Guild Wars 2

For some ppl the game is abour run in big 25+ team press nr 1 feel amazing, for others the game is about on off hours run in 3-7 man teams roaming and fight other roamer teams. Sometimes even ignore a camp to favour some 2 vs 2 or 4 vs 4 fights. Mabe gang up with some thiefs and stalk a zerg of pveers and gank the tail.

I played the game sens release, in t1 nad in lower bracets, I never in those years EVER enjoyed a siege vs a Keep, I know some ppl do that al day or just LOVE sitt in a tower on a cannon for 5 h strait chewing a baguette and shoot at ppl.

My point is there is several ways to play the game, and sure warriors is the kings of pres nr 1, and 11111111111111111111 aswell. On the T1 servers there is a smal selection of mindnubbing specces and classes folowing a commander in a ball and pres a repeated sequence of buttons. Do this make these players extremly skilled?

Some ppl just enjoy smaler fights and not give a rats kitten for stonemist. I have thu spent endless hours cappping camps or ganking ppl trying to defend caravans. Not cause I care about the points, but as its fun.

/Osicat

quercus.9261:

Pyroathiest.4168:

quercus.9261:

The funny thing is he is traited rifle too. This char kills more stealthers with kill shot and volley in a group than any of my other L80. Channeled attacks own thieves. Mesmers are super easy I just shoot the clones and the attacks pierce right through to the Mesmer.

And no I don’t run him solo he is a Zerg spec only. This game isn’t played solo. If I need to scout I have a thief and a Mesmer.

Honestly, that’s pretty cute. There’s enough projectile reflects going around in any competent group that the only thing you’ll be doing with rifle is killing yourself.

Additionally, saying that mesmers are easy because you just shoot the clones immediately tells us that you run him outside of zergs…because clones don’t survive in zergs.

Umm there are no reflects because the JQ/BG hammer trains run retaliation only. What the EU guilds have been doing to beat the hammer meta is piercing projectiles and ranged kiting. I have been trying it and it is very effective vs clumped melee.

And yes whenever I see a Mesmer I literally just stand there and shoot clones and phantasms and maybe dodge a zerker. I am not mocking mesmers I am kittened off that my Mesmer is basically useless in T1 WvW.

I know how mesmers work and I have run a PU condi build. What you may not be aware of is how weak sauce it is from a warrior perspective.

What you don’t understand is not all mesmers run PU cond. Read mes forum more. Problem with cond PU is if people ignor them they are useless. my Mes has 2100-2200 power 700-800 cond 2600 armor and 23k hp. I love riffle wars. Wonna see more. Need bags. BTW. I have 4 lvl 80 guard war thief and mes.

while rolling around in a ball of 50+ players isnt that "skillfull "

it does take team coordination, and a excelent commander that leads the ball in strategical advantage points in the heat of battle.

While it is also mostly spaming 11111111, there are also critical moments (seconds) in a zerk fight that can decide the end of the battle.

elementalists calling water fields on the commander, so the rest of the group can prepare their blast finishers to fill up the entire zerks health, static fields, walls, meteor showers that wreck wall siedges.

Fast thieves that report scouts that can make a zerg ambush, or avoid a battle.

I agree, sometimes combat seems simplified, but when you pile up a bunch of players with a bunch of various skills you can get some amazing resoults.

PS: Gw2 offers a lot of different content, some like casually exploring the pve world, others like fractals/farming dungeons, some are there for just to pla spvp. You cant say “i find eating a baggette on a cannon for 5 hours boring and there for it is bad”

WvW group meta has been a bit screwed up for mesmers since condition meta, still a role with veil and shatters on the periphery but it’s dull and a group can’t carry too many. Spvp and small scale is still decent, even with condi meta.

Vukorep.3081:

while rolling around in a ball of 50+ players isnt that "skillfull "

it does take team coordination, and a excelent commander that leads the ball in strategical advantage points in the heat of battle.

While it is also mostly spaming 11111111, there are also critical moments (seconds) in a zerk fight that can decide the end of the battle.

elementalists calling water fields on the commander, so the rest of the group can prepare their blast finishers to fill up the entire zerks health, static fields, walls, meteor showers that wreck wall siedges.

Fast thieves that report scouts that can make a zerg ambush, or avoid a battle.

I agree, sometimes combat seems simplified, but when you pile up a bunch of players with a bunch of various skills you can get some amazing resoults.

PS: Gw2 offers a lot of different content, some like casually exploring the pve world, others like fractals/farming dungeons, some are there for just to pla spvp. You cant say “i find eating a baggette on a cannon for 5 hours boring and there for it is bad”

He is not saying it is bad or useless. But it is definitely boring for anyone accustom to active game play. In my experience zerg require good commander and TS. Very little depends on individual player. I like my guild zerg runs but rarely participate in pugs zergs.

quercus.9261:

The point being that on the most successful WvW servers mesmers and thieves are non-factors.

That’s a bit odd to me. In my experience mesmers are continually in short supply. Nobody plays them, and everyone needs them.

quercus.9261:

Umm there are no reflects because the JQ/BG hammer trains run retaliation only. What the EU guilds have been doing to beat the hammer meta is piercing projectiles and ranged kiting. I have been trying it and it is very effective vs clumped melee.

Running with no reflects whatsoever is rather unique, and quite foolish. Every competent group I’ve seen has several methods of providing reflects when they engage, as reflects instantly nullify many methods of high damage from range.

quercus.9261:

And yes whenever I see a Mesmer I literally just stand there and shoot clones and phantasms and maybe dodge a zerker. I am not mocking mesmers I am kittened off that my Mesmer is basically useless in T1 WvW.

You keep saying things like this that make no sense. On the one hand, you’re always talking about how you only do zerg combat, and then on the other hand you talk about times where you have the leisure to shoot clones and phantasms…which is most definitely not zerg combat.

I’ll assume that you’re just lying about only doing zerg combat. If you actually fight any skilled mesmer, you will get destroyed. If they’re PU condie, you’ll be able to escape if you’re good enough. If shatter or phantasm, not so much. No highly skilled mesmer would lose to a warrior, let alone a warrior using such a silly build as axe/shield+rifle.

Pyroathiest.4168:

quercus.9261:

The point being that on the most successful WvW servers mesmers and thieves are non-factors.

That’s a bit odd to me. In my experience mesmers are continually in short supply. Nobody plays them, and everyone needs them.

quercus.9261:

Umm there are no reflects because the JQ/BG hammer trains run retaliation only. What the EU guilds have been doing to beat the hammer meta is piercing projectiles and ranged kiting. I have been trying it and it is very effective vs clumped melee.

Running with no reflects whatsoever is rather unique, and quite foolish. Every competent group I’ve seen has several methods of providing reflects when they engage, as reflects instantly nullify many methods of high damage from range.

quercus.9261:

And yes whenever I see a Mesmer I literally just stand there and shoot clones and phantasms and maybe dodge a zerker. I am not mocking mesmers I am kittened off that my Mesmer is basically useless in T1 WvW.

You keep saying things like this that make no sense. On the one hand, you’re always talking about how you only do zerg combat, and then on the other hand you talk about times where you have the leisure to shoot clones and phantasms…which is most definitely not zerg combat.

I’ll assume that you’re just lying about only doing zerg combat. If you actually fight any skilled mesmer, you will get destroyed. If they’re PU condie, you’ll be able to escape if you’re good enough. If shatter or phantasm, not so much. No highly skilled mesmer would lose to a warrior, let alone a warrior using such a silly build as axe/shield+rifle.

Yes if I fought a Mesmer or pretty much anyone one on one I would lose with a warrior stances build. The thing with stances is that they are a force multiplier in that they are as good against 100 people as they are solo. The whole point of this was to display the fact that warrior have superior active defences in that I can crowd-surf a 50 man Zerg.

On occasion I have split up say in ruins to get bloodlust or whatever and mesmers are the least of my concerns. Normally they run in stealth groups and I il say once again: I just stand there and shoot clones and volley any stealthier that pops. Go on the thief boards and ask thieves what kind of warriors they fear and it is shield axe for stun/evis. I do just fine and stealth there are only dangerous if they outnumber.

I never run alone but you seem to think only in those terms. One on one is completely irrelevant to winning the WvW tournament

I don’t know why I am being so polite to you considering you have called me a liar. My warriors name Sajib on TC and I usually run with HEL or one of the pugmanders in Sea or early Eu times slots. TC is currently doing extremely well and leading JQ and I am doing my part.

quercus.9261:

Go on the thief boards and ask thieves what kind of warriors they fear and it is shield axe for stun/evis.

It’s because of statements like this that I just have a hard time taking anything you say seriously. Thieves and mesmers both have loads of easily accessible stunbreakers. Thieves also have a ton of blind application. No good thief or mesmer will get hit with your shield stun. If they do, they’ll break it and dodge your eviscerate.

Basically, shield/axe is a noob-stomper build. You’ll destroy people that aren’t good enough to actually dodge things, but anyone that is decent at dodging will be untouchable.

Hmm I think mesmers are weak but I definitely don’t think they are useless. Especially not in wvw. I think they probably bring the most since its all about strategy.
Just the same as playing support in league of legends, it can be lame for you because you won’t be able to kill enemies yourself but no one is ever going to turn you away from being on their team

Pyroathiest.4168:

quercus.9261:

Go on the thief boards and ask thieves what kind of warriors they fear and it is shield axe for stun/evis.

It’s because of statements like this that I just have a hard time taking anything you say seriously. Thieves and mesmers both have loads of easily accessible stunbreakers. Thieves also have a ton of blind application. No good thief or mesmer will get hit with your shield stun. If they do, they’ll break it and dodge your eviscerate.

Basically, shield/axe is a noob-stomper build. You’ll destroy people that aren’t good enough to actually dodge things, but anyone that is decent at dodging will be untouchable.

Again with the one on one. In large scale WvW fights people flow
like rivers . You don’t look at individual people you look at the flow and attack the stream and cut off the back line. I guarantee that you are not looking at skills. In fact this is the reason why Mesmer interrupt builds are never going to be anything but dueling specs in WvW. If you are not saving your dodges for avoiding the hammer train then you will likely die.

There has only been one reply on this thread that even remotely seems to understand how WvW works and it wasn’t by you.

quercus.9261:

Pyroathiest.4168:

quercus.9261:

Go on the thief boards and ask thieves what kind of warriors they fear and it is shield axe for stun/evis.

It’s because of statements like this that I just have a hard time taking anything you say seriously. Thieves and mesmers both have loads of easily accessible stunbreakers. Thieves also have a ton of blind application. No good thief or mesmer will get hit with your shield stun. If they do, they’ll break it and dodge your eviscerate.

Basically, shield/axe is a noob-stomper build. You’ll destroy people that aren’t good enough to actually dodge things, but anyone that is decent at dodging will be untouchable.

Again with the one on one. In large scale WvW fights people flow
like rivers . You don’t look at individual people you look at the flow and attack the stream and cut off the back line. I guarantee that you are not looking at skills. In fact this is the reason why Mesmer interrupt builds are never going to be anything but dueling specs in WvW. If you are not saving your dodges for avoiding the hammer train then you will likely die.

There has only been one reply on this thread that even remotely seems to understand how WvW works and it wasn’t by you.

You seem to ignore the fact that every time I mention 1v1 situations, it’s quoting something of yours that pertains only to 1v1.

It all smoothly went from PvE leveling to Dungeons then to WvW to end up in personal attacks and “I know this better than you” ’ .
To OP – In an orgnized setting, Mesmers will be phased out of PvE content for most dungeons, only few being an exception (and some fractals). If a mesmer is only taken for reflect, a guardian can do it better and deal more damage, have more accessible active support.
Not sure about ranger’s dps compared to mesmer’s in a speedclear setting, but I guess you’d better take a ranger for the prec buffs rather than a mesmer (rangers do have reflects too).

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Pyroathiest just went in.

:O /cheer @

Miku Lawrence.6329:

It all smoothly went from PvE leveling to Dungeons then to WvW to end up in personal attacks and “I know this better than you” ’ .
To OP – In an orgnized setting, Mesmers will be phased out of PvE content for most dungeons, only few being an exception (and some fractals). If a mesmer is only taken for reflect, a guardian can do it better and deal more damage, have more accessible active support.
Not sure about ranger’s dps compared to mesmer’s in a speedclear setting, but I guess you’d better take a ranger for the prec buffs rather than a mesmer (rangers do have reflects too).

I am curios how guard has better DPS comparing to mesmer. Do you even play mesmer or guard? Fully zerked meditation guard can do good bursts but survive very little. 11k hp is not really good unless group using los spots all the time. Phat zerked mesmer can be on par dmg wise to zerk war in longer boss fights and unlike war don’t need to be melee all the time. If we are talking DPS here get 5 zerked eles with Flameswords and phase every other class out of the game including your obviosly favored war coz eles DPS is higher.

Ptolemy.5086:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

It all smoothly went from PvE leveling to Dungeons then to WvW to end up in personal attacks and “I know this better than you” ’ .
To OP – In an orgnized setting, Mesmers will be phased out of PvE content for most dungeons, only few being an exception (and some fractals). If a mesmer is only taken for reflect, a guardian can do it better and deal more damage, have more accessible active support.
Not sure about ranger’s dps compared to mesmer’s in a speedclear setting, but I guess you’d better take a ranger for the prec buffs rather than a mesmer (rangers do have reflects too).

I am curios how guard has better DPS comparing to mesmer. Do you even play mesmer or guard? Fully zerked meditation guard can do good bursts but survive very little. 11k hp is not really good unless group using los spots all the time. Phat zerked mesmer can be on par dmg wise to zerk war in longer boss fights and unlike war don’t need to be melee all the time. If we are talking DPS here get 5 zerked eles with Flameswords and phase every other class out of the game including your obviosly favored war coz eles DPS is higher.

Sorry but I don’t understand you, can you rephrase? Are we speaking real encounters or theorycal maximum dps possible (=/ real encounters).

But to answer some of what you said – I’m maining mesmer since 2nd beta of the game, I’ll pass on my pvp experience as it’s not related (103 qp) and just tell you that i’ve been running meta/speedclears for long enough to see the flaws of the mesmer class. Good thing people around me aren’t being elitist on HC prformance so my mesmer still has a place in SC dungeons.

Guard > Mesmer as long as you do not need split moves (CM, CoE lazers for funs) or need double uptime on reflects (Lupicus, Ettin in Uncategorized fractal of the top of my head). Guardian has more quick damage output than mesmer for basicly the same aviable support. Mind you, we speak of Mantra mesmers vs Obal’s guardians (the build is pinned in guardian section). Even if as you say, mesmers excell in a fictional setting of 3 spinning wardens, this isn’t always (keyword) achievable, by the time the mesmer casts his first warden the foe (not boss) will be at 70% of his health, guardian having already taking an upper hand over the mesmer.

your obviosly favored war

If I hurt your feelings about the mesmer class I am sorry. I tought forums were a place to share opinions. Too bad people are easly offended these days.

#Edited for clarification.

I don’t think that the guard will deal more damage than the mesmer. In trash mobs clobbing he may be better since the mesmer has really poor aoe’s. However the reflection uptime at the mesmer is far better and he also deals more damage thx to mantras and illusions. The guard has one reflection skill, the other stuff just absorbs the damage that could have been reflected. And the highest meta dps still has the mesmer against a single target, even when you ignore the passive damage he’d deal with TW wich obviously cannot be outdamaged that fast. It’s like a 25sec constant 100b cast on a single target.

To not see high damage numbers seems to be a problem for many players, that’s why you see only a few mesmers and engis out there. Passive damage gets ignored completly though.

Xyonon.3987:

I don’t think that the guard will deal more damage than the mesmer. In trash mobs clobbing he may be better since the mesmer has really poor aoe’s. However the reflection uptime at the mesmer is far better and he also deals more damage thx to mantras and illusions. The guard has one reflection skill, the other stuff just absorbs the damage that could have been reflected. And the highest meta dps still has the mesmer against a single target, even when you ignore the passive damage he’d deal with TW wich obviously cannot be outdamaged that fast. It’s like a 25sec constant 100b cast on a single target.

To not see high damage numbers seems to be a problem for many players, that’s why you see only a few mesmers and engis out there. Passive damage gets ignored completly though.

Some flaws in what you say. Guardians too have damage modifiers, better ones even, the matra argument isn’t valid.
Mesmer has aoe as warden still spins if target dies. (+ Sword). But weaker than guardian’s as you mentioned.
That’s exactly what I said about reflects, but only few dungeons require a large amount of them. My point still valid.
There is no “High damage numbers” in this debate, in theory mesmer > guardian but in real time dungeons that’s slightly the way around.
Not sure how you calculated Time Warp’s damage, oh, you didn’t, neither did anyone else or ever will. It’s totally subjective to the team composition and to rotations. I am not saying the damage is inexistent. It is here, it’s a big part of mesmer’s “damage”, but is comparable to the gap created on each encounter not done under Time Warp (If a guardian does X damage more on 10 enounters and mesmer does X x6 damage with Timewarp, guardian is still a better choice).

And mesmer is still played in meta, it’s handy.

This should be an other thread. OP got his answer I guess, mesmer is nt weakest, as long as there are necros and engineers.

What I feel is perhaps the mesmer’s greatest weakness is that Anet insisted on giving them a lot of unique skills.
No other class can do anything that even resembles Portal. Sure, it’s more or less just a fancy shadowstep but the mechanics and the fact that others can use it changes everything.
Time Warp: Incredibly more powerful than any other quickness skill in the game because it’s AoE.
Moa: 3x longer duration of skill lockout than pretty much any other skill in the game.
Veil: Stealth an entire zerg.

I guess they felt that because Mesmers have so many unique support skills, they had to be adjusted in other places. So we’re slow and hit like a wet noodle when not supported by phantasms or shatters. And constantly have to fiddle with clones in order to maintain the same level of damage as any other class that can just press buttons whenever they are ready and get the full effect instantly.

Sure engi is extremly weak, useless and noone plays the class. It totally sux …

btt:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Some flaws in what you say. Guardians too have damage modifiers, better ones even, the matra argument isn’t valid.
Mesmer has aoe as warden still spins if target dies. (+ Sword). But weaker than guardian’s as you mentioned.
That’s exactly what I said about reflects, but only few dungeons require a large amount of them. My point still valid.
There is no “High damage numbers” in this debate, in theory mesmer > guardian but in real time dungeons that’s slightly the way around.
Not sure how you calculated Time Warp’s damage, oh, you didn’t, neither did anyone else or ever will. It’s totally subjective to the team composition and to rotations. I am not saying the damage is inexistent. It is here, it’s a big part of mesmer’s “damage”, but is comparable to the gap created on each encounter not done under Time Warp (If a guardian does X damage more on 10 enounters and mesmer does X x6 damage with Timewarp, guardian is still a better choice).

And mesmer is still played in meta, it’s handy.

To be hones my guard is still too low to really show his damage. It’s (sadly) the last class I’m gonna get up to 80. So I cannot say “no that’s not right”. I was pretty sure the ~25% damage modifier the mesmer has is higher than the guards, but it doesn’t seem like it?

Warden has only a cleave, the GS has a good aoe wich can be used for trash, if you avoid the aa by double summon or opening with the GS, it’s “ok”. However I really try to avoid the GS in general. Guard staff however is superior for aoe aswell passive damage. Still most playes stick to GS (guard) due to numbersickness.

Time Warp damage can be “calculated” by party dps x 5 wich is approximately 200’000-250’000 damage at lv 80 single target in a good organized party. But again -theory.

In the end I just want to say that I think the guard is a bit overrated and the mesmer underrated. I’m just guessing, since everyone hypes like everyone does about warrior. However I think personally more than one warrior per team is a loss of damage and a waste of a usefull party slot. I’ve got my warrior at 80 full equiped and played him quite a long time, but the only thing he gives are the banners and high damage numbers. A 2nd one? No ty.

Pyroathiest.4168:

Iavra.8510:

Cute, a PU clone-death spammer pretending to be skilled.

Cute, a player that thinks he’s better than someone else by putting down others.

I play PU condition. I also play phantasm builds. On occasion, I play shatter and lockdown as well, but I don’t like those as much.

Do you think that I’m not skilled because I prefer PU condition and phantasm builds? If so, I invite you to put up or shut up.

PU condition is a disease in this game. It requires little to no skill. I would assume anyone who plays this build does so because they lack success in a more skilled build.

Reikan.2908:

i went on my level 20 warrior and i was surviving noticably longer and dealing noticably more damage than my level 80 mesmer ever did.

i havent got much power or precision in my mesmer build but even if i tried to max it out i am sure if i max it on my warrior he would be have even more of a noticeable advantage.

i like the mesmer its a very unique class and its alot of strategy but both damage out put and defences seem quite weak to me

I made the exact opposite experience in PvE: There are far more situations where my Warrior did not survive, but with my Mesmer it was no problem. I do not feel weak, just slower than others but for the benefit of awesome survivability. I play a Staff Condition build, mainly with clones instead of phantasms.

Eg there is one Champion in the Wayfarer Foothills, in the north of the outpost with the crafting stations who spawns quite frequently, every 15 minutes or so (a Svanir walking around with three dogs) and therefor good for testing purpose. I tested to solo him with my Warrior, Guardian, Elementalist and Ranger but none of them could do this as easy as the Mesmer or even failed, better: I failed^^ All of the toons were in the 20 to 30 Level range, with only crafted or found equipment, so very low geared and nothing special. No gems, no sigils or runes, no buff foods. Sure, they do more damage than a Mesmer, but they also die much faster. Maybe a Turret Engineer could be nearly as successful as the Mesmer under these circumstances.

The key is to not rely on illusions staying alive but to count in and “work with” their death. So do not cast phantasms (or just in case everything else is on cd) but clones only. Phantasms will withstand one or two hits like clones too but have a very high cd. They are more suitable when in party and when it’s less probable to get aggro. The main condition damage comes from bleeding and burning and the three staff clones can apply these too.

Mind that even if the clones don’t do any direct damage, they can critically hit too and apply additional traited effects or do other traited things to the enemies when they are killed. Staff clones also have a significant advantage no other illusion/clone skill has: they can be cast around a corner, without the need to be in an obstacle-free LoS nor the need to hit the opponent.

To be hones my guard is still too low to really show his damage. It’s (sadly) the last class I’m gonna get up to 80. So I cannot say “no that’s not right”. I was pretty sure the ~25% damage modifier the mesmer has is higher than the guards, but it doesn’t seem like it?

10% vs burning foes
10% vs foes with a condition
X% dependent on number of boons
20% as long as you have aegis
10% with a sword equipped/5% with a greatsword equipped

With a greatsword that will be around 30% in modifiers (assuming 5% from power of the virtuous and no unscathed contender) which you can maintain permanently versus the mesmer’s unreliable modifiers (you will basically never have four mantras, and you won’t always have three illusions).

Time Warp damage can be “calculated” by party dps x 5 wich is approximately 200’000-250’000 damage at lv 80 single target in a good organized party. But again -theory.

Or you can take a thief which isn’t a dead weight class like mesmer is.

Also, time warp gives all skills half duration which is extremely irritating for me when I’m trying to do whirl evades or sword blocks, plus its extremely risky on Alphard since it reduces warden spin duration.

Time warp is honestly just bad and isn’t enough incentive to take a mesmer.

In the end I just want to say that I think the guard is a bit overrated and the mesmer underrated. I’m just guessing, since everyone hypes like everyone does about warrior. However I think personally more than one warrior per team is a loss of damage and a waste of a usefull party slot. I’ve got my warrior at 80 full equiped and played him quite a long time, but the only thing he gives are the banners and high damage numbers. A 2nd one? No ty.

Mesmers aren’t underrated, most players actually overrate them. time warp is like a 3 1/2 minute cooldown, and isn’t even that good. Mesmer reflects are mostly replaceable by a guard, and a guard actually deals damage. I have a mesmer kitted out with a berserker set, assassin’s set, centaur set, gem store armour pieces, rapiers and jade weapons (so it’s not as if I just spent two seconds playing it) and I’ve played it enough to know that it’s just a weak, easily replaceable class in most situations.

hendo.1940:

To be hones my guard is still too low to really show his damage. It’s (sadly) the last class I’m gonna get up to 80. So I cannot say “no that’s not right”. I was pretty sure the ~25% damage modifier the mesmer has is higher than the guards, but it doesn’t seem like it?

10% vs burning foes
10% vs foes with a condition
X% dependent on number of boons
20% as long as you have aegis
10% with a sword equipped/5% with a greatsword equipped

With a greatsword that will be around 30% in modifiers (assuming 5% from power of the virtuous and no unscathed contender) which you can maintain permanently versus the mesmer’s unreliable modifiers (you will basically never have four mantras, and you won’t always have three illusions).

And you are able to catch them all witout trating bad stats or missing high valuable utility? That’s a 52% modifier without the boons one, indeed nice. However aegis and burning aren’t 100% uptime either i guess. I know guard can grant both of it, but guards self aegis is the only one that stays for a longer dura and if it’s gone, it’s gone. I’m not sure about the burning though. But I guess it’s more a 50% uptimer?
Mesmer modifiers are in general 2-3 mantras + 2 illusions yes. Makes 19%. Ugh.
Also the modifiers for the mesmer are not as noticable as those for the guard (split dmg).

hendo.1940:

Time Warp damage can be “calculated” by party dps x 5 wich is approximately 200’000-250’000 damage at lv 80 single target in a good organized party. But again -theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uhFccRu2fI

Or you can take a thief which isn’t a dead weight class like mesmer is.

Also, time warp gives all skills half duration which is extremely irritating for me when I’m trying to do whirl evades or sword blocks, plus its extremely risky on Alphard since it reduces warden spin duration.

Well that thief just dealt 200’000 damage in 10 sec. That’s 20’000 DpS. And what did the rest do? I’ve seen same damage from eles so …

btt: everone is dealsing 10-20k dps. Let’s say everone deals 10k dps but the thief 20k to make him more valueable. And the worst case mesmer 5k dps … luls.

Team with 4x 10k dps + 1x 20k dps = 600’000 damage in 10sec.
Team with 4x 10k dps + 1x 5k dps + TW = 675’000 damage in 10 sec.

Ignoring the fact that a mesmer sure does more than 5k dps aswell that the thief never does double damage of the rest makes the mesmer with TW even stronger …

hendo.1940:

Time warp is honestly just bad and isn’t enough incentive to take a mesmer.

Yea sure … wake up plz and join the reality. Time Warp is the strongest dps Elite in the game. As I mentioned b4:

Xyonon.3987:

To not see high damage numbers seems to be a problem for many players, that’s why you see only a few mesmers and engis out there. Passive damage gets ignored completly though.

Like you.

hendo.1940:

Mesmers aren’t underrated, most players actually overrate them. time warp is like a 3 1/2 minute cooldown, and isn’t even that good. Mesmer reflects are mostly replaceable by a guard, and a guard actually deals damage. I have a mesmer kitted out with a berserker set, assassin’s set, centaur set, gem store armour pieces, rapiers and jade weapons (so it’s not as if I just spent two seconds playing it) and I’ve played it enough to know that it’s just a weak, easily replaceable class in most situations.

If I only think about fotm there are more than enough places where the guard just does not have enough reflection to safe the team, won’t matter against what, a huge crowd of ranged enemies like dredge, harpy, grawl or just a single target enemy where the mesmers dps anyway is higher than the guards. I don’t know what you did with your mesmer, maybe just the lack of 10k+ nubers after a 3~ sec animation.

Greez

Xyonon.3987:

Warden has only a cleave, the GS has a good aoe wich can be used for trash, if you avoid the aa by double summon or opening with the GS, it’s “ok”. However I really try to avoid the GS in general. Guard staff however is superior for aoe aswell passive damage. Still most playes stick to GS (guard) due to numbersickness.

Time Warp damage can be “calculated” by party dps x 5 wich is approximately 200’000-250’000 damage at lv 80 single target in a good organized party. But again -theory.

Sorry, I don’t want to sound rude, but staff is a terrible weapon, this discution won’t go anywhere if you think otherwise. Greatsword is the highest damage output for a guardian, not because of “high numbers”.

Your numbers for TW are either pulled of thin air or I’d like to have the calculation behind that, starting with each member’s dps and taking into account cooldown menagement and how quickness affects each autoattack (each has it’s own animation, some are slower etc). It’s no theory if it’s “that’s how i feel it to be”.

Colesy breaking my mesmer heart even more. #rolling ranger

And, the DPS elite is Fiery Greatsword.

Edit: If you checked Obal’s guardian build as I implied, you would have seen that it’s a pure berserker build taking the best possible utilities. Sorry to burst the bubble of mesmer’s “awesome” damage modifiers. At max we get 18% (3 mantras and 3 illusions) and that’s only for our autoattack mind you, phantasms do not share our %%.

Edit: It’s not a high number issue. It’s a fact – not only it deals damage faster, the damage is even bigger. It’s like saying “my ranger’s bow is awesome DPS it hits little but fast”, yet a sword would outdps the bow by 500% every second. (made up number, I don’t ranger).

Fact is that 12 stacks might grant insane passive damage if the team can make use of it. Meaning they already got 0-13 stacks might. 12 stacks might increase the damage approximately by 15-20% (depending on base power / bloodlust / banner / …) for everyone. It’s not like you can’t swap back to GS after it, but I really don’t know why Guards don’t swap for it. Staff 1 hits for 5 instead of 3 too if I’m right aswell does the GS pull and spin attack have their own CD (reason to swap?). I really don’t know how much the damage difference between staff 1 and gs 1 is. But it has to be huge to ignore the staff.

Time Warp makes every action 50% faster. Every charge time, ever after cast animation, you can even mine rich ores faster (yes, really!). It’s overall simply a 50% damage increase for everyone for 10 sec. There are only a few skills who won’t be affected really by a TW. Mostly the thief due his lack of initiative and the ele with his staff fire 2. But still the ele can go for the rota: earth 2, fire 2, fire 3, fire 5, fire 2, icebow 4, fire 2, and fill up with aa’s. The whole thing just bursts better especially the fire storm.

The main problem with TW is the fact that sometimes (especially pugs >_>, yes I play often with em’) ppl just don’t stand inside the TW and lower your passive damage. But I don’t really care, I just tell em and I hope they’ll do better next time.

I really hope for 2014 post april patch (15th) that PvE gets more of that reactive play like the nightmare court did at scarlets tower. They really resst each other, evaded etc. Yea still poor but maybe they start including the AI of NPCs so they do more reactions, splitting etc. Survivability would become more important aswell less face stacks. But yea … dreams :P Would surely buff the mesmer and sup guard.

Sorry, i’ll forget that paragraph about staff. It’s a clear no. And that comes from someone who plays almost every viable class for dungeons and fotm. Staff is a no. Never. Never. No. That’s a lie.

After 1 556 hours of playing mesmer I do know what TW does. It kills firefields. It’s a not always aviable, situational skill. You can’t base a whole class on one situational skill.

Xyonon.3987:

Fact is that 12 stacks might grant insane passive damage if the team can make use of it. Meaning they already got 0-13 stacks might. 12 stacks might increase the damage approximately by 15-20% (depending on base power / bloodlust / banner / …) for everyone. It’s not like you can’t swap back to GS after it, but I really don’t know why Guards don’t swap for it. Staff 1 hits for 5 instead of 3 too if I’m right aswell does the GS pull and spin attack have their own CD (reason to swap?). I really don’t know how much the damage difference between staff 1 and gs 1 is. But it has to be huge to ignore the staff.

So staff is a great weapon…to stack might before a fight and then swap out. 12 might is only roughly a 15% damage boost…, but for the majority of that boost you’re stuck in staff doing no damage, and so the party damage ends up lower as a result.

jefferson.8317:

Pyroathiest.4168:

Iavra.8510:

Cute, a PU clone-death spammer pretending to be skilled.

Cute, a player that thinks he’s better than someone else by putting down others.

I play PU condition. I also play phantasm builds. On occasion, I play shatter and lockdown as well, but I don’t like those as much.

Do you think that I’m not skilled because I prefer PU condition and phantasm builds? If so, I invite you to put up or shut up.

PU condition is a disease in this game. It requires little to no skill. I would assume anyone who plays this build does so because they lack success in a more skilled build.

That’s an interesting perspective. Are you willing to back up your assumption with actions?

Pyroathiest.4168:

Xyonon.3987:

Fact is that 12 stacks might grant insane passive damage if the team can make use of it. Meaning they already got 0-13 stacks might. 12 stacks might increase the damage approximately by 15-20% (depending on base power / bloodlust / banner / …) for everyone. It’s not like you can’t swap back to GS after it, but I really don’t know why Guards don’t swap for it. Staff 1 hits for 5 instead of 3 too if I’m right aswell does the GS pull and spin attack have their own CD (reason to swap?). I really don’t know how much the damage difference between staff 1 and gs 1 is. But it has to be huge to ignore the staff.

So staff is a great weapon…to stack might before a fight and then swap out. 12 might is only roughly a 15% damage boost…, but for the majority of that boost you’re stuck in staff doing no damage, and so the party damage ends up lower as a result.

jefferson.8317:

Pyroathiest.4168:

Iavra.8510:

Cute, a PU clone-death spammer pretending to be skilled.

Cute, a player that thinks he’s better than someone else by putting down others.

I play PU condition. I also play phantasm builds. On occasion, I play shatter and lockdown as well, but I don’t like those as much.

Do you think that I’m not skilled because I prefer PU condition and phantasm builds? If so, I invite you to put up or shut up.

PU condition is a disease in this game. It requires little to no skill. I would assume anyone who plays this build does so because they lack success in a more skilled build.

That’s an interesting perspective. Are you willing to back up your assumption with actions?

It’s not an interesting perspective. It’s clear as day. Ask any skilled pvp’er outside your circle of “pro mesmer forum posters” and they would agree. The build is mindless and relies strongly on non-active combat.

Its pretty narrow-minded to think everyone who plays PU is only playing it to compensate for a lack of skill/success with other builds.

Gods forbid they actually enjoy the playstyle!

Fair enough. If you enjoy the most safe, least active mesmer build then more power to you.

jefferson.8317:

It’s not an interesting perspective. It’s clear as day. Ask any skilled pvp’er outside your circle of “pro mesmer forum posters” and they would agree. The build is mindless and relies strongly on non-active combat.

Of course you’re not willing. Rarely is any forum tough guy willing to actually put their money where their mouth is. You’ll talk all day long about how one play style is superior to another, and how you’re better than other people because you play a certain build, but never are they willing to actually step up and show how good they are.

To be fair, there is a difference between PU power builds using active attacks and Phantasm/Clone-Death builds.

I’m not a PvP player but for sure i would fight you, Pyro, if only for the fun and training. Sadly, i can’t use Traveler in PvP but i will find a substitute.

Oh snap. dems fightin’ words

/instigate

Iavra.8510:

To be fair, there is a difference between PU power builds using active attacks and Phantasm/Clone-Death builds.

I’m not a PvP player but for sure i would fight you, Pyro, if only for the fun and training. Sadly, i can’t use Traveler in PvP but i will find a substitute.

Sure, I’m willing to fight anyone. You’re not a forum tough guy of course though. You haven’t been posturing, bragging, and insulting about builds people run, so you have no reason to be embarrassed or worried of the outcome.

I will gladly duel your 1v1 build.

Edit: I’m not a forum tough guy. I never post. Don’t get defensive because I insulted your build.

jefferson.8317:

I will gladly duel your 1v1 build.

Edit: I’m not a forum tough guy. I never post. Don’t get defensive because I insulted your build.

Good, for once someone willing to put out.

You aren’t a forum tough guy because of quantity, but because of the quality of your posts.

I added you, when i remember looking at my friendlist, i’ll whisper you, otherwise feel free to do so yourself.

Pyroathiest.4168:

jefferson.8317:

I will gladly duel your 1v1 build.

Edit: I’m not a forum tough guy. I never post. Don’t get defensive because I insulted your build.

Good, for once someone willing to put out.

You aren’t a forum tough guy because of quantity, but because of the quality of your posts.

I could say the exact same about you for trying to deflect points made on a forum by dueling people with an OP 1v1 build.

this thread is gonna get closed.

Ok fine..

Mesmers fit certain niches that they do better than other classes. However, they are few and far between and aren’t important enough to outweigh the disadvantages they have. In spvp, they provide little benefit. Their roles are better filled by other classes. In wvw, outside a PU roamer and veil bot, they don’t bring anything that would make you want more than 1.

You guys are cute, still seriously debating if mesmer is the weakest class.

In spvp, weakest class is Elementalist.
In wvw, weakest class is ranger or maybe engy.
In pve, weakest class is NOT mesmer.

Mesmer is not the weakest class.

mesmer is actually pretty well balanced

the proffession nerfs that proffessions need

necro: signet of spite cast time increased (it friggin 1 hits eles and mesmers in pvp)

ele: base stats increased in pvp (in wvw they r fine roamers)

mesmer: pretty well balanced, only needs bug fixes

guard: well balanced

engineer: idk
warrior: heal signet needs a 10-13 % nerf not merely 7 %
ranger : idk
thief : they gotta do smth about the 15 sec evasion spam troll thiefs, they dont kill u or smth, they spam evades all time while u tryin to kill em, make a 1-2 sec cooldown for evasion skills or smth..

jefferson.8317:

In spvp, weakest class is Elementalist.
In wvw, weakest class is ranger or maybe engy.
In pve, weakest class is NOT mesmer.

Mesmer is not the weakest class.

from what i heard rangers r good roamers, am i wrong?

They use a regen build that might be catching a nerf. They can definitely roam.

Wyrden.4713:

jefferson.8317:

In spvp, weakest class is Elementalist.
In wvw, weakest class is ranger or maybe engy.
In pve, weakest class is NOT mesmer.

Mesmer is not the weakest class.

from what i heard rangers r good roamers, am i wrong?

Depends who you talk to.

Ele is the only class I consider actually underpowered, the rest I guess their strong builds just arn’t meta.

Ele is underpowered in spvp only. Great in wvw, both for roaming and group play.

But the OP asked for a PvE point of view no? He was leveling and stuff…

Miku Lawrence.6329:

But the OP asked for a PvE point of view no? He was leveling and stuff…

As a PvE mesmer mainly, the waters fine.