Guild Wars 2

Sup guys.

Wanted to make a thread that hopefully will help our maybe/potential forum specialist and allow us to really get a clear picture as to how the Mesmer community feels about the class as it stands currently and in the future. If you wouldn’t mind answering some questions…

• What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM? Please don’t use general terms like “damage” without elaborating for what game mode and why you feel this way.

From a PvP perspective, I feel Mesmer is currently lacking variety. We being pidgeonholed into only one or two viable builds mostly because so many of our traits just kind of suck. Most traitlines have about 4 out of 13 viable traits.

• What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

I can’t really say as I only really play one mode. =P

• Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

This may take some time. Will supply answers when I can.

• Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

I can’t think of anything that would make me stop playing Mesmer, but I’d return to PvE if the encounters were more than DPS stack-fests. I’m hoping the new defiant change helps make control-based specs more viable, but the fact that running a support build is actually counterproductive rather than an alternate option is extremely off-putting to me.

• What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”

I remain foolishly optimistic, but mostly because I’m not to worried about being let down. I have fun with the class in it’s current state and that’s enough for a simpleton like me. Nonetheless, the randomness of the nerfs we recieve (Chaos Storm? Really tho!?) and the complete lack of transparency makes it hard to trust in the devs. I really wish that there would be more balance previews besides the one big once-a-year patches where we could actually submit our input on upcoming changes.

• What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

A rework to our current lockdown traits – Furious Interruption, Disruptors Sustain, Power Block, and Wastrels Punishment – to make them actually lucrative.

1- From a PvE perspective, what I miss the most is AoE damage. Our AoE damage, our damage in general actually, is heavy dependant on our phantasms and they die so easily in some encounters… it’s sad.

2- For me, mesmers are best in PvP and worst in WvW (zergs).

3- There are many, many things, but one that makes me really mad is the iLeap dependence of a clone, I’d change that if I could (you still summon the clone but even if it dies we can “swap”).

4- Nothing would ever make me stop playing mesmer, not even a shield.

5- I’m a faithless person in general, I don’t expect anything to happen be it good or bad, but maybe, just maybe, our specialization may change my mind.

6- Phantasms not dying so easily, at least in PvE they should have some kind of protection from AoEs, the more Wyvern fight videos I watch the more anger I feel.

Sorry for any bad english, the struggle is real.

What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?

Everything apart from burst.

In PvP the only viable build is shatter which is countered so hard by theives its pointless. People more into PvP have written very good posts about Mesmer vs Thief in the roamer role. We need more build diversity. Lockdown builds are nearly there and could be good with some tweaking (and maybe changes to the overall meta) but I don’t think we need a massive focus on it or a specialization devoted to it.

Open World PvE seems to be the main focus of new content but the Mesmers design pretty much clashes with every aspect of it. No speed buffs, leaps, charges or anything to help us get around the map quickly (and newer maps seem to be cutting down on waypoints making running longer distances occur more often). Takes time to ramp up our damage and when we do either the mob dies (sometimes before we do enough damage to get credit), or our illusions get wiped out by random aoe/cleave. They are starting to provide more complicated/interesting boss fights and while these are step in the right direction they all seemed to be designed to purposefully negate Mesmer mechanics with lots of AoE, small window of attacks, target changes, bosses ‘leaving’ the area causing illusions to die, etc, LS2 spoilers lair was particularly bad in this and I was almost pulling my hair out with boredom due to how tedious it was. For both this mode in high attrition areas/situations that you can find yourself in but mostly for PvP/WvW we could do with both more sustain and a way like other classes to build more sturdier without giving up so much damage.

WvW also share many of the same problems with Open World, lack of speed, illusions die straight away in a zerg. We also have no role outside of Golem taxi or Veil Bot.

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

Most: Dungeons where the bosses have high damage projectile attacks followed by PvP roamer
Least: Open World

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

Too many. Just off the top of my head, unnerf Blurred frenzy/distortion, remove ICD for Triumphant Distortion, increases to auto attack damage pretty much across the board but definitely Sword and Greatsword. Blast on GS skill 3. Give protection back to Staff 4. Will come back later to this.

Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

Quit frankly if some big changes don’t come to Mesmer with the expansion and the specialization isn’t looking good I’m leaving the game.

What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust?

Not just the fact that Mesmers have been on the receiving end of almost non stop nerfs but the way that Mesmer balance seems to be decided by going to the PvP forums and looking at what people are whining about.

Then the way nerfs are handled e.g.‘Illusionists Celerity is too good for the point investment, lets increase all the CDs of phantasm skills, later lets make Illusionists Celerity a bigger point investment without reverting the CDs’ or then when they nerfed glamour bomb builds they literally nerfed every single trait and the damage of confusion.

Disruptor’s Sustainment.

When they made Shattered Strength give 3 might per illusion and then almost immediately went to the PvP forums grovelling for forgiveness for buffing Mesmers and promising to nerf it soon. Meanwhile how long has might stacking Cele builds been meta for now?

Finally after 3 years of people asking for Mainhand pistol ,with lots of arguments pointing out how both having a limited number of main hands and how the scepter and Sword don’t really work together is limiting our diversity we get yet another off hand weapon. This finally made me realize that Anet treats Mesmers as a joke and they don’t pay attention to the people playing it.

I have no trust anymore. Earn it back? Major reworks to Mesmer trait lines that should have been done back in beta, attention to our weapons and skills, make us able to take part in Open world content and Chronomancer turns out good.

What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

Can use Spear on land, trident would be nice too.

Levetty.1279:

We need more build diversity. Lockdown builds are nearly there and could be good with some tweaking (and maybe changes to the overall meta) but I don’t think we need a massive focus on it or a specialization devoted to it.

Agreed. The way that lockdown stuff is kinda “spread around” right now is actually pretty good(*), because it gives you opportunities to mix control into different builds. Trying to put all the lockdown stuff into its own little bucket away from everything else would be a surefire formula for do-nothing builds (that will eventually get nerfed into the ground, most likely).

(* – Or would be, if Power Block wasn’t messed up.)

Only viable build is shatter? Or is it the only build you can play?

my list of want is small
1 Make mantra of distraction cooldown 10 secs and recharge cast time 1/2 second
2. Make deceptive evasion an adept trait

StickerHappy.8052:

Only viable build is shatter? Or is it the only build you can play?

This response is why we cannot have nice things. Shatter is viable followed by lockdown that when it works it is awesome yet no cast bars and stability destroys this. Roaming pu yet if we say pu build everyone curls their nose as if this trait is for poor players and has no place in gw2. Mantra suffers from obvious issues and a signet build is just that the passives are awful and the active is useful for certain game modes making using this extremely niche.

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

Only viable build is shatter? Or is it the only build you can play?

This response is why we cannot have nice things. Shatter is viable followed by lockdown that when it works it is awesome yet no cast bars and stability destroys this. Roaming pu yet if we say pu build everyone curls their nose as if this trait is for poor players and has no place in gw2. Mantra suffers from obvious issues and a signet build is just that the passives are awful and the active is useful for certain game modes making using this extremely niche.

What is wrong with my response? That Levetty guy is the one saying Shatter is the only viable pvp build.

Which I WHOLE HEARTEDLY DISAGREE WITH

Also about your lockdown comment, Stability? A Common CI Spec has Domination VII Traited. I don’t see whats the problem?

No Cast bars? Almost all heals have an obvious animation, most of the skills here in gw2 are also easy to interrupt with practice.

the problem is we as a community need to stop cutting each other throats and band together. We only have a very limited amount of builds. Then people start saying l2p. Your response had it all. Doubting the only viable build then stating l2p.

Looks at world tournament

Yeah I stand by what I said.

Levetty.1279:

Looks at world tournament

Yeah I stand by what I said.

But the real question is. Do you play Top Tier pvp?
IF NOT, Who are you to say that shatter is the only viable build in PvP?

If you base it just on WTS, how much of the actual pvp community plays there?

A lot of builds is viable on casual pvp not even factoring the skill factor.

I am not bashing other mesmers, but this kind of mentality is whack.

Yes we mesmers need some tweaking or what not, but people here in the mesmer forums are acting like its the end of the world.

denis.9487:

the problem is we as a community need to stop cutting each other throats and band together. We only have a very limited amount of builds. Then people start saying l2p. Your response had it all. Doubting the only viable build then stating l2p.

Band together and act like emos?

No thanks.

I will repeat what I said, yes there are mesmer issues that need to be tweaked or addressed BUT this is the same goes for other classes as well.

I can play other builds well enough to stop whining.

Why play something not to win?? Why play a class that can not help your team. So many flawed points. We play to win no matter what level of play, so playing something sub par is emo.

What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?
As a Flexible class it is still OK. Maybe we need more role?

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?
WvW Solo or Duo = OK.
WvW 3-5 = Better/ Best. All Mesmer set up kill and Utility is become better to this size and so many role u can choose like Support(CI Interupt), Assasin (IP Shatter), Long Range Carry(Greatsword based)
WvW Zerging = Boring coz only veil and watching the zerg fighting. Well u can join the pick squad to “Assasinate” the backline but it depends on ur server zerg size. Larger size means harder to assasinate

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?
Make more Domination Trait Line more “Domination”?

Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?
As long Mesmer is still a flexible class and all round i am still fine with it. Being all around and flexible normally means don’t have any strong point but u won’t become sitting duck coz no weakness also? Example: Ranger and Rifle WA damage is higher than GS Mes but they can be blocked by Wall of Reflection resulting they will sitting duck.

What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”
If i have no faith well i prolly leave the game and yell “This Game Developer have bad Class mechanic” TBH yeah i a little kitten. Lately i missed my Old Decoy. The Ignore Revealed version(Coz sick ’em). Or maybe the Sword Swap #3 without clone. So good to juke. But oh well at least i am adapt. I still have faith to answer this Question.

What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?
- Stronger Compunding Power(Special Trait) = 4%/ clone or 5%/ clone lel
- Make interupt more rewarding( More halting strike damage, Better Furious interuption)
Sorry for this part. I dunno how to say. Hahahaha…. Maybe u can say i have no wish?

denis.9487:

Why play something not to win?? Why play a class that can not help your team. So many flawed points. We play to win no matter what level of play, so playing something sub par is emo.

Subpar? Maybe you are playing subpar quality.

A lot of builds in Casual PvP can be played to win:

CI Lockdown (No team help? Has interrupts for resses and stomps, heals, AoE Dazes, Boonstrip)
Skcamow’s UW Build (No team help? Reflects, AoE Blinds, Phant Regen, Boon Strip)
Chaos’ Chaos Maestro (No Team help? Boon Share, Lockdown/ Interrupts)
Signet Mesmer Build (Do not get started with me saying this build sucks, See Countless)
Ross’ PhantAss Kicker (Burst, Interrupts)
Slim Chance’s MantraRupt (High COndi Removal, Interrupts, He Runs TW too, I’m guessing its for team play too? /duh)
MailMail’s Bunker Build (Can hold a point equally if not better than a guardian)

What more do you want?

Who has flawed points now?

StickerHappy.8052:

Only viable build is shatter? Or is it the only build you can play?

Silly Stickers. The Esports Gods decreed it, thus it is so. Followers must proclaim the word of their Lords or be deemed heretical, and blasphemous. Thus being cast out.

All of my responses are from a pvp/wvw perspective.

What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?
- distinct variety in trait selection, utility skill choices (blink and decoy… that leaves one space in most cases because all other utilities are inferior) and weapon use, which produce coherent individual builds all of which are on equal (but not identical) footing.

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most?
WvW roaming, for obvious reasons – but even then it is build dependant.

Least?
I can’t talk about PvE, so I’ll say PvP conquest.

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?
Blurred Frenzy – revert cooldown to 10s base, reduce number of hits and increase overall damage
Blinding Befuddlement – remove ICD
Mimic – restore original skill
Power Block – fix/adjust it for thieves
Utility Phantasms – reduce cast times further
Glamour trait placement – tidy up/consolidate
Many Grandmaster traits are just not good enough when compared to other traits.

Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer?
Gutting mainhand sword any further. I dunno – I won’t stop playing mesmer unless it is deleted from the game.

If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?
Fixing mesmer.

What has damaged your faith in the devs?
The nerfs/balance changes over the last two and a half years, mostly down to whining because mesmer is difficult for new/inexperienced players to fight against (and comparatively easy for experienced players to fight against). I don’t think any other class has that weird scaling issue.

Is there any faith remaining?
Some, due to the expansion. I will continue to play in the meantime.

What would have to happen to earn back your trust?
Reverting some ridiculous changes, giving us some new mainhand weapons, fixing/sorting out the mess of traits in both effects and placement in the trees.

Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?
A new class mechanic that doesn’t focus on shattering illusions.

you are missing my point. We need help in all game modes. Naming some builds and saying l2p is not constructive. Sadly like all Mesmer players l2p means roll another class.

denis.9487:

you are missing my point. We need help in all game modes. Naming some builds and saying l2p is not constructive. Sadly like all Mesmer players l2p means roll another class.

You are the one missing the point,

You are the one one asking why not play something to win?

• I gave you a list of builds that can be played to win.

You said that why play a class that does not help your team.

• I gave you builds that help your team and can be played to win.

You cannot demand someone to give constructive talks when first of all you are running with a narrow minded approach

I can therefore conclude that this a L2P issue.

Hello,

I’m not a Mesmer master, but it is my favorite class to play and I enjoy it very much. I slide back and forth between CI and PU builds, but have been running a self-made bunker build for a bit too.

• What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM? Please don’t use general terms like “damage” without elaborating for what game mode and why you feel this way.

I feel as though the skills we have don’t often provide a visual or tangible reward for our actions. I know that shatter builds do great burst, and we have some cool boon rips etc, but it doesn’t always feel like we’re actually DOING anything. We don’t have the thud of a hammer hitting someone, or the explosion of a bomb going off. I think we lack feedback (both positive and negative) from our actions on the battlefield.

• What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

I think we’re best at PvP and WvW. I get along just fine in dungeons, but I feel like I’m contributing more in PvP. WvW is tough because illusions die so quickly and it’s hard to make an impact on a huge group of people with illusions only targeting 1 person.

• Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

Honestly I don’t think many minor adjustments would work. Not that I want to remove utility skills, but the ones we have seem like they are made for certain situations only. In PvP I rotate through maybe 4 or 5 depending on whether I’m against rangers or not, and in WvW I pretty much have veil, mass invis, and portal/IoL up all the time. It’s kind of… boring

• Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

If it got to the point where it was clear I cannot survive without another class in PvP. Being able to win a skill based 1v1 with any profession is important regardless of what you play. Also if I felt like I was useless everywhere.

• What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”

I haven’t followed the dev stuff very closely. I know we’re getting some changes in HoT but like everyone else no idea what. I’d really like the class to change enough to live up to it’s description of screwing with people’s minds.

• What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

More build variety of course, but I’d like to see our illusions be altered so you can have as many out as you can get at a time, but you are only allowed to blast 3 of them at once. So if you use all your GS and staff abilities, you have 4 illusions out, and you hit F1, the first 3 you summoned responded to the command, and the last one just kept on doing his thing. While I can maybe see a problem with some troll build pumping out 10+ illusions at once, you’d still only get 3 off at a time, and people would be killing them anyway. It sounds kind of OP, but I think it could work out and make our illusions be a little more important to our enemies, instead of just dodging at the right time every 10 seconds when we shatter.

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

you are missing my point. We need help in all game modes. Naming some builds and saying l2p is not constructive. Sadly like all Mesmer players l2p means roll another class.

You are the one missing the point,

You are the one one asking why not play something to win?

• I gave you a list of builds that can be played to win.

You said that why play a class that does not help your team.

• I gave you builds that help your team and can be played to win.

You cannot demand someone to give constructive talks when first of all you are running with a narrow minded approach

I can therefore conclude that this a L2P issue.

My narrow minded approach is one that says I want more than ok for conquest, more than veil golem rush, more for pve. Sure Mesmer is fun wouldn’t change why I play it but doesn’t change the problems. By saying l2p makes it seem like Mesmer is in a good place.
I am not a God of conquest but I can see problems when they exist.

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

you are missing my point. We need help in all game modes. Naming some builds and saying l2p is not constructive. Sadly like all Mesmer players l2p means roll another class.

You are the one missing the point,

You are the one one asking why not play something to win?

• I gave you a list of builds that can be played to win.

You said that why play a class that does not help your team.

• I gave you builds that help your team and can be played to win.

You cannot demand someone to give constructive talks when first of all you are running with a narrow minded approach

I can therefore conclude that this a L2P issue.

My narrow minded approach is one that says I want more than ok for conquest, more than veil golem rush, more for pve. Sure Mesmer is fun wouldn’t change why I play it but doesn’t change the problems. By saying l2p makes it seem like Mesmer is in a good place.
I am not a God of conquest but I can see problems when they exist.

I’m not saying its in the “best” place. and you are forgetting the fact that other classes have it worse. See Rangers, Necros.

Yes there stuff to fix/tweak, I am not denying that fact.

The real problem is how other mesmers act, like whining, acting like mesmer is really unplayable by saying there is only one viable build.

Come on, Have some pride in your class just for once.

What I feel happened is that ANet lost its original vision of the Mesmer shortly after release and they’re just going with the flow now.

I want a rework but that will never happen. Or maybe I’m just the only one that thinks shatters as a mechanic are completely opposed to a class that relies on deception and manipulation.

Nobody cares anyway, we’ll get our offhand shield and we’ll love it!

I have always been and will forever be a mesmer player but I see no future in the class. We’re a gimmick and that won’t change.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?

I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?

I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.

We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG

How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?

Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.

So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?

Ramiel.4931:

What I feel happened is that ANet lost its original vision of the Mesmer shortly after release and they’re just going with the flow now.

I want a rework but that will never happen. Or maybe I’m just the only one that thinks shatters as a mechanic are completely opposed to a class that relies on deception and manipulation.

Nobody cares anyway, we’ll get our offhand shield and we’ll love it!

I have always been and will forever be a mesmer player but I see no future in the class. We’re a gimmick and that won’t change.

See? This is what I’m talking about here. Too much pessimism for this class, coming from people who play mesmer too.

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?

I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?

I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.

We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG

How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?

Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.

So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?

Well as a casual how about not having our main damage get sneezed on and die. How about more than golem rushing and veil. How about not having our clone generation tied to a master tier forcing us into a select build limiting our potential.
I want more traits skills that take us away from a dueling class. More aoe, let us step out from the roaming dps role.

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?

I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?

I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.

We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG

How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?

Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.

So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?

Well as a casual how about not having our main damage get sneezed on and die. How about more than golem rushing and veil. How about not having our clone generation tied to a master tier forcing us into a select build limiting our potential.
I want more traits skills that take us away from a dueling class. More aoe, let us step out from the roaming dps role.

Have you ever tried making a build without DE?

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?

I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?

I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.

We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG

How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?

Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.

So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?

And you’re right as far as us as players.

But from a balancing perspective, as far as PvP is concerned, you start at the top level and work your way down. A dev can’t assume “Ah well.. There were no Mesmers besides 1 in the WTS but that’s cool. Plenty of casual Mesmer out there having fun!” and they shouldn’t. They should be examining why the class is underperforming and making strides to rectify that.

Also, they need to ask WHY do so many Mesmer have such a dour opinion of their class? Do engineer feel the same? Is this a universal thing? If not, then it’s not something to just discredit. It has to be considered. Especially if we’re all so split on our opinions of the class as it stands.

As a player, I’m happy with Mesmer as-is because at the level I play at, the mode I play in, and the frequency that I play I don’t have many complaints. If supcutie, who absolutely LOVES Mesmer and will play it even feeling that he’s gimping his team is saying that he can’t play Mesmer in a tournament with a clear conscience because everything Thief does is better, that is saying something about the current state of balance.

Top tier players work on different comps, practice, study, and pretty much have much more experience with the class in different scenarios than we do. Their opinions matter, and right now their opinions are matching the general consensus: Mesmer is in a bad place.

Is there some overdramatics? Of course but those of us who feel Mesmer isn’t too bad right now are actually in the minority, and ALL of us are looking from a limited perspective of our own opinion. Thats why we can’t consider anyone elses’ opinion as wrong or right when we truly don’t know what they’re experiencing on Mesmer.

I’m fine with Mesmer being a more difficult class to master, I’m fine with being slightly underpowered relative to other classes, but having no role that can’t be done better on another class? That I can’t let fly.

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?

I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?

I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.

We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG

How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?

Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.

So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?

Well as a casual how about not having our main damage get sneezed on and die. How about more than golem rushing and veil. How about not having our clone generation tied to a master tier forcing us into a select build limiting our potential.
I want more traits skills that take us away from a dueling class. More aoe, let us step out from the roaming dps role.

Have you ever tried making a build without DE?

This is sad. I have given you examples and you ask if I have made a build without de?? Depending on game mode sure and yes. You are very hostile and seem to be under the impression it is a l2p along with level of play issue. Sadly it is not.

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?

I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?

I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.

We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG

How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?

Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.

So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?

Well as a casual how about not having our main damage get sneezed on and die. How about more than golem rushing and veil. How about not having our clone generation tied to a master tier forcing us into a select build limiting our potential.
I want more traits skills that take us away from a dueling class. More aoe, let us step out from the roaming dps role.

Have you ever tried making a build without DE?

This is sad. I have given you examples and you ask if I have made a build without de?? Depending on game mode sure and yes. You are very hostile and seem to be under the impression it is a l2p along with level of play issue. Sadly it is not.

Hostile? L2P? I am starting to have a constructive talk with you now and you tell me I am hostile?

PS: I play a build in PvP without DE. And I am a devout PvP player.

What I would most like is a viable ranged 1 handed Power weapon and some sort of Leap (like warrior sword 2).

Yes hostile I have responded to your question but the burning has caused you to skip read. I have also stated your assumption over the state of this class is flawed. I will repeat it is not a l2p or at what level you play. We need some quality of life issues names above. Yet you focused on de.

You’re both derailing and not really providing good points … please take to PM or another thread. Have a discussion; not an argument.

What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?
Ways to operate in environments where shattering isn’t viable nor is keeping phantasms alive.

Our dependence on our illusions surviving running to the target (or even being able to run to it) and/or our illusions ability to survive AOEs in order to provide the same damage, utility, etc. as other classes has us in a sometimes bad spot. Even with Signet and Traits for more HP for our illusions, they are not hardy enough. Something to help would be appreciated.

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most?
WvW Utility (portals, reflection, stealth, time warp, etc.)
Small skirmishes (~5 per side) that don’t include Thieves on the opposing side … Thieves ruin us.

What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the least?
Fights where illusions can’t survive long enough for a good shatter nor can phantasms survive enough to keep pummeling a target. This sadly happens everywhere except sPvP … but Thieves are in abundance in sPvP … good Thieves are Mesmer kryptonite.

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?
Less dependence on the survival of our Illusions or somehow compensating us when our illusions are prematurely killed … heck, tick a second off my illusion-generating cooldowns when they are killed in some way that isn’t a shatter … or give me a buff in these cases. Or make it less likely for my poor illusions to die to a stiff breeze so my weapons depending on them isn’t such a liability.

Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?
I did stop playing Mesmer for a while and starting having all sorts of alts because of that (though I always come back to my Mesmer … that Utility is nice).

Good Thieves have always been monsters, but being the class that is largely helpeless against one of the best top-level PvP classes can be rage-inducing.

Combine that with the fact that it is largely abilities with no “tell” for me to see to react to (you know … counterplay), and it can get quite frustrating. This is a good bit of why I get off my Mesmer … too many Thieves running around? Change to an alt and start stomping said Thieves.

In all honesty. If any of the new MMOs I had tried weren’t such failures, I probably wouldn’t have come back. Though I am sad I missed the Living Story Part 1 … bit peeved no one thought about replay of it until Part 2 came out.

What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining?
I had completely lost faith in ArenaNet and quit the game for a while. As I stated before, I only came back because the current MMOs out failed worse and ArenaNet addressed some of my issues in their interviews about changes in the expansion (we’ll see if words are more than just words).

As far as what has damaged my faith in the devs:
(1) They seem to ignore what the Mesmer community says they would absolutely love to have. We’ve been asking for another mainhand weapon since beta (often for a mainhand pistol) … when they got an opportunity to add it when they decided the expansion would give a new weapon to each class … they gave Mesmers a shield. Now, the shield could rock our worlds and we all just love it to death … but imagine the level of excitement there would be if it had been the weapon that’s been requested for years … instead of all the threads saying “let’s try to be positive while we wait”. Also imagine the possible variety of builds if we have 3 mainhands and 4 offhands instead of 2 mainhands and 5 offhands.

There have been several other good suggestions and I just don’t see them. I remember when the Mesmer community had all sorts of great, well-known streamers, theorycrafters, etc. and things were quite positive despite the bugs and issues we had at that time. Coming back I see even less of them (though I see some of you have stuck around! woot to that! and some new faces) and the overall community seems much less positive … and I can’t say I blame them (so some of it is exaggerated … like in all the forums … but only some).

(2) Nerfing things that were only seen as “OP” by players at low skill levels (not even average levels)

• Example: Confusion. When applied to you, there is an effect on your character, your screen changes hues, there is a condition icon on your screen, and each time you attack you see a damage number with the confusion icon and your health goes down. There were all these “clues” that you had confusion on you, yet players would just kitten on with their auto-attack and kill theirselves. Obviously they couldn’t be expected to pay attention to any of these plethora of visual cues and it was deemed “OP” and nerfed.

If they applied the same logic across the board, why are Reflection abilities still in the game … plenty of bad Longbow Rangers, etc. kill themselves every day … and reflection isn’t limited in the number of players it can affect … and reflection can’t be cleansed.

(3) Wanting to have e-sports, but still having abilities in the game that have no visual animation for players to react to. Counterplay is a big part of e-sports. If my only options for countering something include “Guess when it will happen” and/or “Pray …” then there is an issue.

(4) Skill changes. Arcane Thievery and Mimic are a great example. Mesmers already had Arcane Thievery which was great. It had a long cooldown but you could use it to strip a boon stacker or throw back conditions on a condition build (we’ll ignore that Necros have this on weapons with much lower cooldowns).

For whatever reason, Arcane Thievery, with its long cooldown, needed to be nerfed …
For whatever reason, Mimic’s reflection and/or it’s re-use of the first projectile it absorbed was too much (PvE I guess).
For whatever reason, Mimic was changed to give Mesmers another way to get boons off our target … though only a hostile target …

It doesn’t make much sense.

What would have to happen to earn back your trust?
Changes that make sense.

What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?
Either make illusions far less apt to die to AOE and other mechanics we can’t do anything about … or give us some sort of recompense effect for when those mechanics prematurely end our illusions’ lives.

Otherwise, start moving us away from our dependence on them … and not by making them suck … by giving us something good to replace them. Two bads doesn’t make a good :-p

Reading the answers I came up with this conclusion: ANet needs to buff our interrupt traits so that we stop playing as a thief and start playing as a mesmer. And maybe this is what our specialization will do for us, they even stated that it’ll affect PvP the most (don’t have the exact quote).

PS: I’m not saying we’re all playing shatter, I play 3 builds in PvP, 1 is double-ranged shatter, 1 is “PhantRupt” and 1 is a celestial MtD I play for fun, I just hope ANet comes up with a similar thought and, possibly, a “fix”.

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?

I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?

I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.

We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG

How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?

Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.

So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?

For me this problem is not accurately identified or targeted.

Instead of looking at “casual” and “top 1%” players, I think it’s more appropriate to look at builds and their strengths and weaknesses.

Some of the weaknesses for the small variety of distinct builds that we have are so opposed to each other that where one build might pass with flying colours, another build will fall flat on its face.

Take the common issue of fighting a thief – polar opposites depending on build. But then another build might run into a different wall – for example a condition build against an appropriately built ele. I get the whole rock/paper/scissors thing, but to have some weapon/utility/trait options be so devastating in one scenario and be almost useless in another is the root of the problem.

Another example is traited focus – take it against a greatsword mesmer and there’s no difference (almost a weakness tbh), take it against an engineer/ranger and it’s night and day.

I dunno, that’s just how it appears to me. Maybe when we get build templates things might be easier – but then we’ll just have “template wars” which doesn’t really solve the problem.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM?

I think mesmer is the most trait-dependent class in the game. We get some AMAZING traits, but then a lot of our base abilities and mechanics are just really weak without traits: lots of mediocre (or straight-up poor) damage, some unpleasantly long cooldowns, tricks that flat-out have little value unless you trait for them. This makes the class really sad to level (which I’m sure puts off some players), and also makes build-making an exercise in not only finding cool synergies and strengths but also running around trying to figure out how to minimize glaring colossal weaknesses.

We’re also really lacking a way to contribute consistently in fights where a lot of area-effect damage is flying around. This is an entirely unique problem. Not every class has absolutely AMAZING AoE potential, but we also tend to suffer a DPS loss on our single-target damage — this is annoying and weird and busted and stupid. Like, playing Season 2 stuff, I also noticed that the newly-designed encounters were pretty fun, but absolute trash for mesmers. Your phantasms are pretty consistently rendered useless by the mechanics of the boss fights. Which is really annoying when the bosses are hp-sponges you need to burn down.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

For me, Mesmers are only really interesting to play in PvP/WvW. Mostly, that’s fine. But you’re kinda constrained in WvW because your weapon sets give you fairly little big-group impact, so you’re forced to rely on utilities to really help the team.
In PvE, you’re either doing reflects or more-or-less dithering around. Our dithering-around game is good enough to get through most content. It’s just not particularly interesting. Meh, PvE.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

Torch 5 is such a “Huuhh?” skill. It just seems to do a whole heck of a lot of nothing. Ditto Focus 5 in PvP (because people actually move, unlike PvE mobs). Spitballing some fixes:

• Speed up iMage projectiles and make them hit harder, or replace the concept with more of an AoE retal generator.
• iWarden that follows targets a bit while spinning. Maybe not fast enough that it’ll keep pasting you if you outright run-run-run away, but fast enough that you can’t just take a few steps and then keep pew-pewing, at least. (Or widen its impact area to make it more of a real AoE, whatever.)

Also:

• Fix how Power Block interacts with channels and thief 2-5 skills.
• Take a look at how some of our skills work with LOS. I’d love the ability to spawn phantasms a little more flexibly.

I have some ideas for how to improve garbage stuff like Disruptor’s Sustainment, but I figure that’s down-in-the-weeds redesign that’s better for another thread. (Also incredibly armchair/unfounded so who even cares about my opinion? )

(part 1 of 2)

(part 2 of 2)

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

Speaking honestly:

• If they mess up interrupts somehow or nerf our damage output further, I’m probably dropping the game.
• If another class comes along with lots of cool utility powers and similar insta-cast slippery funtimes potential, I might switch. (Thief is too one-note. Elementalist is way too APM-y for me. Other classes feel slow and ponderous.)

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”

Things that were super-sad:

• The confusion/glamours nerf that took out a lot of big-group mesmer gameplay.
• The way they fixed Power Block. Like, not even thinking about how it plays in a thief-vs-mesmer situation.
• Ditto that one time Distortion flat-out stopped granting Invuln for like 24 hours.
  On the other hand:
• They reverted Distortion QUICKLY instead of (for example) waving their hands and going, “Uh, works as intended, somehow!” Clearly Anet isn’t, like, trying to ruin mesmers. They just make mistakes sometimes. And it’s a hard class to really figure out, mechanically.
  Best way to build more trust/happiness:
• A Chronomancer that both (a) WORKS and (b) isn’t supposed to just supercede Vanilla Mesmers. I like a lot of the mechanics we have — their flow, their style, the overall feel of playing the class — so I get the most joy out of seeing stuff that signals that devs get it and want to patch over the rough spots and fill in the gaps instead of bulldozing the whole thing to start over.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

I’m gonna be incredibly selfish here.

Make iMage not suck.

Or buff non-IP Mind Wrack damage (so your 3-clone shatter is the same as an IP Mind Wrack when the player doesn’t throw their own body into the burst).

I am reallly New. But I played a guardian, thief, engineer, and quit all three. Cause I saw members in wvw an fell in love. But I have played a lot of mom games, and know there is always that one class that just makes the game worth playing. They get nerfed, they take a lot of skill to play. That’s this class in a nutshell. As for devs alas I am a noob still. I has no idea who devs are lol. But I do know out of all the forums I read this one is my favorite. So I hope they fix any issues Cause I am in love with my mesmer. Now just got to level to 80 lol. I hope everyone has a great day. Oh an when stressed. I always say eat a sammich with extra bacon, an wash it down with a good cold beer.

Oh an spell check sucks on this phone. Meant mesmers lol an mmo

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

With everything equal as it is now, assuming no balance changes across any other classes, mesmers need better sustain options to remain competitive at the top tier in glassy comps. Of course that then trickles down to all skill/MMR levels. I think Anet tried to accomplish this with the ether signet. I think a tweak there or something similar could change things quite a bit. Now I’ll go on my own little rant.

We pigeon hole ourselves way too much on “the most viable build to play”. I’m a firm believer that we do not lack build diversity. Aside from the horrid GM traits introduced, most of our traits are useful and provide a bevy of good builds to run with solo or with teams. It just takes some creativity and willingness to experiment with not only a new build idea, but new comps to play around those ideas.

The time simply has not been spent exploring all the options, and the time spent has to occur all over again whenever major balance is shifted. In no way do I discount the time top teams have spent trying to find the best builds and comps, but it’s nearly impossible with the low tournament player base we have to fully explore all possible builds to the level that’s needed in order to find viability.

Playing a build for a few hours or even a few days doesn’t count when giving a build a viable or not viable judgement. Play a build for a few weeks, master it. If it has promise, try to put a team comp together around it or augment it with others. THEN you have another few weeks to determine if that single build meshes with four other players.

It’s daunting to think about this for every possible mesmer build and any other class for that matter. If we had triple the amount of players in this game I guarantee we’d see some very interesting, none traditional, seemingly odd builds played at higher levels.

ASP.8093:

In PvE, you’re either doing reflects or more-or-less dithering around. Our dithering-around game is good enough to get through most content. It’s just not particularly interesting. Meh, PvE.

That is a great way of putting it.

skcamow.3527:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

With everything equal as it is now, assuming no balance changes across any other classes, mesmers need better sustain options to remain competitive at the top tier in glassy comps. Of course that then trickles down to all skill/MMR levels. I think Anet tried to accomplish this with the ether signet. I think a tweak there or something similar could change things quite a bit. Now I’ll go on my own little rant.

We pigeon hole ourselves way too much on “the most viable build to play”. I’m a firm believer that we do not lack build diversity. Aside from the horrid GM traits introduced, most of our traits are useful and provide a bevy of good builds to run with solo or with teams. It just takes some creativity and willingness to experiment with not only a new build idea, but new comps to play around those ideas.

The time simply has not been spent exploring all the options, and the time spent has to occur all over again whenever major balance is shifted. In no way do I discount the time top teams have spent trying to find the best builds and comps, but it’s nearly impossible with the low tournament player base we have to fully explore all possible builds to the level that’s needed in order to find viability.

Playing a build for a few hours or even a few days doesn’t count when giving a build a viable or not viable judgement. Play a build for a few weeks, master it. If it has promise, try to put a team comp together around it or augment it with others. THEN you have another few weeks to determine if that single build meshes with four other players.

It’s daunting to think about this for every possible mesmer build and any other class for that matter. If we had triple the amount of players in this game I guarantee we’d see some very interesting, none traditional, seemingly odd builds played at higher levels.

AND If we had more people actually testing the builds that some people post instead of just blatantly shooting it down without extensive testing and tweaking, We will have more people inspired to post their own ideas,

skcamow.3527:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

With everything equal as it is now, assuming no balance changes across any other classes, mesmers need better sustain options to remain competitive at the top tier in glassy comps. Of course that then trickles down to all skill/MMR levels. I think Anet tried to accomplish this with the ether signet. I think a tweak there or something similar could change things quite a bit. Now I’ll go on my own little rant.

We pigeon hole ourselves way too much on “the most viable build to play”. I’m a firm believer that we do not lack build diversity. Aside from the horrid GM traits introduced, most of our traits are useful and provide a bevy of good builds to run with solo or with teams. It just takes some creativity and willingness to experiment with not only a new build idea, but new comps to play around those ideas.

The time simply has not been spent exploring all the options, and the time spent has to occur all over again whenever major balance is shifted. In no way do I discount the time top teams have spent trying to find the best builds and comps, but it’s nearly impossible with the low tournament player base we have to fully explore all possible builds to the level that’s needed in order to find viability.

Playing a build for a few hours or even a few days doesn’t count when giving a build a viable or not viable judgement. Play a build for a few weeks, master it. If it has promise, try to put a team comp together around it or augment it with others. THEN you have another few weeks to determine if that single build meshes with four other players.

It’s daunting to think about this for every possible mesmer build and any other class for that matter. If we had triple the amount of players in this game I guarantee we’d see some very interesting, none traditional, seemingly odd builds played at higher levels.

This game has been out long enough to discover anything new. The builds have been discovered for each of the 3 game modes. Hopefully with the expansion something new and fresh will help mesmers enter a new level of playing in all game modes.
Just look at all the builds that have come out. Either shatter lockdown or pu. The same base skills with small personal favorite picks.

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Tell that to everyone. +1

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Ok let me take a stab at this. Top 3 builds shatter lockdown pu
Clone death has been nerfed
Phantasm build
Mantra build
These so called new builds fit into this category but have some minor traits or personal weapon/sigil/runs choices.
IMo the reason we say certain builds a viable is due to testing the other options. Not like in the past 2 years we didn’t explore

denis.9487:

Zmodd.5427:

Undoubtedly there are many builds being played out there that we don’t know of because they weren’t posted here. It’s really hard to say “no build diversity” without real, “exact”, numbers.

Ok let me take a stab at this. Top 3 builds shatter lockdown pu
Clone death has been nerfed
Phantasm build
Mantra build
These so called new builds fit into this category but have some minor traits or personal weapon/sigil/runs choices.
IMo the reason we say certain builds a viable is due to testing the other options. Not like in the past 2 years we didn’t explore

From What Basis? Lemme guess, forums and youtube.

How bout the people who dont post in the forums, dont stream, don’t record videos.

How about them?

skcamow.3527:

We pigeon hole ourselves way too much on “the most viable build to play”. I’m a firm believer that we do not lack build diversity. Aside from the horrid GM traits introduced, most of our traits are useful and provide a bevy of good builds to run with solo or with teams. It just takes some creativity and willingness to experiment with not only a new build idea, but new comps to play around those ideas.

In case you didn’t see this part of my two-page dissertation (I don’t blame you), I’ll restate it here:

I think the mesmer’s biggest problem is that our base-level no-traits stuff is really rather poor all-around. So, like, some of our traits are hands-down AMAZING. A lot of them, actually! But nearly anything you don’t aggressively trait for… kinda sucks.

Like, let’s take the meta build as an example.

I think folks keep putting 4/4/0/0/6 shatter up on a pedestal as the one-and-only build is that it’kittenting a lot of the spots needed to make mesmer a truly strong class:

• Illusionary Persona is a huge damage boost to Mind Wrack. (It also just makes shatters way more consistent and powerful all-around.)
• Illusions is by far the best tree for mesmer cooldowns, some of which are pretty bad otherwise. That’s because Illusions gives you both shatter skill recharge and Illusionist’s Celerity, which boosts all weapon sets’ phantasms — vital DPS even if you’re not shattering — AND some of the most important skills on each weapon, like Mirror Blade for GS bursting, Phase Retreat for staff defense.
• It’s hard to consistently produce enough clones to shatter without Deceptive Evasion. (It’s not hard to do it sometimes, but DE is the trait that buoys us when we’re in a situation where our clones are going splat a lot because they’re fragile and GW2 is full of cleaving, bouncing, and AoE-ing attacks.)
• Halting Strike / Mental Torment are needed to get the shatter build to the level where it can burst somewhat reliably.

What hoses us is that nearly any deviation from this setup is a biiiig drop in burst damage and a significant hit to sustained DPS. It’s a house of cards.

Does that mean it’s, like, impossible to play something else? No. But most other classes, in my experience, are a lot more forgiving build-wise. It’s easy to take a great build and make it a personalized just-kinda-good build by mucking around with traits or skills or gear a bit. Whereas with nearly every strong mesmer build, moving just one piece tends to send the whole thing flopping around on the floor. This makes it much harder to iteratively develop builds. Also harder to adjust builds to a changing meta.

Because nearly everything we do, as a baseline, is pretty weak without traits.