Guild Wars 2

Thedenofsin.7340:

meichor.7809:

Sensotix have some great new builds (10/30/20/10/0 on youtube), give those a shot, they don’t have weakness against anything and give you great confidence on taking portal while not losing in fight survivability.

I can vouch for this. 10/30/20/10 can out-bunker just about anything 1v1, but it has so little team support that Portal becomes marginally useful. Played right, it’s crazy. The other night I had a condi-mancer repeatedly come to try to drop me on a side-node and couldn’t do it (I had Disenchanter instead of Portal).

Interesting. Anyone have a build editor link for this? I can’t make heads or tails of builds in videos.

I’m also cautious about getting enamored of any condition-based build until we see what Anet does to DE in a few weeks…

Vuh.1328:

So i’ve got into the top 100 team queue as mesmer and with a team that haven’t played full meta(first team necro, guardian, engi, thief, mesmer and second nec, guard, ranger, warr, mesmer)
And while i’m not nearly as good as helseth or misah or some other of the mesmers in top 100, especially in 1v1 vs other mesmers, i’m losing hope/motivation quickly knowing we would do so much better if i played a warrior..
Even if i was as good as Helseth at playing mesmer i would still feel i would be so much more effective as warrior(his team would probably be more effective if he was maining warrior or thief aswell).

I just don’t see any reason for myself to try get better at mesmer, knowing the next balance patch is probably like 2months away and will most likely not change a thing besides making mesmer even less wanted unless they contain some hefty changes to the current meta.
Atleast i guess i can be thankful for having team mates which allow me to play what i want to play but i HATE that feeling of knowing i could be more effective at a class i’m worse at.

Sorry if this just became a blob of text that is unreadable.

Help?
Words?
Hugs?
Motivational posters?

hugs just have fun honestly and btw there is no telling what the next balance update holds except for a few things already announced. a good Mesmer will always be a threat to any class.

Thedenofsin.7340:

All this aside, I’d really like to know what role ANet has in mind for Mesmers.

Mesmer used to be very good at a roaming/decap/group support, but has not been viable since ANet buffed condition damage and buffed thieves almost a full year ago.

The condition meta has changed somewhat, but I still see thieves as just better for that role. In fact, if you watch any tPvP games with Helseth, you’ll see the current meta in action: the opposing team’s thief simply chases Helseth down the entire game and stomps him with impunity.

Since Mesmers really can’t run Zerker due to thieves, what should they run?

Yeah, he and I have started using sword torch gs with shatter traits and Halting Strike. Even though Thieves are better in the role, if you really want to play Mesmer the extra stealth helps deaggro the Thieves, hopefully allowing you to ignore them more or burst them out of stealth.

Ok, so it appears that Helseth, Sensotix and possibly Supcutie have all appeared to abandon mesmer in higher end tPvP play:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Helseth-Sensotix-Quit-Mesmer

I see these headlines and of course it’s discouraging, as was the general nature of this thread regarding mesmer viability in tPvP. At the moment there isn’t a single mesmer I’m aware of that plays at that level and that just sux.

Questions I have:

• For roles that are common across more than one class (boon strip/burst/bunker/support, etc), is mesmer really the worst choice?
• For roles unique to mesmer (lockdown/control, utility-portal/illusion of life, should I even say PU??? etc), is taking another profession really more beneficial than utilizing what the mesmer has to offer in these areas?

Now I’m sure a ton of experimentation has been done on lots of builds by these fellows over the past months. All I hear is that “mesmer isn’t viable” and I’d love to see more information, especially from these people, on why various builds or roles don’t work.

Have we really come to the end of mesmer viability in this current meta? Has every single mesmer build possibility been explored for high end play and we’re down to this, or do you think we’re just giving up, laying down and succumbing to perceived reality?

Me being an eternal optimist, I have to believe there are builds/roles that mesmer can play that just haven’t been explored yet. I’m sure I’ll be told I’m wrong. What do you all think?

The short of it skcamow, is that between Helseth and I, we have tried what we and many believe to be every possible variation that we thought could be viable.

PU Shatter, PU condi, regular shatter, confounding shatter, mantra shatter, phantasm, gs/staff gs/s-f gs/s-t, gs/staff, lockdown, clone death, signets, bunker/bruiser, others I can’t think of off the top of my head.
We basically tried them all in high end team play and we talked about it back and forth. I’ve compared numbers/ideas/theorycrafting between team mates and many players I trust and respect. Mesmers just simply aren’t a good choice, when you can be replaced by a Thief if you don’t have one (or play Warrior, Ranger, Guardian – the sPvP Holy Trinity.)

I still believe that you can be on a winning team with a Mesmer (relating to what Helseth said about how the competition is bad enough that the shortfalls of Mesmer haven’t become as apparent as they should be), but it’s a handicap that you don’t need and often means not getting first place when instead you can pick a different class to avoid losing.

It’s important to note that Mesmer isn’t underpowered, but rather overshadowed by Thief. Same problem with Ele – overshadowed by Thief.

The idea that the community isn’t innovative has been thrown around and that the lack of innovation is the cause of Mesmers being not viable. But I can assure you, my team has tried to accommodate me, and I have kept an extremely open mind about potential builds and Mesmer roles, doubly confirmed by Helseth (who has specifically tried for an extended period to make Mesmer work in higher end team play after myself and the rest of us kind of abandoned) and a few other Mesmers that I think can adequately come to those conclusions. Helseth knows that Mesmer isn’t ideal, but that’s what he wants to play and he has been able to convince his team mates to let him continue trying.

Hopefully the March patch brings some new wind into the sails of Mesmers, because currently if you want an absolute tier 1 team composition, core requirements don’t include Mesmer.

I don’t mean to get off-topic from the original post, but I think you could argue this is somewhat related to motivation.

If you want to play Mesmer currently, play it in hot joins and solo queue, but don’t expect to be able to win everything.
If you want to win in team queue, learn Ranger, Warrior, Thief, or Guardian.

Supcutie.2538:

The short of it skcamow, is that between Helseth and I, we have tried what we and many believe to be every possible variation that we thought could be viable.

PU Shatter, PU condi, regular shatter, confounding shatter, mantra shatter, phantasm, gs/staff gs/s-f gs/s-t, gs/staff, lockdown, clone death, signets, bunker/bruiser, others I can’t think of off the top of my head.
We basically tried them all in high end team play and we talked about it back and forth. I’ve compared numbers/ideas/theorycrafting between team mates and many players I trust and respect. Mesmers just simply aren’t a good choice, when you can be replaced by a Thief if you don’t have one (or play Warrior, Ranger, Guardian – the sPvP Holy Trinity.)

I still believe that you can be on a winning team with a Mesmer (relating to what Helseth said about how the competition is bad enough that the shortfalls of Mesmer haven’t become as apparent as they should be), but it’s a handicap that you don’t need and often means not getting first place when instead you can pick a different class to avoid losing.

The idea that the community isn’t innovative has been thrown around and that the lack of innovation is the cause of Mesmers being not viable. But I can assure you, my team has tried to accommodate me, and I have kept an extremely open mind about potential builds and Mesmer roles, doubly confirmed by Helseth (who has specifically tried for an extended period to make Mesmer work in higher end team play after myself and the rest of us kind of abandoned) and a few other Mesmers that I think can adequately come to those conclusions. Helseth knows that Mesmer isn’t ideal, but that’s what he wants to play and he has been able to convince his team mates to let him continue trying.

Hopefully the March patch brings some new wind under the sails of Mesmers, because currently if you want an absolute tier 1 team composition, core requirements don’t include Mesmer.

I don’t mean to get off-topic from the original post, but I think you could argue this is somewhat related to motivation.

If you want to play Mesmer currently, play it in hot joins and solo queue, but don’t expect to be able to win everything.
If you want to win in team queue, learn Ranger, Warrior, Thief, or Guardian.

yep i gotta agree. in tpvp i tried almost every single build out there and i think tpvp is really not good on your mesmer.
i got the same problem in wvw though where i tried every single build and cant find anything that is very viable in zergfights. mes need aoe dmg and more team gameplay skills. we are too much of a 1v1 class atm and thats because of countless nerfs and too much ai dependency.

Supcutie.2538:

The short of it skcamow, is that between Helseth and I, we have tried what we and many believe to be every possible variation that we thought could be viable.

PU Shatter, PU condi, regular shatter, confounding shatter, mantra shatter, phantasm, gs/staff gs/s-f gs/s-t, gs/staff, lockdown, clone death, signets, bunker/bruiser, others I can’t think of off the top of my head.
We basically tried them all in high end team play and we talked about it back and forth. I’ve compared numbers/ideas/theorycrafting between team mates and many players I trust and respect. Mesmers just simply aren’t a good choice, when you can be replaced by a Thief if you don’t have one (or play Warrior, Ranger, Guardian – the sPvP Holy Trinity.)

I still believe that you can be on a winning team with a Mesmer (relating to what Helseth said about how the competition is bad enough that the shortfalls of Mesmer haven’t become as apparent as they should be), but it’s a handicap that you don’t need and often means not getting first place when instead you can pick a different class to avoid losing.

It’s important to note that Mesmer isn’t underpowered, but rather overshadowed by Thief. Same problem with Ele – overshadowed by Thief.

The idea that the community isn’t innovative has been thrown around and that the lack of innovation is the cause of Mesmers being not viable. But I can assure you, my team has tried to accommodate me, and I have kept an extremely open mind about potential builds and Mesmer roles, doubly confirmed by Helseth (who has specifically tried for an extended period to make Mesmer work in higher end team play after myself and the rest of us kind of abandoned) and a few other Mesmers that I think can adequately come to those conclusions. Helseth knows that Mesmer isn’t ideal, but that’s what he wants to play and he has been able to convince his team mates to let him continue trying.

Hopefully the March patch brings some new wind into the sails of Mesmers, because currently if you want an absolute tier 1 team composition, core requirements don’t include Mesmer.

I don’t mean to get off-topic from the original post, but I think you could argue this is somewhat related to motivation.

If you want to play Mesmer currently, play it in hot joins and solo queue, but don’t expect to be able to win everything.
If you want to win in team queue, learn Ranger, Warrior, Thief, or Guardian.

This is 100% accurate. It’s a very good post. However, it’s abundantly clear to me the developers are not listening.

A casual observer of the game could watch a handful of tournaments and come to the quick conclusion that there are certain professions which are simply not represented in high end gameplay.

I’m not at nearly the level of the luminaries being discussed here. But my position in the leaderboards has gone up more in the 15 or so games I’ve played in PvP on my engineer than in the previous 100 matches I played on my mesmer.

The difference in what I bring to a team is just night-and-day. I may still play mesmer for solo queue or hotjoin, but I can’t really justify it on a team.

And that despite me having a lot more experience playing mesmer than engineer.

It’s really disappointing.

Supcutie.2538:

snip

Thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated. You’ve given me a lot to think about on this topic. I hope the devs see and contemplate the various points you made.

I’m curious of a couple more things:

• For each of the roles you specified (PU Shatter, PU condi, regular shatter, confounding shatter, mantra shatter, phantasm, gs/staff gs/s-f gs/s-t, gs/staff, lockdown, clone death, signets, bunker/bruiser, etc), did you play them for a few hours, a few matches, or for extended periods to really flesh them out? From personal experience, learning a new build/style can take time to get comfortable with where you’re reacting naturally instead of thinking.

• What kind of bunker, lockdown, and signet build did you guys try? I think the others you mentioned go without saying but the three I mentioned there can go a couple different ways.

Supcutie.2538:

Thedenofsin.7340:

All this aside, I’d really like to know what role ANet has in mind for Mesmers.

Mesmer used to be very good at a roaming/decap/group support, but has not been viable since ANet buffed condition damage and buffed thieves almost a full year ago.

The condition meta has changed somewhat, but I still see thieves as just better for that role. In fact, if you watch any tPvP games with Helseth, you’ll see the current meta in action: the opposing team’s thief simply chases Helseth down the entire game and stomps him with impunity.

Since Mesmers really can’t run Zerker due to thieves, what should they run?

Yeah, he and I have started using sword torch gs with shatter traits and Halting Strike. Even though Thieves are better in the role, if you really want to play Mesmer the extra stealth helps deaggro the Thieves, hopefully allowing you to ignore them more or burst them out of stealth.

If torch was useful damage-wise, you’d be onto something. Like if iMage dealed more damage more frequently, or if he doled out revealed debuffs, it’d make Mesmers more useful.

Qaelyn.7612:

Thedenofsin.7340:

meichor.7809:

Sensotix have some great new builds (10/30/20/10/0 on youtube), give those a shot, they don’t have weakness against anything and give you great confidence on taking portal while not losing in fight survivability.

I can vouch for this. 10/30/20/10 can out-bunker just about anything 1v1, but it has so little team support that Portal becomes marginally useful. Played right, it’s crazy. The other night I had a condi-mancer repeatedly come to try to drop me on a side-node and couldn’t do it (I had Disenchanter instead of Portal).

Interesting. Anyone have a build editor link for this? I can’t make heads or tails of builds in videos.

I’m also cautious about getting enamored of any condition-based build until we see what Anet does to DE in a few weeks…

skcamow.3527:

Ok, so it appears that Helseth, Sensotix and possibly Supcutie have all appeared to abandon mesmer in higher end tPvP play:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Helseth-Sensotix-Quit-Mesmer

Yes, and the moderators closed that thread on the premise that “2 players quitting a profession is not relevant to Profession Balance”. What a load of malarkey!

The 3 top Mesmers, and, undisputably, 3 of the top Mesmers in the high-end competitive PvP environment, all universally agree the class is no longer viable, and that is not relevant.

If that doesn’t tell you there is something wrong with ANet’s perception of the game, nothing will.

This thread is so over dramatic. Mesmer as a class is fine. PU gives crazy protection up-time, phantasms deal way too much damage for being AI, GS has amazing ranged dps. I’m doing fine on my mesmer in pvp.

Everything is better when you jump into a game and go “ALL IS VAIN EXCEPT MY FUN, YOU CANNOT STOP MY HAPPINESS!” and do your best but not give a kitten if you lose. Get out the scotch, chew it and have a good ol time.

I’m not sure if I agree with pyro’s “It will never be competitive >=(((” opinion. Give it 5 years. Maybe people will care again. lol

Bacon.4918:

This thread is so over dramatic. Mesmer as a class is fine. PU gives crazy protection up-time, phantasms deal way too much damage for being AI, GS has amazing ranged dps. I’m doing fine on my mesmer in pvp.

And by fine we mean what? High ranked in team queue?

Solo que as a mesmer is fun. Enjoy it. We have a pretty unique class mechanic and high build diversity. So you play solo for fun or you dont. High end team que however rejects mesmers unfortunatly. Other classes can provide much more than a mesmer can in terms of team composition (roles, builds etc). Solo que is there to have fun, nothing else as its not fit to be truely competitive.
Thats my pep talk for you :p

Bacon.4918:

This thread is so over dramatic. Mesmer as a class is fine. PU gives crazy protection up-time, phantasms deal way too much damage for being AI, GS has amazing ranged dps. I’m doing fine on my mesmer in pvp.

When I see this message there was a flash in my head: “Thief spotted”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Opportunist-December-10th-Patch
Thief saying mesmers are fine should explain easily that mesmers need a hudge help.

WitchKing.5317:

Solo que as a mesmer is fun. Enjoy it. We have a pretty unique class mechanic and high build diversity. So you play solo for fun or you dont. High end team que however rejects mesmers unfortunatly. Other classes can provide much more than a mesmer can in terms of team composition (roles, builds etc). Solo que is there to have fun, nothing else as its not fit to be truely competitive.
Thats my pep talk for you :p

Pretty much this, i’ve given up on team queue mainly cause i can’t find people who i can stand playing with for more than a few games but also because of the current state of the game.
I’ve also kinda gone back to engineer but i honestly don’t find that as fun as mesmer anymore so it’s usually like a few solo queues a day as mesmer/engineer and then afk in the mist, since i pve is way to simplistic and boring for me to enjoy leveling in this game.

I’ve had a mesmer as my main since I started playing tPvP a few months ago. I recently picked up thief to see what all the fuss was about.

Flying halfway across the map, kitten on someone before they even know whats going on, then hauling kitten back across the map to support another point is too good.

In the end mesmer still works and is still lots of fun to play. I must admit I’m finding thief just a little bit more fun right now though. >:3

Also, don’t play warrior, warriors are lame.

Supcutie – I’m directing this question right at you (and Helseth and Sensotix and other players at the high end):

Let’s pretend a balance team developer actually read this thread (ha-ha). What changes would you suggest (buffs and/or nerfs) to make Mesmers viable in the meta? To narrow the scope, let’s limit the discussion to, say, 2 Mesmer builds:

Standard shatter 20/20/0/0/30
PU 20/20/30

Thedenofsin.7340:

Supcutie – I’m directing this question right at you (and Helseth and Sensotix and other players at the high end):

Let’s pretend a balance team developer actually read this thread (ha-ha). What changes would you suggest (buffs and/or nerfs) to make Mesmers viable in the meta? To narrow the scope, let’s limit the discussion to, say, 2 Mesmer builds:

Standard shatter 20/20/0/0/30
PU 20/20/30

I know it wasn’t directed at me but,
if you buff mesmer up to the point where they would ‘outshine’ the way thieves outshine mesmers now it might be in an even worse situation than now. Mesmer isn’t viable but the problem lies in other profession and not in the mesmer. Like I’ve heard phantaram say earlier, nerf the (condi)bunkers and then scale down thief. Because at the moment thieves just outshine mesmer and ele in every way, but nerfing thief now will make them useless for this meta too and you would just have 5 bunkers in every team.

I’m not asking for suggestions to make mesmers more powerful than thieves. I’m asking what changes would make them viable in the meta.

In terms of bringing Mesmers into the meta, and arguably Eles too, I think adjusting Thieves would be a good place to start (I like the class, but having an intrinsic mechanic that allows you to use the same ability over and over? Really dangerous). That said, you could argue that Mes is outshined in other areas as well like the damage per amount of survivability that warriors have. Then again, when you contrast sustained damage to burst damage, compromises should happen in the survivability area for example.

As a simple statement I would say that Mesmer is fine and other classes need to be changed to have more counterplay and nerfed in certain areas (evident of the proposed 8% signet nerf on Wars and Rez spirit healing reduction on Ranger). On Thief I think some examples of changes could be:

• Consecutively used skills having increasing Initiative costs.
• Bow 3 evade frames are shortened.
• ANY counterplay to stealth other than guessing and anticipating.
• Nerf Feline’s Grace? (specific to only a few specs)

If I were to try and fix everything (which is insanely complicated with many many different approaches that can be taken which differ based on perspective and visions for how the game should be ) I would probably have goals of:

• Making more Mesmer specs period.
• Making the specs make more sense synergistically. For example I think Shatter is one of the best specs in the game in terms of making sense with itself. I would love to see more of that!
• Changing reactive and passive mechanics to be more proactive – like changing the dissipation traits to be integrated in Shatters or something? I just don’t like gameplay mechanics that specifically reward not doing things. – Signets, spirits, AI with extended use (I think Shattering after one attack is fine, but Phantasm is a scumbag spec IMO), Stealthing with Prismatic Understanding or the stuff in Deadly Arts.
• So maybe making consecutive Phantasm attacks come out slower and slower to a cap? Making it so you might want to Shatter and be more active.
• Increasing counterplay (which should happen on all classes) – some examples of how to potentially do this on Mesmer would be:
  - Give a better indication that shatters have been queued to enemies
  - Potentially put a minimum delay on Shatter damage after usage (which could be compensated for in other ways)
  - Make stealth break on damage but with an unbreakable period shortly after stealthing? Which is for more than just Mesmer.

As I’ve mentioned, counterplay should be added to other classes as well. Like Elementalists for example: Even though they are not viable in the meta, that doesn’t mean they should be able to simultaneously use a bunch of instant cast spells that you can only anticipate.

• Give Mesmers better access to condi cleanse, even as specs like Shatter. Now to address this briefly, the argument against doing this is that by going Shatter you are actively not choosing condi cleanse. Let me just say though that Shatter is the only pure glass dps spec that doesn’t have condi cleanse, other than Lyssa and the extremely unreliable Warden on Temporal Curtain combo. Yeah you could take Arcane Thievery or Null Field, but as it turns out, these just don’t work very well in high end team play. The conclusion is that the usefulness and relative power of the utilities skills are not fully comparable (which happens on other classes too, but we’re in a pickle in terms of condi cleanse).
• Make clone on dodge a class mechanic but potentially give it an internal cooldown. For so many specs, 20 points in dueling is absolutely mandatory, which hinders build diversity.

There are many other things I don’t really know what to do with. Like Furious Interruption? Maybe the Quickness should be longer? I don’t even know.
Inspiration Line needs to be buffed I think. Support Mesmer doesn’t work because you have to go so tanky that you aren’t a threat, and even then you have to be in range of your allies, which simply doesn’t happen enough to warrant the spec, even if your team played around it (I’ve tried it).
Mantras need a lower cast time maybe? They are quite strong, but they aren’t used because they get interrupted too easily, which ends up having a net negative impact when the other team knows what they’re doing and can address you properly.

Veil?! – 90 second cooldown?? Good for WvW I suppose?

I suppose I could just go through every trait and skill and talk about the problems I have with it, but that’s for another time.

Some Quality of Life changes (which have been suggested many times) would be:

• Give portal a range indicator
• Fix bugs (obviously) like phantasms and leap not spawning on cast after weapon swap.
• Make the Leap more reliable, like teleport to the target instead of travelling?
• Fix stuck in place bug that seems to occur a lot with Phase Retreat. **
• Fix Port back bug where blink or whatever else will go on CD and put you back to where you were at the start. **
• Finally do away with global cooldown on Shatters
• Make PvE buffs and commander either able to be removed in PvP in game, or make that stuff appear on all clones.
• Make Clones/Phantasms Shatter on the Mesmer’s target, not just the closest enemy. I can’t even believe this still is a thing.

“**” – Not specific to Mesmer

Mesmer has a lot of interesting, seemingly synergetic specs but they just don’t hold up and I think it’s a combination of being overshadowed by other classes and the specs on Mesmer just don’t really making sense with themselves.

Anyway, to finish off the question of how to make Mesmers viable:

• Adjust Thieves, since Mesmers and Thieves are arguably in the same role, yet Thieves do it better than Mesmers in more ways than Mesmers do it better than Thieves.
• Some things related to what I talked about >_>
• Condi Cleanse? On that note, I think Lyssa should be nerfed. – Helps Thieves and Wars disproportionately more than many others.

I probably missed a bunch of stuff in this post but it should give you a general idea.

I also think (and I am not surprised) that there are probably some business undertones at Anet, where they are told to make the game easier, more casual, higher luck to skill ratio, in order to have more of the population feel like they are on average having more success, thus more fun, thus spending more money. This is not necessarily anti-consumer but rather anti-competition. It is possible to have a consistent and enjoyable player experience at all levels of play without cutting corners like that. We want #counterplay.

P.S. I’ve asked a lot of people over time, and if they had to choose between proper balance and more counterplay – the vast majority said that they would rather be able to react, implement effective countermeasures, and not rely majorly on guessing and anticipation, even if it’s really hard, than have good balance without counterplay.

Supcutie.2538:

The short of it skcamow, is that between Helseth and I, we have tried what we and many believe to be every possible variation that we thought could be viable.

PU Shatter, PU condi, regular shatter, confounding shatter, mantra shatter, phantasm, gs/staff gs/s-f gs/s-t, gs/staff, lockdown, clone death, signets, bunker/bruiser, others I can’t think of off the top of my head.
We basically tried them all in high end team play and we talked about it back and forth. I’ve compared numbers/ideas/theorycrafting between team mates and many players I trust and respect. Mesmers just simply aren’t a good choice, when you can be replaced by a Thief if you don’t have one (or play Warrior, Ranger, Guardian – the sPvP Holy Trinity.)

Out of curiosity, how much time did you spend on the non-shatter specs? Also, of all the ones you tried which build-types showed the most promise?

I think at the least I spent a whole day on each really trying, and most multiple days of team queuing. Which might seem short but I think I was able to play them to prob 80-90% efficiency based on videos I had watched, knowledge I had about other people playing the spec, with the help of my team mates, general understanding of mechanics, and what things I can do integrating my own experiences and ideas.

Most promise: Shatter with S/T, Shatter with Staff/GS, Shatter with Confounding Suggestions and 20 inspiration w/ heal mantra, Phantasm can work if you’re not focusing on team fights, but it can get overwhelmed easily.

Basically all the others fell short in some way like not enough damage, not enough disengage, not enough ranged damage, not enough efficiency.
You need enough damage to be a threat, but you need enough survivability to keep going. This really only leaves a few actual good candidates.

Supcutie.2538:

Most promise: Shatter with S/T, Shatter with Staff/GS, Shatter with Confounding Suggestions and 20 inspiration w/ heal mantra, Phantasm can work if you’re not focusing on team fights, but it can get overwhelmed easily.

Sorry, just to make sure we are talking about the same thing. By shatter do you mean IP – 30pts in Illusions tree as starting point for any builds you mentioned?

If so, it means shatter and its variations seem to be the only viable playstyle in tpvp which is the contrary of what people say about wvw (at least this is what I read on the forum) which I find it kind of amusing.

Unfortunately I can’t add anything from my own experience since I only do solo queu and not organized pvp.

Yeah so Shatter spec meaning major and minor traits and synergies that have to do with the Shatter abilities. So like strip boons on Shatter, Illusionary Persona, and Deceptive Evasion. Can mix the points around a little but those traits/point spreads are the general idea.