Guild Wars 2

Jasher.6580:

Aphoticrain.8420:

My opinion is that is should be changed since it promotes lazy play

I keep seeing the same handful of forum goers regurgitating the same rabble… they throw out puerile words like, “Lazy”, “Boring”, “Faceroll”… etc.

Guess what…

There are people who actually enjoy playing those specs… That kind of playstyle appeals to them. Your opinion (yes it is an opinion) isn’t law.

“Butt JASHAR iz juss AI do wing awl di werk… waahn buttan… iz tooo eezee… MEzmir iZ fayssrowl… iz no feer” WAAAAAAAAA

Get over yourselves, the game isn’t hard.

The spec isn’t even good against good players.

I keep seeing the same players crying and crying over nothing. A dead spec which no one with a brain takes seriously. If anything, Phantasm Mesmers need buffs. They weren’t viable before this terrible meta and they aren’t viable now either.

You’re all very bad for complaining about Phantasm Mesmers, and you should feel bad about yourselves.

Did I ever say it wasn’t my opinion? I think we all know what the definition of opinion is here.

Aphoticrain.8420:

selan.8354:

Aphoticrain.8420:

Darnis.4056:

You are in essence calling for Negative changes to the mechanic of the mesmer class
You sure aren’t calling for buffs for the mesmer class.

“https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/mesmer/”
Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

The mechanic works fine, it is a l2p issue, sorry.
No changes you/others have suggested sound even plausible.
They are for sure all Negative changes(Nerfs) so you can stop saying
you’re not calling for nerfs.

Alrighty then. I suppose all forums come to this if you do not wish to even consider the possibility of change then I have no ground in which to stop you. I was not looking for buff nor nerf however I can see that you are set in what you perceive I am saying. I thank you for your input.

Edit:
I do have a better understanding of Phantasms after making this thread and I understand why it is immune to dodge. My opinion is that is should be changed since it promotes lazy play (It is not the only mechanic that does this but the one I focused on in this thread) but to each his own. At the end of the day Anet will do what it sees as is best for the class and the game as a whole.

look why dont u go ahead and make a mesmer. make a phantasm build and lets see how “lazy” that profession really is.it seems like u are not very familiar with our class at all. go ahead and try for yourself. i am a mesmer and i get hit by phantasm too, but that not what kills me.
they maybe hit me once, but then i dodge. how about backstab? can u dodge that?if the thief is invis and backstabs u, there was no dodge ther either.
idk, but to me it sounds like a mesmer beat u really badly in spvp. yeah there are some really great players out there and i hope u never run into osicat or pyro there.

if anet would listen to u and go for such nerfs or changes, u would maybe be pleased with yourself, but not every mesmer wants to use phantasm builds and all the changes would affect them pretty badly. for me as acondition mesmer, i need a phantasm deal at least a little bit of direct dmg. this nerf would affect me pretty bad.

I have played the mesmer as shocking as it might seem. I’m no expert people have rolled my face on the ground many a time and many more have yet to do so. I generally have respect for those people as they know their class well. Is loosing fun no but as long as I did what I could I couldn’t care less about how bad or good I was beaten. I don’t see how running into these people is going to hurt me? But all of this is really beside the point.

I don’t mean they are going to listen to me I mean exactly the opposite. I am one person who as expressed my views and watched as the mobs started to form. I’m glad at least the start of this thread felt like an actual conversation where views were shared and given with at least a little bit of curtesy and to those people I thank you.

if we ignore the whole first part of what you have said and then focus on:

for me as acondition mesmer, i need a phantasm deal at least a little bit of direct dmg. this nerf would affect me pretty bad.

You have an actual argument that ties into this thread and I wish you had expanded on that instead of trying to invent my motives.

i actually mentioned that before, but here again. u nerf a core mecanin that is pert in every build. it affects the builds that arent specced into that mechanic way more than then the classes that are. the result would be even less build variety and people being forced to go phantasm as it is the only build left that has ok dps…when confusion was nerfed to the ground in wvw to hit the glam builds, a ton of builds were affected. other condition builds were nearly destroyed and we had to improvise a lot in order to not be forced to buy new gear instead of the rabid gear. a lot of people swappped to phantasm and shatter builds because of the nerf.
i went to a reflection/condition build instead and i still barely do direct dmg appart from my focus phantasm iwarlock. if he would hit only once or had its dmg nerfed it is useless for me.

how about instead of asking for a nerf asking for buffs for your class that seems to have troubles to dodge the phantasms.maybe get some more evade skills or block skills.

selan.8354:

Aphoticrain.8420:

selan.8354:

Aphoticrain.8420:

Darnis.4056:

You are in essence calling for Negative changes to the mechanic of the mesmer class
You sure aren’t calling for buffs for the mesmer class.

“https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/mesmer/”
Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

The mechanic works fine, it is a l2p issue, sorry.
No changes you/others have suggested sound even plausible.
They are for sure all Negative changes(Nerfs) so you can stop saying
you’re not calling for nerfs.

Alrighty then. I suppose all forums come to this if you do not wish to even consider the possibility of change then I have no ground in which to stop you. I was not looking for buff nor nerf however I can see that you are set in what you perceive I am saying. I thank you for your input.

Edit:
I do have a better understanding of Phantasms after making this thread and I understand why it is immune to dodge. My opinion is that is should be changed since it promotes lazy play (It is not the only mechanic that does this but the one I focused on in this thread) but to each his own. At the end of the day Anet will do what it sees as is best for the class and the game as a whole.

look why dont u go ahead and make a mesmer. make a phantasm build and lets see how “lazy” that profession really is.it seems like u are not very familiar with our class at all. go ahead and try for yourself. i am a mesmer and i get hit by phantasm too, but that not what kills me.
they maybe hit me once, but then i dodge. how about backstab? can u dodge that?if the thief is invis and backstabs u, there was no dodge ther either.
idk, but to me it sounds like a mesmer beat u really badly in spvp. yeah there are some really great players out there and i hope u never run into osicat or pyro there.

if anet would listen to u and go for such nerfs or changes, u would maybe be pleased with yourself, but not every mesmer wants to use phantasm builds and all the changes would affect them pretty badly. for me as acondition mesmer, i need a phantasm deal at least a little bit of direct dmg. this nerf would affect me pretty bad.

I have played the mesmer as shocking as it might seem. I’m no expert people have rolled my face on the ground many a time and many more have yet to do so. I generally have respect for those people as they know their class well. Is loosing fun no but as long as I did what I could I couldn’t care less about how bad or good I was beaten. I don’t see how running into these people is going to hurt me? But all of this is really beside the point.

I don’t mean they are going to listen to me I mean exactly the opposite. I am one person who as expressed my views and watched as the mobs started to form. I’m glad at least the start of this thread felt like an actual conversation where views were shared and given with at least a little bit of curtesy and to those people I thank you.

if we ignore the whole first part of what you have said and then focus on:

for me as acondition mesmer, i need a phantasm deal at least a little bit of direct dmg. this nerf would affect me pretty bad.

You have an actual argument that ties into this thread and I wish you had expanded on that instead of trying to invent my motives.

i actually mentioned that before, but here again. u nerf a core mecanin that is pert in every build. it affects the builds that arent specced into that mechanic way more than then the classes that are. the result would be even less build variety and people being forced to go phantasm as it is the only build left that has ok dps…when confusion was nerfed to the ground in wvw to hit the glam builds, a ton of builds were affected. other condition builds were nearly destroyed and we had to improvise a lot in order to not be forced to buy new gear instead of the rabid gear. a lot of people swappped to phantasm and shatter builds because of the nerf.
i went to a reflection/condition build instead and i still barely do direct dmg appart from my focus phantasm iwarlock. if he would hit only once or had its dmg nerfed it is useless for me.

how about instead of asking for a nerf asking for buffs for your class that seems to have troubles to dodge the phantasms.maybe get some more evade skills or block skills.

Think OP said he plays a ranger. IIRC rangers have more built in evades in their weapon skills than any other class.

colesy.8490:

Go on ANet, nerf the class that has basically zero sPvP presence so that they’re balanced in to being even more useless.

How hard is it to watch for the clearly choreographed phantasm summon, count to 1 then dodge?

What game are you playing?..mesmer for the last year has been the second most represented profession in spvp. Thief being number one.

Playing mesmer, I rarely, if ever see someone capably dodge all 3 of my phantasms. If zerker misses, the other 2 iduelists won’t.

I personally dropped mesmer because I found them easy mode. You aren’t required to keep target. Once cast the phantasms automatically target the right person and will wait patiently if they’re in stealth. They never go for turrets, and they never go for clones if the first cast is correct.

Unlike other pets, they recharge on cast, no death.

Any build that has pets do the main damage and can be used in a fire and forget manner is unsuited to PvP play. They require little skill beyond cast your damage and now evade as best you can until you need to recast. When compared with warrior who has to maintain melee ranged, dodge heavy damage when they see it, snare, heal and back to maintain melee range against professions with passive speed boosts..it highlights just how easy mode mesmers are. No skill. Brainless and to me personally, no fun because of it. Just my 2 cents worth.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Playing mesmer, I rarely, if ever see someone capably dodge all 3 of my phantasms. If zerker misses, the other 2 iduelists won’t.

I personally dropped mesmer because I found them easy mode. You aren’t required to keep target. Once cast the phantasms automatically target the right person and will wait patiently if they’re in stealth. They never go for turrets, and they never go for clones if the first cast is correct.

Unlike other pets, they recharge on cast, no death.

Any build that has pets do the main damage and can be used in a fire and forget manner is unsuited to PvP play. They require little skill beyond cast your damage and now evade as best you can until you need to recast. When compared with warrior who has to maintain melee ranged, dodge heavy damage when they see it, snare, heal and back to maintain melee range against professions with passive speed boosts..it highlights just how easy mode mesmers are. No skill. Brainless and to me personally, no fun because of it. Just my 2 cents worth.

That problem is not related with mesmers only but with all classes that uses AI tho fight for them. ANet should look at the importance of the AI in PvP and rework classes after that.
Right now the only pvp you see is when a warrior fights another warrior (if there is no rock dog presente ofc). In PvP there are more PvE than PvP.

Even if ANet dont deep rework the AI on classes, they at least should change their efects/damage.

Lol? Do you even play mesmer? Try playing a phantasm mesmer in this meta and tell me how successful you are. Your about a month and a half late on this one.

Jackums.3496:

If “passive play” is your issue with phantasms, you should also be calling for nerfs to every AI in the game (minions, spirits, spirit weapons, pets, etc). You should also be requesting nerfs to all of the passive benefits Thieves get in stealth. There’s far more passive play in this game than just phantasms. It’s not an issue specific to them. Really, you should be posting in one of the many topics that already exist that are complaining about passive benefits and AI. I fail to see why a topic specific to phantasms was necessary, especially considering Mesmers are bottom tier in the meta right now and phantasm builds have never been popular in tPvP anyway. Phantasm builds are a good hotjoin and 1v1 troll build, but they’re not meta. Phantams in shatter builds only ever get one hit off before being shattered and have greatly reduced damaged due to no trait investments.

Ergo, I fail to see the issue. You’re justified in wanting the passive play in this game to be changed, but not in creating a topic targeting just a single facet of said play, which isn’t even the bulk of the issue right now (Spirit Rangers are).

Totaly agree with you. There is much passive (no skill) play in this game.

Darnis.4056:

TL;DR The equivalent of that for other classes would be:
Make all Pet summons in combat only.
Make all Elemental weapon/Kit Summons in combat Only.
Make Engineer Turret casts dodgeable,
Make Necromancer minion casts dodgeable.
Make Guardian Weapon Summon casts Dodgeable.
Make Ranger Pet summons and Spirit summons dodgeable

Okay, but only if your PZerker hits for 800 like my Sword of Wrath. That would be balanced, right?

silentnight warrior.2714:

Jackums.3496:

If “passive play” is your issue with phantasms, you should also be calling for nerfs to every AI in the game (minions, spirits, spirit weapons, pets, etc). You should also be requesting nerfs to all of the passive benefits Thieves get in stealth. There’s far more passive play in this game than just phantasms. It’s not an issue specific to them. Really, you should be posting in one of the many topics that already exist that are complaining about passive benefits and AI. I fail to see why a topic specific to phantasms was necessary, especially considering Mesmers are bottom tier in the meta right now and phantasm builds have never been popular in tPvP anyway. Phantasm builds are a good hotjoin and 1v1 troll build, but they’re not meta. Phantams in shatter builds only ever get one hit off before being shattered and have greatly reduced damaged due to no trait investments.

Ergo, I fail to see the issue. You’re justified in wanting the passive play in this game to be changed, but not in creating a topic targeting just a single facet of said play, which isn’t even the bulk of the issue right now (Spirit Rangers are).

Totaly agree with you. There is much passive (no skill) play in this game.

That’s what the game is build around. It’s not going away, as it would require a massive overhaul. They can either nerf all AI damage to the point of uselessness, so it’s a non-factor or just… do nothing and let those few dozen people who still PvP just do their thing, who cares.

Most classes have more access to blinds that Mesmers have reliable condition removal, on lower cooldowns than phantasm summons.

The casts (currently excluding the zerker) are fairly well telegraphed.

Making the most of their damage takes 35 trait points minimum.
That is not a cheap investment.
Especially with the Mesmer, since the baselines for their skills are actually quite poor.
Without one, or both of the illusion damage increase traits, phantasm damage is rather poor.
Even with the both traits, their damage isn’t close to the equivalent skills of other classes.

These are also weapon skills that are the damage dealers, not utilities. They also tend to be the hardest hitting on their sets, traited or no.

And last but not least, they were for a very brief period, made dodgeble (the same patch that made them susceptible to LOS) and it basically made playing a Phantasm build impossible. This was changed after few days.

One very legitimate complaint I rarely see brought up is the fact a Mesmer can be stealthed while phantasms land hits.
It promotes cheesey fighting by spaming phantasms and stealth.
If Phantasm damage were to be considered coming from the Mesmer (and by extension actually benefit from sigils and other such effects again) I’d be all the happier for it.

Oh, and Phantasm builds were never viable in tpvp. Nothing but shatter ever has been since launch and if the trend in patches is anything to go by, never will be.
Hotjoints don't account for tiddle, stop pretending they do.

clipnotdone.9634:

One very legitimate complaint I rarely see brought up is the fact a Mesmer can be stealthed while phantasms land hits.
It promotes cheesey fighting by spaming phantasms and stealth.[/spoiler]

That is so true.

Everybody referencing how easy mode Phantasm mesmer is you’re literally one patch cycle too late.

ESPECIALLY CntrlAltDel who obviously has not even touched the game in months or even a year. Most represented class in pvp?
0 mesmers in Pax, 1/10 mesmers most tournament matches.
THIEF EVEN MORE REPRESENTED? Are you kidding me?
Theres usually 4/10 necros in most matches 2-4/10Rangers and 2-4/10 Warriors.

Yes it WAS an ezmode faceroll build, There have been Nerfs.
No one even plays phantasm mesmer outside of hotjoin(As it has always been)
No it’s not a reason for completely unjustifiable classwide nerfs to the mesmer class.

I don’t play a phantasm mesmer because it’s boring and low skill ceiling.
I use Phantasms because EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME FOR MESMER
has phantasms on it.

Phantasm mesmer goes to stealth? .. Kill his phantasms. Most classes can oneshot
aoe them.

If you have two duelists out AND a berserker your opponent has been doing nothing for around 20 seconds.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Playing mesmer, I rarely, if ever see someone capably dodge all 3 of my phantasms. If zerker misses, the other 2 iduelists won’t.

I personally dropped mesmer because I found them easy mode. You aren’t required to keep target. Once cast the phantasms automatically target the right person and will wait patiently if they’re in stealth. They never go for turrets, and they never go for clones if the first cast is correct.

Unlike other pets, they recharge on cast, no death.

Any build that has pets do the main damage and can be used in a fire and forget manner is unsuited to PvP play. They require little skill beyond cast your damage and now evade as best you can until you need to recast. When compared with warrior who has to maintain melee ranged, dodge heavy damage when they see it, snare, heal and back to maintain melee range against professions with passive speed boosts..it highlights just how easy mode mesmers are. No skill. Brainless and to me personally, no fun because of it. Just my 2 cents worth.

If you were managing to get all three Phantasms out at all, you are fighting noobs.
I can’t remember the last time that either me or any mesmer I’ve fought actually managed to produce three phantasms before any of them, or the mesmer, died.

Especially Duelist, if you’re popping out Duelists and no one’s killing them, the problem is your opponent not the class mechanic.

Darnis.4056:

If you have two duelists out AND a berserker your opponent has been doing nothing for around 20 seconds.

You made good point there. The player needs to focus on the AI first to be able to win the fight. That leads to AoE Spam to face the amount of clones, ilusions and phantasms the mesmers can have in a short time (this is not only a mesmer problem, but with all the classes that use AI). So the meta we have right now is to face that problem.
If people want AoE spam nerfed (i do), they should realize why we need AoE spam right now.
Before this meta mesmers were in a very good place in pvp. That only changed with the current meta.
But there should not be a fix to AoE spam before they fix the problems with AI.
We got this meta for a reason

Not really, the reason for this meta is that necromancers/engies/Spirit Rangers(before it was beastmasters before that it was traps) were unoptimal,
FAST FORWARD TO RECENT BUFFS to necromancers
FAST FORWARD TO RECENT BUFFS to spirits
FAST FORWARD TO RECENT NERFS to phantasm mesmers
Now with dhuumfire and torment buffs Necromancers are sitting in a great place, they see more play therefore “Aoe Condi Meta”

I don’t play these so called “ai” specs because they take no skill whatsoever to play, NOR are they in any way effective at even mid tier levels of play.

Condition damage needs more soft counters, when that happends
AND IT WILL FOR SURE AFTER PAX
The meta will shift back slightly to mesmer..
But never again like it was before when Mesmers were a superior master race.

Just kill it, unless they’re going signet and 10 inspiration for 70% phant HP they die super easily, especially if it’s a glass cannon mesmer.

If they’re using the hp Signet well then… stop complaining about Hotjoin lmao.

I think it would be fair to let phantasms be dodged. But to compensate, they should have some more direct effect than just being boring AI that you spam up whenever they are off cl.

No it would not be fair to let them be dodged, stop being bad and learn to dodge the burst by waiting ONE SECOND.

YuiRS.8129:

Darnis.4056:

TL;DR The equivalent of that for other classes would be:
Make all Pet summons in combat only.
Make all Elemental weapon/Kit Summons in combat Only.
Make Engineer Turret casts dodgeable,
Make Necromancer minion casts dodgeable.
Make Guardian Weapon Summon casts Dodgeable.
Make Ranger Pet summons and Spirit summons dodgeable

Okay, but only if your PZerker hits for 800 like my Sword of Wrath. That would be balanced, right?

Can our auto attacks hit for as much as yours when we are both full zerkers too?

Bloody hell. What’s with all these moronic whine threads popping up over the past 2 days? Quit bumping this excrement!

Other people keep telling me phantasm summons are dodgable… But because i test it daily ankitten ot insane, ican tell thatthey arent :/.

Maybe it would be something if the target is evading, the cast simply gets interupted, put on a 3 second cooldown.

Having a whole skill on cooldown because someone randomly evaded or evaded it would be really annoying/overpowered, especially if its your main source of damage :o

edit @Pyro: the whine threads come from the spvp forum. Seems like alot of mods are moving “pvp related question to profession X” to their profession forums :/. Not sure i its a good or bad thing, seeing as those threads are based on pvp.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

colesy.8490:

Go on ANet, nerf the class that has basically zero sPvP presence so that they’re balanced in to being even more useless.

How hard is it to watch for the clearly choreographed phantasm summon, count to 1 then dodge?

What game are you playing?..mesmer for the last year has been the second most represented profession in spvp. Thief being number one.

Your statement is completely inaccurate. Clearly you don’t tPvP. Thus, the question now is what game are you playing?

silentnight warrior.2714:

clipnotdone.9634:

One very legitimate complaint I rarely see brought up is the fact a Mesmer can be stealthed while phantasms land hits.
It promotes cheesey fighting by spaming phantasms and stealth.[/spoiler]

That is so true.

And how is that any different from any other class that can stealth and channel an attack???? Thieves abuse this more than any other profession and yet you wine about a mesmer doing it.

Loco.4561:

silentnight warrior.2714:

clipnotdone.9634:

One very legitimate complaint I rarely see brought up is the fact a Mesmer can be stealthed while phantasms land hits.
It promotes cheesey fighting by spaming phantasms and stealth.[/spoiler]

That is so true.

And how is that any different from any other class that can stealth and channel an attack???? Thieves abuse this more than any other profession and yet you wine about a mesmer doing it.

I was just aggreing with that statment. And i agree with that because its true. Its a legit complain that rarely is brought up. Read all the sentence.

Darnis.4056:

Not really, the reason for this meta is that necromancers/engies/Spirit Rangers(before it was beastmasters before that it was traps) were unoptimal,
FAST FORWARD TO RECENT BUFFS to necromancers
FAST FORWARD TO RECENT BUFFS to spirits
FAST FORWARD TO RECENT NERFS to phantasm mesmers

All those things made the meta change to the meta we have today. That is why i said that mesmers were in a very good place before the new meta.

Has you said as soon as they fix the meta (conditions spam) (those two first points) the mesmer will be good again “But never again like it was before when Mesmers were a superior master race” because of the 3 point you said.

The only way I see it being fair to dodge Phantasm Summons is if blind and block no longer negated them.

Those of you who play thieves, warriors, and the “OP flavor of the month” really want me to stop playing mesmer. The more nerfs you cry for — and get, for some reason — the more I kill you with your own profession. It’s like you want to be further humiliated.

1. It’s dodge-able because out of phantasm, there’s literally nothing else to deal damage.
2. Phantasms are made to be strong at this aspect because that’s the whole point of the class mechanic. Spend 1 second auto-hit phantasm or your apathy kills you; same as trying to chase bunker ranger will continuously wears out your hp until you’re dead… on the fact that you could have just ignored and survived, same as trying to chase perma-stealth thief and so on.
3. In conclusion, phantasm is like a separated damage entity, not the mesmer itself. That’s why they’re treated differently from other skills. They’re killable, kitable, ccable and so on. Despite anet’s defining it as an attack, it’s practically a pet. Can you dodge necro flesh golem summon? No.

Those three reasons combined => Deal with phantasm or DIE, it’s designed this way. Got it?

On a side note, if you want it to be dodge-able then make it an attack completely. If you miss your dodge, phantasms will deal full-fledged dmg on you just like any other skills when you fail to dodge and then disappear. They will work beautifully with all my stealth when you can’t see where phantasms are coming. Wanna take that? I’ll take that any day considering these phantasms won’t survive their initial attack anyway.

Unless you want it to be both dodge-able and kill-able then you’re just QQing. An ele’s lava ground can be dodged but can’t be killed. If you fail to dodge you get hit. It’s one or the other. There shouldn’t be a reason why phantasms can be dodged on cast then killed or dodged again after the cast is successful.

THINK.

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

Phantasm damage is parsed out over several attacks. In order for a phantasm to live up to its potential it must get off more than one attack. You are not disadvantaged by having to dodge more than once, if you dodge once and fail the next one that’s still 50% damage mitigation.

Perhaps you would prefer if phantasm damage was doubled or tripled but self destruct after one attack?

i have a great idea how to nerf mesmers.

anet throw out that pile of kitten called “structured” pvp from gw2. end of all the jammerlappen posts will then happen soon

hardloop von edgehoven.8512:

jammerlappen

Dear diary, today I learned a new word

Phantasms really should not be dodgeable for aforementioned reasons, and because if you think about it, most Mesmers will only have access to two Phantasms; One on their primary weaponset, another on their off-set(Max 4 if you burn 2 utility slots on lack-luster Phants). All players have 2 dodges, so if Phantasms were dodgeable, Phantasm Mesmers would be SCREWED.

Think about it. The Mesmer would be forced to draw out your invulns, your blinds, AND your dodges before summoning. There are very few attacks from a Mesmer that you would dodge:

Sword 2 (If the Mesmer didn’t root you)
Scepter 3
Staff #5
Nothing on Greatsword
Nothing on Focus
Torch 4.
Nothing on Pistol (Stun happens too quickly and doesn’t last long enough to get a Phantasm off).

At best you could make them burn 4 dodges, if they even dodge at all (Sword 2 you can walk out of, Scepter 3 can just be cleansed, Torch 4 is pretty hard to dodge especially if they run Sword main-hand to root you prior to the burn going off), meaning you can only reliably make them burn 1 dodge (Staff 5).

If this change were to happen, Phantasm Mesmers would be forced to devote 1-2 more utility slots to iDefender/iDisenchanter to make people dodge those “attacks” in order to get off their actual attacks; no other class has to burn 2 utility slots to do this.

TL;DR: Making Phantasms dodgeable would not affect non-Phantasm specs at all since they are merely bonus damage there, but would screw over pure Phant specs and be very much akin to the Confusion nerf that halted Glamour-bomb builds.

Darnis.4056:

TL;DR The equivalent of that for other classes would be:
Make all Pet summons in combat only.
Make all Elemental weapon/Kit Summons in combat Only.
Make Engineer Turret casts dodgeable,
Make Necromancer minion casts dodgeable.
Make Guardian Weapon Summon casts Dodgeable.
Make Ranger Pet summons and Spirit summons dodgeable

This ^ funny people get a whiff or create there own gossip of incoming nerfs and whammo all the threads start appearing in the Mesmer forums all from different angles all aiming to get the class nerfed.

Since when our own summons should be dependent on what the enemies are doing?

Phantasm’s attacks are supposed to be our burst dmg regardless of the mesmer build. To me, it works more like warrior’s Burst move than pets. A burst move that you can dodge/mitigate just like any other move. I don’t see the need to fix anything.

Phantasms are our one of the main sources of large damage as a class, and you can easily dodge attacks and so forth, even if you’re just spamming dodge whenever you can. It will be too easy to make the mesmer completely useless and won’t be able to stand against any classes. The phantasms need to come out at least. You can still have a choice of dodging their attacks and our shatters etc. You can’t ask the most basic main form of damage to be so easily voided

Aphoticrain.8420:

If the cast were less noticeable would you be more towards allowing it to be dodged? What I’m reading from you is that the inability to dodge attacks is a major part of Mesmer play and without it the Mesmer would not be able to compete?

They were dodgeable at one point. Even ignoring sPvP, this led to them being completely unused for the time it took until they were changed again.

Now they can still be blinded / invulnerabled / obstructed, but not blocked/dodged.

If you have a problem with that: Don’t fight a Phantasm Mesmer on home turf would be my advice, it’s a very specialized build. And quite fragile outside of it’s main application.

boredinbc.2786:

silentnight warrior.2714:

EnRohbi.2187:

data.4093:

The people arguing against dodging aren’t making any sense. If we say “mesmer don’t have a lot of damage if you can dodge it” then we could say the same for almost anything. “s/d thieves don’t have a lot of damage outside larc strike, make it undodgeable” “GS guards don’t have a lot of damage outside whirling wrath, make it 600 radius and undodgeable”. Why should any class get unavoidable skills?

Well,
Why do you believe it makes any sense that you should get two chances to dodge our attacks (At phantasm spawn and their actual attack) when we should only get one chance to dodge yours (When your damage occurs)?

You’re supposed to dodge the damage, not the setup.
It is that way with every profession.

Maybe i dont understant what you tried to say. Are you saying that is fair to have to dodge two times when you only use 1 skill/utility? Did i get this right?

Phantasm damage is parsed out over several attacks. In order for a phantasm to live up to its potential it must get off more than one attack. You are not disadvantaged by having to dodge more than once, if you dodge once and fail the next one that’s still 50% damage mitigation.

Perhaps you would prefer if phantasm damage was doubled or tripled but self destruct after one attack?

I already wrote about that in this post. Read it from the beginning till the end and you will find my opinion about that.

keenlam.4753:

Since when our own summons should be dependent on what the enemies are doing?

Phantasm’s attacks are supposed to be our burst dmg regardless of the mesmer build. To me, it works more like warrior’s Burst move than pets. A burst move that you can dodge/mitigate just like any other move. I don’t see the need to fix anything.

That means that you can dodge phantasm’s and after the 1st attack you need to create them again after the CD is over? In that case i agree with you. No fix needed.

Carighan.6758:

Now they can still be blinded / invulnerabled / obstructed, but not blocked/dodged.

That means you cannot dodge or block phantasm’s?

takatsu.9416:

Phantasms are our one of the main sources of large damage as a class, and you can easily dodge attacks and so forth, even if you’re just spamming dodge whenever you can.

That means you can dodge the phantasm’s?

If you cannot dodge/block phantasm’s they should only be hiting once because its almost a guaranted hit/damage and mostly because its not the player who is attacking but the AI.

silentnight warrior.2714:

If you cannot dodge/block phantasm’s they should only be hiting once because its almost a guaranted hit/damage and mostly because its not the player who is attacking but the AI.

By that logic an AE field should only be hitting you once, because it’s not the player attacking you but the server with it’s server-side script.

Sense?

Carighan.6758:

Sense?

In a nerf-mesmer thread? Have you that much faith in humanity? ^^’

Carighan.6758:

silentnight warrior.2714:

If you cannot dodge/block phantasm’s they should only be hiting once because its almost a guaranted hit/damage and mostly because its not the player who is attacking but the AI.

By that logic an AE field should only be hitting you once, because it’s not the player attacking you but the server with it’s server-side script.

Sense?

If you cannot dodge/block then its true, there is realy no sense in that.

Elidath.5679:

Carighan.6758:

Sense?

In a nerf-mesmer thread? Have you that much faith in humanity? ^^’

I dont think mesmers are that biased. There are some good points in this tread.

The phantasm summon skill cannot be evaded like every summon skill cant be, like necro minions or thieves guild, the only difference between these skills is just that phantasm will just chase one target, but their attacks can be evaded.

Well, imo they can nerf w/e at this moment. Mesmer can not be worse then now.

We can not create phantasms (our 1/3+ source of damage in almost any) build if target dodged, if we blinded (hi thiefs), without a target (hi thiefs again). We got thery poor condition removers, and even 1h sword attaks was nerfed (that was shock for me, cause i compared with other class sword attack damage).

So, really – it can not be worse at this moment. Mesmer = veil bot @ www, now not even portal bot in PvE, and useless guy in sPvP.

Even new confusion runes rock for engi, bot not for mesmer, lol

So… to be honest, we hove nothing to loose, and arena.net will boost us only when there will be almost no mesmers at all.

Garr.1823:

Well, imo they can nerf w/e at this moment. Mesmer can not be worse then now.

We can not create phantasms (our 1/3+ source of damage in almost any) build if target dodged, if we blinded (hi thiefs), without a target (hi thiefs again). We got thery poor condition removers, and even 1h sword attaks was nerfed (that was shock for me, cause i compared with other class sword attack damage).

So, really – it can not be worse at this moment. Mesmer = veil bot @ www, now not even portal bot in PvE, and useless guy in sPvP.

Even new confusion runes rock for engi, bot not for mesmer, lol

So… to be honest, we hove nothing to loose, and arena.net will boost us only when there will be almost no mesmers at all.

Dont worry. After the meta changes again to what it was before mesmers will rise again. ANet dont need to do nothing except to nerf conditions (as it should).

Inutil.7634:

The phantasm summon skill cannot be evaded like every summon skill cant be, like necro minions or thieves guild, the only difference between these skills is just that phantasm will just chase one target, but their attacks can be evaded.

No, just no.
Phantam summon skill can be easy evaded, like any weapon skill. It NEED target, and mesmer must not be blinded, etc

silentnight warrior.2714:

I dont think mesmers are that biased. There are some good points in this tread.

I intended my remark more as a joke, but I have only one question to you: how are phantasm OP in any way?
Not “different to something else”, but really “OP”? because if it ain’t OP, there is no need to change anything. Originality isn’t a game balance concern.
If it is OP, in which way? Would the dodge really solve it, since phantasms are really different from one another? Would the iDefender and iDisenchanter really need this “balancing”, when they do next to no damage? How would the mesmer meta change with that (hint: it was tested already, and it wasn’t pretty)?
Well, that was more than one question in the end :P

TL;DR: don’t fix what isn’t broken. Current mechanic is intended. Some phantasms might need some adjustment, but the generic phantasm mechanic doesn’t (not in this way, anyway).

I don’t want to read trough tons of posts, nor wasting my time.
But the following things will make most phantasm summon fail.

1. Invulnerability
2. Blind
3. Dodge
4. Obstructed

The key about all this matter is in the mechanic.

When you’re summoning a clone/phantasm, you’re actually summoning an external source that is independent from the mesmer, and much more independent from the enemy.
I say that because skills that are canceled through dodges are skills that affect the enemy directly. In that case, the skill does not trigger cause it needs to reach the enemy.
But phantasms/clones/minions/spirits/pets/spirit weapons/animals from runes/weapons from eles… work differently. You’re summoning a spell that it does nothing to the enemy by itself, but provides an external source that does things by itself.

You want to change a whole mechanic of the game, as to be fair all “pets” skills from all other classes and even also ground-targeted skills should be affected by the same way.

To finally understand what I’m trying to say is to see how Mirror Blade and iZerker works. If you dodge Mirror Blade, the skill won’t create a clone.

Enormous problem that can be simply solved learning how to dodge phantasms attacks. And for the mother of god, kill them if you see the mesmer does not shatter them…

PD: You’re wrong about no other class has quick summon “pets” like mesmer. Necros can have 5 minions every 24 seconds.

The retarted phant spam spec should definitely be tuned down .That build is cheesier than d/p thief and about as dumb as a Spirit Ranger.