Guild Wars 2

I’m not sure how it is more constructive to post a specific build when Shatter works better for melee-oriented Mesmers, and we’ve only got 1 melee mainhand weapon. :/

But now you’re saying that on death traits work better for a melee build rather than the ones that buff shatter?

Abarcine.7189:

I’m not sure how it is more constructive to post a specific build when Shatter works better for melee-oriented Mesmers, and we’ve only got 1 melee mainhand weapon. :/

But now you’re saying that on death traits work better for a melee build rather than the ones that buff shatter?

I’m saying they’ve worked better for me. It’s a subjective statement. An opinion. I even told you why I felt they worked better for me. You wanted feedback about what traits people picked, you got it. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to turn an opinion into a fact, and I’d appreciate you stop asking me to do so.

Seriously, this is like watching hyenas ready to jump on you as soon as you lay down. Is it any real surprise people like Xfraze feels the way they do?

So quick to play the victim. I asked if someone could give an example of a shatter build since there are numerous instances of others phantasm or bust. You stated that shouldn’t be necessary. You went on to say that shatter builds using ranged weapons didn’t work as well because of the delay ( no new information here. ) There is nothing to indicate that this is your opinion. You flat out say that on death tends to be more useful as a result of knowing your clones are going to die.

You take someone asking for build advice and then turn it into HELP ME IM BEING RIPPED TO SHREDS.

Excellent post, OP. You make some very good points. I inferred from the overall tone that the Mesmer class is fairly well borked, which I think we both know is not really the case.

However, the fundamental mechanic, clones/shatters, is certainly awkward at best in its current form.

I’m not yet convinced the concept needs a massive overhaul or requires scrapping, but you have convinced me there is a body of work that should be done to this profession’s mechanic.

Abarcine.7189:

So quick to play the victim. I asked if someone could give an example of a shatter build since there are numerous instances of others phantasm or bust. You stated that shouldn’t be necessary. You went on to say that shatter builds using ranged weapons didn’t work as well because of the delay ( no new information here. ) There is nothing to indicate that this is your opinion. You flat out say that on death tends to be more useful as a result of knowing your clones are going to die.

You take someone asking for build advice and then turn it into HELP ME IM BEING RIPPED TO SHREDS.

Yes, you’re SO eager to ask for build advice that it took you three posts and an edit that added more about what I didn’t say to actually acknowledge what I said in the first post. Then it’s OMG, you’re trying to turn it into HELP ME IM BEING RIPPED TO SHREDS.

Seriously?

Somna.5168:

Abarcine.7189:

Would it be more constructive if people posted the builds that they were using that they’re toting success with?

I think a lot of us who have never tried a shatter build for dungeons because Phantasm traits seem to mesh better (for me at least) would like to see what traits you’d expect to pick up.

The cooldown managment isn’t so much a problem for me but I’m not sure which traits to take to have a successful dungeon build. Or which weapons to bring along, does focus fit in a shatter build because I’m really enjoying the ranged shut down it brings with its respective trait.

Edit : Some tips on dealing with all these “walking wasteland” bosses would be appreciated as well. Unless clone death is really the only way to deal with this, which would make me sad.

I’m not sure why this (the non-edited part, that is) is necessary.

Shatter works better for melee-oriented Mesmers.

There’s no extra running on top of your normal running around and when you shatter, everything immediately goes. There is no travel time to care about — anytime someone complains about that, you know they’re playing at range. But as a result, the “(effect) on Illusion/Clone/Phantasm death” effects tend to be more useful than the actual Phantasm-specific and Clone-specific buffing traits or the “on Shatter” traits. You know they are going to die, and in fact, can cause one to when you want to just by popping another Clone or Phantasm. Or you can Shatter and cause one of the Shatter effects, plus any other Shatter traits you may have liked to pick up.

You present this as opinion where exactly? Not sure why you have a bug up yourkitten about my edits, they’re usually to correct my horrible grammar. You jump back and forth describing shatter builds/ clone death ones that I can’t get a clear picture on what you’re trying to say. Then compare the entire community to a pack of rabid hyenas. And you’re asking seriously?

I’m certain that there is nothing to learn from these threads at this point and posting here is going to devolve into an argument between shatter builds or phantasm builds or whatever the hell someone is itching about.

Abarcine.7189:

You present this as opinion where exactly? Not sure why you have a bug up yourkitten about my edits, they’re usually to correct my horrible grammar. You jump back and forth describing shatter builds/ clone death ones that I can’t get a clear picture on what you’re trying to say. Then compare the entire community to a pack of rabid hyenas. And you’re asking seriously?

I’m certain that there is nothing to learn from these threads at this point and posting here is going to devolve into an argument between shatter builds or phantasm builds or whatever the hell someone is itching about.

(Edit: I did say a later post I meant it as my opinion, but if you were referring to the original post, then the confusion does make sense. I’m sorry about that.)

I normally don’t care about edits, unless I saw the post suddenly double or triple in size with stuff I know wasn’t there when I originally responded. Everyone makes typos, but it looks strange to see it suddenly add another paragraph.

I was actually just referring to reading your responses when referring to the hyena comment.

I do agree with you that the shatter threads are pretty pointless, and I think I understand what you’re confused about now.

In order to get Shatter to work better for me, I picked the only melee weapon we have available. However, since most of the Clones/Phantasms ended up being in melee range, they died faster. (As you said, obvious). So as a result, I prioritized traits that are (x on death) over the Shatter traits because I didn’t want the deaths to go to waste. I only see three available in the trees — Confusing Combatants at Dueling 25, Crippling Dissipation at Domination 10, and Debilitating Dissipation at Chaos 10.

So 25 points left to play with towards whatever shatter traits look appealing.

I really can’t get any more specific than that for traits because I’m still respeccing every other day to play around with them. It was also harder to reference that information earlier because I was posting from a location that blocked the stuff I needed to reference.

Does that make more sense?

Edit: Mental math error. :P

pyronix.4081:

All I see here as counterarguments are of the “lrn2play better” types. You people don’t get it. You don’t give someone a brand new car with flawed brakes and then when they crash into something tell to “lrn2drive”.

Although I’m on the opposing side of the debate, I do appreciate their point of view.

Imagine, if you will, a classic sports car. Magnificent frame, beautiful engineering, incredible handling, with more style and flare than one can possibly imagine. It’s got a more complicated design, which means people need to learn more about actual driving than these modern hold-your-hand luxury cars. As a result, while many student drivers stall out on the roads, those who master the classic car tend to appreciate its nuances far more than someone coasting through life, onboard GPS in hand.

The natural reaction to anyone suggesting a change is going to be hostile. After all, who would want to replace that amazing handling and capable turning with disposable modern parts, gimmicky electronics and, horror of horrors, automatic steering (shudder). However, that’s not the point. Some things have to be fixed, especially if the tires can’t handle icy terrain, the electrical system shorts out on occasion, or turning on your blinker causes the AC to shut off. Likewise, if a modern vehicle can outperform the older model on certain roads, no amount of initial skill floor will make up for the fault compared to equally skilled drivers. The classic sports car can keep its handling and design, but it needs to meet modern standards for safety, emissions, and all that jazz.

So too, the Mesmer. Amazing concept, beautiful thematics, superb utility list, hilariously good time trolling people, but it’s got some grinding gears under the hood that need fixing. The natural reaction to saying the class mechanic is flawed is going to be hostile, because that statement is usually a request to either remove the intricacies of the profession (dumb it down), or to impose another playstyle onto the profession instead. Personally, I want neither. The Mesmer should be a complicated mystical mastermind manifesting multifaceted magics, but it still needs to have the flexibility and adaptability to suit all the given content. The feel is good, and the handling is perfect, but the core engine block needs a bad case of updating and refurbishing to be viable on every road.

This is actually the thing that bothers me. It seems that people are upset they can’t do both shatter builds AND having Phantasm-afk at the same time. If an Elementalist said he wanted to be able to burst people down from 100% to 0 like a Thief, AND also do top-tier condition damage, AND have survivability, AND receive daily massages from their favourite gosh darned masseuse, you’d say they were being unreasonable.

I understand your premise of having and eating one’s cake. However, I would make a counterassertion to this point.

It’s not that mesmers cannot have both. It’s that they cannot choose one or the other.

Every mesmer is required to role out with clones, phantasms, and shatters. These three mechanics don’t play nicely together, but everyone is expected to roll out with them 100% of the time in every single build and situation. Phantasm builds end up with four buttons that delete their cool things. Shatter builds are handed a resource balanced around persistence, despite the fact that they have no interest holding up the pain train. Effect-on-death clone builds get weapon damage balanced on the assumption that you’ll have damaging NPCs or massive explosions, even if neither are occurring. Meanwhile, things like mantra builds and duelist designs are crowded out by the need to create damage, condition, control, and support traits for clones, phantasms, and shatters alike.

Any of the three mechanics could easily be implemented as an optional utility set. It would actually be very easy to do so, and it would leave breathing room for the other one or two mandatory mechanics to gain flexibility and adaptability. But forcing them all on every single mesmer just means that anyone who wants to specialize is running around with vestigial limbs dangling off of their skillset. Some setups make use of all three mechanics, but those same setups would be possible if certain mechanics were made optional as well, or if the system was fined tuned for flexibility.

When someone wants to eat the cake, they shouldn’t have to balance a slice on their head. Nor should someone who wants to avoid the cake have it thrown at them repeatedly in the middle of a romantic date with destiny. Mesmers should be able to drink tea and eat cake as needed, with more control by the players over what skills are brought with them on their bars, and which ones are left at home.

Regarding the shattering 3 phantasms and replacing with 2 more pretty quickly, taking advantage of the fact that newly summoned phantasms attack immediately to replace just-attacked phantasms. Can you not do that -without- shattering anyway? In that case the equation is basically:

3 phantasms attacking over [illusion cooldown time] vs. 2 phantasm attacking over [illusion cooldown time] + shatter(3).

Simplified it is:

1 phantasm attacking over [illusion cooldown time] vs. shatter(3).

Is the shatter(3) actually more damage than a phantasm for a phantasm build over the period of the cooldown (which is variable but around 16 seconds)?

Aimeryan.1247:

Regarding the shattering 3 phantasms and replacing with 2 more pretty quickly, taking advantage of the fact that newly summoned phantasms attack immediately to replace just-attacked phantasms. Can you not do that -without- shattering anyway? In that case the equation is basically:

3 phantasms attacking over [illusion cooldown time] vs. 2 phantasm attacking over [illusion cooldown time] + shatter(3).

Simplified it is:

1 phantasm attacking over [illusion cooldown time] vs. shatter(3).

Is the shatter(3) actually more damage than a phantasm for a phantasm build over the period of the cooldown (which is about 12 seconds if traited I think)?

So far it’s all theory’s based on gut feelings. Since the combat log doesn’t report phantasm damage (at least it didn’t report my iD), it makes it harder to pull numbers. I don’t even know if the log is contained somewhere that can be viewed outside of the game or what tools to use to get this done. I don’t even know if such an undertaking would be against the ToS

I think the problem here is largely the traits, not Shatter itself.
Our traits suffer from a near-complete lack of cohesion. By that I mean, we have “On Illusion Death”-traits in 3 trait lines, one of them 25 deep.

I could only see that being viable if each on-death effect was the effect that specific line focused on (say, buffing, or debuffing, or damage). It isn’t, they’re completely random.

I’d expect things to be sorted like this:

• Domination, Power/Expertise, focuses on reactive damage, automatic damage and binary debuffs.
• Dueling, Precision/Prowess, focuses on pure damage and increased burst.
• Chaos, Toughness/Concentration, focuses on buffing of other players and manipulating buffs on enemies.
• Inspiration, Vitality/Compassion, focuses on healing self and other players and manipulating conditions on friendly players.
• Illusions, Malice/Guile, focuses on improving Shatter effects and scaling debuffs (Bleeding, Confusion, Burning and so on).

This would give every trait line a very clear goal. I would then expect the specific minor traits to be clear in what this line is about. The 3 Minor traits should relatively clearly define what a line is about to a newcomer, for example for Illusions:

• +33% Confusion duration
• Shatter CD resets on 25% HP
• All offensive Shatter effects apply Confusion

High-end traits could include effects such as:

• When your Illusions dissolve (in any way, including Shatter and end of combat!), they cause Cry of Frustration. Grandmaster
• If your Mantra-Charge is interrupted, the interrupter suffers Confusion or Burning, depending on Mantra (Pain causes Burning, the others Confusion). Adept
• Glamour skills apply Confusion at target location. Master
• Manipulation skills lower your remaining Shatter cooldowns. Adept

And so on.
Likewise, I’d align the other trait lines to always focus relatively narrowly on their subject, but, do so by applying the subject to ~everything. Meaning every trait line should have Mantra traits, Sigils traits, Clone traits, Phantasm traits and so on, just about doing something different with them.

Carighan, I would not be against the traits being looked at. Sometimes it feels like something is in the wrong place when I’m looking at the different options which makes picking what would be best counter intuitive.

Sometimes you’re looking at something and think it has great synergy but realize with the point spread it’d be impossible to achieve (which could be intentional).

I’m not sure if every trait line should have something that applies to everything, but I think at the very least, they should be more focused and especially geared toward whatever stat that trait line promotes.

This is pretty much summing up of my troubles with the mesmer.

It seems like it competes, with itself. The shattering mechanic is at odds with the phantasm mechanic, you can’t please both since a phantasm is apparently worth the same as akitten poor clone. So you go: Clones and Shatter, or Phantasms. Well, all 3 are class mechanics, why are they working against eachother? They should work together.

I really think phantasms should not be able to be shattered, give them a separate bar that is not clones. OR Make shattering them more worthwhile. Give them maybe, +10% damage, or +some condition or +some boon or +Duration or whatever you like for every phantasm you shatter instead of a clone.

So, I have to say, that i strongly disagree with the OP.
While have to admit that I dont really play the Mesmer in dungeons, I do think to be quit skilled and experienced in sPvP and WvWvW.
The Shattering mechanic works wounderfull for me in sPvP. With the “Illusionary Self” Trait and 3 Clones up, you can shatter for an insane amount of burst. Then after shattering your clones you summon your Phantasams and let them do the damag until mindwreck comes of cooldown. It really is just a matter a practise.
The importmant think to keep in mind is how to set up your Clones and Phatasmens. Let me give you an example of how I do it in sPvP with sword/pistol and Greatsword: First you blink right next to your enemy and get 3 clones out instantly (with mirror image and sword skill 3 or a traited dodge) and shatter them. After that you get your duellist and Berserker out and let them do Damage and kite around until shatter comes of cooldown again.
The way shatter works for PvP is quit awesome and really love the mechanic. You just have to practise and know when to summon Clones or Illusions. And since clones dont overwrite Phantasm anymore you dont even have to worry about that anymore which allows you to constantly have 3 Illusions on the field without having to worry to replace a Phantams with a clone. Thus you can fully gain from the Traits which give you 3% more damge an/or 3% less damage taken per each Illusion.
The only thing thats kind of wrong with the shatter is, that “illusionary Self” only creats the shatter effect in a small AoE around you and is thus only viable with the sword..

I agree 100% with you Shriketalon.

Mesmer rework is needed.

I’m with you, Shrike. Mesmers definitely have perfectly viable playstyles, but those shouldn’t completely ignore the other mechanics of the profession.

If I want to focus on phantasms, I don’t want to feel like I have 4 wasted buttons above my action bar. Conversely, I don’t want to focus on shatters and have my high-damage abilities used as cannon fodder.

I hope they don’t rework Mesmers. As it is right now, I think Mesmers are in a great place. I struggled with mine for a while and then it clicked and I’ve loved it ever since. While I may play them different then most (I don’t shatter unless they are almost dead, they are grouped up and susceptible, or I need the invul), the style I have adopted is extremely strong. Almost unbeatable 1v1 (hehehe, even against other Mesmers) and able to control large scale fights via a couple of key abilities – I seriously feel that they are secretly borderline OP.

That was the longest and kitteniest read I’ve had in a while.

Shatters work just fine, every single one of them are good and clones AND phantasms have such incredibly low cooldown that I don’t see the problem.

And I like how his entire post complains about there being lots of different ways to build mesmers. I’m sorry that Arenanet hasn’t managed to create clones that completely mimic human behavior. Shame on them.

How about you stop backpedaling and just stand there and autoattack with the same weapon as your clones for once?

Oh, and don’t represent your guild cause that’s a dead giveaway.

I think mesmers are a mess.

Even with that said i still play mine but… my ele can do everything my mesmer can do (except confuse) much better.

Mesmers are the only class thats mechanic has a pre-requisite this big, and the only class that’s mechanic is tied in to what we do, no matter how we chose to play. It limits the mesmer so much, i don’t understand how people can’t see that.

The problem is not whether Shatters work or not, the problem is how the three core class mechanics (Clones, Phantasms, Shatters) more often than not are at odds with one another, instead of synergizing.

To compare, think of a Ranger who’d do 20% more damage if no pet was active.
So on the one hand he’d want to use the pet, skill and all that. On the other hand he would not want to use it, 20% damage.
This is how Mesmers are built, we are best when not using part of our abilities. If I want to play Phantasm-heavy, I don’t want to use Shatters. If I play Shatter-heavy, I can use Phantasms but honestly I don’t actually care because they’re just fodder, their skills are meanignless. If I want to play Clone-heavy, I don’t want to use Phantasms, they don’t confuse enemies and too many aren’t close enough to produce on-death effects.

In other words, what we need is a way to utilize the pet-bombing less often but to much greater effect (shared short CD, individual loooooong CD, much bigger effect), and then rework the Clones vs Phantasms setup so that you can use both to varying degrees of personal preference.

I think making phantasms worth more than clones on shatter/death would help make the mechanics synergise, as I’ve seen mentioned a few times.

Phantasms builds would want to shatter because they can get max phantasms up before doing so and then get something out of shattering worth doing so. Shatter builds would care about keeping the phantasm alive in particular over clones until ready to shatter. Clone builds would want to get some phantasms in at convenient times due to the greater worth they will have on death than the clones.

Carighan.6758:

If I want to play Phantasm-heavy, I don’t want to use Shatters. If I play Shatter-heavy, I can use Phantasms but honestly I don’t actually care because they’re just fodder, their skills are meanignless. If I want to play Clone-heavy, I don’t want to use Phantasms, they don’t confuse enemies and too many aren’t close enough to produce on-death effects.

You will always want to use Clones and Phantasms, in various, ever-shifting combinations. Sometimes all clones out for a Shatter (DPS or CC), sometimes 2 Clones (for aggro management) and 1 Phantasm (to supplement DPS, or for CC), sometimes all Phantasms (in a sustained fight where others can take some aggro).

Flexibility, flexibility, flexibility – only with a bit of weighting towards one aspect or another, according to playstyle preference.

(IOW, generally the Mesmer will suit the playstyle of those who like to stay busy; within that, there will be variations of playstyle and rotation preferences that can be accommodated by Traiting, but at no point will the general playstyle of the profession cease to be busy and start being faceroll-ey, for example.)

I play myself a condition/confusion build.
It requires either me or illusions to be in melee, so foes actualy keep using abilities frequently.
Thats why I like the scepter how it is. Stack confusion, then block incomming attack.. maybe ¹ damge is to slow and does to little damage itself.
Beside above I use Sword with torch and focus off-hands. That gives me resonable amount of illusions to play around with.
Phantasms do their attacks (maybe twice; prefferably combo with Nullfield or Feedback;) , I shatter them for 2 stacks of confusion each(AoE) and then summon back… you just have to watch your cooldowns, so you dont shatter when cant summon back yet.

My only pain is how confusions works poorly in PvE.
Dont know why, but GW2 have the slowest attacking mosters I have ever seen.
Mights stand there for 5 sec and do nothing, effectivly wasting lots of confusion uptime.
So as its very nice PvP tool, its loosing a lot in PvE, and thats what I would love to see fixed. It might even require some rework (for example doing double damage in PvE), but current state is not working properly =(

There are several ways the shatter mechanic could work:

—Shatter procs on death command of all illusions [staff] also adds boon to nearby allies

—Shatter procs when an illusion is killed by enemy [great sword] shatter is aoe

—Shatter procs on next attack, or offhand attack [scepter] shatter bounces

—Shatter procs as defensive buff when struck by melee, spell or range and on ‘dodge’ [1h sword]

—etc

Being able to use shatters relative to the weapon equipped depends on how many pets are summoned — more pets, more powerful the effect. Re-summon recharges, when pet[s] not destroyed by shatter.

Weapon determines the type of proc. [not type of shatter]

Shatters could auto-proc, ctrl-click as ‘on summoning’ an illusion.

This would make the mesmer a very complex opponent to follow, particularly when weapon swapping is properly utilized. The player has more controller over the shattered illusion.

Get it done, profession fixed.

Wolfend, I don’t get what you’re proposing.

The idea is to remove Shatter as a bar, and replace it with an automatic trigger according to weapon equipped? But how do I select which shatter, in that case?

Carighan.6758:

Wolfend, I don’t get what you’re proposing.

The idea is to remove Shatter as a bar, and replace it with an automatic trigger according to weapon equipped? But how do I select which shatter, in that case?

Bar and choice remains, was just suggesting an auto-proc option to reduce ‘finger fu’ overhead.

Ctrl-click one of your shatters and it auto-procs when an illusion is summoned, the more summoned, the greater the stack for next attack [sceptre] or retaliation/dodge effect [sword], pure illusion shatters [staff/gs] are ‘as coded’ using current minion bomb system.

Phantasms builds would want to shatter because they can get max phantasms up before doing so and then get something out of shattering worth doing so. Shatter builds would care about keeping the phantasm alive in particular over clones until ready to shatter. Clone builds would want to get some phantasms in at convenient times due to the greater worth they will have on death than the clones.

A phantasm build still wouldn’t want to shatter unless a 3 phantasm shatter was basically an instigib on most players/elite mobs.

The problem is not whether Shatters work or not, the problem is how the three core class mechanics (Clones, Phantasms, Shatters) more often than not are at odds with one another, instead of synergizing.

Clones will never form a core part of our gameplay. They are there merely as 1/2hit tanks and for the confusion factor, at best your running a precision condition bleed build which likes them about as much as some of your phantasms. The other issues are solved just by having phantasms not break on shatter.

The easiest suggestion is to put a 10point illusion trait (if not make it core) which says “your phantasms are no longer destroyed by shattering”. This would make shatter builds love phantasms more and phantasm builds use shatter way more. As it is atm using shatter in a PvP situation is terrible since it leaves you without any clones, an easy target for the enemies.

Good post from op – agree on most parts.
Also:

The easiest suggestion is to put a 10point illusion trait (if not make it core) which says “your phantasms are no longer destroyed by shattering”. This would make shatter builds love phantasms more and phantasm builds use shatter way more.

So true …
The thing that bugs me is that clone and phantasm creation isnt fixed to the FNumber keys.
Every weapon has it…..
1 skill for clone 1 for phantasm. In my oppinion just a matter of time before it needs to be changed, as every further weapon given to our profession will just add to this problem.

I run a shatter/confusion/phantasm hybrid and it works fine. Every buff or “fix” in this threat would make the class even more dominant in PvP.

Mayama.1854:

I run a shatter/confusion/phantasm hybrid and it works fine. Every buff or “fix” in this threat would make the class even more dominant in PvP.

Not sure anyone is asking to be “more dominant in pvp”. Balancing is just a numbers game anyway…

Personally, I’d like to see the play-style range and flexibility common to the gw1 mesmer translated to gw2.

I’m with OP: minion bombing is a rather weak translation from what the mesmer once was. I like what gw2 has done for the mesmer in many respects, it’s a good start, but I personally see lots of room for improvement, particularly more options beyond ‘minion bombing’ as the primary mechanic for shatters.

I know there is a lot of arguing and fighting, but I am really glad this post was made and is getting so many replies.

Just the fact that so many people are passionate about this shows they actually are interested in the direction of the Mesmer class.

I would like to throw in that after reading the replies I feel like sPVP should mostly be neglected from the main argument being made here. It just seems that sPVP shattering even phantasm isn’t nearly as detrimental as PvE.

I for one would love to see some work done to Mesmers, in a none super detailed list here are just some of my ideas/points (My opinion and by no means are my ideas the best).

I feel that phantasms are currently too strong, maybe weaken them a bit and allow some way for them not to be shattered, to provide an alternative for shatter builds.

I feel the shatter closing distance/time is a bit much when you click mind wrack or CryoF and your illusions are’t in melee range (most of the time).

Also confusion in PvE feels really off, the monsters are attacking really slow and we are never in melee range unless Sword MH so I feel like the effect isn’t occurring as intended.

Mantras are just not fun. (my opinion)

I would like to see changes to weapon skills or adding weapons, I wish we had more attacks that did contact similar to Sword F1, F2 and Great sword F2.

The reason I feel like these changes would be great is just because of mainly limiting factors, I currently feel like Mesmer is a strong class, but I just think you are a shatter / or / phantasm manager. I would like to see mantra’s become more fun and less chore like and have more on hit moves so that we could have options with our play-style’s but still use shatter and phantasms just not rely solely on them.

Read it all, excellent post. I’ve been saying this exact same things since the mesmer was revealed, nice to know it’s not just me.

Carighan.6758:

The problem is not whether Shatters work or not, the problem is how the three core class mechanics (Clones, Phantasms, Shatters) more often than not are at odds with one another, instead of synergizing.

Well said (and to the OP as well), it’s the disharmony between different playstyles that is forced to exist within every build that make it a sort of Frankenstein’s monster class (imo the same problem exists within a lot of the talent trees for other classes but not in their weapons/class mechanics).

I do think there is one shatter, however, which works in every build: distortion. Unlike the damage shatters it doesn’t require trait investments to be useful and it’s not competing with phantasms’ damage output. It’s still cheaper to use with clones, but it is better to lose your phantasms then have your face ground into the dirt. I don’t think it’s the solution, but it’s worth bearing in mind along with the fact that the iwarden, idefender, and idisenchanter are utility illusions rather than dps.

To make it all work together phantasms or shatters could become non-damage oriented, clones and phantasms could to be equalized in value (for example have phantasms do a strong attack when initially summoned and then do clone-level damage after that), shattering could be separated from phantasms, or shattering could be moved to the utility bar and something else put in the class mechanics bar (eg glamours, mantras, or manipulations become our class mechanic).

edit: for clarity, it’s not that I think the class doesn’t “work” as-is. It’s that I think the current mesmer lacks some of the elegance of classes whose fundamental parts work in harmony.

Carighan.6758:

I think the problem here is largely the traits, not Shatter itself.
Our traits suffer from a near-complete lack of cohesion. By that I mean, we have “On Illusion Death”-traits in 3 trait lines, one of them 25 deep.

I could only see that being viable if each on-death effect was the effect that specific line focused on (say, buffing, or debuffing, or damage). It isn’t, they’re completely random.

I’d expect things to be sorted like this:

• Domination, Power/Expertise, focuses on reactive damage, automatic damage and binary debuffs.

Speaking of domination trait line bonuses, putting condition duration on domination is IMO a mistake. Condition duration helps confusion builds a lot, but confusion builds have no use for power or domination traits.
A condition build needs:
precision have high crits to inflict conditions
condition duration to get more ticks
condition damage

Condition build doesn’t need power or crit multiplier.
A power build generally needs power, precision and crit multiplier.

If they move crit muliplier to domination and condition duration on duelling, the builds would be much improved.

Condition builds would be able to take duelling and illusions line to get condition damage, crit % and condition duration and shatter recharge (which you need to inflict confusion). Power builds would take domination and duelling to get power, crit %, crit multiplier and condition duration.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to pair crit chance+crit damage, condition duration+condition damage, and power with whatever is left over (shatter recharge for mesmers)?

I have to say I’m fully on the side of EasymodeX and co. I think shatters work just fine how they are now. I know early on I always defended against the anti shatter crowd on Guru and I still think Shatters, Phantasms, and Clones all work well together as a class mechanic.

I really do think the crux of the issue is people thinking of Phantasms as a turret. There are certain viable ways with traits to make this a powerful way to spec, but also a very difficult one to manage due to unavoidable clone death. Sure, if you can get 3 iDuelists up during a fight, the damage output is going to be amazing. But I just don’t see it happening often enough to be a playstyle I would pursue.

Instead, I just view my phantasms as a single attack. Once they have performed their initial attack, they are basically dead to me. Oh sure I try to keep from shattering before my CD for recasting them are up, but after that initial volley they have served their purpose IMO. It feels like that is how they are designed as well, since their lifespan is incredibly short.

I think people are overexaggerating how ‘useless’ a shatter is, even to a Phantasm build. It is still a way for you to erase all your clones (end of fight burst? they are about to die to aoe?). There are also 2 great utility shatters (the daze and invul) that you can use despite everything else.

I strongly feel that Phantasms should NOT get any additional effect from Shatters or uncoupled from the Shatter system. If they do damage (good damage too, it is nothing to sneeze at) AND they shatter for comparatively more damage, you are just putting that one spell on your weapon on a pedestal. You make the class all about the Phantasms. They would probably have to balance this out by just making Phantasms worse all around (less damage while alive to compensate for more damage in a shatter).

I love the mesmer as it stands. I feel there are some areas they can be improved for sure (I think killing a clone should do SOMETHING baseline… and I still think it takes too long for them to run to their target to explode)… but personally I hope they keep the clone/phantasm/shatter mechanic as it is now.

True Seeker.3682:

Helberus.4320:

Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration are the most worthless ones.. their only exchange is for damage less than the phantasms used to fuel it.. even 1 phantasm in the mix makes the shatter questionable..

Why do our clones and phantasms occupy the same slots anyway? Anet’s clearly made a distinction between their functions, so why share the same slots for shattering?

I disagree with Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration. If you need AoE damage and your Phantasms are iDuelist and iWarden, what point are they? Also, sometimes you need damage NOW, and Phantasms take their sweet time attacking. Cry of Frustration is also AoE if I’m not mistaken and fits in the situation where if they are spamming attacks, the damage output can be VERY considerable, though more useful for Condition builds where your power may be lacking.

As for distinguishing differences…it is so we can’t have our cake and eat it too. Do you need an effect now, or do you want to gamble that your Phantasms are going to get another shot at doing their thing (and are in the position to do their thing effectively)? It is also to discourage people from putting their eggs into the very-fragile basket of the all-Phantasm strategy. I know I open up with Phantasms, but if the situation calls for it, I shatter. It also ALLOWS for someone to go one route or the other.

This is actually the thing that bothers me. It seems that people are upset they can’t do both shatter builds AND having Phantasm-afk at the same time. If an Elementalist said he wanted to be able to burst people down from 100% to 0 like a Thief, AND also do top-tier condition damage, AND have survivability, AND receive daily massages from their favourite gosh darned masseuse, you’d say they were being unreasonable.

So ask yourself, why would that be any different than saying “Hey, I want to be able to have constant, high damage from all my Phantasms and I also want to have zero opportunity or damage costs on these abilities that are clearly scaled to have a cost to them vis-a-vis clone/Phantasm death. I also want a pony.” It doesn’t work that way. These are very strong effects (Guardian’s can help their allies block 1 attack on a high CD. Mesmers can become completely invulnerable for 3-4 seconds) and the cost in Phantasms/Clones is the price they come with. If you don’t think their worth it, you aren’t using them right or you have a beef with the multipliers/numbers involved.

Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration only contribute damage. On larger group of foes, these become effective.. however in PvE if you’ve aggro’d more than 1 mob, your own fault.. otherwise you should have the advantage of switching to better weapon choices for AoE.. not using the stale set of weapons for everything. In sPvP you’ll want to take down 1 target first to survive longer, not dish out puny 2k damage to 2 people. WvW, your clones are lucky to even live long enough to shatter since Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration requires your illusions to move towards their target.

If an enemy is spamming attacks, your confusion from Cry of Frustration is no where near the scepter’s confusing images.. In essence, if you just proven Cry of Frustration is nothing more than a redundant skill.

Speaking of cake and eating it too, have you seen the burst damage the thieves, warriors, rangers, and elemenalists dish out? If you honestly think our phantasms come close to the burst of any of these classes, you’ve really not been playing the game at all.. like every class, Mesmers have to trade off defense for power and vise versa.. power mesmers are quite fragile as well. The only ones I’ve seen who have both are thieves who can burst down targets in seconds and spam infiltrator’s arrow to run away from 10 people harmless. They can also stealth every few seconds leaving you to guess where they’re at.

Our phantasms have low hp, long skill cooldowns (6-10 seconds each attack), and no camouflage (they are easily distinguishable). These are penalties yes? Are you saying they’re not enough?

As far as condition goes, confusion has a very low coefficient from condition damage..

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion

Unlike burning, you won’t see much of a gain when you try to beef up your confusion.

We don’t need a buff, we need more useful skills than Cry of Frustration and Mind Wrack.. they don’t even have to be damage related.. just something that doesn’t feel like filler skills that aren’t worth using 85% of the time.

I cant be bothered to read 100+ Comments. From what I did read I have a few comments. You wanna give my Mezmer more damage? lol Maybe try experimenting with your stats Mez can put out more Dps than a few classes :P. You want the clones to stick after player death? Are you Nuts? Clearly your perception of the class is shallow…. As for the Phantoms having a slow attack rate…their attack rate increases with the skill to renew them 20% faster…. Honestly if you give the mezmer MORE damage, faster attacking phantoms and illusions sticking around after player death your gonna make the class more OP than it already is. I 2v1 players all the time….. I agree clones could use more health and be more deceptive. All a player needs to do is Target Mark the real mezmer and you will never be fooled…..everything else you said is kinda BS. Other classes needs fixing before mez.

Good post. These issues were known in beta.

Playing another class and comparing their mechanic to the Mesmer is an eye opener most often. Think of the way an Ele’s signets gain different utility based on the attunement. Think of how an Engineer’s utility skills give an extra function to their toolbelt. Think of how the Necro’s Death Shroud is useful no matter how you build your Necro.

Now think of how Shatter goes untouched if you buff your phantasms. Think of how adding Phantasm utility skills creates pick-your-poison situations for the Mesmer player instead of the Mesmer’s foe. Think of the issue of AI and pathfinding.

I recently (last week) started leveling a new Mesmer.

I play a shatter centric build (I’ve found it best so far while leveling) which is basically just your standard Illusion/Staff/Clone build. I found the build really took off at 50 when I could do 0/20/0/0/20 as my build to spawn Illusions on dodge. Now I’m at the point with Mirror Images, Decoy, Dodge, and Staff I can keep Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration on cool down while keeping up 3 clones/phants up most of the time (mostly because I always have Vigor due to my Precision meaning I can dodge near endlessly).

On the whole I find Shatter unreliable at best and useless at worst. Many cases when I am kiting or dodging around my Shatters will miss entirely making them worthless against melee opponents unless I just stand there (which is suicide if I’m kiting 4-5 mobs). It works well against packs of ranged mobs but if the mob you’re focusing jukes, gets out of the pack, or otherwise a shatter can be 100% worthless.

I really wish they’d make it so Shatters were instant and ranged.

Great post especially point number 2.

The problem seems to be that Anet came up with an idea that sounded good/fun in theory, was unique and kind of fit the themes of the Mesmer since all the main mechanics of Mesmer from GW1 wouldn’t be possible in the game. So they threw something together but then more or less completely ignored the class to focus on all the others, even though it should be obvious that something like this would need more attention to fine tune and balance.

While the other classes were getting mechanic redesigns and trait changes to make them work, Mesmer was ignored until the last month before release where it was too late to do anything as big as mechanic redesigns (or the main hand ranged power based weapon that the class feels like it is missing) and obviously most employees were focusing on launch.

Just something to think about, Greatsword skill 3 seems to have had more redesigns and fine tunes then our entire class mechanic.

I agree with the OP. I really want to love the mesmer profession, as I really like the style of deception and lore behind it. However, I find I do not really care for the shatter mechanic and feel like the profession is either lacking something or something is not working right, at least enough to throw me off. I will keep an eye on the mesmer, hoping for some changes that may make it flow better.

I don’t think the stats need to be resorted, I think they make sense this way.
Power + Expertise and Malice + Guile are the weird ones, but they make sense the way I understand how the lines were supposed to work:

• Domination brings binary debuffs. It should focus a lot on Vulnerability, with some sources of Cripple, Immobilize and maybe Weakness. The point would be that none of these scale with Malice, but they all scale with Expertise, very well so.
• Illusions brings scaling debuffs. While this would fit Expertise well (ofc), I would see that as a subspec for this trait-line, assuming it gets resorted to exploit it’s 30% lower shatter CD for more flexible shatters (say, each tap generates 1 Shatter from 1 Clone/Phantasm but it only goes on-CD after all 3 have been used, as a GM-Trait), and to add various Malice-scaling conditions to the shatters.

In other words, I reckon if we were to re-sort and re-implement the traits so they are more cohesive for each line (check Elementalists for a great example on this, Rangers and Necros are also quite ok. Engineer shows another example where it’s somewhat random, but much less so than ours.), then I think our issues with stats might largely disappear.
Or even with class mechanics. At the moment we can’t even specialize since our traitlines are so very random.

A lot of you are arguing that Mesmers perform fine; this is true. But the OP brings up a good point that the Mesmer is pidgeonholed into specific / boring playstyles. There are very few choices that a Mesmer makes when deciding when to do with illusions, it’s almost always a choice between damage and damage that make it all too easy to either abandon phantasms or abandon shatters.

Dat one-month thread necro.

I wonder how many responders have changed their tune given the recent patch?

My concern is that such a thing as a ‘shatter build’ even exists as a standalone pathway – is there such a thing as an ‘adrenaline build’, ‘pet build’ or ‘deathshroud build’? If there are, then I guess I’m not understanding the premise of what core profession mechanics are supposed to be, rather than supporting a variety of branching playstyles.

All builds for classes in this game are centered on specific characteristics that you emphasize. Necros do have “minion builds”, or “condition builds” or even deathshroud builds (from what I can tell these are unpopular, similar to Mantra builds for Mesmers).

Warriors have weapon-swap builds, adrenaline cycle builds, adrenaline storage builds, shout builds, “average adrenaline” builds which don’t manipulate adrenaline one way or another.

Thieves have steal damage builds, steal utility builds, “no steal traiting” builds. Stealth offense builds, stealth defense builds, not-much-stealth builds.

The Mesmer class is made up of the following characteristics:

1. Clones.
2. Phantasms.
3. Shatters.
4. Everything else.

Builds can focus on one or more of the above. Of course, all 4 of those are also split between “power” and “condition”, as well as “offense” and “defense”.

So. Shatter builds are fine. They utilize clones and phantasms for Shattering (although phantasms are still used for damage, and clones are still used for utility).

Phantasm builds obviously center on sustained phantasms. And, shatters are still used for burst or for utility, and clones are still used for their effects.

Clone builds can center on shatters or clone-expiration, or both.

A coherent build focuses generally on one segment, without neglecting other segments.

This is the key part. Most bad players of bad builds will neglect the other mechanics in favor of over-investing into a single mechanic. For example, bad shatter builds will shatter 24×7, and will not let clone/phantasms maximize their uptime (while shattering).

Bad players of the phantasm build will neglect the value of clone abilities (you see people kitten about clones overwriting their 3rd phantasm, and then choosing to not use the clone ability — bad), and will never shatter.

If you only focus on one aspect of the class and assume that it is the main or “only” or “default” focus of the class, you’ve already failed. The classes are designed and balanced to use all aspects of the class, even though your build will typically emphasize one piece or another.

One of the major keys to success is knowing when that other button you don’t normally use is, in fact, the best way to proceed with the fight.

Abarcine.7189:

If no, OP says shatter is flawed mechanically. Others say that it’s fine as is and needs little/no adjustment, I’d like to know what weapon sets, and which traits are being brought by the ones claiming to have so much success is all.

If yes, Shatter intentionally being reliable for only a melee-oriented mesmer feels iffy to me. We have our entire class bar devoted to bringing a single MH. While sword is a great weapon it can’t be intended that everyone either use their sword or treat your class bar as an afterthougt that might work. Most of our weapon options are ranged. Why devote our class bar to one playstyle?

I’ve run successful shatter builds of various flavors with the following weapons: GS, Torch, MH Sword, OH Sword, Staff, Focus, Pistol.

I presume Scepter would be quite valid, but I haven’t really used Scepters for more than very short periods in 75 levels.

The weapons actually do not matter for shattering. The weapons will be associated with whether you have a power, condition, offensive, defensive, or utility build. Only caveat is that Staff, GS, and Scepter are slightly emphasized for shattering because of their faster clone generation.

Typical shatter gameplay will occur between 900 range and melee, however. The two segments of gameplay where shatters are slightly weak are:

1. Shooting down a dungeon boss that you’re unfamiliar with. If you don’t know the mechanics and telegraphs, staying at 1200 range is beneficial. You may also lose a lot of phantasm/clones to AOEs you are not aware of.

2. Wall sieging in WvW. Obviously, most clone/phantasms can’t run up or down the wall for shattering. Tedious.

I kinda don’t get the OP.

Point 1 states that shattering some claones is a more poor tradeoff than others because some clones are worth more to you. That statement exists in a vaccum and doesn’t hold up in reality. If you intend to shatter clones, then whatever they do prior to shatter is completely worthless to you. Their only worth to you is a walking bomb. They won’t exist long enough to do anything else. I get his point that a clone that does X should be worth less from a shatter perspective than a clone that does X+1. But if the only reason you are generating them in the first place is to blow them up, why care? My asusmption is he wants better clones to shatter for more/have additional side effects during shatter. I feel shatter is powerful enough as it is (when it works), and this would be imbalancing.

Most of his other concerns seem to state that we’re dependant on traits to build our skill sets, and once we pick certain traits we focus solely on the things they benefit. Um…yes? It’s called a spec. Everyone has them. Trust me when I say that every class in this game, when they invest deeply enough in certain traits, ignores the abilities and tactics that do not synergize with those traits in favor of those that do. It’s the definition of a build. I don’t know what you want.

The thread is very old, I’ve since branched out my specs and went with experimenting on my own instead of listening to the doom and gloom on these forums.

Shatters are very useful to large number of my specs and weapons at this point.

My current favorites usually involve the focus trait warden’s feedback. The utility it provides is just too strong to ignore. However I usually keep at LEAST 20 points in dueling for the pistol if there isn’t any reason to bring a reflect as duelist is very potent.

I’ve also toyed around with a build taking the 4% damage on mantras as well though I typically only run that when I’m feeling a little selfish. I flipflop between rampagers or zerkers with some defense thrown in as needed depending on spec.

Can’t bring myself to post in the sky is falling oct 7th thread. We’re pretty amazing right now.

post to fix thread?

Edit: May as well be a useful post. I find myself using scepters a lot on bosses where melee is dangerous and I’d like to bring the duelist along. Although a staff may be better here since I’d typically run rampager to beef up bleeds from GS clones and CS would help my melee survive. Hrmm.

EasymodeX.4062:

A coherent build focuses generally on one segment, without neglecting other segments.

This is the key part. Most bad players of bad builds will neglect the other mechanics in favor of over-investing into a single mechanic. For example, bad shatter builds will shatter 24×7, and will not let clone/phantasms maximize their uptime (while shattering).

Sorry, long reply incoming.

First, I’d like to take issue with your use of the term bad players to refer to anyone who runs a sub-optimal build or who is not performing perfectly in the optimal sequence of ability usage.

I think this kind of condescending language is unhelpful – personally I’d encourage anyone who plays a game like this to really experiment with unusual trait, ability, gear or rotation choices to see what works for them. Maybe they won’t do quite as big damage numbers as would be possible through the more popular ‘flavour-of-the-month’ builds or rotations, but I think calling them ‘bad players’ is really dismissive of one of the most enjoyable parts of an MMORPG – choosing how to play your own individual character. It also might enable someone to find the most enjoyable style of gameplay for themselves, especially if the popular builds aren’t necessarily to their tastes.

Personally, the only people I would think of as ‘bad players’ are those who seem incapable of cooperating or playing nicely with others, or who seem completely uninterested in engaging in or at least maintaining the roleplaying environment around them. Both of these would seem to me to be the only prescriptive requirements of playing a massively multiplayer roleplaying game. That’s not to say you are one of those, I just mean that’s the only behaviour I would consider ‘bad play’.

On your argument that all three mechanics are used by all Mesmers if they want to be most effective, I completely agree. Where I don’t quite agree with you is in the fact that shatter synergises as well as it could with the way illusions have been implemented in GW2.

Each shatter can absolutely be useful in certain situations. It can be useful regardless of whether the Mesmer is traited heavily for minion-DPS, minion-support, minion-bombing or direct offense, again I completely agree. I certainly make use of the shatter abilities occasionally on my Mesmer because to not do so at times would be sub-optimal. My personal view, however, is that this profession mechanic is not contributing as much cohesion and fun as it could – and it often feels to me like it interrupts the ‘flow’ of what my character is actually trying to do.

I would describe the way shatter works as building up resources that can then be spent on burst damage or a few seconds of defense. In the sense of consumable resources, it’s just like a Warrior’s adrenaline, a Thief’s initiative, or a Necromancer’s life-force. That’s completely fine.

The difference with shatters comes from the fact that the unspent resources themselves are far more interesting and valuable (and I would say profession-defining) than the pay-off. Numerous traits imply that a Mesmer with illusions is a Good Thing: more offense per illusion alive, more defense per illusion alive, team regeneration while phantasms are alive, more damage (through two traits) through illusions while they are alive, and increased critical damage of illusions while they are alive. Enemies who are able to quickly dispatch a Mesmer’s illusions are at a significant advantage compared to those who leave them free to continue their harassment, just as being able to quickly remove conditions places you at a significant advantage when opposing a condition-focused offence. And yet the central profession mechanic, no matter what build, depends upon the appeal of wiping out the on-going benefits of illusions yourself.

Yes, illusions can be very quickly re-summoned and hence resource accumulation is swift even if you are frequently shattering your illusions, that’s absolutely true. Certainly I’m not arguing that shatter is exclusive to illusion use. Nor am I trying to say that any form of an exchange mechanic where you sacrifice one benefit for a completely different benefit cannot work.

(continued in next post)