Guild Wars 2

GalloGSM.8139:

EasymodeX.4062:

I find phantasms and shatters to work just fine together if you can time your abilities.

Perhaps it’s your build and/or playstyle that doesn’t synergize.

Destroying something that is supposed to be a source of consistent damage doesn’t synergise at all, no matter how you look at it.

You may shatter away phantasms at specific moments and find it to be useful, but the concepts still clash.

If Phantasms actually stuck around after their target died and re-selected a new target, this conclusion would make more sense. But they don’t.

Regular, run of the mill fights versus a mob out in the field shouldn’t last longer than your Phantasm refresh timer. So fire one off, let it have its series of attacks once or twice (while you are hopefully attacking and not just twiddling your thumbs), then Shatter.

EasymodeX.4062:

Are you sure phantasms are supposed to be a source of consistent damage?

You can re-summon them on short cooldowns (most of them), and they die easily, or can be destroyed for additional effects.

Perhaps you think they are pets like rangers?

If Phantasms weren’t meant to be a source of consistent damage would they deal higher damage than clones? No, they wouldn’t. Re-summoning them on a short cool down means you’re still using them as consistent damage.

They are there to be a main damage source for mesmers, there is a reason they have a different name, look different and have different effects. Destroying them along with things that are made to be disposable (clones) makes no sense.

Ranger pet’s are permanent, Phantasms aren’t – you know that. Patronising me doesn’t support your argument.

Somna.5168:

If Phantasms actually stuck around after their target died and re-selected a new target, this conclusion would make more sense. But they don’t.

Regular, run of the mill fights versus a mob out in the field shouldn’t last longer than your Phantasm refresh timer. So fire one off, let it have its series of attacks once or twice (while you are hopefully attacking and not just twiddling your thumbs), then Shatter.

Phantasms will die at the end of a fight with a mob anyway, so shattering them makes sense because you’ll be getting an effect for killing something that was going to die anyway.

Shattering a big source of your damage to daze a mob as it’s about to use a big ability in the middle of a long fight makes no sense because you’re basically resetting your damage output.

EasymodeX.4062:

Are you sure phantasms are supposed to be a source of consistent damage?

I don’t care what they are supposed to be, but as long as they do insane damage and you can stack 3 of them, I’m gonna be using them.

Because really, when I have a warden denying and reflecting all damage of a champion while doing really good damage, while my 2 warlocks are spiking the enemy like crazy, why would I ever shatter all 3 of them for a daze that doesn’t stack?

Clones and phantasms should not be on the same limit because they are incomparable. Phantasms should be summons that haunt your targets with utility and a bit of damage. Clones should be the main mechanic of the mesmer that you can cast and shatter in various ways.

It doesn’t really matter how phantasms are separated from the same 3-limit as clones. Whether you can only have 1 type of each phantasm at a time, or 1 type of each on a enemy or even a separate limit of 3.

If Phantasms weren’t meant to be a source of consistent damage would they deal higher damage than clones? No, they wouldn’t. Re-summoning them on a short cool down means you’re still using them as consistent damage.

Perhaps we should clarify whether we are talking about consistent (reliable) damage or consistent (sustained) damage.

Of course they are reliable damage, but they are only notable for sustained damage if you spec for Phantasmal Fury and Phantasmal Haste.

They are there to be a main damage source for mesmers, there is a reason they have a different name, look different and have different effects. Destroying them along with things that are made to be disposable (clones) makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense because phantasms are also disposable. They are simple something you have to time, whereas clones demand less precision with timing.

Ranger pet’s are permanent, Phantasms aren’t – you know that. Patronising me doesn’t support your argument.

I’m not patronizing you — you are the one treating your phantasms as if they were permanent, and you are valuing them as a permanent function.

Shattering a big source of your damage to daze a mob as it’s about to use a big ability in the middle of a long fight makes no sense because you’re basically resetting your damage output.

Except you can resummon the phantasms again immediately because the cooldown on most of them is pretty low. So you “reset” your damage output for all of ~1.5 seconds. Oh no! Given that default phantasm attack cooldowns are 6 seconds, and that fresh phantasms attack immediately, you’re not losing any phantasm damage output at all. In fact, you’re gaining output. In addition to the shatter.

Oh my.

The problem is not treating phantasms as a significant damage source.

The problem is treating phantasms as individual permanent damage bots, as if they were pets.

This should only be the case for phantasm army builds that try to maintain 3 phantasms. Which, of course, is silly for most relevant gameplay, but people seem attached to the notion.

See, for example, you get this guy:

Because really, when I have a warden denying and reflecting all damage of a champion while doing really good damage, while my 2 warlocks are spiking the enemy like crazy, why would I ever shatter all 3 of them for a daze that doesn’t stack?

Who:

1. Thinks that a champ won’t annihilate his iWarden, even though champs are almost universally coded with multiple attack types beyond range projectiles, nevermind slinging a shot at the iWarden between flurries. He extends this assumption by fabricating a scenario where his damage actually matters, yet somehow he has 3 DPS phantasms up (you can get 3 up without issue when it’s 40 people vs. champion, but in those situations, you can autoattack and get gold contribution, so who cares?).

2. Does not understand that he can re-summon the Warlock and Warden within 1.5s of the Shatter, refreshing 2 of 3 phantasms (why did he even wait to get 3 up in the first place?), and immediately triggering an additional attack. This accelerates his total phantasm damage for that segment such that it’s as if he has 3 phantasms, instead of only re-summoning 2.

3. Does not realize that the Daze will be staggered since the iWarden is presumably in melee or close to melee, whereas the iWarlocks are presumably at range (or at least one of them).

4. Optionally, he could be trying to solo a champion using a triple phantasm build. This is funny.

EasymodeX.4062:

Except you can resummon the phantasms again immediately because the cooldown on most of them is pretty low. So you “reset” your damage output for all of ~1.5 seconds. Oh no! Given that default phantasm attack cooldowns are 6 seconds, and that fresh phantasms attack immediately, you’re not losing any phantasm damage output at all. In fact, you’re gaining output. In addition to the shatter.

People are not talking about the situations that shatter builds encounter, where you have maybe 1 phantasm and 2 clones. In that situation shattering is obviously useful> But when you have 3 phantasms up you don’t really want to be shattering them, especially when you have multiple versions of the same phantasm or a weapon swap cooldown.

You don’t have 3 phantasms up in fights that matter.

And, it would have been more efficient to shatter when you had 2 phantasms up with the re-summons off cooldown.

Also, time your weapon swaps.

Phantasms -are- permanent as long as their target is alive, they aren’t forced to die or are killed. Having 3 phantasms out, destroying them all and summon 1 phantasm will reduce your damage out put a lot.

Here’s something for you that might make you see my point of view:

Clone summoning abilities all have a secondary effect (apart from Mirror Images because it summons 2) this is because clones are weak and disposable.

Phantasm summon spells don’t have a secondary effect because what they create is strong.

This alone shows that phantasms and clones are not one and the same, they shouldn’t be valued the same because even Arena net doesn’t.

Having 3 phantasms out, destroying them all and summon 1 phantasm will reduce your damage out put a lot.

Which is why no one does it by intention.

Duh?

EasymodeX.4062:

Having 3 phantasms out, destroying them all and summon 1 phantasm will reduce your damage out put a lot.

Which is why no one does it by intention.

Duh?

That’s exactly what i was saying! No one would shatter with 3 Phantasms up because it doesn’t synergise!

GalloGSM.8139:

Phantasms -are- permanent as long as their target is alive, they aren’t forced to die or are killed. Having 3 phantasms out, destroying them all and summon 1 phantasm will reduce your damage out put a lot.

Here’s something for you that might make you see my point of view:

Clone summoning abilities all have a secondary effect (apart from Mirror Images because it summons 2) this is because clones are weak and disposable.

Phantasm summon spells don’t have a secondary effect because what they create is strong.

This alone shows that phantasms and clones are not one and the same, they shouldn’t be valued the same because even Arena net doesn’t.

That’s not entirely true.

Phantasmal Mage summons a mage that applies Confusion and Retaliation.

Phantasmal Berserker Cripples.

And all of the Phantasms have attacks that are combo finishers (except maybe Warlock?). Quite a few of the clone creation abilities do too, like Illusionary Leap and that Staff #2 ability.

That’s exactly what i was saying! No one would shatter with 3 Phantasms up because it doesn’t synergise!

No, no one would only resummon 1 phantasm.

Shattering with 3 is fine if you resummon 2, but this requires you to actually be mentally aware of your existing phantasms finishing their attacks, and be aware of the cooldown on your two phantasm abilities.

GalloGSM.8139:

snip
Shattering a big source of your damage to daze a mob as it’s about to use a big ability in the middle of a long fight makes no sense because you’re basically resetting your damage output.

This is a judgement call. How “big” is the big ability you are interrupting? Could it wipe the party? Could it prevent someone from rezzing a teammate in time? Is the ability going off going to make the fight harder in the long run? Could the attack devastate your party with conditions that you’d then have to spend DPS time on removing? Are your Phantasms going to possibly die by being in the line of fire anyway?

I would gladly sacrifice a few seconds of DPS damage that I can then resummon on a low CD in any of those situations. And that is just Diversion. That doesn’t count Mind Wrack (being swarmed by trash mobs and desperately need to get their HP down NOW? Need to finish off a mob before it heals? Phantasm just do a long-cool down attack and you need to start bursting?), Cry of Frustration (is the enemy about to go into “spam attack” mode? If so, this can possibly end up doing just as much, if not MORE damage than the Phantasms to a GROUP) and Distortion (usually of the “if I don’t use it I will die” variety)

TL;DR: Shatters are context sensitive. Assuming 3 Phantasms > Any Shatter in every situation is naive.

Or you just take the daze mantra so you can keep all of your DPS up and actually have a daze that is instant.

Same goes for the mind wrack, after putting up 3 phantasms I can just focus on dmg and combo fields by using weapons and utility skills. There’s no real reason to be trading in my existing phantasms for effects that are hardly better then things I already have.

The reason why I don’t shatter my warlock and recast a new one is that I’d rather have 2 warlocks up.

Oh yes, let’s start wasting utility slots because we can’t manage our existing abilities to use what’s free on F1-F4.

EasymodeX.4062:

Oh yes, let’s start wasting utility slots because we can’t manage our existing abilities to use what’s free on F1-F4.

They wouldn’t give it to us on our utility if that was the case!

GalloGSM.8139:

EasymodeX.4062:

Oh yes, let’s start wasting utility slots because we can’t manage our existing abilities to use what’s free on F1-F4.

They wouldn’t give it to us on our utility if that was the case!

Or they give it to us as redundancy to help with the (currently non-utilized/underperforming) “interruption” build that Domination line hints at. Or because some people just want “more” interrupts.

How is having a skill that can instantly daze an opponent even while knocked down or channeling another skill considered a waste? Let alone comparable to a skill that relies on you already having a clone aimed at the specific enemy and having that clone reach that enemy in the exact time to interrupt?

Shatters are simply not efficient when you have phantasms out. Shattering will mean I have to waste time resummoning the phantasms and switching weapons. That is time better spend on utility and weapon skills. You are also ignoring the fact that phantasms die. When they die I want to resummon them. If they didnt die I want to stack them. Shattering doesnt come into play as it is not only unnecessary, but counter-productive.

How is having a skill that can instantly daze an opponent even while knocked down or channeling another skill considered a waste?

Because you already have F3 which does it while knocked down or channeling another skill, so you could use the utility slot on something more interesting like Feedback, Null Field, etc, unless you really want to have an extra 2 dazes, which is perfectly fine. However, using it as a crutch because you can’t play the class is wasting resources.

Shatters are simply not efficient when you have phantasms out. Shattering will mean I have to waste time resummoning the phantasms and switching weapons.

I’m not sure how it’s “wasting time” when you reset the attack cooldown on the phantasms. Resummoning them is something you want to do regardless of shatters or not, because you get more phantasm attacks in.

That is time better spend on utility and weapon skills.

Typically no. In the vast majority of cases, you’ll have time where you just use filler autoattacks, and 1 spam by and large sucks unless you’re Staff with Elasticity.

You are also ignoring the fact that phantasms die. When they die I want to resummon them.

The context we are currently discussing involves 3 Phantasms. Hence, you are not in a situation where your Phantasms die with any regularity. Therefore your segment of argument here is irrelevant by the conditions of the rest of your argument.

If they didnt die I want to stack them. Shattering doesnt come into play as it is not only unnecessary, but counter-productive.

Poorly timed shatters with poorly-timed weapon swaps and poorly-timed clone summoning is counter-productive, yes.

Poor timing is counter-productive to effective shatter use.

Phantasm fire-and-forget afk dps is a good band-aid for poor timing, yes.

Mesmers have great gimmicks right now. It’s only a matter of time before they ask to see the hat we pulled the rabbit out of and the jig is up! =p

EasymodeX.4062:

long post

Illusions die, their enemies die, so getting 3 phantasms up is tricky. If a boss whipes all your phantasms you want to have them back up asap and not wait because you’ve just shattered them. That’s all my point was.

Are people saying shatter is never useful? No. Are people saying everyone who uses shatter is bad? No. The only point being made is that the shatter and phantasms mechanics conflict with each other. Something you cannot deny. So the question is how much they conflict and if changes would bring improvement. Seeing as the clone/shatter mechanics already bring a great deal of “choice” in terms of timing your shatters (something you’ve correctly said takes a lot of skill), I don’t see why adding a phantasm mechanic on top of that is feasible. In fact it takes a bit away from the shatter mechanic we like.

Here’s a random idea:
Phantasms do not count to shatters or the 3-illusion limit. This allows for buffing the shatters and nerfing the phantasms. Phantasms will be illusions that haunt the enemy with utility and light damage as they were designed to be. You can only have 1 phantasm up from each type.

Timing with clones doesn’t take much, if any, skill tbh. Half the timing equation is centered on phantasm uptime management.

Clone timing is only slightly more interesting if you are using a Shatter heavy build, which is not really the current discussion.

Edit:

That aside, as you say, maintaining 3 phantasms in any fight that matters is actually hard to the point that it’s infeasible and unlikely to actually have 3 phantasms up. Because we’re not even talking about a mega AOE wipe of your phantasms. We’re talking about an add looking crosswise or cleaving a random phantasm instantly, or the boss taking a potshot and instantly erasing the phantasm.

Which begs the question why everyone is pretending that they are shattering their 3 phantasms that they never actually have.

The part where theorycraft fails is when you model and value situations that don’t actually happen, or that don’t have a real impact.

The only point being made is that the shatter and phantasms mechanics conflict with each other. Something you cannot deny.

They only conflict with each other if you treat the phantasms as ranger pets. I like shattering my phantasms on a consistent basis. I like the fact that I have several simultaneous illusion-generating mechanisms.

Phantasms are a notable source of damage, and it’s part of the class to manage their uptime. They are not meant to last any extended amount of time, really. That situation only happens in unusual and trivial encounters (unless you are cheesing an undefended siege engine, hurr hurr, which is when I swap traits for maximum phantasm army).

People that are still on the learning curve have a hard time getting a good feel for how they actually want to manage the phantasm uptime. There are many nuances with clone replacement and phantasm attack resets … the volume and nature of threads on this forum about the topic are a pretty obvious indicator that players are still learning.

Shrug.

I dislike shattering, but I disagree on most of the OP’s other points.

The real problem is how inapplicable most of the shatter spells are to a multitude of builds. They should remove the cooldown on Mind Wrack and make the other abilities spells that enhance illusion deaths; Mind Wrack should trigger all on-death abilities. This would make it so that even if you run a Phantasm build, the shatter spells are helpful.

EasymodeX.4062:

Timing with clones doesn’t take much, if any, skill tbh. Half the timing equation is centered on phantasm uptime management.

Clone timing is only slightly more interesting if you are using a Shatter heavy build, which is not really the current discussion.

Timing might not have been the correct way of phrasing it. What I meant was that to decide what shatter you use, when you shatter and when you expend your clones is already a decent “choice” mechanic.

EasymodeX.4062:

That aside, as you say, maintaining 3 phantasms in any fight that matters is actually hard to the point that it’s infeasible and unlikely to actually have 3 phantasms up. Because we’re not even talking about a mega AOE wipe of your phantasms. We’re talking about an add looking crosswise or cleaving a random phantasm instantly, or the boss taking a potshot and instantly erasing the phantasm.

Which begs the question why everyone is pretending that they are shattering their 3 phantasms that they never actually have.

Just a few minutes ago you were arguing that people who are putting up 3 phantasms should be shattering and re-summoning them instead of keeping them up. Now you are arguing that they shouldn’t even try because it’s not possible? If you have trouble understanding the point of the OP or some other poster please say so. This thread is about illustrating some problems with mesmer mechanics, not about winning a yes/no debate where you have to refute every sentence someone types.

EasymodeX.4062:

People that are still on the learning curve have a hard time getting a good feel for how they actually want to manage the phantasm uptime. There are many nuances with clone replacement and phantasm attack resets … the volume and nature of threads on this forum about the topic are a pretty obvious indicator that players are still learning.

Shrug.

Isn’t the entire point that shattering is usually detrimental to you phantasm uptime?

Just a few minutes ago you were arguing that people who are putting up 3 phantasms should be shattering and re-summoning them instead of keeping them up. Now you are arguing that they shouldn’t even try because it’s not possible?

Just a few minutes ago I decided to go along with the notion that a person already had 3 phantasms up.

The discussion shifted to an area where discussing the likelihood of actually have 3 up at any given time was worth commenting on. I was simply being amenable in the first place.

I could have originally said that “anyone who’s maintaining 3 phantasms up consistently could just afk and spam 111111 because they’re in a 50v1 zerg DE”.

If you have trouble understanding the point of the OP or some other poster please say so. This thread is about illustrating some problems with mesmer mechanics, not about winning a yes/no debate where you have to refute every sentence someone types.

I’m having trouble understanding why people don’t understand that phantasms have long attack delays and can be resummoned.

Isn’t the entire point that shattering is usually detrimental to you phantasm uptime?

Shattering is not usually detrimental to my phantasm uptime because I time my shatters for minimal phantasm downtime (and compared to afk phantasms, I actually gain phantasm attack time).

Empirically speaking, I never really had much trouble keeping 3 phantasms up.

I find that they die or my target dies tbh.

Unless I’m zerging a champ with 40 people.

Thank you for a few like minded thinkers.

Is the mesmer just a high skill cap profession or just counter intuitive?

Assumed mesmer concept- illusionary duelist giving you lose or lose situations

Assumed idea behind confusion- lose or lose situation, don’t fight back I’ll murder you, fight back and dig your own grave. Great. Lose-lose.

Assumed idea behind phantasms- either it makes your life difficult, or I will. Lose-lose.

Assumed idea behind clones- you either swing at empty air, or if you manage to find the real me, they all explode (shatter) in your face. Lose-lose.

Confusion operates on your opponent fighting you back, YET it would appear you are supposed to also prevent your opponent from fight back, meaning confusion is not as effective. (built in F3 shatter, various interrupts/locks available to mesmer, the +33% daze on the rune of mesmer kind of indicates inhibiting skill casting seems pretty built in).

Confusion is better than it was before though I don’t know if anyone has recently compared it to say, bleed in terms of damage.

Phantasms are in general most useful when they are out of alive. Shatters destroy them for often little and only situational benefit. Basically you can’t use clones to maximum efficiency and phantasms. Are we supposed to be pigeonholed into specializing into one or the other?

Clones are pretty useless outside of taking hits for you and otherwise playing shatterfodder. Basically mesmer gets turned into a lame minion bomber with its minions getting outrun. The problem with effective use of clones works against effective use of phantasms and vice versa.

Is the mesmer supposed to balance and juxtapose 2 mechanics that arguably work against each other or could this be considered bad design?

I like the idea of a highskill cap however parts of mesmer just seem unnecessarily difficult/counter intuitive to me if I want to be the best at whatever roles I wish to play.

TL:DR a lot of mesmer mechanics seem to arguably work against each other. Highskill cap/specialization required (while ignoring the other side) or just slightly flawed design?

I think the design is better than it appears on paper.

Not only does it have a high skillcap for people that want to maximize the class, but the class is effective enough with simple Phantasm army approaches.

McClearyUnderMistRaildexGun.2086:

TL:DR a lot of mesmer mechanics seem to arguably work against each other. Highskill cap/specialization required (while ignoring the other side) or just slightly flawed design?

It gives you options on what to specialize in, or accept that neither will be perfectly optimal but provides you versatility. It’s up to you to determine the opportunity cost and decide whether it makes sense which option to take at any given time. I know most of the people on this forum (like myself) are going to be Min-Maxers and the first thing Min-Maxers do is try to stack strength upon strength. This is why Phantasms are the most common build. They have obvious effects, and the manner in which you can stack them are obvious. Most Min-Maxers don’t “do” versatility/hybrid. Not many Min-Maxers used Bards in older D&D editions either, but they are invaluable in many roles.

On a more light-hearted note, I also find the whole confusion vs. daze/stun being “counter-intuitive” kind of funny. God forbid you have too MANY ways to make an enemy suffer. Oh dearie me, should I make it so they have a hard time attacking me at all, thus denying them DPS, or making it so they can continue doing DPS, at the cost doing damage to themselves? MESMERS MUST REALLY SUCK!

And it’s not even good min-maxing.

“it’s time to grow out of the flawed assumption that single-target-fragile-NPCs-that-die-when-target-dies-and-get-sacrificed-for-minion-bombing-maneuvers is a viable design for all forms of gameplay”

-I liked this so much that I loled out loud.. probably going to get fired now..

True that discarding your higher damage output phantasms for a lower output shatter isn’t logical… but think about what actually happens when you cast a 4th phantasm summon, you pretty much auto shatter the oldest one without any return..

Can you just shatter that one phantasm? No.. do you get anything back? No..

Discarding phantasms happen regularly anyways.. so people justify shattering at 3 active illusions to get some benefit back.

Discarding illusions to grant 4 seconds of distortion can sometimes be worth it, especially if a rogue decides to snare me for akittensession..

Though Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration are the most worthless ones.. their only exchange is for damage less than the phantasms used to fuel it.. even 1 phantasm in the mix makes the shatter questionable..

Why do our clones and phantasms occupy the same slots anyway? Anet’s clearly made a distinction between their functions, so why share the same slots for shattering?

Nice read, but I disagree. Shatters can be a little bugged but I work well with the class mechanic as is.

I think your problem might be that you don’t like the Mesmer anet made, and want them to change it to your liking. That is, you complain that we are all “forced” to use the class mechanic, when that’s true of all classes. Your argument, to me, reads like a ranger complaining he is forced to use a pet, or a guardian who hates virtues.

I think that the system is fun, and flexible. No matter my trait build there are times I makes sense to shatter and times it doesn’t. Those who say its a waste to shatter three phantasms are basing that on damage numbers – there is a lot more to it than damage. Distortion can keep me alive, confusion can force my opponent to stop spamming his burst chain, daze can save me or an ally from dying.

The game is new and nearly everything could stand some refinement and polish, which will happen with time. But I can’t agree at all with your premise that the illusion/shatter mechanic is fundamentally flawed. On the contrary I think it’s fun as kittens!

Helberus.4320:

Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration are the most worthless ones.. their only exchange is for damage less than the phantasms used to fuel it.. even 1 phantasm in the mix makes the shatter questionable..

Why do our clones and phantasms occupy the same slots anyway? Anet’s clearly made a distinction between their functions, so why share the same slots for shattering?

I disagree with Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration. If you need AoE damage and your Phantasms are iDuelist and iWarden, what point are they? Also, sometimes you need damage NOW, and Phantasms take their sweet time attacking. Cry of Frustration is also AoE if I’m not mistaken and fits in the situation where if they are spamming attacks, the damage output can be VERY considerable, though more useful for Condition builds where your power may be lacking.

As for distinguishing differences…it is so we can’t have our cake and eat it too. Do you need an effect now, or do you want to gamble that your Phantasms are going to get another shot at doing their thing (and are in the position to do their thing effectively)? It is also to discourage people from putting their eggs into the very-fragile basket of the all-Phantasm strategy. I know I open up with Phantasms, but if the situation calls for it, I shatter. It also ALLOWS for someone to go one route or the other.

This is actually the thing that bothers me. It seems that people are upset they can’t do both shatter builds AND having Phantasm-afk at the same time. If an Elementalist said he wanted to be able to burst people down from 100% to 0 like a Thief, AND also do top-tier condition damage, AND have survivability, AND receive daily massages from their favourite gosh darned masseuse, you’d say they were being unreasonable.

So ask yourself, why would that be any different than saying “Hey, I want to be able to have constant, high damage from all my Phantasms and I also want to have zero opportunity or damage costs on these abilities that are clearly scaled to have a cost to them vis-a-vis clone/Phantasm death. I also want a pony.” It doesn’t work that way. These are very strong effects (Guardian’s can help their allies block 1 attack on a high CD. Mesmers can become completely invulnerable for 3-4 seconds) and the cost in Phantasms/Clones is the price they come with. If you don’t think their worth it, you aren’t using them right or you have a beef with the multipliers/numbers involved.

Malakree.5912:

I feel like shatter should break all clones but not destroy the phantasms while giving you an effect based on the total number of illusions. This would make them way more useful for ALL builds of mesmer while also meaning the phantasm reload in the illusions tree isn’t so heavily misplaced it’s unreal. It would also make it a lot more viable to quick fire off the various shatter’s meaning that the fact mind wrack is so much better than cry of frustration doesn’t matter.

This wouldn’t really work well though because it means I can burn off F1-F4 in split-seconds, and immediately do it again if I have SoI available.

The Illusions need to die from the Shatter – or at least get stunned for a bit or something – or there is no inter-shatter delay.

No one mentioned how Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration scale with power/crit and malice respectively, so you can’t use both to their full potential?

Other than that I have no gripe with shatters or phantasms, although I completely agree with the sentiment that mesmer in GW2 is the exact opposite of mesmer in GW1.
The kitten if you do, kitten if you don’t decisions lie with the mesmer now, instead of the mesmerized.

@EasymodeX: I think you trivialize shattering. It’s not as straightforward as you suggest, and I don’t think people who cannot shatter perfectly should be sneered at.

True Seeker.3682:

This is actually the thing that bothers me. It seems that people are upset they can’t do both shatter builds AND having Phantasm-afk at the same time. If an Elementalist said he wanted to be able to burst people down from 100% to 0 like a Thief, AND also do top-tier condition damage, AND have survivability, AND receive daily massages from their favourite gosh darned masseuse, you’d say they were being unreasonable.

So ask yourself, why would that be any different than saying “Hey, I want to be able to have constant, high damage from all my Phantasms and I also want to have zero opportunity or damage costs on these abilities that are clearly scaled to have a cost to them vis-a-vis clone/Phantasm death. I also want a pony.” It doesn’t work that way. These are very strong effects (Guardian’s can help their allies block 1 attack on a high CD. Mesmers can become completely invulnerable for 3-4 seconds) and the cost in Phantasms/Clones is the price they come with. If you don’t think their worth it, you aren’t using them right or you have a beef with the multipliers/numbers involved.

Thank you for putting into words what I’ve been trying to say and probably failing at for a very long time. People want everything and then some.

I really need to stop visiting the forums, I’ve spent more time on here than actually playing and I’m starting to loathe the mesmer community, something I really don’t want to do as I’d much rather treat every one nicely rather than become jaded and bitter.

The traits are very contradicting to the class play style. You have increased attack speed for Phantasms (phantasmal haste), and increased dmg for having more illusions active (compounding power), and buffs for sacrificing illusions (Shattered strength), all in the same trait line, illusions. That makes no sense. Its a toss up between having 3 illusions up and sacrificing them, Its one or the other not both. Not to mention illusions shortens recharge on shattering so i assume its meant for a shattering build, yet its offering increasing dmg output for having more illusions up so why would you want to shatter them, it doenst make sense

Personally, I don’t find the “shatter build” vs “phantasm build” a helpful discussion. I’m sure both builds are distinctly viable and interesting to different players, but the conversation seems to inevitably descend into comparing damage per second or arguing over very specific theoretical situations.

My concern is that such a thing as a ‘shatter build’ even exists as a standalone pathway – is there such a thing as an ‘adrenaline build’, ‘pet build’ or ‘deathshroud build’? If there are, then I guess I’m not understanding the premise of what core profession mechanics are supposed to be, rather than supporting a variety of branching playstyles.

Perhaps my interpretation is wrong, but I have always seen the defining class mechanic of Mesmers being illusions. Not as pets, not as mines, not as resources, but just as illusions meant to deceive, punish or deny effectiveness to an opponent in new and interesting ways.

For that reason, I guess I did have quite a different expectation coming into GW2. I anticipated that the Mesmer mechanic would centre around creating, manipulating or managing illusions. After all, every build of Mesmer would use illusions, and presumably it would be the manner of how those illusions are used that differentiates each flavour of build. Unfortunately, this is not really how the profession works at the moment, at least in my experience.

The core mechanic of a Mesmer at the moment I would describe as consuming their own illusions in order to gain a temporary boon. Very useful and occasionally powerful boons – a slight damage boost, interrupt or shield – but not necessarily very ‘manipulative’ (although I accept that’s very subjective). That’s not to say I don’t enjoy playing them as it is now, clone-dancing amid a cloud of purple butterflies while evading an attacker is still a hell of a lot of fun, but at least for me the shatter skills hardly add anything to what I enjoy about the class.

I guess ultimately I don’t see why consuming illusions for temporary boons is the core element of all Mesmers, while creating and managing the effectiveness of your illusions seems to be scattered throughout the skill and trait tree. I don’t necessarily want permanent illusions, but I would personally love to be focused more on decisions about how I deploy my illusions than about the quantity I have out or what I can get once they explode.

Anyway, another thanks to the wonderful people who came up with the concept and most of its implementation – it is still the most unique and beautiful class I’ve seen in a very long time. Please don’t take these tweaking suggestions as detracting from the rest of your work!

I don’t understand why people are trying to make a straw man argument in a feedback forum. The point of the OP is very clear. Phantasm skills do not go well with the class mechanic. That is not comparable to power builds not going well with condition builds. Comments like “I really start to loathe the mesmer community” are really unwarranted. ArenaNet is more then capable of assessing the feedback correctly, there’s no need to attack the OP on his apparent skill.

RaCio.6891:

I don’t understand why people are trying to make a straw man argument in a feedback forum. The point of the OP is very clear. Phantasm skills do not go well with the class mechanic. That is not comparable to power builds not going well with condition builds. Comments like “I really start to loathe the mesmer community” are really unwarranted. ArenaNet is more then capable of assessing the feedback correctly, there’s no need to attack the OP on his apparent skill.

Whether or not it’s unwarranted doesn’t make it any less true. The things I read on these forums make me wonder why people are even bothering to play the class. Am I asserting that my opinion is the correct one or any better than theirs? No. For all I know, people who read what I write think to themselves “Man, I’m really starting to dislike this guy.” They probably think I don’t care about the class and don’t want to see it improve.

That’s the thing about arguments on the internet, they’re almost always subjective.

Also, I fail to see how a straw man argument has been made. In a game like this, just to simplify it, either there is something wrong with the mechanics/design, or there is something wrong with the player’s skill. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

Where some people see a mechanics/design issue, other people are seeing an issue in player skill. By pointing this out, we aren’t necessarily attacking the person in question. I’ve played a lot of games where I thought something was horribly broken or wrong, and then someone more experienced or generally better than me at the game points something out.

Is my saying “This game is broken for X reason” and then them telling me “Nothing is wrong, you just need to do this/learn to play better (and then being told how I could get better)” a straw man argument?

A lot of the frustration comes from the fact that some people are genuinely trying to help other people with very insightful suggestions but they just get ignored.

A lot of this is compounded by the fact that there are no hard numbers in these arguments. It’s almost entirely based on stuff people observed at one point and based on their feelings alone. There are no charts or graphs showing what is actually more effective rotation/skill wise, etc. Some of this is probably due to ANet’s design philosophy for the game.

What makes that even MORE frustrating is the fact that ANet has been pretty open on their design philosophy from the get-go and people are still whining.

Not everything is a straw man argument and I can easily counter that by you going around accusing everyone of making one, you’re in turn doing it yourself. Accusing other people of using them in an attempt to lessen the impact of their argument.

Would it be more constructive if people posted the builds that they were using that they’re toting success with?

I think a lot of us who have never tried a shatter build for dungeons because Phantasm traits seem to mesh better (for me at least) would like to see what traits you’d expect to pick up.

The cooldown managment isn’t so much a problem for me but I’m not sure which traits to take to have a successful dungeon build. Or which weapons to bring along, does focus fit in a shatter build because I’m really enjoying the ranged shut down it brings with its respective trait.

Edit : Some tips on dealing with all these “walking wasteland” bosses would be appreciated as well. Unless clone death is really the only way to deal with this, which would make me sad.

The shatter system is absurd and using it can be self-defeating in certain builds (outside of obvious Distortion uses).
It also seems to favor power builds since confusion shatter has longer recharge for no reason. Guardian with his virtues is the only other class, where pushing the F buttons has any sort of drawback and that doesn’t come even close to how tough the trade is on mesmer.

You’re also spot on about traits. If you’ve ever played a Guardian, you know that a guardian with 0 traits is 100% functional, but deals somewhat less damage. Mesmer, on the other hand, is completely trait locked. Like if I am making a build that uses shatters I can’t possibly make it without 20 points in duelling to get clone on dodge. Condtion damage build is only possible with bleed on crit trait. The most bizarre traits are the ones that trigger on clone death. They basically force the player to not use the class mechanic of shatter. That is just absurd.

Roven Leafsong.8917:

My concern is that such a thing as a ‘shatter build’ even exists as a standalone pathway – is there such a thing as an ‘adrenaline build’, ‘pet build’ or ‘deathshroud build’?

There are such builds. They are the ones which trait the mechanic to gain more power to it (mesmer equivalent would be traiting illusion line for shorter recharge and benefits on shatter). However, mesmer takes it further, because if you intend to use class mechanic you practically always want to trait it, because if you trait phatasms/clones instead then your use of the shatter mechanic is diminishing the benefit of these traits.

I’m wondering if it’s better to attempt to work shatters into the phantasm build then and if I’d have better luck with that. The 2Phant 1 clone + shatters lets you use those clone generators which is nice, and while I think you’d deal a bit more damage if you’re able to spawn a phantasm right after it attacks thanks to the attack reset , I’m finding Wrack to be sort of bleh vs most bosses. Cry is more of the same and Distortion is only somewhat useful for knocking off Defiant, after all I should already be gaining damage from getting an extra attack from the Phantasms so I don’t NEED to be using wrack or cry but I feel like they could be better. If I’m using distortion I’m probably not going to care i just interrupted my iS iB iW or whoever’s attack cycle because there are probably 80 rockets or something flying at my face.

Dungeons seem to have too much AoE to place run with a pure shatter build reliably and I feel like using them to eek out a tiny bit more damage albeit unreliably is sort of lackluster for what should be a button I’m excited to press.

Solo play with a glass cannon build Illusionary Persona is pretty amazing but I can’t seem to find a shatter build that doesn’t make me super squish.

Can we all agree at least with the OPs point that when we convert our clones into bombs they can stand to be a bit more universally reliable? Right now I’m having a hard time giving the greatsword/ Sword +focus up just because it lets me readily shatter the clones/phantasms spawned by them in WvWvW. That weapon set seems to support a power precision and either crit damage or a defensive stat. So I’m a bit concerned it’ll make staff less appealing. I suppose I could always go with Power Condition Vitality gear and get some use from SI.

Am I the only one perplexed that our shortest CD shatter with the most trait support seems to favor a power build, while the Illusion tree adds to condition damage? I assume I’m missing a synergy here. I’m aware that this places 3-4 stacks of confusion up thanks to the minor trait at 15 but it still feels odd to me.

After playing some rounds of sPvP and being able to pull off 1v2s with some consistency and even a couple of 1v3s, I’m concerned that we’d need too much work to make dungeon crawls a bit more fun without overpowering us (even more) in small scale PvP .We’re not broken by any stretch and we pack enough utility to be worth the spot as long as we pull our weight. I just think the class and shatters could be more fun use is all. But because of our presence in sPvP I think things may stay as is for a good while.

Abarcine.7189:

Would it be more constructive if people posted the builds that they were using that they’re toting success with?

I think a lot of us who have never tried a shatter build for dungeons because Phantasm traits seem to mesh better (for me at least) would like to see what traits you’d expect to pick up.

The cooldown managment isn’t so much a problem for me but I’m not sure which traits to take to have a successful dungeon build. Or which weapons to bring along, does focus fit in a shatter build because I’m really enjoying the ranged shut down it brings with its respective trait.

Edit : Some tips on dealing with all these “walking wasteland” bosses would be appreciated as well. Unless clone death is really the only way to deal with this, which would make me sad.

I’m not sure why this (the non-edited part, that is) is necessary.

Shatter works better for melee-oriented Mesmers.

There’s no extra running on top of your normal running around and when you shatter, everything immediately goes. There is no travel time to care about — anytime someone complains about that, you know they’re playing at range. But as a result, the “(effect) on Illusion/Clone/Phantasm death” effects tend to be more useful than the actual Phantasm-specific and Clone-specific buffing traits or the “on Shatter” traits. You know they are going to die, and in fact, can cause one to when you want to just by popping another Clone or Phantasm. Or you can Shatter and cause one of the Shatter effects, plus any other Shatter traits you may have liked to pick up.

You’re not sure why it’s necessary to ask others how to run a successful shatter build when you’re unsure which weapons and traits to take? Did you quote the wrong post perhaps?

If no, OP says shatter is flawed mechanically. Others say that it’s fine as is and needs little/no adjustment, I’d like to know what weapon sets, and which traits are being brought by the ones claiming to have so much success is all.

If yes, Shatter intentionally being reliable for only a melee-oriented mesmer feels iffy to me. We have our entire class bar devoted to bringing a single MH. While sword is a great weapon it can’t be intended that everyone either use their sword or treat your class bar as an afterthougt that might work. Most of our weapon options are ranged. Why devote our class bar to one playstyle?

Yes you can use GS and scepter to spawn clones from range to shatter them with little pause between the button press and the effect. But this feels a little odd on both weapons. We spawn clones who have ranged attacks… in melee range. We can’t really use the clones from these weapons to confound anyone. It’s painfully obvious where we are.

Abarcine.7189:

You’re not sure why it’s necessary to ask others how to run a successful shatter build when you’re unsure which weapons and traits to take?

I’m not sure how it is more constructive to post a specific build when Shatter works better for melee-oriented Mesmers, and we’ve only got 1 melee mainhand weapon. :/

Basically what I was after. You’re saying that a shatter build is only useful for one weapon in our arsenal. That one weapon needs to take traits from our condition tree to get itself the support it needs to function, while being a power weapon? The offhands that are available are not condition weapons either. At least not unless we take 15 in dueling for SI.

Doesn’t this go back to the OPs point of sucks unless traited ? Why does a mesmer who is leveling need to stick it out before they can grab core traits sprinkled throughout several trait lines. Sure it’s fine at 80, but why can’t it be a bit more functional at lower levels without being game-breakingly good.

I’m saying it works better for me using a melee weapon. The key point of what I then said is:

Because I am in melee,

• The “(effect) on Illusion/Clone/Phantasm death” effects tend to be more useful than the actual Phantasm-specific and Clone-specific buffing traits or the “on Shatter” traits.

Do you see such effects in the condition tree?