Deceptive Evasion and it’s current state can barely compete with Phantasmal Fury. If it also granted the Mesmer 3 seconds of Fury for the duration of the quickness, THEN it’d be worth taking note.
Or maybe, replace it with a trait like “Phantasmal Intervention – Phantasms attack on interrupt”? I mean.. it is Christmas Winterday, right?

If you read this far down, I really appreciate it man. I really think MEsmer already has almost all the ingrediets it needs to deliver on some strong, viable shut down. (an article on it here: Lockdown – Making People Hate You And if any of these proposed changes make it into the patch, maybe I’ll forgive out mods for not Stickying the Mesmer guide that’s been here for a month that I spent like 8 gad-kitten hours on! /grumble

My personal feeling for confounding suggestions is that it needs some sort of additional effect. Something along the lines of…

Increase duration of dazes by 25%. On interrupt, disable the skill for an additional 3 seconds.

JonPeters.5630:

I think the mesmer discussion has been pretty positive overall and productive but I wanted to bring up some points that I am seeing and some new ones as well.

Scepter
Scepter is still missing something but we don’t want to overload the autoattack as we think that promotes more mindless play and are trying to move away from builds that focus so much on the “1” skill. I feel like that scepter should be the tricksy defender that can stop enemies from attacking and defend allies, but maybe it’s single target nature is keeping that from working.

Confounding Suggestions
We were hoping this change would improve this. I’m mostly seeing people saying they liked the old one. That will certainly be a topic of discussion early next week so I would love to hear some opinions either way in case there is a split.

Mimic
Last thought. This skill is for almost all intents and purposes just not working, but is causing some broken behavior with certain bosses. I would like to replace it with a complete redesign and am open to discussion on that as well.

Overall I think this a good small step for a profession that has a lot of roles it can fill fairly uniquely. I think this might give us 3 strong mesmer build archetypes.

1) Shatter
2) Phantasm
3) Mantra

I think right behind those are the interrupt shutdown mesmer and the signet mesmer, so future suggestions towards those are appreciated as well.

Thanks,

Jon

Scepter Autoattack

I absolutely agree that this shouldn’t be just another one of the spammy autoattacks in the game, and for that reason I would say that there really shouldn’t be any conditions (damaging at least) attached to it.

That being said, it IS really weak, and needs to have some work done on it.

Confounding Suggestions

Some people really did prefer the old one for the stun conversion, others prefer the new one simply because it’s a 100% change, I’m not too much a fan of either. I think it’s still a very weak trait for a grandmaster. It doesn’t seem to do a whole lot. Perhaps work in an additional effect to interrupts with it?

Mimic

I personally love this skill, but it is a bit broken. I’d love to hear what sort of direction you’re looking at taking with it.

Build Archetypes

The current build archetypes are as follows, in no particular order

1. Shatter
2. Phantasm
3. Condition Based
4. Lockdown/Interrupt

Note that I didn’t include mantras or signets. Neither of these are even close to being viable right now. Signet builds aren’t really viable simply because the traits are far too chaotic. They’re in bad spots, and none of them are really good. Mantras have some strong trait choices, but the problem is with the skills themselves. There are too many drawbacks to recharging them in combat, and that’s not a sacrifice that the vast majority of builds can handle.

Also, its refreshing to have a dev come chatticus with us here in the class forums. Was tired of Mesmers getting bashed in the PvP forums trying to get some attention to our issues. Ty for taking the time,

Scepter 1 should simply be not affected by other projectiles of itself. It waits until the projectil lands wich makes it even unable to use the time warp (just the animation is faster, it still wait till the projectile lands to continue the chain of 1).
→ faster attacks

Also if scepter 1 would stack vulnerability or heal, or buff or anything, the clones would be more useul than just stacking nothing or if traited bleeding on crits.

About Mimic: The skill is awesome but very frustrating if you wanna catch something and you simply get knockdowned. It also should prevent damage. Right not you absorb a projectile and take damage and shoot it back → a poor version of reflection.
→ stability?
→ prevent damage

Also it would be awesome to not reflect projectiles after. It should absorb everything and unleash the power on a chosen target. You would be able to redirect damage. AWESOME guys … :P

I would like to see the symmetry “Allies get X, Enemies get inverse X” we see on many Mesmer skills get extended to veil…

Veil: additionally, Enemies passing through this zone gain revealed for 4 seconds.

This could create some interesting counter-play not just against Thieves, but against other Mesmers (by dropping your veil square in the path of advance from theirs…)

JonPeters.5630:

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

Understood, thanks as usual Jon. Sounds like quite a mission to pull off though, as you have a lot to balance.

Don’t forget the mesmer community here is really friendly compared to some of the other class forums, and would always be happy to give ideas or feedback.

Bunda.2691:

JonPeters.5630:

Overall I think this a good small step for a profession that has a lot of roles it can fill fairly uniquely. I think this might give us 3 strong mesmer build archetypes.

1) Shatter
2) Phantasm
3) Mantra

Jon — thanks so much for engaging the mesmer community. Really speaks volumes about your team’s commitment to game and players alike.

My one bit of feedback (in addition to my agreement with you about the scepter) is that I’m not really sure there can be a “mantra build.” Mantras are much better used to fill out holes or add utility to other builds, as a build solely with mantas is missing out on so much of what make the mesmer a mesmer.

Instead, I see three main builds—or at least what should be aspired to—as:

1) Phantasm
– Direct Damage
– Condition
2) Shatter
– Direct Damage
– Condition
3) Clone Spamming
– Direct Damage
– Condition

This paradigm gives mesmers six distinct builds (plus numerous hybrids) that can still be tailored in various ways (damage, support, aoe, single target, healing, etc.). But these three seem to be the main categories.

As of right now, here is (I think) how things stand:

Direct Damage Phantasm Build: Viable
Condition Phantasm Build: Not at all

Direct Damage Shatter Build: Viable
Condition Shatter Build: Not viable

Direct Damage Clone Spammer: Viable
Condition Clone Spammer: Viable

Right now, four of the six are playable. If all six options could be viable, it would add significant diversity. Mantras can help by providing some of these builds parts of what they are missing, but I don’t think too many changes would be needed to make all six possible.

And really, only two things would need to be changed to make this happen.

1) Condition Damage Phantasms. This is a must, and would add a ton of diversity to phantasm builds. Torch/Staff are the most likely candidates.

2) Condition-based Shatters. Since confusion is no longer really viable, F2 needs to be buffed, and perhaps a trait added that gives F1 some condition oomph (bleed, torment, etc.).

Honestly, mesmer is in a good place. A few changes (like the ones you are already working on) will go so far in giving mesmers a ton of viable builds.

Thanks again.

tl/dr: mantra build shouldn’t really be a category of its own. Instead, focus on improving condition phantasms and condition shatters. otherwise, great work.

I think this is a good start for small scale viability. For larger scale, I’d like to see 2 more things.

• Make the ICD on Confusing Enchantments 1-2 second instead of 5. This punishes people for not paying attention to AoEs (which are bright pink and obvious) This change would decently unnerf the WvW Confusion builds that were destroyed by a fairly brutal damage nerf+large reduction in application ability that high Mesmers substantially harder then any other class.

• In general reduce Mesmer reliance on RNG to apply conditions. Compared to most classes Mesmers are substantially relying on RNG effects to apply boons / conditions which make it hard to have a build that you control rather then being controlled by a RNG.

• For example, make scepter 1 dmg – 1 bleed – 1 torment (no clone) with the same cast speed and suddenly a Mesmer has a weapon with steady single target condition pressure that can work with iMage or Scepter 3 to make people need to think about how they want to manage conditions.

JonPeters.5630:

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

An interesting effect that fits within that criteria might be for it to spread one condition already on the target to a random nearby ally of the target – essentially a 1 condition, 1 target micro-burst version of Epidemic.

It never puts additional pressure on the primary target, but it can force opponents to be leery about clumping up around a potential condition donor and lets the clones work much more synergistically with your own conditions and any being applied by your allies also.

JonPeters.5630:

I think the mesmer discussion has been pretty positive overall and productive but I wanted to bring up some points that I am seeing and some new ones as well.

Scepter
Scepter is still missing something but we don’t want to overload the autoattack as we think that promotes more mindless play and are trying to move away from builds that focus so much on the “1” skill. I feel like that scepter should be the tricksy defender that can stop enemies from attacking and defend allies, but maybe it’s single target nature is keeping that from working.

Confounding Suggestions
We were hoping this change would improve this. I’m mostly seeing people saying they liked the old one. That will certainly be a topic of discussion early next week so I would love to hear some opinions either way in case there is a split.

Mimic
Last thought. This skill is for almost all intents and purposes just not working, but is causing some broken behavior with certain bosses. I would like to replace it with a complete redesign and am open to discussion on that as well.

Overall I think this a good small step for a profession that has a lot of roles it can fill fairly uniquely. I think this might give us 3 strong mesmer build archetypes.

1) Shatter
2) Phantasm
3) Mantra

I think right behind those are the interrupt shutdown mesmer and the signet mesmer, so future suggestions towards those are appreciated as well.

Thanks,

Jon

I understand not wanting to overload the autoattack, but, the way I see it, you can’t really compensate for an autoattack’s weakness using the other skills in a set. IMO, it’s critically important that the autoattacks on all weapons be carefully balanced against one another and allowed to act as the primary source of sustained DPS, with the other skills being more specialized and tactical in nature. Weapons with weak autoattacks are going to feel much weaker overall than weapons with strong autoattacks, and there really isn’t that much that can be done about that short of making every other skill egregiously OP (which would just be awkward and silly). This has been the main problem with several weapon (mostly ranged) sets since launch including Mesmer/Guardian Scepter, Thief/Engi Pistol, Warrior/Ranger Longbow, etc.

I would strongly, strongly recommend doing a review pass of every autoattack in the game and making sure they are all performing in roughly the same league with one another, then focus on playing around with other skills. Buffing Vital Shot would magically fix most of P/P’s (and P/D’s) problems that people have complained about since launch that the ‘buff’ to Body Shot predictably didn’t resolve.

Everything sounds awesome but I am still waiting for the day when they say “Hey guys sorry we really made Vengeful Retribution useless, we are sorry and are going to revert it back to its old 100% up time ways.”

I think we have a pretty good understanding of the mesmer scepter auto attack problem. I would really like to design a chain of auto attacks here that end with something good, and then allow the clones generated from scepter to also do that thing. That being said, we are trying to avoid just condition spam overload with that weapon because that would be greatly compounded by clones spamming as well.

What if it were a bouncing damage/heal? It would be a maybe 2-3 bouncer, like their other bounce attacks, that damages enemies and heals allies. The balance point would be that one Mesmer would generate negligible heals, but a Mesmer and three clones could deal decent healing to players near the target, especially if they geared for it. That could make for a solid Mesmer healer build.

Einlanzer.1627:

JonPeters.5630:

I think the mesmer discussion has been pretty positive overall and productive but I wanted to bring up some points that I am seeing and some new ones as well.

Scepter
Scepter is still missing something but we don’t want to overload the autoattack as we think that promotes more mindless play and are trying to move away from builds that focus so much on the “1” skill. I feel like that scepter should be the tricksy defender that can stop enemies from attacking and defend allies, but maybe it’s single target nature is keeping that from working.

Confounding Suggestions
We were hoping this change would improve this. I’m mostly seeing people saying they liked the old one. That will certainly be a topic of discussion early next week so I would love to hear some opinions either way in case there is a split.

Mimic
Last thought. This skill is for almost all intents and purposes just not working, but is causing some broken behavior with certain bosses. I would like to replace it with a complete redesign and am open to discussion on that as well.

Overall I think this a good small step for a profession that has a lot of roles it can fill fairly uniquely. I think this might give us 3 strong mesmer build archetypes.

1) Shatter
2) Phantasm
3) Mantra

I think right behind those are the interrupt shutdown mesmer and the signet mesmer, so future suggestions towards those are appreciated as well.

Thanks,

Jon

I understand not wanting to overload the autoattack, but, the way I see it, you can’t really compensate for an autoattack’s weakness using the other skills in a set. IMO, it’s critically important that the autoattacks on all weapons be carefully balanced against one another and allowed to act as the primary source of sustained DPS, with the other skills being more specialized and tactical in nature. Weapons with weak autoattacks are going to feel much weaker overall than weapons with strong autoattacks, and there really isn’t that much that can be done about that short of making every other skill egregiously OP (which would just be awkward and silly). This has been the main problem with several weapon (mostly ranged) sets since launch including Mesmer/Guardian Scepter, Thief/Engi Pistol, Warrior/Ranger Longbow, etc.

I would strongly, strongly recommend doing a review pass of every autoattack in the game and making sure they are all performing in roughly the same league with one another, then focus on playing around with other skills. Buffing Vital Shot would magically fix most of P/P’s (and P/D’s) problems that people have complained about since launch that the ‘buff’ to Body Shot predictably didn’t resolve.

I actually find mesmer to be the one class where the auto attack does not have to be the primary source of DPS, due to the fact that we cannot spec out of illusions, and illusions is the main damage source.

Not going to discuss actual viability of mantra builds, but if any class is going to pull off using mantra builds, it has to be the mesmer, because we don’t need to race against the clock with auto-attacks, unlike other classes where any moment not spent attacking is time spent not fighting.

Heinel.6548:

Einlanzer.1627:

JonPeters.5630:

I think the mesmer discussion has been pretty positive overall and productive but I wanted to bring up some points that I am seeing and some new ones as well.

Scepter
Scepter is still missing something but we don’t want to overload the autoattack as we think that promotes more mindless play and are trying to move away from builds that focus so much on the “1” skill. I feel like that scepter should be the tricksy defender that can stop enemies from attacking and defend allies, but maybe it’s single target nature is keeping that from working.

Confounding Suggestions
We were hoping this change would improve this. I’m mostly seeing people saying they liked the old one. That will certainly be a topic of discussion early next week so I would love to hear some opinions either way in case there is a split.

Mimic
Last thought. This skill is for almost all intents and purposes just not working, but is causing some broken behavior with certain bosses. I would like to replace it with a complete redesign and am open to discussion on that as well.

Overall I think this a good small step for a profession that has a lot of roles it can fill fairly uniquely. I think this might give us 3 strong mesmer build archetypes.

1) Shatter
2) Phantasm
3) Mantra

I think right behind those are the interrupt shutdown mesmer and the signet mesmer, so future suggestions towards those are appreciated as well.

Thanks,

Jon

I understand not wanting to overload the autoattack, but, the way I see it, you can’t really compensate for an autoattack’s weakness using the other skills in a set. IMO, it’s critically important that the autoattacks on all weapons be carefully balanced against one another and allowed to act as the primary source of sustained DPS, with the other skills being more specialized and tactical in nature. Weapons with weak autoattacks are going to feel much weaker overall than weapons with strong autoattacks, and there really isn’t that much that can be done about that short of making every other skill egregiously OP (which would just be awkward and silly). This has been the main problem with several weapon (mostly ranged) sets since launch including Mesmer/Guardian Scepter, Thief/Engi Pistol, Warrior/Ranger Longbow, etc.

I would strongly, strongly recommend doing a review pass of every autoattack in the game and making sure they are all performing in roughly the same league with one another, then focus on playing around with other skills. Buffing Vital Shot would magically fix most of P/P’s (and P/D’s) problems that people have complained about since launch that the ‘buff’ to Body Shot predictably didn’t resolve.

I actually find mesmer to be the one class where the auto attack does not have to be the primary source of DPS, due to the fact that we cannot spec out of illusions, and illusions is the main damage source.

Not going to discuss actual viability of mantra builds, but if any class is going to pull off using mantra builds, it has to be the mesmer, because we don’t need to race against the clock with auto-attacks, unlike other classes where any moment not spent attacking is time spent not fighting.

Perhaps that’s true of the Mesmer and only the Mesmer, but I’d still argue it’s healthier to have a paradigm of equivalency among autoattacks (taking illusions into account as well of course) than it is to allow the autoattack to remain weak and attempt to compensate with other skills.

For Mantras, I’d love to see a few more issues addressed. The first, as folks have said, is the cast time. It’s pretty boring when you have more than one mantra equipped… I’d love to either have mantra charging be a ticking channel (so if you cast for half the time and get interrupted you still gain 1 charge) or charging one mantra adds a charge to a random other mantra.

On a similar note, Mantra of Pain could use a bit of love now that the others have gotten boosts. Maybe it’s a good opportunity for a small AoE?

Regarding the builds that Jon posted, all three can be unreliable in large-scale WvW. Phantasms and Shatters are great in small teams/roaming, but the huge amount of ambient AoE makes pet survival unreliable, even with the traits and signet. Further, clone-death builds are tricky due to lag issues. I’d love to see some ideas to help bring some popular small-scale mesmer build options back into large-scale WvW.

Please note: I’m not good at balance, but I like thinking outside boxes. Some of this may be really, really foolish.

JonPeters.5630:

Overall I think this a good small step for a profession that has a lot of roles it can fill fairly uniquely. I think this might give us 3 strong mesmer build archetypes.

1) Shatter
2) Phantasm
3) Mantra

I think right behind those are the interrupt shutdown mesmer and the signet mesmer, so future suggestions towards those are appreciated as well.

1) Interruption is problematic due to two main things: Defiant in PvE and the five-second-recharge time for interrupted skills. Make Confounding Suggestions increase the recharge time of any skill you interrupt dramatically alongside the minor daze duration boost. Make them feel it when a Mesmer shuts them down. Also, have it shred several Defiant stacks per every interrupt you spend.

2) For the Signet Mesmer to be viable, signets have to stop relying on stat buffs. Mesmer utilities are godlike in power and control, and they need to have more elements like Plague Signet or Signet of Inspiration that provide more options, rather than just boost stats.

Signet of Domination: when you successfully interrupt a skill or strip a defiant stack with one of your abilities, that ability recharges faster. Activated ability is fine.
Signet of Inspiration: along with the random bonus, improves boon duration. The active ability is wonderful as it is.
Signet of Midnight: every X seconds, transfers a condition from yourself to one of your clones. Activate to gain stealth.
Signet of Illusions: your illusions cannot take more than 20% of their health in damage from a single hit. Recharge all your illusion summoning skills on activation.

Also, you should really, really, really consider allowing Signet of Inspiration to default to granting swiftness outside of combat. The random boon thing is cool in battle, but there is only one thing we want outside of combat, and that is a good dose of GO FAST. You don’t seem to mind permanent swiftness on other classes, so it’s only fair that everyone gets their own helping of GO FAST to make it even.

3) Balance must address the simple fact that Mantras don’t have a reason for the charge mechanism. The old “these skills are instant cast, so they have to pay a cost” line from when they were revealed in beta doesn’t hold up. Guardians don’t need to charge up their shouts to gain instant cast stability or condition removal, and I don’t see the Elementalists paying a cost to activate their arcane abilities either.

Likewise, Mantras don’t have a specific tactical niche. Two of them are now support powers, albeit with a terrible radius vastly outclassed by the support powers of other classes, and two of them are single target damage/control attacks. Mantras don’t have a “thing”.

If you want mantras to be the source of Mesmer support, it’s simple. Make dazing the foe into a Manipulation and make Mantras a pulse ability that buffs all allies nearby the Mesmer or her clones. That will give it a cool illusionist tweak that solves the radius problem, and it will make the charge mechanic the source of the Mantra’s cool powers, rather than a royal pain in the posterior. In other words…

Psychic Distraction: daze the foe. Manipulation. Give them a pinch when they least expect it.
Mantra of Concentration: the unwavering focus of one mind can cast aside distractions for the many. Grants stability with each pulse.
Mantra of Resolve: the practiced mind can overcome any pain. Cures a condition with each pulse.
Mantra of Persistence: enhance your allies with illusionary potency, making them more than real. Grants might and protection with each pulse.
Mantra of Celerity: the speed of thought enhances foot and fang alike. Grants fury and swiftness with each pulse.

Consider it bardic music buffs or psychic empowerment, either way, that’s your mesmer support style.

4) Can you take the Blurred Frenzy skill, give it Mai Trin’s fencing animation, and rename it Flourish? I know that has nothing to do with balance, but I can’t help feel foolish when my elegant and mystical mesmer flails her sword around like a feather duster. We are mesmers. “Frenzying” is for peasants.

The thing that bothers me with Mantras is, they just don’t seem to synergize very well with the rest of the class. Like you could put them on any other class and they would fit just as well. Mesmers are all about clones and other deceptions and Mantras are just this “pre-cast” direct effect thing, they don’t really seem to fit, so I just don’t really care about them one way or the other.

Shriketalon.1937:

snip

I like the bardic mantra idea. Turning the long channel into a strength, rather than a liability, will help greatly towards making mantras more acceptable in the minds of players.

So excited having a Dev on this forum

JonPeters.5630:

Scepter
…snip…

What is an AA good for if you are not supposed to use it? Right now, there is just no point for using it.Using #1 actually is bad in PvE because you will pop your phantasms. Using an attack should not be worse than doing nothing.

If you are scared by the clones spam you might have to consider getting rid of the clone generation on the third hit of the AA. Many people might hate this change at first but it is the only way to limit condition spams. However, please keep in mind that Staff clones already apply damaging conditions but apparently are no issue.

If you want it to be tricksy you could speed up the chain and make the AA apply conditions if Confusion and/or Torment are applied. E.g. apply Burns to confused targets which will force them to react and therefore be affected by the Confusion. Apply Chill to tormented targets so they can’t just stop and spamm skills. The default condition could be a low stack of Bleeds.

If you want it to be “inspiring” your allies make it heal a small amount (compare to WoC: Conditions) and apply Retaliation or Swiftness (compare to WoC: Fury and Might) in a radius around the caster. Make clones only apply the boons without the healing.

JonPeters.5630:

Confounding Suggestions
…snip…

The new trait is quite underwhelming as it is right now. In a different thread you mentioned reservations against longer dazes because of long lock downs (Counter Blade + Mantra). However, this trait offers no real benefit atm. The increase in duration is too low. You could as well just pick the Mantra trait for an extra daze. That is why some people might prefer the old one although it is RNG. It provided a stun. As Pyro said, it needs something extra. What about a damaging condition on interrupt? That is something we do not have right now and would also fit into the Domination line.

JonPeters.5630:

Mimic
Last thought. This skill is for almost all intents and purposes just not working, but is causing some broken behavior with certain bosses. I would like to replace it with a complete redesign and am open to discussion on that as well.

It could be made into an aura – so you are not locked into a block – which absorbs all attacks for its duration. The echo could still be determined by the first attack which was absorbed but be preset as it is the case for the steal on Thieves. This might also fix some freaky behaviour with bosses.