Guild Wars 2

A lot of the new trait stuff offered feels like Magical Christmasland. Look at the way IP is baseline, look at the new Prismatic Understanding, look at Evasive Mirror. All kinds of goodies. It’s definitely a power-up.

But I wanted to bring this up now, fairly early in the development process, because I think there’s some realignment here that restricts builds a bit…

1. Halting Strike moved into Power Block.
Originally: Halting Strike is an easily accessible trait that lets even non-lockdown builds diversify their damage, by adding (situational) damaging power to F3, iWave, and Chaos Storm. (I also personally really enjoyed being able to trait for More iWave in interrupt builds.)
Changes: The Halting Strike equivalent competes with improved Mental Torment and Greatsword Training. It’s much harder to use it as a damage enhancement in not-just-interrupt builds.

2. Harmonious Mantras competes with Deceptive Evasion.
Originally: If you go full Dueling, you can take DE in your master slot and HM in your GM slot.
Changes: You now have to choose DE or HM. DE is such a centerpiece of PvP/WvW Mesmer builds that I’m having a hard time envisioning what you’d do with HM, especially since Mistrust might compete a bit for interrupt builds’ attention. It does look awful tempting from a pure damage perspective, but “Phantrupt” is definitely a niche within a niche.

~

(This is the long and entirely optional “What I think you be nice” section.)

What I think would be nice — maybe this is Magical Christmasland, too, but the new trait revisions are clearly about giving you more stuff, so let’s throw this in, why not?

1. Halting Strike

• Halting Strike equivalent trait at Adept. Your big choice here is between HS and Empower Illusions, basically. (Rending Shatter is kinda sad and could probably be merged into Shattered Concentration, if we’re being honest.)
• Merge Confounding Suggestions into Power Block or Furious Interruption instead, if needed. Consider splitting it between the two somehow. How ‘bout Furious Interruption gets the Stun (since it’s on a 5-sec cooldown like the Quickness) and Power Block gets the Daze duration, but increases to +50%? (I worry that PB won’t be that desirable otherwise. Between Weakness and the longer Daze, it might be strong enough against thieves to make up for its signature ability doing nothing.)
• This setup gives you more incentive to learn interrupt timing during leveling, since you get to see the immediate impact of good interrupts in the form of nice damage numbers.

2. Deceptive Evasion
Hmm, it’s hard to justify moving DE to any tier, really. Making it a minor would mess with Phantasm builds, which have reason to go into Dueling for Fury. How ’bout this?

• Deceptive Evasion becomes an Adept trait — early access is good because this is such a defining mesmer ability.
• To compensate for moving DE down, promote Duelist’s Discipline to Master — this is desirable since hardcore phantasm builds will want both DD and Fury.
• Now promote Evasive Mirror to Grandmaster — this is setting it up as the default GM trait for shatter-type builds. You can also combine it with Blade Training if you want max reflect time.
• This setup creates an Adept-tier choice between DE shatter builds and Phantasmal Fury phant builds.

This post is well-written out and provides a very good solution to conflicts I noticed myself.
I approve!

I really hope Anet’ll be open to suggestions on this…

i agree, i suggest
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/mantra-shouldnt-compete-with-Deceptive/first#post5003649

for deceptive evasion/mantra conflict

short version:
i suggest merge GS/S buff traits move harmonious to domination, and create a new phantasm gets crit hit/and some other bonus on creation trait for dueling

I think the point of having Duelist’s Discipline as an Adept trait is so one can choose to take it along with Blade Training or take Phantasmal Fury along with Blade Training instead. I believe further consideration is necessary for formulation of a setup that allows one to pick and choose between any combination of the three as well as Deceptive Evasion if at all possible.

I’m going to start by saying i’m ok with how things are setup… but if they were to just swap the positions of duelist disc. and sword training life could be even more awesome.
Being able to get evasive mirror with sword training.. or phantasmal fury with duelist disc would be awesome and more synergistic imo. But maybe that was the point? they positioned them purposefully to limit they’re effects?

Mikkel.8427:

I’m going to start by saying i’m ok with how things are setup… but if they were to just swap the positions of duelist disc. and sword training life could be even more awesome.
Being able to get evasive mirror with sword training.. or phantasmal fury with duelist disc would be awesome and more synergistic imo. But maybe that was the point? they positioned them purposefully to limit they’re effects?

No offense, but as someone who mains Mesmer in PvE, I absolutely abhor the idea of having to forgo Phantasmal Fury to get Blade Training.

They need to make DE baseline or try their best to separate it from non-shatter builds ( which is what they are trying to do maybe)

As for the halting strike, it contributed to shatter’s dominance (of course not the only reason) so I have no problems with shatter not being able to take that; they need to raise the other specs to shatter’s level.

Like, okay, here are the trait combos that I think you’re likely to see most in Dueling right now:

Phantasmal Fury — Blade Training — (Harmonious Mantras?)
Your basic PvE phantasm build. HM might be good but it might be useless depending on the supporting skills you most want.
Underwhelming GM trait.

(Desperate Decoy?) — Blinding Dissipation — Deceptive Evasion
Your basic shatter stuff. The minor trait here is pretty much “Enh, why not?” I could see Phantasmal Fury in its place. Either one is basically a throw-in.
Underwhelming Adept choices.

Duelist’s Discipline — Blade Training — Harmonious Mantras
Duelist’s Discipline — Blade Training — Mistrust
Likely “phantrup” setups. Could use Evasive Mirror in place of Blade Training as well.
Reasonable overall.

What about a less phantasm-oriented interrupt build? Well, now you’re in trouble because of the DE/HM conflict. Maybe I’m overstating that, but, like, to be honest: I love playing builds like that, even if they’re not really meta.

~

In contrast, here are the trait combos that I see as most worth encouraging in Dueling:

Phantasmal Fury — Blade Training — Evasive Mirror
This feels like a pretty solid typical dungeon-damage setup. Being able to access reflects on Blurred Frenzy or dodging is pretty strong. (Harmonious Mantras might be the personal-DPS alternative, or the flow may not be worthwhile. Dunno. My guess is the former.)

Deceptive Evasion — Blinding Dissipation — Evasive Mirror
Deceptive Evasion — Blinding Dissipation — Mistrust
These are your most likely shatter specs. Option to choose Confusion or screw with ranged fighters. (If neither of those is to taste, you can get some extra value out of Mantra of Resolve. Not bad, either.)

Phantasmal Fury — Duelist’s Discipline — Harmonious Mantras
Phantasmal Fury — Duelist’s Discipline — Mistrust
Phantasmal Fury — Duelist’s Discipline — Evasive Mirror
Phantrupt with the option of taking more interrupts, extra condi damage, or screwing with the pistol-mesmer mirror-match by taking Evasive Mirror.

Deceptive Evasion — Blinding Dissipation — Harmonious Mantras
For somewhat more controlling/supporting build with shatters. (Taking Inspiration to get mantra healing, and either Chaos or Domination depending on whether you want to immobilize foes or rip their boons.)

ASP.8093:

A lot of the new trait stuff offered feels like Magical Christmasland. Look at the way IP is baseline, look at the new Prismatic Understanding, look at Evasive Mirror. All kinds of goodies. It’s definitely a power-up.

But I wanted to bring this up now, fairly early in the development process, because I think there’s some realignment here that restricts builds a bit…

1. Halting Strike moved into Power Block.

2. Harmonious Mantras competes with Deceptive Evasion.

1. Halting Strike

2. Deceptive Evasion

-snip-

I think halting strike was an overpower trait to be perfectly honest. It gave Mesmers an additional source of damage with no ICD other than the amount of interrupts you can apply. The trait can also crit (fire + air sigils) causing a lot of damage to more squishier targets. Moving DE to a minor is just asking for too much. The problem with DE is it essential to almost every mesmer build. However, without DE you can dodge things such as thieves CnD and you’ll actually dodge the attack and they won’t go invis. Mantra builds are being punished the most with DE being grandmaster. Sure most builds will still have to take DE. I don’t think you could ever eliminate DE unless you either make it a class mechanic or increase mesmer clone generation; out of all the amazing changes we get, people are still complaining about DE. If you move DE around all you are doing is just buffing the class even more than it potentially has. Making it a minor trait would be absolutely insane – at that point you’d have to add an ICD of 10secs on it to make it even balanced. Doesn’t matter which traitline DE goes, mesmers will follow or will have to adapt.

Jedge, I agree with you about DE. That’s why I’m pitching it as an Adept major rather than a minor.

ASP.8093:

Jedge, I agree with you about DE. That’s why I’m pitching it as an Adept major rather than a minor.

Honestly, I would love if it was moved to either a major or grandmaster minor trait. I just think that adding it as any minor trait would be extremely strong.

I just want to say that some overlap may be entirely intentional. If there are no hard choices, then there aren’t really options so much as there is “the right way.” That’s not to say mutually exclusive situations are innately fine though.

I’m a bit confused by Master of Fragmentation and Maim the Disillusioned being on the same tier. I have a ton of the shatter traits and Maim the Disillusioned on my Mesmer right now, and it still doesn’t feel like it really does anything to anyone most of the time. Now, there will obviously be some rebalancing, but it still seems weird to choose between “a bunch of buffs to shatter” and “just Torment to shatter.”

The other thing that baffles me is the Inspiration tree.

All of the Minor Traits deal with Phantasms. Persisting Images and Protected Phantasms are buffs to the Phantasms themselves, and Phantasmal Healing encourages you to keep them around.

However, one Adept Trait, two Master Traits, and one Grandmaster Trait deal with shattering illusions. Of course, you can choose not to take those, but if you do, you can’t choose to not take the Minor Traits. In other words, if you want those shatter Traits, you’ve essentially got some dead Minor Traits on your hands, don’t you?

ASP.8093:

Like, okay, here are the trait combos that I think you’re likely to see most in Dueling right now:

Phantasmal Fury — Blade Training — (Harmonious Mantras?)
Your basic PvE phantasm build. HM might be good but it might be useless depending on the supporting skills you most want.
Underwhelming GM trait.

(Desperate Decoy?) — Blinding Dissipation — Deceptive Evasion
Your basic shatter stuff. The minor trait here is pretty much “Enh, why not?” I could see Phantasmal Fury in its place. Either one is basically a throw-in.
Underwhelming Adept choices.

Duelist’s Discipline — Blade Training — Harmonious Mantras
Duelist’s Discipline — Blade Training — Mistrust
Likely “phantrup” setups. Could use Evasive Mirror in place of Blade Training as well.
Reasonable overall.

What about a less phantasm-oriented interrupt build? Well, now you’re in trouble because of the DE/HM conflict. Maybe I’m overstating that, but, like, to be honest: I love playing builds like that, even if they’re not really meta.

~

In contrast, here are the trait combos that I see as most worth encouraging in Dueling:

Phantasmal Fury — Blade Training — Evasive Mirror
This feels like a pretty solid typical dungeon-damage setup. Being able to access reflects on Blurred Frenzy or dodging is pretty strong. (Harmonious Mantras might be the personal-DPS alternative, or the flow may not be worthwhile. Dunno. My guess is the former.)

Deceptive Evasion — Blinding Dissipation — Evasive Mirror
Deceptive Evasion — Blinding Dissipation — Mistrust
These are your most likely shatter specs. Option to choose Confusion or screw with ranged fighters. (If neither of those is to taste, you can get some extra value out of Mantra of Resolve. Not bad, either.)

Phantasmal Fury — Duelist’s Discipline — Harmonious Mantras
Phantasmal Fury — Duelist’s Discipline — Mistrust
Phantasmal Fury — Duelist’s Discipline — Evasive Mirror
Phantrupt with the option of taking more interrupts, extra condi damage, or screwing with the pistol-mesmer mirror-match by taking Evasive Mirror.

Deceptive Evasion — Blinding Dissipation — Harmonious Mantras
For somewhat more controlling/supporting build with shatters. (Taking Inspiration to get mantra healing, and either Chaos or Domination depending on whether you want to immobilize foes or rip their boons.)

i say move HM to power replacing the greatsword trait. at GM teir.
i think halting shouldnt be a GM trait.
greatsword/sword trait merge.
that GS trait is really underwelming as a GM anyhow.

I like most of your ideas, ASP. I think you’ve spelled out the problems with DE in its current spot pretty well.

I mean, yeah, the Phantasm vs. Literally Every Other Build issue means both that DE can never be a baseline trait and that it will always dominate whatever tier it’s in.

Part of me wonders whether putting DE where it is could be an attempt to encourage us to experiment with Phantasm builds outside of just Dungeons/Fractals. Chronomancer could be the missing piece of the puzzle here that makes Phantasms viable in PvP or WvW. Inspiration already has some good support stuff going on with Phantasms, maybe Chronomancer pushes that further while also having a strong synergy with Harmonious Mantras or Mistrust? A longshot, I know, but within the realm of possibility.

EDIT: Actually, the more I think about this, the more it seems like Harmonious Mantras is actually the odd trait out here. Maybe it should replace one of the way-off-meta traits like Medic’s Feedback (with some shuffling to prevent HM from competing with Mender’s Purity, since they have such great synergy), and then the third Dueling GM could be something that boosts Phantasm build damage.

EDIT2: On top of the above, we shouldn’t forget about Stronghold. Maybe Phantasm builds without DE could have a niche there as a solo gate defender?

As a player who uses harmonious mantras in every build for years I’m absolutely okay with the DE overlap! It still allows 3 potential playstyles:

Phantasms + interrupts + mantra/healing. These overlap really easily now and can dish out substantially more damage than they used to. It doesn’t lose shatters completely now that IP is baseline.

Mantras + interrupts: The interrupts are so incredibly nasty that you don’t need big shatters or buffed phantasms to be effective.

Cooldown reduction shenanigans: Using greatsword, staff or pistol traits it seems likely you can pump out clones without DE – obviously nothing to base an entire shatter build on, but with IP as well you will be fine.

Honestly the fact is DE NEEDS to be a grandmaster for anything else to compete. If you still want it inbuilt or minor and not overwriting phantasms that’s okay too – but dropping to adept or master will be worse than the current plan.

Toeofdoom.6152:

As a player who uses harmonious mantras in every build for years I’m absolutely okay with the DE overlap! It still allows 3 potential playstyles:

Phantasms + interrupts + mantra/healing. These overlap really easily now and can dish out substantially more damage than they used to. It doesn’t lose shatters completely now that IP is baseline.

Mantras + interrupts: The interrupts are so incredibly nasty that you don’t need big shatters or buffed phantasms to be effective.

Cooldown reduction shenanigans: Using greatsword, staff or pistol traits it seems likely you can pump out clones without DE – obviously nothing to base an entire shatter build on, but with IP as well you will be fine.

Honestly the fact is DE NEEDS to be a grandmaster for anything else to compete. If you still want it inbuilt or minor and not overwriting phantasms that’s okay too – but dropping to adept or master will be worse than the current plan.

in PVE interupts will always be 1 per 5 seconds and need skill.
and that is IF defiance allows interupts to count when they are blocked.

mantras basically needs a quick resource because of recasting. They arent powerful enough to make up for being able to do nothing for 2.75 seconds without a much faster resource generation. not to mention to take advantage of the damage buff, you need to be using it up constantly. (which means recasting eventually.

This thread is irrelevant for pve as it stands, as no-one would take DE or Halting strike over just about anything, so I was assuming its a pvp thing.

I think in combat mantra recasts are very useful for a variety of reasons… They are easily powerful to make up for the cast time once they have a trait or two behind them – the trick in pvp is just to avoid hits while doing so. In pve it could hardly be easier and keeping mantra of pain on the bar is perfectly reasonable compared to the previous plan (Multiple mantras you never used). Last I checked traited mantra of pain outdamages sword autoattack and hits more targets.

Toeofdoom.6152:

This thread is irrelevant for pve as it stands, as no-one would take DE or Halting strike over just about anything, so I was assuming its a pvp thing.

I think in combat mantra recasts are very useful for a variety of reasons… They are easily powerful to make up for the cast time once they have a trait or two behind them – the trick in pvp is just to avoid hits while doing so. In pve it could hardly be easier and keeping mantra of pain on the bar is perfectly reasonable compared to the previous plan (Multiple mantras you never used). Last I checked traited mantra of pain outdamages sword autoattack and hits more targets.

mantra of pain has a 2.75 cast time in which you can do nothing.
dodge during cast resets it
it also has 1 second between casts
327×3/4.75= 202 dps

AA
202+202+404/1.5seconds = 293 per second (without having to stand still for 2.75 seconds)

the advantage of powerspike is being able to unload it while doing other things instantly. It has never been great for pure DPS.
so basically you can front load your dmg, then it goes down while you recharge. not being able to get your main resource back quickly makes the long cast times even more detrimental.

shatters is one of the few things you can do while casting, but it requires resource to be effective, preferably clones so as not to waste power.

Right, but remember you can still use sword autoattack while spamming charges, so the correct number for mantra of pain is:
327×3/2.75 = 356 dps.
So it’s higher than sword AA.

Toeofdoom.6152:

Right, but remember you can still use sword autoattack while spamming charges, so the correct number for mantra of pain is:
327×3/2.75 = 356 dps.
So it’s higher than sword AA.

higher than sword AA alone yea, but that requires not doing anything for 2.75 seconds to maintain. no dodge for 2.75 out of every 4.75 seconds. no resource generation, no control.

The choice between the additional mantra charge and Deceptive Evasion is destroying my mantra-shatter build (4-6-0-4-0 with Mantra of Recovery and Mantra of Distraction).

Regarding Deceptive Evasion:
Deceptive Evasion is part of the game play decision: How do you want to play your mesmer? Similar to the choice between ‘Mental Torment’ (Shatter) or ‘Power Block’ (more interrupt focused).
The thing is: the play styles are overlapping. The trait setup currently known as ‘shatter’ is using ‘Halting strike’ and not ‘Mental Torment’, because that way he does not rely on a single ability to hit his foe, but gets an additional damage source.

Now back to Deceptive Evasion: Clones provide conditions on the target, keep you alive, and are an important part of your damage.
You want deceptive evasion in every situation where your illusions die. Since DE is not overwriting phantasms, you even want clones when a big boss just killed your phantasms to keep up at least some condis on the target.
Ofc DE is most important on a) a spec using the shatter skills or b) you want a high clone uptime for condi procs

Since Deceptive Evasion is so important (I’d argue even more important than Illusionary Persona), which traits can really compete with such a must-have-trait?
a) a phantasm focused trait like ‘Phantasmal Fury’ or ‘Phantasmal Haste’
b) a mantra dps focused trait. But not in the way like the trait currently looks like

When do you use mantras?
a) You want to support your group with healing, condi remove and/or stability
b) You want an additional source of interrupt with ‘Mantra of Distraction’
c) You want to increase your dps with ‘Empowering Mantras’ and ‘Power Spike’.

Only the choice c) is changing your playstyle to a heavy mantra focused play style.
The other two are just support your existing play style, but those also need Deceptive Evasion.

Suggestion:
Change the new ‘Harmonious Mantras’ Trait that you only want to take it, if you are playing with a heavy mantra focused playstyle BUT still leaving it viable to pick mantras without the trait.
Suggestion: Make the additional mantra charge baseline.
And include some ‘Mantra of Pain’ / ‘Power Spike’ damage modifier.

TL.DR.
The new ‘Harmonious Mantra’ trait should look this:
Activating a mantra gives a stacking ferocity bonus of 4% (up to 20%).
Power Spike has an increased critical hit chance of 20%.

Harmonious mantras should NOT conflict with deceptive evasive, Please dev you destroy kitteneful bild in PVP, We want more diversity not destroying actual useful build…
I beg you to listen.

The build I use: 0/6/0/2/6 with harmonious and mained desillusion. Please don’t destroy this build…

I like your changes to the Domination line.

I disagree with your changes to Dueling. Here is what I would do with Dueling as it was presented:
Swap the entire Adept and Master tiers, just so you can have access to blade training earlier.
Then, swap Deceptive Evasion with Phantasmal Fury as this makes you make a choice between you having more damage with Harmonious Mantras or your phantasms having more damage with Phantasmal Fury. It does put DE against Decoy, which may not be ideal, but you could swap Decoy with Evasive Mirror.

Then, if you still follow, you could swap Phantasmal Fury with the minor Confusing Combatants.

Saying “It’s so powerful it should be a GM trait” doesn’t quite make as much sense in the new environment.

The main difference between GM and Adept is when you get it while leveling, not how many resources you have to plow into it (like it is now).

The thing with DE is that everything short of a pure phantasm builds wants and needs DE. Because even your hardcore interrupt build relies on:

• Diversion shatter
• shatter for interrupts
• shatter for boon rips so you can actually ever hit anyone with an interrupt
• shatter for a final burst to actually capitalize on the brief moment of immobilize/stun/can’t-use-your-heal-skill-for-4-seconds you’ve created with interrupts

And it’s pretty hard to get a nice three-clone shatter of any sort without DE. Because they die constantly to all kinds of stuff.

I still disagree about it being necessary now that everyone can use IP

• distortion works fine with IP
• you need 1 or maybe 2 clones to max out diversion, easy.
• you just got 4 bonus boon rips from IP if you need them
• final burst is quite high with 1 clone and self, extras aren’t that important.

There are also cooldown traits that may allow other fast sources of illusion production. In general the 1-2% numbers are expected to be bugs and potentially even mean seconds.

Toeofdoom.6152:

I still disagree about it being necessary now that everyone can use IP

• distortion works fine with IP
• you need 1 or maybe 2 clones to max out diversion, easy.
• you just got 4 bonus boon rips from IP if you need them
• final burst is quite high with 1 clone and self, extras aren’t that important.

There are also cooldown traits that may allow other fast sources of illusion production. In general the 1-2% numbers are expected to be bugs and potentially even mean seconds.

you dont NEED anything, but even with DE mantra build was not overperforming

think you forget is illusionary persona is a shatter based around the caster
so most on shatter effects/dmg are worthless unless the target is meleeing you at the time and diversion defaults to the target closest to you.

• distortion works better with more clones
• needing 1 or 2 clones is easier when you can create 2-6 more clones per 20 seconds
• 4 boon rips? gonna waste distortion/diversion on boon removal
• final burst is always higher with more clones https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona looks like the last clone is def worth it.

DE basically can give you 2-6 more clones per 20 seconds.
shattered clones can give

• random boons
• vulnerability
• remove boons
• vigor
• heals
• might
• torment

do you really think this stuff isnt valuable?

you realize many mantra mes had this before, and they were still considered niche? how will they do without it?

There is some really good stuff in here. I hope someone is paying attention, but I wont hold my breath..

I think of Harmonious Mantras as an really terrible trait in the way you have to play in order to utilize it. To waste your utility skills and deeply restrict your playstyle just for some <12% per cent dmg if you try to optimize it? Doesn’t sound like a good deal to me.

I therefore would like to see it removed. As this trait was used mostly in PvE it should be replaced by something that makes up for this. Because mesmers are mostly welcomed because of their ultilies and reflect, I would suggest to move Warden’s Feedback there and add about 25% reflect dmg to ALL of the mesmer skills that reflect. Considering the mesmers damage modifiers compared to those of the guardian I don’t think that would be much to high.
This also solves the problem for PvE mesmers that they would have to trade much damage in order to drop one traitline so that they can take Inspiration which contains nothing else that suits the berserker meta.

Evasive Mirror could then be moved to Inspiration so that it can be combined with Blade Training and so presents another defensive option for reflect instead of Warden’s Feedback.

A wekaer form of Harmonious Mantras could be fashioned as a Master trait (just remove the damage?) in Duelling to complete the line. So it can be equipped without sacrificing any of the GM traits instead.

Or in short:

1. Remove the damage from HM and make it an Master trait
2. Move Evasive Mirror to Inspiration instead
3. Make Warden’s Feedback the new Duelling GM trait and add 25% reflect damage

And I would like to to see Temporal Enchanter giving stability instead of super speed!

Neijala Ceya.1785:

I think of Harmonious Mantras as an really terrible trait in the way you have to play in order to utilize it. To waste your utility skills and deeply restrict your playstyle just for some <12% per cent dmg if you try to optimize it? Doesn’t sound like a good deal to me.

I therefore would like to see it removed. As this trait was used mostly in PvE it should be replaced by something that makes up for this. Because mesmers are mostly welcomed because of their ultilies and reflect, I would suggest to move Warden’s Feedback there and add about 25% reflect dmg to ALL of the mesmer skills that reflect. Considering the mesmers damage modifiers compared to those of the guardian I don’t think that would be much to high.
This also solves the problem for PvE mesmers that they would have to trade much damage in order to drop one traitline so that they can take Inspiration which contains nothing else that suits the berserker meta.

Evasive Mirror could then be moved to Inspiration so that it can be combined with Blade Training and so presents another defensive option for reflect instead of Warden’s Feedback.

A wekaer form of Harmonious Mantras could be fashioned as a Master trait (just remove the damage?) in Duelling to complete the line. So it can be equipped without sacrificing any of the GM traits instead.

Or in short:

1. Remove the damage from HM and make it an Master trait
2. Move Evasive Mirror to Inspiration instead
3. Make Warden’s Feedback the new Duelling GM trait and add 25% reflect damage

And I would like to to see Temporal Enchanter giving stability instead of super speed!

HM may not be optimal
but its a fun trait/different playstyle.

I really dont like getting rid of playstyle changes.

they are changing the DPS buff to be based on activation, buff to critcal damage, and stacking, which makes it not about just holding charges, but actively using them at the right time.
Basically burst related.

the functionality may change though.

having to use the healing line for the benefit of healing mantras, makes sense to me.

wardens feedback is too niche for GM imo.
dont think they want to increase reflect dmg either, people already claim OP on it.

Yes but a mesmer has no good bursts beside shatter. And shatter builds can not take mantras and deceptive evasion together, with second beeing important to have enough clones to shatter regularly.
So in PvE that trait will be keeping up the dmg modifier as much as possible by spamming your mantras.

Neijala Ceya.1785:

I think of Harmonious Mantras as an really terrible trait in the way you have to play in order to utilize it. To waste your utility skills and deeply restrict your playstyle just for some <12% per cent dmg if you try to optimize it? Doesn’t sound like a good deal to me.

You’re thinking of Empowered Mantras.

Harmonious Mantras is “each mantra gets an extra charge when charged.” I.e. 3 instead of 2. That means more healing, more interrupts, more condition removal, &c. Builds that run it right now tend to use about 2.5 mantras.

In the preview, a weird new alternative of Empowered Mantras (basically working the opposite way) has been merged into HM. Honestly, I’m hardly even thinking about that trait here.

…

Hmm. What if HM were “baseline?” Would it be particularly busted to give folks three charges of mantra heal, MoR, MoD, &c. by default?

In the current trait setup, the whole reason for taking HM if you can manage is that charging a mantra just go get 2 charges kinda sucks, but most of them end up pretty efficient at 3.

ASP.8093:

Neijala Ceya.1785:

I think of Harmonious Mantras as an really terrible trait in the way you have to play in order to utilize it. To waste your utility skills and deeply restrict your playstyle just for some <12% per cent dmg if you try to optimize it? Doesn’t sound like a good deal to me.

You’re thinking of Empowered Mantras.

Harmonious Mantras is “each mantra gets an extra charge when charged.” I.e. 3 instead of 2. That means more healing, more interrupts, more condition removal, &c. Builds that run it right now tend to use about 2.5 mantras.

In the preview, a weird new alternative of Empowered Mantras (basically working the opposite way) has been merged into HM. Honestly, I’m hardly even thinking about that trait here.

…

Hmm. What if HM were “baseline?” Would it be particularly busted to give folks three charges of mantra heal, MoR, MoD, &c. by default?

In the current trait setup, the whole reason for taking HM if you can manage is that charging a mantra just go get 2 charges kinda sucks, but most of them end up pretty efficient at 3.

i thought about that, but then what would the trait be, i dont think the dps one is good enough on its own, and a dps focused mantra trait probably shouldnt be opposed to a DE one.

I talk about the new HM trait as they want it to be. Mantra Damage was used in PvE to max damage. Though they have changed how the dmg works it would still be used this way in PvE (by spamming mantras).

The trait without the damage as a master trait would be perfectly fine and a good option for those who like to play with mantras. And it could be paired with DE, which would benefit shatter builds with mantras as well.

Problem is that DE is such an important skill in so many builds, especially for shatter. But shatter builds won’t focus on reflect so I dont think it is worse than not beeing able to trait mantras.

Neijala Ceya.1785:

I talk about the new HM trait as they want it to be. Mantra Damage was used in PvE to max damage. Though they have changed how the dmg works it would still be used this way in PvE (by spamming mantras).

The trait without the damage as a master trait would be perfectly fine and a good option for those who like to play with mantras. And it could be paired with DE, which would benefit shatter builds with mantras as well.

you wont easily get max damage if you have to use it constantly, before it was max damage because it was a passive buff. constantly casting mantras will cut into your dps/survivability.

Well that’s kind of the problem! In berserker meta that is what you would have to do (and you have no alternative good GM traits to offer other play styles). Though mantra of pain wouldn’t be a dps decrease I just don’t know see how any one would want to encourage such a playstyle. Most other classes have good damage options without limiting their playstyle because of just one trait.
Though there a lot of good changes for PvP, I dont think PvE should be completely left out when considering trait changes. And I’m missing something nice there.
I would rather loose some damage (mesmer dmg in PvE is bad compared to other classes anyway) if I gain a nice supporting role like the guardian that makes the mesmer worth taking along.

Evasive Mirror might do something for PvE. It’s tricky, though.

I think the best way to improve mesmer in PvE, besides solving the cases where phantasms die too fast to be useful, is to up the DPS on autos. Honestly, I think it wouldn’t hurt PvP that much because, you know, autos aren’t a big part of bursting.

Neijala Ceya.1785:

I talk about the new HM trait as they want it to be. Mantra Damage was used in PvE to max damage. Though they have changed how the dmg works it would still be used this way in PvE (by spamming mantras).

Oh, that’s quite a big difference from Empowered Mantras actually, and it’s something I totally missed before.

The rest of your post is kind of dismissing the idea of a Mantra build, but TBH a Mantra build that gives you Ferocity for using mantras sounds pretty sweet. Especially considering that Mantra of Distraction is a key utility for interrupt builds. And the other Mantras are handy for condition cleanse and stability, too.

I mean, a Condirupt build is going to prefer Mistrust, but what about a Power-based interrupt build? I’m thinking you put the new HM in a Dom/Due/Cha build with Power Block and Chaotic Interruption. One well-timed use of Power Lock will set up a really nasty follow-up burst.

Also consider the new HM as a way to add damage to a support build that was already using Mantra heal for Mender’s Purity and running the condi cleanse and Stability mantras in the utility slots.

I dunno, it sounds pretty good to me.

My concern is mostly for PvE and not PvP. So I guess we misunderstood each other.
And an interrupt build won’t work very well in PvE.

I think there are plenty nice options for builds in PvP and HM could be used there nicely to bust an enemy with shatter. The problem is that there are so many traits that won’t be useful in the current PvE meta and PvE mesmers should have at least 1 good option (which doesn’t include spamming mantras to keep a damage buff up any other class could have far easier).

Neijala Ceya.1785:

My concern is mostly for PvE and not PvP. So I guess we misunderstood each other.
And an interrupt build won’t work very well in PvE.

I think there are plenty nice options for builds in PvP and HM could be used there nicely to bust an enemy with shatter. The problem is that there are so many traits that won’t be useful in the current PvE meta and PvE mesmers should have at least 1 good option (which doesn’t include spamming mantras to keep a damage buff up any other class could have far easier).

i wouldnt put all my hopes for DPS on any one build
Ie, their goal should be to have multiple playstyles that can achieve good enough DPS through some means or another.

Also i dont know if optimal DPS is the only roles that matter for PVE. supporting the whole team has always been fairly important.

also i hope encounters, and AI is improved so that fights arent as simple as they are now.

DPS is the most important thing in meta. You only trait supports when it is really necassary in the situation or you take it along because there is no option for dmg increase instead.

Depending on the enemies you need reflect, blindness, condi remove or stability and maybe some aegis. Most of those can be provided without the need to trait them. Not considering blindness all of those can easily be provided by a single guard while mantaining high dps. Even if more of those are needed a second guard will stake make more damage than a mesmer providing the reflect and condi cleanse.

Regen and additional heal are not needed. Maybe protection, but for that the guard will equip a hammer and won’t lose much damage doing so.

Neijala Ceya.1785:

DPS is the most important thing in meta. You only trait supports when it is really necassary in the situation or you take it along because there is no option for dmg increase instead.

Depending on the enemies you need reflect, blindness, condi remove or stability and maybe some aegis. Most of those can be provided without the need to trait them. Not considering blindness all of those can easily be provided by a single guard while mantaining high dps. Even if more of those are needed a second guard will stake make more damage than a mesmer providing the reflect and condi cleanse.

Regen and additional heal are not needed. Maybe protection, but for that the guard will equip a hammer and won’t lose much damage doing so.

Team dps is most important, personal dps isnt. Warrior and guardian both have higher DPS builds, but they provide things that keeps the group DPS higher more easily with other builds, that are meta.

Also keep in mind the encounter design effects the meta as well. Defiance bar itself may change the nature of the value of various CCs

anyhow, point is there is a range of acceptable dps depending on what else you provide.

Sure, but personal dmg is part of group damage and a mesmer has no buffs to increase group damage that cannot be provided better by another class.

Since we cannot know what will be in the future there is no point to dicuss anything but the here and now.

Neijala Ceya.1785:

My concern is mostly for PvE and not PvP. So I guess we misunderstood each other.
And an interrupt build won’t work very well in PvE.

Actually, our interrupt skills will carry a lot of weight when breaking through Defiance. So I wouldn’t be so sure that an interrupt has no place there.

But the main reason I brought up a PvP-style build is that the main argument against HM as a GM trait is that it’s competing with Deceptive Evasion. DE isn’t considered core in PvE builds, so there’s not really a strong argument against taking HM in a non-interrupt PvE build.

So, if we’re talking about PvE, picture a Phantasm/Reflect support build that goes Due/Ins/X to combo Warden’s Feedback with Evasive Mirror. You’re going to be using Mantras for condi cleanse, stability, and heals anyway. Why not get more mantra uses and a damage buff to it? Dungeon reflect builds already went for Assassin stats, and that synergises with the buff HM gives you on Mantra use. And, again, it’s not like you’re going to use DE for PvE content.

tobascodagama.2961:

Neijala Ceya.1785:

My concern is mostly for PvE and not PvP. So I guess we misunderstood each other.
And an interrupt build won’t work very well in PvE.

Actually, our interrupt skills will carry a lot of weight when breaking through Defiance. So I wouldn’t be so sure that an interrupt has no place there.

But the main reason I brought up a PvP-style build is that the main argument against HM as a GM trait is that it’s competing with Deceptive Evasion. DE isn’t considered core in PvE builds, so there’s not really a strong argument against taking HM in a non-interrupt PvE build.

So, if we’re talking about PvE, picture a Phantasm/Reflect support build that goes Due/Ins/X to combo Warden’s Feedback with Evasive Mirror. You’re going to be using Mantras for condi cleanse, stability, and heals anyway. Why not get more mantra uses and a damage buff to it? Dungeon reflect builds already went for Assassin stats, and that synergises with the buff HM gives you on Mantra use. And, again, it’s not like you’re going to use DE for PvE content.

this is a flawed premise, they arent trying to make DE into pvp only builds. Also just because a build isnt top DPS doesnt mean it shouldnt exist.

short version DE+HM should definately be a possibility

Hmm… What happens if you just move HM to Inspiration? (Where it kinda fits in thematically, and gets to live with its best friend Mender’s Purity.)

ASP.8093:

Hmm… What happens if you just move HM to Inspiration? (Where it kinda fits in thematically, and gets to live with its best friend Mender’s Purity.)

it doesnt fit in inspiration really. Its about more power. if i had to move it, i would move it to illusion or domination.

truth is, it doesnt fit perfectly anywhere theme wise.

My only question.. Will the new Inspiration GM (cast signet of inspiration on phant summon) activate the signet trait. O.o

Distortion/cleans on phant summon ftw … Every 36 seconds.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

My only question.. Will the new Inspiration GM (cast signet of inspiration on phant summon) activate the signet trait. O.o

Distortion/cleans on phant summon ftw … Every 36 seconds.

Yes, they specifically stated that on stream.

phys.7689:

it doesnt fit in inspiration really. Its about more power. if i had to move it, i would move it to illusion or domination.

truth is, it doesnt fit perfectly anywhere theme wise.

Mantras are literally little phrases you chant to yourself to focus spiritually. Thematically, that’s dead-on for Inspiration.

skcamow.3527:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

My only question.. Will the new Inspiration GM (cast signet of inspiration on phant summon) activate the signet trait. O.o

Distortion/cleans on phant summon ftw … Every 36 seconds.

Yes, they specifically stated that on stream.

Oh, my.