Guild Wars 2

Choppy.4183:

@apharma
A couple things about your line of reasoning here. First, by that rationale Anet always understands the implications of the changes it makes and everything is deliberate, which is an unrealistic expectation. But if it were true, they would never need to make “balance changes” unless they consistently change their mind about what they want. Either way, your “that’s what Anet wants” falls apart.

As for the reasons for changes, I’ve already provided them. In the PU thread, I provided specific reasons tied directly to the proposed rollback on one aspect of one trait. In this thread, I’ve been more general, pointing out broader balance problems (e.g. the ability of low-skill to trump high skill based solely on class), leaving specific “fixes” to people with a better handle on the class (like DaShi).

At no point have I said, “Mesmer needs to be nerfed now because I say so!”, and it’s disingenuous for you to say otherwise. I’m in the process of transitioning over to mesmer right now… if I was the sort of person you seem to be implying, I’d be one of those people claiming mesmer is balanced and everyone who says otherwise be hatin’.

His experience is that a defensive trait that lets you escape worked!! He didn’t die and was able to escape while his havoc party died. The damage from all classes needs to be looked at. Pre patch Mesmer had steAlth burts. I think your reasoning to nerf pu is off. Recap pu is a defensive trait that lets the Mesmer disengage or reposition and it is currently working as intended.

@apharma
Said what wasn’t overpowered? PU? Mesmers? I think I’ve been pretty clear about my positions regarding both.

And, no, Anet makes the changes it does with (I suspect) the best possible motivations. But releasing them into the wild is how they find out the implications of those changes because there are way too many variables for them to predict how things will play out. They’ve just released a massive overhaul to the trait system and it appears mesmers have a number of things about them that are out of balance with the other classes. They aren’t the only class with OP aspects, but they have quite a few.

Nobody has said mesmers need to be completely reworked, people have called for general and specific balance adjustments that in no takes it outside the “region” (whatever that means) of where they are now.

@denis
You could focus on that one aspect and ignore the rest (like me outfighting thieves, warriors, etc with much higher skill than me, dishing out enormous damage from relative safety in group fights, etc), and generally misconstrue me surviving party wipes as something it wasn’t, I guess. Whatever gets you through the night, sweetheart.

You could also dismiss PU as a defensive trait, I suppose, ignoring that extra defense on an otherwise offense build is what allows you to sustain dps. It’d be consistent with you thinking a warrior Healing Signet = “god mode” sustain, so, clearly you have a good handle on cross class game balance…. lmao

But hey, keep living in denial, i guess. I predict rivers of salty tears from you when the Nerfbat eventually hits if you think the current state is actually balanced.

Choppy.4183:

@apharma
Said what wasn’t overpowered? PU? Mesmers? I think I’ve been pretty clear about my positions regarding both.

And, no, Anet makes the changes it does with (I suspect) the best possible motivations. But releasing them into the wild is how they find out the implications of those changes because there are way too many variables for them to predict how things will play out. They’ve just released a massive overhaul to the trait system and it appears mesmers have a number of things about them that are out of balance with the other classes. They aren’t the only class with OP aspects, but they have quite a few.

Nobody has said mesmers need to be completely reworked, people have called for general and specific balance adjustments that in no takes it outside the “region” (whatever that means) of where they are now.

@denis
You could focus on that one aspect and ignore the rest (like me outfighting thieves, warriors, etc with much higher skill than me, dishing out enormous damage from relative safety in group fights, etc), and generally misconstrue me surviving party wipes as something it wasn’t, I guess. Whatever gets you through the night, sweetheart.

You could also dismiss PU as a defensive trait, I suppose, ignoring that extra defense on an otherwise offense build is what allows you to sustain dps. It’d be consistent with you thinking a warrior Healing Signet = “god mode” sustain, so, clearly you have a good handle on cross class game balance…. lmao

But hey, keep living in denial, i guess. I predict rivers of salty tears from you when the Nerfbat eventually hits if you think the current state is actually balanced.

Your issue with Mesmer is the fact that they are finally entering the same playing field you enjoyed as a warrior sweetheart (seems funny calling me that). Also ele guardian and the many other classes that enjoyed being able to burst and sustain. So the issue is Mesmer being on par with the rest of the classes. Hopefully if the nerfbat hits it is on something that should be stat increases, blind on shatter working through evade and a small cooldown on cs. Not a perfectly designed defensive trait. It seems you have cried enough tears for your warrior because you constantly come here.

At this point, I have to agree with denis. It looking like a personal grudge against PU discarding logical arguments in favor of personal complaints.

Warriors have enjoyed an excellent spot in all types of gameplay for sometime. It used to be that mesmers easily countered warriors, then that changed to where warriors were much stronger than mesmers. The last patch allowed mesmers to hold their own against warriors, but I guess that’s just not acceptable to warriors.

I’m sorry there’s a build out there that your warrior can’t beat. God knows he’s “supposed” to.

@DaShi
It’s a pity you feel that way.

You’ve called for deeper cuts to mesmer than I have on the grounds of balance, whereas denis has repeatedly said mesmers are exactly where they should be.

I’ve challenged you on one argument about PU, and you’ve opted to assume motivations that aren’t there and generalized them to all warriors instead of addressing the issue. You left your argument at,

DaShi.1368:

My overall point is that the problem with PU isn’t PU. It’s the inconsistent way that stealth is implemented on mesmers. Mesmers can still use damage skills while in stealth. With this fixed, the problems with PU become significantly less.

Which is a helluva lot closer to my position than denis’. The difference is you want a more aggressive intervention to mesmer stealth than what I’ve proposed, yet, in your mind, I’m the one that wants to trash the class out of… envy? Suit yourself.

I’ll just stick with mesmer because it’s clearly the superior class. Eventually you’ll notice other people realizing the same thing.

Choppy.4183:

@DaShi
It’s a pity you feel that way.

You’ve called for deeper cuts to mesmer than I have on the grounds of balance, whereas denis has repeatedly said mesmers are exactly where they should be.

I’ve challenged you on one argument about PU, and you’ve opted to assume motivations that aren’t there and generalized them to all warriors instead of addressing the issue. You left your argument at,

DaShi.1368:

My overall point is that the problem with PU isn’t PU. It’s the inconsistent way that stealth is implemented on mesmers. Mesmers can still use damage skills while in stealth. With this fixed, the problems with PU become significantly less.

Which is a helluva lot closer to my position than denis’. The difference is you want a more aggressive intervention on mesmers than what I’ve proposed yet, in your mind, I’m the one that wants to trash the class out of… envy? Suit yourself.

You keep calling me buddy troll sweetheart but I don’t think you read. My issue is with constantly trying to nerf pu. I have been saying over and over again that 1 all classes need the stats from trait lines moved to items looked at 2 blind on shatters 3 small cd on cs. In no way shape or form did I say we are fine. Pu is fine it is a defensive trait that when taken takes away from another line that can be used for more burst or control. Seems pretty balanced to me.

Choppy.4183:

@DaShi
It’s a pity you feel that way.

You’ve called for deeper cuts to mesmer than I have on the grounds of balance, whereas denis has repeatedly said mesmers are exactly where they should be.

I’ve challenged you on one argument about PU, and you’ve opted to assume motivations that aren’t there and generalized them to all warriors instead of addressing the issue. You left your argument at,

I looked at your posting history. Your motivations are there for everyone to see. You just don’t like PU and mesmers because they interfere with your warrior roaming in WvW. If you want people to believe something else, post something else.

denis.9487:

You keep calling me buddy troll sweetheart but I don’t think you read. My issue is with constantly trying to nerf pu. I have been saying over and over again that 1 all classes need the stats from trait lines moved to items looked at 2 blind on shatters 3 small cd on cs. In no way shape or form did I say we are fine. Pu is fine it is a defensive trait that when taken takes away from another line that can be used for more burst or control. Seems pretty balanced to me.

DaShi also wants to take away mesmers ability to do damage from stealth. Would you prefer that to changing a 100% stealth bonus to an extra 1-2 sec stealth bonus?

If so, go ahead and start petitioning Anet, but know you’re asking to nerf mesmers more than I am.

DaShi.1368:

I looked at your posting history. Your motivations are there for everyone to see. You just don’t like PU and mesmers because they interfere with your warrior roaming in WvW. If you want people to believe something else, post something else.

Like when I wrote something like this, more than once, for that matter?

Choppy.4183:

I think most people that main mesmers recognize that things aren’t balanced at the moment, but they’ll also rightly point out that a lot of things aren’t balanced. Frankly, I’d hate to see the same thing happen to mesmer that happened to warrior, basically, demands for nerfs to the class at the slightest whiff of OP, real or not, thereby unnecessarily sucking the fun out of things….

I don’t know yet what’s required to bring things in balance, but I’m pretty certain blanket nerfs will make things worse.

No, I’ve called for a rollback on one aspect of PU and holding off on anything too drastic despite the evident balance problem. You’ve called for much deeper cuts to mesmer stealth and mesmers generally than I have.

StickerHappy.8052:

MailMail.6534:

Hard counters are called hard counters for a reason. It allows someone with less skill to easily beat someone with more skill due to the innate imbalances between two specific build archetypes.

Comparing Condi War/Mesmer versus thief is not a legitimate argument here. The reason you might have not had as much success is because Condi War =/= Condi Mesmer. To reiterate, the builds and mechanics are different.

This is so wrong. Hard counters should be “an equally skilled or almost equally skilled (10 to a 9.5) player will have a greater chance to kill you because of a class mechanic” Otherwise, there would be no point if he is less skilled, he will never beat you if he is less skilled, if he does then i do not know what to say. That logic that thieves hard counters mesmers is true BUT, assuming this is equal skill. If you pitted me against a D/P thief more less skilled than me? (i.e. He is 7 and I am a 10) Goodluck to that thief.

If you still believe on your argument, Create a thief and fight my shatter mesmer. I am expecting you to win most if not all matches.

I’m not wrong at all. lol Whether you call it “class mechanic” or I say “innate imbalance between two specific build archetypes”, it still theoretically allows someone at a skill level of 7 to beat someone at a 10. The person at 10 has to work harder than the person at 7 if 7 is a hard counter. Maybe the thieves you’re facing are more of a 3 instead of a 7. I don’t think most thief players are very skillful at all anyway.

I don’t have to create a thief to prove the point, because countless high skilled shattered Mesmers have gotten destroyed by theives that were awfully less skill than them. Go watch some streams. I didn’t know this was even an argument among Mesmers.

MailMail.6534:

StickerHappy.8052:

MailMail.6534:

Hard counters are called hard counters for a reason. It allows someone with less skill to easily beat someone with more skill due to the innate imbalances between two specific build archetypes.

Comparing Condi War/Mesmer versus thief is not a legitimate argument here. The reason you might have not had as much success is because Condi War =/= Condi Mesmer. To reiterate, the builds and mechanics are different.

This is so wrong. Hard counters should be “an equally skilled or almost equally skilled (10 to a 9.5) player will have a greater chance to kill you because of a class mechanic” Otherwise, there would be no point if he is less skilled, he will never beat you if he is less skilled, if he does then i do not know what to say. That logic that thieves hard counters mesmers is true BUT, assuming this is equal skill. If you pitted me against a D/P thief more less skilled than me? (i.e. He is 7 and I am a 10) Goodluck to that thief.

If you still believe on your argument, Create a thief and fight my shatter mesmer. I am expecting you to win most if not all matches.

I’m not wrong at all. lol Whether you call it “class mechanic” or I say “innate imbalance between two specific build archetypes”, it still theoretically allows someone at a skill level of 7 to beat someone at a 10. The person at 10 has to work harder than the person at 7 if 7 is a hard counter. Maybe the thieves you’re facing are more of a 3 instead of a 7. I don’t think most thief players are very skillful at all anyway.

I don’t have to create a thief to prove the point, because countless high skilled shattered Mesmers have gotten destroyed by theives that were awfully less skill than them. Go watch some streams. I didn’t know this was even an argument among Mesmers.

Getting a 3/10 of a thief in my MMR (I still think it works somehow) is almost impossible.

Choppy.4183:

They could use a tweak or two, yeah. I’m currently lobbying to have the stealth buff on PU reverted to what it was, but they’re overall more deadly without it (most quality mesmers don’t run it in favour of more burst).

You’re asking for the stealth duration to be reduced by anywhere between 50% and 80% in all cases. This is after agreeing it actually offers no advantage over the mode Anet balances over and you agreed other trait lines are better in another thread I believe.

Anyway the point really was that if you think something is too strong you need to make an argument for it to be reduced and what to, not say it needs to be reduced then ask for arguments as to why it shouldn’t.

Ever thought the reason people are winning on mesmers is partially down to a lot of people not fighting mesmers that stood a chance unless you invested hundreds of hours into it? I know I was effective as a thief after not even an hour after playing it in WvW, same deal, people generally can’t deal with them.

Same with rapid fire rangers, thankfully people have adjusted and Anet didn’t listen to the nerf calls.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/676641435 check out from 1hr 54mins on. You have oRNG vs TCG, no mesmer on oRNG and you can see how close all these games are. The real game changing moves from the mesmer was the portal plays same as usual, the only thing that’s really changed for Helseth is he doesn’t seem to die in the blink of an eye to thieves any more but he still gets trained down hard in fights.

Watch the way the mesmer is player and the way others play and you’ll see mesmer is far from wrecking everything it sees.

@apharma
I’m mostly backing off the thread because, beating dead horses and whatnot. But to your points:

1. If it doesn’t convey a benefit to pvp, it means pvp provides absolutely no reason to keep the long stealth. We know that ANet does pay attention to other game modes and makes changes in response to what goes on there. So we have a situation where a buff is way too strong in one part of the game, and it can be safely fixed without affecting the other parts.
2. Needing to be a skilled mesmer in order to be a threat. I mean, all classes need time investment to be a threat to skilled players. That I can be a major threat to skilled non-mesmers when I’m mesmer trash is absolutely not consistent with how it is for other classes, imo.

I’ve never played a Rapid Fire ranger, but they’re usually pretty boned if you can close the distance and there are lots of tools to do that. Sometimes you can’t close and they get a cheap win, but it’s pretty limited. It’s because of Rapid Fire that rangers tend to get trained first in a fight too, so it’s a bit of a mixed blessing for them.

Choppy.4183:

@apharma
I’m mostly backing off the thread

Now if you could just “completely back off the subforum”, that would be even better. You’ve been doing nothing but dead-horse-beating for a long while now, and you’ve been exposed as the Warrior apologist you are.

Well hell, Arshay, I may just have to stick around just for you. Thanks for the motivation.

You should also learn what the words you use mean. “Warrior apologist” wouldn’t apply even if I was doing what you think I’m doing, which I’m not.

Choppy.4183:

Well hell, Arshay, I may just have to stick around just for you. Thanks for the motivation.

That just confirms you’re only here to troll, and thus only proves my point. Well done.

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Choppy.4183:

Well hell, Arshay, I may just have to stick around just for you. Thanks for the motivation.

That just confirms you’re only here to troll, and thus only proves my point. Well done.

What’s adorable is that in a thread that’s literally asking, “why do people hate mesmers?”, you’d rather have it be a bunch of people who main mesmers telling each other that everyone else just be hatin’ and anyone who dares say otherwise is just another hater. lmao

Oh look, he’s still going, despite supposedly “backing off the thread”. “Adorable” and “lmao”, is it? You’re only making more and more of a fool of yourself. Your arguments have been rebuffed and your true motivations exposed. Is this really all that’s left for you? Naked taunting?

“Backing off the thread”. “Kitty”.

Point proven.

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

“Backing off the thread”.

Point proven.

I mean, I was going to, but then you had to cast that last stone, trying to get me off the subforum altogether. That sort of aggression can’t stand, man.

Will you apologize? You really should. These are public forums for everybody, not just people who believe the same things you do, you know.

I’ve taken a lot of abuse here, with my motivations and character called into question repeatedly, when all I’ve done is try to answer the threads question.

Point proven.

Confirmation bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Choppy.4183:

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

“Backing off the thread”.

Point proven.

I mean, I was going to, but then you had to cast that last stone, trying to get me off the subforum altogether. That sort of aggression can’t stand, man.

Will you apologize? You really should. These are public forums for everybody, not just people who believe the same things you do, you know.

I’ve taken a lot of abuse here, with my motivations and character called into question repeatedly, when all I’ve done is try to answer the threads question.

No one is questioning your motivations. We all clearly know what they are.

Because:

Warrior dealt pretty well with Thief.
Mesmer dealt pretty well with Warrior.
Thief dealt pretty well with Mesmer.

Now:

Mesmer absolutely wrecks Warrior (tbf, Warrior is the worst 1v1er and solo roaming, but hey that’s never balanced…)
Mesmer has tools to deal with thief, but not completely as Stealth is a thing that needs a rebalance (Lock-on from engineers is not a real fix.)
Mesmer also got the most things made baseline which has caused massive ire from other professions.

…Also getting Aegis from PU sort of negates counter-playing Stealth. But hey that’s just my personal bias.

Mesmer is just the ‘newest’ of the current threats right now and therefore most likely to cause an emotional response which translates to rage kittens on various fora. But really, they just need to branch out with their hate a bit…….like me!

In WvW I had a Warrior dodge roll by me last week and I ate a 7.4K Reckless Dodge from that. Then I dodged a bunch of stuff but got hit by one hammer auto-attack for 4.1K. That’s more than half my health from a dodge roll and an auto-attack. It all felt very pre-ferocity and I hated that this could happen.

I had to walk through the edge of an Ele Meteor Shower and was hit by two meteors for 6.9K and 7.5K. I hated that that could happen.

Ate a 13.5K backstab from a Thief that had stealth stacked around a corner somewhere distant. That was pretty hateful.

Having a Guardian do the same with Judge’s Intervention and Binding Blade as he teleports through a wall/floor on top of me also filled me with hate.

Then there was the Ranger that spiked me for 12.5K with a quickness Rapid fire at 1500 range. That brought up a lot of hate.

The only things I’m not finding much to hate on right now are Necros and Engis.

I must find something to hate about them. Any tips?

Simonoly.4352:

Mesmer is just the ‘newest’ of the current threats right now and therefore most likely to cause an emotional response which translates to rage kittens on various fora. But really, they just need to branch out with their hate a bit…….like me!

In WvW I had a Warrior dodge roll by me last week and I ate a 7.4K Reckless Dodge from that. Then I dodged a bunch of stuff but got hit by one hammer auto-attack for 4.1K. That’s more than half my health from a dodge roll and an auto-attack. It all felt very pre-ferocity and I hated that this could happen.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Dodge

Just outlining two things that make this story utterly unbelievable. I don’t even think full zerker with 25 stacks might could land a 7.4k Reckless Dodge, unless perhaps you were uplevel glass-cannon and I can’t consider that scenario likely or relevant.

Simonoly.4352:

The only things I’m not finding much to hate on right now are Necros and Engis.

I must find something to hate about them. Any tips?

Hating on Lich autos is pretty popular.

Choppy.4183:

I’ve never played a Rapid Fire ranger, but they’re usually pretty boned if you can close the distance and there are lots of tools to do that. Sometimes you can’t close and they get a cheap win, but it’s pretty limited. It’s because of Rapid Fire that rangers tend to get trained first in a fight too, so it’s a bit of a mixed blessing for them.

You read but didn’t think or just completely missed the point. When rapid fire was buffed a lot of people screamed for nerfs, said it effectively gave too much reward to rangers (burst from safe range) especially in WvW and there was a lot of it. That’s mostly calmed down now because people have learnt to fight it and changed builds accordingly.

Choppy.4183:

1. If it doesn’t convey a benefit to pvp, it means pvp provides absolutely no reason to keep the long stealth. We know that ANet does pay attention to other game modes and makes changes in response to what goes on there. So we have a situation where a buff is way too strong in one part of the game, and it can be safely fixed without affecting the other parts.

You’re still not seeing it and I’m getting sick of trying to explain it without sock puppets.

IF a skill or trait in PvP is not conveying much of an advantage, it is not conducive to getting points faster and by your own admittance has much better options elsewhere then you don’t need to change/nerf it. Changing something that was buffed in the patch back to pre patch when it meets these conditions is just silly.

Choppy.4183:

1. Needing to be a skilled mesmer in order to be a threat. I mean, all classes need time investment to be a threat to skilled players. That I can be a major threat to skilled non-mesmers when I’m mesmer trash is absolutely not consistent with how it is for other classes, imo.

Again, that could be because people just aren’t used to dealing with mesmer burst because there just weren’t that many around pre patch. Which brings us back to rapid fire syndrome, I’ve already heard of other classes adapting, changing and saying they’re beating mesmers now. The thing is, it will take time as we’ve all had traits completely messed up all across the classes.

This is why I want nerfs or “reversions”, as you like to disguise the name, left for a while before Anet can get a handle on the wider issues.

Simonoly.4352:

Mesmer is just the ‘newest’ of the current threats right now and therefore most likely to cause an emotional response which translates to rage kittens on various fora. But really, they just need to branch out with their hate a bit…….like me!

In WvW I had a Warrior dodge roll by me last week and I ate a 7.4K Reckless Dodge from that. Then I dodged a bunch of stuff but got hit by one hammer auto-attack for 4.1K. That’s more than half my health from a dodge roll and an auto-attack. It all felt very pre-ferocity and I hated that this could happen.

I had to walk through the edge of an Ele Meteor Shower and was hit by two meteors for 6.9K and 7.5K. I hated that that could happen.

Ate a 13.5K backstab from a Thief that had stealth stacked around a corner somewhere distant. That was pretty hateful.

Having a Guardian do the same with Judge’s Intervention and Binding Blade as he teleports through a wall/floor on top of me also filled me with hate.

Then there was the Ranger that spiked me for 12.5K with a quickness Rapid fire at 1500 range. That brought up a lot of hate.

The only things I’m not finding much to hate on right now are Necros and Engis.

I must find something to hate about them. Any tips?

:D not bad.

The thing I find funniest/strangest is that a lot of things players are complainig about to do with mesmers already existed for ages before the patch such as stealth bursts – it’s only a small number of things that can be considered excessive post patch.

Curunen.8729:

Simonoly.4352:

Mesmer is just the ‘newest’ of the current threats right now and therefore most likely to cause an emotional response which translates to rage kittens on various fora. But really, they just need to branch out with their hate a bit…….like me!

In WvW I had a Warrior dodge roll by me last week and I ate a 7.4K Reckless Dodge from that. Then I dodged a bunch of stuff but got hit by one hammer auto-attack for 4.1K. That’s more than half my health from a dodge roll and an auto-attack. It all felt very pre-ferocity and I hated that this could happen.

I had to walk through the edge of an Ele Meteor Shower and was hit by two meteors for 6.9K and 7.5K. I hated that that could happen.

Ate a 13.5K backstab from a Thief that had stealth stacked around a corner somewhere distant. That was pretty hateful.

Having a Guardian do the same with Judge’s Intervention and Binding Blade as he teleports through a wall/floor on top of me also filled me with hate.

Then there was the Ranger that spiked me for 12.5K with a quickness Rapid fire at 1500 range. That brought up a lot of hate.

The only things I’m not finding much to hate on right now are Necros and Engis.

I must find something to hate about them. Any tips?

:D not bad.

The thing I find funniest/strangest is that a lot of things players are complainig about to do with mesmers already existed for ages before the patch such as stealth bursts – it’s only a small number of things that can be considered excessive post patch.

Mesmers and thieves always were new player killers since they usually have the most trouble targeting the mesmer and differentiating from clones and stealth can usually throw new people for a loop easily. People who didn’t really feel like learning how mesmers worked just adapted to face tank things and heal afterwards. Now you can’t do that and they’re left up a creek without a paddle. So what should we do? Nerf the creek apparently.

apharma.3741:

You read but didn’t think or just completely missed the point. When rapid fire was buffed a lot of people screamed for nerfs, said it effectively gave too much reward to rangers (burst from safe range) especially in WvW and there was a lot of it. That’s mostly calmed down now because people have learnt to fight it and changed builds accordingly.

Indeed, I thought you were making another point. What’s not clear to me is why you’d direct that at me when all I’ve called for is some sort of rollback on a buff to one trait that wasn’t asked for by the mesmer community but is causing real grief in wvw and has no real counterplay. In the PU thread, I even said I’d support a buff to Veil and probably a slightly smaller buff to the PU stealth bonus than it received, but a buff nonetheless. Otherwise, I’ve recreated text I’ve posted elsewhere saying it’d probably be better to hold off nerfing the class for a while until the real problems are actually understood. Completely consistent with your ranger point.

Meanwhile, others on this thread (e.g. DaShi) have called for several nerfs that would be more significant to the class, including one to stealth that would have implications beyond PU and wvw, yet somehow I’m the one portrayed as the warrior troll with an agenda to trash the class.

apharma.3741:

You’re still not seeing it and I’m getting sick of trying to explain it without sock puppets.

IF a skill or trait in PvP is not conveying much of an advantage, it is not conducive to getting points faster and by your own admittance has much better options elsewhere then you don’t need to change/nerf it. Changing something that was buffed in the patch back to pre patch when it meets these conditions is just silly.

I’m afraid it’s you that’s not getting it, though I’ll try not to be as rude as you just were while I explain it to you again.

Yes, the long stealth bonus doesn’t appear to give much of an advantage in pvp and there are probably better traits to take anyway. Your point is, “therefore, there’s no reason to reduce it”. My counterpoint is, “that also means there’s also no pvp reason to leave it as is because PU stealth is a non factor in pvp… but it IS a problem in a significant part of wvw, and solving that problem would be relatively easy with no impact on pvp precisely because of your point, that PU stealth isn’t a factor there.”

Is that clear now?

apharma.3741:

Again, that could be because people just aren’t used to dealing with mesmer burst because there just weren’t that many around pre patch. Which brings us back to rapid fire syndrome, I’ve already heard of other classes adapting, changing and saying they’re beating mesmers now. The thing is, it will take time as we’ve all had traits completely messed up all across the classes.

Well, you’ll have to validate that claim. Speaking solely for myself, I have quite a lot of experience fighting mesmers in wvw and, pre-patch, they already had a class advantage over my main (and not once did I write anywhere complaining about it). Immediately before patch, shatter mesmers were the popular choice for build, though condi had its day before that, especially when the original PU came out (and was subsequently nerfed, I might add).

Meanwhile, I’ve already reported back on MY experience being on the other side of a PU mesmer, and how it’s a total faceroll over many opponents with obviously greater class skill than I have with the mesmer. This has included strangers who’s skill I can kitten based on my real ability with their class, and people I know who are both familiar with their class and have plenty of experience fighting mesmers.

This is evidence that speaks directly against your assumption that people just don’t have experience fighting against mesmers. You haven’t provided any evidence to support your claim, nor have you accounted for why there’d be a difference in the number of mesmer bursts people now have to confront.

apharma.3741:

This is why I want nerfs or “reversions”, as you like to disguise the name, left for a while before Anet can get a handle on the wider issues.

I use the word revert because that’s the appropriate word to use. I’ve proposed bringing one trait back to where it was three weeks ago when nobody had an issue with it. A nerf could be more cutting like, for example, proposing that mesmers shouldn’t do damage while in stealth (e.g. clones, phantasms).

Somehow that gets a pass by the mesmer community, while a proposal to something that apparently doesn’t matter to any part of the game “that matters” (as some of you would have it), is a plot to destroy the class. Amazing.

Choppy I think you are still missing the boat. You want to nerf a defensive trait because it works by your own admission. The burst as explained before was there pre patch along with or without pu. You posted in the warrior forum that you think it should remain until hot comes, then you start a nerf pu campaign over in the Mesmer forum. 3 weeks in and I can honestly say players are countering Mesmer quite well. Rangers warriors eles guardians all I classes I have met in pvp and wvw and this issue is not something to nerf. You choose to target a trait that is not the issue. The class wide damage increase is an issue. The problem is asking for a nerf on something that isn’t the offender.

No denis, you’re not hearing the point. It’s not the burst I’m referring to but the stealth benefit that makes landing those bursts and avoiding counter bursts a problem.

I’ve expressed this a number of ways, most clearly, I think, by referring to the risk:reward ratio being way too low relative to other classes.

That burst damage is unaffected by PU is not in dispute. That burst from stealth was possible pre-patch, and is a standard tactic without PU now, is not in dispute.

I posted in the warrior thread that I was lobbying to have PU stealth reduced, which I was in the PU thread. I said demands from warriors for further nerfs should/could probably wait until HoT.

Sykper.6583:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Dodge

Just outlining two things that make this story utterly unbelievable. I don’t even think full zerker with 25 stacks might could land a 7.4k Reckless Dodge, unless perhaps you were uplevel glass-cannon and I can’t consider that scenario likely or relevant.

I was on a mixture of zerk and knight’s at the time. Fully levelled. I have screenshots of all the scenarios I mentioned because they made me chuckle

Choppy.4183:

No denis, you’re not hearing the point. It’s not the burst I’m referring to but the stealth benefit that makes landing those bursts and avoiding counter bursts a problem.

I’ve expressed this a number of ways, most clearly, I think, by referring to the risk:reward ratio as being way too low relative to other classes.

That burst damage is unaffected by PU is not in dispute. That burst from stealth was possible pre-patch, and is a standard tactic without PU now, is not in dispute.

I posted in the warrior thread that I was lobbying to have PU stealth reduced, which I was in the PU thread. I said demands for further nerfs should/could probably wait until HoT.

Then the issue is with the game. It had been stated over and over. Burst pre patch was there. Post patch burst still there with or without pu. The issue you are having is learn to play or don’t play the game. Because you are not happy with stealth doesn’t mean nerf a trait that is working.

Simonoly.4352:

I was on a mixture of zerk and knight’s at the time. Fully levelled. I have screenshots of all the scenarios I mentioned because they made me chuckle

Please post the screenshots and the warrior IGN if you have it. The damage calc doesn’t allow for Reckless Dodge to proc that high (even criting with 25 might and 25 vulnerability), so it may be a bug.

denis.9487:

Choppy.4183:

No denis, you’re not hearing the point. It’s not the burst I’m referring to but the stealth benefit that makes landing those bursts and avoiding counter bursts a problem.

I’ve expressed this a number of ways, most clearly, I think, by referring to the risk:reward ratio as being way too low relative to other classes.

That burst damage is unaffected by PU is not in dispute. That burst from stealth was possible pre-patch, and is a standard tactic without PU now, is not in dispute.

I posted in the warrior thread that I was lobbying to have PU stealth reduced, which I was in the PU thread. I said demands for further nerfs should/could probably wait until HoT.

Then the issue is with the game. It had been stated over and over. Burst pre patch was there. Post patch burst still there with or without pu. The issue you are having is learn to play or don’t play the game. Because you are not happy with stealth doesn’t mean nerf a trait that is working.

Sorry denis, I’m done. I just pointed to the issue for you, and all you did was restate something that’s not in dispute (after I explicitly said it wasn’t) and completely beside the point.

If I was concerned about burst, I wouldn’t be focusing on PU stealth, would I? No.

That’s been a pretty consistent refrain here… people reading things into what’s being said, making assumptions about motivations, and then presenting counter arguments that are completely unrelated to the point being made.

Ultimately, whatever. I’ll keep running a PU build to cover for obscenely low skill with a mesmer until I get good enough to do more interesting things, and those that want to keep telling themselves that the “mesmer hate” is all from people who just don’t understand the game can keep living in the bubble.

Choppy.4183:

denis.9487:

Choppy.4183:

No denis, you’re not hearing the point. It’s not the burst I’m referring to but the stealth benefit that makes landing those bursts and avoiding counter bursts a problem.

I’ve expressed this a number of ways, most clearly, I think, by referring to the risk:reward ratio as being way too low relative to other classes.

That burst damage is unaffected by PU is not in dispute. That burst from stealth was possible pre-patch, and is a standard tactic without PU now, is not in dispute.

I posted in the warrior thread that I was lobbying to have PU stealth reduced, which I was in the PU thread. I said demands for further nerfs should/could probably wait until HoT.

Then the issue is with the game. It had been stated over and over. Burst pre patch was there. Post patch burst still there with or without pu. The issue you are having is learn to play or don’t play the game. Because you are not happy with stealth doesn’t mean nerf a trait that is working.

Sorry denis, I’m done. I just pointed to the issue for you, and all you did was restate something that’s not in dispute (after I explicitly said it wasn’t) and completely beside the point.

If I was concerned about burst, I wouldn’t be focusing on PU stealth, would I? No.

That’s been a pretty consistent refrain here… people reading things into what’s being said, making assumptions about motivations, and then presenting counter arguments that are completely unrelated to the point being made.

Ultimately, whatever. I’ll keep running a PU build to cover for obscenely low skill with a mesmer until I get good enough to do more interesting things, and those that want to keep telling themselves that the “mesmer hate” is all from people who just don’t understand the game can keep living in the bubble.

You can ignore my last sentence also. The problem is you with stealth. Learn to play or don’t play. Nerf a working trait because you don’t like stealth.

And, like burst, I’ve not called for changes to stealth or complained about thieves either. Sorry, it’s not an l2p issue regarding stealth if I’m not calling for changes to stealth outside of the trait.

Choppy.4183:

Simonoly.4352:

I was on a mixture of zerk and knight’s at the time. Fully levelled. I have screenshots of all the scenarios I mentioned because they made me chuckle

Please post the screenshots and the warrior IGN if you have it. The damage calc doesn’t allow for Reckless Dodge to proc that high (even criting with 25 might and 25 vulnerability), so it may be a bug.

I got one of my values mixed up with a meteor proc. It was actually just under 7K Reckless Dodge. It was quite the surprise. I had a good laugh about it.

So now there is proof. Warrior must be nerfed if 7k damage can be done by dodge rolling. Your issue with longer stealth time pales in comparison to dodge rolling your way to victory.

Simonoly.4352:

I got one of my values mixed up with a meteor proc. It was actually just under 7K Reckless Dodge. It was quite the surprise. I had a good laugh about it.

Do you know if there were likely any additional status effects on you at the time?

I might write him in game or post your pic in the warrior forum (if it’s ok with you) because I’ll get maybe a 4.2k crit in full zerk, with a few damage modifiers, and about 10 might against a glass opponent.

Something’s not adding up with that damage. And, yes, it’s way too high and absolutely should be addressed unless it was a pretty unique set of circumstances.

denis.9487:

So now there is proof. Warrior must be nerfed if 7k damage can be done by dodge rolling. Your issue with longer stealth time pales in comparison to dodge rolling your way to victory.

It still doesn’t remove the problem stealth represent in the game nor address the risk vs reward issues.

Choppy.4183:

Simonoly.4352:

I got one of my values mixed up with a meteor proc. It was actually just under 7K Reckless Dodge. It was quite the surprise. I had a good laugh about it.

Do you know if there were likely any additional status effects on you at the time?

I might write him in game or post your pic in the warrior forum (if it’s ok with you) because I’ll get maybe a 4.2k crit in full zerk, with a few damage modifiers, and about 10 might against a glass opponent.

Something’s not adding up with that damage. And, yes, it’s way too high and absolutely should be addressed unless it was a pretty unique set of circumstances.

Yeah go ahead. It was pretty funny, I’m sure people will find it entertaining. I didn’t have any vulnerability on me at the time as I had just entered the fight. The Warrior had vamp aura but that was listed as separate damage as you can see. Can’t remember any other buffs the Warrior may have had.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

denis.9487:

So now there is proof. Warrior must be nerfed if 7k damage can be done by dodge rolling. Your issue with longer stealth time pales in comparison to dodge rolling your way to victory.

It still doesn’t remove the problem stealth represent in the game nor address the risk vs reward issues.

Your right but that is not the Mesmer problem. You are not happy with game mechanics. If upset at game mechanics why nerf Mesmer?

The issue is too many people see stealth as some sort of god mode, so while stealth is at least usable, too many people will never be satisfied with the risk vs reward because they’ll still think stealth makes you instantly unkillable.

Stealth is a powerful mechanic, which is why it has inherent drawback regarding Conquest and doesn’t provide protection against AoEs in WvW. Its also probably why it is only reliably accessed in combat by classes centered around avoiding damage altogether as opposed to tanking hits or simply outhealing them.

Simonoly.4352:

Choppy.4183:

Simonoly.4352:

I was on a mixture of zerk and knight’s at the time. Fully levelled. I have screenshots of all the scenarios I mentioned because they made me chuckle

Please post the screenshots and the warrior IGN if you have it. The damage calc doesn’t allow for Reckless Dodge to proc that high (even criting with 25 might and 25 vulnerability), so it may be a bug.

I got one of my values mixed up with a meteor proc. It was actually just under 7K Reckless Dodge. It was quite the surprise. I had a good laugh about it.

Hmm…

Reckless dodge scales off roughly 1/3rd of the Warrior’s Power. Assuming full might stacks on the Warrior, which adds +750 power or translated an additional 250 damage on Reckless dodge’s base…

I think you managed to get hit with a Reckless Dodge by a Warrior with:

- Berserker’s Power adding 20% damage
- 25 stacks of might
- Potentially running Arms Tree so Bloodlust GM Minor grants 5% damage to bleeding foes (if you were bleeding).

I don’t think Vuln is needed to reach the 7k Reckless Dodge, but its bugging me that the toughness from your Knight’s didn’t do much at all.

TBF, everyone is doing crazy amounts of damage and Toughness never saw any sort of change, that screenshot is a bit crazy though.

Also, that 4.5k Hammer Swing auto-attack is really interesting too…

“Why do people hate mesmers?”

They don’t! Everyone loves Mesmers. They might believe to hate us, but that is only an illusion

TyPin.9860:

“Why do people hate mesmers?”

They don’t! Everyone loves Mesmers. They might believe to hate us, but that is only an illusion

Hahaha I wish! Seems like everyone has it out for some god like Mesmer build and wants the whole class nerfed. Ask to see what build they’re talking about they just list things that you could only have if you traited into every line.

Necrotize.2974:

The issue is too many people see stealth as some sort of god mode, so while stealth is at least usable, too many people will never be satisfied with the risk vs reward because they’ll still think stealth makes you instantly unkillable.

Stealth is a powerful mechanic, which is why it has inherent drawback regarding Conquest and doesn’t provide protection against AoEs in WvW. Its also probably why it is only reliably accessed in combat by classes centered around avoiding damage altogether as opposed to tanking hits or simply outhealing them.

Stealth is ok, PU + auto Aegis / protection proc + way too long stealth time is not.

Aomine.5012:

Necrotize.2974:

The issue is too many people see stealth as some sort of god mode, so while stealth is at least usable, too many people will never be satisfied with the risk vs reward because they’ll still think stealth makes you instantly unkillable.

Stealth is a powerful mechanic, which is why it has inherent drawback regarding Conquest and doesn’t provide protection against AoEs in WvW. Its also probably why it is only reliably accessed in combat by classes centered around avoiding damage altogether as opposed to tanking hits or simply outhealing them.

Stealth is ok, PU + auto Aegis / protection proc + way too long stealth time is not.

I honestly get more and better Aegis from Chaos storm. Keep in mind they purposefully nerfed PU a while ago to include swiftness and might. Regen was already iffy, but since it was only a 1/3 chance of getting a meh boon, it was ok. With the current iteration, its not uncommon for me to get 3 seconds of swiftness which is gone by the time I leave stealth and come out with a random 2 stacks of might that are about to expire. The defensive boons all last 3 seconds, so that means getting them in the first 3 seconds usually means they’re gonna just fall off if you’re sitting in stealth the whole time.

Sure the duration is long, but the boons aren’t always useful and the ones you want often expire before the stealth is even over. But randomness is as randomness does, and mesmers sure do love their randomness(I do too, but don’t tell Chaos Storm, it might decide to give me 15 seconds of swiftness).