Guild Wars 2

Exciton.8942:

It’s kinda funny when shoutbow/medi guard/cele ele/cele engi dominate the scene, teams stack those professions in PvP.

Now we are supposed to be the OP profession but hardly any team takes more than 1 mesmer. Even after patch, you see ESL teams stack ele, stack warrior, stack guardian. But I don’t see any stack mesmers. And also PU is not even a popular trait among those mesmers.

Yeah, we have CS being too strong and PU being too forgiving. Damage might be a bit too high. But it is not like you auto win by just playing mesmer. People are exaggerating things to an unimaginable level.

Some people could have an agenda if they are really bearing a grudge against mesmers. But unfortunately, I’m guessing a lot of it is just ignorance of how mesmers work. If someone gets totally destroyed by a mesmer post patch and it makes them angry, sadly the first response is usually go to the forums and complain about it, instead of actually making a mesmer and learning the class inside and out. So while some of it is probably intentional exaggeration in hopes of getting something nerfed to pre-patch levels again, I’d bet that a lot of it is just people trying to describe a class that they’ve never played themselves and only have experience fighting against.

Exciton.8942:

It’s kinda funny when shoutbow/medi guard/cele ele/cele engi dominate the scene, teams stack those professions in PvP.

Now we are supposed to be the OP profession but hardly any team takes more than 1 mesmer. Even after patch, you see ESL teams stack ele, stack warrior, stack guardian. But I don’t see any stack mesmers. And also PU is not even a popular trait among those mesmers..

That’s the problem, the word you’re looking for isn’t overpowered, it’s toxic. Doesn’t serve any other purpose than the selfish one consisting of drinking the tears of less experienced players.

Sadly, it’s priceless for a lot of players, that makes for a decent bandwagon.

Fay.2357:

jayson.6512:

Fay.2357:

jayson.6512:

Fay.2357:

jayson.6512:

Most of the mesmer main said that mesmer has a high skill cap after patch but i just saw this vid and mesmer rn has a low skill cap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtf63IpFLHw

It’s sorta adorable that you think a shatter montage is justification for literally anything.

I think you don’t get what i want to say when i post this? do you remember when a warrior Hambow healing signet is a thing that they can just stand and win even not outplaying the other player? What i want to say is that those kind of build should not exist because it makes the game boring. And same with this build.

You’re trying to say that mesmer has a low skill cap based off of a WvW shatter montage. I’m laughing at you for doing so.

Whatever dude this show that guild wars 2 players as long they main the class they won’t admit if it’s broken. Guild Wars 2 player always my class is not broken but other class is so please nerf them. I only main a warrior and i admit that some of the build is broken and that’s why i stop playing for now in spvp because everybody there thinks they are pro. And i’m calling mesmer has a low skill cap base on some broken builds if you can’t admit it then fine.

No, what you’re doing is making a fool of yourself. You clearly don’t understand what a skill cap is. You clearly don’t understand how little a shatter montage demonstrates anything. You clearly have only a tenuous grasp of how to formulate a coherent argument, and all of this is displayed clearly for anyone looking at this conversation.

Actually i look like a fool everytime i encounter a mesmer after patch because whatever build or counter build i make it just doesn’t work. someone said here maybe my dueling partner is better than me before patch but the truth is we are just on the same level how do i know we are on the same level? because after this balance patch he didn’t even need to outplay me and doesn’t even need to change build to counter my builds unlike then we switch different build to counter one another and if someone mess up you lose. But i have to make different builds just to find out how to counter him. Look i’m not here trying to make your class unplayable but it’s really not fun i love GW2 pvp but right now i can’t enjoy it seeing those low skilled players using cheesy build or broken builds to dominate.

jayson.6512:

Fay.2357:

jayson.6512:

Fay.2357:

jayson.6512:

Fay.2357:

jayson.6512:

Most of the mesmer main said that mesmer has a high skill cap after patch but i just saw this vid and mesmer rn has a low skill cap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtf63IpFLHw

It’s sorta adorable that you think a shatter montage is justification for literally anything.

I think you don’t get what i want to say when i post this? do you remember when a warrior Hambow healing signet is a thing that they can just stand and win even not outplaying the other player? What i want to say is that those kind of build should not exist because it makes the game boring. And same with this build.

You’re trying to say that mesmer has a low skill cap based off of a WvW shatter montage. I’m laughing at you for doing so.

Whatever dude this show that guild wars 2 players as long they main the class they won’t admit if it’s broken. Guild Wars 2 player always my class is not broken but other class is so please nerf them. I only main a warrior and i admit that some of the build is broken and that’s why i stop playing for now in spvp because everybody there thinks they are pro. And i’m calling mesmer has a low skill cap base on some broken builds if you can’t admit it then fine.

No, what you’re doing is making a fool of yourself. You clearly don’t understand what a skill cap is. You clearly don’t understand how little a shatter montage demonstrates anything. You clearly have only a tenuous grasp of how to formulate a coherent argument, and all of this is displayed clearly for anyone looking at this conversation.

Actually i look like a fool everytime i encounter a mesmer after patch because whatever build or counter build i make it just doesn’t work. someone said here maybe my dueling partner is better than me before patch but the truth is we are just on the same level how do i know we are on the same level? because after this balance patch he didn’t even need to outplay me and doesn’t even need to change build to counter my builds unlike then we switch different build to counter one another and if someone mess up you lose. But i have to make different builds just to find out how to counter him. Look i’m not here trying to make your class unplayable but it’s really not fun i love GW2 pvp but right now i can’t enjoy it seeing those low skilled players using cheesy build or broken builds to dominate.

You are basing your entire mission or hate on dueling??? Gw2 the name itself implies what? The game has also stated dueling is something for fun to see you had the biggest internet p****s. It just inflates egos. Sorry you can’t duel or have yet to find a counter. If you ego is so insulted then maybe learn another class and duel. But why rage over an unsupported not designed for way to play the game.

I think basing some balance decisions around 1v1s is a good start to balancing team play. If one class can absolutely WRECK another effortlessly in 1v1 well its probably going to only get worse when that same class jumps the inferior one vs him in a team fight.

apharma.3741:

Choppy, stop with this thieves get 3s of stealth and have less than mesmers BS. It shows you either have no grasp on stealth and the mechanic or you need to learn to thief.

Thieves can stack stealth to stay in stealth permanently and choose when to engage. They also have a short bow for extreme gap opening if the fight goes sour and can then stealth engage after. Many are training stealth on steal as well so that’s a teleport, damage, heal, stealth into backstabbing and heartseeker.

This is without mentioning you’re mainly talking about WvW and as that other person mentioned in another thread, use stealth traps if they’re really giving you a problem.

Now, how’s that pre patch mesmer build I linked for you working for you?

Lol, settle down apharma. Denis made a silly argument and I used thieves as a way to expose the ridiculousness of the argument. Stealth traps during a fight is another ridiculous thing to say.

Necrotize.2974:

People(myself included) have outlined a risks to PU in all game modes, you just choose to ignore them and spout some random cross-class comparisons. Just gonna recap them since I’m really getting tired of every other mesmer thread devolving into the same conversation.

In SPvP, stealth prevent point capture as well as point contesting, so PU is not the best choice for point to point rotating(which is what mesmer is great at)….

PvE doesn’t really matter as stealth skills are only used for skips anyway….

WvW. This is where all the problems come up because people keep dragging roaming into this. In Zerg v Zerg, PU probably isn’t the best option….

Only reason I said stealth traps could work in the other thread is because when you’re actually playing the way game developers intended(I.E, not 1v1/small group roaming) it isn’t hard to utilize them. Stealth trap near a gate that’s about to broken down to prevent a zerg from stealthing….

Saying it lacks counterplay, but what you really mean is that you can’t be bothered to actively counter it. Or you’re just talking about small group/1v1 roaming in WvW still.

Lmao, because you and some others continue to make the same bad arguments. For example, every time you say PU stealth isn’t a factor in a an area of play, you think that’s a reason not to nerf PU when, in fact, it means those areas have no bearing on the conversation.

All you’re doing is pointing to the glaringly obvious fact that a problem that exists in one part of the game could be easily fixed without affecting areas of the game where it’s not a problem. In other words, you keep reinforcing my point without recognizing it.

You also keep referring to, “what the developers intended” as though (a) you have any idea what that is, and (b) it even matters. What matters is the current reality of the game, and that reality has PU stealth being unnecessarily disruptive in a mode of play that is relevant in more than 75% of wvw.

If PU doesn’t matter to zergs, and you think stealth traps are only intended for zergs, why would you bring them up? Because your arguments aren’t coherent.

Kusa.6438:

Lol there is counter play. I’ve been using it for years on Mes against theifs. Its called AOEs, Knockbacks, and pulls. Play a thief or a mesmer for a while and you’ll learn how people typically path while stealthing. Then its pretty easy to attack someone in stealth.

That is not counter play at all or anything new. How does guessing someone’s position countering stealth? It doesn’t. Even if your guess is right you only counter an attempt at stealth. Never stealth itself. This is what ppl mean when they say it has no counter play. Even revealed is not a counter play.

Beside, the only real time it’s easy to guess someone’s position in stealth in with shadow refuge. Otherwise unless you are a complete kitten it’s child play to avoid enough attacks from the ppl guessing where you are. Specially if you blink/shadow step immediately.

Choppy.4183:

apharma.3741:

Choppy, stop with this thieves get 3s of stealth and have less than mesmers BS. It shows you either have no grasp on stealth and the mechanic or you need to learn to thief.

Thieves can stack stealth to stay in stealth permanently and choose when to engage. They also have a short bow for extreme gap opening if the fight goes sour and can then stealth engage after. Many are training stealth on steal as well so that’s a teleport, damage, heal, stealth into backstabbing and heartseeker.

This is without mentioning you’re mainly talking about WvW and as that other person mentioned in another thread, use stealth traps if they’re really giving you a problem.

Now, how’s that pre patch mesmer build I linked for you working for you?

Lol, settle down apharma. Denis made a silly argument and I used thieves as a way to expose the ridiculousness of the argument. Stealth traps during a fight is another ridiculous thing to say.

The stealth trap argument is my litmus test to decide if someone is arguing in good faith or not on that topic. It is just so imbecile you can’t doubt the other side couldn’t care less about what you have to say.

Necrotize.2974:

People(myself included) have outlined a risks to PU in all game modes, you just choose to ignore them and spout some random cross-class comparisons. Just gonna recap them since I’m really getting tired of every other mesmer thread devolving into the same conversation.

In SPvP, stealth prevent point capture as well as point contesting, so PU is not the best choice for point to point rotating(which is what mesmer is great at). Additionally, it means you interact less with your team since the other GM trait options can be easily used to either protect an ally, buff an ally, or call target on someone and immobilize them in preparation for a coordinated burst. The tradeoff for PU is by losing that interaction with allies you gain more personal survivability as well as a way to safely reposition once you’re focused without wasting blink.

PvE doesn’t really matter as stealth skills are only used for skips anyway.

WvW. This is where all the problems come up because people keep dragging roaming into this. In Zerg v Zerg, PU probably isn’t the best option. Only a few of the boons will be useful and on top of that, AoEs will likely hit you anyway. Being in stealth for too long also means you probably are doing no damage at all since phantasms rarely stay alive for long. The other GM traits would offer more to you and your zerg.

Only reason I said stealth traps could work in the other thread is because when you’re actually playing the way game developers intended(I.E, not 1v1/small group roaming) it isn’t hard to utilize them. Stealth trap near a gate that’s about to broken down to prevent a zerg from stealthing. If it was meant for 1v1 or small group roaming in the slightest, it wouldn’t have 1200 range and a target cap of 20.

You keep saying it lacks counterplay, but what you really mean is that you can’t be bothered to actively counter it. Or you’re just talking about small group/1v1 roaming in WvW still.

The only game mode where you outlined risk is pvp. And even then it is more accurately a trade-off than a risk for the mesmer to be honest. That it is less useful or not in pve or zerg fight (and I will argue on this a lot) is irrelevant to the notion of risk you say you have outlined. The risk vs reward is not balanced at all.

I wish they’d take away blind on shatter, that and a slight nerf to PU condi, PU zerk is fine, no problem with it, but condi is just silly, harldy any skill required for it, but that applies to almost any condi build

denis.9487:

Thief with off hand dagger is the same troll like level in wvw. They abuse stealth off animals off you off grey creatures. Have you tried to pin one down? Should I start a thread about the unfair practices? i defend the point in wvw with my guards same as you would a Mesmer. I am using wvw since I have a funny feeling is your experience. Mesmers are using inspiration more in pvp because guess why. You can still stealth burst but inspiration gives you more sustain than pu. Pu is a troll build not arguing but plenty of troll builds. Just think your crusade is a bit much.

My response was silly. You choose to ignore this. Your whole argument over pu is silly.

Mesmer Stealth no PU, no reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 3s, 30s CD, 10% uptime.
Decoy: 3s, 40s CD, 7.5% uptime.
Mass Invis: 5s, 90s CD, 5.5% uptime

That is pretty kitten low. I don’t include veil or mimic as they’re specialized uses and generally not worth the opportunity cost.

Mesmer Stealth PU, no reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 6s, 30s CD, 20% uptime.
Decoy: 6s, 40s CD, 15% uptime.
Mass Invis: 10s, 90s CD, 11% uptime

Even using all of them to stack stealth you’re looking at 22s of stealth and waiting 8s before torch is off CD again with decoy you need to wait 18s. If you’re complaining about that what I say next will blow your mind.

Mesmer Stealth PU, reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 6s, between 13s and 24s CD, 25-46% uptime.
Decoy: 6s, 32s CD, 18.7% uptime.
Mass Invis: 10s, 72s CD, 13.8% uptime.

Well kitten, what’s happening here? By running the illusions line we get a slightly higher uptime on decoy and traiting mass invis is pretty nice (13.8% uptime isn’t exactly game breaking though) but hey, what’s this with the torch trait? Could it be that this trait is what’s causing the obscene amounts of stealth in WvW? Could it be that maybe PU isn’t as much of an issue as people thought?

Thief stealth:

No SA:
C&D: 3s, 6 ini cost (so 6s CD), 50% uptime.
BP+HS: 3s, 9 ini cost (9s), 33% uptime.
BP+BP: 6s, 40s CD, 15% uptime.
SR: 12s, 60s CD, 20% uptime.

It’s also worth pointing out a thief can HS through a smoke field multiple times to stack it (managed 9s myself) and so long as they have any sense and aren’t running auto target they shouldn’t hit anyone. By the time their stealth runs out they will have all or most of the initiative back.

I really don’t want to start on the SA line as you get +1s from a minor and it becomes a lot harder to compare due to the -25% damage minor, the 1 initiative every 3s in stealth trait and whether you run the reduced cool down on deception without even mentioning improvisation.

apharma.3741:

Mesmer Stealth no PU, no reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 3s, 30s CD, 10% uptime.
Decoy: 3s, 40s CD, 7.5% uptime.
Mass Invis: 5s, 90s CD, 5.5% uptime

That is pretty kitten low. I don’t include veil or mimic as they’re specialized uses and generally not worth the opportunity cost.

Mesmer Stealth PU, no reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 6s, 30s CD, 20% uptime.
Decoy: 6s, 40s CD, 15% uptime.
Mass Invis: 10s, 90s CD, 11% uptime

Even using all of them to stack stealth you’re looking at 22s of stealth and waiting 8s before torch is off CD again with decoy you need to wait 18s. If you’re complaining about that what I say next will blow your mind.

Mesmer Stealth PU, reduced cool downs:
Torch off hand: 6s, between 13s and 24s CD, 25-46% uptime.
Decoy: 6s, 32s CD, 18.7% uptime.
Mass Invis: 10s, 72s CD, 13.8% uptime.

Well kitten, what’s happening here? By running the illusions line we get a slightly higher uptime on decoy and traiting mass invis is pretty nice (13.8% uptime isn’t exactly game breaking though) but hey, what’s this with the torch trait? Could it be that this trait is what’s causing the obscene amounts of stealth in WvW? Could it be that maybe PU isn’t as much of an issue as people thought?

Thief stealth:

No SA:
C&D: 3s, 6 ini cost (so 6s CD), 50% uptime.
BP+HS: 3s, 9 ini cost (9s), 33% uptime.
BP+BP: 6s, 40s CD, 15% uptime.
SR: 12s, 60s CD, 20% uptime.

It’s also worth pointing out a thief can HS through a smoke field multiple times to stack it (managed 9s myself) and so long as they have any sense and aren’t running auto target they shouldn’t hit anyone. By the time their stealth runs out they will have all or most of the initiative back.

I really don’t want to start on the SA line as you get +1s from a minor and it becomes a lot harder to compare due to the -25% damage minor, the 1 initiative every 3s in stealth trait and whether you run the reduced cool down on deception without even mentioning improvisation.

1 question, are mesmers supposed to be a stealth class?

That is it right there. We have become used to thief stealth. Watching a thief cnd off grey creatures other people change direction abuse stealth it’s ok. No problem. Mesmer gets some stealth granted double what we had and it’s an issue? (Taking a gm trait)The issue is l2p, game had thief for 3yeArs it’s ok. Wait get used to it and it will b ok with Mesmer also.

Lol, I didn’t ignore it, it was just irrelevant to the point.

Here’s a whacky idea for you… why don’t you mount a case in defense of keeping the PU stealth buff where it is? With most mesmers apparently opting not to take the trait, and no mesmers calling for a stealth buff prepatch, what’s the reason for the dogged defense again?

DHawk.2687:

1 question, are mesmers supposed to be a stealth class?

Considering they have had 1 weapon and a few utility slots that grant stealth since day 1, yes.

That’s without mentioning that no-one worth balancing the game around should be getting confused by mesmer clones for longer than a second without some form of stealth to lose that giant red target.

We could ask the same of rangers, engineers and soon to be guardians with trapper runes as they have access to stealth in some way in various amounts. There was a nice post on reddit about stealth uptime a while back, sadly finding it will be like finding a needle in a very big haystack.

Choppy.4183:

Lol, I didn’t ignore it, it was just irrelevant to the point.

Here’s a whacky idea for you… why don’t you mount a case in defense of keeping the PU stealth buff where it is? With most mesmers apparently opting not to take the trait, and no mesmers calling for a stealth buff prepatch, what’s the reason for the dogged defense again?

How many times must we say this in how many threads?

You can’t assume to change something and ask people to defend the change citing people don’t use it as grounds to nerf it.

apharma.3741:

DHawk.2687:

1 question, are mesmers supposed to be a stealth class?

Considering they have had 1 weapon and a few utility slots that grant stealth since day 1, yes.

That’s without mentioning that no-one worth balancing the game around should be getting confused by mesmer clones for longer than a second without some form of stealth to lose that giant red target.

We could ask the same of rangers, engineers and soon to be guardians with trapper runes as they have access to stealth in some way in various amounts. There was a nice post on reddit about stealth uptime a while back, sadly finding it will be like finding a needle in a very big haystack.

but the difference is, that thief needs the stealth to maintain it’s dps, mesmer does not, ranger does not etc.
they stealth time mesmer had pre patch was fine, and noone asked for a buff
or am i mistaking? :/
what they did is make mesmer somewhat the new thief, just stronger

Thief stealth =/= mesmer stealth.

For one, a thief can’t stack stealth in a fight without painting a massive target over his head saying “I’m stealthing! Do something! You know I’m here”. As a mesmer, here are things I can do to counter thief stealth stacking:

1. GS 5 on BP or Refuge
2. Focus 4 on BP or Refuge
3. Stand in the circle and disrupt the stealth stack chain
4. Cast Chaos storm on it

Other classes can do even more. I mean…you know the thief is there! That red circle is a huge marker.

Next. A thief’s main burst from stealth comes from close to you – right behind you in fact. Now I’ve suffered with this just like any mesmer…I’ve always thought stealth was cheesy, but there is at least something you can do. If the thief doesn’t stack stealth, I know he has around 3 seconds to position himself behind me. I might not always succeed in preventing a BS…but I have a shot.

A mesmer’s stealth skills on the other hand are instant apart from Mass Invis (which they can start casting before their other stealths run out). Instant casts means no counterplay to prevent it – unlike a thief. Torch stealth is immediate. Decoy is immediate.

Next – a mesmer doesn’t have to be in melee range to initiate a decent burst. Completely unlike a thief for whom, burst = behind you.

So please stop pointing to thieves and saying “Oh, thieves can stack stealth”. Sure they can…at great personal risk. Mesmers can stack stealth without huge signs over their heads saying “Here I am!!”

I can’t believe I’m defending thieves here. I mean, I’ve QQ’d about thieves probably more than anyone else – right from the days when MUG could crit. Just check out this 2 year old post of mine about ridiculous thief damage on my mesmer: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Ridiculous-Steal-Backstab-17k-in-sPvP/first

That was long ago…when tournaments still required tickets to play in. Anyone remember those days?

Never ever thought a day would come when I’m defending them!

bhagwad.4281:

Thief stealth =/= mesmer stealth.

For one, a thief can’t stack stealth in a fight without painting a massive target over his head saying “I’m stealthing! Do something! You know I’m here”. As a mesmer, here are things I can do to counter thief stealth stacking:

1. GS 5 on BP or Refuge
2. Focus 4 on BP or Refuge
3. Stand in the circle and disrupt the stealth stack chain
4. Cast Chaos storm on it

Other classes can do even more. I mean…you know the thief is there! That red circle is a huge marker.

Next. A thief’s main burst from stealth comes from close to you – right behind you in fact. Now I’ve suffered with this just like any mesmer…I’ve always thought stealth was cheesy, but there is at least something you can do. If the thief doesn’t stack stealth, I know he has around 3 seconds to position himself behind me. I might not always succeed in preventing a BS…but I have a shot.

A mesmer’s stealth skills on the other hand are instant apart from Mass Invis (which they can start casting before their other stealths run out). Instant casts means no counterplay to prevent it – unlike a thief. Torch stealth is immediate. Decoy is immediate.

Next – a mesmer doesn’t have to be in melee range to initiate a decent burst. Completely unlike a thief for whom, burst = behind you.

So please stop pointing to thieves and saying “Oh, thieves can stack stealth”. Sure they can…at great personal risk. Mesmers can stack stealth without huge signs over their heads saying “Here I am!!”

I can’t believe I’m defending thieves here. I mean, I’ve QQ’d about thieves probably more than anyone else – right from the days when MUG could crit. Just check out this 2 year old post of mine about ridiculous thief damage on my mesmer: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Ridiculous-Steal-Backstab-17k-in-sPvP/first

Never ever thought a day would come when I’m defending them!

Thank you for doing so

bhagwad.4281:

Next – a mesmer doesn’t have to be in melee range to initiate a decent burst.

How much damage would you say a mesmer outside melee range would do in a burst?

DHawk.2687:

but the difference is, that thief needs the stealth to maintain it’s dps, mesmer does not, ranger does not etc.
they stealth time mesmer had pre patch was fine, and noone asked for a buff
or am i mistaking? :/
what they did is make mesmer somewhat the new thief, just stronger

The problem is clones were meant to be part of the defence of mesmers but clones without giving the mesmer stealth don’t confuse anyone. Added to that the removal of clone death traits and there’s really no punishment either for mowing down clones which are also the source of a mesmer burst.

My question to you is, where would a mesmer get survivability and how do they gtfo without stealth? They have blink and phase retreat which is nice in PvP where you can shortcut up a ledge etc. Outside of that they have a F4 distortion and that’s kinda it.

You can trait signets for distortion and I do in PvE (mainly for the signet heal to keep phantasms up) but generally signets are pretty poor. Midnight is alright but it’s essentially like eles signet of air, alright but you wouldn’t pick it.

If you pick sword offhand or use the scepter main hand they do have a block but currently they’re kinda clunky and unlike other blocks they only block 1 attack then leave you stuck in a counter animation for follow up burst.

So yes, mesmers do need stealth and while the increased duration of PU wasn’t asked for recently people weren’t happy with PU after the boons were watered down. The increase in duration allows you to really slip away from a bad situation especially in WvW.

Don’t take my word for it though play a build without PU in WvW and you’ll see how little it helps you escape. In PvP it’s neither here nor there but certainly helps your personal survivability at the cost of your team survivability by not going inspiration and illusion.

The first thing I usually think when I get 1shot by a Mesmer now is “kitten I forgot to dodge”…

apharma.3741:

DHawk.2687:

but the difference is, that thief needs the stealth to maintain it’s dps, mesmer does not, ranger does not etc.
they stealth time mesmer had pre patch was fine, and noone asked for a buff
or am i mistaking? :/
what they did is make mesmer somewhat the new thief, just stronger

The problem is clones were meant to be part of the defence of mesmers but clones without giving the mesmer stealth don’t confuse anyone. Added to that the removal of clone death traits and there’s really no punishment either for mowing down clones which are also the source of a mesmer burst.

My question to you is, where would a mesmer get survivability and how do they gtfo without stealth? They have blink and phase retreat which is nice in PvP where you can shortcut up a ledge etc. Outside of that they have a F4 distortion and that’s kinda it.

You can trait signets for distortion and I do in PvE (mainly for the signet heal to keep phantasms up) but generally signets are pretty poor. Midnight is alright but it’s essentially like eles signet of air, alright but you wouldn’t pick it.

If you pick sword offhand or use the scepter main hand they do have a block but currently they’re kinda clunky and unlike other blocks they only block 1 attack then leave you stuck in a counter animation for follow up burst.

So yes, mesmers do need stealth and while the increased duration of PU wasn’t asked for recently people weren’t happy with PU after the boons were watered down. The increase in duration allows you to really slip away from a bad situation especially in WvW.

Don’t take my word for it though play a build without PU in WvW and you’ll see how little it helps you escape. In PvP it’s neither here nor there but certainly helps your personal survivability at the cost of your team survivability by not going inspiration and illusion.

As i said before i don’t really mind the long stealth uptime when fighting a PU mesmer with zerker stats, that’s managable
and mesmers are able to get out of a fight without PU, the stealth was enough, at least in my opinion
the only PU build i really do hate is condi, condi is so strong post patch, add that to PU and at least for a thief it’s almost unkillable, mostly if i see a PU mesmer, no matter if he just entered wvw, if he’s at full hp, i won’t engage, it’s just not worth it

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Every second the mesmer is getting off cooldowns from stealth is a second your abilities are coming off cooldown too.
Statements like “stealth or blink away until I burn all my skill cd” suggests to me that you don’t understand the ebb and flow of it.

Mesmer cds are not short.
Stealthing and blinking costs utility skills.
Every time a mesmer creates distance with stealth or blink, they have burned a cooldown. They don’t magically get to make you burn yours, without burning theirs.

Really nice argument there buddy. Having more stealth is definitely nice, its much more forgiving than before the patch though, and that turns some people off.(Including me)

PU is not as ridiculous as people think, it brings us closer to thieves and that’s great since we share roles in PvP. Now we can actually keep up with them, despite PU being boring.

bhagwad.4281:

Thief stealth =/= mesmer stealth.

I agree but I was just showing a comparison of stealth uptime.

bhagwad.4281:

For one, a thief can’t stack stealth in a fight without painting a massive target over his head saying “I’m stealthing! Do something! You know I’m here”. As a mesmer, here are things I can do to counter thief stealth stacking:

1. GS 5 on BP or Refuge
2. Focus 4 on BP or Refuge
3. Stand in the circle and disrupt the stealth stack chain
4. Cast Chaos storm on it

Other classes can do even more. I mean…you know the thief is there! That red circle is a huge marker.

However nothing stops them getting further away, then stealthing up and re-engaging which is what happens with good thieves. I fought one the other day and while yes there is some counterplay by the time I get to the 1200 range they’re stealthing at they’re done and are setting up. You also brought yourself in range and made it easier to BS you.

Mesmers also want to be next to you to burst you, the same logic applies to them otherwise they will do a pitiful amount of damage. Additionally mesmer auto attack is half that of thieves.

bhagwad.4281:

A mesmer’s stealth skills on the other hand are instant apart from Mass Invis (which they can start casting before their other stealths run out). Instant casts means no counterplay to prevent it – unlike a thief. Torch stealth is immediate. Decoy is immediate.

Immediate but not without tells. Torch has big flames appearing and blasts after it’s done which can make you revealed if you’re sloppy. Mass invis has almost a 2s channel with a big white border expanding from it’s cast point. Decoy, fair play.

bhagwad.4281:

Next – a mesmer doesn’t have to be in melee range to initiate a decent burst. Completely unlike a thief for whom, burst = at the side orbehind you.

Yes they do and fixed it for you.

bhagwad.4281:

So please stop pointing to thieves and saying “Oh, thieves can stack stealth”. Sure they can…at great personal risk. Mesmers can stack stealth without huge signs over their heads saying “Here I am!!”

Great personal risk? I never knew waiting for initiative to regen was a risk and yes I do play thief, I would usually run it after being fed up spending a few hours with the terrible mesmer disengage being an easy focus. The ease of their disengage is fantastic.

You also forgot how blinding powder blinds people so they will generally need to remove that first otherwise whatever you do to counter a thief stealthing will fail.

That’s without pointing out you missed the spirit of my post. It was a comparison of stealth uptimes but mainly to highlight just how silly The Pledge trait is in how much stealth it gives.

Mesmer now sort of hints towards frost mage from WoW at the moment, high damage, but low health. Mesmers love the mind game with stealth, asking you to predict where they are. If you guess wrong you loose and get bursted, if you guess right it usually leads to a crushing defeat for the mesmer, luckily Anet added a dodge roll so if you are to half- kitten d to make an attempt at guessing the correct location just dodge – really useful mechanic which was added to the game. The lesson is count to five and dodge, if not count to 7 and dodge. Play the profession, understand it. I find it really easy to beat on my other toons because you understand the mind games and when to dodge.

Phantom Master.9582:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Every second the mesmer is getting off cooldowns from stealth is a second your abilities are coming off cooldown too.
Statements like “stealth or blink away until I burn all my skill cd” suggests to me that you don’t understand the ebb and flow of it.

Mesmer cds are not short.
Stealthing and blinking costs utility skills.
Every time a mesmer creates distance with stealth or blink, they have burned a cooldown. They don’t magically get to make you burn yours, without burning theirs.

Really nice argument there buddy. Having more stealth is definitely nice, its much more forgiving than before the patch though, and that turns some people off.(Including me)

PU is not as ridiculous as people think, it brings us closer to thieves and that’s great since we share roles in PvP. Now we can actually keep up with them, despite PU being boring.

tbh you don’t keep up, you surpass ^^

DHawk.2687:

As i said before i don’t really mind the long stealth uptime when fighting a PU mesmer with zerker stats, that’s managable
and mesmers are able to get out of a fight without PU, the stealth was enough, at least in my opinion
the only PU build i really do hate is condi, condi is so strong post patch, add that to PU and at least for a thief it’s almost unkillable, mostly if i see a PU mesmer, no matter if he just entered wvw, if he’s at full hp, i won’t engage, it’s just not worth it

Fair play on the PU condi but then they trait the torch which is massively over performing trait with PU and massively under performing without. Ideally I’d like to see that trait changed first then reassess PU as it is causing some huge variance in stealth for mesmers.

I created a thread about it but people seem to be looking but not commenting so it seems to be falling off front page. Perhaps you want to check it out.

As someone who played with and without PU pre nerf, then pre patch and now after, I can honestly say mesmers needed a stealth boost to disengage as I only ever got away with decoy+blink or if I was let go due to easier lootbags closer to the enemy. Anything less than 5s isn’t enough to put distance on a class that has poor swiftness.

A thief using shadow refuge can dodge in stealth. How often to you honestly push pull a thief in shadow refuge. Almost like that’s the measure of a good thief.

Choppy.4183:

Lol, I didn’t ignore it, it was just irrelevant to the point.

Here’s a whacky idea for you… why don’t you mount a case in defense of keeping the PU stealth buff where it is? With most mesmers apparently opting not to take the trait, and no mesmers calling for a stealth buff prepatch, what’s the reason for the dogged defense again?

I don’t need to mount a defense for a perfectly good defensive trait that is build defining, due to some peoples inability to adapt or insist on using dueling or solo roaming to make arguements.

jayson.6512:

I think you don’t get what i want to say when i post this? do you remember when a warrior Hambow healing signet is a thing that they can just stand and win even not outplaying the other player? What i want to say is that those kind of build should not exist because it makes the game boring. And same with this build.

His point was, I can probably make you an even more crazy video about my non-PU condi shatter setup.

The point is, montages are easy. You don’t see the 10x as many fights where the approach didn’t work. Ever seen one of the thief videos? They don’t show you the 100 missed ganks resulting in a death, only the 10 which worked out. :P

It’s basically coming down to “You need to defend the trait and claim why it shouldn’t be nerfed, but I don’t really need to support why it should be nerfed”. You’re assuming you’re right and that if something isn’t broken then it must be changed. Everytime you’re pressed on this subject you give some half answer that usually has roots in roaming and dueling tied in with some sarcastic or snide remark. Roaming and dueling are pretty much the fulcrum of all this complaining despite them being almost completely inconsequential to balance.

Normally I wouldn’t ask for someone to defend why a change shouldn’t be made, but some of you are effectively saying where the stealth buff is a problem doesn’t matter, and anywhere that does matter the stealth bonus is a non-factor.

Neither of those is an argument to keep the buff. The closest you get to it is the first part, and that amounts to “it’s not worth looking at” not “the buff should stay as is”.

So you’re either digging in over something you think doesn’t matter or you think the buff does matter and you haven’t been straight about why it should be left alone.

If there’s no value to the buff, then you should have no objections to reducing it in the face of people pointing out where it is a problem.

Choppy.4183:

Normally I wouldn’t ask for someone to defend why a change shouldn’t be made, but some of you are effectively saying where the stealth buff is a problem doesn’t matter, and anywhere that does matter the stealth bonus is a non-factor.

Neither of those is an argument to keep the buff. The closest you get to it is the first part, and that amounts to “it’s not worth looking at” not “the buff should stay as is”.

So you’re either digging in over something you think doesn’t matter or you think the buff does matter and you haven’t been straight about why it should be left alone.

If there’s no value to the buff, then you should have no objections to reducing it in the face of people pointing out where it is a problem.

The last sentence speaks volumes. Because some people have an issue it needs to be nerfed? L2p l2 count higher than 5. Do not roam alone and bring a friend because after all this is guild wars not solo roam wars.

This trait is absolutely ridiculous.

It’s incredible how Anet succeeded to buff one trait already op

The result of this it’s not only Phantasmal condi mesmer are super brainless but now shatter power version can use this trait and stay 1 year in stealth, ready to burst people for 15k

Worst trait ever.

Remove it from the planet pls, better game for everyone.

denis.9487:

Choppy.4183:

Normally I wouldn’t ask for someone to defend why a change shouldn’t be made, but some of you are effectively saying where the stealth buff is a problem doesn’t matter, and anywhere that does matter the stealth bonus is a non-factor.

Neither of those is an argument to keep the buff. The closest you get to it is the first part, and that amounts to “it’s not worth looking at” not “the buff should stay as is”.

So you’re either digging in over something you think doesn’t matter or you think the buff does matter and you haven’t been straight about why it should be left alone.

If there’s no value to the buff, then you should have no objections to reducing it in the face of people pointing out where it is a problem.

The last sentence speaks volumes. Because some people have an issue it needs to be nerfed? L2p l2 count higher than 5. Do not roam alone and bring a friend because after all this is guild wars not solo roam wars.

This is ridiculous. Just because this is a team game doesn’t mean you need to have friends to play with. You can solo q just fine with 4 strangers as a team. That doesn’t make them your friends.

Phil.8901:

This trait is absolutely ridiculous.

It’s incredible how Anet succeeded to buff one trait already op

The result of this it’s not only Phantasmal condi mesmer are super brainless but now shatter power version can use this trait and stay 1 year in stealth, ready to burst people for 15k

Worst trait ever.

Remove it from the planet pls, better game for everyone.

Go ahead and build yourself a “phantasmal condi mesmer,” take it into pvp and tell me how well you do.
I’ll wait.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Phil.8901:

This trait is absolutely ridiculous.

It’s incredible how Anet succeeded to buff one trait already op

The result of this it’s not only Phantasmal condi mesmer are super brainless but now shatter power version can use this trait and stay 1 year in stealth, ready to burst people for 15k

Worst trait ever.

Remove it from the planet pls, better game for everyone.

Go ahead and build yourself a “phantasmal condi mesmer,” take it into pvp and tell me how well you do.
I’ll wait.

It’s no joke, I swear the other day a Phantasmal Mage almost grazed me. The gravity of the situation then dawned on me and I thanked the gods that I didn’t have to endure that 1 stack of burning.

Serious note though, no way in hell you’re dying to a Phantasm condi build. The only phantasm that is good for applying condis is iDuelist, and the pistol trait is currently bugged or is bugging out Sharper Images because they don’t stack nearly as many bleeds as they should when the Duelist trait is taken.

Claims like the one above make it kinda hard to take a lot of those calling for nerfs seriously.

denis.9487:

The last sentence speaks volumes. Because some people have an issue it needs to be nerfed? L2p l2 count higher than 5. Do not roam alone and bring a friend because after all this is guild wars not solo roam wars.

See how you dodged again? You can’t identify any value that you’ll admit to, and your best shot at suggesting counterplay shows you don’t even understand how stealth play works.

bhagwad.4281:

denis.9487:

Choppy.4183:

Normally I wouldn’t ask for someone to defend why a change shouldn’t be made, but some of you are effectively saying where the stealth buff is a problem doesn’t matter, and anywhere that does matter the stealth bonus is a non-factor.

Neither of those is an argument to keep the buff. The closest you get to it is the first part, and that amounts to “it’s not worth looking at” not “the buff should stay as is”.

So you’re either digging in over something you think doesn’t matter or you think the buff does matter and you haven’t been straight about why it should be left alone.

If there’s no value to the buff, then you should have no objections to reducing it in the face of people pointing out where it is a problem.

The last sentence speaks volumes. Because some people have an issue it needs to be nerfed? L2p l2 count higher than 5. Do not roam alone and bring a friend because after all this is guild wars not solo roam wars.

This is ridiculous. Just because this is a team game doesn’t mean you need to have friends to play with. You can solo q just fine with 4 strangers as a team. That doesn’t make them your friends.

Running pu in pvp is fine for hot join hero stuff. Basically a thief and you plus 1 fights. In pvp stealth is kept in check with the game mode. My reference is to choppy experience in wvw when he traited pu his roaming party died he escaped so this lead him to believe pu is in need of a nerf. The trait is defensive with drawbacks by choosing it and it worked when he used it.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Phil.8901:

This trait is absolutely ridiculous.

It’s incredible how Anet succeeded to buff one trait already op

The result of this it’s not only Phantasmal condi mesmer are super brainless but now shatter power version can use this trait and stay 1 year in stealth, ready to burst people for 15k

Worst trait ever.

Remove it from the planet pls, better game for everyone.

Go ahead and build yourself a “phantasmal condi mesmer,” take it into pvp and tell me how well you do.
I’ll wait.

No need

I already taken the marauder version s/t + gs so i can stay 1 year in stealth and onesthot people in easy way.

If i fail? Np I’ve 2 invulnerability, interrupt, blind, dodge and other stealth

And If the fight is going bad?

Dude, I’ve portal,go away and retry, easy

What a skill.

Choppy.4183:

denis.9487:

The last sentence speaks volumes. Because some people have an issue it needs to be nerfed? L2p l2 count higher than 5. Do not roam alone and bring a friend because after all this is guild wars not solo roam wars.

See how you dodged again? You can’t identify any value that you’ll admit to, and your best shot at suggesting counterplay shows you don’t even understand how stealth play works.

Dodged what? The trait works. You yourself used it and it let you survive while your own party died and that leads to a nerf?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Phil.8901:

This trait is absolutely ridiculous.

It’s incredible how Anet succeeded to buff one trait already op

The result of this it’s not only Phantasmal condi mesmer are super brainless but now shatter power version can use this trait and stay 1 year in stealth, ready to burst people for 15k

Worst trait ever.

Remove it from the planet pls, better game for everyone.

Go ahead and build yourself a “phantasmal condi mesmer,” take it into pvp and tell me how well you do.
I’ll wait.

Condi doesn’t work in tpvp anymore , maybe in unranked low MMR but it ends there. In tourneys condi is useless, for ANY BUILD/CLASS not just mesmer lol , that doesn’t mean condi phantasm is useless in general for wvw or 1on1s just in team scenarios there’s so much condi cleanse those condis get eliminated quickly and then you get focused.

Simply put, in pvp condi sucks for every class, burst damage is king at the moment.

denis.9487:

Dodged what? The trait works. You yourself used it and it let you survive while your own party died and that leads to a nerf?

As has been explained to you repeatedly, that’s not it’s only use, but you remain fixated on this bit to the exclusion of others. Do you know what a strawman argument is?

But, sure, let’s just look at that one thing for now. Do you think it’s legitimate for a player to consistently survive party wipes without breaking a sweat? How about a party of PU mesmers? What condition would lead then to wipe at all? You’ve referred to warriors with their “OP sustain while roaming” and insane mobility… do you even believe they had this ability before the patch crimped their mobility? Is it that you always wished you could do on your mesmer what mesmers complain about thieves?

And is that the only value, in your opinion? Mesmers need a way to survive party wipes?

People dodging hard questions when confronted by saying other people are dodging the questions. I bet this thread will be just as constructive as all the others and totally not devolve in mindless repetition and over-exaggerations. Definitely not. Honestly wish Anet would just merge all of these into one super thread cause I’m getting real tired of seeing a new 2-3 page thread every day that’s pretty much just repeating exactly what was said in PvP forums or restating everything from a thread that died down 2 days ago.

Choppy.4183:

denis.9487:

Dodged what? The trait works. You yourself used it and it let you survive while your own party died and that leads to a nerf?

As has been explained to you repeatedly, that’s not it’s only use, but you remain fixated on this bit to the exclusion of others. Do you know what a strawman argument is?

But, sure, let’s just look at that one thing. Do you think it’s legitimate for a player to consistently survive party wipes without breaking a sweat? How about a party of PU mesmers? What condition would lead then to wipe at all?

And is that the value, in your opinion? Mesmers need a way to survive party wipes?

Oh look, another reference to WvW small group roaming. Totally didn’t see that coming…

Choppy.4183:

denis.9487:

Dodged what? The trait works. You yourself used it and it let you survive while your own party died and that leads to a nerf?

As has been explained to you repeatedly, that’s not it’s only use, but you remain fixated on this bit to the exclusion of others. Do you know what a strawman argument is?

But, sure, let’s just look at that one thing. Do you think it’s legitimate for a player to consistently survive party wipes without breaking a sweat? How about a party of PU mesmers? What condition would lead then to wipe at all?

And is that the value, in your opinion? Mesmers need a way to survive party wipes?

At the expense of being able to actually maybe provide more damage more support more cc for that then yes.

You take the trait for its many uses. But being able to hide escape is the dominant reason. Self preservation. By doing so you give up something else. It comes with a cost. The cost is the choice do you add more cc damage support to your party or do you forgo and concentrate on being selfish.

Phil.8901:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Phil.8901:

This trait is absolutely ridiculous.

It’s incredible how Anet succeeded to buff one trait already op

The result of this it’s not only Phantasmal condi mesmer are super brainless but now shatter power version can use this trait and stay 1 year in stealth, ready to burst people for 15k

Worst trait ever.

Remove it from the planet pls, better game for everyone.

Go ahead and build yourself a “phantasmal condi mesmer,” take it into pvp and tell me how well you do.
I’ll wait.

No need

I already taken the marauder version s/t + gs so i can stay 1 year in stealth and onesthot people in easy way.

If i fail? Np I’ve 2 invulnerability, interrupt, blind, dodge and other stealth

And If the fight is going bad?

Dude, I’ve portal,go away and retry, easy

What a skill.

You made a claim that phantasmal condi mesmer builds are “super brainless” in the context of OP builds.

I called you on it.

You pretended that doesn’t matter.

So why bring up the condi mesmer if there’s “no need” to even think about it?

Answer: because you don’t have much credibility, as it seems you don’t even care enough to do your homework. My recommendation to anyone who reads what you have to say is to “be skeptical, this poster has a history of making stupid claims without backing them up.”

Choppy, while we’re on the subject of dodging questions:

If you had a party, they generally gave you what you needed, especially thieves (stealth) warriors (swiftness) and eles (condi cleanses) which were all abundant whatever you did. Solo it was a different story.

Don’t take my word for it, go solo roaming with this build and see for yourself. I left out trait options as they either weren’t what people usually ran or they ran traits that were made baseline. Even just jump into WvW with your group and see.

Feel free to switch to S/T as well and see how it works for you.

Edit, lol forgot about golem rush, try the best you can this week but definitely try next week when things get back to normal.

You asked why it shouldn’t be nerfed, I said because 3s of stealth isn’t enough to get away with in WvW as you’re auto dismissing PvP elements. You said you thought otherwise and that mesmers were not easy kills pre patch.

I challenge you to run without PU, the build above which should give you the pre patch experience. Antitoxin runes can double for hoelbrak. Only difference is nike warriors got their obscene movement cut down but they should still outpace you.

Edit: On the subject of people surviving party wipes, thieves often do in PvP as well as other classes with high mobility like warriors, engineers and elementalists. In WvW Warriors, rangers, engineers, thieves, elementalists and now PU mesmers survive due to great disengage. What’s your point?

This is again without anyone paying attention to that torch trait I brought up earlier and how it can get as low as a 13s CD in stealth. Before you blame PU, the torch trait is simply bad, it’s bad on it’s own and it is completely bouncing off the walls strong for camping stealth with PU and other sources of stealth exclusive to the torch.