Guild Wars 2

Hi guys,

A bit of background story
I’ve been playing around with the scepter post patch. It is an established fact that scepter is now our condition weapon. I was annoyed by the fact that with Deceptive Evasion + Scepter’s autoattack, I keep replacing clones so quickly that they don’t stay long enough to do anything.

But then I hit me that we have 3 traits that make clones do something when they get replaced. I connected all the dots and came up with this build. This is just my theorycrafted build, I don’t have the rabid gear to try it out yet.

So if anyone’s interested, please try it out and give me feedbacks on how effective it is and what pros/cons it has. It looks very good on paper for me, everything just synergizes so well.

So here’s the link:
WvW/PvE: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgEQNAraWlwzKq3UzgGaNJipCBHaGXX1RqQpVmBudhA-jwyAINioRqigGVCMFG1c4QGriRt+OkRNEmKdR16YAPCjWtMAMrB-e

sPvP: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAraWlwzKq3UzgGaNJipCBHaGXX1RqQpVmBudhA-TwAAzCoI+SVk7LzXyvsFNqYVxskXFA

The build is based on the idea that you keep creating clones and get your opponent to get trapped in the AoE clone death explosion cycle to inflict conditions while you yourself also put on tons of conditions on them. If they kill your clones, they get punished. If they don’t, you still actively kill your clones (no shattering here) while keep pressuring to get the same effects.
With this build the recent nerf to clone’s health in PvP is suddenly a buff

Stats:
Main stats: Condition damage, precision enough to get 40-ish% crit chance.
Health around 17-18k depending how good you are, Toughness around 1500 is enough.

Weapon:
Scepter + Pistol as main weapon set / switch to Staff to go back to the conventional condition build or for defensive utilities.

Gear:
I’d run with full Rabid on weapons and trinkets, mix some Carrion in armor to improve health if necessary otherwise you can go all-out with Rabid.

Sigils:
I’d use on-crit sigils: Sigil of Earth to get more bleeds. I use Sigil of Purity (or even better Generosity if you can afford it) on off-hand pistol for condition removal.

Runes:
1) 2x Lyssa, 4x Nightmare: for extra condition damage and precision, but the key thing here is +20% condition duration in total.
2) 6x Lyssa: more crit chance and condition removal as well as those nice golden boons when you pop Mass Invi. In group fight, be sure to switch to Signet of Inspiration to share the boons with your allies.

Slot skills:
Ether Feast; Decoy, Mirror Images for clone production (obvious choices); and since we run out of clone-generation skills, Signet of Domination is the best candicate for the last slot.

Elite skill:
Mass Invi: Good to relieve pressure off you and reposition yourself and the clones. Short CD.

Food buffs:
I see 3 things to buff here: Condition Damage, Precision, and Condition Duration.
Defensively, you can use Lemongrass if you find yourself having trouble dealing with conditions.

Traits: 10/25/10/0/25
Crippling Dissipation (Dom V), Confusing Combatants (Duel 25), and Debilitating Dissipation (Chaos V) are obvious choices here since they are the foundation of this build.

Deceptive Evasion for more clone generation. I could go with Desperate Decoy (Duel V) as well to get an extra clone but that’s too defensive, so I settle with Duel II.

As for the rest, Illusions V and IX make confusion more powerful.

Playstyle:
Always start the fight with your well-timed block as the enemy recklessly charges their first attack to burst you down meaning they now have Torment. Now with 1,7k condition damage you have, they will hesitate to move and this is when the fun begins. Start spamming clones with Scepter #1 to get their mobility severely hindered.

Positioning your clones is the key here and Crippling assists you with it. I now realise that clones produced near your enemy with Scepter #1 is such a good thing.

I can see this build requires a lot of kiting. But a careless opponent might get perma- crippled and might just blow all condition removal just to catch up with you in battle.
Even better, you have extra ways to lock down your foe in one place with Pistol #5 and Signet of Domination.

So that’s all I have for your guys.
Any thoughts and feedbacks are much appreciated.
Please discuss. Thanks

Edited: No more double clone producing on Scepter #1
Edited #2: Given feedbacks and personal experience in testing, I have updated changes to gear and elite skill to make the build more effective while staying true to the principle. Thanks all for your suggestions.

Already fixed. Changes that lead to mesmer getting worse got a higher priority for ArenaNet

Did they fix the extra bouncing trait for the clones while they were at it? :P

Does replacing clones make the clones die?
And how will you cleanse conditions off you.

@Xephiare
1. Yes it does.that’s the.whole idea behind this build.
2. This is something I have to look into. I might have to switch signet out for null field or use sigil when it comes to that.

Other options:
1. Consumables to reduce condition duration
2. Phantasmal Disenchanter (another illusion to die)

@Korusef: thanks for the tip.
I think against straight dmg opponent, this build will counter well but if up against another condition foe, it’ll come down to whoever stacks conditions faster which the build might be at some disadvantage since it requires some build-up time, but hey, you can switch to staff to stack conditions faster at any time.
Anyway, I never had much luck going up against condition nec with my mes. Maybe I’m just bad

I tested the build exactly how you posted, with probably less stats since I had berserker trinkets.
I used carrion/rabid armor. And carrion/rabid weapons.
Same utilities, weapons, sigils, and traits. I got 6 runes of nightmare b/c lyssa was too expensive.

Anyway, I went against 2 necros (2v1) and beat them. Oh, sorry, now I remember using mass invisibility instead of time warp b/c I find the stealth more useful in positioning and the cooldown is 120 seconds less.
I basically used the stun when they figure out where I am—used either the signet or #5 pistol. Made sure to use decoy well. And spammed mirror images whenever it’s up. When decoy, #2 scepter block, and stuns were down, I switched to staff to tank and to use #2 staff to keep them thinking.

That was just one of my fights, I went with 3 random people against around 10 guys and did fairly well until I got left alone with them for having no mobility. But I still did well and managed to get one person down against 4 guys.
1v1 is simple. Sometimes guys completely run past me and attack clones behind me, perhaps thinking I’m a clone hahahaa.

Oh, right. I made sure to spam auto attack with scepter to utilize what you said. I look forward to experimenting with this build more. Torment rocks btw. 4-5k damage with #2 scepter.

Edit: I understand how you feel on necros. Its my most hated class as a mesmer. But, like I said with my necro 2 v 1, just use your positioning.
Also, I realized that when you get a bunch of conditions on you, it is GG for you unless they can’t follow up.

Hi Xeph many thanks for spending time experimenting the build and your feedbacks.

Can’t wait to try out this build in sPvP. PvE and WvW have to wait because i need to farm for rabid gear. I’m still at work, it’s Friday and time just doesn’t seem to pass by fast enough.

How effective the cripple went against your opponents?

One thing I want to comment about this build is that it is based on mind games (which our class is all about). And that makes it fun and annoying as hell to your opponent. I feel like this is how Torment is meant to be used. And Scepter autoattack suddenly becomes good. I used to wish that the attack rate were faster but that would have made this build OP

I didn’t check out the cripple, although I obviously should have, from that 10 points in domination. I will look out for the cripple next run, though I had an easyish time kiting.
If only we had a condition removal there, but I like the stun from the signet of domination.

Hey mate! I’m “Pippi Cannelunghe” (Desolation – EU) in game and I tried to build this since January, but after some months testing I came up with something “different”.

Main differences:
- Crit Chance at 60% minimum: try to use Rampager amulet with Rabid jewel and 30 points into Dueling trait.
Then with 60% crit chance and “phantasmal fury” use iDuelist. PEWPEWPEW
Try it before judge, don’t be that guy xD

- If you use the sword instead of scepter, your clones will chase to death your target… applying bleeding AND vulnerability with normal attacks , then they will explode (near your target since they’re chasing him).

- Sigil of Battle on both weapons. It gives you 210 power and 210 cond.damage everytime you swap weapon sets.

- Corruption on offhand gives you a sort of “Snowball effect” at 25 stacks, something similar to Dota

- If you want to boost your bleeding even more use 2x Afflicted/Centaur/Krait for +45% bleeding duration

I tried to build it in two versions, one with multiple and different conditions and another that relies more on bleeding on crit with iduelist (this last one is giving me very good times).

If you want to compare the builds, you can see my “Illusionary Bomberman” on the forum
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Illusionary-Bomberman-PvX-build/first#post2278805

Hi Mei Mato,
Thanks for sharing your build with us.
I actually did read about this build before I posted mine. Cool name and i thought it was something similar.
Not trying to judge or compare the two builds here, just want to point out that the two are different in principle.
I’ll take your advice about using iDuelist to stack up on bleeds so that setup is 2 clones + iDuelist.
Though the sword clones hugging enemy is really nice, I need the scepter for my build to work as explained here:
My build is based on the interplay between four main types of conditions which are constantly applied to foe during fight:
- Bleed: provides the baseline DoT
- Cripple: impairs foe’s mobility and forces foe to use skills for movement/mobility
- Confusion: punishes foe for using skills.
- Torment: extra DoT and discourages foe movement (work in sync with Cripple)

Having said that, I’ll definitely try out your build. It’s cool and very good damage-wise. My build is more CC rather than damage-oriented.

Thanks again for posting.

I tried something very like this last night in WvW after the scepter fix.

I had a lot of trouble and didn’t feel like it had very much power. Most people seemed to shrug off the small amount of condition damage I was able to apply. But this may be a L2P issue.

Has anyone else tried this since the fix? I like the idea, but I haven’t been very effective. http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VO;4VPV11z6sU-71;9;49O9-O4;019-4;348-awW8;2NX8aNX8aPtFqNAV7;3A-F0K1PYUZ_49eWPk4R06Rk06R;9;9;9;9;9;4V6s5q

I’m glad that you appreciate my suggestion
By the way, after the scepter fix, I want to try some more combinations, so I’ll check this discussion frequently.

When did they fix this scepter thing? Is this the double clone thing?

I have been running a build utilizing this concept since a month after launch. I wa running 20-25-10-5-5 but with the change to celerity you are forced to use 10-25-10-0-25 as you described. This equates to zero condi clearing now that you cannot take the torch trait. Conversely the change to weakness probably helps ( not easy to ‘see’ it )

I have only used this in spvp as I do not see it working in wvw and I do not pve with my mesmer.

In my opinion the weapons must be sword/pistol and sword/torch. Sword is the best because the clones are always running right to them.

I swapped to all bleed enhance runes after they reduced the endurance gain from the adventurer runes.

I’ve done both rabid and rampage and I found rabid to be superior.

Sigils are energy (duh) and agony or minor corruption.

Heal is (face heal) for all rune choices save adventurer in which case its the deflection one.

Utilities are decoy/mirror images/veil

Elite is mass invis

You need to find ways to swipe them with your sword or blurred frenzy periodically so that your vigor gets proc’d

Do not shatter unless you need a daze or distortion to save your life. Mind wrack only to close out their health. Alternatively you can shatter to clear out phantasms if you feel it is necessary.

Only stop producing clones when they need to catch up to the target.

You’re function on the field is creating an uneven distribution of resources. Ideally you are heading to a point and will be the only one going there all match. You either take the point, require an unreasonable amount of attention to get rid of, or they take it and leave so you take it back (because you used all you invis to just move away a bit and wait). 1v1’s are more often a win than not.

If you are curious to see it anyone is welcome to watch me play it. I’m not going to tell you this will be anything hot in serious tpvp (unfortunately I do not get to participate in it) but its just fine in solo q. If anything I have more fun playing this way than any other spec and you really get to confuse people (I’ve had many comments on this) and that is what attracted me to mesmer in the first place.

Hf and gl

@djtool & toutatis: Thanks for your feedbacks guys. Really appreciate it.
I have updated the post with suitable changes to make the build more effective while staying true to its original principle.

So I jumped in sPvP and tested out the build (check the sPvP link in the first post). I must say, for an amateur PvPer, it was quite effective. In 1v1 situations, i managed to best all other professions except mesmer. That’s probably because he outplayed me with greatsword; I’ve been running with Sword + Torch / Staff in my power-crit build for my whole mesmer life, so I need to spend more time to master the scepter, especially the tormenting block.

A couple of notes/lessons to self that I want to share:

- practice, practice, practice the block. Torment rocks and should be used as much as possible. Even if I fail to time it properly and put up the block too soon, i can always throw it to blind and confuse opponent.

- Torment logic and the whole clone death dictate that against melee foes, I kite, keep them chasing after me in their semi-crippled, confused, bleeding, or probably tormented state. Against ranged opponent though, i find it more effective to hug them and surround them with my clones. My best experience was that when my clones and I surrounded an ele, he spammed AoE attacks, clones die and conditions kicked in so fast that it almost looked like he killed himself with his AoE spells. lol

- while the build doesn’t support shatters, you should still use shatters if the situation demands for it. F2 & F4 are probably the best bet.

- Scepter #2, #3, and Pistol #4, and Mind Wrack are your ‘burst’ skills (not great but decent dmg dealer). Scepter #3 and Pistol #4 work great against Thief, the skills still continue to hit them as long as it connects before thief go stealth.

- Sigil of Rage is useless, with 40-ish crit chance it simply doesn’t proc often enough. Besides, normal clone generation rate is more than enough during fight. Similarly, Sigil of Hobbling is nice but not worthwhile since it’s too defensive and the effect is not that significant. I settle on Sigil of Earth for both scepter and staff to stack more bleeds.

- Will try out 6x Lyssa since it’s quite a powerful combination

- Mass Invi it is, short CDs and it would like a fight reset button with 6x Lyssa runes. Might use Time Warp in big group fight since it’ll be devastating.

This is to sum up the pros/cons of this build based on my experience and the feedbacks from all of you:

Pros:
- solid condition damage, not overly relying on one type of condition (like confusion) but rather make it work in sync with other conditions to its full effectiveness.
- very effective in 1v1 encounter, you win by outlasting the opponent
- confusion & ‘trolling’ factor: with clones constantly pop up and explode, enemy will have a hard time to figure out where the real culprit (aka you) is as the explosion animation adds to the dynamic chaos. We mesmers thrive on chaos btw. On top of that, they have to deal with their mobility and condition issues at hand.

Cons:
- require kiting and positioning skills
- very poor condition removal
- need to blend in well with your clones otherwise you’re exposed and vulnerable (compare to sword wielder, you don’t have Blurred Frenzy and Vigor procs less often)

Feel free to give me your thoughts so i can add more to the list guys
Thanks

TooBz.3065:

I tried something very like this last night in WvW after the scepter fix.

I had a lot of trouble and didn’t feel like it had very much power. Most people seemed to shrug off the small amount of condition damage I was able to apply. But this may be a L2P issue.

Has anyone else tried this since the fix? I like the idea, but I haven’t been very effective. http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VO;4VPV11z6sU-71;9;49O9-O4;019-4;348-awW8;2NX8aNX8aPtFqNAV7;3A-F0K1PYUZ_49eWPk4R06Rk06R;9;9;9;9;9;4V6s5q

Hi TooBz, don’t be discouraged by your low condition DoT. Like I said in previous post, the build is based on the interplay of 4 types of conditions so individually, you have look at the number they’re not too scarily powerful. Also, the idea is to bait your foes into ignoring the DoT from conditions until it’s too late; “oh snap, i better heal/cleanse”, this is where you play smart, you interrupt their heal/cleanse, stunlock and move in for the kill.

For stun: we have Pistol #4 and Signet of Domination. They’re amazing.
For burst dmg to finish off your foes: you have Scepter #3 (use this wisely, make sure they can’t dodge it and it also gives your position away), Pistol #4, and the two Shatters (F1 & F2).

Stun then drop Chaos Storm is also a powerful combo.

Cheers

The Achilles heel of this build (in wvw) is that it lacks ooc mobility, otherwise it’s quite good. In my build I run full lyssa runes and the stealth elite, and null field to take care of condition (I may also take purity sigils). I also use condition duration food since the lyssa runes take care of the precision.

I really like the stun from the signet and prefer it than a condition removal in WvW. In spvp, however, I use arcane thievery because it is a condition fest in pubs right now, with all those necro/engie condition spam.

That daze with two stuns is amazing. You can lock someone down while the opponent has a bunch of conditions.

The sigil of purity should work for the conditions, but I would just say to just don’t get hit and use decoy if the opponent found you without scepter 2 available. And just run when you get hit by a lot of conditions from an aoe field.
Although like @roamzero said, the build’s weakness is the lack of mobility—he specifically said ooc mobility, and I also think the mobility in combat is our weakness as well. We don’t have haste and blink to catch people, or to pull/knockback guys leaving us with less control on the fight.
If you see a bunch of people coming for you, just bounce right away; get out as fast as you can, using decoy/mass invisiblity, and the cripples should give you luck and take care of the guys chasing you if they happen to kill your clones.

For out of combat mobility, switch to focus and signet of inspiration to get haste.

keenlam, I’m liking the build. I usually play shatter, but this is a nice change of pace. After some time spent with it in WvW in roaming and in siege battles, I made a few modifications to better suit my style.

I find that I prefer the Torch to the Pistol. Yes the phantasm is weaker, and I lose the excellent crowd control, but the vanish is very helpful for me tactically, and the AOE burn is a minor pleasure, too.

I also carry a Focus for the swiftness and for those cases where I simply must pull someone off something.

Decoy works great and I always like it, but in this build I prefer the precise positioning of Blink. I feel like I have plenty of clones available even without Decoy, and if I want to disappear, nine times out of ten all I really need to do is Blink behind my target.

I found runes of the Undead to be a reasonable (and really cheap) alternative to your recommendations.

I swapped out the Carrion Pieces for Rabid, gaining some extra Toughness. Between that and the clone uptime providing lots of decoys, I find my sturdiness against bursty enemies to be fairly good.

I dropped the Lemongrass Poultry Soup in favor of Tropical Mousse. I run some other builds where the reduced condition-duration food is my favorite choice, but in this build I found that my best defenses against conditions were the 3 in 4 chance that an enemy will stack his conditions on the wrong target, together with the always-nice heals from Ether Feast. If things get really conditiony, the build provides enough clone uptime that I feel comfortable swapping in Null Field to replace Mirror Images.

Coming from mostly running shatter builds (I do also run some other builds as well), this one is a really interesting change. It has quite a different feel in combat. Shatter feels like fencing; this build feels more methodical, like chess—or even Poker. I’ve won a few fights by bluffing! If I stand there and look like a clone, instead of moving like a player, enemies will sometimes assume that I am a clone, and attack one of my clones instead! And if they call my bluff, well, that’s what the extra toughness and Phase Retreat are for.

Thanks for this. It’s fun, and a nice change of pace. I’m still getting the feel of it, and making plenty of mistakes, but I’ve had some pretty good zerg-surfing and 1vX experiences already, and I feel like the build has a pretty roomy skill cap.

My gaming group runs a couple of all-Mesmer teams, and my variation of your build is going on our list of recommended builds.

Hi mikelevins
Im glad that you find the build effective, enjoyable and inspiring.
Even more happy that you decide to add this into your recommended list. May I implore you keep the Clone Spammer name in your variation?

mikelevins.4639:

It has quite a different feel in combat. Shatter feels like fencing; this build feels more methodical, like chess—or even Poker.

I like your analogy to chess or poker. This build is indeed based on mind games and human psychology (not that i’m an expert in this field, its just common sense)

When you get crippled, you try to move a lot, seeing a lot of clones around you, the last thing you want to do is to stand there and get owned by a shatter coming your way. I tested this build with my friend in sPvP and he told me its pretty much perma-crippled. The combined force of Torment and Confusion leaves little room for you to try to regain your mobility, you move Torment gets you, you use skills to move around – Confusion. Eventually, condition cleansing is the only choice. And you have at least 4 conditions on you to take care of. All of that puts a lot of pressure on you.

mikelevins.4639:

I’ve won a few fights by bluffing! If I stand there and look like a clone, instead of moving like a player, enemies will sometimes assume that I am a clone, and attack one of my clones instead!

It always amuses me when I take 1 or 2 seconds to stand there and watch that warrior 100B my poor clone (who would just die if I dodge anyway) or a thief HS-jumps around killing my clones seeing how little health they have left.

Having said all that, the build still has some glaring issues that need addressing. After more experimenting and taking into consideration the feedbacks from everyone in this thread, I have decided to give up staff for sword + focus since this secondary weapon set helps resolve those glaring issues. I don’t write off Staff completely though, i think it’s still very effective and depending on individual playstyle, people might prefer it over Sword + focus. As for me, Ive been running with Sword for too long and miss it too much now.

Please check out this new variation to the build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgEQRAra8dlwzKq3UzgGbNJipCBHaGXX1RqQpVmBudhA-jUzAItioRTVE0IPwkIEqEYKMq5whMWFLiGrGCTjGZVaS1xAeEGtahA8tGA-w

So what are the changes and the logic behind them?
- Utility skills: out of combat or in group fight where you have your team to lock down the opponents, switch out Signet of Domination for Signet of Inspiration. Will also swap Decoy for Blink to try it out. (to be honest, sometimes the clones are produced so fast that the explosions actually cloud my vision!) But the choice between Blink and Decoy, again, depends on each person’s playstyle since they’re equally good for this build.
- Armor & Trinkets: mix more Carrion into the default Rabid gear for improved health pool. Will try out 6x Rune of Lyssa for the awesome condition removal and boons.

- Weapons: change from Staff to Sword + Focus. The reasons are:
*Sword clones chase and hug target, and rip boons. Whats not to like!
*Blurred Frenzy provides an active defense (as compared to more passive defense by Chaos Armor and Chaos Storm, at least to me anyway, it was really hard for me to let go of my staff though!) Its fast attack rate of BF means it can easily stack Bleed with Sigil of Earth as well while you defend yourself.
*iLeap/Swap: a snare, more CC = better control on enemy. Also with sword equipped, use iLeap + Mirror Images to sneak up on your enemy, then swap to Scepter, and you’re all set with 3 clones even before you engage your enemy.
*Temporal Curtain: gives swiftness to improve both in- and out-of- combat mobility, can also be used as area denial utility (oh did i mention this build works ridiculously well when fighting in confined space). Into the Void = pull and cripple, even more CC. Extra help with chasing down enemies running away if you already used your 2 stuns.
*TC + iWarden combo: more condition cleansing in addition to Sigil of Purity

- Sigils: Sigil of Earth on Scepter & Sword for bleed stacking; Purity on Pistol for condition removal; as for Focus i use Sigil of Geomancy for the visually scary burst bleed on swap, alternatively you can use Sigil of Hydromancy for the CC chill.

- Consumables: lots of options now, just go with whatever suits you really.

My thanks to all of you for your really helpful feedbacks. I really hope this build catch on and that skilled players would make it shine in competitive play.

keenlam,

I fairly often run builds without the staff, and I can see the advantages of the alternative setup your proposing. I’m not done exploring the possibilities of this build with the staff, yet, though. I’ve been experimenting with it in WvW and it seems like there are more possibilities left to discover.

It’s called “keenlam’s Clone Spammer” on our build list ;-)

I was just playing around with this in pvp today…now I’m gearing up for it in wvw. I see it as a strong counter-tactic to the necro mark spam that we’ve been going up against lately in zerg vs zerg.

I also tried out different weapons, and with your same trait distribution, it’s possible to trait out sword, which opens up using scepter/sword for extra clones/blocks and maybe sword/torch in the other set for when you need to chase someone/disappear.

one more thing…your sigils are wrong. They share cooldowns so you won’t get to proc them all. I’d suggest, especially if you go with something like two dual weapons, doing sigils that proc after weapon swap – so you’d get a proc every ten seconds.

sigils of energy on each set, means a free dodge (and clone) every 10 seconds.

Sigils of hydromancy would add chills – which would round this out with another snare + defensive condition, making cleansing harder. You can get this for 4 out of every 10 seconds.

For the off-hand sigils, I’d go with something that increases condi-duration, depending on what you want…you may go with chill/bleed/weakness duration.

Thanks for the tip, bobross. I didn’t know about the shared cooldown thing. That really messes up my setup. I am now settled with Sigil of Agony + Sigil of Earth (this one has pretty short cooldown) or Sigil of Purity (if going up against heavy conditon opponents); on the other weapon set it’s Hydromancy and Sigil of Chilling. I find that 6x Runes of Grenth is also a good option going with this sigil setup.

Also, I swap out Illusions IX (Blinding Befuddlement) for X (Phantasmal Haste) when going up against class that has ability to target drop (thief / mesmer). Choose the right target and summon iDuelist then I’m good to go.

bobross.5034:

sigils of energy on each set, means a free dodge (and clone) every 10 seconds.

Hi bobross, a question: if I have 2 on-swap sigils (say energy & hydromancy) on a weaponset (sword + focus), would they BOTH activate when i swap to the weaponset?

I’ll test this out in HotM later but I’m at work so I figure I ask around on forum first.

I know energy + hydromancy would be amazing, right? sadly it’s not an option. Both have cooldowns and when the cooldown procs any other sigils cant proc till the cd is over. I actually tested that combo, and only one procs. I also tried hydro (cd 9 secs) and the poison on swap one (no cd)…only one procs. Not sure about two with no cd.

Also if you use energy (9cd) and a proc on crit sigil, you wont get any procs during the 9 sec cooldown.

Also if you take a proc on crit sigil with a cd(like earth-cd5), then immediately swap to an on swap weapon, it won’t proc. Basically those cds are global.

So essentially, you only want one on swap or on crit sigil per set. and you should probably only have one type in your build, so the crit cooldowns dont interfere with the swap ones.

Not sure how armor runes work, but I’m pretty sure theyre on different cds.

Armor rune CDs are completely separate from weapon sigil CDs. You do have the complete picture though.

I would highly recommend against scepter in this build. Staff does massively more damage than any other weapon because your clones actually provide damaging conditions with their normal attack. You avoid scepter because the clone generation from the auto attack is nearly slower than just dodge rolling with vigor, and it has 0 utility (this is from a pve point of of view).

In pvp, it’s a toss up between scepter and sword in this build. However, this is ONLY because of 1 skill: the block. You still don’t want to auto attack with the scepter. It’s too slow to be useful, and you want to preserve your staff clones as much as possible as they do much more damage when they aren’t dying.

@bobross, Pyroatheist: thank you for your clarification about CDs for sigils and runes.

@Pyroatheist: appreciate your feedback but i think you’re missing the point here since Scepter IS the foundation of this build.

Dodge rolling + vigor procs might produce clones faster but it makes a bad habit of dodging just to create clone out of it. This is critical since positioning is key and you simply cannot afford such a mistake when kiting. Scepter #1 is simply fire and forget, I just need to watch out for Retaliation.

Damage-wise, there’s no arguing that Staff is more superior but I lose out on the pistol which critically complements this setup. The idea is to kill your clones (not phantasms) as fast as you can, not the other way around. This is because unlike staff clones, scepter clones don’t apply conditions while they’re alive. Luckily, your foes help you out a lot and the ones i’ve been going up against did such a marvellous job at killing my clones.

In general, you’re talking about a completely different build which i’m keen to have a look at.

so finally got it set up in wvw. The one major issue with scepter in zerg vs zerg fights is it’s a slow projectile that doesnt track, so if it misses-no clone. The blocks are easy to get…I just move around and eventually aoe hits me.

I’m thinking of using greatsword as an alternate for chasing situations, since the 2 skill has a quick cd and spawns a clone near the target (and the phantasm is no slouch vs a zerg). I’m really trying to drop clones into zergs so people waste time killing them and they do aoe conditions. Shatters can also work for this since the clones probably get killed before they can shatter. As long as they’re in range it’s good.

as you pointed out, variations get farther from the original. For me, I’ve gone more extremely toward dropping/killing clones, and am trying to think of the best ways to do this in different wvw situations. so far it seems to be staff – scepter/sword for small groups and gs – scepter/sword for zergs.

@bobross: I’ve been trying out the combination Scepter + Sword since I need to practice timing of the block (1 block on each weapon) against enemy burst skills. It works surprisingly good. Thanks for the tip.
Also, I switch out Ether Feast for Mirror for the awesome reflect. I don’t mind the smaller health since I find most of the time, the illusions are the ones that get beat up not me. This build gets even more interesting now since it has the counterstrike theme embedded in.

keenlam,

I continue to enjoy the build. I’ve tried all the variations posted here, and they’re all appealing in various ways. I’ve also tried some variations of my own, some of which have worked very well for me.

My gaming group runs a lot of WvW, and the Focus is extremely useful in that setting. It means giving up the advantages of other offhands, but the added mobility and snaring tactics make up for those losses in the WvW setting.

We also worked out a variation of your build that works the same way, but which offers a little more utility for large-scale siege warfare. Basically, we give up the points in Domination to gain ten more in Chaos. Besides the added Toughness and boon duration, that gets us Chaos X, which means more Phase Retreats more often. That’s more clones, and more escapes when kiting zergs around. It’s also more Chaos Storms, and Chaos Storm is your friend in WvW.

Of course, we give up the cripple effect, but in WvW we tend to run with a Focus anyway, and Temporal Curtain gives us cripple on-demand.

In addition, we swap in some glamours on the utility bar to give us more AOE options in siege warfare than just Chaos Storm. Chaos Storm is great with this build, there’s no doubt about it; but add in some combination of Mimic, Null Field, and Feedback, and the loot bags stack up even faster.

For small-group and solo roaming, I think some version of your original build is generally better, but when you know you’re going to be in a lot of siege battles, our variant offers more options against the enemy zerg.

mikelevins,

I totally agree with you that in siege battles, staff and focus are valuable weapon choices from my own experience in WvW.

Without a staff, i find myself useless in siege defense if I’m not manning a siege weapon because the range and AoE attacks staff offers that no other weapon has. For example, drop a Chaos Storm down on the enemy zerg crowding in front the gate while I stand up on the keep wall.

Also agree that focus is amazing in big group fights, the pull is extremely effective (although I’m still adapting to the 1s before ItV can be used) and iWarden always makes iDuelist jealous in bringing down gates because of the more superior damage against stationary targets.

I usually roam solo or in small group with 2-3 people thus the need for pistol as off-hand. iDuelist is just so effective in keeping the pressure on a single target. Rarely that I need to summon the 2nd iDuelist before the target does down or runs away. It is also my trusted friend when I go up against Thief or enemy Mesmer (although i must admit i usually get jumped and killed fast by skilled sneaky thieves)
Even when fighting with zerg, I still have my pistol on me since the Commander targets, and I just single-mindedly attack that target while the AoE clone deaths (hopefully) inflict damage and conditions on the rest.

These days I always carry 2 swords, staff, and focus in my inventory with scepter and pistol are my default equipped set so I can switch easily when necessary.

Also, lately I’ve made a big change in runeset that is quite questionable and I’d appreciate comments on this:
6x Centaur Runes
My logic for this change:
- ooc speed is still an unresolved problem even with off-hand Focus as I tend to reserve the skill to use in combat.
- this runeset + Mirror = almost 100% uptime swiftness
- +15% bleeding duration is a nice touch
- extra power for a condition build? i just hope that extra power adds dmg to all attacks but it is for sure not the reason for the change.

I truly like the idea behind your build so I started fiddling with it a bit to suit my playing style more. But I would like to have your opinion on a couple of things.

First, this is the build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAraWlwzKq3UzgGaNJipCBHaGXX1RqQpVmBudhA-TwAAzCoI+SVk7LzXyvsFNqYVxskXFA

It uses the same principle as your build but instead of relying only on conditions (I found your build lacking a bit in burst… it doesn’t have to be a shatter burst for instance, but a little extra damage doesn’t hurt…) it uses the offensive side of sword/pistol damage from iDuellist/BFrenzy and rely on the defensive one from scepter/torch.

You start “toying” with iMage, conditions and scepter to test the water. Then you can stealth with torch and swap to iduelist and close in with sword to put pressure. Rinse and repeat.
With Decoy, Torch and Mass Invisibility when you are not visible the enemy can only kill illusions and this will trigger cripple and random conditions which helps kiting

I found myself doing pretty well in most 1vs1 and during zergs clones die fast spreding conditions to nearby foes. The only thing I dislike is the short range of scepter but hey… you can’t have everything!

Now, the question. At the moment I am running with full knight armor and centaur’s runes which I love. Weapons are a mixture of previous set ups, mainly berserker. What flavour of weapons/armor/accessories should I be using? Given that my source of damage is split 50-50 between direct and condition damage, should I replace half of the knight gear with rabid? I would aim at 2.5/3k armor and 50ish crit chance for optimal survivability. What would you do?

Hi trooper,

I see nothing wrong in your approach to suit your playstyle based on my original build. Glad even that my build provides that flexibility for you to tweak around with it.
As you describe, your build is hybrid because it pumps out DPS from both direct attacks and conditions. So the tricky thing here is get a nice balance of stats to boost both two sources of damage AND utilize both of them during fight.

I’m not a very skilled player and as the fight gets harder and harder, i tend to focus more about defensive maneuvers and play defensively. Condition dmg works best for me since it’s sustained meaning even if i stop attacking, enemies still eat damage from existing conditions.
I used to play shatter and sometimes i forgot to press F1 when Mind Wrack off CD and i had all 3 illusions o_O.

Anyway, balanced stats is my key message.
I think 2.5k armor is good enough, more than that and you start sacrificing too much of offensive stats.
I usually go for 40-ish crit chance and it works well for me because i use on-crit sigils (and to stack bleeds). But if i don’t i can get away easily with crit chance being as low as 30%. So maybe 50-ish is a bit much?
I go full condition, so my minimum is 1,3k condition dmg and i’m gearing up for as high as 1,7k. But as you split 50-50 with power, maybe 900-1000 condition dmg should be viable.
Again, play around with it and see what works.

Totally agree that iDuelist and Blurred Frenzy are great burst. Even when I have very low power stat, the dmg is still impressive, especially iDuelist with raw dmg and the stacked bleed dmg comes right after.

Some comments about the use of scepter. Now scepter’s autoattack is slow because it takes into account the travel time of projectiles. Use it as a melee weapon and it gets just as fast as sword’s autoattack. Also, in melee range, with the clone spawned right next to you, you have better chance to confuse your opponent.

Have fun experimenting and enjoy the build

I just realized the link to my build is wrong

Here is the right one:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQRArf8al0zipXUzmGbNJipCB3ZGQn0RqQpVmBudhA

Thank you for your feedback. I watched your videos and you were doing very well
I will follow your advice and play with the gear: luckily I have 3 pieces of rabid gear in my bank and see how it plays out!

trooper.2650:

… I watched your videos and you were doing very well

You have me confused, I don’t have any videos of me playing this build.

Hi, I really like your build, the opinion seems fashionable. However, I am a new player and I prefer PVE more than PVP, is this build viable in dungones? Is the dps compariable to other power build?

Thank you very much

keenlam.4753:

trooper.2650:

… I watched your videos and you were doing very well

You have me confused, I don’t have any videos of me playing this build.

I must have confused threads… sorry

Hi CNwhitenight,
This build works great in PvE, even better since mobs are stupid and most of the time go for your clones and phantasms thus providing excellent damage mitigation for yourself and your group.
I solo champs with this build.

To sum it up for you:
- this is a condition/CC build relying on the ability to slow and lock down your opponent. You don’t do fancy great critical damage but rather wear down the opponent over time. So no, compared to power-based builds (like shatter), you have less burst damage potential.
But you sacrifice that burst potential for excellent group support as listed:
- permanently slow and even lock down mobs
- distract mobs with your illusions (100% uptime)
- wear down mobs over time with your own conditions + conditions from illusions’ deaths.
- as for other utilities, you can always swap out any of the 3 default utility skills for a specific skill when the situations demand, be it Feedback, Null Field, Portal, Veil, etc.) the build still works fine. Utility slot skills are very flexible for this build, and for Mesmers in general.

Try it out and give me your feedback.

trooper.2650:

keenlam.4753:

trooper.2650:

… I watched your videos and you were doing very well

You have me confused, I don’t have any videos of me playing this build.

I must have confused threads… sorry

Haha, not a problem. Hope you have fun with the build.

Just want to add my thoughts to this thread – I was working independently on a similar PvP Mesmer build for a friend, and I used some mechanics I haven’t seen anyone talking about here. Specifically, the Duelist’s Discipline trait has an unlisted effect that makes all of the iDuelist’s projectiles become guaranteed Projectile Finishers. This can be combined with Ethereal Fields to rapidly put 8 stacks of Confusion on a target (9 if you follow up with Trick Shot through the field) in addition to the 6-7 stacks of Bleeding from Sharper Images.

I’m not a terribly experienced Mesmer, so this may not be an optimal build, but here’s what I was running to take advantage of this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAraWlwziqHTTrGaNJyJFMn0hqw1RqQpV6BulbXIA-TsAAzCpIKS9l7LTRyvsfN6Y9xcBA

The ideal combo is to drop Chaos Storm, swap to Scepter, and then use the Duelist+Trick Shot on a victim. This results in the aforementioned 9 confusion stacks (8 seconds), 6-7 bleeds (6 seconds), Poison (6 seconds), stun (2 seconds), and random conditions from the Storm. You can then follow up with Confusing Images to raise the Confusion stacks to 14 and attempt Illusionary Counter to add Torment to the mix.

I’ve found that the combo is often countered if you try to start off a fight with it – a well-timed dodge can eliminate most of your confusion stacks and bleeds, and even if your opponent doesn’t avoid it, they’re likely to have their cleansing options ready to mitigate the burst. Instead, I’ve been trying to use clone spam in the early portions of a fight to keep the target inflicted with moderate amounts of bleeding, confusion, torment, and cripple, along with whatever burning I can get from the Staff autoattack, and some Poison whenever I swap to Scepter (something Mesmers are otherwise lacking in their condition builds). Once an opponent has started to burn through some of their dodges and cleanses, I’ll drop the combo, and if I’ve set it up properly, they really can’t do anything but melt.

Traits are fairly self-explanatory. For my utilities, I’m running a pair of glamours: Null Field for the cleansing/extra Ethereal Field, and Portal for mobility and map control (and the occasional emergency escape). I’m currently alternating between Blink and Decoy for a stun break. Blink is nice for the mobility, but Decoy can give me a chance to set up my combo in the middle of a tough fight. If you aren’t interested in having team utility, you could drop Portal and take both to improve the build’s 1v1 game (which seems decent already). This would probably be less viable in a TPvP setting, though.

Anyways, just wanted to post this here for the benefit of those who are working on similar builds. It’s a nice change of pace from Shatters, and it’d be cool to see Condition Mesmers start to stake out more of a place for themselves in the metagame.

Hey all, just wanted to throw this in there….you know there is a sigil that refils your energy when someone dies….So that’s two free clones. So what would happen if, say 5 tanky mesmers were rolling around in a zerg with this build?

I have used this build in tourneys and duels I swap pistol for sword however I must say I approve. The number of conditions stacked on AOE melee spammers is ridic

addendum to the build I posted:

I think 10-25-30-5-0 may be superior. Also I am giving runes of the adventurer another go as a poor-mans substitute for the loss of IC. it also emphasizes the builds use during pvp which is creating uneven resource distribution

Just throwing that out

I made this build back in december of last year. Although It has changed a bit since I originally came up with the idea. But still same concept. I’m glad others are finally picking up my build and having fun with it.

Wow, guys, thank you all for your great contribution. This thread has just gotten hot again. I see everyone has their own version of the build, all are interesting takes.

@Soryuju: Duel IX (Duelist’s Discipline) sounds nice especially when i want to make my iDuelist become a killing machine. Will try it out soon.

@Trigr: watched your vid, great combo. I knew there must have been someone before me thought about the idea and tried to make a good build out of it. Will try swapping Phantasmal Haste out for Illusionary Elasticity (for the staff version of my build)

@bobross: I like your thinking. 5 mesmers run this build and you have yourself an army of 15 suicide condi-bombers on the field. That’s gotta hurt the other team.

keenlam.4753:

Wow, guys, thank you all for your great contribution. This thread has just gotten hot again. I see everyone has their own version of the build, all are interesting takes.

@Soryuju: Duel IX (Duelist’s Discipline) sounds nice especially when i want to make my iDuelist become a killing machine. Will try it out soon.

@Trigr: watched your vid, great combo. I knew there must have been someone before me thought about the idea and tried to make a good build out of it. Will try swapping Phantasmal Haste out for Illusionary Elasticity (for the staff version of my build)

@bobross: I like your thinking. 5 mesmers run this build and you have yourself an army of 15 suicide condi-bombers on the field. That’s gotta hurt the other team.

but it’s more than that…the sigil refills energy everytime something dies. If all 5 are doing aoe conditions, after they kill an opponent (or random monster), they can each immediately throw down 2 more clones (plus whatever is off cooldown). Since the damage is all aoe – there is probably another enemy near death, which then means another two dodges each…as you can see, it has the potential to turn into a sort of aoe machine gun.