Guild Wars 2

Zmodd.5427:

Jon said that they’d change Maim the Disillusioned, it suddenly got “OP” because of iPersona. I said that maybe if he changed it to apply 1 stack of Torment per illusion it’d be ok and he said that’s exactly what they have in mind for now. Let’s wait and see.

Happicakes.2054:

Well, it looks like nerfs to MTD are already confirmed by Jon Peters and Karl in chat : ( (8 torment stacks at 3.1K a tic when standing still was pretty awe inspiring)

Me Games Ma.8426:

Ehrm… the 3rd minor trait in dueling isn’t confusing combatants anymore but a trait that grants 5s of fury whenever we hit a target with less than 75% hp. (some icd) does someone know all changes we didn’t know yet? Did any of the streamers go through all of these?

So what happened?

Jon said that they’d change Maim the Disillusioned, it suddenly got “OP” because of iPersona. I said that maybe if he changed it to apply 1 stack of Torment per illusion it’d be ok and he said that’s exactly what they have in mind for now. Let’s wait and see.

Well, it looks like nerfs to MTD are already confirmed by Jon Peters and Karl in chat : ( (8 torment stacks at 3.1K a tic when standing still was pretty awe inspiring)

Zmodd.5427:

Jon said that they’d change Maim the Disillusioned, it suddenly got “OP” because of iPersona. I said that maybe if he changed it to apply 1 stack of Torment per illusion it’d be ok and he said that’s exactly what they have in mind for now. Let’s wait and see.

Wha~???

So… four stacks instead of the previous 6 for a full shatter? I might actually be upset if this happens. We’ll see. Maybe the condi changes makes it evened out. I haven’t seen the mathematicals yet.

Dondagora.9645:

Zmodd.5427:

Jon said that they’d change Maim the Disillusioned, it suddenly got “OP” because of iPersona. I said that maybe if he changed it to apply 1 stack of Torment per illusion it’d be ok and he said that’s exactly what they have in mind for now. Let’s wait and see.

Wha~???

So… four stacks instead of the previous 6 for a full shatter? I might actually be upset if this happens. We’ll see.

That seems to be the case, yes. They might change their mind though, who knows…

I don’t suppose there’s any hope for them giving the new torch phantasm something other than fury as a boon.

Utterly bizarre change. It’s on a condition weapon and there’s no use for it, unless your build also has dueling, in which case all your phantasms have perma fury and there’s still no use for it.

alexei.9364:

I don’t suppose there’s any hope for them giving the new torch phantasm something other than fury as a boon.

Utterly bizarre change. It’s on a condition weapon and there’s no use for it, unless your build also has dueling, in which case all your phantasms have perma fury and there’s still no use for it.

It’s used in power shatter builds too, so not really a “condition weapon.”

alexei.9364:

I don’t suppose there’s any hope for them giving the new torch phantasm something other than fury as a boon.

Utterly bizarre change. It’s on a condition weapon and there’s no use for it, unless your build also has dueling, in which case all your phantasms have perma fury and there’s still no use for it.

Torch 4 can do decent power damage, adding fury makes the phantasm more flexible for power builds.

So much for mesmers having a viable and strong condition spec to play…

Bringing it down to 1 stack without a corresponding duration boost is a significant nerf to the trait that goes above and beyond any boosts that it was given with IP. Just demonstrates once more how truly directionless and incompetent balance decisions are made at Anet central.

Fay.2357:

So much for mesmers having a viable and strong condition spec to play…

Bringing it down to 1 stack without a corresponding duration boost is a significant nerf to the trait that goes above and beyond any boosts that it was given with IP. Just demonstrates once more how truly directionless and incompetent balance decisions are made at Anet central.

Hehe, was waiting to see how long this response would take to surface.

They really need to let it play out a week or so and not base their findings off stationary golems eating damage that don’t dodge, don’t have damage mitigating skills and cleanses.

Happicakes.2054:

Well, it looks like nerfs to MTD are already confirmed by Jon Peters and Karl in chat : ( (8 torment stacks at 3.1K a tic when standing still was pretty awe inspiring)

Wot? 3,1k while standing still? How much condi dmg they had?

Happicakes.2054:

Well, it looks like nerfs to MTD are already confirmed by Jon Peters and Karl in chat : ( (8 torment stacks at 3.1K a tic when standing still was pretty awe inspiring)

3.1K?How did you get that number?
The standing still formula for torment is
1.5+(0.225*Level)+(0.055*Condition Damage)
using Rapid amulet and condie rune would be 1375 condie dmg
So level 80, the damage per second should be 95.125, 8 stacks gives 761

I might have missed something important. But 3.1K is still HUGE.

skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

So much for mesmers having a viable and strong condition spec to play…

Bringing it down to 1 stack without a corresponding duration boost is a significant nerf to the trait that goes above and beyond any boosts that it was given with IP. Just demonstrates once more how truly directionless and incompetent balance decisions are made at Anet central.

Hehe, was waiting to see how long this response would take to surface.

They really need to let it play out a week or so and not base their findings off stationary golems eating damage that don’t dodge, don’t have damage mitigating skills and cleanses.

Yep, it’s really an issue. Knee-jerk reactionary and poorly tested modifications have been the MO for Mesmer balance decisions throughout the entire game, and is a significant contributing factor as to why mesmers are in their current abysmal state.

We had the instant nerf to power block, the neutering of blurred frenzy, the elimination of confusion, the ruining of blinding befuddlement, the massive nerf to shattered strength (with an accompanying apology just for an extra insult) and probably other nerfs that I can’t even remember atm, all of which were poorly conceived and obviously not subjected to anything approaching a logical or critical thought process.

Compare that to the warrior healing signet nerf of 8% that took 4 months of deliberation to execute.

They want to buff condie spec and then nerf the important condie application trait. Seems rather counter-productive to me.

I rarely play the condie mesmer spec so again I could be wrong.

kitten .

I knew they would nerf MtD – especially having moved it down to master tier and looking at the corresponding masters (one stack of might on shatter and phantasm attack cooldown…).

Well that sucks – I’d rather have the 6 stacks without IP than 4 stacks with IP for a 3 clone shatter – especially given now you have to be in close range to get that 4th stack.

So basically MtD is not a core focus of any build but a supplementary source of damage and we’ll have to consider other build options…

I think it’ll be fine. The guy playing it wasn’t even using a Scepter at the time.

Fay.2357:

skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

So much for mesmers having a viable and strong condition spec to play…

Bringing it down to 1 stack without a corresponding duration boost is a significant nerf to the trait that goes above and beyond any boosts that it was given with IP. Just demonstrates once more how truly directionless and incompetent balance decisions are made at Anet central.

Hehe, was waiting to see how long this response would take to surface.

They really need to let it play out a week or so and not base their findings off stationary golems eating damage that don’t dodge, don’t have damage mitigating skills and cleanses.

Yep, it’s really an issue. Knee-jerk reactionary and poorly tested modifications have been the MO for Mesmer balance decisions throughout the entire game, and is a significant contributing factor as to why mesmers are in their current abysmal state.

We had the instant nerf to power block, the neutering of blurred frenzy, the elimination of confusion, the ruining of blinding befuddlement, the massive nerf to shattered strength (with an accompanying apology just for an extra insult) and probably other nerfs that I can’t even remember atm, all of which were poorly conceived and obviously not subjected to anything approaching a logical or critical thought process.

Compare that to the warrior healing signet nerf of 8% that took 4 months of deliberation to execute.

Don’t forget the absolutely random CD increase to my beloved Chaos Storm/Armor. =[

Dastion.3106:

I think it’ll be fine. The guy playing it wasn’t even using a Scepter at the time.

I’d rather not have scepter be mandatory for condition shatter play, so if they do nerf MtD I might invest more in confusion seeing as we have many more sources of that now.

I wish we could actually have a week or two to play with the changes before they get nerfed out the door, but I suppose this is the status quo for mesmer…

Condie mesmer will probably rely on ineptitude now.

Then next they will probably put 10s iCD on Blinding Dissipation w/o any compensation to Ineptitude.

Curunen.8729:

Dastion.3106:

I think it’ll be fine. The guy playing it wasn’t even using a Scepter at the time.

I’d rather not have scepter be mandatory for condition shatter play, so if they do nerf MtD I might invest more in confusion seeing as we have many more sources of that now.

True, but remember that it’s still a potential option that synergies quite well with the build being used. You inflict even more torment with your auto attack, summon clones that inflict torment and your #2 skill will either inflict Torment or Blind+Confusion. Meanwhile the six strike #3 gives you opportunities for at least 6 more stacks of confusion (potentially more on crits).

The guy had 3k torments up on the unmoving golem without even needing to utilize the Scepter.

Ineptitude is looking to be our true powerhouse trait with all of it’s synergy with blind on shatter, scepter 2, and Signet of Midnight.

Gotta love how every time mesmers think they’re getting some nice stuff, we’re brutally slapped in the face before it’s even released.

This, right here, is why I’m so godkitten pessimistic, Chaos.

for what i see on golem they always get double dmg from torment to demonstrate the full potential
so i dont know if anet changed it

MtD nerf? I’d like to request that Panic Strike and Executioner get into the same tier.

No real complaint here I just randomly picked a strong thing since our strong thing got/gets nerfed.^^

if they gonna nerf mtd they should decrease the duration not the stacks. so from 6 seconds to 4 seconds (33% nerf and not 50%)

messiah.1908:

if they gonna nerf mtd they should decrease the duration not the stacks. so from 6 seconds to 4 seconds (33% nerf and not 50%)

Would take kitten . That would result in having it not buffed or nerfed. We’d just have to hit with our IP.

messiah.1908:

for what i see on golem they always get double dmg from torment to demonstrate the full potential
so i dont know if anet changed it

You’re absolutely right messiah. 3.1k torment ticks on a stationary target isn’t a thing, not even with the new scaling. The golem is showing mobile tick numbers.

If we get our trait nerfed because the devs don’t know how their own game works, I’m not sure whether I’ll be laughing or crying.

I thought devs want us to shatter more often? Did devs forgot the very concept of shatter? Shatter is a burst skill that sacrifice DPS from illusion to achieve great damage in short time, if shatter doesn’t reward as much then why should we shatter? One torment per illusion is almost the same as keeping them alive and let them spam auto, this mean we’re back to PU + camping with clones again. Devs need to remember that we’re dealing with players here, not golems. Opponents know shatter mesmer sacrifice their sustain for burst and to an extend they’ll find this fair, because most builds can outcleanse burst conditions, not prolonged and sustained ones from camping clones.

P.S. as a side note, scepter block is going to be more powerful than maim…again

Fay.2357:

messiah.1908:

for what i see on golem they always get double dmg from torment to demonstrate the full potential
so i dont know if anet changed it

You’re absolutely right messiah. 3.1k torment ticks on a stationary target isn’t a thing, not even with the new scaling. The golem is showing mobile tick numbers.

If we get our trait nerfed because the devs don’t know how their own game works, I’m not sure whether I’ll be laughing or crying.

also even with my current build i can do 3k dps with torment so why now to nerf it just becuase ip trait. ip mainly wil be helpful for f4 .
the cleanse abilities i am facing and will be facing is gonna be huge (resistance, warrior immunity, ele etc…) so nothing will be changed in wvw and pvp (maybe only 1v1)

so they push the condi shatter back… far back. but direct dmg get 25% buffed for most classes OK ty.

Yeah, at least let it play out.
I will completely lose faith in the balance team if they base their balance on how hard you can beat down a golem.

I did check the stream and saw 14 stack of torment with 2,7k/s while standing still (1,2k condi damage)

Around min 55, or am i blind?

and bow warrior can do 3k burning dmg yessss…
imagine condi ele, engi and guard doing 4k burning dmg

why cant we

messiah.1908:

if they gonna nerf mtd they should decrease the duration not the stacks. so from 6 seconds to 4 seconds (33% nerf and not 50%)

Yeah I agree with this.

Otherwise I’d say move MtD back to grandmaster, keep it at 2 stacks for 6 seconds – make it build defining as it should be and currently is.

So they only mentioned this during the stream? They’re just going to silently nerf a trait the day before the patch without a proper announcement? That’s real nice of them.

Curunen.8729:

messiah.1908:

if they gonna nerf mtd they should decrease the duration not the stacks. so from 6 seconds to 4 seconds (33% nerf and not 50%)

Yeah I agree with this.

Otherwise I’d say move MtD back to grandmaster, keep it at 2 stacks for 6 seconds – make it build defining as it should be and currently is.

Or, bear with me, how about they leave it as is and not nerf it because somebody was able to combo a ton of torment onto A TARGET GOLEM!

Exciton.8942:

Yeah, at least let it play out.
I will completely lose faith in the balance team if they base their balance on how hard you can beat down a golem.

They do. That’s why they nerfed the new Mental Torment to 30% on opponents now using skills down from 50%. They literally said on the stream “We tested this on some golems and it was a bit too strong”.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

I thought devs want us to shatter more often? Did devs forgot the very concept of shatter? Shatter is a burst skill that sacrifice DPS from illusion to achieve great damage in short time, if shatter doesn’t reward as much then why should we shatter? One torment per illusion is almost the same as keeping them alive and let them spam auto, this mean we’re back to PU + camping with clones again. Devs need to remember that we’re dealing with players here, not golems. Opponents know shatter mesmer sacrifice their sustain for burst and to an extend they’ll find this fair, because most builds can outcleanse burst conditions, not prolonged and sustained ones from camping clones.

P.S. as a side note, scepter block is going to be more powerful than maim…again

This so much…

And as you say – with full cooldown on scepter the scepter block is going to do far more damage than MtD. Stupid really – I don’t want to be forced into using scepter for a condition build.

And it makes it even more stupid that leaving staff clones or scepter clones up and letting them simply AA will do comparable damage than shattering all your illusions for a burst.

If the patch comes out with only one stack of torment per illusion shattered, and it ensures condition shatter is fully pushed out of high level play then I don’t know what to say.

I thought they were trying to push more options, not less.

Rearrange the traits, tweak other traits (like PU for example…), I don’t care – neutering condition shatter when so many other things are getting buffed across all the classes is ridiculous.

Fay.2357:

Curunen.8729:

messiah.1908:

if they gonna nerf mtd they should decrease the duration not the stacks. so from 6 seconds to 4 seconds (33% nerf and not 50%)

Yeah I agree with this.

Otherwise I’d say move MtD back to grandmaster, keep it at 2 stacks for 6 seconds – make it build defining as it should be and currently is.

Or, bear with me, how about they leave it as is and not nerf it because somebody was able to combo a ton of torment onto A TARGET GOLEM!

Oh I agree – I’d rather they didn’t touch it at all and let it play out.

Quadox.7834:

Exciton.8942:

Yeah, at least let it play out.
I will completely lose faith in the balance team if they base their balance on how hard you can beat down a golem.

They do. That’s why they nerfed the new Mental Torment to 30% on opponents now using skills down from 50%. They literally said on the stream “We tested this on some golems and it was a bit too strong”.

really cant get them
i can do 18 stacks of torment on actual dd ele player – did he die in 5 sec? – NO he cleanse, block, dodge, cleanse, cleanse so 1 min fight – its not OP common

i am so kittensss off and i bought the 100$ pre-sale – i want to return in now

Very odd. It seemingly makes no sense at all. I mean we know what MtD was like with 1 stack, and no one was interested. It got boosted to 2 stacks, and now a small niche group of Mesmers started playing and defending it…but overall, it was clearly inferior to P-shatter.

Now we finally were looking at real potential for Condie shatter to finally rival P-shatter, and before we can even play it for ourselves they nerf it by 50%. Sorry, but their math just doesn’t add up. They should know how much the boosts added up to, it’s not hard to calculate. Then based on that information, they should be adjusting with care, not hacking away at an ability with a machete and expect balance.

I mean, really? Didn’t we see a 50% boost to Torment damage for moving targets on Malicious Sorcery only a few weeks ago? And now this huge nerf? Going a bit in extremes here aren’t we? I have to side with Fay, this knee-jerk stuff just doesn’t look very professional.

Ineptitude is nice and all, but Confusion is not magically going to turn out to be a strong Condition, certainly not based on what we’ve seen so far. Like a poor bleed with a nerfed “on activate” effect. Again, our mostly ~3s of Confusion durations just aren’t up to competing with 10s Burns, Bleeds, etc.

Yeah – funny how they even considered the +50% torment damage to moving targets for the early scepter trait… and now we’re swinging totally in the other direction that it will likely be negligable compared to other sources.

I hope they reconsider this before tomorrow – leave MtD alone, wait and see how it plays out especially vs the ridiculous cleansing of eles and warriors, and then make a decision in a few weeks…

Honestly if they roll this change out, I’ll probably just shelve my Mesmer other than for the proposed omfg wvw raids.

I’ll gear up my engineer instead. Perks include:

Permanent swiftness, better healing, more access to burning, poison, bleeding, confusion, vulnerability, chill, cripple, and blind. Also aoe moa, lots of blast finishers, and higher base armor.

Well there goes my insp/chaos/illusion build before I even got to try it.

kittening balancing based on a target golem, I had forgotten how bad the balance team truly was.

omg engi doing 8k burning dps
lets nerf confusion on mesmer then….

I seriously hope they reconsider before tomorrow. I was pretty excited for the patch but this single change puts a downer on the whole thing.

Please give us a chance to play with it and actually determine if it is truly overpowers vs actual human opponents who use their damage mitigation sources… not kittening target golems…

Fun thought experiment:

If they’re so willing the jump on this trait and nerf it into the ground based on target golem performance, do you really think they’re going to leave power block, chaotic dampening, blinding dissipation, evasive mirror, and mental defense alone?

…And here I thought I was actually going to use my Mesmer in PvP again since before they nerfed Blurred Frenzy.

I hate being right all the time.

If this is true, this is tragic, really tragic. So they are nerfing the trait based on the dmg it was doing in a random stream, to a target Golem? Wow.

I was excited to finally see some pvp diversity with mesmer builds with the MtD changes, fed up of 1 standard power shatter build being the only thing viable.

Dont nerf a trait that will encourage build diversity/ different tpvp compositions before its even been released. That’s bordering kittened.