Guild Wars 2

Next.. Might sharing. Sure u can use bountiful interupt to gain lot of might but according to my exp to interupt 5 people at once is hard. If u can interupt more than 3people at once probably ur enemy has no Guardian aka Stability Sharing. While my Guardian is using Staff + Mace and Shield. From Staff he can use Empower to provide his team 12stack of might for 10s base with 20s CD but in most case he use empower together with stability shout so he can;t be interupted and in the end of empower it will heal around 3k coz Empower healing is 1:1 with Healing power.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower

Pull – Temp. Curtain is an AoE pull, which is a huge difference.. Plus with Bountiful Interruption, that one pull can easily net 15+ Might in a zerg battle. Same with the GS.

I kinda don’t get this part…. Guardian GS Pull is also AOE pull as long the 1st blade land properly into enemy as long the guard is not blinded and enemy didn;t dodge. Well same with Focus thou if enemy dodge or the mesmer blinded. 2 points. I don’t really agree if Mes can pull better from Guardian, But if we are talking SUpport Mesmer with Focus vs My Healer Guardian. yes ur Support Mesmer can pull while my Healer can;t

My Healer Guardian Data:
- Hp 15-16k base
- Crit rate 30-33% (Perma vigor coz symbol area)
- Weapon Staff + mace and Shield
- 2k heal/ dodge/ 5s coz perma vigor (Full stack sigil and Food) =http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Selfless_Daring
- Can share Might = http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empower
- Utilties = Wall of reflect (11s), Stand ur Ground, Hold the Line
- 300 ++ Regen Boon/s (Coz high healing power)
- 3k DEF
- 50% Boon Dura
- kittenty ATK
- Have CC = http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Line_of_Warding and http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_of_Absorption
- Sigils = Gain Dodge when swap (More dodge = More heal)
- Can remove 1 or 2 condis from allies while using shouts = http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Voice
- 6s Symbol Mace every 8s for Light Field.
- Have emergency heal in case allies got spiked = http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Resolve

Problem with support mesmer probably there’re 2.
1. Flexibility
Sure u can heal and share boon but u are not as flexible like Guardian. Example in Guardian case, Guardian can still use skills while he is removing Condis, Give boon and healing allies with dodge. While Mesmer need to do nothing for 2,75s to heal allies?
2. Threat Lv
Both my Healer Guardian and this Mesmer probably has no threat in term of damage. Enemy simply will skip u and hit ur Hitters. But my Guardian can heal Allies faster coz Guardian is more flexible and provide quick Prot or stability Boon while Mesmer need to be more careful since Mesmer boon sharing is every 36s with trait.

Thx for the discusion thou. It was nice one XD

I don’t look for ways to give boons, utilities skills, and such to the group. I do what I do well. I kill. If it turns into a clash between two zergs. As a melee mesmer, I stealth and teleport my way to the back of the enemy zerg and pick them off from behind while my realm’s zerg rushes the front. That just seems like the smartest thing to do as a character that can stealth. That’s what I contribute to a zerg.

Menaka.5092:

Me Games Ma.8426:

I just created a build that allows me to jump into the enemyzerg and shatter with all I’ve got^^

also works fine in zerg v zerg ^^ massdmg through confusion and you’re invulnerable the whole time

Works for tagging, but the damage with a power build is much better (spike kills people)

My goal isn’t to kill them. in a big zerg there are too many people to rezz everyone who goes into downstate instandly

my goal is to draw their attention – conditions create more nice damage numbers on their screen ( the higher the better) -> when i got their attention i can play with them. my record was to stay invulnerable in the enemy zerg for 16 seconds and then jump out invisible.

they all attacked me and stopped on their way to the tower they wanted to defend

@Nevhie: I’ll use the Chaos Maestro for comparison, since the patch hasn’t hit yet. I’ve been theorycrafting a Mantra Support build that I’ll post when the mantras change.
- HP 20-21k base
- Crit rate 25% (45% with Fury half the time)
- Sword+Focus / Staff
- 3k mantra heal every 3.5 seconds (doesn’t need to blow any other skills/endurance)
-Can share Atleast 10x Might/ Perma Vigor / 50% Fury/ Perma Swiftness / Perma Retaliation / Perma Regeneration / 10+ secs of Protection / Aegis
- Mantra of Pain / Veil / Signet of Inspiration
- 300+ to 350+ Regen (depending on Sigil of Life)
- Sigils Might on Swap (+ altruism runes & Signet for a permanent 10 might stacks)
- Some ungodly defense (Don’t remember the exact number)
- 65% boon duration
- Below average damage (varies based on might/retal)
- CC: Chaos Storm / Temporal Curtain
- Ethereal and Light Fields
- Feedback every 10 seconds when rezzing.
- Group Stealth
- Portals when needed
- Can work with any gear (Even Zerkers.. Without +Healing Power Mantra heals dip to 2.6k and regen becomes pitiful)
The biggest difference between us is that I offer a greater variety of boons and have a higher uptime, while you grant area heals at a faster rate. While Guardians have to blow a lot of different skills to burst heal, Mesmer only has to use Mantra of Pain. At the same time, Mesmer have to be more specialized for our team.
If I’m running in a zerg then I’ll take Medic’s Feedback, but in smaller groups Vigorous Revelation. If my group has a guardian, necro, ele, or engineer then I won’t spec for condition removal. If there’s a guardian, then I won’t need to worry about Stability (with the upcoming patch). If there’s a thief, best believe I’m making sure I’m running Prismatic Understanding. With my trait setup of 0/10/30/30/0 I can swap in/out different utilities (Glamours for example) on the fly and still be able to trait for them. Its all a matter of what we wanna sacrifice for the sake of being really good at the other kinds of support.
As for flexibility, I think its a matter of practice. Guardian is easier (or “smoother” if you will) to support with while Mesmer (less “flexible”) takes more time and effort to learn the right technique. You offer light fields more often, but I also present Ethereal Fields (someone AoE hitting a group with Chaos Armor is in for a baaaad day)
Like I said before, its mostly a matter of preference. Stealths, Portal, different reflects and more boons vs a more sustained healing, condition removal and higher uptime of Stability.

But the two of us together? We’d make magic.

Me Games Ma.8426:

my record was to stay invulnerable in the enemy zerg for 16 seconds and then jump out invisible.

they all attacked me and stopped on their way to the tower they wanted to defend

How did you manage 16 seconds? :-O

JoeKnowMo.9325:

Me Games Ma.8426:

my record was to stay invulnerable in the enemy zerg for 16 seconds and then jump out invisible.

they all attacked me and stopped on their way to the tower they wanted to defend

How did you manage 16 seconds? :-O

Prior to blurred frenzy nerf:

2.5 BF + 4s distortion shatter + 1s signet + 4 second distortion shatter + 2.5 BF + 1s signet + 1 second distortion shatter.

Fun record, there. My own personal best was trolling a SF zerg months ago (back during the SF/ET/FC months-long wackiness) … I was running a heavy PU spec, had them chasing my stealthed self around for a good 5 minutes. Although, I got smashed hard after my skills all went on C/D

Prior to nerf glam build then blurred frenzy, i used to play range ( gs) and melee ( sword/t) in the middle of zerg. I was really offensive. theese nerf and the condi meta finish this type of play for me. More over zerg are better than 5 months ago.
I ve tried different builds, but nothing really fit me and gave such fun.

I leaved zerg when i play my mesmer now, i play it solo or in roam with one or two friend. When i want to play in zerg i play an other class ( guard or war ). I won t switch with the buff of mantras im not keen of charging mantra, and the way to use it. But i ve to say that this patch offer new possibilties.

mesmer in zerg: veil, portal ( ninja tower, castle, golem ), timewarp. depends what is your build

Kwaz

Apparently SF doesn’t learn- I led a 5+ min merry chase for 10+ of them last night, interrupting several camp flips.

I find this entire thread amusing:
1. Servers are different, a Tier 1 and a Tier 8 have very different “Zerg” experiences.

2. If you are seeing the same zerg experience for an hour of play, then you are either doing it wrong or have poor leadership on your server.
-Zerg train, then port a batch of golems, then go flip a camp, then havoc group to mislead their zerg, then rejoin your zerg, then chase a runner, then defend a tower, then jump into a zerg, etc…

3. Mesmers are different from every other class, due to clones/phantasms, teleports, invis, aoe, all in one class. You can’t even begin to discuss our functions compared to other classes, because we don’t just do 1-2 things very well. We can play so many roles, even when set up for a specific build.
-Honestly, do you worry when only one other player is trying to fight you? Do you worry when bombing in and out of fairly even zerg clashes? We can disengage at will, engage how we want (Ranged, melee, stealthed, teleports) and look like 4 players in no time flat.

Ask your commander some time if he’d rather have another well played mesmer or warrior on his map.

Regards
-

aside zvz, What u think about mesmers that they can contribute better than other classes in team oriented matches vs same in fair conditions, gvg matches as deathmatch mode?

ofc same again except veil portal tw pros.. and pls with more logical theories/informations.. example dont say as cuz of crowd controller via stuns.. or telling that mantra healing.. :P

after patch as well if MoC gets buff to aoe still it ll worse than guardians stand your ground.. :P

I definitely agree that MoC needs some kind of duration buff. I think the main issue on ANet’s side, is that they’re looking at the situation as: “Worst Case.” Namely, a Mesmer with MoC/BF/Distortion/Blink/Decoy … and said Mesmer is nigh-invincible in a fight.

What they’re not getting, is that a certain % of Mesmers’d be in-zerg, and running – for instance – mainly Mantra/Glamour specced. Which removes a lot of our class’ in-built defenses, in service to the greater whole.

They have no idea how to balance the skills.. How they can be so blind.. Or why somebodies are always intimidating us.. that mesmers are op bla bla.. show the proof with math or what ever u like to as video or etc.. u saying izerker is strong i say not effective.. u dont show co-efficient, i show and say yes its high with aeo capability, but in practical where it gets die where your gs auto attack is approximately -%150 than thiefs short bow auto attack.. so balanced it as maybe give him invul until he does his first attack.. it s the skill where it took slot.. we do what others do but overall effectiveness is not good as others.. i share boons.. signet of insp is awesome.. 45 sec cd.. somehow it ll get nerfed after patch as the buff stacking.. and is the situation as a mesmer u cant be close at melee that get some nice buffs, can be go as melees that while u re squishy.. maybe best with stability spread anyway is some good skill.. mantra? is awesome heal put.. maybe 2x time from healer mesmer.. but (heal/aps) sucking effectiveness,, where u should put your heal to melee train that has pleanty stuns dazes.. and low healing power effectivenes.. let pros heal with other classes.. fields, uneffected phantasms clones.. boon strip i would like to use necros.. Lich Form, wells? +damage(as Blurred frenzy larger area) lol same cd.. or glamour confusion damage.. bahh go as others maybe put symbols.. scepter.. ? bah i like to go power is better effective.. and let me say again wtf MoP heal spam every 3.15 sec it should be 2.45sec +1 +1 4.45sec if go MoP MoR MoP total 8.15 sec combo 2700*3 8100HP aoe no healing power with 1300healing power 9420HP where is just %16.3 more after 6.50 sec u can do this combo again make delay clicking do i after 7 7.30 sec later.. himm nice.. how big out put heal but prefer use it under arrow rain.. or in zvz to backline pugs.. but u ll ve %78.78 will channel time which gives u open for cc, unmobility, and no other actions, NO DODGE.. yes use ure awesome spikes.. why should i go healing power for regen let ele do them with ranged regen maybe? reflect? yez zvz awesome.. as well with your High critchance crit damage sigils pwn them.. but i see pleanty upskilled, random mobs, rangers.. but for competitive matches there will be no flying projectiles for reflection for regroup.. mace shield? or use wall of reflection which is same cd with +4 sec More duration.. etheral field? 1 mesmer with nullfield blink tw veil will enough no need extra more etherals.. prefeably water fields? poison.. ok mesmer do this this this can do versatile traits.. instead of 2 mesmers i ll roll them to others as need on focusing/roles.. dunno what i am missing still ? zvz do aoe loot bag enjoy.. cuz there ll be no fair environment to fight with same numbers, no restriction to rallybots, upskills, word buffs, environment attractions arrow crafts, slackers.. that u can use your personal skills + team orientation.. for goal as rank.. cuz there is no gvg.. at least we have tpvp and wvw.. so imo in zvz best contribute from mesmer is variation of other color.. how people like to play..

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_inspiration

Anything a Guardian pulls off for boon spam support a Mesmer can replicate. We don’t have to compete against them; they feed us more boons to make everyone better.

Add in:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prismatic_Understanding

And then your fellow Mesmers and Thieves just became another source of synergy.

Mesmers excel in solo and small engagements; but do have a good use in larger fights too as a tide turner and destructive chaff generator. It’s just not as simple and direct as playing a brute Warrior, which is fine, because you’ll often do better than they do in small engagements.

This is pretty much the truth. To all those cool kids saying they’re the bomb by being the baddest mesmer out there, good for you. I command, and have all 8 characters at 80 and know how to play them well. Mesmers really are left as a commander’s batman utility belt at the moment. Granted, a skilled mesmer is invaluable, but in current meta of zerg fights, a skilled mesmer is one who knows when to veil properly, and knows where to be to place those crucial portals. Its not that mesmers are bad par say, its that guardians, necros, eles, warriors are much much better.

If its any consolation, mesmers are exponentially more beneficial than say rangers in a zerg fight, minus their source of water fields. Id put them at about par with engies currently. Are they the best? Nope. Are they the worst? Nope. They’re about low middle.

If i can give any glimmer of hope, the best zerg synergy build i play is 0/20/20/20/10, focusing on reflects. You gain reflect projectiles from:
-reflect on feedback
-reflect on feedback revive
-reflect on distortion
-reflect on focus skills
-access to both glamour cooldown and fall reduction which makes it extremel versatile when those traits are needed.
-staff and sword cooldown reduction.

Its hard to really make the numbers pop like the old glamour build, but with the right gear you can be super survivable and get some numbers from those reflections. All i got. Sorry guys, i feel like mesmers are the coolest and most unique class in the game, but as someone said the class is balanced for spvp, and as long as they are doing well in that realm i think your SOL for getting any love. And lets not even mention your mantra’s and signet options :<.

DirtyBird.6093:

This is pretty much the truth. To all those cool kids saying they’re the bomb by being the baddest mesmer out there, good for you. I command, and have all 8 characters at 80 and know how to play them well. Mesmers really are left as a commander’s batman utility belt at the moment. Granted, a skilled mesmer is invaluable, but in current meta of zerg fights, a skilled mesmer is one who knows when to veil properly, and knows where to be to place those crucial portals. Its not that mesmers are bad par say, its that guardians, necros, eles, warriors are much much better.

I agree with this statement… however, as a counterpoint IMHO, out of your list of guardians, necros, eles, warriors, etc, mesmers are really the main class who can single handedly turn the tide of a ZvZ encounter. A well placed portal, or veil juke, or null field to strip stability is priceless. We’re depended on for our utilities because our utilities bring that much to the fight.

To the folks who want/need to tag tons of ppl or see big damage numbers spamming your screen, roll a warrior/ele/necro/etc. For me, the thing is knowing that there’s a good chance that my guild group will win most if not all of our encounters in large part because I play well and give our entire group a huge advantage. Having a strategic contribution to a fight is (again IMHO) tons more important than some big AOE numbers.

@overkill i am talking about larger scales fights.. and mean team oriented groups callings stuns shouts regroups banners waterfields tw… etc etc.. and try to go close to melee train to get some buff to spread that probably where u dont need to share any boons except stabilitys.. with your squish that probably.. anyway still its some op compare to other things..

@dirtybird indeed its cuz of anet teams upskillnes.. :P they should balance things with their modes topics..

@dhamyr.. so would u take more than 2 mesmers in your group rather than guardians wars eles necros.. thats the point i would like see that change..

Azo.5860:

@dhamyr.. so would u take more than 2 mesmers in your group rather than guardians wars eles necros.. thats the point i would like see that change..

Nope, I wouldn’t take a bunch of mesmers. However, I would much rather BE a mesmer that single handedly makes a difference in a fight than one of the many warriors/guardians/whatever that have to run in the zergball. A warrior alone doesn’t make much of an impact (like a mesmer does), you need a group of them – a hammer train with one hammer isn’t all that scary. To me, that’s an important distinction.

Beyond veil, mesmers don’t really contribute much in my experience. Fights move too quickly so null field will pulse once if you’re lucky (plus boons are constantly reapplied, so… meh), and it’s too easy to move out of time warp as well (plus it’s on almost a 3 minute cooldown). On the other hand, warriors can provide condition cleansing with warhorn, immobilise with sword burst skill, AOE stun with hammer burst skill, two sources of knockback from hammer, weakness and cripple from hammer too. Guardians can pull with greatsword, buff might with empower, block enemies with ring/line of warding, blast fields with their hammer and easy access to stability with stand your ground and even hallowed ground. Blasted light fields also offer retaliation which is great at making it so enemies can’t camp range too often (3 ticks from greatsword auto of 300 damage ret does add up, especially if you’re shooting through guys all with ret).

Used my warrior today in WvW and felt a hell of a lot more useful than my mesmer.

yeah its kinda sad that my lvl 30 guardian survives longer in a zerg than my lvl 80 full exotic(ascended trinkets) mesmer. a lot of mesmers i know switched either to warrior or necro because they wanna fight, tag and move away from veil/portal botting.

colesy.8490:

On the other hand, warriors can provide condition cleansing with warhorn, immobilise with sword burst skill, AOE stun with hammer burst skill, two sources of knockback from hammer, weakness and cripple from hammer too. Guardians can pull with greatsword, buff might with empower, block enemies with ring/line of warding, blast fields with their hammer and easy access to stability with stand your ground and even hallowed ground. Blasted light fields also offer retaliation which is great at making it so enemies can’t camp range too often (3 ticks from greatsword auto of 300 damage ret does add up, especially if you’re shooting through guys all with ret).

Not sure if warriors/guards can boonstrip, but between nullfield (and I disagree on it not being useful in ZvZ, that’s exactly where I think it’s most useful) and boon ripping shatters, AOE boon stripping is pretty easy on a mesmer. With an adversary group with stability, just about everything offensively you mentioned on warrior/guard is pretty much useless – meaning the boon ripping becomes pretty important.

I’m not saying that warriors and guards are bad by any stretch (that would be just silly). What I am saying is that mesmers bring quite a bit to the fight that makes a real difference.

To each their own, I suppose.

Second on null field, use it at the point impact between the zergs, and watch all your guys wrapped in beautiful purple spheres, be nigh invincible, and trample through the boon staved enemy like a fully loaded freight train. Stagger the fields to keep chaos armor up as long as possible. The visual effect of a field of purple bubbles are extremely demoralizing to enemy zerglings, and the actual effects, while hard to see (and therefore hard to gauge by enemy commanders), are extremely potent. You just need a few seconds of this for the enemy to start retreating (or die, the side with chaos armor will always last longer), and once the retreating begins, so does the fail cascade. With that unstrippable effect alone, one mesmer can still turn the tides for a zerg vs zerg.

If you want to tag, just make sure chaos storm hits at least a few enemies, and either izerker a clump of red tags, or join the melee train with a sword. The sheer amount of auto attacks flying around means chaos armor performance will be at peak. You just won’t die if chaos armor is up, unless the odds are extremely stacked against you.

Null field can be great for all Mesmer specs in all types of fights since what it primarily does is not reliant on any sort of stat scaling or specific build to be useful. (the glamour recharge trait however is nice especially if you are portal duty a lot anyways)

You’d be surprised at the number of people that do not seem to clue in that fighting in the purple swirly place = bad, even if they do see it.

The Chaos armor procs off of the ethereal field are just a bonus at that point. A delicious one soaked in zergling tears.

Heinel.6548:

Second on null field, use it at the point impact between the zergs, and watch all your guys wrapped in beautiful purple spheres, be nigh invincible, and trample through the boon staved enemy like a fully loaded freight train. Stagger the fields to keep chaos armor up as long as possible. The visual effect of a field of purple bubbles are extremely demoralizing to enemy zerglings, and the actual effects, while hard to see (and therefore hard to gauge by enemy commanders), are extremely potent. You just need a few seconds of this for the enemy to start retreating (or die, the side with chaos armor will always last longer), and once the retreating begins, so does the fail cascade. With that unstrippable effect alone, one mesmer can still turn the tides for a zerg vs zerg.

If you want to tag, just make sure chaos storm hits at least a few enemies, and either izerker a clump of red tags, or join the melee train with a sword. The sheer amount of auto attacks flying around means chaos armor performance will be at peak. You just won’t die if chaos armor is up, unless the odds are extremely stacked against you.

You’re really blowing the importance of null field out of proportion. It’s a tiny AoE that just gets ran past (even time warp gets ran past) in fights between organised enemies, and pug ZvZ is normally just two sides crashing in to each other with a ton of immediate downed states because people can’t dodge, aren’t geared properly and sit in static.

Chaos armour does a whopping jack all too, any decent commander doesn’t want ethereal fields because they can’t be blasted for burst heal, might stacking or retaliation which are actual relevant effects rather than “you might get this, you might get that, you might apply this condition”.

I would much rather 3 stacks of might for 20 seconds from blasted fire field rather than “well I might get protection for (is it 5 seconds? not sure) a few seconds … but I might get something useless”.

Then there’s the fact that warriors and guardians have everything besides their elites on low cooldown (and battle standard res and tome burst heal is a hell of a lot more useful for long fights) because their actual weapon skills just have spades and spades of usefulness (warhorn weakness application, condi cleanse, swiftness, empower for 12 stacks of might, line of warding, symbol of swiftness for retaliation blast), and then you get their actual utility skills, where a guard can just spam hold the line, stand your ground, hallowed ground. Warrior can spam shake it off, for great justice and then the’ve got easy access to stability with dolyak signet and balanced stance. So those two classes hit all of the crucial boons, regen and prot for damage mitigation, stability to prevent knockdown or stun, retaliation to discourage spamming attacks. On top of this they can both blast water, light and fire fields, and the guard can provide their own light and fire fields to blast.

You just can’t match the usefulness of heavy classes, it’s why the top guilds stack them and roll over everyone with pain trains.

This week in WvW, ran into an opponents guild that ran nothing but Guardians and Warriors (about 15+ total). They destroyed their enemies with their hammers.

Xavi.6591:

This week in WvW, ran into an opponents guild that ran nothing but Guardians and Warriors (about 15+ total). They destroyed their enemies with their hammers.

They’d better hope they destroy their opponents quickly – without water fields, their sustain is going to be pretty bad. Personally, I’d love to run into a group like this with our comp’ed guild group – it’d be farming time. ;-)

colesy.8490:

It gets ran past

That is the point. You get on it for a split second to blast finish, then you move off it so you can continue to blast water and fire fields.

Chaos armour doesn’t give good boons.

You’re in for the blind and retal spam, not the other stuff.

Heavy class blah blah

Who said we are skipping the heavies? in fact we need them to do the blast finishers.

Learn to play.