Guild Wars 2

This might have been brought up before and if it has and someone has the link off the top of their head I would be forever grateful to have some feedback on this.

I simply wish to know if it was intend that the phantom skills be an assured cast and if so why is this not reflected on the skills description. For a skill that could potentially (depending on spec) do a lot of damage it seems like the ability to dodge the skill without it casting should be implemented like with most skills in the game. I hesitate to say all skills incase I have overlooked something that is similar to this situation excluding any skills that are properly marked/traited as unblockable (and sometimes even these can be evaded.)

After all the Phant’s are on a fairly short cool down and if your enemy dodges one chances are you can hit them with another one by switching weapons or simply waiting tell the cooldown is up. Whats the point of seeing the cast from a mile away if you can do nothing about it? While I do know you can use blind or interrupt to halt the summons and that you can usually dodge the initial attack it seems odd that you can not dodge the skill all together.

Also if these skills were actually dodgeble wouldn’t it promote smarter play? Instead of just casting the skill because its there and assured. Overall it would be nice to hear from others their take on it.

Please refrain from l2p and other unhelpful comments that seem to plague these forums of late. By all means disagree with me but please don’t just say “no” instead tell me why not and how in your opinion its a bad move.

Lulwat? Shatters and illusion summons are dodgeable, not to mention can be easily be obstructed.

Dawdler.8521:

Lulwat? Shatters and illusion summons are dodgeable, not to mention can be easily be obstructed.

I’m not talking about shatters. However if by illusions you mean “Phantasmal [name here]” Then I must be missing something >.< because every time I’ve dodged the obvious cast it cast anyway.

They can be blinded/invulned. That used to not be so. They were also given an ICD of 1/2second from the time rthey were summoned til attacking. They have also had the cds increased for all of them making some them have base CDs where as other classes have some relatively short cds in comparison. Making the very obvious cast animation dodgeable would ensure mesmers are dead everywhere except some parts of pve.

Tldr stop dodging the summon and dodge the first attack of the phantasm. I find the other nerfs annowing since other summons can’t be negated with a blind/invuln just their attacks may miss.

jportell.2197:

They can be blinded/invulned. That used to not be so. They were also given an ICD of 1/2second from the time rthey were summoned til attacking. They have also had the cds increased for all of them making some them have base CDs where as other classes have some relatively short cds in comparison. Making the very obvious cast animation dodgeable would ensure mesmers are dead everywhere except some parts of pve.

Tldr stop dodging the summon and dodge the first attack of the phantasm. I find the other nerfs annowing since other summons can’t be negated with a blind/invuln just their attacks may miss.

At this point I do dodge the first attack but that isn’t really what I want to focus on. Could you point to what other summons you have in mind? Are you referring to minion mechanics? What classes have a short cooldown in comparison and is the damage the same in that comparison?

If the cast were less noticeable would you be more towards allowing it to be dodged? What I’m reading from you is that the inability to dodge attacks is a major part of Mesmer play and without it the Mesmer would not be able to compete?

Since phantasms are our only source of damage outside of 1 shatter no the summons should not be dodgeable they are already susceptible to blind/invuln and IT seems anet doesn’t want their summon dodged since EVERY phantasm has a delay between summon and attack. I am referring to all summons in the game from ranger pets to thieves guild mesmer illusions even our defensive ones are completely target bound. And unlike other summons they are tied to our weapons and we have 1 directly damaging utility skill (mantra of pain). With how easily accessible dodging is in most cases having the entire phantasm summon negated from a dodge would kill any hope mesmers have of reliable dps or even returning to the meta. Our weapon attacks in our direct control are garbage damage where as other people’s summons that require no target can do respectable damage even if the caster is blinded (seperate entity means they aren’t affected) and still have decent damage in their weapon skills. Ranger long bow 2 for example can crit to 10 k on a single target with a pet still dishing out decent attacks and is on a shorter cooldown than all mesmer phantasms. That’s the issue here is mesmers have almost no reliable access to respectable dps and any further nerfs to it and anet just as well delete the class from the game.

jportell.2197:

Since phantasms are our only source of damage outside of 1 shatter no the summons should not be dodgeable they are already susceptible to blind/invuln and IT seems anet doesn’t want their summon dodged since EVERY phantasm has a delay between summon and attack. I am referring to all summons in the game from ranger pets to thieves guild mesmer illusions even our defensive ones are completely target bound. And unlike other summons they are tied to our weapons and we have 1 directly damaging utility skill (mantra of pain). With how easily accessible dodging is in most cases having the entire phantasm summon negated from a dodge would kill any hope mesmers have of reliable dps or even returning to the meta. Our weapon attacks in our direct control are garbage damage where as other people’s summons that require no target can do respectable damage even if the caster is blinded (seperate entity means they aren’t affected) and still have decent damage in their weapon skills. Ranger long bow 2 for example can crit to 10 k on a single target with a pet still dishing out decent attacks and is on a shorter cooldown than all mesmer phantasms. That’s the issue here is mesmers have almost no reliable access to respectable dps and any further nerfs to it and anet just as well delete the class from the game.

I see where you are coming from on this and now that you’ve pointed it out I can see the issues in the fact that the Mesmer has few offensive options short of phantasms.

I cant say I agree with the Ranger to Mesmer comparison. While yes a ranger can do a 10k crit if you so much as look at them they should be dead on top of that while the cooldown of the phantasmal illusions is longer, the ICD on the phantasms are less then the Rangers long bow 2.

That aside perhaps if the skill time on the phantasms was brought down then it would be reasonable to allow them to be dodged? If not perhaps actually making them summoned beings without ties to the weapons and trading there places out for actual sources of dmg. While I suppose this will probably never happen it would be nice if they did something as IMO it would make fights more interesting if they could be dodged or if they where placed as skills instead of tied to the weapon.

Regardless thanks for responding your input has been helpful.

Yeah if its a phantasm mesmer straight up that you’re fighting forget what everyone has told you about ignoring illuisons wipe the phantasms fast then mesmer is dead. If the phantasms are hitting like a truck their shatters suck. And a zerker ranger replacing spirit of air or the sun one with stone is still pretty tough to kill

jportell.2197:

Yeah if its a phantasm mesmer straight up that you’re fighting forget what everyone has told you about ignoring illuisons wipe the phantasms fast then mesmer is dead. If the phantasms are hitting like a truck their shatters suck. And a zerker ranger replacing spirit of air or the sun one with stone is still pretty tough to kill

The biggest problem I find with that at times are those that have gone into “Persisting Images – Phantasms have 20% more health.” Generally my tactic is to not engage with a Phantasm Mesmer at all since the build I generally run will be a joke against it. In terms of spirit rangers that is a beast of its own with plenty of threads devoted to it. However if they are running just one spirit removing it isn’t that hard.

Illusionary Duelist, Phantasmal Swordsman, Phantasmal Mage, Phantasmal Defender, Phantasmal Disenchanter, Phantasmal Rogue, Phantasmal Warlock, Illusionary Mariner, Illusionary Whaler, Phantasmal Berserker, and Phantasmal Warden: These skills must now be cast in line-of-sight of the target. These skills now behave as normal attacks that the mesmer must connect in order to summon the phantasm, and they will fail if the mesmer is blind or the ability is cast on an invulnerable target.

These skills now behave as normal attacks

But undodgeble.
Need fix.

Marduh.4603:

Illusionary Duelist, Phantasmal Swordsman, Phantasmal Mage, Phantasmal Defender, Phantasmal Disenchanter, Phantasmal Rogue, Phantasmal Warlock, Illusionary Mariner, Illusionary Whaler, Phantasmal Berserker, and Phantasmal Warden: These skills must now be cast in line-of-sight of the target. These skills now behave as normal attacks that the mesmer must connect in order to summon the phantasm, and they will fail if the mesmer is blind or the ability is cast on an invulnerable target.

These skills now behave as normal attacks

But undodgeble.
Need fix.

I wish this was on the wiki. While the “they will fail” hints that it doesn’t count dodging it would be nice if they would put it in actual writing.

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

^^ this – 15 char

Phantasms should be reworked to be short-lived burst/utility, not long-living 1v1 grief tanks that die instantly in a zerg.

Go on ANet, nerf the class that has basically zero sPvP presence so that they’re balanced in to being even more useless.

How hard is it to watch for the clearly choreographed phantasm summon, count to 1 then dodge?

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

EnRohbi.2187:

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Not true.
Two ways.

1) dodge phantasms
2)dodge first attack of phantasms

Now you always cast pet.

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

The issue is that Phantasms are one of the only attack skills where you have to actually “hit” your target twice. Once to summon, then again for their extremely predictable attack. I don’t think it would be right for us to have two chances to avoid a single skill.

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

You did not get that right.
It is fair the way it is now, as you get one opportunity to dodge damage (The phantasm’s attack), just like I have one opportunity to dodge damage applied by you (Your attack).

If you could dodge the summoning of a phantasm to negate the spawn entirely, you would have two chances to dodge the same attack. As you would be allowed to miss dodging the summon and still avoid damage by dodging the first attack.

Theplayboy.6417:

The issue is that Phantasms are one of the only attack skills where you have to actually “hit” your target twice. Once to summon, then again for their extremely predictable attack. I don’t think it would be right for us to have two chances to avoid a single skill.

You are right here.
In order to balance this, the phantasm should be undodgeable.
Also, to make it more inline with other attacks, which just need 1 dodge to avoid the damage, the phantasm should die immediatly after attack.
If they survive, they can attack multiple times, making more dodges needed to avoid the damage, which would be an unfair advantage over any other skill ingame.

TL;DR The equivalent of that for other classes would be:
Make all Pet summons in combat only.
Make all Elemental weapon/Kit Summons in combat Only.
Make Engineer Turret casts dodgeable,
Make Necromancer minion casts dodgeable.
Make Guardian Weapon Summon casts Dodgeable.
Make Ranger Pet summons and Spirit summons dodgeable

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

You did not get that right.
It is fair the way it is now, as you get one opportunity to dodge damage (The phantasm’s attack), just like I have one opportunity to dodge damage applied by you (Your attack).

If you could dodge the summoning of a phantasm to negate the spawn entirely, you would have two chances to dodge the same attack. As you would be allowed to miss dodging the summon and still avoid damage by dodging the first attack.

Ok. If only the attack of the phantasm can cause damage to the other player thats fair for me. Thanks for the answer.
But the phantasm should only attack once.

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

You did not get that right.
It is fair the way it is now, as you get one opportunity to dodge damage (The phantasm’s attack), just like I have one opportunity to dodge damage applied by you (Your attack).

If you could dodge the summoning of a phantasm to negate the spawn entirely, you would have two chances to dodge the same attack. As you would be allowed to miss dodging the summon and still avoid damage by dodging the first attack.

Ok. If only the attack of the phantasm can cause damage to the other player thats fair for me. Thanks for the answer.
But the phantasm should only attack once.

And then do what? Just stand there? Besides, the cooldowns are way too long for phantasms to only attack once.

I believe everything about Mesmer is fine ATM. All of other skill from Mesmer weapon skill, save Phantasm and Blurred Frenzy deal so little damage. All the Phatansm have the timeframe in which they can attack again. So, if you got it right, dodging Phantasm attack is not so impossible. Plus their Shatter on Phtasm build is weak anyway, I don’t feel the need to dodge that. The only things I feel out of whack right now is just the dams is a bit higher than it should be. Plus the idea of sitting behind Phatansm and let them do all the dams does not sit well with how Anet want the game to be.

My suggestion maybe :

A/ Lower the dams of Phantasm (10% to start with)
B/ Can only have one type of Phantasm at a time. If the new one being cast, replace the old same one.
C/ Make the Phantasm disappear as soon as the skill to summon the appropriate Phtasm off CD.

Just a few quick brain-storming.

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

You did not get that right.
It is fair the way it is now, as you get one opportunity to dodge damage (The phantasm’s attack), just like I have one opportunity to dodge damage applied by you (Your attack).

If you could dodge the summoning of a phantasm to negate the spawn entirely, you would have two chances to dodge the same attack. As you would be allowed to miss dodging the summon and still avoid damage by dodging the first attack.

Ok. If only the attack of the phantasm can cause damage to the other player thats fair for me. Thanks for the answer.
But the phantasm should only attack once.

Mine usually get shattered or killed before they get a second attack anyway, so it wouldn’t be as big of a problem as it sounds.

But I still disagree.
Phantasms are pretty much the only damage we get if we’re letting them attack multiple times (Since they die the second we shatter), a mesmer that relies on Phantasms for damage pretty much drops the phantasm (Maybe swaps weapons and drops the second one) and then has nothing to do but CC or survival for at least the next 15~20 seconds until the CD is up.

In a scenario such as you describe, a mesmer would have nearly zero damage output for 20 seconds just because their phantasm’s attack got dodged. This is already the case for a lot of mesmers when their illusions are killed (Which is a far cry from hard to do with all the AoE in this game, especially recently). A mesmer’s value to fights is greatly diminished when all they can do is kite or teleport for half of it.

Nerf mesmer thread during the “no one even plays mesmer atm because the meta”
You guys must be some kittenhurt hotjoiners or something..

No one sits around while phantasms deal all the damage,
Try playing mesmer you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Maybe you’re still dreaming it is a month ago and people still played phantasm builds (And people still played mesmer).

All phantasms are easy-breezy-beautiful-cover-girl to dodge.
Except Iduelist, you need two dodges for that horse kitten.

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

You did not get that right.
It is fair the way it is now, as you get one opportunity to dodge damage (The phantasm’s attack), just like I have one opportunity to dodge damage applied by you (Your attack).

If you could dodge the summoning of a phantasm to negate the spawn entirely, you would have two chances to dodge the same attack. As you would be allowed to miss dodging the summon and still avoid damage by dodging the first attack.

Ok. If only the attack of the phantasm can cause damage to the other player thats fair for me. Thanks for the answer.
But the phantasm should only attack once.

Mine usually get shattered or killed before they get a second attack anyway, so it wouldn’t be as big of a problem as it sounds.

But I still disagree.
Phantasms are pretty much the only damage we get if we’re letting them attack multiple times (Since they die the second we shatter), a mesmer that relies on Phantasms for damage pretty much drops the phantasm (Maybe swaps weapons and drops the second one) and then has nothing to do but CC or survival for at least the next 15~20 seconds until the CD is up.

In a scenario such as you describe, a mesmer would have nearly zero damage output for 20 seconds just because their phantasm’s attack got dodged. This is already the case for a lot of mesmers when their illusions are killed (Which is a far cry from hard to do with all the AoE in this game, especially recently). A mesmer’s value to fights is greatly diminished when all they can do is kite or teleport for half of it.

So if we are talking about – i use one skill that you can dodge once, CD is aplied to the skill and i cannot use it again until the CD is over (if i hit you thats good, if not to bad) and you have the same oportunity as me with the same sistem, that’s totaly fair to me.

Every class (except thiefs) have CD and mesmer is no exception. They should reduce the CD for those kind of skills to be on par with other professions and they should only hit once.
This way is fair for all.

Stealth.9324:

I believe everything about Mesmer is fine ATM. All of other skill from Mesmer weapon skill, save Phantasm and Blurred Frenzy deal so little damage. All the Phatansm have the timeframe in which they can attack again. So, if you got it right, dodging Phantasm attack is not so impossible. Plus their Shatter on Phtasm build is weak anyway, I don’t feel the need to dodge that. The only things I feel out of whack right now is just the dams is a bit higher than it should be. Plus the idea of sitting behind Phatansm and let them do all the dams does not sit well with how Anet want the game to be.

My suggestion maybe :

A/ Lower the dams of Phantasm (10% to start with)
B/ Can only have one type of Phantasm at a time. If the new one being cast, replace the old same one.
C/ Make the Phantasm disappear as soon as the skill to summon the appropriate Phtasm off CD.

Just a few quick brain-storming.

Your post started off good but then went completely in the wrong direction…

A – They should do more damage actually. Phantasms do only decent damage when you’ve spent all of your traits points specifically to make them that way. Thus you’ve given up everything for decent easily avoidable damage.

B – This is quite possibly the worst idea I’ve ever heard regarding Phantasms and Mesmers. Additionally it would severely kitten Phantasm Mesmers in sPvP and PvE.

C- Meh…This idea might work in sPvP Only but the Phantasms don’t disappear they Auto Shatter and AOE Mind Wrack Plus AOE 5 Stacks of Confusion or 5 Stacks of Terror.

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

You did not get that right.
It is fair the way it is now, as you get one opportunity to dodge damage (The phantasm’s attack), just like I have one opportunity to dodge damage applied by you (Your attack).

If you could dodge the summoning of a phantasm to negate the spawn entirely, you would have two chances to dodge the same attack. As you would be allowed to miss dodging the summon and still avoid damage by dodging the first attack.

Ok. If only the attack of the phantasm can cause damage to the other player thats fair for me. Thanks for the answer.
But the phantasm should only attack once.

Mine usually get shattered or killed before they get a second attack anyway, so it wouldn’t be as big of a problem as it sounds.

But I still disagree.
Phantasms are pretty much the only damage we get if we’re letting them attack multiple times (Since they die the second we shatter), a mesmer that relies on Phantasms for damage pretty much drops the phantasm (Maybe swaps weapons and drops the second one) and then has nothing to do but CC or survival for at least the next 15~20 seconds until the CD is up.

In a scenario such as you describe, a mesmer would have nearly zero damage output for 20 seconds just because their phantasm’s attack got dodged. This is already the case for a lot of mesmers when their illusions are killed (Which is a far cry from hard to do with all the AoE in this game, especially recently). A mesmer’s value to fights is greatly diminished when all they can do is kite or teleport for half of it.

So if we are talking about – i use one skill that you can dodge once, CD is aplied to the skill and i cannot use it again until the CD is over (if i hit you thats good, if not to bad) and you have the same oportunity as me with the same sistem, that’s totaly fair to me.

Every class (except thiefs) have CD and mesmer is no exception. They should reduce the CD for those kind of skills to be on par with other professions and they should only hit once.
This way is fair for all.

LOL. Silent are you seriously having a super hard time beating Phantasm Mesmers? Or do you just hate all Mesmers in general?

Wow, reducing phantasm CDs would be such a boon for shatter mesmers you don’t even know, most of my phantasms only attack once anyway.

Please anet, listen to this guy who has no idea about how to balance classes whatsoever Please buff my shatter mesmer.

lol phantasm mesmers have 20 second recharge? no, 12 seconds. Recharge doesn’t need to be reduced as phantasms are now.

TL;DR The equivalent of that for other classes would be:
Make all Pet summons in combat only.
Make all Elemental weapon/Kit Summons in combat Only.
Make Engineer Turret casts dodgeable,
Make Necromancer minion casts dodgeable.
Make Guardian Weapon Summon casts Dodgeable.
Make Ranger Pet summons and Spirit summons dodgeable

You guys can’t see the difference between these things and a ghost spitting unload every 6 seconds on a 12 second recharge? Really? Because minions/turrets/spirit weapons share the exact same recharge/damage/target summon as phantasms right? Yeah…

And then there are those of you saying “well this meta sucks for mesmers”, it sucks for a lot of things and yes mesmers took it in the face. If you take away the condition spam what’s going to happen?

And I’m not saying mesmers are perfect, broken, underpowered etc. I agree with OP that the cast should be dodgeable. Some of you seem to think Anet nerfs/buffs in linear patterns but that is never the case- one thing leads into another.

Theplayboy.6417:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

You did not get that right.
It is fair the way it is now, as you get one opportunity to dodge damage (The phantasm’s attack), just like I have one opportunity to dodge damage applied by you (Your attack).

If you could dodge the summoning of a phantasm to negate the spawn entirely, you would have two chances to dodge the same attack. As you would be allowed to miss dodging the summon and still avoid damage by dodging the first attack.

Ok. If only the attack of the phantasm can cause damage to the other player thats fair for me. Thanks for the answer.
But the phantasm should only attack once.

Mine usually get shattered or killed before they get a second attack anyway, so it wouldn’t be as big of a problem as it sounds.

But I still disagree.
Phantasms are pretty much the only damage we get if we’re letting them attack multiple times (Since they die the second we shatter), a mesmer that relies on Phantasms for damage pretty much drops the phantasm (Maybe swaps weapons and drops the second one) and then has nothing to do but CC or survival for at least the next 15~20 seconds until the CD is up.

In a scenario such as you describe, a mesmer would have nearly zero damage output for 20 seconds just because their phantasm’s attack got dodged. This is already the case for a lot of mesmers when their illusions are killed (Which is a far cry from hard to do with all the AoE in this game, especially recently). A mesmer’s value to fights is greatly diminished when all they can do is kite or teleport for half of it.

So if we are talking about – i use one skill that you can dodge once, CD is aplied to the skill and i cannot use it again until the CD is over (if i hit you thats good, if not to bad) and you have the same oportunity as me with the same sistem, that’s totaly fair to me.

Every class (except thiefs) have CD and mesmer is no exception. They should reduce the CD for those kind of skills to be on par with other professions and they should only hit once.
This way is fair for all.

LOL. Silent are you seriously having a super hard time beating Phantasm Mesmers? Or do you just hate all Mesmers in general?

Lol… No hate for mesmers here…
Just the same way you have your opinion on this game, others can also have their opinion about what is fair or not. ( I believe we were talking about that)
See the history of my points. No hate there… Some trues and some thoughts only…

I liked your post… lol

Darnis.4056:

Wow, reducing phantasm CDs would be such a boon for shatter mesmers you don’t even know, most of my phantasms only attack once anyway.

Please anet, listen to this guy who has no idea about how to balance classes whatsoever Please buff my shatter mesmer.

Yea… Same CD with other skills with same damage and usefullness. At last you agree with me

If a change like that would go through you’d be crying the next day I guarantee it.
In fact it was a hot topic back in the day.

Anet specifically nerfed CDs on phantasms MULTIPLE TIMES
(Think we’re up to 3 now) because they want you to have to choose whether to drop them let them dps more then once or allow them to be killed by enemies.

It’s this fact that leads me to believe that they WANT people to rely on phantasm damage/uptime.

it’s an invocation not a spell that attack directly, it’s like elementalists ultimate, rangers spirits, necros minions, engi turrets … etc

Darnis.4056:

If a change like that would go through you’d be crying the next day I guarantee it.
In fact it was a hot topic back in the day.

Anet specifically nerfed CDs on phantasms MULTIPLE TIMES
(Think we’re up to 3 now) because they want you to have to choose whether to drop them let them dps more then once or allow them to be killed by enemies.

It’s this fact that leads me to believe that they WANT people to rely on phantasm damage/uptime.

If you sumon a phantasm and the oponent can dodge it once and its not worryed about that phantasm until the CD is over, that is fair imo. And i belive it would promote skill play. But the CD/damage must also be well thought for mesmer and other classes think that it is ok that way.

I’m not sure where some of you guys are getting this as a “Nerf Mesmer” thread, because that is not what I am aiming for but instead I wanted to address a certain mechanic of the game that seemed odd to me as I prefer to have skills dodge-able so that there is more thought to there use. I hope that those of you who keep referring to the meta can look outside it to the class itself. ( I know it bites, you know it bites, we all know it bites, I’d rather not beat a dead horse here.)

@Theplayboy
If the skill was closer to an insta-cast or if the initial attack of the phantasm struck right then do you think it would make sense to have it dodgeble?

@Darnis
I don’t really see how that comparison is accurate.
“Make all Pet summons in combat only.
Make all Elemental weapon/Kit Summons in combat Only.” What? How is this even remotely similar? While forcing players to summon stuff in combat would be interesting I don’t really get the correlation other then the fact that a Mesmer has to be in combat with a target to summon a phantasm.

Which leads to the fact that phantasm is a single target skill. As apposed to Engi Turrent which is aoe skill. The utilities of the Minion Masters, Spirit, and Weapons are not taken as a dmg source(I hope) but instead that is an added bonus to the skills that these creatures employ in combat and as far as I am aware the comparison between dmg is not the same nor should it be.

@Jackums
Usually most things are shut down by blind spamming. Spamming in general is a different issue.

@silentnight warrior
Agreed.

Theplayboy.6417:

Stealth.9324:

I believe everything about Mesmer is fine ATM. All of other skill from Mesmer weapon skill, save Phantasm and Blurred Frenzy deal so little damage. All the Phatansm have the timeframe in which they can attack again. So, if you got it right, dodging Phantasm attack is not so impossible. Plus their Shatter on Phtasm build is weak anyway, I don’t feel the need to dodge that. The only things I feel out of whack right now is just the dams is a bit higher than it should be. Plus the idea of sitting behind Phatansm and let them do all the dams does not sit well with how Anet want the game to be.

My suggestion maybe :

A/ Lower the dams of Phantasm (10% to start with)
B/ Can only have one type of Phantasm at a time. If the new one being cast, replace the old same one.
C/ Make the Phantasm disappear as soon as the skill to summon the appropriate Phtasm off CD.

Just a few quick brain-storming.

Your post started off good but then went completely in the wrong direction…

A – They should do more damage actually. Phantasms do only decent damage when you’ve spent all of your traits points specifically to make them that way. Thus you’ve given up everything for decent easily avoidable damage. Also, while other attack, you only need to dodge one to avoid complete dams, with Phatasam, you need to waste more dodge on them if they are still there and you can only dodge partial of the dams they deal upon the time summoning. (Izerker, Iduelist)

B – This is quite possibly the worst idea I’ve ever heard regarding Phantasms and Mesmers. Additionally it would severely kitten Phantasm Mesmers in sPvP and PvE.

C- Meh…This idea might work in sPvP Only but the Phantasms don’t disappear they Auto Shatter and AOE Mind Wrack Plus AOE 5 Stacks of Confusion or 5 Stacks of Terror.

Thanks for the input. Here is why I think it should be implanted. Choose one out of three.

A/ Nerf Phantasm damages due to the fact that they acts as both weapon skill and Pets mechanic. All of the attack, save Phatasm can only attack one, will be put on CD, and can not be used as body block. While with the Phatasm, they can repeat attack by themselves as long as you are not using your Shatter, they are still there and keep attacking. They definitely need no buff in term of attack dams.

C/ The idea is to force out Shatter on Mesmer, whether they use it to make most use of Phatasm or let them go wasted. So they have more actives play rather than let all the Phantasm do most of the works.

B/ If choose A or C, ignore B.

This is a nerf mesmer thread, whether you intended for it to be or not.

You can dodge the attack of the phantasm and you can even mitigate the summon with blind/block, yet you are not satisfied, you think that it isn’t fair;

Can you dodge any of those pets/spirits/weapons/etc being summoned? No ?
Can they be blocked/blinded out of a summon? No?
I guess the fairly recent mesmer changes may not be as fair as they seem to be, why aren’t you asking for those to be reverted to be in line with every other profession?

Grenade kit is a fine damage source;
Turrets deal aoe Damage;
Guardian Weapons deal damage.
Spirits ARE very much a damage source (burning)

Not all phantasms are purely damage oriented; take for instance the torch phantasm the phantasmal defender phantasmal disenchanter Phantasmal warden.

You’re asking for a nerf to all mesmer weapons.
You are asking for a nerf to all mesmer specs too.

Changing phantasms to be dodgeable on cast, would be effectively neutering all mesmers the most under represented class in pax (zero) and high/low end Tpvp play.

What all of this has to do with Gernade kit? And Turret too?

Turret is useless. They don’t move. They take Ults to take. They are easy to dodge. They random attack nearby enemy, not the one you are working on.

Stealth.9324:

What all of this has to do with Gernade kit? And Turret too?

Turret is useless. They don’t move. They take Ults to take. They are easy to dodge. They random attack nearby enemy, not the one you are working on.

Yeah, see how ridiculous it is when people complain about things that don’t need to be complained about…?

If you don’t want a phantasm to attack more than once, kill it. Just like if you don’t want a spirit ranger to be able to insta-res his team, kill his spirit Elite, or if you don’t want to get hit by Net Turrets you destroy the turret.

These are only a few examples.
The biggest problem with pets in this game is that nobody seems to realize that you don’t have to tunnel-vision the actual player to beat him.
Cleave the pets first.
If someone’s entire build is supported by pets, destroying the pets will do you well.

Jackums.3496:

Aphoticrain.8420:

I’m not sure where some of you guys are getting this as a “Nerf Mesmer” thread, because that is not what I am aiming for but instead I wanted to address a certain mechanic of the game that seemed odd to me as I prefer to have skills dodge-able so that there is more thought to there use.

What you’re requesting is the definition of a nerf. You’re asking for a mechanic to be changed in a way that will negatively affect the class.

That’s requesting a nerf, regardless of how you try and sugarcoat it.

That aside, the request itself is void of any real justification or reasoning. Mesmers have some of the worst sustain in the game. Phantasms make up the majority of their damage outside of their burst, and that’s why you’ll find shatter builds shattering their clones, then summoning their phantasms whilst they wait for the Mind Wrack cooldown. Making the phantasms, which already have a very predictable cast animation, capable of being canceled simply by dodging is, to put it bluntly, stupid.

Furthermore, it conflicts with the summon mechanics of every other AI in the game, which cannot be dodged either. In fact, phantasms are the only summons that can be blinded, are single target, and require an enemy to be cast.

Okay. Taking just those sentences I am but if that’s all you’ve read then your missing what I am saying. I have given my reasons for why and I’m sorry if its not “real justification or reasoning” enough for you.

The problem I see is that you all point to summing mechanic however you also bring up that the Mesmer summons don’t work like any other class mechanic. Thus is it really right to call them summons? Because it seems to me that the Phantasm is a thing of its own that stands apart form weapons, spirits, what have you.

As to this whole "nerf " thing I have asked people if they would reconsider there view if the cast time was shorter and less easy to notice? Or maybe if it did more dmg and didn’t have the pause between summon and attack? Someone else suggested having it attack once for a large amount of dmg.

Why does wanting something changed have to automatically mean I want the class to be strung up and burned instead of just wanting something changed.

You are in essence calling for Negative changes to the mechanic of the mesmer class
You sure aren’t calling for buffs for the mesmer class.

“https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/mesmer/”
Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

The mechanic works fine, it is a l2p issue, sorry.
No changes you/others have suggested sound even plausible.
They are for sure all Negative changes(Nerfs) so you can stop saying
you’re not calling for nerfs.

Darnis.4056:

You are in essence calling for Negative changes to the mechanic of the mesmer class
You sure aren’t calling for buffs for the mesmer class.

“https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/mesmer/”
Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

The mechanic works fine, it is a l2p issue, sorry.
No changes you/others have suggested sound even plausible.
They are for sure all Negative changes(Nerfs) so you can stop saying
you’re not calling for nerfs.

Alrighty then. I suppose all forums come to this if you do not wish to even consider the possibility of change then I have no ground in which to stop you. I was not looking for buff nor nerf however I can see that you are set in what you perceive I am saying. I thank you for your input.

Edit:
I do have a better understanding of Phantasms after making this thread and I understand why it is immune to dodge. My opinion is that is should be changed since it promotes lazy play (It is not the only mechanic that does this but the one I focused on in this thread) but to each his own. At the end of the day Anet will do what it sees as is best for the class and the game as a whole.

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

You did not get that right.
It is fair the way it is now, as you get one opportunity to dodge damage (The phantasm’s attack), just like I have one opportunity to dodge damage applied by you (Your attack).

If you could dodge the summoning of a phantasm to negate the spawn entirely, you would have two chances to dodge the same attack. As you would be allowed to miss dodging the summon and still avoid damage by dodging the first attack.

Ok. If only the attack of the phantasm can cause damage to the other player thats fair for me. Thanks for the answer.
But the phantasm should only attack once.

sure so letz make everyone’s attack then just hit once.

Aphoticrain.8420:

Darnis.4056:

You are in essence calling for Negative changes to the mechanic of the mesmer class
You sure aren’t calling for buffs for the mesmer class.

“https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/mesmer/”
Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

The mechanic works fine, it is a l2p issue, sorry.
No changes you/others have suggested sound even plausible.
They are for sure all Negative changes(Nerfs) so you can stop saying
you’re not calling for nerfs.

Alrighty then. I suppose all forums come to this if you do not wish to even consider the possibility of change then I have no ground in which to stop you. I was not looking for buff nor nerf however I can see that you are set in what you perceive I am saying. I thank you for your input.

Edit:
I do have a better understanding of Phantasms after making this thread and I understand why it is immune to dodge. My opinion is that is should be changed since it promotes lazy play (It is not the only mechanic that does this but the one I focused on in this thread) but to each his own. At the end of the day Anet will do what it sees as is best for the class and the game as a whole.

look why dont u go ahead and make a mesmer. make a phantasm build and lets see how “lazy” that profession really is.it seems like u are not very familiar with our class at all. go ahead and try for yourself. i am a mesmer and i get hit by phantasm too, but that not what kills me.
they maybe hit me once, but then i dodge. how about backstab? can u dodge that?if the thief is invis and backstabs u, there was no dodge ther either.
idk, but to me it sounds like a mesmer beat u really badly in spvp. yeah there are some really great players out there and i hope u never run into osicat or pyro there.

if anet would listen to u and go for such nerfs or changes, u would maybe be pleased with yourself, but not every mesmer wants to use phantasm builds and all the changes would affect them pretty badly. for me as acondition mesmer, i need a phantasm deal at least a little bit of direct dmg. this nerf would affect me pretty bad.

Aphoticrain.8420:

My opinion is that is should be changed since it promotes lazy play

I keep seeing the same handful of forum goers regurgitating the same rabble… they throw out puerile words like, “Lazy”, “Boring”, “Faceroll”… etc.

Guess what…

There are people who actually enjoy playing those specs… That kind of playstyle appeals to them. Your opinion (yes it is an opinion) isn’t law.

“Butt JASHAR iz juss AI do wing awl di werk… waahn buttan… iz tooo eezee… MEzmir iZ fayssrowl… iz no feer” WAAAAAAAAA

Get over yourselves, the game isn’t hard.

The spec isn’t even good against good players.

I keep seeing the same players crying and crying over nothing. A dead spec which no one with a brain takes seriously. If anything, Phantasm Mesmers need buffs. They weren’t viable before this terrible meta and they aren’t viable now either.

You’re all very bad for complaining about Phantasm Mesmers, and you should feel bad about yourselves.

selan.8354:

Aphoticrain.8420:

Darnis.4056:

You are in essence calling for Negative changes to the mechanic of the mesmer class
You sure aren’t calling for buffs for the mesmer class.

“https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/mesmer/”
Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

The mechanic works fine, it is a l2p issue, sorry.
No changes you/others have suggested sound even plausible.
They are for sure all Negative changes(Nerfs) so you can stop saying
you’re not calling for nerfs.

Alrighty then. I suppose all forums come to this if you do not wish to even consider the possibility of change then I have no ground in which to stop you. I was not looking for buff nor nerf however I can see that you are set in what you perceive I am saying. I thank you for your input.

Edit:
I do have a better understanding of Phantasms after making this thread and I understand why it is immune to dodge. My opinion is that is should be changed since it promotes lazy play (It is not the only mechanic that does this but the one I focused on in this thread) but to each his own. At the end of the day Anet will do what it sees as is best for the class and the game as a whole.

look why dont u go ahead and make a mesmer. make a phantasm build and lets see how “lazy” that profession really is.it seems like u are not very familiar with our class at all. go ahead and try for yourself. i am a mesmer and i get hit by phantasm too, but that not what kills me.
they maybe hit me once, but then i dodge. how about backstab? can u dodge that?if the thief is invis and backstabs u, there was no dodge ther either.
idk, but to me it sounds like a mesmer beat u really badly in spvp. yeah there are some really great players out there and i hope u never run into osicat or pyro there.

if anet would listen to u and go for such nerfs or changes, u would maybe be pleased with yourself, but not every mesmer wants to use phantasm builds and all the changes would affect them pretty badly. for me as acondition mesmer, i need a phantasm deal at least a little bit of direct dmg. this nerf would affect me pretty bad.

I have played the mesmer as shocking as it might seem. I’m no expert people have rolled my face on the ground many a time and many more have yet to do so. I generally have respect for those people as they know their class well. Is loosing fun no but as long as I did what I could I couldn’t care less about how bad or good I was beaten. I don’t see how running into these people is going to hurt me? But all of this is really beside the point.

I don’t mean they are going to listen to me I mean exactly the opposite. I am one person who as expressed my views and watched as the mobs started to form. I’m glad at least the start of this thread felt like an actual conversation where views were shared and given with at least a little bit of curtesy and to those people I thank you.

if we ignore the whole first part of what you have said and then focus on:

for me as acondition mesmer, i need a phantasm deal at least a little bit of direct dmg. this nerf would affect me pretty bad.

You have an actual argument that ties into this thread and I wish you had expanded on that instead of trying to invent my motives.