Guild Wars 2

Bull Zooker.1672:

my warrior in full knights gear does more dps than my full zerk necro. though necro is soo mucch more fun to play imo.

I do plenty of dmg on my power necro, but I feel much more effective as a condition necro. I feel I deal more dmg overall using conditions

I feel my beserker necro does more damage than conditions and hybrid. Still nothing compared to my warrior or my guardian when running beserker gear.

tattoohead.3217:

spoj.9672:

tattoohead.3217:

spoj.9672:

tattoohead.3217:

I have been playing Necro sense launch and not only is it not bad its kitten… Just to be clear i have a war and i lvled it (and a mez) just for speed runs, if your looking to run CoF path 1 over and over… well roll a war guardian or mes (tyvm devs for not fixing this yet…) The idea that this game runs best with pure glass cannon builds is just wrong.

My necro tts out really nice DPS not DPA like war but overall its stronger, i run PVT gear and have over 3500 atk my Axe #2 (yes i run Axe sometimes) hits for around 10k and its on a 6s cooldown switch to dagger for dagger #2 and #1 and i have a nice burst combo (not including wells) Plus i have 28k hp and 3k def

bottom line i will fight you, i will win lol =P

…and i dont care about speed runs so if thats your think then, yeah…

How are you hitting 10k with PVT gear?

the “P” in PVT stands for Powrer lol, jk jk. I was surprised as well but trust me with 3500 atk your pretty beast! Crit + Crit dmg ie zerker gear is better but i like PVT play style. ill have to find it but i recently watched a video of a necro doing around 30k with Axe #2 (it was obviously set up perfectly but still impressive) so its easy to see how thats possible and i should prolly clarify that it ranges from 8k – 10k depending on the mob.

Really i just want people especially new players to necro to understand thakittens a wicked powerful class and if its your style its a lot of fun but its really hard to master.

I asked because I run full beserker and I cant hit anywhere near 10k with 3500 attack unless I crit. PVT shouldnt be criting so you should be hitting about 4k. That video was a 30k hit on a risen beserker (has frenzy so it takes double damage).

I have about 1k more atk than i do in my zerker gear (my zerker gear is exotic my PVT is ascended + Frost Fang)

Can you post your build? I would be delighted to play a build that hits higher than my current power build (Nemesis’s) while wearing tank gear.

Rennoko.5731:

Molch.2078:

Rennoko.5731:

I have long said that if they would fix the bleed cap problem, condition necros would be the king of PVE.

Whaitwhat?

…you do realize I just said that Condinec deals not much more damage then a GS autohitting Guardian. While that was slightly exaggerated, I dont se ANY way you outdamage a warrior. 9k DPS on 3 targets with + 30% / + 40% damagebuff for the entire party.

there are people that are new and might just believe that statement.

just saying

I guess if every part of the game is measured against COF 1, then you will always feel this way… but personally I would love to watch your full team of zerker warriors deal with the 10+ mobs on the ascalon fractal over level 40.

Not arguing survival vs. damage, but I am arguing that sustaining 9k dps on mobs is not possible if you actually have to dodge or intelligently avoid attacks.

Against a target golem though yeah, I agree with you.

But I am willing to be proven wrong. There is a risen champion giant thing that roams around alone in Orr. I challenge you to go kill with any class of your choosing solo, and I will go kill it with my condition necro, and I would be willing to bet I can kill it faster. (Yes it stomps, yes it summons adds, but hey… your a mega DPS machine… it should be no problem).

People get way to hung up on the idea they can go full glass and mash keys. My point was that the at least somewhat difficult content in this game isn’t that way.

^ this tyvm sir, please stop just spam running COF 1 and thinking your cool. You don’t even have to get into fractals to realize 100 blades speed teams are really only for a handful of content. Go play HoW or Arah sure we need dps but ill be kitten ed if i pick your glass kitten up off the ground when you get one shot.

I know this is a different point, but one thing I can say about playing a glass cannon necro in PvE is that it is much more fun (at least for me) than playing other “more effecient” PvE classes. I finally picked up those Lyssa runes and it is unbelievely fun to be able to run up to a mob, use fleshy’s knockdown for both the knockdown and ALL BOONS, throw down WoS and WoC and watch the mob melt with my dagger #1 and fleshy’s extra DPS

tattoohead.3217:

Rennoko.5731:

Molch.2078:

Rennoko.5731:

I have long said that if they would fix the bleed cap problem, condition necros would be the king of PVE.

Whaitwhat?

…you do realize I just said that Condinec deals not much more damage then a GS autohitting Guardian. While that was slightly exaggerated, I dont se ANY way you outdamage a warrior. 9k DPS on 3 targets with + 30% / + 40% damagebuff for the entire party.

there are people that are new and might just believe that statement.

just saying

I guess if every part of the game is measured against COF 1, then you will always feel this way… but personally I would love to watch your full team of zerker warriors deal with the 10+ mobs on the ascalon fractal over level 40.

Not arguing survival vs. damage, but I am arguing that sustaining 9k dps on mobs is not possible if you actually have to dodge or intelligently avoid attacks.

Against a target golem though yeah, I agree with you.

But I am willing to be proven wrong. There is a risen champion giant thing that roams around alone in Orr. I challenge you to go kill with any class of your choosing solo, and I will go kill it with my condition necro, and I would be willing to bet I can kill it faster. (Yes it stomps, yes it summons adds, but hey… your a mega DPS machine… it should be no problem).

People get way to hung up on the idea they can go full glass and mash keys. My point was that the at least somewhat difficult content in this game isn’t that way.

^ this tyvm sir, please stop just spam running COF 1 and thinking your cool. You don’t even have to get into fractals to realize 100 blades speed teams are really only for a handful of content. Go play HoW or Arah sure we need dps but ill be kitten ed if i pick your glass kitten up off the ground when you get one shot.

Which part of

I’ve played everything in this game but frac 20+ (got bored soon). I duo’ed and solo’ed Arah exp.
So far no content where 100% glass isn’t viable, no content where 100% melee isn’t viable. On the contrary: It’s the way to go.
And I know enought ppl who do fotm 40+. With full glass thief or ele, dual dagger, full offensive traits.

was so hard to understand?

spoj.9672:

Bull Zooker.1672:

my warrior in full knights gear does more dps than my full zerk necro. though necro is soo mucch more fun to play imo.

I do plenty of dmg on my power necro, but I feel much more effective as a condition necro. I feel I deal more dmg overall using conditions

I feel my beserker necro does more damage than conditions and hybrid. Still nothing compared to my warrior or my guardian when running beserker gear.

if our burst (outside of wells) wasnt single target I would agree, but as I can stack high bleeds and other conditions and epidemic every 12s I feel the AoE outweighs the single target dps. this is of course situational and my opinion.

I guess what I’m trying to say is we’re better at conditions than raw DPS

wiazabi.2549:

Necro will slow down a dungeon group no matter what.

Only in uberspeedrun situations. Outside that, speed depends so much more on the player’s skill and experience than on his class that it doesn’t really matter much.

A full power build, with dagger#1, ds#1, and eventually axe, hits hard enough. Harder than what most pugs bring along.

In WvW, and esp. zerg fights, a berserker/full power WoS+WoC+ds#4 is devastating. Putrid Mark hitting for over 3k is no joking matter either.

Chullster.3608:

Moxie.8531:

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. Hate to be a bother, but I really wanna try out this 30 0 10 0 30 build. Does anyone have a link? I tried to search for it, but not having any luck.

As I said before, it’s bad, don’t use it, search GWguru for a proper DPS necro build.

30/0/10/0/30 is a valid build in some situations. Soul Reaping XI is almost mandatory in Arah and WvW, and so are Greater Marks in WvW. For WvW however, going full power and full crit is a bit much, I rather get Focused Rituals and Reaper’s Protection, the +300 power given by the Spite tree isn’t necessary for more than decent damage… because yeah, builds are about more than just traits.

Bull Zooker.1672:

spoj.9672:

Bull Zooker.1672:

my warrior in full knights gear does more dps than my full zerk necro. though necro is soo mucch more fun to play imo.

I do plenty of dmg on my power necro, but I feel much more effective as a condition necro. I feel I deal more dmg overall using conditions

I feel my beserker necro does more damage than conditions and hybrid. Still nothing compared to my warrior or my guardian when running beserker gear.

if our burst (outside of wells) wasnt single target I would agree, but as I can stack high bleeds and other conditions and epidemic every 12s I feel the AoE outweighs the single target dps. this is of course situational and my opinion.

I guess what I’m trying to say is we’re better at conditions than raw DPS

Id agree we are better at applying conditions than doing raw damage. But even so i feel its still more damage just going beserker. Infact if you use a scepter on a beserker build, your bleeds still hit for around 70 which is actually not that bad compared to a full condition spec. Condition damage scales very poorly and i personally feel its not worth investing in at all for pve.

And the comments about 100b is just for cof p1. Please stop being so clueless. You can glass cannon melee everything in this game including 40+ fractals. But if you do it with subpar dps then you risk wiping because you cant kill things fast enough. Hence why the meta in pve is 2-4 warriors, 0-1 mesmers, 0-2 guardians.

I play all these classes in these situations except for war and mesmer in fractals due to my guild needing me to run dps guardian alongside our anchor guardian in high level fractals. I stopped taking my necro into fractals when the downed hp bug became too much of a problem and I could be more effective support wise as a guardian with reflects and aegis.

Molch.2078:

tattoohead.3217:

Rennoko.5731:

Molch.2078:

Rennoko.5731:

I have long said that if they would fix the bleed cap problem, condition necros would be the king of PVE.

Whaitwhat?

…you do realize I just said that Condinec deals not much more damage then a GS autohitting Guardian. While that was slightly exaggerated, I dont se ANY way you outdamage a warrior. 9k DPS on 3 targets with + 30% / + 40% damagebuff for the entire party.

there are people that are new and might just believe that statement.

just saying

I guess if every part of the game is measured against COF 1, then you will always feel this way… but personally I would love to watch your full team of zerker warriors deal with the 10+ mobs on the ascalon fractal over level 40.

Not arguing survival vs. damage, but I am arguing that sustaining 9k dps on mobs is not possible if you actually have to dodge or intelligently avoid attacks.

Against a target golem though yeah, I agree with you.

But I am willing to be proven wrong. There is a risen champion giant thing that roams around alone in Orr. I challenge you to go kill with any class of your choosing solo, and I will go kill it with my condition necro, and I would be willing to bet I can kill it faster. (Yes it stomps, yes it summons adds, but hey… your a mega DPS machine… it should be no problem).

People get way to hung up on the idea they can go full glass and mash keys. My point was that the at least somewhat difficult content in this game isn’t that way.

^ this tyvm sir, please stop just spam running COF 1 and thinking your cool. You don’t even have to get into fractals to realize 100 blades speed teams are really only for a handful of content. Go play HoW or Arah sure we need dps but ill be kitten ed if i pick your glass kitten up off the ground when you get one shot.

Which part of

I’ve played everything in this game but frac 20+ (got bored soon). I duo’ed and solo’ed Arah exp.
So far no content where 100% glass isn’t viable, no content where 100% melee isn’t viable. On the contrary: It’s the way to go.
And I know enought ppl who do fotm 40+. With full glass thief or ele, dual dagger, full offensive traits.

was so hard to understand?

I don’t disagree that all the content is doable in zerker gear at the highest level of understand of the PVE encounters. The mobs are predictable to a fault, and once you do the dungeon enough, you can anticipate just when to do your dodges and immunities.

That wasn’t my point. My point was that the damage a full condition necro puts out, when then entire stack of debuffs is devoted to them, a comparable level of damage against target/multitarget (epi), without the need to run zerker gear, and find a way to face tank all those mobs.

The reason I suggested the Giant in Orr, is because its a large HP sack of meat, which is great for damage testing, one I use frequently. It also, unlike Lupicus, doesn’t require any level of personal ability to effectively kill. Ergo it makes for a good comparable damage test. Since you can solo lupicus, it should be a breeze for you. Also it doesn’t require any pre-work to access.

Feel free to post the video and time. You vs. Giant. I will work on mine later today. It would be a good support for your argument if you kill it significantly faster than me.

mons.1386:

Afya,
Staff 2+mark of blood on dodge+weakening shroud+shroud 2+geomancy sigil+scepter 2 + epidemic —> 16 bleeds on your target and 25 on the mobs around it within 6s.

Just telling…

Self quote:

Don’t tell me you can spike bleed by traiting to dodge in dodge out, quick swap staff/scepter. It is just not consistent bleed and still slower than burst builds.

I know all these methods. But ask yourself, is it worth wasting dodge/life force/DS to get bleeds? We don’t have vigor and unless traited, that puts DS in 10s CD. Also wasting DS2 like this may ruin your position.

Rennoko.5731:

The reason I suggested the Giant in Orr, is because its a large HP sack of meat, which is great for damage testing, one I use frequently. It also, unlike Lupicus, doesn’t require any level of personal ability to effectively kill. Ergo it makes for a good comparable damage test. Since you can solo lupicus, it should be a breeze for you. Also it doesn’t require any pre-work to access.

Feel free to post the video and time. You vs. Giant. I will work on mine later today. It would be a good support for your argument if you kill it significantly faster than me.

Better to test it on the vet giants. They still have a large amount of hp and provide a good dps test.

Heres an example of an old dps test with warrior on the vet giant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WOonDJfRDk&list=PLzYy8FVzP3HauPQvucrlqudKTQFkoa4kg&index=4

A smaller HP target is going to favor the warrior. Bleeds take a while to stack up, often 15 seconds or more to get to the top end of the bleeds…. It would just put the results in his favor, but I will do both.

Also the vet allows them to completely ignore the grubs, while the champion does not.

…so you choose a mob that favoures the necromancer…

The warrior will still kill the champ faster. 25 stacks of bleed that hit for 140 per tick is only 3.5k dps, which is awful.

I chose a mob that has enough HP to test extended duration on an extended fight. It favors DOT yes, because you allow the dots to build up to full efficiency. Like I said, I will video both, but I am very certain that conditions will not pan out effectively against a low HP target.

Against regular mobs and vets – Burst is more effective, I don’t think that is up for discussion, but the closest simulation to a boss level mob that is easy enough to get to would be that champion I mentioned.

I am not tilting the scales in favor of the necro, just in favor of a longer fight. All these claims of 9000 sustained DPS, blah blah blah should hold up on bigger HP mobs just the same as smaller HP mobs right? Thats the claim isn’t it.

spoj.9672:

The warrior will still kill the champ faster. 25 stacks of bleed that hit for 140 per tick is only 3.5k dps, which is awful.

If he can handle the grub spawns and dodge all the stomps. The point being – sustaining high DPS when stuff is actually hapenning is not as easy as it is against face tank mobs in dungeons like COF.

Where is this champ giant? Gonna go see if i can maintain my dps rotation on my war.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/The-Zerker-Maximum-Damage-Axe-Build-1-1/first#post1700075

30/25/0/0/15

risen champ vid is in the thread, 40 seconds.

It was veteran risen giant, and 40 seconds is a snail speed for it. With dagger wells or dagger minions I easily got below 30 seconds but I dont remember the exact time though. Would be even faster now that focus is fixed.

Rennoko.5731:

I chose a mob that has enough HP to test extended duration on an extended fight. It favors DOT yes, because you allow the dots to build up to full efficiency. Like I said, I will video both, but I am very certain that conditions will not pan out effectively against a low HP target.

Against regular mobs and vets – Burst is more effective, I don’t think that is up for discussion, but the closest simulation to a boss level mob that is easy enough to get to would be that champion I mentioned.

I am not tilting the scales in favor of the necro, just in favor of a longer fight. All these claims of 9000 sustained DPS, blah blah blah should hold up on bigger HP mobs just the same as smaller HP mobs right? Thats the claim isn’t it.

The problem are not the onehit stomps or sth, but the Grubs. You can’t kill them fast enought.

How much mobs that spawn multiple ranged adds – thats the only problem here – do you have to fight by yourself in dungeons?

You can spam your damage rotation against almost every boss in this game. If you can solo a single champ in orr has nothing to do with viability in dungeons.

Sepreh.5924:

Go full berserker with dagger main hand, trait 30,0,10,0,30, drop well of corruption and well of suffering and see if the DPS is low :-p

It is low. Obviously you haven’t played a warrior or thief. They’ll be doing that amount of damage or more without having to use 40 sec cd utilities.

Molch.2078:

Rennoko.5731:

I chose a mob that has enough HP to test extended duration on an extended fight. It favors DOT yes, because you allow the dots to build up to full efficiency. Like I said, I will video both, but I am very certain that conditions will not pan out effectively against a low HP target.

Against regular mobs and vets – Burst is more effective, I don’t think that is up for discussion, but the closest simulation to a boss level mob that is easy enough to get to would be that champion I mentioned.

I am not tilting the scales in favor of the necro, just in favor of a longer fight. All these claims of 9000 sustained DPS, blah blah blah should hold up on bigger HP mobs just the same as smaller HP mobs right? Thats the claim isn’t it.

The problem are not the onehit stomps or sth, but the Grubs. You can’t kill them fast enought.

How much mobs that spawn multiple ranged adds – thats the only problem here – do you have to fight by yourself in dungeons?

You can spam your damage rotation against almost every boss in this game. If you can solo a single champ in orr has nothing to do with viability in dungeons.

I can kill the adds fast enough; and that AOE condition spread is what I bring to a group. It stacks on top of whatever else my party has, including warriors. But only if my bleeds arent getting overridden by someone else (the big problem with conditions right now).

You wanted to do Lupicus earlier? That is clearly a dungeon boss designed for a group, the only difference being this particular mob you cannot easily kill with a warrior and 100 blades in zerker gear.

I make no argument that a stacked 3 warrior 1 guardian 1 mesmer group isn’t the most bad kitten dungeon destroying alignment in the game. Necro brings few buffs, and conditions get nothing from group vulnerability.

By the way… this would be an example where 100% zerker and 100% melee isn’t the way to go, since you haven’t found any cases where that is so. Hopefully the developers will one day decide to make at least SOME of the content require diversity.

As promised – both videos attached: Champ and Vet

- Vet (30 seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvKNtiV1Iw8 – Champ (5 mins 28 seconds)

I am open to any other champ suggestions you have in the open world that you would prefer. I am sure you can find one that will tilt the scales towards standing still and 100bladesing.

The content is the problem, not the class. Creating dugeons and party compositions that discourage conditions/innovation. Punishing condition users by continuing to ignore the cap and having a system that pushes off longer/more damaging conditions for weaker/shorter duration ones.

Zerker should have been an option, with drawbacks, not the end all be all to every dungeon everywhere. And on that we agree. The vast majority of content is best destroyed by full zerker warriors.

By the way… this would be an example where 100% zerker and 100% melee isn’t the way to go, since you haven’t found any cases where that is so.

In a group, it would be. And as I said, this mob has nothing to do with dungeons. Warrior kils the adds way faster btw, they just don’t stack like they do in dungeons.

Now I am confused what you want to say about necromancers, their viability and their damage compared to warriors.

They could double the condition damage on all classes and berserker gear would still be preferable in most cases.

Actually if you can pull the champ giant into a place where you can make the grubs los to you. You can melee it fine in beserker gear. Warriors have cleave which is just a lower radius aoe which hits 2 less targets. Its merely strategy, just like it is in dungeons. It can all be done.

Warriors destroy that veteran giant so quickly anyway that they could probably get away with ignoring the grubs entirely. If you were really intent, you could line a few up and kill them with WWA / Bladetrail / Tremor pretty effectively too without missing a beat on the giant.

For PvE, between Well of Suffering, Well of Corruption and the one that blinds. Plague form and DS skill 4, along with staff skills 2 through 4, the question then becomes…

How many mobs can you get close to you all at once?

Necro’s problem is that the things they are good at aren’t needed in a good group in PvE.
It’s a flaw with PvE as a whole and won’t be fixed with a patch or two to our skills.

What needs to change is PvE itself.

Necro’s damage isn’t horrible, it’s just not as good as that of the Warrior and Mesmer.
Epidemic is great at Condition AoE, but for single target damage a Power build is much better despite being far behind Warriors.

There’s also a problem with Conditions being pretty good in sPvP but often bad in PvE and WvW.
In PvE due to killing speed and in WvW due to mass condi removal, Lemongrass and Melandru Runes.

None the less the upcoming patch is bound to add at least some DPS thanks to Burning.

Molch.2078:

By the way… this would be an example where 100% zerker and 100% melee isn’t the way to go, since you haven’t found any cases where that is so.

In a group, it would be. And as I said, this mob has nothing to do with dungeons. Warrior kils the adds way faster btw, they just don’t stack like they do in dungeons.

Now I am confused what you want to say about necromancers, their viability and their damage compared to warriors.

Not sure what you are confused about? The point was the damage isn’t the problem. You have made numerous comments that zerker warrior is the king of PVE DPS, which has now been narrowed to Dungeon DPS, where mobs can all be grouped, and AOE damage is of little threat, and you stack buffs.

Warrior is only the DPS king because the dungeon design allows face-rolling your keyboard for mad big numbers. I picked a mob that required some LOS abusing, some avoidance, and some skill. And then showed how it wasn’t even remotely diffcult to do on necro who puts up good damage in a condition clear environment.

Your exaggerated numbers of 9k DPS are what I am refuting, and pointing out you only get numbers like that in the lol worthy content that allows it. (Which is quite a bit, but not all of it).

To me it is ranged damage which I care about. Warriors get an automatic +30% damage due to being meleers so it will be hard to beat. I do not care about melee for myself. I like ranged play.

Bringing back that hybrid build of Nemesis that I posted on the front page it seems like Necros do well on the ranged damage.

Mesmers (my favorite) need to deal with illusions being easily shattered and badly coded skills (bouncing attack from the greatsword dispersing itself between allies instead of going enemy – ally – enemy – etc).

Rangers have a large chunk of their damage coming from pets, which are exquisitely squishy and in melee range (and dumb as bricks).

Elementalists either go melee or go middle range with… slow… animations… who.. miss… more… than… they.. hit.

Engineers go almost melee or go grenades. Grenades are lovely and stack a lot of useful conditions, but their damage goes to hell if a boss moves since each and every one is a skill shot (P.S. This is GW2, not LoL).

So I dunno, for ranged damage the necro seems quite okay (ignoring all ranged classes picking their respective melee weapons to get the 30% melee bonus and clap their hands in delight at the big numbers).

Any class can kill things in open world PvE because open world PvE is painfully easy. The only discussion really being had here is whether or not the Warrior is more valuable when speed clearing PvE content than the Necro, and the answer there assuming equally skilled players is resoundingly “Yes”. That isn’t to say that you can’t complete dungeons with Necromancers, because you can, but just not as fast as with Warriors.

Rennoko.5731:

Your exaggerated numbers of 9k DPS are what I am refuting, and pointing out you only get numbers like that in the lol worthy content that allows it. (Which is quite a bit, but not all of it).

Actually, if you do the math, a Warrior with proper setup can manage 10k dps during the 100B burst.

Rennoko.5731:

Molch.2078:

By the way… this would be an example where 100% zerker and 100% melee isn’t the way to go, since you haven’t found any cases where that is so.

In a group, it would be. And as I said, this mob has nothing to do with dungeons. Warrior kils the adds way faster btw, they just don’t stack like they do in dungeons.

Now I am confused what you want to say about necromancers, their viability and their damage compared to warriors.

Not sure what you are confused about? The point was the damage isn’t the problem. You have made numerous comments that zerker warrior is the king of PVE DPS, which has now been narrowed to Dungeon DPS, where mobs can all be grouped, and AOE damage is of little threat, and you stack buffs.

Warrior is only the DPS king because the dungeon design allows face-rolling your keyboard for mad big numbers. I picked a mob that required some LOS abusing, some avoidance, and some skill. And then showed how it wasn’t even remotely diffcult to do on necro who puts up good damage in a condition clear environment.

Your exaggerated numbers of 9k DPS are what I am refuting, and pointing out you only get numbers like that in the lol worthy content that allows it. (Which is quite a bit, but not all of it).

First: If I say PvE, I mean dungeons. My fault.
Sec.: 9k dps is no exaggeration in dungeons. It’s doable in every dungeon, even Arah.

And you can kill this giant with a zerker melee warrior, its just not superfast.

And you picked up a mob that favours range and AoE. Then showed how easy it is with a range AoE spec.

I am more than willing to drop it and leave the post if you can show me a video of a 1-2 minute fight, where you sustain 9000 DPS (or OVER 9000!) for the entire single target fight. I would be willing to wager, only during your 100k burst you can do that, and the rest of the time you are well below that point. Not talking multi-target fights, as there are few large HP multi-target fights.

If I add in other mobs in an AOE fight, in a might stacking group, in the volcanic fractal, I am running 24K DPS for a few seconds, ramping down as the bleeds fall off, but that doesn’t mean I can go around claiming that number.

Any fight mechanic which requires you to dodge/move/avoid/change targets, whatever, is going to cut into that. Since most fights don’t require that, it hardly matters, which I am no disagreeing with.

I chose a mob that favors ranged and AOE, and showed that having the ability to AOE 20+ bleeds from one target to five targets is an insane amount of DPS. Just because the current game design fails to provide any incentive to have this in groups, is the problem.

Rennoko.5731:

Any fight mechanic which requires you to dodge/move/avoid/change targets, whatever, is going to cut into that. Since most fights don’t require that, it hardly matters, which I am no disagreeing with.

Wait a minute. And a condition necromancer does not suffer from dodge/move/avoid/change targets?

Rennoko.5731:

I am more than willing to drop it and leave the post if you can show me a video of a 1-2 minute fight, where you sustain 9000 DPS (or OVER 9000!) for the entire single target fight. I would be willing to wager, only during your 100k burst you can do that, and the rest of the time you are well below that point. Not talking multi-target fights, as there are few large HP multi-target fights.

If you have a bunch of warriors that deals so much damage, the fights won’t last 1-2 minutes. And even when 9k is too much, 8k would still prove my point.

Maybe you should watch some videos from Strife.

Ive seen plenty of speed clear videos, I am well aware of how those groups work and how high their damage is. I am not questioning the DPS of a warrior is higher than anyone else in those ideal cases. I think the number is lower than 9000, but without a DPS meter it hardly matters.

The reason our DPS is lower:

1. We are ranged and suffer that damage penalty on normal attacks.
2. Conditions have no third offensive stat.
3. Conditions get nothing from fury/vulnerability/precision/power.

But our condition DPS is not bad…. it is only in a bad place when we get condition capped, and when groups can face roll the content. That is the only point I am making. Still waiting for that boss that takes 10 times normal damage on conditions.

Our entire argument started with:
I have long said that if they would fix the bleed cap problem, condition necros would be the king of PVE.

Bleed caps. Nothing about beeing range/melee. Nothing about condition gear and stats.

Open PvE is 99% trashmobs. And of those 1% champions, there are maybe another 1% like the giant in orr.

And as you said, in dungeons the speedclear faceroll warrior works. Even if you had no bleed cap, it would work better then conditionmancer.

I don’t think that you are the king of PvE because you can kill a single mob in orr.

Like your comment about guardians GS swing out-DPSing a condition necro it was an overstatement (The kings of PVE that is). The discussion being the weaknesses of the DPS of the class and the spec are not a result of the damage being too low, but of the content not being conducive to the build, and the CAP existing to prevent it doing more.

Frankly I know that 5 necros stacking 125 bleeds total on one single target boss are not going to be better than warriors/mesmer, but if you account for add mobs (like volcano fractal) it would definately be better. 5 epidemics on one mobs with 125 bleeds is going to be 625 bleed stacks on an add mob, which would be 90,000 damage per second. Its obvious to see why they have a cap. The question should be, is a cap of 25 appropriate.

If that cap was 50, or 60, where would the point be that would allow more than one condition class to be useful and comparable in a group. The reason this will likely never change ironically is because of epidemic.

I never said, that the guardian deals MORE damage, at least thats what I think is the word “almost” for – but obviously my english sucks, so I could be wrong.

But anyway, I think there is no need to continue this conversation. Your last few statements are 100% right, nothing to argue there. (or at least use pm’s, we’re kinda spaming)

Sometimes I think a forum is not a very good place to communicate, I’m sure face to face this would have been much more productive.

Afya,
Of course it is worth it.
The time you finish your combo,the doge you used is back and with spectral walk,you’re back to your first place instantly.
Personnaly,i use DS offensivly not defensivly so using it to add 5 bleeds and chill is a good way to go.
How are you using DS ? spamming 1 ?

LastDay.3524:

Necro’s problem is that the things they are good at aren’t needed in a good group in PvE.
It’s a flaw with PvE as a whole and won’t be fixed with a patch or two to our skills.

What needs to change is PvE itself.

Necro’s damage isn’t horrible, it’s just not as good as that of the Warrior and Mesmer.
Epidemic is great at Condition AoE, but for single target damage a Power build is much better despite being far behind Warriors.

There’s also a problem with Conditions being pretty good in sPvP but often bad in PvE and WvW.
In PvE due to killing speed and in WvW due to mass condi removal, Lemongrass and Melandru Runes.

None the less the upcoming patch is bound to add at least some DPS thanks to Burning.

Mesmer damage is among the worst in the game, what are you talking about? The only reason they bring a mesmer is for the time warp and temporal curtain/feedback.

If time warp is nerfed anymore, they’ll just boot the mesmer for a guardian, who does better damage himself with more group support.

Moxie.8531:

I have an 80 Mesmer, I thought it was the class for me. I decided to make a Necromancer and I love it! My guildies are discouraging, insisting I concentrate on my Mesmer or any other class, stating the DPS is too low for Necromancers. I love the class, I believe this is my main now. So a few questions, is Necro DPS low in comparison to other classes? Would you go back and choose another class instead? Which builds are the greatest for PvE (dungeons and Fractals mainly)? I’m rocking scepter/dagger & staff.

Well mesmer dps is also pretty low lol outside of an ideal situation. Sword AA is sad & in many fights the illusions are not staying alive + there is a ramp up time while you wait for cooldowns to summon. People are just taking mesmer for the utility -> reflects on focus and feedback, signet to double might stack &fury, portal, focus pull, group stealth, boon strip, timewarp. Unfortunately necro can’t really offer much utility so that’s why people dislike. Blind, boon strip = too long cd vs other class, condi cleanse = offered by other class, not important, lack of scaling heals, lack of buffs like boons, banners, etc, vulnerability = easily provided by others.

Actual necro dmge is not that bad i think tho obv not as good as warrior/thief. I reckon you’d be better off with necro/mes/x/x/x than mes/mes/x/x/x in group. Imo play the necro if you want and switch if there is some path which desperately needs reflects.

edit: for builds go either hybrid or power (ie at least 30 points in spite etiher way), reasoning being at least u still retain ok dmge if there is another condition user in group.

People say Necromancer DPS is low, but on my condition necro I bring the whole room to half HP before the rest of my team has killed one silver enemy. Thanks to epidemic, Necromancers are the best PVE condition class in the game. Necromancers are the only condition class that gets stronger from other teammates conditions in dungeons, and not weaker like everyone else. It helps that I have 46K total HP alongside of a 4.1k tooltip burst AoE from Bone Minions. I can just sick the flesh golem on environmental objects for sustained damage, since his attacks have a tooltip power of roughly 900-900-1350 in combo, and even on my condition build I’m pretty handy with a Dagger and Life Blast. I only have around 2k power alongside of my 1.8k condition damage, so I’m not an offensive direct damage powerhouse, but aside from the conditions I’ll do things like give the whole team protection, put down chill+blind fields, give AoE regeneration and condition cleansing, instantly rez people… you know, all that “supporty” stuff people keep expecting me to do instead of bleeding the room half to death.

Zenith.7301:

LastDay.3524:

Necro’s problem is that the things they are good at aren’t needed in a good group in PvE.
It’s a flaw with PvE as a whole and won’t be fixed with a patch or two to our skills.

What needs to change is PvE itself.

Necro’s damage isn’t horrible, it’s just not as good as that of the Warrior and Mesmer.
Epidemic is great at Condition AoE, but for single target damage a Power build is much better despite being far behind Warriors.

There’s also a problem with Conditions being pretty good in sPvP but often bad in PvE and WvW.
In PvE due to killing speed and in WvW due to mass condi removal, Lemongrass and Melandru Runes.

None the less the upcoming patch is bound to add at least some DPS thanks to Burning.

Mesmer damage is among the worst in the game, what are you talking about? The only reason they bring a mesmer is for the time warp and temporal curtain/feedback.

If time warp is nerfed anymore, they’ll just boot the mesmer for a guardian, who does better damage himself with more group support.

I’m guessing you’ve never dueled a Phantasm Mesmer.
Their damage is insane.
4k damage per Phantasm attack or something close to it.
The Warrior’s is even higher, they lack in other areas so badly you only see them in PvE and WvW, though.

I think that the only thing holding them back is that Phantasms melt in AoE, which means Mesmers are better as duelists.

I’m guessing it’s different for Shatter builds.

Rennoko.5731:

Molch.2078:

Rennoko.5731:

I chose a mob that has enough HP to test extended duration on an extended fight. It favors DOT yes, because you allow the dots to build up to full efficiency. Like I said, I will video both, but I am very certain that conditions will not pan out effectively against a low HP target.

Against regular mobs and vets – Burst is more effective, I don’t think that is up for discussion, but the closest simulation to a boss level mob that is easy enough to get to would be that champion I mentioned.

I am not tilting the scales in favor of the necro, just in favor of a longer fight. All these claims of 9000 sustained DPS, blah blah blah should hold up on bigger HP mobs just the same as smaller HP mobs right? Thats the claim isn’t it.

The problem are not the onehit stomps or sth, but the Grubs. You can’t kill them fast enought.

How much mobs that spawn multiple ranged adds – thats the only problem here – do you have to fight by yourself in dungeons?

You can spam your damage rotation against almost every boss in this game. If you can solo a single champ in orr has nothing to do with viability in dungeons.

I can kill the adds fast enough; and that AOE condition spread is what I bring to a group. It stacks on top of whatever else my party has, including warriors. But only if my bleeds arent getting overridden by someone else (the big problem with conditions right now).

You wanted to do Lupicus earlier? That is clearly a dungeon boss designed for a group, the only difference being this particular mob you cannot easily kill with a warrior and 100 blades in zerker gear.

I make no argument that a stacked 3 warrior 1 guardian 1 mesmer group isn’t the most bad kitten dungeon destroying alignment in the game. Necro brings few buffs, and conditions get nothing from group vulnerability.

By the way… this would be an example where 100% zerker and 100% melee isn’t the way to go, since you haven’t found any cases where that is so. Hopefully the developers will one day decide to make at least SOME of the content require diversity.

As promised – both videos attached: Champ and Vet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaB1a2CTNSw

- Vet (30 seconds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvKNtiV1Iw8 – Champ (5 mins 28 seconds)

I am open to any other champ suggestions you have in the open world that you would prefer. I am sure you can find one that will tilt the scales towards standing still and 100bladesing.

The content is the problem, not the class. Creating dugeons and party compositions that discourage conditions/innovation. Punishing condition users by continuing to ignore the cap and having a system that pushes off longer/more damaging conditions for weaker/shorter duration ones.

Zerker should have been an option, with drawbacks, not the end all be all to every dungeon everywhere. And on that we agree. The vast majority of content is best destroyed by full zerker warriors.

Few things to comment here. I always kill that giant on my power necromancer. I use well of suffering twice, once at the start, and once right at the end. Considering I don’t have wells traited, so I presume the time I kill that giant is ~50 seconds. However, there are two things to take into consideration here:
1- You are using minions, you aren’t wasting any time moving around, dodging his knockdowns, or healing up.
2- In a fight where more than one player is around, your condition build will lose its effectiveness because the maximum number of bleeds is 25. On my power build I can stack up to 8 bleeds instantly.

That’s all there is to it!

mons.1386:

Afya,
Of course it is worth it.
The time you finish your combo,the doge you used is back and with spectral walk,you’re back to your first place instantly.
Personnaly,i use DS offensivly not defensivly so using it to add 5 bleeds and chill is a good way to go.
How are you using DS ? spamming 1 ?

idk how you setup your conditionmancer. what did you give up for weakening shroud?
And do you always use your conditionmancer in melee for that to work?
And also gap close unecessarily for bleed, put yourself in a possibly wrong position and possibly mess up the pull depending on the situation.

You also mention you take 6s to stack all these up. Your warrior teammates who dish out 4k dps had already put 24k damage each. In my experience, if you have one or two zerker warrior, the mobs are already at 1/4 health or lower, and your defensive skills (blind, knockdown, reflect) are starting to run out.

I don’t know if you have one already. But after I make my berserker warrior, I start asking myself, why did I work so hard to stack bleeds while I can 2shot mobs in the same amount of time.

Azraeel.1238:

Few things to comment here. I always kill that giant on my power necromancer. I use well of suffering twice, once at the start, and once right at the end. Considering I don’t have wells traited, so I presume the time I kill that giant is ~50 seconds. However, there are two things to take into consideration here:
1- You are using minions, you aren’t wasting any time moving around, dodging his knockdowns, or healing up.
2- In a fight where more than one player is around, your condition build will lose its effectiveness because the maximum number of bleeds is 25. On my power build I can stack up to 8 bleeds instantly.

That’s all there is to it!

I tried it without minions and it took about 7-8 seconds longer, or about 40 seconds or so. That video was less impressive so I chose to not upload it. And the cap, as I so often complained about in just this thread is entirely the problem.

The problem in my opinion on your scenario is that your power necro takes 50 seconds to kill it with wells, while a warrior kills it in sub 30 seconds, without the long cooldown utilities. But that is a discussion about power necros, which I have little to no experience beyond staff blasting in zergs.

Sepreh.5924:

Go full berserker with dagger main hand, trait 30,0,10,0,30, drop well of corruption and well of suffering and see if the DPS is low :-p

Better yet stick ruby orbs on that zerker gear and use Lich form (yes I know people hate lich) but the 1 attack can hit crazy hard!

LastDay.3524:

Zenith.7301:

LastDay.3524:

Necro’s problem is that the things they are good at aren’t needed in a good group in PvE.
It’s a flaw with PvE as a whole and won’t be fixed with a patch or two to our skills.

What needs to change is PvE itself.

Necro’s damage isn’t horrible, it’s just not as good as that of the Warrior and Mesmer.
Epidemic is great at Condition AoE, but for single target damage a Power build is much better despite being far behind Warriors.

There’s also a problem with Conditions being pretty good in sPvP but often bad in PvE and WvW.
In PvE due to killing speed and in WvW due to mass condi removal, Lemongrass and Melandru Runes.

None the less the upcoming patch is bound to add at least some DPS thanks to Burning.

Mesmer damage is among the worst in the game, what are you talking about? The only reason they bring a mesmer is for the time warp and temporal curtain/feedback.

If time warp is nerfed anymore, they’ll just boot the mesmer for a guardian, who does better damage himself with more group support.

I’m guessing you’ve never dueled a Phantasm Mesmer.
Their damage is insane.
4k damage per Phantasm attack or something close to it.
The Warrior’s is even higher, they lack in other areas so badly you only see them in PvE and WvW, though.

I think that the only thing holding them back is that Phantasms melt in AoE, which means Mesmers are better as duelists.

I’m guessing it’s different for Shatter builds.

Duels are not a representative scenario for damage dealing performance in team play, because as you mentioned they’re getting cleaved down by dungeon mobs that can 3-shot guardians, or they get cleaved by a zerg before they can even activate.

Hey!
I just wanted to add my oppinion to this (it is a PvE based oppionion)

I have played every class at 80 and I enjoy most of them, they all have fun aspects. The necro is one of my favourite, together with thief and guardian. I have gear for both power and conditions but I tend to go power almost all the time, the conditions is nice for some dungeons and I always asks if someone else is doing it first :P

I absolutly love the power necro playstyle and I use both dagger and axe sometimes as my 2 weapon sets at the same time. Only bring out my staff for some encounters where range is a must. I recently paired my axe with a warhorn and I must say the aoe of that is enough for me at least. axe 3, wh 5 and DS 4 and you have yourself some nice numbers. Pop a well or 2 on top of it and boom! The dagger is paired with a focus for some single-target vulnerability high dps with some boon removal, it’s awesome. Granted you would want to see a change in dagger 2 and 3 just so I can dust those buttons off every now and then.

That said about the weapons I run all berzerker gear with ruby orbs atm and what I love about this is that I got so much survivability anyway. high healthpool and deathshroud really isn’t bad. I have countless times been the sole survivor of a boss fight hitting them solo for 5 minutes until dead with my fellow warriors, guardians, mesmers whatever lying on the floor relaxing.
I don’t know if I often happen to gang up with the wrong people who can’t survive but I take it that I’m atleast semigood at not dying.

I have tried a couple of different speccs, 30/30/10/0/0 – 30/30/0/0/10 – 10/15/0/15/30 (yes I tried the siphons and I wish they were better too) and whatever you can imagine. I can however not stop to think that 30 in soul reaping is just awesome. I love to shadowdance you see 100% uptime on fury, lost of stuff happening each time you enter DS, it’s just great. Sometimes I also just don’t equip a ranged weapon and just switch to DS when I have to hit something from a distance, it works.
I really hope the leaked notes are right about axe training being a master trait cause then I can go 20/15/0/0/30 (with 5 points somewhere I don’t know yet) and start shadowdance with my axe.
I know alot of people say axe sucks, and I thought so too at first, but the axe isn’t that bad when you do it right. Ofc I’ not saying it’s perfect and doesn’t need anything done to it but I really don’t like to complain about the axe.

Sure alot of you probably think I’m nuts and should get back in my box but this works for me, I enjoy it and I know I have good dps. As stated earlier I’m often last man standing and that is 100% more dmg than a dead warrior…
Only thing I really wish for is better minions, I really, truly want to be a minionmaster the way I was in GW1 but I guess that’s not happening.

That’s all for me, hope you can see where I’m getting at.

tl,dr:
Zerk necro got nice dps and great survivability, don’t let anyone else tell you different!
Conditions is also good if you’re alone doing it, however not as much fun imo.

Zenith.7301:

LastDay.3524:

Zenith.7301:

LastDay.3524:

Necro’s problem is that the things they are good at aren’t needed in a good group in PvE.
It’s a flaw with PvE as a whole and won’t be fixed with a patch or two to our skills.

What needs to change is PvE itself.

Necro’s damage isn’t horrible, it’s just not as good as that of the Warrior and Mesmer.
Epidemic is great at Condition AoE, but for single target damage a Power build is much better despite being far behind Warriors.

There’s also a problem with Conditions being pretty good in sPvP but often bad in PvE and WvW.
In PvE due to killing speed and in WvW due to mass condi removal, Lemongrass and Melandru Runes.

None the less the upcoming patch is bound to add at least some DPS thanks to Burning.

Mesmer damage is among the worst in the game, what are you talking about? The only reason they bring a mesmer is for the time warp and temporal curtain/feedback.

If time warp is nerfed anymore, they’ll just boot the mesmer for a guardian, who does better damage himself with more group support.

I’m guessing you’ve never dueled a Phantasm Mesmer.
Their damage is insane.
4k damage per Phantasm attack or something close to it.
The Warrior’s is even higher, they lack in other areas so badly you only see them in PvE and WvW, though.

I think that the only thing holding them back is that Phantasms melt in AoE, which means Mesmers are better as duelists.

I’m guessing it’s different for Shatter builds.

Duels are not a representative scenario for damage dealing performance in team play, because as you mentioned they’re getting cleaved down by dungeon mobs that can 3-shot guardians, or they get cleaved by a zerg before they can even activate.

I never said anything about team play.
I just said damage.

When you are in a 5vs5 on relatively big maps seeing 1vs1 is very common.
Likewise vs a boss that doesn’t spam a lot of AoE I’ve seen phantasms live for quite some time.

In actual gameplay it is dependent on many factors, such as Warrior’s damage being relatively easy to avoid completely and them needing to be in melee-range, Mesmers and Minion Masters having trouble with AoE and Necromancer dealing lots of AoE damage.
And Thieves… just dying easily at melee.
Saying Thieves have low damage would still be just plain wrong.

Either way I’m still saying that I believe it’s more of an issue with PvE combat not being up to bar.
In CoF it’s all about silly Zerker builds and at high level Fractals it’s about reflects and that sort of defensive things.

On that note WvW is unbalanced as well, but I remember Anet saying (ever since before release) that WvW wouldn’t be very balanced.

The majority of the balance is centered around sPvP 5vs5 Conquest, which leaves PvE and WvW with some major issues.

For example if high-level monsters in PvE used dodge rolls and Condi removal regularly Warriors would suddenly have trouble landing a 100 Blades in PvE and Bleed caps would be met less often but work through their dodges.

Likewise if many monsters didn’t just puke AoE all over the place MMs and Phantasm Mesmers would do much better.

The sPvP balance just isn’t doing too hot in PvE and WvW and that’s the root of many issues.