Do you necro feel what “FEAR” is ? XD
It’s so funny to see half necro beiing afraid of something even more when there is no reason XD
So thank you to this half-unbrained population of necro for this topic, very funny for elementalist ^^
And gl gl to others nerco wich probably play this class because they love it and not because its currently OP, you deserve it!
(ele posting if you did’nt understand :p)
So, when necros only method of stopping a combo is a Fear that can’t affect you, how exactly is that balanced?
This trait is just badly designed. It counters condition necros hard, but it ONLY counters condition necros.
I laughed about this as well. I enjoy all the eles that come in here to gloat, but if you are going to suggest a counter to your skill, realize before you do if it will actually work. In DIAMOND SKIN mode you can’t be feared, you can still regen, heal, dodge, run away, do all the normal things an ele does to stay alive, except that you need to fear nothing from condi engineers and necros (or epidemic).
I think a better way to do this would have been a reflect. Above 80% you mirror back conditions, but take say 50% reduced duration on conditions applied to you. I can still pressure you, but you reflect back so I am pressuring myself at the same time. That is a hard counter still, but not a complete shutdown. Put it at 20 earth then too.
GUYS… What if… We had a grandmaster trait.. that GAVE US STABILITY WHILE ABOVE 90% HP!?!?!?!?
no no that would be insanity. XD
kitten this game
I am serious.
What about a grandmaster trait that gave us damage immunity while death shroud was above 90%. Either conditions or natural death shroud degen or us using our own skills would knock us below 90%. If there is a hard counter to conditions, why can’t there be a hard counter to damage?
So, when necros only method of stopping a combo is a Fear that can’t affect you, how exactly is that balanced?
only… as if you cant dodge or sponge the hits with DS;
The combos that kills us from 100-0 are CC combos, Sponging with DS will not help. Fear is the only defense, other than two dodges (no vigor on the class).
Also, the necromancer has the worst regen, pressure heals in the game and our heals are on long cooldown. This means that unlike many other classes such as those classes that can use scholar runes, this class is usually far below 100% Heath at the start of fights. The only defenses are proactive conditions that can be cleared.
So, when necros only method of stopping a combo is a Fear that can’t affect you, how exactly is that balanced?
only… as if you cant dodge or sponge the hits with DS;
The combos that kills us from 100-0 are CC combos, Sponging with DS will not help. Fear is the only defense, other than two dodges (no vigor on the class).
Also, the necromancer has the worst regen, pressure heals in the game and our heals are on long cooldown. This means that unlike many other classes such as those classes that can use scholar runes, this class is usually far below 100% Heath at the start of fights. The only defenses are proactive conditions that can be cleared.
except we’re talking about ele here? which has… 2 hard CCs(? that i can think of in an x/d build… and the same on an x/f build) hardly a CC kill combo (you can sponge arcane s/x bursts from with DS if you get caught by CC easily; dagger burst is far less potent)
… can get stability for 3s every 6s if you want it >.>
Gtfo out 3 seconds?!!? no way! thats like… 3 whole seconds!!! in a trait line that is lame as hell! YES sir! i will do that! thanks >.>
thats 50% stability uptime (when combined with near to death), you asked for stability grandmaster; we already have one… dont be an idiot
well im not an idiot. That’s 50% uptime with no added stun-break so ur not getting a good a deal as 100% uptime stability (requiring no stun-break in that case). I’m obviously making a very simple comparison and not qqing for stability.
If I could get 100% stability for as long as i had above 90% health it would be a far more useful GM trait, simply put. But we are not only not suppose to have that great of stability, the little stability we gain lacks stun-breaks and is a gm trait.
And if you used the trait in actual play you would see that it is not as simply as “50% uptime” like you say. It is on paper but in practice you soon realize you’re not getting the same deal.
what i find insanely hilarious about the “balance” in this game is that every class has some form of counter to the necro. Even a simple moa can throw you out of your elite or DS.
The most pivotal point I could relay is that our professions style of play is aoe (only accessible through our precious utilities unlike other classes who have aoe on their basic attacks) but every other class has ez access to stability making that aspect of our profession incredibly difficult to pull-off. Even if you succeed in a, say, dagger 3, your opponent will generally have plenty of stun-breaks to leave your wells or whatever.
On the flip side, we have absolutely little to no defense from any class’ style of play. We can throw poison on regen-happy rangers but they can remove said poison. We can cripple a theif as much as we want but they can just go invis or even dodge to cleanse said cripple. We can throw as much crap at a warrior as we want but they have zerker stance. we can do the same to a guardian but they just flip them to boons. Ele’s will soon have plenty of defense. Engi’s are just god mode 4ever. And mesmers are a cross between a thief and an ele, cleansing happily, stun-breaking with ease and going invis/invuln when they need to.
At the same time their damage output (in ACTUAL play) is far more potent than ours. It’s nice to say "In magic dream land where everyone does things the way you picture it in your mind and how the numbers look on paper, the necro’s are just fine and have some of the best damage output in the game ladada). But it’s just the opposite.
Important notes: A) Diamond skin aint gonna change anything.
B) DS isnt a absorb/block/Invul and dodges are kinda rare, you only got 2 without vigor to regen em for you fast enough, every combo in game can outlock even 2 dodges (since most are designed for 3+
C) Its 3 seconds pre 7 seconds, the 0 counts too if you dont know, also if you ds hop for that, you are kitten, should feel kitten and are playing necro very very badly. its under 10% uptime in any realistic scenario.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
So, when necros *only* method of stopping a combo is a Fear that can’t affect you, how exactly is that balanced?
only... as if you cant dodge or sponge the hits with DS;
The combos that kills us from 100-0 are CC combos, Sponging with DS will not help. Fear is the only defense, other than two dodges (no vigor on the class).
Also, the necromancer has the worst regen, pressure heals in the game and our heals are on long cooldown. This means that unlike many other classes such as those classes that can use scholar runes, this class is usually far below 100% Heath at the start of fights. The only defenses are proactive conditions that can be cleared.
except we’re talking about ele here? which has... 2 hard CCs(? that i can think of in an x/d build... and the same on an x/f build) hardly a CC kill combo (you can sponge arcane s/x bursts from with DS if you get caught by CC easily; dagger burst is far less potent)
... can get stability for 3s every 6s if you want it >.>
Gtfo out 3 seconds?!!? no way! thats like... 3 whole seconds!!! in a trait line that is lame as hell! YES sir! i will do that! thanks >.>
thats 50% stability uptime (when combined with near to death), you asked for stability grandmaster; we already have one... dont be an idiot
well im not an idiot. That’s 50% uptime with no added stun-break so ur not getting a good a deal as 100% uptime stability (requiring no stun-break in that case). I’m obviously making a very simple comparison and not qqing for stability.
If I could get 100% stability for as long as i had above 90% health it would be a far more useful GM trait, simply put. But we are not only not suppose to have that great of stability, the little stability we gain lacks stun-breaks and is a gm trait.
And if you used the trait in actual play you would see that it is not as simply as "50% uptime" like you say. It is on paper but in practice you soon realize you’re not getting the same deal.
its potentially 50% uptime if needed (far more than at 90%+ health would be)... and you use it pre-emptively
stability whilst over 90% is a lot less useful (imo) because;
- no one opens with CC (most decent players i encounter save it for interrupts or ensuring a win)... and chances of you (especially a necro) being at 90%+ when they do is extremely low
- doesnt protect your heal from being interrupted (unless... you heal at 90%+ health... but thats a pretty bad overheal)
(and i use it a lot in wvw -though ive been using deathly perception more recently... just because +70% crit chance when entering deathshroud makes locust swarm/wells hit very hard - i use it before running through a gate -so no CC from wards/static fields-, when i need to get off a heal uninterrupted or when obvious CC is coming my way -hammer warrs jumping for earthshaker, x/d eles switching to air, x/f eles switching to water etc)
Important notes: A) Diamond skin aint gonna change anything.
B) DS isnt a absorb/block/Invul and dodges are kinda rare, you only got 2 without vigor to regen em for you fast enough, every combo in game can outlock even 2 dodges (since most are designed for 3+
C) Its 3 seconds pre 7 seconds, the 0 counts too if you dont know, also if you ds hop for that, you are kitten, should feel kitten and are playing necro very very badly. its under 10% uptime in any realistic scenario.
B. DS doubles as a second health bar (easily refillable in certain builds)... so it does absorb attacks
C. its 6 seconds (see attatched screenshot - the cooldown also shows 6 seconds; not 6.something-7; straight out of DS)
So, when necros *only* method of stopping a combo is a Fear that can’t affect you, how exactly is that balanced?
only... as if you cant dodge or sponge the hits with DS?
Doesn’t stop the combo at all, just mitigates a portion of it. Fear actually stops it and gives us an opportunity to respond.
dodging completely mitigates it... DS is just a fallback incase you’re out of dodges or reacted slowly (and this is only against eles... whilst at 90%+ health... you could just get them below that thresh-hold and its back to doom defense)
not sure why you’re so worries about eles when mesmers are going to be the new warriors soon enough. so better be ready for em!
eles wont have both their usual condi removal and diamond skin all in one package. they will have to forgo something for it and almost all eles take EA/elemental attunement so they wont be traited so deep into water magic. besides if you have a thief/warrior/mesmer partners for wvw roaming they will have fun making that ele’s skin a running joke. this will only be a problem when an ele is at the back of their zerg dishing their AoEs while immune to AoE conditions.
Get In The Van Yo[PR] -Play on Far Shiverpeaks/Gunner’s Hold/Vabbi
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
. eles wont have both their usual condi removal and diamond skin all in one package.
The Diamond Skin trait might actually be a nice fit in a Fresh Air Burst scenario. With the change to Arcana and attunement CD a S/D build with Rock Solid and Ether Renewal will be able to stay clean of conditions and probably heal enough to be another threat to Necros.
I don’t think it will be over the top, but I tend to believe that immunity counters like this are inherently bad even if they aren’t OP. I prefer a game with more depth than rock-paper-scissors.
Inept again shows he is inept by not knowing how the cooldown system works since skill cooldown indicators totally start at the number shown on the cooldown (which would mean each cd is +1) and thinks that 10 -30% is 6…
Also even a soldier necros hp from DS (if its 100% which it wont be, ever) is still around 21k, unlike a blocks potential of infinity, lets not mention also the fact that evade skills blocks and invuls make you immune to all cc and secondary effects of skills and the weakness of combat mobility.
Seriously dont post if you cannot provide to the conversation (same reason why i dont go posting kitten on mesmer/ranger/thief/ele forums, im plain not good enough at the nuances of said professions to do it, just how for example a biologist doesnt go kittening around with physics).
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Inept again shows he is inept by not knowing how the cooldown system works since skill cooldown indicators totally start at the number shown on the cooldown (which would mean each cd is +1) and thinks that 10 -30% is 6…
so… you just ignored those two screenshots? why dont you go have a look in game then come back? (ill re-upload the one you should look at)
Also even a soldier necros hp from DS (if its 100% which it wont be, ever) is still around 21k, unlike a blocks potential of infinity, lets not mention also the fact that evade skills blocks and invuls make you immune to all cc and secondary effects of skills and the weakness of combat mobility.
… where did i say DS was as good as a block or invuln? im saying you can sponge the hits with ease (and build up LF with ease) im struggling to think of a burst that hits 21k (and then the necros base health pool as well)
rofl
When i joined gw2 recently, I figured this whole ‘meta’ talk was just another word for ‘broken OP kitten hardcounter rollercoaster’, a.k.a. the opposite of reasonable balancing. Turns out I was right.
10 – 30% =?
Also just go in game and test it out. DS takes 7 seconds to be back up (aka there are 4 seconds of the cooldown left if you go 30 into SR with FitG and NtD.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
10 – 30% =?
Also just go in game and test it out. DS takes 7 seconds to be back up (aka there are 4 seconds of the cooldown left if you go 30 into SR with FitG and NtD.
hah proves how inaccurate my counting seconds is (that or i just counted along with the cooldown numbers sub consciously), just went and used http://www.online-stopwatch.com/countdown-timer/ … mb (i guess i shouldnt trust tooltips even after all the changes)… but still barely makes a difference (still a potential 42.87%-ish uptime)
If anyone loses to an ele due to this trait, you were going to lose anyway. It really shouldn’t be on anyone’s radar.
I wouldn’t say that. A dire or rabid necro direct damage is exceedingly low. If you have ever tried to kill an engy with the sister trait who is under 25 percent with no current conditions on you would understand. We lose access to three interrupts as well in that range.
I don’t mind though. It encourages hybrid builds which is better than the current state of affairs. I just wish our hybrid builds had better traits and options
wow whoa whoa whoa…. Engi has inherently 5k more health than us, and more armor too. not to mention the straight on void comparison of 25% = 10%. Not to mention also how theyre applied in the battle. One is in very beginning, when ele’s health is only high, the other when the engis health has 1/4 left (which is a LOT compared to 1/10)
If anyone loses to an ele due to this trait, you were going to lose anyway. It really shouldn’t be on anyone’s radar.
I wouldn’t say that. A dire or rabid necro direct damage is exceedingly low. If you have ever tried to kill an engy with the sister trait who is under 25 percent with no current conditions on you would understand. We lose access to three interrupts as well in that range.
I don’t mind though. It encourages hybrid builds which is better than the current state of affairs. I just wish our hybrid builds had better traits and options
wow whoa whoa whoa…. Engi has inherently 5k more health than us, and more armor too. not to mention the straight on void comparison of 25% = 10%. Not to mention also how theyre applied in the battle. One is in very beginning, when ele’s health is only high, the other when the engis health has 1/4 left (which is a LOT compared to 1/10)
I think it will end up at 80 to 85 percent, but yes that is less than a range of 25 percent. I don’t disagree with any other comments on the hp differences, but I think engis would argue preventing condis at the get go is better than having them burn you down having been pre applied before your trait kicks in.
It will be pretty useless for the average ele, but down right problematic if built around from a balancing perspective. Such is the way of the hard counter.
Pure immunity is never a healthy design. You would think that any self respecting game developer has played Diablo 2 given it’s probably the benchmark for a successful game.
Perfect immunities are never healthy design.
Condition necro strolls around the map with plague equiped and meets up knight wearing elementalist, with diamond skin and signet of restoration. To win, the elementalist would have to press #1 once and stay in range, which isn’t hard considering he is immune to cripple and chill. That’s not just a heavily favored match up. That’s a zero % chance for an outplay.
Pure immunity is never a healthy design. You would think that any self respecting game developer has played Diablo 2 given it’s probably the benchmark for a successful game.
Perfect immunities are never healthy design.
Condition necro strolls around the map with plague equiped and meets up knight wearing elementalist, with diamond skin and signet of restoration. To win, the elementalist would have to press #1 once and stay in range, which isn’t hard considering he is immune to cripple and chill. That’s not just a heavily favored match up. That’s a zero % chance for an outplay.
Shame on you if you fool me once, shame on me if you fool me twice.
Whoever hasn’t seen the pattern in anet’s balance circus can’t be helped imo. The weirdest thing is; I think it’s down to inability. Blizzard, I give the benefit of the doubt that it’s just money making schemes. With anet, I’m convinced they couldn’t come up with good balance even if they wanted to. This whole ‘meta’ circus is just a euphemism for complete lack of ability to balance.
Immunity is in League of Legends, I think we can consider league of a legends a somewhat successful game, and many immunities in that game are perfectly healthy.
Immunity is in League of Legends, I think we can consider league of a legends a somewhat successful game, and many immunities in that game are perfectly healthy.
But none of those immunities are passive. They all require an activation and have a definite (and short, usually) duration.
This is why I don’t have an issue with Invulnerability skills, Defy Pain, or Berserker’s Stance, but I do have issues with Automated Response System and now Diamond Skin. If they required the use of a skill, or were a short duration proc upon hitting a certain trigger, they would be fine in concept (duration details and what the immunity actually is are required to say if it’s fine in practice).
Permanent immunity when fulfilling condition X is not fine.
Immunity is in League of Legends, I think we can consider league of a legends a somewhat successful game, and many immunities in that game are perfectly healthy.
Even this game has immunities, but not like this. The new diamond skin duration isn’t limited in anyway as long you stay above the threshold. As it happens cond necros and mesmers, which don’t get played that much tho, don’t have any real options to break that threshold. When you account consumable sustain like omnomberry ghosts, that trait will annihilate any condition based spec, not just the necros and the mesmers, whom have non existent direct damage.
It’s equally ridiculous to the polar opposite of the trait. Immune to direct damage when above the threshold. It’s really not hard to stay above the threshold when you kill more than 9/10ths of the enemy’s damage output.
Introducing such a trait at 90%, let alone at 80%, is about same as letting few stray cats loose in the New Zealand. The trait isn’t even complex. It’s quit obvious how you would want to play trait like that.
Condi mes, just use phantasms and zerkers to drop us instantly to 50% hp. If all else fails just stay invisible while your clones do all the work. (typical mes)
Condi necros, just have a golem slap us once or use your wells that deal direct damage hitting like 2k. No ele has more than 20k hp that i know of. At least not one who doesn’t hit like a level 10 ranger.
To a competent player, it’s very easy to bypass diamond skin, especially in a game where group combat is more commonly found than skirmishes.
All the answers you listed are something you would typically only see in a direct damage build, apart from the flesh golem, which you don’t typically see at all plague being the mandatory elite skill even for the power builds.
All the answers you listed are something you would typically only see in a direct damage build, apart from the flesh golem, which you don’t typically see at all plague being the mandatory elite skill even for the power builds.
Oh no, you may have to adapt your build slightly? The horror!
Haven’t most Necros in spvp been saying that the only reason we were so OP was because no one changed their spec to deal with conditions? And now taking one different utility to deal with what will surely be a rare and specific build is too much to consider?
All the answers you listed are something you would typically only see in a direct damage build, apart from the flesh golem, which you don’t typically see at all plague being the mandatory elite skill even for the power builds.
Oh no, you may have to adapt your build slightly? The horror!
Haven’t most Necros in spvp been saying that the only reason we were so OP was because no one changed their spec to deal with conditions? And now taking one different utility to deal with what will surely be a rare and specific build is too much to consider?
Again, life blast. Problem solved.
Condition cleansing is a soft counter to condition builds and there, it was a case of “you always had the tools to counter the tools we always had, you just chose not to use them” In the case of condition clears, the conditions still did SOMETHING before getting removed. Diamond Skin is a new tool to specifically hard-counter condition necros (as they have very little direct damage).
In the case of immunity, it’s “Nice try. I think I’ll auto-attack you because you can’t do jack to me.” Elementalists may not take much to drop below 90% health, but given the sheer amount of sustain they have, keeping them there will be extremely difficult when you, at most, get 3 bleeds on them before they heal back up (and probably cleansed the bleeds in the process).
Health pool on an ele maxes out slightly over 24000. To get to that, an ele would have to be 30 in water with sentinel’s gear. A x/x/30/30/x ele isn’t going to kill you anytime soon. More realistic ele hp is 18000, maybe around 20,000 in wvw with the fortitude buffs. A very slight build modification to add some power to get the direct damage above 1,800-2000 in a short burst isn’t going to hurt. Going pure condi damage has always seemed like a bad idea b/c of cleanses en masse when facing organized opponents.
Asuran -Engineer, Elementalist, Necromancer, Mesmer, and underlevel Ranger
All the answers you listed are something you would typically only see in a direct damage build, apart from the flesh golem, which you don’t typically see at all plague being the mandatory elite skill even for the power builds.
Oh no, you may have to adapt your build slightly? The horror!
Haven’t most Necros in spvp been saying that the only reason we were so OP was because no one changed their spec to deal with conditions? And now taking one different utility to deal with what will surely be a rare and specific build is too much to consider?
Again, life blast. Problem solved.
Condition cleansing is a soft counter to condition builds and there, it was a case of “you always had the tools to counter the tools we always had, you just chose not to use them” In the case of condition clears, the conditions still did SOMETHING before getting removed. Diamond Skin is a new tool to specifically hard-counter condition necros (as they have very little direct damage).
In the case of immunity, it’s “Nice try. I think I’ll auto-attack you because you can’t do jack to me.” Elementalists may not take much to drop below 90% health, but given the sheer amount of sustain they have, keeping them there will be extremely difficult when you, at most, get 3 bleeds on them before they heal back up (and probably cleansed the bleeds in the process).
What sustain do eles have nowadays? It’s been a Long time since the feared d/d ele. Yes, they can, if they completely waste cooldowns, stay above 90% for a little while. Big deal, they’ll melt quicker without their heals and immunities. This is a class that needs help and I doubt most of them take this trait anyway.
Signet of Restoration would be the obvious companion as it would allow everything else the ele does help in keeping them above the threshold. That does, however, get significant boost from Written in Stone, which can’t be taken alongside Diamond Skin (thankfully). Alternatively, Aether Renewal clears the conditions from them as well as gets them back above the threshold.
Most of the rest of their sustain is from traits. Most eles take points in Water Magic, which means they have health regen while attuned, and Healing Ripple for a burst of healing on-attunement (plus condition cleanse from Cleansing Wave) . Balancing between Earth, Fire, and Water attunements allows for good healing, condition clear, and survival skills. The X/X/30/30/X bunker build that I am certain we will see will be nigh impossible to take down as a condition necro.
I do recognize that this trait is not anywhere near as strong as Automated Response System on Engineers. The issue is that outright immunity with no duration is just saying “no, that strategy doesn’t work. Period.” Rather than “That strategy isn’t your best move.”
Signet of Restoration would be the obvious companion as it would allow everything else the ele does help in keeping them above the threshold. That does, however, get significant boost from Written in Stone, which can’t be taken alongside Diamond Skin (thankfully). Alternatively, Aether Renewal clears the conditions from them as well as gets them back above the threshold.
Most of the rest of their sustain is from traits. Most eles take points in Water Magic, which means they have health regen while attuned, and Healing Ripple for a burst of healing on-attunement (plus condition cleanse from Cleansing Wave) . Balancing between Earth, Fire, and Water attunements allows for good healing, condition clear, and survival skills. The X/X/30/30/X bunker build that I am certain we will see will be nigh impossible to take down as a condition necro.
I do recognize that this trait is not anywhere near as strong as Automated Response System on Engineers. The issue is that outright immunity with no duration is just saying “no, that strategy doesn’t work. Period.” Rather than “That strategy isn’t your best move.”
I understand. And if it were 80% instead of 90, I would actually be thinking about this as a potential problem if I still ran condi. But 90% is too high to use your heal on, waste cooldowns, etc. it’s not enough health you need to whittle down to get them to a vulnerable state.
everyone keeps saying, oh just use scepter 3, or deathshroud them to below 90%. ok, now our only direct damage skills are on a 10sec cooldown, giving the ele a 10sec window to regen and spike us. oh, eles have such a low health pool obviously it wouldnt be hard. are you idiots aware of how much regen capacity an ele has? i know you do. thats because youre ele mains who want necro to go back to being an autokill class. eles already have the highest condition removal in the game after warrior, now they get flat out immunity, possibly trumping the warrior. this gm trait is kittening kittened.
every condition build is on trouble.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
everyone keeps saying, oh just use scepter 3, or deathshroud them to below 90%. ok, now our only direct damage skills are on a 10sec cooldown, giving the ele a 10sec window to regen and spike us. oh, eles have such a low health pool obviously it wouldnt be hard. are you idiots aware of how much regen capacity an ele has? i know you do. thats because youre ele mains who want necro to go back to being an autokill class. eles already have the highest condition removal in the game after warrior, now they get flat out immunity, possibly trumping the warrior. this gm trait is kittening kittened.
every condition build is on trouble.
Yes, my ele main can’t wait to put 30 points into a questionable tree, blow all my cooldowns to keep my health high enough and just pray that the necro I’m playing is too bad to know how to deal barely noticeable direct damage, all so I can be their direct counter. I’ll do all this when thieves still exist and warriors are still a huge problem.
/sarcasm. I don’t even have an ele.
This is not directed at anyone in particular but I really think this will hardly be a problem, and even then it wil only be a problem for bad players who faceroll their Necros and not for good players who can actually think.
I do recognize that this trait is not anywhere near as strong as Automated Response System on Engineers. The issue is that outright immunity with no duration is just saying “no, that strategy doesn’t work. Period.” Rather than “That strategy isn’t your best move.”
Automated response is by far the weaker trait. You can frontload lethal numbers on the board against it. When the AR kicks in and you played your cards right, you got enough damage to ensure the kill. If you didn’t then the engi can’t heal up if he wants to maintain the immunity which means that the similar direct damage that would allow you to start applying conditions on the elmentalist, kills the engineer.
Diamond skin on the other hand shuts you down cold right from the start. It doesn’t kick in. It’s there from the start and you need to work around it, which you lack the tools for if you went with the condition build.
everyone keeps saying, oh just use scepter 3, or deathshroud them to below 90%. ok, now our only direct damage skills are on a 10sec cooldown, giving the ele a 10sec window to regen and spike us. oh, eles have such a low health pool obviously it wouldnt be hard. are you idiots aware of how much regen capacity an ele has? i know you do. thats because youre ele mains who want necro to go back to being an autokill class. eles already have the highest condition removal in the game after warrior, now they get flat out immunity, possibly trumping the warrior. this gm trait is kittening kittened.
every condition build is on trouble.
While I do think the new ele trait is going to breed at least 1 new nigh-unkillable build that I can come up with right off the top of my head, and possibly more I haven’t thought of yet, I don’t think it’s quite this bad like you’re making it out to be. Yes ele’s could have done with some more reliable condi management. I don’t think this was it, but I agree it was needed. Anytime you introduce pure immunity to something in a game, it’s almost guaranteed to be abused and cause imbalance. It’s not some godawlful gamebreaker though, even I will admit that. It will definitely benefit ele’s in a very good way without being op in wvw though. There’s just waaaay too much conditions in wvw and I can forsee this opening up some good builds for them and I’m happy for them. Time will tell how it fares in pvp though.
But I think the biggest concern over this from a necro perspective isn’t the ele trait alone, it’s the combination of the dev team nerfing our condi damage (and most likely more of that to come in the future as well) without giving us the sustain we were promised on top of these new “condi immunity” traits we’re seeing in the game. This kind of balancing has myself and many of the necro community worried about the future of our class. While things may not be too bad now, the road we’re headed down doesn’t look good.
The trait probably won’t get even used that much. Not because it’s weak, but because the existence of such trait alone is somewhat enough to marginalize condition builds. If condition specs get played, diamond skin bunker eles get played. If such eles are common spec then conditions don’t get played. That’s a relationship of a very specialized predator and it’s prey, which means mutual extinction because no competitive player will risk the chance of absolute dead draw.
It has major implications when it comes to sPvP balance.
I do recognize that this trait is not anywhere near as strong as Automated Response System on Engineers. The issue is that outright immunity with no duration is just saying “no, that strategy doesn’t work. Period.” Rather than “That strategy isn’t your best move.”
Automated response is by far the weaker trait. You can frontload lethal numbers on the board against it. When the AR kicks in and you played your cards right, you got enough damage to ensure the kill. If you didn’t then the engi can’t heal up if he wants to maintain the immunity which means that the similar direct damage that would allow you to start applying conditions on the elmentalist, kills the engineer.
Standard Engineer MO is to save all condition cleanses until they hit 25% and are immune to new conditions, then clearing themselves. From there, just a bit of regen (or the Backpack Regenerator trait) is enough to make them completely unkillable by condition builds. That is why ARS is the stronger trait. Diamond Skin, there is at least something the necro could conceivably do to deactivate it. You can’t heal an enemy engineer to break their condition immunity
Next logical step would be to swap to knights or berserker cavalier and forget conditions.
Hybrid builds in this game are bad due the way stats are allocated. Only overlap the two types of damage have is the critical strike chance. You always maximize your returns by focusing on single type of damage. Not to mention that both staff and the scepter got teribad power coefficients. Power is the last attribute you will ever want if you got those weapons equipped.
Condition cleansing is a soft counter to condition builds and there, it was a case of “you always had the tools to counter the tools we always had, you just chose not to use them”
…
“you always had the tools to counter the tools we always had, you just chose not to use them”
… like… direct damage?
… and something about condis making toughness worthless…
Condition cleansing is a soft counter to condition builds and there, it was a case of “you always had the tools to counter the tools we always had, you just chose not to use them”
…
“you always had the tools to counter the tools we always had, you just chose not to use them”
… like… direct damage?
… and something about condis making toughness worthless…
This is “you’re getting a new tool in addition to the tools you already had to counter the tools we always had, but your new tool can make our tools useless rather than less effective.”
Eles have never had issues with numbers of condition cleansing (the D/D heyday proved that). As I said before, the issue isn’t breaking that immunity, it’s keeping it broken. Most of the ele’s heals also remove conditions, so whenever they break the 90% threshold, they’ll almost always be condition-free.
As for Toughness not applying against conditions, that’s how conditions have worked. As you so gleefully point out, condition-applying skills (short of Corrosive Poison Cloud) do actually have a direct damage component (though small). Toughness does work against that. However, if conditions didn’t bypass Toughness, then it is the ultimate defensive stat with no actual counter. Conditions are balanced bypassing Toughness because they can:
A. Be cleansed to stop the damage early.
B. Have the applier be killed before they deal enough damage.
C. Be mitigated by regeneration effects and healing.
your new tool can make our tools useless rather than less effective."
except isnt that the case with dire (and rabid to a lesser extent) condi builds and toughness?
- also ‘your’… i have an ele; i know the class; my mains (because i cant commit myself to one class entirely) are guardian (mainly dungeons – i hate relying on other guards…), necro (wvw, spvp and some pve if i feel like it) and ranger (wvw and most none dungeon pve)
Most of the ele’s heals also remove conditions
heal skills? only ether renewel cleanses (glyph of whatever does only if you have the water GM and cast it in water… but x/x/30/30/x shouldnt really pose a threat)
the only two non-heal heals that i can think of that cleanse are cleansing wave (also evasive arcana… but look… another GM trait) and healing rain (lol staff)
edit i really need to stop starting comments then leaving them half written…
As for Toughness not applying against conditions, that’s how conditions have worked. As you so gleefully point out, condition-applying skills (short of Corrosive Poison Cloud) do actually have a direct damage component
Necro start with some auto attacks and or marks.
Ele LF + Earthquake
Necro dodge thus mitigate CC and Damage
Ele Switch to Water and is now at full health again
Ele uses Cone of Cold
Necro keeps auto attacking
Ele is now at 91% health but uses Cleansing Wave
Ele is now at full health again
Ele switch to fire and BS/ROF/Fire Grab
Necro is now forced to heal and still low on Life Force
Ele switch to air and RTL or updraft for CC and auto attack damage
Necro auto attack
Ele still not below 90% health due to regeneration from previous attune swap to water
Ele switch back to water or earth for some more damage
Ele is still at full health
….
….
….
Dead Necro
You get the point. Just play the fight out in your head vs a D/D ele
