Guild Wars 2

Tim.6450:

The cast times are just overkill, reducing every shout’s cast time but the elite between 1/4 and 1/2 sec would make them a lot more desirable. The elite shout should be at 1 sec tops.

Shouts should be instant

GoogleBrandon.5073:

War Mourner.5168:

The problem with the elite is that the cast time is rediculous.

I mean seriously, look at moa morph. It’s an elite skill that leaves one person pretty helpless for however long it last.
It has a 1sec cast time that is very distinctive. It gets avoid a lot.

Ours is double the cast time, we literally shout loudly to let every know it’s happening.
Even if we don’t get CC’d or blinded, or the enemy uses an evade or block, it’s a cakewalk to dodge a skill with such a long wind up.

I say “why wouldnt I use lich?” Because Lich is extremely straight forward.
For the next 20s, you press 1, can kill everything that moves, unless you get moa’d or they have projectile reflect.

If you don’t have one of the above 2 things, you cant avoid the damage of lich (other then running away).
The shout elite is a single AOE that is extremely manageable. I’d honestly put it on par with people’s opinion of 100 blades pre-release.

You say this, but in all honesty – how many times does for instance a Warbanner get succesfully interrupted? Even in Solo-play, not even a third of the community has a clue how to deal with it – added with either the CC from Fear Me, or just a regular Stability, suddenly the person you spent so much time on getting downed is up and running

I get you, the cast time is long for it’s effect, and I would not say no to a decrease of it – but the effect is literally huge…
Mechanically, if you are somewhat capable of using the thinkerbox, shutting down a Lich is easy as cake… The play for it is so straightforward, it creates no oppertunity like Chilled to the Bone does. Will you be able to cast it if you randomly start charging it within a teamfight? Probably not, Warbanners get interrupted the same way – but with some minor coordination (stability is somewhat more accesible now), you can easily pull of something this huge

Sometimes you need to look at it from the perspective of Teamplay – and I tell you, this elite screams “Teamplay” way more than any other elite that the Necromancer profession currently has… Lich has to be played around with, Plague is potent, but makes you very much a sitting duck aside from plague ressing – and this one is an opener, an oppertunity for the whole team to strike down, which leads to interesting play rather than “Heal the Lich while he spams 1”

Again, Cooldown Reduction? Fine by me, but the elite, in my very humble opinion, is really interesting, and really underappreciated

What a terrible, utterly terrible, comparison. Warbanner needs an interrupt to stop it. Often people dont have one and a good warrior can start the cast and line of sight. All you need to do in order to avoid huge cast time shouts is to dodge or block or evade. Things every class have TONS OF. Interrupts are much harder to come by. The comparison used = terrible

Hey, I totally main a Mesmer; but I wanted to just drop by to give a couple quick thoughts! I personally like the idea of shouts with cast time. It seems more sinister to hear a necromancer eliciting a blood-chilling incantation devoid of all hope of escape than a quick, small peep. That being said, those shouts… They have cast times, sure. But gee, are those shouts not potent enough.

I feel that their cooldowns really are too long. Seriously, they have cast times. And like no stab. Everyone who plays mesmer knows interrupting a necro is their favorite passtime.

Additionally, I’m totally for shouts doing damage. But really, that damage just isn’t enough! I think having shouts that inflict damage as well as debilitating effects is pretty cool, so actually doing a quite noticeable bit of damage would fit.

Also way dependent on multiple targets.

So idk. I like the idea behind their shouts, but I just don’t see them being worth taking right now…

Okay looking direct at the Shouts & there effects. Of note these all cause damage & as of yet we don’t know the damge coefficient and this damage needs to be included in the analysis.

Your soul is mine! – Dmg + Average Heal + Life Force at 20 to 13sec. It can be used to generate life force out of combat and is one of the lowest cooldown heals necro’s have. We also don’t know Healing & Life Force coefficient yet. At this time with knowing what we know I find this quite strong and a great another option other then Consume Conditions.

You are all weaklings! – Dmg + Weakness + Self Might + Stun Break at 25 to 16.25sec. What is not to like here. Foes cause less damage & have less endurance, less dodge. Good to Great self might application and one if not the shortest cooldown Stun break in the game.

Nothing can save you! – Dmg + Self Unblockable +Vulnerability Boon Conversion at 35 to 22.75sec. Boons & blocks counter play all rolled into one skill. Add in other elements of Reaper’s gameplay and that combo you wanted to get off is hit through most defences as their going to have to use a dodge or invulnerability to avoid.

Suffer! – Dmg + Condition transfer + Chill at 40 to 26sec. Not just condition removal but condition transfer a core favour of necros meaning as foes your conditions could be thrown right back in your face. Add chill which plays so much into Reaper gameplay and this is another great skill.

Rise! – Dmg + Summon at 40 to 26sec. This one will all depend on the summon & summon trait syncs. Loving the idea of Death Nova with the current design. This can also again generate Life Force through the deaths of the summons but so much of this skill depends on the summon & trait interaction. Favour wise I really like it, as nothing feels more like a necromancer for me then calling out and watching the dead “Rise” up at my feet. I can see this being use in minion builds.

Chilled to the bone! – Large Dmg + Long Chill + Resistance + Stun at 120 to 78sec. The dmg & Stun can be compared to Old Earthshaker which was on a 10sec cooldown limited by aderaline which they reduced the dmg by a large amount. But 10sec for dmg & 2 sec stun and this is dmg & stun at 120sec, what the? But we have the addition of chill & resistance (which could become stability) but is this enough for such a massive cooldown increase. The question is cooldown and there’s two sides.

• 1 Target – At 120 to 111.6sec is this time acceptable for the effects. At the moment it feels very lacking to many.
• 5 Targets – At 120 to 78sec is this time acceptable for the effects. Now looking at 78sec this is starting to seem very strong.

One factor I’ve thought about is modifying the stun duration depending on target number. So at 1 target they get a 4sec stun but 5 targets only get 2sec.

Shout, shout, let it all out, these are the things I can do without
Come on, I’m talking to you, come on ,

sorry . i was listening to tears for fears .

thank you thank you , i will be here all week !

For me these shouts are not just about the effects they cause but also the damage. If these are instant what counter play is there. I’m never a fan of instant effects but can understand why some would be include due to latency issues. But I would only place these on defensive skills only and only a small number at that & have all offensive skills with cast times. Now I’m not talk all large cast times but that there is one with a chance how ever small to interrupt.

Example: Even with a cast time of 1/8 second how many players which internet latencies can respond.

To add this counter play I would love all Shouts to get this small cast time. It add skilled play to shouts. They’re already a fire and forget so long as your in range, and being an instant cast skill you only have reactive options for counter play not pre-emptive. As such this limits how powerful Shouts can be, add a cast time and power level can be increased.

If one or two profession has such a large advantage due to cast times I would look at these professions. You want this this casting & interrupting game play as it makes for a more engaging & immersing fight but not to the extend were one side can cause total lockdowns or massive lost of character control.

Even with small cast times Shouts are still going to be one of the easier skill sets to use but if added one of the harder sets to interrupt.

Bezagron.7352:

For me these shouts are not just about the effects they cause but also the damage. If these are instant what counter play is there. I’m never a fan of instant effects but can understand why some would be include due to latency issues. But I would only place these on defensive skills only and only a small number at that & have all offensive skills with cast times. Now I’m not talk all large cast times but that there is one with a chance how ever small to interrupt.

Example: Even with a cast time of 1/8 second how many players which internet latencies can respond.

To add this counter play I would love all Shouts to get this small cast time. It add skilled play to shouts. They’re already a fire and forget so long as your in range, and being an instant cast skill you only have reactive options for counter play not pre-emptive. As such this limits how powerful Shouts can be, add a cast time and power level can be increased.

If one or two profession has such a large advantage due to cast times I would look at these professions. You want this this casting & interrupting game play as it makes for a more engaging & immersing fight but not to the extend were one side can cause total lockdowns or massive lost of character control.

Even with small cast times Shouts are still going to be one of the easier skill sets to use but if added one of the harder sets to interrupt.

the dmg is about equivalent to 1/3rd-1/2 your autoattack dmg. in that same time period you would have done 3-4 times that dmg via auto attack.

the dmg is only good for proc-ing on hit effects, nothing else, which might be cool, till you realize, you probably would have been better off with the passive effects from signets, or using wells than any of these shouts.

i dont see the power here, maybe im missing something, combination of the cast time, the recast times, and weak effects makes most of these shouts lackluster

Ppl are taking Augury of death into account as if it was baseline, Chill nova will be the top dog in pve, and relentless pursuit will be staple in pvp as it is. A trait to bandaid bad shouts is not worth it.

I haven’t tested the skills at all and I trust them to know what they are doing on balance, but having an activation time that keeps you from attacking makes no sense on shouts. “I’m gonna attack you in a sec’, but hang on while I yell at you first”. You should be able to attack while shouting, but not shout (a second shout) while shouting.

I don’t know if it would work in this game, but I would love to see a secondary activation slot, so you could attack with an activation time while shouting with an activation time.

This would also open up more skills with activation times to be used at once in interesting ways. The other shouts could use the same system as well as several other new and old skills. Whenever you are hit by an interrupt while attacking and shouting, both skills would be interrupted.

Again, not sure about changing coding for this system but I like the idea.

Edit: Forgot to say, this would be cool that some skills would have audio only tells instead of visual ones.

With 5 enemies hit, the shouts are actually quite short CD.

Heal will basically be for (solo) PvE and WvW only. In front line you will have a very good heal on a 13s cooldown with that one trait. That’s pretty kitten good. We just need our shout elite to grant us stability.

Perhaps the heal shout should grant us resistance instead of the elite.

phys.7689:

the dmg is about equivalent to 1/3rd-1/2 your autoattack dmg. in that same time period you would have done 3-4 times that dmg via auto attack.

the dmg is only good for proc-ing on hit effects, nothing else, which might be cool, till you realize, you probably would have been better off with the passive effects from signets, or using wells than any of these shouts.

i dont see the power here, maybe im missing something, combination of the cast time, the recast times, and weak effects makes most of these shouts lackluster

For me this is were balance comes in. Many times in all the streams Arenanet states Numbers are not Finalised. As such I try not to look to hard at exact values but the range there looking at.

As you pointed out looking at current values dmg looks a little lacking but it also a large part of Necromancer Shouts. I also mentioned we don’t know the dmg coefficient which can play a large part of the skills overall effect damage wise. It was just one part a saw most not mentioning when they were looking at these Shouts, which is large different for Necromancer Shouts to existing.

They Also Cause Damage

Vizardlorde.8243:

Ppl are taking Augury of death into account as if it was baseline, Chill nova will be the top dog in pve, and relentless pursuit will be staple in pvp as it is. A trait to bandaid bad shouts is not worth it.

And I think this a good point to point out.

As a trait Augury of Death feels very lacking when compared to other skill category trait’s.

Augury of Death – Your shouts recharge faster for each foe they hit. 7% reduced cooldown per foe. At 1 foe very lacking, at 5 foes great cooldown reduction.

And it’s here as a trait I went “What The?” I thought this was a legacy of the old trait system that they had changed going into specializations. Look at all the other skill category traits now and they have addition effects other then just reducing cooldowns. So why is Augury of Death only a cooldown reduction. Like you said Vizardlorde it doesn’t compare to Chilling Nova & Relentless Pursuit as it is now.

Yea Cooldown reduction how fun, I get to use these skills a little bit more often but what now. I would like to see Augury of Death get an addition effect;

• Maybe combine if with Reaper’s Onslaught and create a new trait in it’s place – +15% Attack Speed in Reaper’s Shroud & 7% Shout cooldown per foe hit.
• Or Shouts now generate Life Force on use, +3% Life Force.
• Or go for some supportive Necromanic element, Shouts now grant Vampric Aura to allies (5) in range.

Hi, excuse my ignorance but is shouts damage can scale?

Hi Vortok I would assume as Necromancer Shouts have a damage component like other utilities the damage on Shouts would scale with Power and be able to Crit.

Shiki.7148:

Cogbyrn.7283:

I would say 12 stacks of might for 4 seconds is supplementary. There are plenty of other traits that give Might on attacking chilled targets, Might on using Shroud #1, etc. Plus, the shout also applies Weakness for 6 seconds, and breaks stun. Does BiP do those things?

And calling certain builds “dead” in the meta at this point is just blinding yourself to potentialities for no reason. Maybe they’ll find a place, maybe they won’t. If they do, it’s easier to remember the potential usefulness of Shouts if you don’t just completely rule them out from the get-go.

Also, @Drawing Guy, are you ignoring the fact that it actually sounds like they’re balancing them around hitting 3 targets, not 5? And for WvW, they could work very, very well in all kinds of different types of fights. Disorganized skirmishes happen all the time in WvW, it isn’t just roaming 1v1s (which is actually more often 2v1s), or GvGs with coordinated comps and calls. Additionally, I often stay near the rear of the retreating party because I have all kinds of slowing/distracting utility that saves more people from dying, instead of just trying to not die myself.

And little access to stability? You must not have seen Reaper Shroud’s #3.

Well what I’ve seen is them balancing it for 5 players hit. Because otherwise the casttimes and the Elite cooldown would be far lower. They factor in that you get a potential 35% CDR, so you have the elite on a 78 CD. While actually you will most likely have 14-21 CDR , so 103-95 seconds cd. Which is too high for a shout with a 2 second stun that can be broken and has a 2 second casttime meaning it will get interrupted more often than not. If it was like current deepfreeze – no stunbreaks possible – or gave stability at the beginning of the cast and then one extra stack per person hit after the shout I’d say it could be a fair CD. But like this? Nope. Make it 90 seconds base and 1.5 cast… Even 1 s cast would be fair if telegraphed enough. Which it should be with the Reaper screaming at you.

Or, keep the current times except maybe elite CD, but make all shouts and the trait have what they have now when hitting 3 foes baseline . So get at least 3 jaggeds, at least x might etc. And then just scale them with hitting 4 and 5. Because most of the shouts are decent against 3 people, so at least have them decent, not terribad against 1 person.

No I saw your point Shiki, I just wonder how strong they’ll be when coupled with other scenarios that the Reaper will generate in melee combat. It seems they’re pushing for it to be a multi opponent class. We’ll see in beta testing