Guild Wars 2

…either than veil and portal.

I have been playing mesmer since release and I still enjoy playing it. I mostly play WvW in organized groups and every time we have more than 2 mesmers, aka. 2 veils, it would be smarter for additional mesmers to grab another character. I have run the glamour confusion build almost since release but after the ravaging nerfs we had, damage is no longer a thing we contribute with.

The basic strategy for me in a zerg is:
1. put down veil
2. place your glamour fields (nullfield, feedback) on the enemy group and pray that nullfield strips stability.
3. Put up chaos armor as much as you can
4. Don’t die!

This means that the mesmer is worth gold in the first 5 seconds of a fight, but after that worth almost nothing. We don’t do enough damage, we don’t heal very well as healing phantasms die after 1 second and we don’t share boons very well compared to other classes.

I can understand that confusion damage was reduced to 50 %, but after the nerf of Blinding Befuddlement:http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Befuddlement so it now have an internal cooldown of 5 seconds the maximum amounts of confusion stacks I can get is 4 maybe 5 because of the Rune of Perplexity This corresponds to around 65+(0,075*1719)*5 = 709 damage for every tick, and this is the maximum amount.

What do other mesmers in organized groups run and are you happy with the current state of the mesmer? ie. builds for groups

I was going to try a confusing build with halting strike to see if that makes any difference. I really miss the glamour build though.

OP, you’re pretty much bang on. Its why when I get my WvW gear I’m taking my warrior instead because I’ll be a lot more useful in the melee pain train than just camping at the back hoping I deal enough confusion damage to tag something.

I play advanced scout, and sapper. I.e. run ahead of the zerg, hold the circle vs enemy players/zergs, give advanced warnings, trip traps, bait enemy statics/cc’s, tail zergs, harass back lines, break bag farm lanes in keeps to infiltrate with portals, among other things.

As for damage, I don’t sweat it to much. Majoe DPS is someone elses role. I just drop iWarden’s, feedbacks, scepter 3, block proccing retal, spam clones for on death condi’s prestigue blast, sword auto, whatever. I don’t like to play a “stand in the back like a punk, squishy looser mesmer”, so I’m free to be anywhere from our back line, to the thick of the melee, to the enemy’s back line and wreck just as much kitten there as anywhere.

agree with u. spvp balance is to blame. we are officially stuck as a class. we are duelists only. spvp mesmers do well and that prevents us from getting anything. all we will get is spvp passive and support utilities unless they nerf the mesmer to the ground in spvp and then finally give us something we can use in wvw. it is sooo frustrating.

i dont roam and dont wanna be a stupid scout or stupid veilbot.
from now on i am on strike in wvw: no more tw/no more veil/no more portals/no more, im done with this support the warrior servant role!

seriously, lets go on strike! unless u guys wanna be support for the next 9 months!

Yes. Lets all cry a river.

Its funny. Ive never run glamour bomb, never run veil bot, or been expected to be some sort of portal kitten. Yet my commander was contacted by the enemy BG forces we often face asking after me. They conveyed their feelings on how good I was.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself and stop blaming Anet for whatever it is youve got going on. Hell, just yesterday a random guy on my server pm’d me to say I made him want to roll mesmer. No more excuses. Get out there. Be awesome.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Yes. Lets all cry a river.

Its funny. Ive never run glamour bomb, never run veil bot, or been expected to be some sort of portal kitten. Yet my commander was contacted by the enemy BG forces we often face asking after me. They conveyed their feelings on how good I was.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself and stop blaming Anet for whatever it is youve got going on. Hell, just yesterday a random guy on my server pm’d me to say I made him want to roll mesmer. No more excuses. Get out there. Be awesome.

I think you misunderstood me. I am not crying about the nerfs, I am simply trying to start a discussion about the mesmer role in a zerg/organized guild group. I don’t have problems staying alive, tagging enemys or whatever, but more than two mesmers in an organized group is wasted, in my opinion. They might as well go for ele (water field), guardian (boon sharing), warrior (hammer stuns and damage), necro (boon corruption), etc.

No matter how much the mesmer is nerfed I still play it and enjoy it. However I think it is important to always strive to find a role and not be a “jack of all traits”, so to speak.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Yes. Lets all cry a river.

Its funny. Ive never run glamour bomb, never run veil bot, or been expected to be some sort of portal kitten. Yet my commander was contacted by the enemy BG forces we often face asking after me. They conveyed their feelings on how good I was.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself and stop blaming Anet for whatever it is youve got going on. Hell, just yesterday a random guy on my server pm’d me to say I made him want to roll mesmer. No more excuses. Get out there. Be awesome.

yeah great for u, but this is not what most of my mesmer friends and i experience! the warriors domintate every zerg, our poor stability makes us vulnerable to the mass cc going on atm, necros melt us in seconds, yeah commanders ask me to veil them, they assume every mesmers uses veil all the time. eles have a ton of aoes and can actually tag next to theyr water/ fire fields.

all u hear in ts during zvz:
ok blast blast blast, veil, veil, veil, ok warriors ccc, guardians stability up, warriors cc, necro drop the bomb , veil, veil, veil, cc on the front cc in the front, veil, massinvis, necro fear, waterfields, waterfeilds, cc, veil veil,.

soooo erm yeah. VEEEEEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIL!

Cant share boons compared to other professions? Cant heal?

Ha, I almost believed you there ror a second :P.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Love using Mesmer? Love playing support? Introducing the:

CHAOS MAESTRO

Dramatic, I know, but it got your attention didn’t it? It’s an appropriate title, both lore-wise and given that though it seems as if you’re just casting spells randomly, you’re actually picking and choosing whatever boon/condition you need for any situation.

Mesmer? Support?
I’ve had the opportunity to speak with several other more popular support classes and compare data. I can confidently say that Mesmer support is up there with Guardians, Elementalists, and Engineers in regards to boons, healing, and other utilities while being able to quickly adapt to many situations with unique skills like Portal, Feedback, and Signet of Inspiration.

But how useful could that be if Mesmer boons do not last long?
In most cases it does not matter how long they last (they DO last long here, though), but how often you can keep them up. A competent Maestro will have his allies:
-Moving faster(Swiftness)
-Dodging twice as often(Vigor)
-Constantly healing – resisting bleeds/burns (Regeneration)
-Doing more damage than normal (Might&Fury)
Among a myriad of other things without being forced to require a major damage sacrifice. Any armor, from Zerker’s to Cleric’s works fine.

How do I do it?
Staff, 20 Chaos / 15 Inspiration (III), 45% boon duration, and Signet of Inspiration. These ingredients are the core of the Maestro build.

PROS
- The more the merrier
The more enemies are near, the stronger you become. The more allies are near, the more impressive you look compounding their boons.
- Strong regeneration (300-350per tick) and burst heals
With Mantras, we can heal 2800HP every 3 and a quarter(3¼) seconds. In that time, Regeneration would’ve ticked three times(900-1050HP) Allowing us to heal for nearly 4000HP every3 seconds.
- Able to provide nearly EVERY BOON everytime you cast Signet of Inspiration.
Out staff alone can grant 6 of the 9 boons in the game. When played properly, every 2nd Chaos Storm will provide every boon except Stability for atleast 5 seconds.
- High defense with strong reflective abilities.
/dance While enemies own themesleves off your retaliation and projectile reflection.
/dance Even if they don’t, because they probably can’t kill you anyway.
- Persistent Combo Field Generation
Ethereal Fields are almost exclusively provided by Mesmers, and Chaos Armor is one of the greatest buffs.
- Versatile trait selection.
The build is flexible enough to add your own flavor, ‘cuz not everyone wants to be a carbon copy.

CONS
- Below average damage output.
The other Mesmer-types (Shatter, Condition, ect.) will still out-damage you.
- Communication is Key.
It is much harder to assist people when they don’t know how you help them

In battle, your attention will be on preserving teammates rather than finding the best place to directly do damage. You’ll be preoccupied with constantly staying near allies to supply them with boons and heals while controlling enemy attacks with mass reflects, dazes, and pulls. The larger the group, the more powerful you become, using interrupts, heals, and sigils to easily gain 20+ might stacks ontop of your considerable defense.

In addition to being able to apply any boon you want whenever you want, perhaps the most unique strength of this build is it’s ability to apply every boon at the same time (For now, we’ll call it the Boon Storm.) to up to five people. Every minute.

(Warning: This build takes practice and communication. If you are new to the Mesmer class, I would not recommend it.)

Source
We make up to 5 people incredibly resillient, thats what we contribute. Our aoe heals are spammable (no cooldown), which other professions can only dream of!

You can also run a damage spec, and occasionally tag something, if you want.

selan.8354:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Yes. Lets all cry a river.

Its funny. Ive never run glamour bomb, never run veil bot, or been expected to be some sort of portal kitten. Yet my commander was contacted by the enemy BG forces we often face asking after me. They conveyed their feelings on how good I was.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself and stop blaming Anet for whatever it is youve got going on. Hell, just yesterday a random guy on my server pm’d me to say I made him want to roll mesmer. No more excuses. Get out there. Be awesome.

yeah great for u, but this is not what most of my mesmer friends and i experience! the warriors domintate every zerg, our poor stability makes us vulnerable to the mass cc going on atm, necros melt us in seconds, yeah commanders ask me to veil them, they assume every mesmers uses veil all the time. eles have a ton of aoes and can actually tag next to theyr water/ fire fields.

all u hear in ts during zvz:
ok blast blast blast, veil, veil, veil, ok warriors ccc, guardians stability up, warriors cc, necro drop the bomb , veil, veil, veil, cc on the front cc in the front, veil, massinvis, necro fear, waterfields, waterfeilds, cc, veil veil,.

soooo erm yeah. VEEEEEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIL!

So what you want is a new weapon/skill/utility/feature that fits tightly into the zerg meta and can be captured by commanders in an easily shouted, short, pithy saying that isnt VEEEEEIIIIIIIL!

And this would improve your life how?

Call me crazy, but I do believe there is more going on in a fight than just those things which the commander calls. And after the second by second calls for movements, skills, rallies etc are done, the Commander is usually pretty spent for time to cram anything more into his rather sluggish spoken word per second language.

But hey, I hear you. I’m not down on us having more options and more to do. More fun for all!

Alissah.9281:

Cant share boons compared to other professions? Cant heal?

Ha, I almost believed you there ror a second :P.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Love using Mesmer? Love playing support? Introducing the:

CHAOS MAESTRO

Dramatic, I know, but it got your attention didn’t it? It’s an appropriate title, both lore-wise and given that though it seems as if you’re just casting spells randomly, you’re actually picking and choosing whatever boon/condition you need for any situation.

Mesmer? Support?
I’ve had the opportunity to speak with several other more popular support classes and compare data. I can confidently say that Mesmer support is up there with Guardians, Elementalists, and Engineers in regards to boons, healing, and other utilities while being able to quickly adapt to many situations with unique skills like Portal, Feedback, and Signet of Inspiration.

(Warning: This build takes practice and communication. If you are new to the Mesmer class, I would not recommend it.)

Source
We make up to 5 people incredibly resillient, thats what we contribute. Our aoe heals are spammable (no cooldown), which other professions can only dream of!

You can also run a damage spec, and occasionally tag something, if you want.

See this is what i’m talking about. Great to see suggestions.

The boon storm is quite interesting. However as far as I understand it requires that you have some phantasms and illusions up to shatter and thereby get the boon reward. Correct? This can be quite difficult in bigger zerg fights or fights against blobs which we do a lot of in DiVa (who doesn’t love to wipe a blob right?) and a lot other WvW raiding guilds.

About the healing I think that a regroup, a water field and lots of blast finishers is more effective when running in organized guild groups. However for “unorganized” zerging (zerging with a commander) this would be quite effective. Unfortunately I think you would be the only one running a support build in these zergs, maybe except the commander. The heal dodge from guardian is also quite effective and when combined with the sigil of stamina it can be somewhat “spammable”. (Tagging stick and dodge).

However as you mention yourself, this is a great way to share boons to 5 people and who doesn’t like boons! I see this build truly shining in small scale roaming or smaller zerg fights when we talk WvW.

Also I don’t get what people have against the use of veil. Veil is one of the most powerful tools in organized groups. That 2 seconds of invisibility for the whole group is a BIG advantage. So why not use it?

Again, great post Alissah!

Moa’ing, and then stunlocking the enemy commanders.

Heh. I only slot stuff like Portal/Veil/TW if directly asked. My usual set’s Blink/Arcane Thievery/Random 3rd Utility/Mass Invis. Otherwise, I’m the guy introducing the (soon to be 6’ under) enemy to the wonders of Purple. Tag targets/set our guys up with Chaos Storm, Temp Curtain the not-so-stability-addicted/cripple-proof members of the other group. Let alone running a heavy interrupt/condition spec with Perplexity. I get a decent amount of bags, and help our guys wipe fools out.

I know we’ve eaten some nasty nerfs, but never think Mesmer’s some kind of useless class. Hell, the reason we get nerfed so blasted much = pure fear.

Ross Biddle.2367:

selan.8354:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Yes. Lets all cry a river.

Its funny. Ive never run glamour bomb, never run veil bot, or been expected to be some sort of portal kitten. Yet my commander was contacted by the enemy BG forces we often face asking after me. They conveyed their feelings on how good I was.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself and stop blaming Anet for whatever it is youve got going on. Hell, just yesterday a random guy on my server pm’d me to say I made him want to roll mesmer. No more excuses. Get out there. Be awesome.

yeah great for u, but this is not what most of my mesmer friends and i experience! the warriors domintate every zerg, our poor stability makes us vulnerable to the mass cc going on atm, necros melt us in seconds, yeah commanders ask me to veil them, they assume every mesmers uses veil all the time. eles have a ton of aoes and can actually tag next to theyr water/ fire fields.

all u hear in ts during zvz:
ok blast blast blast, veil, veil, veil, ok warriors ccc, guardians stability up, warriors cc, necro drop the bomb , veil, veil, veil, cc on the front cc in the front, veil, massinvis, necro fear, waterfields, waterfeilds, cc, veil veil,.

soooo erm yeah. VEEEEEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIL!

So what you want is a new weapon/skill/utility/feature that fits tightly into the zerg meta and can be captured by commanders in an easily shouted, short, pithy saying that isnt VEEEEEIIIIIIIL!

And this would improve your life how?

Call me crazy, but I do believe there is more going on in a fight than just those things which the commander calls. And after the second by second calls for movements, skills, rallies etc are done, the Commander is usually pretty spent for time to cram anything more into his rather sluggish spoken word per second language.

But hey, I hear you. I’m not down on us having more options and more to do. More fun for all!

erm yeah i would like to be able to tag and deal dmg with class the same way as other classes can do. if i wanted to play support, i would use chaoses buuild, but i dislike support. the classes shouldnt be so separated, that warrior=dps, ele= dps/healing, necro=condi/dps, guardian=tank, thief=dps, mesmers=support?!?!

i wanna be able to fight in zergs like i used to during glam times. they took glam and left us with 1v1, roaming skills. we lack aoe, multitargeting skills, they even nerfed temporal curtain which is kinda important in wvw when 3 warriors charge u for example. we lack stability too.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Yes. Lets all cry a river.

Its funny. Ive never run glamour bomb, never run veil bot, or been expected to be some sort of portal kitten. Yet my commander was contacted by the enemy BG forces we often face asking after me. They conveyed their feelings on how good I was.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself and stop blaming Anet for whatever it is youve got going on. Hell, just yesterday a random guy on my server pm’d me to say I made him want to roll mesmer. No more excuses. Get out there. Be awesome.

Just curious…what spec/armor set/weapon set do you run that attracts the attention of the masses?

Mek.2947:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Yes. Lets all cry a river.

Its funny. Ive never run glamour bomb, never run veil bot, or been expected to be some sort of portal kitten. Yet my commander was contacted by the enemy BG forces we often face asking after me. They conveyed their feelings on how good I was.

I think you need to look deep inside yourself and stop blaming Anet for whatever it is youve got going on. Hell, just yesterday a random guy on my server pm’d me to say I made him want to roll mesmer. No more excuses. Get out there. Be awesome.

Just curious…what spec/armor set/weapon set do you run that attracts the attention of the masses?

^
this
also what masses are we talking about? 5-10?im talking 30-60!

Out of curiosity, what do Thieves contribute to a big zerg?

I think by design we excel much better in small group/roaming scenarios rather than large mobs. Let the soldiers clash in battle, its just not really our style.

However, like Alissah stated we can definitely find roles in a zerg. All of our glamours are still zerg-friendly (and still can do damage, just not as much) and we excel in support role… And yeah, you can still roll all ’Zerkers and dish out boons/heals/damage.

As for healing via Phantasmal Regen, we have plenty of other sources of Regeneration (Not including Superior Runes of Dwayna), its the combination of all the regen we can stack (easily 30+ seconds, or 9000+ HP if running a healer-spec) from Chaos Armor, Phantasms, taking damage, and Signet of Inspiration procs that make it so that our Mantra heals + Regen are pumping out 11k heals in 10 secs… Without blowing skills/endurance like Eles, Guardians, and Engineers.

Also, if there WERE more support Mesmer in a zerg (like 3 or 4) then you’d see a more significant impact. One support player can only do so much for 30 people.. But if you have 1 support for every 5 players, then a group of 20 could be kitten near invincible with 5 well-placed healer/support.

Someone PM’d me with a Zerg-centric modification of the Chaos Maestro. 0/20/20/30/0 for Deceptive Evasion and Shattered Conditions. Combined with null field, they offer great condition removal, nearly all boons, and burst heals in AoE at the cost of Warden’s Feedback (not really too necessary for zergs.) and Prismatic Understanding.. And they still could’ve done all that while wearing full Zerkers.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Out of curiosity, what do Thieves contribute to a big zerg?

I think by design we excel much better in small group/roaming scenarios rather than large mobs. Let the soldiers clash in battle, its just not really our style.

However, like Alissah stated we can definitely find roles in a zerg. All of our glamours are still zerg-friendly (and still can do damage, just not as much) and we excel in support role… And yeah, you can still roll all ’Zerkers and dish out boons/heals/damage.

As for healing via Phantasmal Regen, we have plenty of other sources of Regeneration (Not including Superior Runes of Dwayna), its the combination of all the regen we can stack (easily 30+ seconds, or 9000+ HP if running a healer-spec) from Chaos Armor, Phantasms, taking damage, and Signet of Inspiration procs that make it so that our Mantra heals + Regen are pumping out 11k heals in 10 secs… Without blowing skills/endurance like Eles, Guardians, and Engineers.

Also, if there WERE more support Mesmer in a zerg (like 3 or 4) then you’d see a more significant impact. One support player can only do so much for 30 people.. But if you have 1 support for every 5 players, then a group of 20 could be kitten near invincible with 5 well-placed healer/support.

Someone PM’d me with a Zerg-centric modification of the Chaos Maestro. 0/20/20/30/0 for Deceptive Evasion and Shattered Conditions. Combined with null field, they offer great condition removal, nearly all boons, and burst heals in AoE at the cost of Warden’s Feedback (not really too necessary for zergs.) and Prismatic Understanding.. And they still could’ve done all that while wearing full Zerkers.

well chaos, u are right about the thief, but they can still go pick a straggeler and run away without dying.
now u like support and thats fine. i personally dislike it a lot. i dont wanna be the oe helping the op warriors to get the lootbags. i wanna rank up, i wanna get loot, i wanna get titels, like everyone else! glam in its current form even with perplexity is still nothing even close to what other classes can do that have more hp, more toughness, more cleansing and way more condition dmg.
we are stuck as spvp duelists and stuck as support wvw class which should b a choice and not the only option left

@OP, as stated, support is a viable role mesmers can play in zergs. Many support builds (including the Chaos Maestro) are listed at this link:

SUPPORT Mesmer Spotlight

Alternatively, you could run a clone spam condition build. The on-death nature of inflicting conditions makes your clones like bombs as you send them into their death.

The Clone Spammer

Here is a unique build which provides a lot of utility:

The Zerg Soldier

Or for a completely different playstyle which is very disruptive, try chillruption (check my signature). You could run either the power or condition build but the power build is better vs zergs and provides decent group utility with all the cc. Hint: something I don’t have in the power build link is perplexity runes, which are way fun with that build due to the AoE interrupts.

There are more options than this even. We currently have plenty of fun, diverse and viable builds to play with in WvW. In a lot of cases, you can just run what build you want and if you are in a zerg, understand you will be asked at times to throw up a veil or portal. No problem! Do the duty and move on. It’s not going to occupy 100% of your time in a zerg.

Mesmer’s contribute:

• portal
• veil
• DPS
• boon generation
• Phantasms (you can launch a phantasm at a door and go stand sentry, doing double duty)
• AOE Heal
• Ability to roam and scout on par with Rangers and thieves
• crowd control (focus 4 is one of two pulls in the game, and by far the better)
• swiftness without an AOE limit (anyone who crosses the line gets swiftness)

With the coming changes we will also have

• AOE condition clear
• AOE stability

I can’t think of any other class, other than guardians, who provide as much to a zerg.

Mesmer is one of the only ones with AoE knockback and pull. Dump Null Field, temporal curtain, pull them, and then iWave them. The zerg’s biggest weakness is that they clump together so it’s an easy target. These kind of early CCs are crucial to ZvZ since the fight is typically decided in the first five seconds.

Get rid of zergs – problem solved. Seriously.

Mesmers also contribute

• AOE regeneration.

The more I think about it the more I find. I think that sometimes people assume that because we are the only class that can portal and the best class an hiding a zerg that’s all we do.

@selan: I definitely see your point but its no so much being forced into a role as much as its playing to your strengths. Mesmer by design are better for smaller engagements, and few if any classes can confidently face us 1v1.. Thats the tradeoff. We make some ofbthe best scouts, best small group combatants, best support and thus falter in combat effectiveness in a giant zerg. Mes pros and cons and all, glam still works for snagging bags (and you COULD go glam/support for bags + team utility) but at the end of the day big army clashes are best left to soldiers, archers, and classical mages like Eles/Necros. Infiltration specialists like Mes and Thief? Not so much.

I’d like to see better AOE effects also, and less randomness to our skills.

Any misdirection based class is going to excel in a small group scenario. In a zerg there is no misdirection, because people aren’t actively going after anyone in particular. So they don’t care about your clone or invisibility. They just keep hitting skills until one side or the other is dead.

Glamour was great because it fed off of this mentality / punished it.

However, if you get in a situation where things are a little chaotic, but where people are trying to process and figure things out, the misdirection classes like thieves and mesmers excel.

TooBz.3065:

Mesmer’s contribute utility skills (portal,veil, etc.), DPS, boons, ranged and close up attack capability, fire and forget phantasms for PvD (so you can launch a phantasm at a door and go stand sentry doing two jobs at once), AOE healing, ability to roam and scout on par with Rangers and thieves, with the coming changes we will also have AOE condition clear and AOE stability, crowd control through focus 4 (one of only two pulls in the game) and GS 5, swiftness to anyone who crosses the focus 4 line.

I can’t think of any other class, other than guardians, who provide as much to a zerg.

erm aoe healing:support

aoe condition cleanse:supportnecro, guardian,necro2

veil:support (unless u are a glamour mesmer)

tw:support
portal: support (unless glamour build)

aoe stability: support: (yay 2 sec is like sooo much)
guardian,
guardian2

dps: only certain builds are ok, but require for u to stay far far in the back as u are pure glass

roaming=spvp builds which i have a ton to choose from

focus 4: i use it all the time but the warrior meta has a lot of stability

clones: often die in a zerg before they actually shatter
phantasm: get initial burst off which is good, but die very very quickly

the thing is that if u wanna support u might wanna go guardian or ele
we only separate from other classes with portal/veil and tw
rangers can attack a gate aswell while checking sentry
just look closely next zerg fight and try to count the mesmers. i meet like 1-2 in a zerg of 30-40 atm. all u see is warriors/necros/guardians.

now, im not saying we got nothing, but all the other classes(apart from ranger and thief) have gotten buffs that help in wvw. now warriors get their shouts buffed. we get a ton of nerfs and then a few support buffs, while the meta in wvw is slowly becoming a pain(not the roaming kind i mean 30v30 stuff)

the mantra is great and all, but not enough for us to keep up with the other classes. look at the scepter autoattack the necro has, lock at his condition buffs, luck at the cc spam warriors, look at the retal/boon guardians have, staffeles get buffed…etc…and we get a mantra……….
aoe heal 2 condis yay
aoe stability 2seconds yay….

Chaos Archangel.5071:

@selan: I definitely see your point but its no so much being forced into a role as much as its playing to your strengths. Mesmer by design are better for smaller engagements, and few if any classes can confidently face us 1v1.. Thats the tradeoff. We make some ofbthe best scouts, best small group combatants, best support and thus falter in combat effectiveness in a giant zerg. Mes pros and cons and all, glam still works for snagging bags (and you COULD go glam/support for bags + team utility) but at the end of the day big army clashes are best left to soldiers, archers, and classical mages like Eles/Necros. Infiltration specialists like Mes and Thief? Not so much.

i get this chaos, but guardian is the better support atm. and for me it is a pain since glam was nerfed to nothingness. i would rather give up all the duelist crap in wvw and all the roaming stuff for viable zvz build.
why do we have to be a 1v1 class only? why cant i at least have the option to be part of the zerg fighters? why do i have to be a kitten warrior if i wanna fight in zergs? why im i forever stuck as a stupid roamer because my classe is duelist only? why cant almost all other classes be part of it?even thieves can run in zergs and pick a victim, down it and then run. thats not ok balancewise!

We contribute class and style to what would otherwise be an unseemly brawl.

I guess if you’re looking for reasons mesmers are lacking, discounting everything we do well is a reasonable strategy. But honestly, I don’t stay in the back and I don’t die that often.

My damage may not be up there with a zerker warrior, but it’s not bad. (although I lack a decent AOE unless I swap out a greatsword).

My build is nothing special either. It changes but this is what I’m messing around with right now.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAsfWl0zip3UzoGb9IipH9mvBckUoavWJF82FC-jUDBYgIYLBEjBisAgEJREBgJPFRjtmpIas6FYKXKyaXoaYAeDYA-w

selan.8354:

i get this chaos, but guardian is the better support atm. and for me it is a pain since glam was nerfed to nothingness. i would rather give up all the duelist crap in wvw and all the roaming stuff for viable zvz build.
why do we have to be a 1v1 class only? why cant i at least have the option to be part of the zerg fighters? why do i have to be a kitten warrior if i wanna fight in zergs? why im i forever stuck as a stupid roamer because my classe is duelist only? why cant almost all other classes be part of it?even thieves can run in zergs and pick a victim, down it and then run. thats not ok balancewise!

Most classes roaming outside of a Zerg are afraid of Mesmer and Thieves and many people would rather run away than risk a fight… There’s good reason for that.

As for “guardian being the better support.” It was that very mentality that made me travel to every other class forum and open a thread (If anyone googles “Support- Mesmer vs Guardian” or any other class, you’ll find the threads.. but I linked a few below) inviting constructive comparison between the supportive capabilities of each class.

The Warrior, Necro, Ranger, and Thief didn’t stand a chance.
Guardians, Elementalists, and Engineers are practically equal to us.

• Guardians offer better healing, but lack the boon support, and enemy control (reflects, ect.) that we do.

• Elementalists can offer boon support without having to spec for it, but if we spec for it we outdo them. Heals are about equal.

• Many Engineers seemed to be just as surprised at their support capabilities as they were at Mesmer’s. That particular thread was awesome, and so are Engineers.

No one class has the best support, and those four classes offer great support in different flavors/playstyles. Guardians excel at healing, Mesmer are unparalleled in boon support, Elementalists provide unique combo fields, and Engineers go bananas with water fields and blast finishers.

As much as I’d love more damaging AoEs.. If we were able to fight in zergs as good as we can roam and scout… well there wouldn’t be much need for the other classes. Then we’d get the torrent of “Only Mesmers are in WvW.” “Mesmers OP.” …and all the nerfs that follow.

(And of course, it could simply be that no one has yet cracked the best Mesmer zerg build. Maybe we should make a thread for theorycrafting on it )

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• Many Engineers seemed to be just as surprised at their support capabilities as they were at Mesmer’s. That particular thread was awesome, and so are Engineers.

It was because of this thread that I started leveling an engineer to use for support

The thing is, most classes are really pidgeonholed in super organized zerg fights. Lets take a look:

Mesmer: Aoe boon stripping, veil, portal, aoe condition removal, projectile reflects, boon amplification (very important)

Thieves: Blast finishers (can be accomplished by guardians/warriors)

Ranger: Water field (isn’t really necessary)

Guardian: Heals, condition removal, stability (very important)

Warrior: Aoe stuns and damage (very important)

Necromancer: Aoe condition damage, condition removal (important)

Elementalist: …fire fields? (isn’t really necessary)

Engineer: …desperately try to not die from retaliation? (isn’t really necessary)

People complain that mesmers are only able to do a couple of things, but if you really look at it, mesmers are actually one of the most powerful and varied classes in terms of what they are commonly asked and capable of doing. Someone mentioned how there’s usually very few mesmers in a zerg. That’s because a single mesmer is such an incredibly dense packet of utility, that’s all you need to accomplish EVERYTHING. A zerg is forced to stack warriors on warriors because each warrior does extremely little.

selan.8354:

agree with u. spvp balance is to blame. we are officially stuck as a class. we are duelists only. spvp mesmers do well and that prevents us from getting anything..

Are you serious ?
Mesmer is considered already by all top tPvP player as unviable.
…
UNVIABLE in 5v5…lol…I mean WTF ??? And then come your second sentence:

There is no place left to shine anywhere currently.

all we will get is spvp passive and support utilities unless they nerf the mesmer to the ground in spvp and then finally give us something we can use in wvw. it is sooo frustrating.

That woulb be the logic. But in reality and as I just said….mesmers are already underdogs of sPvP and what we face is buff to 40% population: warrior.
OMG sometimes I am just really wandering what is the logic
Our major tools to do something in wvw have been remove one by one:
Confusion: nerf down to hell
Blured fenzy: to avoid now at all cost on a retal zerg (you will just die from yourselves).

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• Guardians offer better healing, but lack the boon support, and enemy control (reflects, ect.) that we do.

Ugh…. “Enemy control” Currently only Guardian can share Stability to team. For me Stability can be categorized as “Enemy Control” Simply makes all enemy CC become nothing.

Reflect part. I say it’s 50-50. Guardian has 10s walls while Mesmer only 6s? But Guardian’s wall positioning is hard while Mesmer Feedback is easy just push it. With 1trait Guardian get Wall -20% and last longer while Mesmer need 2x traits for -20% and last longer.

Boon Support…. Is this boon sharing where basicaly u give boons to allies? Guardian Prot and stabilitys shout simply too good for teamplay. Not to mention Pure of voice too remove 1condi/ shout. I don’t think Guardian lack of boon support :S Tell me more about this

Stability is an ally-supportive boon, it has no direct effect on enemies.

Weakness/Poison/Cripple/Pull/Dazes/Blind/Knockback/Ect. is control.. all of which we have.

We have two skills on a 20s cooldown (Traited Focus) that can reflect. Two wardens with Phantasmal Haste can put up perma reflection. Other reflect sources Medic’s Feedback, Feedback, Mimic, Reflect on Distortion.

By them lacking our boon support, I mean the fact that we can share all the boons in the game on our own in addition to what others can provide us. Stability is great and all, but Protection is better damage mitigation (and we can provide longer lasting Protection than guards)

Stability is literally the only boon they can apply better than us besides Aegis.. and with the changes to MoConcentration (A potential 9seconds of AoE Stability every 20 secs) that’s likely to change. Boon removal they can do better than us… for now, and even that is debatable depending on the Mesmer. (Shattered Conditions + Null Field )

Chaos Archangel.5071:

glam still works for snagging bags

Eh? Build? As I mentioned before in other threads I tested this a while back (before perplexity) and found glam condition (confusing enchantments) to be ineffective verse zergs.

Helios.3598:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

glam still works for snagging bags

Eh? Build? As I mentioned before in other threads I tested this a while back (before perplexity) and found glam condition (confusing enchantments) to be ineffective verse zergs.

If I’m not mistaken… Check Kylia’s builds. I don’t know much about Glam, but I know you can still do enough damage to net bags (Not AMAZING damage, but bag-worthy).

Okay.. I;m trying to read ur minds… Hope i can get what u’re saying

Stability is an ally-supportive boon, it has no direct effect on enemies.

For me it has. Nothing more embarasing than got pulled by GS Guardian then got Massive AOE Spike from enemy team. But if u don’t consider it as “Enemy control” Well it’s fine

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Weakness/Poison/Cripple/Pull/Dazes/Blind/Knockback/Ect. is control.. all of which we have.

Guardian can Pull equal like Mesmer. But i must admit Guardian GS Pull is easier compared to Mesmer Focus Pull. Enemy range from Center of the Curtain (Focus #4)really matters. Guardian has Ring of Warding and Line of Warding, Enemy can;t pass throu it except on Stability. Blind… Guardian has Blind and it’s AOE. Knock back Thief from their house? They have their shield also.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

We have two skills on a 20s cooldown (Traited Focus) that can reflect. Two wardens with Phantasmal Haste can put up perma reflection. Other reflect sources Medic’s Feedback, Feedback, Mimic, Reflect on Distortion.

I kinda so so with this. Maybe coz i simply like “Flexibility” and focus for my taste is not that “Flexible” While Guardian using 1x Walls for 10s dura while can choose whatever weapons he like for both Slots. Sure u can beat “Guardian Reflect” but u sacri 1of ur Off hand and maybe 20points for trait to beat 10point of trait. Well again… “Flexibility” Well at least i already stated my point for this reflect part. NExt…

Chaos Archangel.5071:

By them lacking our boon support, I mean the fact that we can share all the boons in the game on our own in addition to what others can provide us. Stability is great and all, but Protection is better damage mitigation (and we can provide longer lasting Protection than guards)

What if there’s no “Others”? Are u gonna make ur own boon using Decoy + mass invis? Then 1of ur allies downed. U need mass invis to revive him coz stability can take him out and “Sorry i already wasted my mass invis to create Prot Boons” Probably yes u can make longer Prot dura from Guardian but… Wasting mass invis and Decoy and Torch Stealth…

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Stability is literally the only boon they can apply better than us besides Aegis.. and with the changes to MoConcentration (A potential 9seconds of AoE Stability every 20 secs) that’s likely to change. Boon removal they can do better than us… for now, and even that is debatable depending on the Mesmer. (Shattered Conditions + Null Field )

Guardian boon removal… What….?? Condi removal maybe..??

9s AOE Stability within 23s? Hmm okay cool enough coz my Healer Guardian probably only 7,5/ 24s (50% Boon dura).

The reason why i ask is simply i’m wondering. Can this “New Support” Mesmer replace my Healer Guardian Role in my Team? I can provide my Healer Guardian data for comparison if u want.

Thx for ur reply

I’m pretty sure avtr in FA runs zergs of nothing but glam mesmers and that group is a force to be reckoned with

jportell.2197:

I’m pretty sure avtr in FA runs zergs of nothing but glam mesmers and that group is a force to be reckoned with

I’d think they’ve all swapped over to Triforce, which is arguably more BA. Glambomber’s just Confusion/Blind, Tri’s rocks Conf/Reflect/Retal. It frigging melts the same kinda foolish 1-spammers G-Bomb used to.

Chrhal.4983:

This means that the mesmer is worth gold in the first 5 seconds of a fight, but after that worth almost nothing.

Well played, mesmer can keep the gold from turning to, um, fertilizer by setting their zerg up for the win. Everything past that could be considered gravy, but still any contribution is greater than no contribution at all.

People love them some mesmer. They’re more than just a veil or a portal or null field. They’re ALL of these things with purplely butterflies all about! What more could you want?

Ok, cookies, but past that…

My bad, I definitely meant condition removal. And if you could PM me your guardian info, I’d be happy to give you the Mesmer comparison and we can talk shop.

As for your other points.

Reflects – Even untraited, the Warden still destroys projectiles, which is great as there’s some projectiles that can’t be reflected and can still be destroyed. But even then we just have far more options for reflections. And Feedback’s dome shape gives it more advantage over Wall of Reflect.

Boons – Staff alone is 6 of the 9 boons in the game. Staff, Inspiration III (You’re gonna be traiting Inspiration in many most Mesmer support builds.) + Altruism Runes and you’re good to go in many cases. As for the stealth = Protection. I personally use Veil in my build and tend to average about 15 secs of Protection on my own without wasting Mass Invis (and in that 6 second stealth I just AoE healed for 6k+).

Pull – Temp. Curtain is an AoE pull, which is a huge difference.. Plus with Bountiful Interruption, that one pull can easily net 15+ Might in a zerg battle. Same with the GS.

And, if I’m not mistaken, most of this stuff is on a lower cooldown than Guardian’s equivalent. (NOT sure, but I think so.)

Ithurien.3652:

We contribute class and style to what would otherwise be an unseemly brawl.

Enough said! I have no more questions

Ithurien.3652:

We contribute class and style to what would otherwise be an unseemly brawl.

This deserves one thousand +1s.

The only, ONLY issue I see for mesmers in the zerg meta is the disparity for tagging between us and other classes. Tagging criteria needs to change, not so much mesmers.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Ithurien.3652:

We contribute class and style to what would otherwise be an unseemly brawl.

This deserves one thousand +1s.

Oh my god.

The costume contest seems like a better idea by the day :o.

@discussion: keep in mind that going full support does *not mean you wont be getting loot bags. You can still do aoe damage! Get a greatsword, mirror blade shatter, berserker will all tag stuff. On even ground the auto attack will ven hit 3 targets!

I also have a fun suggestion actually… Whenever someone does extra damage because you applied might to them, it also counts as your own damage and shows up in a “might damage floater”. You can disable the floaters in options, if you want. It would make tagging in zergs alot easier, and encourage boon application ^__^.
Just some random thoughts, though.

I just came up with a really strange idea.

I just created a build that allows me to jump into the enemyzerg and shatter with all I’ve got^^

i only use VI in illusions for being sure that even if something goes wrong i can still invu at least 1s

edit: trait VI illusions
here’s the build

now how to play this crappy looking trollbuild:

1. use prestige and run into the enemyzerg
2. use torch 5 and sword 3(2 times) and shatter F2 // now they know your’re there
3. use sword 2 to dodge all attacks and get a better view for the situation (the whole zerg should focus you now (well they did focus me)
4. create 2 clones with mirror images and shatter F4 (3s invu)
5. take out your staff and create a phantasm (3), dodge and shatter F1
6. activate signet of illusions and instandly shatter F1 + F2
7. jump put of the zerg with phase retreat and shatter F4 + use mass invis
8. run. you just trolled a whole zerg all alone!

also works fine in zerg v zerg ^^ massdmg through confusion and you’re invulnerable the whole time

Kicast.1459:

selan.8354:

agree with u. spvp balance is to blame. we are officially stuck as a class. we are duelists only. spvp mesmers do well and that prevents us from getting anything..

Are you serious ?
Mesmer is considered already by all top tPvP player as unviable.
…
UNVIABLE in 5v5…lol…I mean WTF ??? And then come your second sentence:

There is no place left to shine anywhere currently.

all we will get is spvp passive and support utilities unless they nerf the mesmer to the ground in spvp and then finally give us something we can use in wvw. it is sooo frustrating.

That woulb be the logic. But in reality and as I just said….mesmers are already underdogs of sPvP and what we face is buff to 40% population: warrior.
OMG sometimes I am just really wandering what is the logic
Our major tools to do something in wvw have been remove one by one:
Confusion: nerf down to hell
Blured fenzy: to avoid now at all cost on a retal zerg (you will just die from yourselves).

yeah the blurred frenzy nerf was abig one as zerg retal eats u alive. in spvp i seem to have a little more viability since i swiched to blackwater mesmer.

the glam nerf took away a lot from us in wvw and it was too much. also i know a lot of mesmer that used the immortal build in roaming and zergs. and that one has been nerfed to the ground aswell. what im saying is not that i think we are terrible, but while almost all other classes received buffs, anet gutted our most used builds in wvw. and now we havent gotten much back to fight in zergs.
triforce is a great for survival, and anyone using a bow is gonna get hit very very hard, but we are in a warrior meta atm and they dont use bows.
lets say we run with a group of 10 mesmers into a 10 warrior train….ouch!
also ive seen nome pretty nasty power necro builds out there where the autoattack hits u for almost 3k.
its jusy a litle frustrating atm as i really hope we get something back that damaged zergs or getting some of our glam back.

Me Games Ma.8426:

I just created a build that allows me to jump into the enemyzerg and shatter with all I’ve got^^

also works fine in zerg v zerg ^^ massdmg through confusion and you’re invulnerable the whole time

Works for tagging, but the damage with a power build is much better (spike kills people)

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Reflects – Even untraited, the Warden still destroys projectiles, which is great as there’s some projectiles that can’t be reflected and can still be destroyed. But even then we just have far more options for reflections. And Feedback’s dome shape gives it more advantage over Wall of Reflect.

Again i;m so so with this. Feedback has better position coz right in enemy side but lower duration(6-8s) while Guard’s wall has better duration(10-11/12) but sucks at positioning. Well normaly my Guardian walk normaly into center of the battle then drop his wall. iWarden… Like all phantasm got destroyed easily in teamplay? But i;m not gonna talk about Phantasm assume ur role is not hitter. But point to note i dunno if u can take Mimic/ F4 reflect to account coz that’s only benefit urself aka can’t protect ur teammates. The purpose doing Anti Projectile stuff is to protect Entire Team from Enemy projectile right? Well maybe u can use mimic then stand in front ur friend to “COver” from projectile…. But….

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Boons – Staff alone is 6 of the 9 boons in the game. Staff, Inspiration III (You’re gonna be traiting Inspiration in many most Mesmer support builds.) + Altruism Runes and you’re good to go in many cases. As for the stealth = Protection. I personally use Veil in my build and tend to average about 15 secs of Protection on my own without wasting Mass Invis (and in that 6 second stealth I just AoE healed for 6k+).

2 Utilities slot for 15/36. While my Guardian probably only 6/28 and probably the last ur util slot will be Stability Mantra? Plz be note also i only bring Guardian shouts to the table. Still no weapons and Class skills.

Okay i’m starting to get the pic of this New Support Mesmer. I;m gonna try my best to neutral for this comparison.

Can share stability like Guardian.
Can share Prot like Guardian.

For these 2point i won’t say which 1is better. Mesmer maybe have longer dura but the method giving the boon kinda not “Flexible”

Assume this Mesmer utilities are Veil, Signet share boon and Stability Mantra. U have no Condi removal for the team. Actually Guardian AOE Condi removal from Pure of Voice is not that good, Only 1condi/ shouts but lately it became bugged to remove 2condis/ shout. Either a bug or a feature to fight the massive Condis in this current Meta i don;t know but i dun mind to remove 2condis/ shout since i’m not COndi damager Role. Pure of voice probably the most standard Team Condi removal aka most Guardian take it. F2 guardian can remove 3condis but since my HEaler guardian didn;t take that trait let’s just leave it alone.

Continue to part 2