Guild Wars 2

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

By the 15% boon duration?

And Might sharing through BD.

Embolism.8106:

In an effort to remain on-topic…

Embolism.8106:

@Pyro:

If you can stack 25 Might easy between BD and Herald (or whatever your preferred Might stacker is), would it be a better to go MtD instead of Shattered Strength? It’s not much damage but it’s still something.

Do you think you’d get more Alacrity/damage from using Illusionary Reversion/PoM for more Illusions? From what I can tell from the video a lot of Shatters weren’t full Shatters, but perhaps taking one or two of those traits would beef them up.

Re MtD: Yeah, sure. I wasn’t running with a herald mostly, so it helped keep might higher on me, but obviously it’s unnecessary if you’re party capped already. MtD is by no means going to make a particularly noticeable difference in dps, but I suppose it’s more than nothing.

Re IR/PoM: I tried IR actually. It turns out that you can actually maintain permanent alacrity on yourself without improved alacrity as long as you maintain a good shatter cadence. However, it made it more difficult for me to maintain it, and meant that I ended with less after a fight. With improved alacrity, I’d still have 15-20 seconds of alacrity ticking away after a fight, meaning that any cooldowns I used towards the end kept going down. That was particularly noticeable when I wanted to respec real quick into PU for MI on a skip.

PoM definitely could be better than compounding power though. That’ll reduce cooldowns on echo of memory by a ton, which would help both with alacrity uptime and just generally having a defensive cooldown available.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

It’s better for you to shatter phantasms than to shatter clones because the phantasms do damage and then you shatter them and they do damage again.

How does summoning a clone keep you from shattering a phantasm?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

It’s better for you to shatter phantasms than to shatter clones because the phantasms do damage and then you shatter them and they do damage again.

How does summoning a clone keep you from shattering a phantasm?

I think he’s running under the assumption that every Shatter is going to be a 3 Phant Shatter. Which calls into question what kind of Shatter cadence he’s envisioning.

Or maybe he doesn’t know that Clones never replace Phantasms unless you have 3 Phants.

Fay.2357:

With improved alacrity, I’d still have 15-20 seconds of alacrity ticking away after a fight, meaning that any cooldowns I used towards the end kept going down.

That’s a good point.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Yeah, I did forgot about CS and I didn’t relise the well was on such a low cd. But remember your giving up 12 seconds of relfects for 8 seconds of alacrity.

Do note that Pyro has already said he’d swap out Calamity for Feedback in fights where that matters more.
Also, as I noted earlier in the thread, shield is providing additional alacrity via the revamped shield phantasms. We haven’t calculated what kind of potential you get out of those, though, because it’s complicated and messy (Persistence of Memory + Chronophantasma + Quickness + Shield 4×2 = ????)

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

With my build you already have 18 seconds of alacrity which should be plenty. If there isn’t a need for reflects against a certain boss then you can go for the well.

What percentage of boss fights are only 18s long? Is there a source to find that kind of information?

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I’m saying you can take well eternity sometimes, but you will also use well of eternity. And you can swap in shield if for some reason you already don’t. But the significant changes between our builds are STAFF and the trait line CHAOS.

I do agree with you on the staff, actually. If this were a boonshare build as well as an alacrity build, I’d probably stick with staff for the protection sharing, both otherwise I think you’ll get more mileage out of a second offhand.
The main key to the chaos is the might stacking, which is definitely more support than your build…given the right party. A PS warrior would make BD (mostly) moot, which would give a good reason to go Dom instead.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

And the fact that my build has reflects while his has 0. I’m simply discussing changes to his build.

Already mentioned the feedback swap. Your build has 1 reflect, which his build has with a simple swap, the same swap you just suggested you’d be willing to make on any boss where reflects aren’t critical (most bosses).

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

???? Glad you can see into the future about what my build will be like.

Just responding specifically to your trend of taking stuff from his build and incorporating it. You keep going that way, and that’s where you’ll end up. Taking my phrase out of context doesn’t help you.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I’m saying my build should already have enough quickness and if not you can just swap shield in. It really depends on the dungeon and the group you have. I have yet to play chrono so idk how often shield will be used or not.

If the fight only lasts 17s, yes. If it does not, no. See above, do you know how many fights that will be? And what are your sources on that?
As far as shield itself, it’s pretty boss, you should try it, I think you’ll like it.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

My build has reflects and projectile destruction. his doesn’t. See what I’m getting at? if your wanting to do a ele, ele, chrono, warrior, revenant comp, your atleast going to need reflects. Thus my build has significantly more support.

1. Shield5 destroys projectiles (though there’s been some bug reports around that). You’d know that if you’d read the ability.
2. He can easily swap to Feedback for the important fights, which means your build only has “more support” in places where reflects are less important than alacrity, in which case it is by definition not “more support”. Only on fights where Feedback and Shield 5 aren’t enough projectile destruction will your build have “more support”. Which fights are those, do you know?

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

What? You saying all the stuff below that ( quotes from me ) is somehow ignoring it? Are you * with me? Like?!??!?!?!?!?!? Are you for real? You gotta start making some sence or I am gonna just strait up start ignoring you. I’m like 99.999% sure your just a troll at this point.

I edited this out 24 minutes before you posted.
I’ve found it’s useful to check the thread again before I post, to make sure everything I’ve said is still accurate.
(I also double-check my posts after I post them just so I can catch little mistakes like this one and edit them out).
I highly recommend both habits, especially in a conversation that’s going as fast as this one.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Never going to end up with 3 phantasms? Wah?!?!? May I ask why you think we will only ever be getting up to two phantasms out?

We’re shattering Mind Wrack on cooldown, at 100% alacrity, which means a shatter at least once every 7s. But we’re also shattering CoF on cooldown (13s), and the other two shatters on cooldown as well (20s and 26s). Between all of them, even Chronophantasma can’t keep your phantasms alive long enough to get three out except right at the start (remember we’re using Well of Eternity over Signet of Ether).
This isn’t just because of BD in Pyro’s build, but also because you need the 100% alacrity to keep your CS cooldown low for more frequent fights. Even if 18s is enough for your team, it’s unfortunately not enough for you, the chronomancer. So you’ve gotta be shattering.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

not to mention, the auto attack can give more than 1 close if you repeat the cycle twice……..

Clones always overwrite clones first, so you never need to worry about overwriting a phantasm unless you have three phantasms.
This is another mesmer thing I’m surprised you don’t know, given how hard you’re arguing today.

Feedback isn’t going to be enough reflects. And you have to wait for the end of the block to get the alacrity and like I said you should have enough alacrity already. And I think its safe to say in lower lvl dungeons bosses die before 18 seconds. If not simply equip a shield. And warrior is the guy providing might. We still need some math tho if its better to go chaos and grab a revenant ( if you don’t need much stealth of course ) or to go with a 3rd ele and PS warrior. And yes my build has 1 reflect but it also has projectile destruction via the focus phantasm.

“Just responding specifically to your trend of taking stuff from his build and incorporating it. You keep going that way, and that’s where you’ll end up. Taking my phrase out of context doesn’t help you.”

Pyro said he would take feedback if reflects are needed! Your build is gonna end up just like mine! Tehehehehehehehehehehehe.

“If the fight only lasts 17s, yes. If it does not, no. See above, do you know how many fights that will be? And what are your sources on that?”

On lower lvl dungeons 17 seconds of quickness should be plenty. In something like arah it might be better to take shield.

“1. Shield5 destroys projectiles (though there’s been some bug reports around that). You’d know that if you’d read the ability.”

Yes, it does provide projectile destruction. That’s why i have trying to pay attention to the prices on tormented shield incase i want to get that because I could see it having niche uses in pvp like vs power rangers. But providing your in melee range its only going to provide projectile destruction for a tiny bit.

“2. He can easily swap to Feedback for the important fights, which means your build only has “more support” in places where reflects are less important than alacrity, in which case it is by definition not “more support”. Only on fights where Feedback and Shield 5 aren’t enough projectile destruction will your build have “more support”. Which fights are those, do you know?”

The fights that involve projectiles and last over 12 seconds ( or 13 or something if you want to count the shields projectile destruction ). Which are plenty of bosses.

“We’re shattering Mind Wrack on cooldown, at 100% alacrity, which means a shatter at least once every 7s. But we’re also shattering CoF on cooldown (13s), and the other two shatters on cooldown as well (20s and 26s). Between all of them, even Chronophantasma can’t keep your phantasms alive long enough to get three out except right at the start (remember we’re using Well of Eternity over Signet of Ether).
This isn’t just because of BD in Pyro’s build, but also because you need the 100% alacrity to keep your CS cooldown low for more frequent fights. Even if 18s is enough for your team, it’s unfortunately not enough for you, the chronomancer. So you’ve gotta be shattering.”

I will have 27 seconds of alacrity on me thanks to the one trait I picked in my build. not counting my shatters of course. Not to mention if you have enough alacrity for the fight you make it seam like you would still want more for during the skips? This is true, but your not going to be popping wells during a skip and standing in them long enough to get the alacrity.

And you don’t just shatter off cd. The point of shattering is so that your phantasms can get another attack. If you have 3 phantasms up that you already shattered once and you don’t have another phantasm up, you don’t shatter. And even if you do have a shatter up it might be better to wait till your phantasms attack again depending on how long it was since they last attacked. And thus scepter would totally screw with all this.

“Clones always overwrite clones first, so you never need to worry about overwriting a phantasm unless you have three phantasms.
This is another mesmer thing I’m surprised you don’t know, given how hard you’re arguing today.’

This is something I did forget about. Tho to be far this knowledge isn’t every really used when you play a mesmer.

Embolism.8106:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

By the 15% boon duration?

And Might sharing through BD.

Which the warrior will be doing. Unless the dungeon doesn’t require much stealth and going revenant over a 3rd ele is better. Which is what we need some math done on.

@Embolism

Yes I believe at somepoint you will have 3 phantasms out for the auto attack to mess up.

I don’t think it’s a bad build. I guess I just don’t see it going meta as I don’t see it as being as min/maxed as the alternatives. It won’t really add that much DPS to the warrior as the allowance to move from PS will not help as much as the allowance to move from strength runes and other such might boosters which is what a Rev will allow on his own with the boon duration buff. And his more practical damage output. I could very well see chrono being a large thing, and I could see getting use out of this build as well, but just not in a meta setting.

So the idea of calling it “The” chronomancer dungeon rotation is a bit off to me. I’d call it something like the Illusionary warrior, or buffbot extreme. It’s nice, it has certain qualities, but I just don’t see it playing to mesmer’s strength fully, and I don’t see the weaknesses of the class disappearing such that it’d allow this build to be an optimal setting outside of a few niche cases.

I’d be happy to elaborate but I think the discussion on this topic has already hit many of the points I’d make, strength of reflect, impracticality of clones and phantasms in PVP even if you’re shattering them. I do forsee me putting most of my specialization trees to use though. Chrono/Illusion/Inspiration on one fight, swap inspiration for chaos to skip, swap chaos to duelist for next fight, then back to chaos to skip, and then maybe even dropping chrono at times and, I don’t know I forsee a lot of swapping to optimize, which we already do but it’ll only increase.

Jerus.4350:

I don’t think it’s a bad build. I guess I just don’t see it going meta as I don’t see it as being as min/maxed as the alternatives. It won’t really add that much DPS to the warrior as the allowance to move from PS will not help as much as the allowance to move from strength runes and other such might boosters which is what a Rev will allow on his own with the boon duration buff. And his more practical damage output. I could very well see chrono being a large thing, and I could see getting use out of this build as well, but just not in a meta setting.

So the idea of calling it “The” chronomancer dungeon rotation is a bit off to me. I’d call it something like the Illusionary warrior, or buffbot extreme. It’s nice, it has certain qualities, but I just don’t see it playing to mesmer’s strength fully, and I don’t see the weaknesses of the class disappearing such that it’d allow this build to be an optimal setting outside of a few niche cases.

I’d be happy to elaborate but I think the discussion on this topic has already hit many of the points I’d make, strength of reflect, impracticality of clones and phantasms in PVP even if you’re shattering them. I do forsee me putting most of my specialization trees to use though. Chrono/Illusion/Inspiration on one fight, swap inspiration for chaos to skip, swap chaos to duelist for next fight, then back to chaos to skip, and then maybe even dropping chrono at times and, I don’t know I forsee a lot of swapping to optimize, which we already do but it’ll only increase.

This. And yeah I can definitely see a use for all specialization trees. Can’t wait for chrono.

Jerus.4350:

So the idea of calling it “The” chronomancer dungeon rotation is a bit off to me. I’d call it something like the Illusionary warrior, or buffbot extreme. It’s nice, it has certain qualities, but I just don’t see it playing to mesmer’s strength fully, and I don’t see the weaknesses of the class disappearing such that it’d allow this build to be an optimal setting outside of a few niche cases.

I’m curious. What strengths of mesmer do you identify exactly, and what standard weaknesses of mesmer does this build not eliminate?

Strengths I see are Reflects for sure, Skipping, and Condi cleanse as a main 3, of course we have a lot of stuff to offer but if I had to say there were 3 things I did the best, it would be those.

Weaknesses, well, it’s mainly just one, the impracticality of illusions, the way they can die so quickly, even the 1s of distortion hasn’t been enough in my experience considering it’s only phantasms. So I don’t think shatter becoming stronger will really fix that issue, help yes, eliminate no.

Again though, not saying it’s a bad build, it may see some use, but I don’t see it taking a main seat in the content we currently have (dungeons/fractals) as our ability to protect ourselves from projectiles is simply too important too often. And while sure the rev could swap focus to that with Ventari… I don’t know, I just don’t see it being the better of the two options.

Of course for raids everything might change, this very buff oriented build may be amazing, we may be tanking up a bit and just trying to keep everyone going fast not focusing on damage at all. We may be playing a condi support role. We may be doing just about anything, who knows, but for the content we have I just can’t see moving away from the role we currently have, I can see adding chrono to it making it all that much stronger.

But then again, I’m not a main mesmer, I do enjoy it though, it’s just my 2 cents on the build.

Jerus.4350:

Strengths I see are Reflects for sure, Skipping, and Condi cleanse as a main 3, of course we have a lot of stuff to offer but if I had to say there were 3 things I did the best, it would be those.

So the shield provides projectile destruction, and if you’re in a situation that requires reflects, you’ll swap off calamity for feedback instead. The heal well is cleansing 3 condies in an aoe + a large heal every time you use it. If that’s not enough cleansing, your party has some serious issues. You can swap from BD to PU, swap on MI, and double tap it for an instant 20 seconds of stealth for skipping.

Jerus.4350:

Weaknesses, well, it’s mainly just one, the impracticality of illusions, the way they can die so quickly, even the 1s of distortion hasn’t been enough in my experience considering it’s only phantasms. So I don’t think shatter becoming stronger will really fix that issue, help yes, eliminate no.

This build completely eliminates that weakness. Instead of trying to do damage yourself, you’re making everyone else on your party do far more damage. Providing permanent alacrity and quickness to the other 4 members of your party makes your effective dps (the amount of damage that your party gains by having you there) higher than an additional elementalist.

Fay.2357:

Jerus.4350:

Strengths I see are Reflects for sure, Skipping, and Condi cleanse as a main 3, of course we have a lot of stuff to offer but if I had to say there were 3 things I did the best, it would be those.

So the shield provides projectile destruction, and if you’re in a situation that requires reflects, you’ll swap off calamity for feedback instead. The heal well is cleansing 3 condies in an aoe + a large heal every time you use it. If that’s not enough cleansing, your party has some serious issues. You can swap from BD to PU, swap on MI, and double tap it for an instant 20 seconds of stealth for skipping.

Jerus.4350:

Weaknesses, well, it’s mainly just one, the impracticality of illusions, the way they can die so quickly, even the 1s of distortion hasn’t been enough in my experience considering it’s only phantasms. So I don’t think shatter becoming stronger will really fix that issue, help yes, eliminate no.

This build completely eliminates that weakness. Instead of trying to do damage yourself, you’re making everyone else on your party do far more damage. Providing permanent alacrity and quickness to the other 4 members of your party makes your effective dps (the amount of damage that your party gains by having you there) higher than an additional elementalist.

The thing is, since you will be fighting in melee range, the shield won’t be really protecting you. And even with feedback, that’s 12 seconds of reflect. And while the heal skill does provide condition removal, its only 3 conditions. With that being said you can just take the mantra if you need condition removal. And there isn’t much of a reason to take staff nor chaos if you have a warrior with PS. I think this is a tl;dr version of all that I have said in the thread

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

The thing is, since you will be fighting in melee range, the shield won’t be really protecting you. And even with feedback, that’s 12 seconds of reflect.

Sure, but feedback ends up on a pretty short cooldown with permanent alacrity. There’s not a lot of fights where you need continual reflects any more, for a simple reason. If you need continual reflects, then the reflects are trivializing the fight, which means anet is gonna nerf the ability to reflect, and this has happened quite a bit already.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

And while the heal skill does provide condition removal, its only 3 conditions.

The mantra only removes 4, this isn’t exactly a huge difference. Condition removal is never an issue in an intelligent team anyway, every class has solid options for it.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

And there isn’t much of a reason to take staff nor chaos if you have a warrior with PS. I think this is a tl;dr version of all that I have said in the thread

And as we’ve responded to you like 12 times already, your warrior doesn’t need to take PS if you have this build and a herald, but for some reason this logic seems to be above you…

Fay.2357:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

The thing is, since you will be fighting in melee range, the shield won’t be really protecting you. And even with feedback, that’s 12 seconds of reflect.

Sure, but feedback ends up on a pretty short cooldown with permanent alacrity. There’s not a lot of fights where you need continual reflects any more, for a simple reason. If you need continual reflects, then the reflects are trivializing the fight, which means anet is gonna nerf the ability to reflect, and this has happened quite a bit already.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

And while the heal skill does provide condition removal, its only 3 conditions.

The mantra only removes 4, this isn’t exactly a huge difference. Condition removal is never an issue in an intelligent team anyway, every class has solid options for it.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

And there isn’t much of a reason to take staff nor chaos if you have a warrior with PS. I think this is a tl;dr version of all that I have said in the thread

And as we’ve responded to you like 12 times already, your warrior doesn’t need to take PS if you have this build and a herald, but for some reason this logic seems to be above you…

Actually, there are a good amount of fights where perma reflects are needed. And with 2 eles, chrono, thief, and warrior, chrono is the best option for condition removal. And its 6 if you go dueling.

“And as we’ve responded to you like 12 times already, your warrior doesn’t need to take PS if you have this build and a herald, but for some reason this logic seems to be above you…”

The difference between PS and discipline warrior isn’t actually that large. Because remember the one big thing with going discipline is you get quickness, but with chrono that doesn’t matter. While going revenant means replacing a ele. Which means minus 2 IBs, minus two FGSs, minus glyph of storms, and minus 150 power, and minus some mesmer DPS. If your taking a thief, that means only 1 ele in the group. While you gain 150 ferocity and some tiny warrior DPS increase. And if you only take one ele you are going to be short on vuln. It would seam at a glance its just not worth it. I would be happy for some DPS tests to be done, but it doesn’t look too promising at all. After having looked it over more thoroughly, I think I can finally say I’m 100% sure its better to not take a revenant. Now that’s not to say you can’t go the other route, that’s just to say I don’t believe it will be the most efficient thing to do.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

And phantasmal haste reduces the cd on your phantasms so you can re-summon them faster.

Phantasmal Haste: Phantasms attack more often (20%).

Illusionists Celerity: Reduce recharge on illusion-summoning skills (20%)

Fay.2357:

Jerus.4350:

Strengths I see are Reflects for sure, Skipping, and Condi cleanse as a main 3, of course we have a lot of stuff to offer but if I had to say there were 3 things I did the best, it would be those.

So the shield provides projectile destruction, and if you’re in a situation that requires reflects, you’ll swap off calamity for feedback instead. The heal well is cleansing 3 condies in an aoe + a large heal every time you use it. If that’s not enough cleansing, your party has some serious issues. You can swap from BD to PU, swap on MI, and double tap it for an instant 20 seconds of stealth for skipping.

Jerus.4350:

Weaknesses, well, it’s mainly just one, the impracticality of illusions, the way they can die so quickly, even the 1s of distortion hasn’t been enough in my experience considering it’s only phantasms. So I don’t think shatter becoming stronger will really fix that issue, help yes, eliminate no.

This build completely eliminates that weakness. Instead of trying to do damage yourself, you’re making everyone else on your party do far more damage. Providing permanent alacrity and quickness to the other 4 members of your party makes your effective dps (the amount of damage that your party gains by having you there) higher than an additional elementalist.

Condi Cleanse aye, should be covered, though I think being able to space them out with Mantra is more beneficial than a strong one on a longer cooldown.

If you think feedback + shield is enough… how often do you do a lot of the tougher reflect content? Though I guess you could say “well then they just gotta learn to dodge” but… well, then again you’re sacrificing damage potential. I’m just not convinced it’s enough, esp without mimic on that feedback.

As for deminishing the weakness by bolstering support. The question is not whether it bolsters support or not, it’s whether it’s worth it. There’s a chart that could be made, how much damage you’d do in a situation vs how much you’d add to your team in a situation. And yes, it very well might increase in your comparison in a vacuum, but again, add in projectiles and I think that’d paint a very different picture. And also what about a more damage focused Chrono able to provide a lot of quickness and a good bit of alacrity… again just not convinced.

Now we get to the stealth/skip part, that’s one thing that really troubles me. I’m often sitting on one or even 0 swappable utility slots at the beginning of an encounter having used them all up to get us through a skip. Do i sit around and wait to get my Timewarp? do I sit around and wait for the well(s)? Viel, Mimic, Mass Invis, they have long cooldowns. It’s a concern of mine.

I’m sure your build will do well, easily exceed viable, maybe be optimal in some situations. I just don’t think it’d be something I’d consider my base build is all which is what I consider being “The” build, the baseline you alter.

Jerus.4350:

If you think feedback + shield is enough… how often do you do a lot of the tougher reflect content? Though I guess you could say “well then they just gotta learn to dodge” but… well, then again you’re sacrificing damage potential. I’m just not convinced it’s enough, esp without mimic on that feedback.

There’s extremely little content where you actually need permanent uptime on reflects. You’re pretty much limited to uncategorized and maaaybe ascalon/cliffside. In those situations, it would probably be worth to drop staff in favor of focus, and shift chaos to inspiration for the trait…but those are niche situations.

Jerus.4350:

As for deminishing the weakness by bolstering support. The question is not whether it bolsters support or not, it’s whether it’s worth it. There’s a chart that could be made, how much damage you’d do in a situation vs how much you’d add to your team in a situation. And yes, it very well might increase in your comparison in a vacuum, but again, add in projectiles and I think that’d paint a very different picture. And also what about a more damage focused Chrono able to provide a lot of quickness and a good bit of alacrity… again just not convinced.

The math has been done for this. Permanent quickness + alacrity is more party dps than an additional elementalist. You also drastically overestimate the amount of damage even a 100% fully damage specced mesmer does. Mesmer damage is nothing sort of abysmal.

Jerus.4350:

Now we get to the stealth/skip part, that’s one thing that really troubles me. I’m often sitting on one or even 0 swappable utility slots at the beginning of an encounter having used them all up to get us through a skip. Do i sit around and wait to get my Timewarp? do I sit around and wait for the well(s)? Viel, Mimic, Mass Invis, they have long cooldowns. It’s a concern of mine.

Well, here’s the nice thing. If you’re rotating things properly, you’ll finish a fight with still 15-20 seconds of alacrity ticking on you. You can additionally roll through your 3 lower cd shatters out of combat (assuming you keep away from the aoe radius of hitting things) to maintain around 50% uptime on alacrity for some time after that. This means that the 72s cooldown of mass invis suddenly drops to around 50 seconds. In some places, that’s enough for it to be ready by the next fight. In others…you’re certainly losing a little bit of utility, but it’s generally not the end of the world, especially if there’s a bit of trash to clear first.

Not disputing Alacrity + Quickness benefits, more the need for this level of up time and the value of shedding the defensive support. We don’t live in a vacuum of paper theory perfection.

Jerus.4350:

Not disputing Alacrity + Quickness benefits, more the need for this level of up time and the value of shedding the defensive support. We don’t live in a vacuum of paper theory perfection.

Except, you’ve been talking more about offensive than defensive support.
Pyro has already conceded (long before you or French Fry came into the picture, this came up right at the start) that swapping for Feedback may be necessary.
Doing so is a compromise between the need for reflects and value of that improved offensive support. You can compromise further, if need be, by swapping an entire trait line and weapon-set to get focus reflects, as Pyro has also conceded. That’ll weaken your offensive support even further, at the gain of reflect support.

But if you really need more…

If it was worth bringing along inferior dps (guardian, mesmer) for reflects in some dungeons before Chrono, why isn’t it worth bringing along a guardian in addition to the Chrono? I’ve already demonstrated mathematically that the chronomancer is adding more dps to the whole group than another ele would (which means he’s adding more than any other class would either), so why not just bring along a guardian for reflects in those dungeons where Feedback+Alacrity isn’t enough? Indeed, the guardian’s reflects will be even better than usual, given the effect of Alacrity, and guardian dps is already known to be decent, so they’d presumably contribute decently when boosted by Alacrity and quickness.

Gav.1425:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

And phantasmal haste reduces the cd on your phantasms so you can re-summon them faster.

Phantasmal Haste: Phantasms attack more often (20%).

Illusionists Celerity: Reduce recharge on illusion-summoning skills (20%)

Yeah, I already noted I got the two mixed up. But it’s not like there is anything better to take there and who knows you might get some use out of it.

@Jerus

“Now we get to the stealth/skip part, that’s one thing that really troubles me. I’m often sitting on one or even 0 swappable utility slots at the beginning of an encounter having used them all up to get us through a skip. Do i sit around and wait to get my Timewarp? do I sit around and wait for the well(s)? Viel, Mimic, Mass Invis, they have long cooldowns. It’s a concern of mine.”

I think this is a good point. So I think we can expect for most dungeons a thief will be taken.

@Fay

“There’s extremely little content where you actually need permanent uptime on reflects. You’re pretty much limited to uncategorized and maaaybe ascalon/cliffside. In those situations, it would probably be worth to drop staff in favor of focus, and shift chaos to inspiration for the trait…but those are niche situations.”

I would hardly say that only uncategorized and ascalon/cliffisde. But at least we can agree focus will be taken when projectile destruction is needed.

“The math has been done for this. Permanent quickness + alacrity is more party dps than an additional elementalist. You also drastically overestimate the amount of damage even a 100% fully damage specced mesmer does. Mesmer damage is nothing
sort of abysmal.”

Quoting Jerus because he/she said it quite well: " And also what about a more damage focused Chrono able to provide a lot of quickness and a good bit of alacrity"

“Well, here’s the nice thing. If you’re rotating things properly, you’ll finish a fight with still 15-20 seconds of alacrity ticking on you. You can additionally roll through your 3 lower cd shatters out of combat (assuming you keep away from the aoe radius of hitting things) to maintain around 50% uptime on alacrity for some time after that. This means that the 72s cooldown of mass invis suddenly drops to around 50 seconds. In some places, that’s enough for it to be ready by the next fight. In others…you’re certainly losing a little bit of utility, but it’s generally not the end of the world, especially if there’s a bit of trash to clear first.”

Still, there is quote a lot of times where it would simply be better to take a thief and keep your elite/utility off cd. Because there will be plenty of times where it won’t be off cd by the time the next boss fight is ready. Even with alacrity. I mean, how often does it take 50 seconds to get to the next boss?

I like the idea of this build and am interesting in giving it a shot (in addition to some the variations presented here).

I haven’t played in any of the betas yet, what is the damage like on the wells (calamity in particular)?

Hiemdal.4367:

I haven’t played in any of the betas yet, what is the damage like on the wells (calamity in particular)?

Meh.

Can you upload a video that is from the point of view of the person doing the rotations? It would be easier to evaluate.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Can you upload a video that is from the point of view of the person doing the rotations? It would be easier to evaluate.

My bad on this one Kent, I never thought to record it last BWE. I will first thing on the next one.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Jerus.4350:

Not disputing Alacrity + Quickness benefits, more the need for this level of up time and the value of shedding the defensive support. We don’t live in a vacuum of paper theory perfection.

Except, you’ve been talking more about offensive than defensive support.
Pyro has already conceded (long before you or French Fry came into the picture, this came up right at the start) that swapping for Feedback may be necessary.
Doing so is a compromise between the need for reflects and value of that improved offensive support. You can compromise further, if need be, by swapping an entire trait line and weapon-set to get focus reflects, as Pyro has also conceded. That’ll weaken your offensive support even further, at the gain of reflect support.

But if you really need more…

If it was worth bringing along inferior dps (guardian, mesmer) for reflects in some dungeons before Chrono, why isn’t it worth bringing along a guardian in addition to the Chrono? I’ve already demonstrated mathematically that the chronomancer is adding more dps to the whole group than another ele would (which means he’s adding more than any other class would either), so why not just bring along a guardian for reflects in those dungeons where Feedback+Alacrity isn’t enough? Indeed, the guardian’s reflects will be even better than usual, given the effect of Alacrity, and guardian dps is already known to be decent, so they’d presumably contribute decently when boosted by Alacrity and quickness.

Yes, I’m glad we settled that when more reflects are taken more reflects/projectile destruction will be taken. I believe this is a big thing and will be more like the main build because projectile destruction is a big thing. And yeah it goes to show it was worth taking a guardian whose main job is reflects in a dungeon even with inferior DPS. And its not worth swapping a guard for another ele at all. This would now put your comp into a chrono, guard, warrior, chaos mesmer, revenant, and thief. That’s NO eles. Your going to be lacking vulnerability, IBs, and FGSs ( a big thing, one of the reasons mesmer is taken is for portaling with FGS ). While you could just swap out staff for focus. And that’s another thing. Idk what you guys see in chaos. A tiny bit of boon duration that isn’t going to change anything and some might which the warrior can provide. Which leads us to this whole revenant thing. Let’s look at the comparison again.

1 ele, 1 “full DPS warrior” ( I’ll talk about this below ), 1 chaos chrono, 1 revenant, and 1 thief comp

Bonuses compared to the other comp: 150 ferocity, some extra warrior DPS ( like I said I’ll talk about this below ), and some extra vuln from revenant and warrior going axe mace ( tho overall think the 2 ele comp has better vuln )

2 ele, 1 PS warrior, 1 dueling/domination chrono, and 1 thief

Bonuses compared to the other comp: 150 power, Don’t have to stay within 600 range during the skip to the next boss, an additional 2 IBs, an additional 2 FGSs, and a additional glyph of storms ( so you shouldn’t be short of vulnerability in addition to the one air trait that provides vuln ). Oh and chrono does more DPS.

Ok, so first, this whole warrior full DPS thing. Literately, the only thing you gain DPS wise is burst mastery, scholar runes, and better DPS food. And second, you gain the ability to use axe mace for more vuln ( tho remember you actually are loosing vuln because you only have one glyph of storms ). Also remember, pure GS builds do more damage than GS axe/mace builds. So you lose some vuln and gain some extra DPS. Not to mention in a PS build you can still start the fight out with axe 2 and mace 4.

Two additional IBs increase the damage done/vuln output, two extra FGSs greatly increasess mobility which is actually a huge thing in dungeons ( especially if the FGS from the first ele isn’t off cd when the mesmer is going to portal ahead again ), and don’t underestimate the vuln from glyph of storms. Overall can cover vuln while the 1 ele comp won’t.

Another question is how exactly does revenant DPS compare to a eles? This is also presuming with 100% alacrity and 100% quickness. Because some classes gain more out of alacrity and quickness than others.

And last of all a DPS loss to mesmer/some extra utility from say more condition removal when you swap to mantra if you go with the one ele comp.

I find it hard to see the extra ferocity and warrior DPS being worth it over all the other stuff. Which is why I believe revenant will NOT be meta nor will you have chaos equipped so often.

Oh, and one more thing. You make it seam that staff would still be better than an additional offhand if you don’t need the extra projectile destruction? I don’t see what you see in staff. The DPS doesn’t compare to an additional offhand at all. The only way I would take staff is if you have 5> condis on the boss and the boss dies before you would be able to summon a 2nd phantasm from that 2nd offhand. So in fact staff is limited more in this build than right now, and we all now how much staff is used now while fighting.

EDIT: also, another thing to take into account is revenants DPS probably took into account the quickness it can get. But all classes will be getting quickness. So yeah, emphasis on the how much damage does revenant do compared to a ele with perma quickness and alacrity

Fay.2357:

Hiemdal.4367:

I haven’t played in any of the betas yet, what is the damage like on the wells (calamity in particular)?

Meh.

Ha. Ok – I figured their main benefit would be the alacrity/condition cleanse/heal but some extra damage would be nice. At least its AOE and consistent.

Staff allows me to summon 2 illusions at 1200 range while approaching a boss. This is actually really key in being able to properly initiate the combo at the start of a fight.

Also. The proper way is >5. The > sign can be replaced with the words ‘greater than’. The way you write it it would be ‘5 greater than conditions on the boss’. This makes no sense.

Fay.2357:

Staff allows me to summon 2 illusions at 1200 range while approaching a boss. This is actually really key in being able to properly initiate the combo at the start of a fight.

Also. The proper way is >5. The > sign can be replaced with the words ‘greater than’. The way you write it it would be ‘5 greater than conditions on the boss’. This makes no sense.

In my version of the build, you can just summon your phantasms when walking to the boss ( presuming you don’t have to wait for the boss to activate, in which case it doesn’t matter anyway ), and sword 3.

EDIT: or you could even start off with say staff or pistol to summon additional stuff and then swap back to your main sets before you get in combat.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

I should note that for both my math and Pyro’s, any departure from auto-attacking will give ground to the scepter.
Summoning phantasms, casting wells, casting mantras, blocking, etc. etc. will raise Scepter’s level, because CI has better dps than BF, while sword AA beats scepter AA. So if you don’t AA much, scepter wins.

On the other hand, any dodging that you need to do takes away from the scepter. Blurred frenzy being a minor increase in dps over the autoattack is when it’s used in place of the autoattack.

Blurred frenzy lets you maintain DPS uptime in situations where you would otherwise need to spend time dodging.

Eponet.4829:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

I should note that for both my math and Pyro’s, any departure from auto-attacking will give ground to the scepter.
Summoning phantasms, casting wells, casting mantras, blocking, etc. etc. will raise Scepter’s level, because CI has better dps than BF, while sword AA beats scepter AA. So if you don’t AA much, scepter wins.

On the other hand, any dodging that you need to do takes away from the scepter. Blurred frenzy being a minor increase in dps over the autoattack is when it’s used in place of the autoattack.

Blurred frenzy lets you maintain DPS uptime in situations where you would otherwise need to spend time dodging.

Yeah, good point. I think the discussion over scepter kinda died to its not useful, but this is the final nail in the coffin. Scepter is still in the trashcan for pve.

Eponet.4829:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

I should note that for both my math and Pyro’s, any departure from auto-attacking will give ground to the scepter.
Summoning phantasms, casting wells, casting mantras, blocking, etc. etc. will raise Scepter’s level, because CI has better dps than BF, while sword AA beats scepter AA. So if you don’t AA much, scepter wins.

On the other hand, any dodging that you need to do takes away from the scepter. Blurred frenzy being a minor increase in dps over the autoattack is when it’s used in place of the autoattack.

Blurred frenzy lets you maintain DPS uptime in situations where you would otherwise need to spend time dodging.

Unless it involves a flurry of attacks, don’t forget Illusionary Counter. It’s on a much lower CD than Blurred Frenzy and conjures a Clone to beef up your constant Shattering.

And I think you’ll find you spend much more time not autoattacking and casting other skills than dodging either way.

Embolism.8106:

Eponet.4829:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

I should note that for both my math and Pyro’s, any departure from auto-attacking will give ground to the scepter.
Summoning phantasms, casting wells, casting mantras, blocking, etc. etc. will raise Scepter’s level, because CI has better dps than BF, while sword AA beats scepter AA. So if you don’t AA much, scepter wins.

On the other hand, any dodging that you need to do takes away from the scepter. Blurred frenzy being a minor increase in dps over the autoattack is when it’s used in place of the autoattack.

Blurred frenzy lets you maintain DPS uptime in situations where you would otherwise need to spend time dodging.

Unless it involves a flurry of attacks, don’t forget Illusionary Counter. It’s on a much lower CD than Blurred Frenzy and conjures a Clone to beef up your constant Shattering.

And I think you’ll find you spend much more time not autoattacking and casting other skills than dodging either way.

Well, tbh I’m not convinced that we can’t occupy a fair bit of time summoning and shattering phantasms. I was able to get a really fast rotation going on golems with iSwordsmen+Persistence of Memory+Chronophantasma, and it was pretty cool.
So between MoP, CI, and Phantasms, you’ll have a LOT of space filled up.
I’m working on a rotation that just combines CI and MoP, and it’s looking competitive with sword AA+BF so far (partly because of the HM bonus).
I’d be interested to see what kind of damage the phantasm rotation would add into that, but that math is gonna be…really hard.

Embolism.8106:

Eponet.4829:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

I should note that for both my math and Pyro’s, any departure from auto-attacking will give ground to the scepter.
Summoning phantasms, casting wells, casting mantras, blocking, etc. etc. will raise Scepter’s level, because CI has better dps than BF, while sword AA beats scepter AA. So if you don’t AA much, scepter wins.

On the other hand, any dodging that you need to do takes away from the scepter. Blurred frenzy being a minor increase in dps over the autoattack is when it’s used in place of the autoattack.

Blurred frenzy lets you maintain DPS uptime in situations where you would otherwise need to spend time dodging.

Unless it involves a flurry of attacks, don’t forget Illusionary Counter. It’s on a much lower CD than Blurred Frenzy and conjures a Clone to beef up your constant Shattering.

And I think you’ll find you spend much more time not autoattacking and casting other skills than dodging either way.

“and conjures a clone”

Exactly my point. The skill might aswell not exist for pve then.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

“and conjures a clone”

Exactly my point. The skill might aswell not exist for pve then.

Enough. This is wrong, and has been every time you mentioned it.

At the rate a support chrono needs to shatter, you will NOT be getting 3 phantasms up at any given moment unless you totally screw up your rotations, or at the beginning of a fight (where you don’t need to worry about summoning a clone).

I tested the phantasm rotations extensively, and it was tricky enough to keep up 2 phantasms persistently with that as my only objective. This experience was repeated by many of the people discussing the uses of chronophantasma during the BWEs.
The only way to keep up 3 phantasms was the usual method: wait until they recharge. Shattering with any kind of speed just cuts down the phantasms, and puts you back at square one.

All you are accomplishing with your dogmatic insistence is proving to us that you didn’t actually try it.

There is nothing wrong with summoning clones, because the only time this build might have 3 phantasms is right at the start, when you shatter them immediately.

Edit: I should note that I WAS able to keep 3 phantasms up at a time by rotating between iDefender, Signet of Ether, and (sometimes) iDisenchanter. That was a huge waste of utility slots, however, as a clone serves just as well for shatters, meaning I was spending a slot for a single occasional attack from iDisenchanter or iDefender, and a little extra recharge on all phantasms. It’s also not an option available to the well support build, for obvious reasons.

Since there seems to be a conspicuous habit of not reading long posts, let me Tl;dr alpha’s post for you:

Tl;dr: You’re wrong. You were wrong the first time, the second time, and you’re still wrong.

Plus his argument is solely based on “Clones are bad because you can Shatter Phantasms TWICE!!!” while completely ignoring the fact that Ether Clone churns out an Illusion probably every second with Quickness, despite me pointing it out to him a few times.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

“and conjures a clone”

Exactly my point. The skill might aswell not exist for pve then.

Enough. This is wrong, and has been every time you mentioned it.

At the rate a support chrono needs to shatter, you will NOT be getting 3 phantasms up at any given moment unless you totally screw up your rotations, or at the beginning of a fight (where you don’t need to worry about summoning a clone).

I tested the phantasm rotations extensively, and it was tricky enough to keep up 2 clones persistently with that as my only objective. This experience was repeated by many of the people discussing the uses of chronophantasma during the BWEs.
The only way to keep up 3 phantasms was the usual method: wait until they recharge. Shattering with any kind of speed just cuts down the phantasms, and puts you back at square one.

All you are accomplishing with your dogmatic insistence is proving to us that you didn’t actually try it.

There is nothing wrong with summoning clones, because the only time this build might have 3 phantasms is right at the start, when you shatter them immediately.

Edit: I should note that I WAS able to keep 3 phantasms up at a time by rotating between iDefender, Signet of Ether, and (sometimes) iDisenchanter. That was a huge waste of utility slots, however, as a clone serves just as well for shatters, meaning I was spending a slot for a single occasional attack from iDisenchanter or iDefender, and a little extra recharge on all phantasms. It’s also not an option available to the well support build, for obvious reasons.

I would like to see the rotation your using sometime. I have the feeling you see a shatter button available and are like, OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Lets go press this button!! Rather than thinking if it would be better to wait to shatter so they get in a extra attack. And no I haven’t played the betas because I haven’t pre ordered. I think what needs to be done is for the third beta to come around and someone records 2 perfect DPS tests vs the golems in HotM. Then we add up the coefficients and see the results. I just find it hard to believe you will never have 3 phantasms up. And that moves us onto the next thing. What is the ideal rotation? Kinda hard to discuss without actually playing it and testing.

EDIT: Fay, since there seems to be a conspicuous habit of not reading long posts, let me Tl;dr my post for you: You’re wrong. You were wrong the first time, the second time, and you’re still wrong. : P I’m sure we will get absolutely nowhere if this tl;dr im right your wrong because who knows why thing continues. If this is all that your going to do then I think it would be better to go somewhere else. Or you know you could just say why you think I’m wrong? But no! Feels much better to say your wrong because reasons which I can’t say because who knows why.

EDIT 2 @ embolism: So let me get this strait. Your saying because you do something your not wanting to do in this build every second it’s somehow is now good to do?

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

And no I haven’t played the betas because I haven’t pre ordered.

/facepalm

Your response in a nutshell:

I haven’t tried it and have zero justification or proof for my beliefs, but I still think you’re wrong.

/facepalm

Fay.2357:

Your response in a nutshell:

I haven’t tried it and have zero justification or proof for my beliefs, but I still think you’re wrong.

/facepalm

Its probably better to sometimes wait to shatter so the phantasms can get in a extra hit if there attack is up in x time. I don’t think he took this into account? And this is how you respond to it? Like literately, we could just wait for the third beta, record a video, and see what the optimal rotation is. I find it hard to believe you won’t have 3 phantasms up at all. This is presuming after all scepter does do more damage overall which has still yet to be determined. Like????? Oh no but wait I have to have preordered the expansion because otherwise my opinion on beta stuff is useless! Duh. Seams logical to me. I am now 101% sure I am getting trolled. But hey, don’t let me stop you. I’m dying laughing! Great afternoon entertainment.

EDIT: can we atleast confirm now tho that staff isn’t going to be used nor will chaos be taken in the main build?

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I would like to see the rotation your using sometime. I have the feeling you see a shatter button available and are like, OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Lets go press this button!!

And with that insult, you just went from being wrong and pedantic to being a total kittenbag. Good job, that’ll really sink your credibility.

And you know what? That’s enough for me.

I had a post written about my findings, about the many, many different rotations I tested, and even why trying to keep up 3 phantasms just ended up getting me less phantasm time (here’s a clue: swapping weapons to get a 3rd phantasm locks me out of the first weapon, and only one viable weapon in this build has a low enough final cooldown to keep up a constant rotation. So we’re increasing our wait time, which loses alacrity and quickness ground, and pretty soon you’re actually losing dps versus a build that just puts its phantasms in and lets them run), and did my usual line by line.
Heck, tbh I’m not even done trying to get 3 phantasms up in a viable shatter build, but even if I succeed it won’t help the chrono support, because they need to shatter frequently in order to get the alacrity they need to be ready for the next fight.

But you know what? Kitten it.

You just threw away civility, and with it went any reason I had to be civil. So I’m done.

It’s clear you have nothing left to contribute. You have spent this entire thread making ungrounded assertions, and steadfastly refusing to do the math or the testing to back up your assertions.
But it’s worse, because your arguments have been—for the most part—terrible.

But thank you for insulting me, because that made me realize: you’re not worth it.

Good bye bad fry, and good luck participating in future conversation with the terrible credibility you’ve established here.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I would like to see the rotation your using sometime. I have the feeling you see a shatter button available and are like, OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Lets go press this button!!

And with that insult, you just went from being wrong and pedantic to being a total kittenbag. Good job, that’ll really sink your credibility.

And you know what? That’s enough for me.

I had a post written about my findings, about the many, many different rotations I tested, and even why trying to keep up 3 phantasms just ended up getting me less phantasm time (here’s a clue: swapping weapons to get a 3rd phantasm locks me out of the first weapon, and only one viable weapon in this build has a low enough final cooldown to keep up a constant rotation. So we’re increasing our wait time, which loses alacrity and quickness ground, and pretty soon you’re actually losing dps versus a build that just puts its phantasms in and lets them run), and did my usual line by line.
Heck, tbh I’m not even done trying to get 3 phantasms up in a viable shatter build, but even if I succeed it won’t help the chrono support, because they need to shatter frequently in order to get the alacrity they need to be ready for the next fight.

But you know what? Kitten it.

You just threw away civility, and with it went any reason I had to be civil. So I’m done.

It’s clear you have nothing left to contribute. You have spent this entire thread making ungrounded assertions, and steadfastly refusing to do the math or the testing to back up your assertions.
But it’s worse, because your arguments have been—for the most part—terrible.

But thank you for insulting me, because that made me realize: you’re not worth it.

Good bye bad fry, and good luck participating in future conversation with the terrible credibility you’ve established here.

I think at this point we have both insulted each other, probably for the same reason. Anyway, this puts us at a crossroad. We could either A, continue to insult each other, B, walk away, or C stop.

“Good bye bad fry, and good luck participating in future conversation with the terrible credibility you’ve established here.”

Oh trust me, I think we have both established the fact we like to get the maximum lols from people we deam are trolls.

“swapping weapons to get a 3rd phantasm locks me out of the first weapon’

Yeah, for the added benefit of either 1 or two phantasms ( depending which heal skill you take ).

’You just threw away civility, and with it went any reason I had to be civil."

That was gone a long time before now between each other lol.

“Heck, tbh I’m not even done trying to get 3 phantasms up in a viable shatter build, but even if I succeed it won’t help the chrono support, because they need to shatter frequently in order to get the alacrity they need to be ready for the next fight.”

A few second extra alacrity isn’t going to make a huge change. I personally would love to continue the conversation, but yeah I don’t see it going anywhere. Hey, if nothing else, it atleast looks like I convinced you guys staff isn’t good in the build.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I think at this point we have both insulted each other, probably for the same reason. Anyway, this puts us at a crossroad. We could either A, continue to insult each other, B, walk away, or C stop.

B.

Until you start backing up your claims with math or evidence, you cannot convince me to read the things you say, as I have been wasting a great deal of my time reading them and responding to them, and it hasn’t been worth it, and won’t be worth it until you start backing up the kitten you say.

When you do start doing that, you can get my attention again by prefacing your post with “Look Guys, Math!” or “Look Guys, Video Evidence!” or “Look Guys, I Tried It!”.
You’d better mean it though, because I’ll only give you one chance to “cry wolf” before even that won’t work.

Alternatively, you could just walk away also.

I am curious and will give the build a try during next BWE. Based on the Chrono traitline and what Robert Gee says about the shield and also the shield skills, I figured the elite spec is meant to be a more support/utility/control role than damage. It reminds me of the battery role that GW1 necromancers had ( http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Battery ), only instead of giving energy/adrenaline, chrono gives alacrity, quickness, and other stuff, including some damage. I am already impressed with it during BWE2, but after the news of upcoming changes from Geesus, I’m more excited for chronomancer and have been doing some various buildcraftings while also looking at other people’s builds. I have a feeling I’ll be spending more time testing stuff out than playing on my actual toons during that beta weekend. (Ack, my buildcrafting/testing urges are coming back at a rapid pace!)

AlphatheWhite.9351:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

I think at this point we have both insulted each other, probably for the same reason. Anyway, this puts us at a crossroad. We could either A, continue to insult each other, B, walk away, or C stop.

B.

Until you start backing up your claims with math or evidence, you cannot convince me to read the things you say, as I have been wasting a great deal of my time reading them and responding to them, and it hasn’t been worth it, and won’t be worth it until you start backing up the kitten you say.

When you do start doing that, you can get my attention again by prefacing your post with “Look Guys, Math!” or “Look Guys, Video Evidence!” or “Look Guys, I Tried It!”.
You’d better mean it though, because I’ll only give you one chance to “cry wolf” before even that won’t work.

Alternatively, you could just walk away also.

See, that’s the thing. I’m not the guy that has to show math. Your the one suggesting a change to scepter on chrono over the current mesmer sword. All I’m doing is trying to show without math why I believe scepter will not be taken. Same goes for this whole chaos thing. And there was some stuff said that seamed really trolly, so yes, things got heated pretty quickly.

Holy dingaling.

SEEM

DEEM

Fay.2357:

Holy dingaling.

SEEM

DEEM

What’s a dingaling? I want a dingaling!! Also, I didn’t use the word deem in my post so why are you trying to correct my spelling on that? And yes I spelled the one thing wrong is that really all this is going to turn into? Like I said, I’m still open to discussion if you want to.

There’s one question about the warrior that bugs me the most – you try to give him an option not to trait for PS … but … what about EA? :/ I doubt any dmg build will deal so much more damage to ignore EA, a party wide ~5% dmg boost.

Xyonon.3987:

There’s one question about the warrior that bugs me the most – you try to give him an option not to trait for PS … but … what about EA? :/ I doubt any dmg build will deal so much more damage to ignore EA, a party wide ~5% dmg boost.

Yeah, this was something I was thinking about, but for some reason I was thinking that would mean taking strength runes and might food. I would expect this to be better. That being said I still think PS will be meta.

Xyonon.3987:

There’s one question about the warrior that bugs me the most – you try to give him an option not to trait for PS … but … what about EA? :/ I doubt any dmg build will deal so much more damage to ignore EA, a party wide ~5% dmg boost.

I made a response to this earlier, but I think the waves of highly intellectual discussion may have obscured it.

The primary difference would be allowing the warrior to do maximum dps rotations with axe instead of being stuck in GS for the might generation. It also might open up rune/sigil options.