Guild Wars 2

Two things amazes me.

1 – That some ppl have to go al elitistic 2you al noob, giving my class a bad name" just cause thye not like to play abuild. I rather sure there are both newbie mesmer and some rather good mesmers who play PU. Just cause they play a sertan build its not = bad player.

2 – Why do so many ppl do PU build = Condi . Atm I find alot of ppl who experement with different setups of PU both power, condi and hybrid. Seen 0-20-30-0-20, 10-20-30-10-0, 5-15-30-10-10, etc al played by both new and experienced players.

/Osicat

Jackums.3496:

Narsil.6579:

Jackums.3496:

There are certainly ways to counter PU Mesmers, and builds that focus on PU are pretty much solely specific to WvW roaming (stealth prevents point capture in sPvP, and there’s no need for PU’s defense and low DPS in PvE), but it’s blatantly over-powered for a single trait, from a balance perspective. No good PU Mesmer will lose to any other build of any other profession in a duel. They simply won’t. The only even match-up would be a mirror match. That’s imbalance, and nothing like that should exist in the game, even if it’s only a niche build specific to one aspect of one game mode.

Ergo, yes, I believe a nerf is necessary. Though it’s not high priority given there are far more prominent issues with profession balance at this point (Eles being a non-factor in sPvP, Warriors being a primary factor everywhere, etc).

Though a lack of objectivity can be expected given this is the Mesmer forum.

No good PU mesmer will ever lose to another class in a duel? you sure about that? and by PU do you mean the condition builds or the hybrid , or the bleed stacking GS pistol / sword?
I’ll let you in on a little information, the current direction in which classes are moving, thieve will dominate over mesmer, I been testing PU recently, from varying builds and runes, and perplexity condi thieve pistol pistol with dagger pistol perma stealth, can outheal, out evade and out condi mesmers as is, atm i have been more successful with shatter reflect builds, but given where the nerfs are gonna happen, it doesn’t look too bright for us atm. some warrior classes for example GS Axe mace or Axe shield can instagib you and negate condi damage from melandru + lemongrass (-40 and -16 or so stun) + cleansing ire, dogged march, and on top of that warrior’s spirit (25% speed boost on trait). I can go on and on, but mesmer as is, is starting to shine less and less. Other classes , even guards are or will catch up. There is some eles who have beat me while I was using PU , only way I beat them in the end was to resort to using perplexity blackwater combo build, and I hate staff torch sceptre because outside of a 1v1 , you can easily tun away from it, only a fool would auto attack with confusion and torment stacking, yes PU condition is strong, but it is rather gimmicky and in a true sense really slow if your target knows what they are doing.

By PU I’m generally referring to condi, though phantasm variants are similarly powerful.

I’d like to know what Ele build beat you, because that’s an extremely unbelievable scenario. I main a Mesmer and the Ele is my secondary, and there’s no build or situation in which I would ever lose a 1v1 to an Elementalist whilst running a PU build, assuming an even fight. I also find it hard to believe that a good PU Mesmer would lose to a Warrior, particular the spec you detailed above. That’s pretty much a pure survivability spec, and its damage would be negligible for a PU Mesmer with such high up-time of protection/regen/aegis. The only build you mentioned above that I’d give any substantial chance of victory against a good PU Mesmer in an even fight is the Perplexity Thief spec, though it’s very situational and said Thief builds are not a sure counter to PU Mesmers.

That brings us to a single build with a noteworthy chance of defeating a good PU Mesmer, and nothing should be that difficult to defeat, with such a high survivability to damage ratio. Even Warriors in their current state have plenty of counters.

But like I said, there are more prominent issues that require attention right now, and PU Mesmers aren’t an issue in sPvP and they do not contribute much to WvW in terms of the zerg scene. However, the trait itself is too powerful and requires revision, eventually.

There is this ele named Winter he used to be from HoD, he beat me using a staff or focus dagger something that had a ton of cc, while a lot of healing skills, usually would destroy my phantasms, and then would put up a gust ( the reflection projectile). Eventually he would regen a ton and would negate most of my damage, It took a full on perplexity torch staff build to beat him and it was from a mistake he did. I tried phantasm , hybrids, but his regen ability was way more then I could do. As for the warrior, it was a build I had not seen before prior to the past buffs to classes. He could run away from me and come back and crit for 14k on eviscerate, my conditions wouldn’t do too much on him. In the end I started playing with more aggressive builds to beat that build.t

Osicat.4139:

Two things amazes me.

1 – That some ppl have to go al elitistic 2you al noob, giving my class a bad name" just cause thye not like to play abuild. I rather sure there are both newbie mesmer and some rather good mesmers who play PU. Just cause they play a sertan build its not = bad player.

2 – Why do so many ppl do PU build = Condi . Atm I find alot of ppl who experement with different setups of PU both power, condi and hybrid. Seen 0-20-30-0-20, 10-20-30-10-0, 5-15-30-10-10, etc al played by both new and experienced players.

/Osicat

Ty Osi I used ot play some of your shatter builds, but that is so true, PU does not equate condi right off the bat, rather there are so many variations: The 50% condition duration -40 % condition duration hybrid power crit build , the 100% condition duraiton build. The GS pistol sword bleeds stack build. The Sword torch pistol sceptre vulnerability stacking semi shatter hybrid (hidden flame opener). There is also the 30 10 30 troll interrupt build which can be PU or CI, Confounding suggestions paired with Halting strike on top of Chaotic interruptions or PU for survibavility (sort of a weak build but i was bored). The only reason PU can equate condi though tbh, is the 10% boost from 25 in chaos and the lack of direct phantasm or illusion damage if not traited for.

WhiteRose.6934:

Malakin.2809:

Please show us this more viable builds you are talking about instead of criticizing PU and the people that use it.

So all those players that used other builds before the PU buff are not using PU now because their old builds are viable and more fun right?

The builds I use, all for wvw roaming either solo or in small groups:

(edited)

Also I have no idea what the second question you asked meant. If you’re asking if players don’t use PU then yes, shockingly enough, we exist. Also all of the above mentioned builds have been used to beat PU mesmers in wvw while roaming, so either I’m just really amazing or I’m right to be critical of people who haven’t bothered to fully learn the class beyond PU.

Hint: It’s both Feel free to try them out, I would love to have some better fights to look forward to.

The question is because you said this:

WhiteRose.6934:

This is why PU is a crutch. Players do well with it, think it’s because they’re a good mesmer so they try something else and fail. “Well PU is our only viable option.”

You are saying that players who see other builds not viable and use PU are all bad players that don’t have skill to play other builds. Why are you assuming that? You are even implying that PU mesmers never play with non PU builds.

WhiteRose.6934:

Also all of the above mentioned builds have been used to beat PU mesmers in wvw while roaming, so either I’m just really amazing or I’m right to be critical of people who haven’t bothered to fully learn the class beyond PU.

So your logic is “I beat PU mesmers” so “PU is OP and PU mesmers are bad players”. Very weird logic.

Also how are your “more viable builds” are actually more viable? What do you do when your illusions die to AOE so fast that you can’t use them? How do you deal with backstabbing thieves? How do you deal with conditions?

This thread is ridiculous. It’s plain and simple obvious that mesmers have always been powerful and PU is currently OP.

PU allows mesmers to have increase stealth (a powerful mechanic in pvp), allows for perma protection and regen, and allows for as much or more blocks than guardians. Combined with other mesmers abilities it gives them every single mechanic the game has. They can have sustained and continuous condi pressure (and every condi in the game), or high sustained Direct damage with range, 4-5 options of stealth, teleports, invulnerability, CC, immobilize, high self regen, protection, plenty of stun breaks, fight diversion (clones, defensive tactic), boon hate, blocks, and blinds. Some great players could make a good build around just a few of those mechanics or even just one. But mesmers get them all at once. One slight weakness is condition cleansing, but that is the only thing. This is the biggest wide open secret in the game; PU mesmers are over powered. And of course there will be people (most likely people that play PU mesmers) that will defend PU till the end because they don’t want their power taken away.

I have a mesmer friend that played a PU build in wvw and I’ve seen him fight entire groups of theives, small guild groups, anything that he has come across and win or at least survive with ease. Granted, his skill level is in the top 1-5% of anyone that plays this game, but that just shows the full potential of how nasty PU can be. Also, I’ve logged plenty of hours in wvw on every class with several different builds. I know exactly what every class and build in the game brings to the table, and there is just no way to effectively fight a good PU mesmer unless you completely build yourself to fight them (or use a equally cheese OP build aka warrior). In which you severely nerf yourself against every other encounter you come across. I have no reason to favor one class over another, and I’m simply stating in this post that PU is too powerful from an unbiased but experienced player.

I do want to note, arguing that other mesmer builds have gotten nerfed does not change the fact that PU is too powerful. Anet needs to just accept they need to rework a lot of things for their precious mesmers. Also, skill obviously has its affect in this argument. A bad PU mesmer that can’t combo skills and time dodges/stealth or offensive bursts will still be killed by any other class that is played by a good player that can do those things. Thats one of the beautiful things about this game. Therefor we cannot include the percentage of bad mesmers into this argument, as they are irrelevant and show no potential of how OP PU is.

Azgarn.2145:

This thread is ridiculous. It’s plain and simple obvious that mesmers have always been powerful and PU is currently OP.

chuckles

Azgarn.2145:

PU allows mesmers to have every single mechanic the game has.

chuckles more

Pyroatheist.9031:

Azgarn.2145:

This thread is ridiculous. It’s plain and simple obvious that mesmers have always been powerful and PU is currently OP.

chuckles

Azgarn.2145:

PU allows mesmers to have every single mechanic the game has.

chuckles more

He is the type of person that makes me cry everytim I wanna be able to play my mesmer and everyone shoots me down , cus mesmer OP, takes no skill, w.e. build I play is easy mode, and mesmers are either phant easy mode, PU easy mode, too bunker, or clone spam is not skill either… in the end , everyone tells me to pick up a ele or guardian, a real class…

Azgarn.2145:

This thread is ridiculous. It’s plain and simple obvious that mesmers have always been powerful and PU is currently OP.

PU allows mesmers to have every single mechanic the game has. They can have sustained and continuous condi pressure (and every condi in the game), or high sustained Direct damage with range, 4-5 options of stealth, teleports, invulnerability, CC, immobilize, high self regen, protection, plenty of stun breaks, fight diversion (clones, defensive tactic), boon hate, blocks, and blinds. Some great players could make a good build around just a few of those mechanics or even just one. But mesmers get them all at once. One slight weakness is condition cleansing, but that is the only thing. This is the biggest wide open secret in the game; PU mesmers are over powered. And of course there will be people (most likely people that play PU mesmers) that will defend PU till the end because they don’t want their power taken away.

I have a mesmer friend that played a PU build in wvw and I’ve seen him fight entire groups of theives, small guild groups, anything that he has come across and win or at least survive with ease. Granted, his skill level is in the top 1-5% of anyone that plays this game, but that just shows the full potential of how nasty PU can be. Also, I’ve logged plenty of hours in wvw on every class with several different builds. I know exactly what every class and build in the game brings to the table, and there is just no way to effectively fight a good PU mesmer unless you completely build yourself to fight them (or use a equally cheese OP build aka warrior). In which you severely nerf yourself against every other encounter you come across. I have no reason to favor one class over another, and I’m simply stating in this post that PU is too powerful from an unbiased but experienced player.

I do want to note, arguing that other mesmer builds have gotten nerfed does not change the fact that PU is too powerful. Anet needs to just accept they need to rework a lot of things for their precious mesmers. Also, skill obviously has its affect in this argument. A bad PU mesmer that can’t combo skills and time dodges/stealth or offensive bursts will still be killed by any other class that is played by a good player that can do those things. Thats one of the beautiful things about this game. Therefor we cannot include the percentage of bad mesmers into this argument, as they are irrelevant and show no potential of how OP PU is.

I’m sure you’ve played mesmer extensively so you already know that all of the neat features you mentioned can’t all be utilized at the same time. But build up the class that has no real identity in pvp because we lack mobility, reliable burst, or desirable utilities (besides portal every once in a while), please, it makes me feel nice.

Also you say we can’t include the percentage of bad mesmers into the argument, but what about just the percentage of bad players? People who can’t even begin to comprehend how to fight mesmers let alone PU mesmers. These kinds of people are all over the place (especially in WvW) which makes whatever you or your friend do with PU irrelevant unless you have proof the players are good. At least if we’re going with what you’re saying. Which I agree, skills should be balanced according to the highest level of play, but you can’t match a great player with even a mediocre one and expect the one of lesser skill not to get destroyed no matter what build/spec the better player is running.

It’s a strong trait that gives mesmer good defensive capabilities. That’s it.

Narsil.6579:

He is the type of person that makes me cry everytim I wanna be able to play my mesmer and everyone shoots me down , cus mesmer OP, takes no skill, w.e. build I play is easy mode, and mesmers are either phant easy mode, PU easy mode, too bunker, or clone spam is not skill either… in the end , everyone tells me to pick up a ele or guardian, a real class…

I don’t think I mentioned anything about it not taking skill to play mesmer, nor anything about other builds being easymode, or anything about phantasms, clone spamming, or telling you to play another class. Nor was I implying that anyone that plays a PU build is trash easymoder, or that Anet should nerf PU to the point that nobody uses it. Or any other ignorant assumptions you want to come up with. /shrug

I was exclusively talking about Prismatic Understanding and how it is just too powerful. If you want to belittle my post, at least reference something I actually mentioned or implied.

Azgarn.2145:

Narsil.6579:

He is the type of person that makes me cry everytim I wanna be able to play my mesmer and everyone shoots me down , cus mesmer OP, takes no skill, w.e. build I play is easy mode, and mesmers are either phant easy mode, PU easy mode, too bunker, or clone spam is not skill either… in the end , everyone tells me to pick up a ele or guardian, a real class…

I don’t think I mentioned anything about it not taking skill to play mesmer, nor anything about other builds being easymode, or anything about phantasms, clone spamming, or telling you to play another class. Nor was I implying that anyone that plays a PU build is trash easymoder, or that Anet should nerf PU to the point that nobody uses it. Or any other ignorant assumptions you want to come up with. /shrug

I was exclusively talking about Prismatic Understanding and how it is just too powerful. If you want to belittle my post, at least reference something I actually mentioned or implied.

Although you didn’t say that mesmer is easy mode, everyone else who uses the (insert flavor of the month, trait, build, rune) usually uses that argument to say that therefore mesmer is an easy mode class. I have taught people how to play some builds, they tell me it is easy, yet they don’t sustain long after a while and complain that it the class is hard. I wouldn’t say PU is OP, but I would say that if they removed the aegis or protection I wouldn’t mind. Even so PU is only good atm, because conditions are stupid and PU is a way to negate most of that damage. I didn’t mean you specifically but those who use your argument to validate their opinion on why mesmer is easy.

Also I would gladly get rid of PU if Anet gave mesmers our own cleansing ire, dogged march and warrior spirit traits: (conditions last less, can not be immobed or rooted as much, and 25% speed boost on top) i would gladly give up stealth for that.

Narsil.6579:

Azgarn.2145:

Narsil.6579:

He is the type of person that makes me cry everytim I wanna be able to play my mesmer and everyone shoots me down , cus mesmer OP, takes no skill, w.e. build I play is easy mode, and mesmers are either phant easy mode, PU easy mode, too bunker, or clone spam is not skill either… in the end , everyone tells me to pick up a ele or guardian, a real class…

I don’t think I mentioned anything about it not taking skill to play mesmer, nor anything about other builds being easymode, or anything about phantasms, clone spamming, or telling you to play another class. Nor was I implying that anyone that plays a PU build is trash easymoder, or that Anet should nerf PU to the point that nobody uses it. Or any other ignorant assumptions you want to come up with. /shrug

I was exclusively talking about Prismatic Understanding and how it is just too powerful. If you want to belittle my post, at least reference something I actually mentioned or implied.

Although you didn’t say that mesmer is easy mode, everyone else who uses the (insert flavor of the month, trait, build, rune) usually uses that argument to say that therefore mesmer is an easy mode class. I have taught people how to play some builds, they tell me it is easy, yet they don’t sustain long after a while and complain that it the class is hard. I wouldn’t say PU is OP, but I would say that if they removed the aegis or protection I wouldn’t mind. Even so PU is only good atm, because conditions are stupid and PU is a way to negate most of that damage. I didn’t mean you specifically but those who use your argument to validate their opinion on why mesmer is easy.

There are a lot of dumb, ignorant people in this world that use other people arguments to enforce their opinions. But that doesn’t decrease the validity of those who are capable to make the argument on their own, and you should not assume outside of the included context of ones argument. There are a lot of reasons a build might be construed as difficult to play. Skill level, play style, time invested in learning the build, gear quality, poor gear combination, etc. That is why I mentioned that you can’t include those people in the argument. Basically what it boils down to is that the boons that are given from PU are extremely powerful and too easily accessed in combination with everything else mesmers have. The interval needs increased duration and aegis needs removed or changed in the skill. I would be happy with subtle changes like that. And yes, “subtle” in this context is my opinion.

Narsil.6579:

Also I would gladly get rid of PU if Anet gave mesmers our own cleansing ire, dogged march and warrior spirit traits: (conditions last less, can not be immobed or rooted as much, and 25% speed boost on top) i would gladly give up stealth for that.

I would prefer if Anet added abilities in place of those things that were more actively controlled than passive. That way things don’t keep floating in the direction of mechanicless immunities like warriors with berserker stance, diamond skin, or anything else similar. Complete immunities don’t encourage any type of good pvp.

Azgarn.2145:

Narsil.6579:

Also I would gladly get rid of PU if Anet gave mesmers our own cleansing ire, dogged march and warrior spirit traits: (conditions last less, can not be immobed or rooted as much, and 25% speed boost on top) i would gladly give up stealth for that.

I would prefer if Anet added abilities in place of those things that were more actively controlled than passive. That way things don’t keep floating in the direction of mechanicless immunities like warriors with berserker stance, diamond skin, or anything else similar. Complete immunities don’t encourage any type of good pvp.

You hit the nail in the head, I have tried to run lockdown builds, shatter, etc. In the end I mainly die to the passive immune builds or end in a never ending stalemate. Thieves running perma stealth with condition or bow with some weird pistol perma evade stealth build, warriors with high crit damage and run away speed capabilities healing full with signet, rangers running some evade build with heavy condi pets, and guardians with the everlasting perma regen retal combos and with the new heal can tank a ton of damage and get healed right back up, at this point I don’t know what to expect yet in the march 18 patch. Mesmer isn’t the only class with passive easy gameplay, every other class has one , but mesmer takes most of the flak for it and it kittens me off.

People like WhiteRose only wanna harp on PU mesmers because they enjoy a playstyle that requires less aggression and more caution, awareness, timing, and strategy. That’s okay.

What’s not okay is being an elitist jag and telling other players they’re bad at a class because they play anything that has to do with a trait they feel so personally offended by. I started playing GW2 a few weeks ago and mesmer was my first toon. I went down the first builds I saw as soon as I hit level 80—shatter mesmer and it frustrated me more often than not to the point where I wanted to give up several times. Sometimes I just feel like running into a group and smacking a few people around but, with this build, I found myself dying more often than not because there’s almost no survivability for that liberal of a playstyle. PU offers a way out to players who don’t always wanna be so tactical about everything.

I’m better at shattering now and I haven’t tried the PU build yet but it’s disgusting to say that one way is right and the other way is wrong. There’s so much to experiment with and all people wanna do is limit others. As soon as people see something that’s difficult for them to counter, they cry “OP!” Play the way you want to and see what’s most fun. Don’t let people on their high horses tell you how to play. Find a way that works for you then kick them off that horse

Joonks.7501:

What a condescending point of view. You can make the “crutch” argument for any defensive ability or trait. PU really only shines in duels and WvW roaming, 90% of which is dominated by thieves and warriors. I happen to enjoy duels and roaming. Sorry, but I don’t feel like my “gw2 honor” has been compromised when I’m now able to compete with my opponents. When I play PvE, PvP or zerg WvW I don’t trait PU because it’s not useful for those game modes. If it makes you feel better about yourself to play without PU then go for it, but it’s a pretty arrogant mindset to assume PU users are inferior players. PU is a tool to be used, look at osicat – he plays PU, has superior map awareness, understands smart dodging, links weapon skills together effectively, shatters. How can you argue that he’s not using the profession to its fullest potential?

And all this talk about the glory days of when people had respect for mesmers because they played builds which required skill is nonsense. Players of other professions have always complained about mesmers because they’re inherently confusing to fight against.

^This.

Both PU and Shatter is viable, and both are fun. Play what you want.

/Osicat

WhiteRose.6934:

The problem isn’t that other builds aren’t more viable. It’s that other builds aren’t as easy as PU.

Shatter is perfectly viable. Condition builds without PU are viable. The “problem” is that it’s harder and more risky to roam with this way, and people don’t like that. Players want everything handed to them easy mode, and it seems the new mesmer community is quickly going down that same mindset route.

This is why PU is a crutch. Players do well with it, think it’s because they’re a good mesmer so they try something else and fail. “Well PU is our only viable option.”

No. It’s because while you’re using a build that allows you to ignore half of the classes mechanics, and ignore basic game mechanics (map awareness, smart dodging), you progressively become more and more dependent on the build that allows you to do all of this and can’t be bothered to learn anything else.

This is why I’ve said in every thread about this topic: The type of players that this build has spawned are embarrassing to me and if/when the nerf happens I’ll be more than happy to see them drop the class.

I can see the threads now: “PU build nerf! Mesmer destroyed can’t possibly play moving to warrior.”

could not have said it better myself. only truly skilled Mesmers with a good understanding of balance thinks this way.

Narsil.6579:

Azgarn.2145:

Narsil.6579:

Also I would gladly get rid of PU if Anet gave mesmers our own cleansing ire, dogged march and warrior spirit traits: (conditions last less, can not be immobed or rooted as much, and 25% speed boost on top) i would gladly give up stealth for that.

I would prefer if Anet added abilities in place of those things that were more actively controlled than passive. That way things don’t keep floating in the direction of mechanicless immunities like warriors with berserker stance, diamond skin, or anything else similar. Complete immunities don’t encourage any type of good pvp.

You hit the nail in the head, I have tried to run lockdown builds, shatter, etc. In the end I mainly die to the passive immune builds or end in a never ending stalemate. Thieves running perma stealth with condition or bow with some weird pistol perma evade stealth build, warriors with high crit damage and run away speed capabilities healing full with signet, rangers running some evade build with heavy condi pets, and guardians with the everlasting perma regen retal combos and with the new heal can tank a ton of damage and get healed right back up, at this point I don’t know what to expect yet in the march 18 patch. Mesmer isn’t the only class with passive easy gameplay, every other class has one , but mesmer takes most of the flak for it and it kittens me off.

the idea that if someone has or would do something means that its ok for us to do it is a very low and pathetic excuse.

yes some class’s have some pretty low builds that are op. however should we really drop down to the level of the player using it ?

just food for thought. think of how high your respect for yourself is.

I run mesmer all the time, its my main. I don’t use PU very much because it just isn’t my style.

However, I feel almost obligated to do so because of stealth spamming thieves. Every time I get into a battle with one, if i’m not also running heavy stealth, it feels like I don’t have much of a chance.

Really, i consider that more of a problem with thieves than mesmers. I’d love to actually be able to 1v1 a thief without feeling like I have to run stealth myself to do it.

I’ve recently considered running a really tanky build with phantasms, as they will auto attack thieves soon as they come out of stealth. So, I’m running tanky armor, runes of the dolyak, regen traits from both inspiration and chaos lines plus the protection trait from chaos, sigil of ether, etc. Several sources of healing and regeneration, plus heavy toughness, see if that will let me survive without having to resort to stealth too much heh

oh, and mirror of anguish. If the thief jumps on me out of stealth with CC, he can share in the pain, heh

Morfedel.4165:

However, I feel almost obligated to do so because of stealth spamming thieves. Every time I get into a battle with one, if i’m not also running heavy stealth, it feels like I don’t have much of a chance.

I honestly don’t get this. I hear this “thief perma stealth” argument all the time and it makes no sense to me. Thieves stealthing is not a problem. Thieves do 0 damage while they are in stealth. Mesmers can apply bleed stacks from clones or DPS from phantasms while they stealth. Thieves can only run and hide or try to set up a sneak attack.
Yes, backstab hurts but it’s the only trick high crit thieves have. Find ways to deal with it and they will be forced to run or have a straight fight (which they will likely lose).
And let’s not also forget the fact that stealth drops target. This is a problem with thieves because you have to find and call them when they come out of stealth. But with stealthing mesmers this becomes even harder because not only do you have to find the right target among 2-4 identical ones, you have to keep doing it every time they come out of stealth.

Oh, and please don’t start lecturing me about how easy it is to tell a mesmer apart from clones. Yes, it’s reasonably easy but:
a) hotkey targeting means possibly cycling through targets before getting the right one
b) click-targeting is unreliable, especially in groups.

all of this wastes up to several seconds where you are trying to get a target instead of doing something useful. Granted, this is not so much of a problem if you are not playing in a group, but trying to call/find target on a stealthy mesmer is generally a pain.

Morfedel.4165:

I run mesmer all the time, its my main. I don’t use PU very much because it just isn’t my style.

However, I feel almost obligated to do so because of stealth spamming thieves. Every time I get into a battle with one, if i’m not also running heavy stealth, it feels like I don’t have much of a chance.

Really, i consider that more of a problem with thieves than mesmers. I’d love to actually be able to 1v1 a thief without feeling like I have to run stealth myself to do it.

I’ve recently considered running a really tanky build with phantasms, as they will auto attack thieves soon as they come out of stealth. So, I’m running tanky armor, runes of the dolyak, regen traits from both inspiration and chaos lines plus the protection trait from chaos, sigil of ether, etc. Several sources of healing and regeneration, plus heavy toughness, see if that will let me survive without having to resort to stealth too much heh

oh, and mirror of anguish. If the thief jumps on me out of stealth with CC, he can share in the pain, heh

I simply pop an iDuellist whenever I see a theif and from then on the fight is essentially won, particularly when combined with the Duellist’s Discipline trait which is just ridiculously fantastic and is something I take over PU constantly.

To bring it back to the topic though; I do chuckle to myself when people complain about PU in various scenarios:

- The complaint often comes from a WvW standpoint which in its-self means absolutely diddly-squat, seeing as WvW is barely considered any from of legitimate ‘PvP’ – which is saying something, as sPvP is in a miserable state (although I still use it as a benchmark for any serious balance complaints)

and my personal favourite and an increasing occurence

- If an enemy team-mate in sPvP is running PU, the match is essentially a <5 vs 5 match, seeing as they have literally nothing to contribute in conquest modes which is; yes that’s right, the only mode available in PvP.

tl;dr, PU based builds don’t actually contribute any PvP scenario that matters, and furthermore playing one will only handicap yourself and make you a worse player.

Malakin.2809:

…

Never said PU was OP. Go through my post history.

I’m not here to say if PU is OP or not, ‘cause I really don’t care about that. I just think that it’s a crutch build due to how brainless it is. That’s all.

And I deal with BS thieves by dodging, evading with BF, or stealth. Generally they’re dead before they get the chance.
AoE doesn’t bother my illusions since I fight up close and personal to make use of Illusionary Persona. I don’t try and shatter clones from 1200 range like you seem to assume I have to. It’s called lining them up properly.
With conditions I wait them out honestly, since I rarely get hit in the first place. I don’t run condi removal in my roaming set ups. (Decoy, blink, portal) My entire survival is based on proper positioning and evades.
Also I run Sw/T & GS, full zerker. As I said, traits are 10/20/10/0/30.

Anything else? Playing the same way for a year you kinda get good at what you do.

kylwilson.9137:

and my personal favourite and an increasing occurence

- If an enemy team-mate in sPvP is running PU, the match is essentially a <5 vs 5 match, seeing as they have literally nothing to contribute in conquest modes which is; yes that’s right, the only mode available in PvP.

Eh, that’s not really accurate. A well played PU build can easily carry matches/swing games. Playing PU conditions almost exclusively is how I maintained top 200 leaderboards back when I still did tournaments.

Also out of curiosity, what exactly is it about the pistol cd trait that you find so fantastic? It’s just a range increaser and a cd reduction, nice for sure but nothing to call home about…

There are so many idiots in this thread complaining about players and insulting each other for using skills or whatever… its completely useless and not constructive at all. The thread and the issue is Prismatic Understanding. People can use PU for whatever reason they want, but the issue isnt going to be changed or fixed by calling each other noobs. Focus on the trait and the game mechanics. What the hell is wrong with you people? Anet needs helpful debate on the skills and builds, not the how dumb the people are that play this game.

calavel.6249:

Morfedel.4165:

However, I feel almost obligated to do so because of stealth spamming thieves. Every time I get into a battle with one, if i’m not also running heavy stealth, it feels like I don’t have much of a chance.

I honestly don’t get this. I hear this “thief perma stealth” argument all the time and it makes no sense to me. Thieves stealthing is not a problem. Thieves do 0 damage while they are in stealth. Mesmers can apply bleed stacks from clones or DPS from phantasms while they stealth. Thieves can only run and hide or try to set up a sneak attack.
Yes, backstab hurts but it’s the only trick high crit thieves have. Find ways to deal with it and they will be forced to run or have a straight fight (which they will likely lose).
And let’s not also forget the fact that stealth drops target. This is a problem with thieves because you have to find and call them when they come out of stealth. But with stealthing mesmers this becomes even harder because not only do you have to find the right target among 2-4 identical ones, you have to keep doing it every time they come out of stealth.

Oh, and please don’t start lecturing me about how easy it is to tell a mesmer apart from clones. Yes, it’s reasonably easy but:
a) hotkey targeting means possibly cycling through targets before getting the right one
b) click-targeting is unreliable, especially in groups.

all of this wastes up to several seconds where you are trying to get a target instead of doing something useful. Granted, this is not so much of a problem if you are not playing in a group, but trying to call/find target on a stealthy mesmer is generally a pain.

When a thief can pop out of stealth, hit you for half your health and immediately restealth, heal up, come out and finish the job, yeah it is a problem.

And while in stealth they have time to identify which is the real one very easily.

kylwilson.9137:

Morfedel.4165:

I run mesmer all the time, its my main. I don’t use PU very much because it just isn’t my style.

However, I feel almost obligated to do so because of stealth spamming thieves. Every time I get into a battle with one, if i’m not also running heavy stealth, it feels like I don’t have much of a chance.

Really, i consider that more of a problem with thieves than mesmers. I’d love to actually be able to 1v1 a thief without feeling like I have to run stealth myself to do it.

I’ve recently considered running a really tanky build with phantasms, as they will auto attack thieves soon as they come out of stealth. So, I’m running tanky armor, runes of the dolyak, regen traits from both inspiration and chaos lines plus the protection trait from chaos, sigil of ether, etc. Several sources of healing and regeneration, plus heavy toughness, see if that will let me survive without having to resort to stealth too much heh

oh, and mirror of anguish. If the thief jumps on me out of stealth with CC, he can share in the pain, heh

I simply pop an iDuellist whenever I see a theif and from then on the fight is essentially won, particularly when combined with the Duellist’s Discipline trait which is just ridiculously fantastic and is something I take over PU constantly.

To bring it back to the topic though; I do chuckle to myself when people complain about PU in various scenarios:

- The complaint often comes from a WvW standpoint which in its-self means absolutely diddly-squat, seeing as WvW is barely considered any from of legitimate ‘PvP’ – which is saying something, as sPvP is in a miserable state (although I still use it as a benchmark for any serious balance complaints)

and my personal favourite and an increasing occurence

- If an enemy team-mate in sPvP is running PU, the match is essentially a <5 vs 5 match, seeing as they have literally nothing to contribute in conquest modes which is; yes that’s right, the only mode available in PvP.

tl;dr, PU based builds don’t actually contribute any PvP scenario that matters, and furthermore playing one will only handicap yourself and make you a worse player.

Honestly, I’m not sure iduelist TRAIT is necessary against a thief. If he is stealthing a lot, you dont need the faster recharge time, and if you stay near your phantasmal duelists you dont need the extra range either heh

EDITED to include I was referring to the trait. Oops!

Chaos.3579:

WhiteRose.6934:

The problem isn’t that other builds aren’t more viable. It’s that other builds aren’t as easy as PU.

Shatter is perfectly viable. Condition builds without PU are viable. The “problem” is that it’s harder and more risky to roam with this way, and people don’t like that. Players want everything handed to them easy mode, and it seems the new mesmer community is quickly going down that same mindset route.

This is why PU is a crutch. Players do well with it, think it’s because they’re a good mesmer so they try something else and fail. “Well PU is our only viable option.”

No. It’s because while you’re using a build that allows you to ignore half of the classes mechanics, and ignore basic game mechanics (map awareness, smart dodging), you progressively become more and more dependent on the build that allows you to do all of this and can’t be bothered to learn anything else.

This is why I’ve said in every thread about this topic: The type of players that this build has spawned are embarrassing to me and if/when the nerf happens I’ll be more than happy to see them drop the class.

I can see the threads now: “PU build nerf! Mesmer destroyed can’t possibly play moving to warrior.”

could not have said it better myself. only truly skilled Mesmers with a good understanding of balance thinks this way.

On the contrary. That thinking is the definition of scrub. In fact, every point of argument in there is also rhetorical. I mean, I’d love to agree with WhiteRose, but objectively there are no “problems” that exist. The only problem is a prejudice and perception by the author that arbitrarily and subjectively sees the use of PU as “bad”.

Chaos, you’re also suffering from your own prejudices and perceptions. Nothing more.

WhiteRose.6934:

Malakin.2809:

…

Never said PU was OP. Go through my post history.

I’m not here to say if PU is OP or not, ‘cause I really don’t care about that. I just think that it’s a crutch build due to how brainless it is. That’s all.

And I deal with BS thieves by dodging, evading with BF, or stealth. Generally they’re dead before they get the chance.
AoE doesn’t bother my illusions since I fight up close and personal to make use of Illusionary Persona. I don’t try and shatter clones from 1200 range like you seem to assume I have to. It’s called lining them up properly.
With conditions I wait them out honestly, since I rarely get hit in the first place. I don’t run condi removal in my roaming set ups. (Decoy, blink, portal) My entire survival is based on proper positioning and evades.
Also I run Sw/T & GS, full zerker. As I said, traits are 10/20/10/0/30.

Anything else? Playing the same way for a year you kinda get good at what you do.

AOE killing illusions has nothing to to with how far you are from your target. It happens when there is a lot of AOE (or damage in general) going on near your target. I guess you only roam and fight where there is low enemy numbers. With larger numbers it is a problem, especially if you are glass.

So your problem is really a glassy vs tanky builds. And you’re attacking the people that use PU because you hate tankier builds and PU is the most tanky trait we have. I respect and use both styles and I think both have advantages and disadvantages and how good they do also depends on the situation not only on how skillful you are. It’s very arrogant to criticize other people for not playing the way you want. This is no better than when people say glassy builds are lame because you’re just bursting people down before they can react and actually fight you.

Morfedel.4165:

When a thief can pop out of stealth, hit you for half your health and immediately restealth, heal up, come out and finish the job, yeah it is a problem.

And while in stealth they have time to identify which is the real one very easily.

5s is not immediately. It is in fact rather a long time. If you get backstabbed, then the thief gets Revealed, there is no way around this because he has to break stealth prematurely in order to backstab. Revealed is not as big a problem for a mesmer because staying in stealth has more benefits then breaking it prematurely (thus triggering Revealed).

But this is not a thief vs. mesmer 1v1 discussion. Yes, it is easier for a thief to back off and play the waiting game against a stealth mesmer. But other classes do not have this advantage, every time they lose target they have to run around and try to find the stealthed mesmer while clones pump out conditions or damage.
When a thief stealths he is effectively giving you a couple of seconds to do whatever you want (run, heal, stealth, pop prot etc.), because he needs time to set up his hit. He is also making it abundantly clear what is going to happen next. He is going to backstab you, and it is going to happen within the next 3-6 seconds because he needs to do it before his stealth runs out.
A mesmer with a heavy stealth build is constantly pressuring and applying damage even when they play defensively.

Malakin.2809:

…

We’re just going in circles at this point and it’s getting exhausting as you keep trying to put words in my mouth in an attempt to make a point. We were talking about roaming, I mentioned that earlier on. So yes, small groups or solo. That’s what people seem to need PU for after all.

And yes, I am being condescending and critical, I’m glad you’re understanding how I view the PU players. Read my post history if you need a refresher. Honestly, the fact that people are so defensive over a single build is proof enough that it has become a crutch.

Sigh… I knew this day would come eventually… where I would have to break my silence.

The Mesmer community has been in denial long enough! Prismatic Understanding IS A CRUTCH! Deceptive Evasion IS A CRUTCH!

Crutch : 1. a long stick with a crosspiece at the top, used as a support under the armpit by a lame person.

These 2 traits have been supporting our increasing reliance on Survivability

With DE being the longest running of the crutches but I digress lets focus on PU.
In the context of WvW roaming, About 6 months ago I remember my first duels with the pioneers of the PU build. They knew back then it was stupid easy to troll 2-4 players trying to play whack-a-clone while the popping in and out of stealth executing and negating attacks at the same time. Whether you tried to get them with brute force or condi they could reset with the application of stealth.

Now here we are 6 months later and many Mesmers are still clinging desperately to this trait amongst others all for the sake of survivability. You think I’m wrong? How many Mesmers continue to wrack their minds over placing 20 in dueling just to gain access to DE? Why? Because it adds a modicum of survivability to the Mesmer by target breaking. Next, PU on top of utility of our stealth mechanic which are mostly defense based, we get defensive boons to further bolster survivability. Even excrement has a modicum of nutritional value but you won’t catch me eating it!

So what happened? As other classes where buffed/defined or just better at hard countering what we offer as a profession. We remained stagnant to the point that we have to rely on cheesey gimmicks to just survive long enough to execute abilities and remain competitive.

We are now in this place for the following reasons; the Mesmer community is stagnating, and now we are choosing to perpetuate ignorance and name calling over dynamic innovation. There are 2 spheres of thought in this thread that can be summed up in a statement: "Is survival and doing anything for the sake of survival skill? Or is executing a strategy based on a balanced set traits and utilities skill?

My personal opinion on PU is that people are willing to defend a lackadaisical approach to Mesmer combat becoming no more than butterfly themed thieves. Having the audacity to laud PU as “strategy” and/or skill is laughable. Call it elitist but I dare you to post video of duel with a competent player without DE or PU let’s see how long you last.

Alas that is the current state of Mesmer call it what you will. I will still call them crutches, A-net gave us these “tools/traits” but they have to do better we have to continue to challenge them to do better even if we do not see immediate results… We need to be unified as a community, we need to be educated as a community and realize that Mesmer is not in a place where we want it.

ANet should give PU boons to IP. Like, shatter with 1 clone provides aegis, 2 clones, aegis + protection, 3 clones, aegis + protection+ regen. Now we can talk about being OP.

A girl can dream, can’t she?

Ok, ok, I’ll try PU instead ( well I already tried it, power PU builds are very good, but a bit boring to play imo. And it’s really really hard sometimes to not play it when I get farmed by armies of thieves in wvw).

WhiteRose.6934:

Malakin.2809:

…

Never said PU was OP. Go through my post history.

I’m not here to say if PU is OP or not, ‘cause I really don’t care about that. I just think that it’s a crutch build due to how brainless it is. That’s all.

And I deal with BS thieves by dodging, evading with BF, or stealth. Generally they’re dead before they get the chance.
AoE doesn’t bother my illusions since I fight up close and personal to make use of Illusionary Persona. I don’t try and shatter clones from 1200 range like you seem to assume I have to. It’s called lining them up properly.
With conditions I wait them out honestly, since I rarely get hit in the first place. I don’t run condi removal in my roaming set ups. (Decoy, blink, portal) My entire survival is based on proper positioning and evades.
Also I run Sw/T & GS, full zerker. As I said, traits are 10/20/10/0/30.

Anything else? Playing the same way for a year you kinda get good at what you do.

You use stealth? I consider that a crutch.

Revelations.3154:

SNIP

You miss the point. No one is arguing to keep the status quo, most are asking for just the opposite. Many would gladly use other things if they had the same return on investment as PU builds do. Anet has made a point of pushing the class more and more towards this trait by weakening everything around it. PU is literally our last position of high ground. Between nerfs and bugs, other builds are constant uphill battles to only get similar results. Having to fight your own mechanics into submission is not a display of skill, its a display of masochism

Some have created this code of honor that they expect everyone to adhere to but in practice there is no such thing. People will use what works, and so far Anet has made sure that the only thing that works on a reasonable amount of effort are PU builds.

There is also a false equivalence being thrown around that just taking PU means you dont know how to play or that you are of lesser status which gets us as a community nowhere when we have both thieves and warriors pointing at us to take the attention off of them. Our community has become quite toxic around this issue all due to outside pressures. In the overall scheme of the game, we are talking about a single aspect of a single game mode. Our two main rivals in this aspect have gotten us to argue amongst ourselves and against our own interests to push us out while they are still strong across the board.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Chaos.3579:

PU in terms of survivability is just as strong in dueling as it is in every other PVP apsect of the game that players can participate in. wvw, small scale fights, gvg, 1v?, roaming, ect.

Which is why we see tons of mesmers in all these aspects of pvp right? Oh wait…

Chaos.3579:

there are no counters or tactics that even half of the class’s can use to counter PU survivability,

Aside from things like boon strip or aoe?

Chaos.3579:

no way to counter disengagement potential,

PU gives no boost to disengagement potential. 1 second of stealth duration means nothing for a disengage. All disengagement potential for mesmer comes from other tools appropriately used.

Chaos.3579:

and no way to counter sustained dps potential through illusions while remaining undetectable and untargetable through a long and extended chain of stealths

Sustained dps potential through illusions? Don’t make me laugh. You’ve got at best 1 high damage phantasm (since a PU build will be using torch). It takes a second or two of dpsing to kill a phantasm from a PU build, so care to enlighten us as to where this sustained dps potential is coming from?

Chaos.3579:

thus why would someone use something thats less effective and takes more skill?

Less effective at what exactly? PU builds are horrible at active application of burst damage, PU phantasm builds are just as bad as normal phantasm builds in 1vX, they just die slower, PU builds are locked 30 points into a selfish trait line and so offer little utility to groups, where’s all this effectiveness coming from?

Chaos.3579:

so in order to preserve viable diversity among the users of the Mesmer profession this trait needs a nerf/major functionality change or we will watch as the majoirty of mesmer builds are devolved in to a meta based on utilizing the survivability staple that stealth combined with this trait provides….oops seems this has already happened.

Cute. The lack of build diversity stems from the fact that almost no mesmer builds are viable at anything currently, not from the existence of a single trait as you seem to think.

One trait/set of builds has absolutely no significance on the potential diversity of a class, arguments otherwise make absolutely no sense. Different mesmer builds are good at different things, and people choose them for those reasons. The existence of builds that are good at surviving (PU builds) has absolutely no relevance on the viability of builds that are good at aoe burst damage (shatter) or aoe condition damage (glamour), single target damage (phantasm), lockdown (lockdown) or any others that I’m not thinking of right now. All of those builds are non-viable for separate and distinct reasons. Your attempt to conflate their non-viability with the existence of PU falls flat as a poor guise for your odd hatred of the trait.

There’s nothing wrong with the PU trait, some people just need to get over themselves.

i want to hug you. your words are perfect for these people. may you find yourself upon riches and glory. RICHES AND GLORY!!!

calavel.6249:

Morfedel.4165:

When a thief can pop out of stealth, hit you for half your health and immediately restealth, heal up, come out and finish the job, yeah it is a problem.

And while in stealth they have time to identify which is the real one very easily.

When a thief stealths he is effectively giving you a couple of seconds to do whatever you want (run, heal, stealth, pop prot etc.), because he needs time to set up his hit. He is also making it abundantly clear what is going to happen next. He is going to backstab you, and it is going to happen within the next 3-6 seconds because he needs to do it before his stealth runs out.
A mesmer with a heavy stealth build is constantly pressuring and applying damage even when they play defensively.

This isnt quite as simple and straight forward as you make it sound. Couple problems. In stealth, or just vs certain classes, thieves are faster. So running isnt an option. In fact turning and heading in a straight line is opening your back to them in an obvious way. Healing might work after the first burst, but he can do more than one backstab in the time it takes for your heal to run through it’s 30s cooldown. Procing protection isnt available to all classes/builds, at least not on demand. We all known the problem with the likes of aegis vs stealth, but the real problem is targated skills. If you have a lot of them, if you rely on them you cant use them in your so called free period you’re talking about. So, in fact, that period isnt free at all. It’s pressure the thief is applying despite the fact he’s not hitting you for the second.

Lots of boons and stealth(the most kittened implementation of stealth in any game ever lol). And the now im visible for a few seconds, now im not and everyone drops target …… now im visible for a few seconds, now im not, everyone drops target.

And as an added bonus you can summon whatever phantasms you like in stealth without breaking stealth. Plus ur piling up prot, regen, aegis.

Chorazin.4107:

Lots of boons and stealth(the most kittened implementation of stealth in any game ever lol). And the now im visible for a few seconds, now im not and everyone drops target …… now im visible for a few seconds, now im not, everyone drops target.

And as an added bonus you can summon whatever phantasms you like in stealth without breaking stealth. Plus ur piling up prot, regen, aegis.

Yes I agree mesmers have stealth and it’s disorienting to fight against.

Did you have an argument somewhere in here?

Chorazin.4107:

Lots of boons and stealth(the most kittened implementation of stealth in any game ever lol). And the now im visible for a few seconds, now im not and everyone drops target …… now im visible for a few seconds, now im not, everyone drops target.

And as an added bonus you can summon whatever phantasms you like in stealth without breaking stealth. Plus ur piling up prot, regen, aegis.

Do you even main a mesmer? first of all if you chain every stealth: torch + decoy + veil + MI, you are going to have nothing left aside from maybe blink and heal. Any phantasm? are you joking? ok if you run torch because 50% of the time it is the only condition cleanse aside from null field, or mantra (which takes some time to recharge even, can be interrupted) you are only gonna have 1 other phantasm (offensive wise) either duelist or berserker, please tell me how I can use my 1337 mesmer OP easy skills to summon a barrage of phantasms ( pro tip PU mesmers who use torch are either full condi or hybrid in which case , its easier to disengage them and run away and return back since they won’t have enough speed or burst to kill you in one shot like a true phantasm or shatter mesmer).

Last but not least if a mesmer is not using torch and using a pistol GS combo or dual sword with GS or staff, chances are he only has decoy and MI as the stealth, MI has a 90sec cd and decoy a 40 sec. If they run veil it is an added 6 secs of stealth at a penalty of null field (condi cleanse), meaning they are giving up their only vital source of condition cleanse (most of the time PU mesmers will run the 40% condition duration buff for the bleeds on critical from phantasms) in which case, condition will destroy them against a good player or 2 players being smart. Against noobs or uplvls sure they might win , but against a decent player or heavy condi classes , its way more trickier even death and most mesmers are forced to run away.

PU seems so OP but it has an internal cd for 1 sec on what can be stacked, and on top of that PU builds give up so much damage potential in exchange for the stealth 1 sec duration boost on top of the boons, outside of that, PU builds are not strong as they seem and trying to stack regen and boons by blowing off your cds is a bad idea.

Revelations.3154:

Sigh… I knew this day would come eventually… where I would have to break my silence.

The Mesmer community has been in denial long enough! Prismatic Understanding IS A CRUTCH! Deceptive Evasion IS A CRUTCH!

Crutch : 1. a long stick with a crosspiece at the top, used as a support under the armpit by a lame person.

These 2 traits have been supporting our increasing reliance on Survivability

With DE being the longest running of the crutches but I digress lets focus on PU.
In the context of WvW roaming, About 6 months ago I remember my first duels with the pioneers of the PU build. They knew back then it was stupid easy to troll 2-4 players trying to play whack-a-clone while the popping in and out of stealth executing and negating attacks at the same time. Whether you tried to get them with brute force or condi they could reset with the application of stealth.

Now here we are 6 months later and many Mesmers are still clinging desperately to this trait amongst others all for the sake of survivability. You think I’m wrong? How many Mesmers continue to wrack their minds over placing 20 in dueling just to gain access to DE? Why? Because it adds a modicum of survivability to the Mesmer by target breaking. Next, PU on top of utility of our stealth mechanic which are mostly defense based, we get defensive boons to further bolster survivability. Even excrement has a modicum of nutritional value but you won’t catch me eating it!

So what happened? As other classes where buffed/defined or just better at hard countering what we offer as a profession. We remained stagnant to the point that we have to rely on cheesey gimmicks to just survive long enough to execute abilities and remain competitive.

We are now in this place for the following reasons; the Mesmer community is stagnating, and now we are choosing to perpetuate ignorance and name calling over dynamic innovation. There are 2 spheres of thought in this thread that can be summed up in a statement: "Is survival and doing anything for the sake of survival skill? Or is executing a strategy based on a balanced set traits and utilities skill?

My personal opinion on PU is that people are willing to defend a lackadaisical approach to Mesmer combat becoming no more than butterfly themed thieves. Having the audacity to laud PU as “strategy” and/or skill is laughable. Call it elitist but I dare you to post video of duel with a competent player without DE or PU let’s see how long you last.

Alas that is the current state of Mesmer call it what you will. I will still call them crutches, A-net gave us these “tools/traits” but they have to do better we have to continue to challenge them to do better even if we do not see immediate results… We need to be unified as a community, we need to be educated as a community and realize that Mesmer is not in a place where we want it.

You’re spot on about everything but the bolded bit. At that point someone might be right to call you “elitist”, which is simply a veiled, possibly more positive way to point out you’re being a scrub. Not saying that to be rude or mean, simply that any competent player, or master, is going to make wide decisions when it comes to dominating his adversaries. If/When Anet buffs other things to the point they become powerful and see frequent use in the Mesmer kitten nal, I can see you being “elitist” all over again and snubbing those for using it, laughing, and sarcastically brandying around the words “strategy and/or skill”.

Revelations.3154:

Sigh… I knew this day would come eventually… where I would have to break my silence.

The Mesmer community has been in denial long enough! Prismatic Understanding IS A CRUTCH! Deceptive Evasion IS A CRUTCH!

Crutch : 1. a long stick with a crosspiece at the top, used as a support under the armpit by a lame person.

These 2 traits have been supporting our increasing reliance on Survivability

With DE being the longest running of the crutches but I digress lets focus on PU.
In the context of WvW roaming, About 6 months ago I remember my first duels with the pioneers of the PU build. They knew back then it was stupid easy to troll 2-4 players trying to play whack-a-clone while the popping in and out of stealth executing and negating attacks at the same time. Whether you tried to get them with brute force or condi they could reset with the application of stealth.

Now here we are 6 months later and many Mesmers are still clinging desperately to this trait amongst others all for the sake of survivability. You think I’m wrong? How many Mesmers continue to wrack their minds over placing 20 in dueling just to gain access to DE? Why? Because it adds a modicum of survivability to the Mesmer by target breaking. Next, PU on top of utility of our stealth mechanic which are mostly defense based, we get defensive boons to further bolster survivability. Even excrement has a modicum of nutritional value but you won’t catch me eating it!

So what happened? As other classes where buffed/defined or just better at hard countering what we offer as a profession. We remained stagnant to the point that we have to rely on cheesey gimmicks to just survive long enough to execute abilities and remain competitive.

We are now in this place for the following reasons; the Mesmer community is stagnating, and now we are choosing to perpetuate ignorance and name calling over dynamic innovation. There are 2 spheres of thought in this thread that can be summed up in a statement: "Is survival and doing anything for the sake of survival skill? Or is executing a strategy based on a balanced set traits and utilities skill?

My personal opinion on PU is that people are willing to defend a lackadaisical approach to Mesmer combat becoming no more than butterfly themed thieves. Having the audacity to laud PU as “strategy” and/or skill is laughable. Call it elitist but I dare you to post video of duel with a competent player without DE or PU let’s see how long you last.

Alas that is the current state of Mesmer call it what you will. I will still call them crutches, A-net gave us these “tools/traits” but they have to do better we have to continue to challenge them to do better even if we do not see immediate results… We need to be unified as a community, we need to be educated as a community and realize that Mesmer is not in a place where we want it.

So you are saying because DE creates more illusions, breaks target, provides the mesmer to not be the real target (if you play mesmer other mesmers are easy to fight, the clones and phantasms have easy visual cues). Also isn’t then that what build creation is? making a composite structure from different options? Like Idk the thieves shadow tree, or the warriors cleansing ire, dogged march, balanced stance traits? Healing signet? you saying we shouldn’t use any of this because it is unfair and unbalanced? other classes have these options, most guardians fall under the repetitive GS sword torch, GS focus sceptre, do you know why? (unless they play Hammer in a zerg or comp group). It is in the class mechanism, don’t blame the players, blame the game designers, even if I chose not to use any of these, I am not gonna stop every other player on their tracks, join their party and rage about them being low life for using cheap tactics, you can’t control what everyone else chooses to do.

Hedger.9261:

Revelations.3154:

SNIP

You miss the point. No one is arguing to keep the status quo, most are asking for just the opposite. Many would gladly use other things if they had the same return on investment as PU builds do. Anet has made a point of pushing the class more and more towards this trait by weakening everything around it. PU is literally our last position of high ground. Between nerfs and bugs, other builds are constant uphill battles to only get similar results. Having to fight your own mechanics into submission is not a display of skill, its a display of masochism

Some have created this code of honor that they expect everyone to adhere to but in practice there is no such thing. People will use what works, and so far Anet has made sure that the only thing that works on a reasonable amount of effort are PU builds.

There is also a false equivalence being thrown around that just taking PU means you dont know how to play or that you are of lesser status which gets us as a community nowhere when we have both thieves and warriors pointing at us to take the attention off of them. Our community has become quite toxic around this issue all due to outside pressures. In the overall scheme of the game, we are talking about a single aspect of a single game mode. Our two main rivals in this aspect have gotten us to argue amongst ourselves and against our own interests to push us out while they are still strong across the board.

Ty the damage inc to critical damage, the vigor nerfs, the DE unknown changes. So far mesmer has moved slowly from a heavy phant and crit damage to a more passive play, in the end, Pu isn’t the issue, rather from a balance point of view, we are being pidgeon holed into the trait little by little, and others are ignoring this, trying to kill the last thing we have without trying to come up with better solutions to buff other areas and decrease the current state of mesmers.

calavel.6249:

Morfedel.4165:

When a thief can pop out of stealth, hit you for half your health and immediately restealth, heal up, come out and finish the job, yeah it is a problem.

And while in stealth they have time to identify which is the real one very easily.

5s is not immediately. It is in fact rather a long time. If you get backstabbed, then the thief gets Revealed, there is no way around this because he has to break stealth prematurely in order to backstab. Revealed is not as big a problem for a mesmer because staying in stealth has more benefits then breaking it prematurely (thus triggering Revealed).

But this is not a thief vs. mesmer 1v1 discussion. Yes, it is easier for a thief to back off and play the waiting game against a stealth mesmer. But other classes do not have this advantage, every time they lose target they have to run around and try to find the stealthed mesmer while clones pump out conditions or damage.
When a thief stealths he is effectively giving you a couple of seconds to do whatever you want (run, heal, stealth, pop prot etc.), because he needs time to set up his hit. He is also making it abundantly clear what is going to happen next. He is going to backstab you, and it is going to happen within the next 3-6 seconds because he needs to do it before his stealth runs out.
A mesmer with a heavy stealth build is constantly pressuring and applying damage even when they play defensively.

The issue with thief vs mesmer, in a controlled environment (OS) the mesmer and the opponent have no outside external interference in a duel. Roaming is a different story, when a thief stealths he has one advantage over the mesmer : He has direct burst, he doesn’t require mobs or pets to do the damage for him. As a result in some cases the phantasms and clones will get aggroed by mobs, or our shatters can trigger mobs (ever been stunned by a raptor in the middle of a fight against a d/d thief? or knockdown by a boar?) , our phantasms are strong yes, but they are also a hindrance when blinded or distracted, hence blinds can work and AoE will kill them if done right, then the mesmer has no direct burst.

Ross Biddle.2367:

This isnt quite as simple and straight forward as you make it sound. Couple problems. In stealth, or just vs certain classes, thieves are faster. So running isnt an option. In fact turning and heading in a straight line is opening your back to them in an obvious way. Healing might work after the first burst, but he can do more than one backstab in the time it takes for your heal to run through it’s 30s cooldown. Procing protection isnt available to all classes/builds, at least not on demand. We all known the problem with the likes of aegis vs stealth, but the real problem is targated skills. If you have a lot of them, if you rely on them you cant use them in your so called free period you’re talking about. So, in fact, that period isnt free at all. It’s pressure the thief is applying despite the fact he’s not hitting you for the second.

What’s this mysterious 30s CD heal? Is it some sort of made-up average of all heal skills cooldown time? They go as low as 10 and as high as 40 or 60 I think. Running is more than just moving in a straight line. You can dodge, use port skills, leaps etc. And please explain to me this “pressure” the thief is applying while in stealth and not damaging you.

But yes indeed, the real problem is targeted skills. I see you’re beginning to understand. Now take away the backstab and replace it with 3 fake thieves spamming bleeds on you.

Narsil.6579:

Do you even main a mesmer?

Yes i main a Mesmer, and a Guardian, as my signature notes. I have played full zerk phantasm, blackwater PU, hybrid PU, shatter, mindcrush and a mix of just about everything in between. I guess my signature should be in a larger font, maybe flashing.

Narsil.6579:

Any phantasm? are you joking?

Im sorry, offensively summoning Phantasms should drop you out of stealth. Just like attacking a player, i dont even see how this is even arguably justifiable.

Narsil.6579:

torch + decoy + veil + MI

For veil it can be used twice per use.

Thats a lot of stealth, and during that ‘in stealth’ time you will most likely be regening endurance with vigor(i think we all seen this nerf coming)so when u pop out u will be ready to spunk off a few clones for your next shatter, whichever that may be. You will be winding down blurred frenzy, block timers, winding down shatter timers, might even buy some time with some clones being attacked or people just switching targets to someone else. Because they kind of got annoyed at chasing the mesmer around when there’s a perfectly good Ele over there they can tear to pieces and not have to deal with stealth/clones.

Im providing info as to why people think PU is so OP, the stealth mechanic and the boons. Seems pretty straight forward, stealth is a very powerful mechanic and PU abuses stealth. Look at all the complaints about thieves, of course some flack is going to be leveled at Mesmers.

Chorazin.4107:

Narsil.6579:

Do you even main a mesmer?

Yes i main a Mesmer, and a Guardian, as my signature notes. I have played full zerk phantasm, blackwater PU, hybrid PU, shatter, mindcrush and a mix of just about everything in between. I guess my signature should be in a larger font, maybe flashing.

Narsil.6579:

Any phantasm? are you joking?

Im sorry, offensively summoning Phantasms should drop you out of stealth. Just like attacking a player, i dont even see how this is even arguably justifiable.

Narsil.6579:

torch + decoy + veil + MI

For veil it can be used twice per use.

Thats a lot of stealth, and during that ‘in stealth’ time you will most likely be regening endurance with vigor(i think we all seen this nerf coming)so when u pop out u will be ready to spunk off a few clones for your next shatter, whichever that may be. You will be winding down blurred frenzy, block timers, winding down shatter timers, might even buy some time with some clones being attacked or people just switching targets to someone else. Because they kind of got annoyed at chasing the mesmer around when there’s a perfectly good Ele over there they can tear to pieces and not have to deal with stealth/clones.

Im providing info as to why people think PU is so OP, the stealth mechanic and the boons. Seems pretty straight forward, stealth is a very powerful mechanic and PU abuses stealth. Look at all the complaints about thieves, of course some flack is going to be leveled at Mesmers.

The issue here is that mesmer stealth isn’t as strong as thieve, long cds, and on top of that if you run a stealth mesmer the less stealth the more damage, so in my details I want to give the notion that more stealth for mesmers means less defense in either damage or conditions, it is simple, if you are a stealth mesmer with torch you will not insta burst someone as opposed to shatter or phant or lockdown (daze stun lock not confusion torment cripple bleed builds). Yes you can stack regen and protection and aegis, but at most they go for is 40 secs if chained all at once (Ive done experiments trying to see how long anything stacks if i blew off everything in a timed fashion) but you give away your cds for boons that wont save you for long against heavy condition or heavy sustained burst. PU is a defensive trait, only because of the synergy with the chaos traitline, remove Illusionary membrane and Metaphysical rejuvenation and PU wont be different from a a normal chaos storm (aside not applying swiftness). 20 20 30 is a good traitline for damage and vul stacking, horrible for condition clearing if not traiting torch, 10 20 30 10 good balance but not that much impressive, 0 10 30 30 good sustain 1v1 maybe , ehh idk 1vx , but it has so insane sustain compared to the other 2,
0 0 30 30 10 idk what this is but it sounds horrible, all in all PU is the weakes in terms of comparison to other playstyles, it only has sutain going for it, but a good played shatter mesmer or phant build can do a good job against it , but now adays even shatter and phant are suffering in comparison to other classes in some instances (roaming) hence PU is only good for sustain because of the traitline synergy ( if you use Manipulation cd with Mirror of Anguish pair with PU) plus the minor traits : you have a free stun break you have good active port and the PU with other 2 minor traits is strong, but you will throw away burst.

@ Boss Riddle
When I made this statement “Having the audacity to laud PU as “strategy” and/or skill is laughable. Call it elitist but I dare you to post video of duel with a competent player without DE or PU let’s see how long you last.”

Your answer basically follows my concerns. What are we Mesmers willing to do to stay competitive?

My point is this: “Perpspective”. PU allows Mesmer’s to play by creating in combat fog of war at the cadence of that Mesmer’s Stealth cool down. Whether a skilled Mesmer or novice Mesmer plays PU it buys them time. These days one wrong move you get hit for 1/3rd-1/2 HP bar. Mistakes on Mesmer are extremely punishing…

So I understand the need for a Mesmer to buy time. PU buys so much time in fact it does become a crutch because it’s reliable at providing time. Time to survive, time to attack, time to re-position and time to heal… etc. all packaged in one trait. If Mesmer had a skill that was the opposite of time warp where it would slow time you would see in-combat results similar to PU.

I remember when other classes complained and got Glamour builds nerfed. People flocked to that build and quickly realized that it required map awareness and coordination to actually pull off amazing confusion stacks. People flocked to it but we all knew Glamours are a situation dependent Build mostly used for group play. Anet’s problem with it was not just Confusion but the most powerful passive AoE in the game.

The ubiquitous nature of PU is that you see it everywhere in some variant. Instead of it being part of tool box of things Mesmer can do it is now defining the Profession. People above have even mentioned that when they beat an opponent they get called out for using PU…

As a Mesmer who’s been playing since beta and has played every style. My achievements my skill that I have gained is getting glory hogged by one trait!? That’s where my ire comes from… I’m not trying to pick on players who use it…

Revelations.3154:

As a Mesmer who’s been playing since beta and has played every style. My achievements my skill that I have gained is getting glory hogged by one trait!? That’s where my ire comes from… I’m not trying to pick on players who use it…

You’ve trolled the forums since beta, and you get laughed out of them every time you show your face again….are those the achievements you’re talking about? You’re not doing any better this time.

See: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-Theory-of-Everything/first#post2837815

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-A-Matter-of-Perspective/first#post2828003

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Discussion-Comparing-Between-Sword-Scepter/first#post2343997

Edit: Ooh this one too: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/PSA-A-Scepter-s-Message-to-Mesmers/first#post2364061

I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned, but Critical Infusion is apparently slated to be nerfed, as mentioned in a livestream some time ago. That will possibly result in a hit to the PU build’s vigor and dodging uptime, depending on what’s changed.

They’re probably going to move it up to either master or grandmaster.