Guild Wars 2

Nemesis.8593:

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K…

You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely.

Now… you appear here again as if nothing happened.

Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”.

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened.

It takes a special kind of < >, to be able to act that way… after everything… i’ll give you guys that much.

“Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec. "

Nike said in the video linked below within the first minute of the video the following: Assuming perfect or near perfect rotations this is the highest sustained DPS build in the game in PvE.

He even says only with perfect or near perfect rotations! And you act like he says in all situations this build will be the highest DPS build in the game. This is a outright LIE.

“Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K… "

I’ve said this over and over again. “Math in a void” is used to show DPS comparisons between builds, no one was saying in a real fight you would be doing this all the time.

“You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely. "

Where did he say that dagger 1 in every situation was better? Give me a link to where he says that, until then, your again, lying.

“Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”. "

Of course some idiots are kicking necros. That doesn’t mean that Nike and Spoj and everyone who runs the meta is doing that. You see a few idiots doing it and then act as if everyone running the meta is like that. Kinda similar to something called racism, eh?

“It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened. "

Mind giving the proof that’s two links away then?

EDIT: forgot the link, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

EDIT 2:

“Did you just call all the people i showed in my “fractal LFG” which said “zerker ele or kick, NO NECRO” morons ?

You just called half the community morons… for believing what you guys were teaching them.

mind = blown"

A: Glad you somehow have statistics saying half the community do that, mind linking me to where you got those statistics?
B: Necro is less efficient, but overall it’s not going to slow down a casual tour that much. That’s pretty much what we have been saying, and you somehow take that as never ever take a necro in a tour?

EDIT 3:

“The advertised world records were done using multiple Icebows, which do up to 80K DPS for 3.7 sec, boosting the DPS of a player from about 8-10K into 28K… as you have clearly seen in the videos provided.”

Linecasting is banned for world records.

“You’ve seen Brazil’s DPS match that of world record holders, and unless his entire party was dragging him down… which they weren’t since i calculated their average / per player… as you’ve seen in the videos provided… a NON-ICEBOW record is about 30-35 sec.
I have already done a 30-35 sec Bloomhunger kill with a pug group… as you have seen in the videos provided.”

Average DPS per player. Lol. I hope you realize not every player accounts for 20% of the damage done right? At this point your making at best educated guesses at the times of a bloomhunger world record without Icebows.

EDIT 4 ( lol ):

“It is not “average of 20K DPS” as advertised, that was a straight up lie… unless you take out all the ramp-up time and just say for example… “sinister engineer does 20K DPS… in the 34, 35, and 36 second of the fight…” which is straight up pure insanity, and serves no real purpose other then to fool the community for personal gain.
Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ? You guys keep blowing my mind with how much you really understand about the game.”

The 20K DPS is over a 30 second fight with perfect rotations. I don’t know how much damage it does “on average”, but who was saying it would do 20K DPS on average? Again, a link is needed or no one said that.

“Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ?”

It’s not bases on peak DPS. Its a 30 second rotation. That’s hardly its peak DPS lol.

Shadelang.3012:

I noticed the trend is tending to be an attempt to shift the blame away from the people that make the and on to those that trusted it at face value.

Id just like to throw my two cents in.

First: Its the build promoters fault for not being EXTREMELY clear. And also (as evidence has shown) massively exaggerating there likely performance with said build. They should have taken steps to promote what the practical reality of there build is as well as the theoretical value. Ultimately the practical value is more important.

Second: its the fault of the players for trusting people on the internet. For assuming what there being told is 100% true and 100% accurate. And for not double checking what there told. Or even using common sense. It shouldn’t be hard to look at there numbers in game and do a bit of quick math on the spot. Its simple addition and division. And you can even round numbers to the nearest thousand and still get a ballpark estimate.

Honestly. I put more blame on the build promoters. They were the ones that truly benefited from any confusion. And they earned there fame based on that confusion.

At the same time though the ones that accepted those builds aren’t entirely blameless. Ignorance is bliss until you realize you’ve been mislead.

So not only do you want a warning saying Coffey is hot you also want label to tell people it can get your cloths wet? Oh and also that it can ruin electronics? At that point who’s fault is it? It’s like saying it’s not a persons fault for walking off a cliff not knowing it would kill you but instead the person who owns the lands fault for not putting up a sign saying you could die if you walk off this cliff. If someone doesn’t have common sense that’s there fault.

LOL Moderators banned me for posting the two links to the Nemesis Videos. GG Anet, you can´t stop the spread with your bans, they will be posted elsewhere, you have achieved nothing. Your handling of criticism with your game is just awful, censoring does not work on the internet.

And now you can ban me again, i don´t give a kitten.

mordran.4750:

LOL Moderators banned me for posting the two links to the Nemesis Videos. GG Anet, you can´t stop the spread with your bans, they will be posted elsewhere, you have achieved nothing. Your handling of criticism with your game is just awful, censoring does not work on the internet.

And now you can ban me again, i don´t give a kitten.

Well the videos were pretty toxic so………….

mordran.4750:

LOL Moderators banned me for posting the two links to the Nemesis Videos. GG Anet, you can´t stop the spread with your bans, they will be posted elsewhere, you have achieved nothing. Your handling of criticism with your game is just awful, censoring does not work on the internet.

And now you can ban me again, i don´t give a kitten.

“I exposed Illuminati” is not criticism. This videos were made just bash couple of people and bring a bit of drama to the community.

Khristophoros.7194:

Well what I meant is you didn’t show a large enough sample to be convincing.

A more convincing way would be to average out the real DPS of a character over many instances of the same encounter, then compare that to the theoretical DPS of the character. That gives you a ratio. Do this for other builds and compare those ratios.

If the ratios are all roughly the same for every build, then you were wrong and theoretical DPS is a good benchmark. If you find that the ratios vary drastically from one character to another, then you were right and theoretical DPS is a bad benchmark.

Scientifically sound, but impractical, too much work. Except for those people that use third party programs that access memory… Your point is obvious, and those people surely attempted this, but remained quiet about this. One might ask why? To publish the data is to relinquish that coveted position where people are dependent on you.

The extent of the error surprised me, until I learned about the 20k dps values. I can hardly imagine that they forgot to account for the animation times, so it must be the unknown heavy/mid/light armor reduction right? But that doesn’t influence the condi damage. Which leads me to speculate that some animation times were wrong or not accounted for (complex rotation), or there is another source of error besides dps uptime and errors in the rotation (very scary).

The sad reality is that Nemesis’s sample is the best one publicly (!) available right now. He showed both the bad dps and the good (check out the icebow vid for the bad ones). Some people argue about cherrypicking, but usually, their arguments come down to details like small mistakes in the rotation. Of course, some systematic error remains. It’s a pity that Nemesis is in this beef right now, so he can’t direct his talents in more interesting directions than proving stuff that has been obvious to him and many others with a brain, probably including those that he proved it too.

From a practical perspective, I can highly recommend Brazil’s advanced tactics for necromancers in fractals. All numbers aside, this shows that necro provides utility for parties. Now excuse me, for I’m going to casually perform a world record dungeon run.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Nemesis.8593:

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K…

You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely.

Now… you appear here again as if nothing happened.

Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”.

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened.

It takes a special kind of < >, to be able to act that way… after everything… i’ll give you guys that much.

“Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec. "

Nike said in the video linked below within the first minute of the video the following: Assuming perfect or near perfect rotations this is the highest sustained DPS build in the game in PvE.

He even says only with perfect or near perfect rotations! And you act like he says in all situations this build will be the highest DPS build in the game. This is a outright LIE.

“Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K… "

I’ve said this over and over again. “Math in a void” is used to show DPS comparisons between builds, no one was saying in a real fight you would be doing this all the time.

“You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely. "

Where did he say that dagger 1 in every situation was better? Give me a link to where he says that, until then, your again, lying.

“Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”. "

Of course some idiots are kicking necros. That doesn’t mean that Nike and Spoj and everyone who runs the meta is doing that. You see a few idiots doing it and then act as if everyone running the meta is like that. Kinda similar to something called racism, eh?

“It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened. "

Mind giving the proof that’s two links away then?

EDIT: forgot the link, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

EDIT 2:

“Did you just call all the people i showed in my “fractal LFG” which said “zerker ele or kick, NO NECRO” morons ?

You just called half the community morons… for believing what you guys were teaching them.

mind = blown"

A: Glad you somehow have statistics saying half the community do that, mind linking me to where you got those statistics?
B: Necro is less efficient, but overall it’s not going to slow down a casual tour that much. That’s pretty much what we have been saying, and you somehow take that as never ever take a necro in a tour?

EDIT 3:

“The advertised world records were done using multiple Icebows, which do up to 80K DPS for 3.7 sec, boosting the DPS of a player from about 8-10K into 28K… as you have clearly seen in the videos provided.”

Linecasting is banned for world records.

“You’ve seen Brazil’s DPS match that of world record holders, and unless his entire party was dragging him down… which they weren’t since i calculated their average / per player… as you’ve seen in the videos provided… a NON-ICEBOW record is about 30-35 sec.
I have already done a 30-35 sec Bloomhunger kill with a pug group… as you have seen in the videos provided.”

Average DPS per player. Lol. I hope you realize not every player accounts for 20% of the damage done right? At this point your making at best educated guesses at the times of a bloomhunger world record without Icebows.

EDIT 4 ( lol ):

“It is not “average of 20K DPS” as advertised, that was a straight up lie… unless you take out all the ramp-up time and just say for example… “sinister engineer does 20K DPS… in the 34, 35, and 36 second of the fight…” which is straight up pure insanity, and serves no real purpose other then to fool the community for personal gain.
Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ? You guys keep blowing my mind with how much you really understand about the game.”

The 20K DPS is over a 30 second fight with perfect rotations. I don’t know how much damage it does “on average”, but who was saying it would do 20K DPS on average? Again, a link is needed or no one said that.

“Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ?”

It’s not bases on peak DPS. Its a 30 second rotation. That’s hardly its peak DPS lol.

Besides the fact that this person tries to make it seem like no one was insta-kicking necromancers for two years now, as if there aren’t 130.000 google search results to “the necromancer is bad”… as if video proof is not 2 links away…

You guys can also notice he says “engineer DPS is 20K over 30 seconds with perfect rotation…”

My friend… the people you are now defending, by twisting my words… just called you an idiot. I believe flow or bawb said “only idiots believe engineer actually does 20K DPS”.

So… mmmm… you’re defending the ones who created the meta, which now go back on their statements saying “only idiots actually believe that”.

I don’t know what else to say to you, you’re like… owning yourself… i don’t understand this…

PS: Most of the things you said are 100% wrong btw, like the videos literally… showed proof Icebow was still OP even without linecasting on bosses with a large hitbox, and on bosses with a small hitbox it was useless without linecasting… that’s why the zerker meta worked only on bloomhunger, and in the rest of the fractals people were actually pewpewing while thinking they do 15-20K DPS as they were thought…

The videos literally show how many people said “your builds have been proved to be inferior…”, even though they were always superior… Spoj got paid for my work, the work he discredited… bahhh it’s in the videos which you probably don’t even understand.

Long story short: everything you said is 100% wrong, the videos show incontestable proof of that, not going to bother repeating what you can clearly see with your own eyes in the videos.

I don’t understand why do you even bother writing so much trying to convince ME… of something that is false, in the same thread which has MY videos which shows that i know all the real numbers…

I’m… going to go back enjoying some HoT now… this level of… i don’t even have a word for it, is… disturbing…
It’s like you’re trying to convince me a rock is actually water, while i hold the rock in my hand.

Let me just say I got involved into this out of pure curiosity. I am playing PvP and WvW 90% of my time so PvE situation, especially high level Fractals, is completely unknown to me. However, I know that Necros are considered to be bad and I know that people make LFG messages like “no necros” and I know players are being kicked from the parties just because they play certain profession that didn’t find its place among those builds/characters considered to be meta. Those things are fact, so denying it is a bit foolish and pointless.

So, we have Nemesis who challenges that kind of thinking and that makes me curious enough to investigate. On the other hand we obviously have group of people doing record runs which gives them the right to defend their claims about optimal way to do things. That is why I keep suggesting way to end this debate and show if meta is really so much better and more efficient that everything other than that is pure waste of time so that those not part of the meta deserve to be kicked.

However, going into this I have found one seriously disturbing thing (have in mind I am not supporting either side in this conflict). There is site which most people visit in search for builds (I am not sure I am allowed to name it, but you know which site it is). So, on that site each class has very few builds that are considered to be meta (usually 1-3). So, and this comes from purely WvW point of view, if you have build that is meta, are you taking into account other party members and their builds? If you have optimal party setup where each member has optimal build, doesn’t that mean that such builds are made just for that party setup and no other party setup?

To clarify what I mean: Let’s say there is meta build for WvW warrior. That build is posted on that mentioned site and community (large part of it that doesn’t know to make their own builds and figure out synergies) will just take that build for granted and force all warriors to run it inside their team. However, stop and think a bit about synergies. What if purpose of that warrior is to provide cc (just giving an example for conversation’s sake), but to be efficient, it has to have guardians running other build supporting the warrior. You also must have ele with water fields because you still need those heals. So, for that warrior build to be effective, you must complete it with builds for other members in the team. Ok, so let’s say that your team setup to work requires 7 guardians. Now, what if for any given reason in the world you don’t have 7 guardians in the team (3 of them got sick (players) and can’t play, it happens). Do you still keep on using that warrior meta build even though your group composition has to change which means that things you are suppose to be getting from some members are now impossible to get?

I don’t know about you, but I would definitely have to adapt to new composition, instead of stubbornly force meta builds even though some other setup, in that new situation, would be for sure more efficient.

Let’s give just another example. So far every Reaper build (based on shroud) has mandatory Unyielding Blast trait (applies vulnerability on auto attack in shroud). So, if I was to go for that build upvoted by the community to be “the best” and let’s say that I am member of a team with 7 reapers, does that mean all 7 should run that trait? Seven people to maintain 25 stacks of vuln? Really?

So, what does that mean? That means that in such situation meta build is actually less effective than some other build which would change that trait for something else (not necessarily trait from same line, but maybe completely different build that provides something else). You don’t need 7 people maintaining 25 stacks of vuln. At least 3 of those are better of doing something else so they must have build of their own that provides something else for the team. So, then we have 2 meta builds? Ok, but let’s take that 2nd build we made to complete 1st setup and put it another setup where there are no 7 reapers but only 1 next to you. That build would then be suboptimal because in that situation you would need the 1st one.

So, what I am trying to show is that every single build depends on the situation, party composition and player’s skill that is using that build. There is no meta build because every build out there when put into different environment other than the one originally intended for will stop being the most efficient way to do anything.

Consequences of this are that you cannot make site where you will put certain amount of builds and call them a meta and create idea in people’s minds that those builds are somehow the best for their class. Even if you write “THIS BUILD IS ONLY FOR LEVEL 50 FRACTALS!!!!!!!” you are still forgetting to mention that such build is optimal ONLY in certain party setup where ALL other members are running their meta builds that complement your build. That further means that you can have different composition which would use different builds but in such way to best complement that particular composition which would create another meta builds setup and so on and so on.

The way things are currently presented to the community through that site is damaging, it limits people’s creativity, it creates toxisity and makes gaming really uncomfortable for certain people who really like to play certain classes that are being excluded and in the end it conveys incomplete information for the consumer. So, regarding that I agree with Nemesis when he says that there is no “best build”, there is only “best at”.

Oh, please, can we have a dps recount tool ingame to end all this nonsense?

Nemesis’s videos summary: blah blah blah, everybody is wrong i’m right.

Nemesis.8593:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Nemesis.8593:

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K…

You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely.

Now… you appear here again as if nothing happened.

Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”.

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened.

It takes a special kind of < >, to be able to act that way… after everything… i’ll give you guys that much.

“Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec. "

Nike said in the video linked below within the first minute of the video the following: Assuming perfect or near perfect rotations this is the highest sustained DPS build in the game in PvE.

He even says only with perfect or near perfect rotations! And you act like he says in all situations this build will be the highest DPS build in the game. This is a outright LIE.

“Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K… "

I’ve said this over and over again. “Math in a void” is used to show DPS comparisons between builds, no one was saying in a real fight you would be doing this all the time.

“You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely. "

Where did he say that dagger 1 in every situation was better? Give me a link to where he says that, until then, your again, lying.

“Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”. "

Of course some idiots are kicking necros. That doesn’t mean that Nike and Spoj and everyone who runs the meta is doing that. You see a few idiots doing it and then act as if everyone running the meta is like that. Kinda similar to something called racism, eh?

“It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened. "

Mind giving the proof that’s two links away then?

EDIT: forgot the link, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

EDIT 2:

“Did you just call all the people i showed in my “fractal LFG” which said “zerker ele or kick, NO NECRO” morons ?

You just called half the community morons… for believing what you guys were teaching them.

mind = blown"

A: Glad you somehow have statistics saying half the community do that, mind linking me to where you got those statistics?
B: Necro is less efficient, but overall it’s not going to slow down a casual tour that much. That’s pretty much what we have been saying, and you somehow take that as never ever take a necro in a tour?

EDIT 3:

“The advertised world records were done using multiple Icebows, which do up to 80K DPS for 3.7 sec, boosting the DPS of a player from about 8-10K into 28K… as you have clearly seen in the videos provided.”

Linecasting is banned for world records.

“You’ve seen Brazil’s DPS match that of world record holders, and unless his entire party was dragging him down… which they weren’t since i calculated their average / per player… as you’ve seen in the videos provided… a NON-ICEBOW record is about 30-35 sec.
I have already done a 30-35 sec Bloomhunger kill with a pug group… as you have seen in the videos provided.”

Average DPS per player. Lol. I hope you realize not every player accounts for 20% of the damage done right? At this point your making at best educated guesses at the times of a bloomhunger world record without Icebows.

EDIT 4 ( lol ):

“It is not “average of 20K DPS” as advertised, that was a straight up lie… unless you take out all the ramp-up time and just say for example… “sinister engineer does 20K DPS… in the 34, 35, and 36 second of the fight…” which is straight up pure insanity, and serves no real purpose other then to fool the community for personal gain.
Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ? You guys keep blowing my mind with how much you really understand about the game.”

The 20K DPS is over a 30 second fight with perfect rotations. I don’t know how much damage it does “on average”, but who was saying it would do 20K DPS on average? Again, a link is needed or no one said that.

“Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ?”

It’s not bases on peak DPS. Its a 30 second rotation. That’s hardly its peak DPS lol.

Besides the fact that this person tries to make it seem like no one was insta-kicking necromancers for two years now, as if there aren’t 130.000 google search results to “the necromancer is bad”… as if video proof is not 2 links away…

You guys can also notice he says “engineer DPS is 20K over 30 seconds with perfect rotation…”

My friend… the people you are now defending, by twisting my words… just called you an idiot. I believe flow or bawb said “only idiots believe engineer actually does 20K DPS”.

So… mmmm… you’re defending the ones who created the meta, which now go back on their statements saying “only idiots actually believe that”.

I don’t know what else to say to you, you’re like… owning yourself… i don’t understand this…

PS: Most of the things you said are 100% wrong btw, like the videos literally… showed proof Icebow was still OP even without linecasting on bosses with a large hitbox, and on bosses with a small hitbox it was useless without linecasting… that’s why the zerker meta worked only on bloomhunger, and in the rest of the fractals people were actually pewpewing while thinking they do 15-20K DPS as they were thought…

The videos literally show how many people said “your builds have been proved to be inferior…”, even though they were always superior… Spoj got paid for my work, the work he discredited… bahhh it’s in the videos which you probably don’t even understand.

Long story short: everything you said is 100% wrong, the videos show incontestable proof of that, not going to bother repeating what you can clearly see with your own eyes in the videos.

I don’t understand why do you even bother writing so much trying to convince ME… of something that is false, in the same thread which has MY videos which shows that i know all the real numbers…

I’m… going to go back enjoying some HoT now… this level of… i don’t even have a word for it, is… disturbing…
It’s like you’re trying to convince me a rock is actually water, while i hold the rock in my hand.

’Besides the fact that this person tries to make it seem like no one was insta-kicking necromancers for two years now, as if there aren’t 130.000 google search results to “the necromancer is bad”… as if video proof is not 2 links away…"

So some idiots kick necros out of dungeons. That doesn’t mean everyone or even the majority of people who run the meta do that. I want a answer to a simple yes or no question. Do you think all people that run the meta insta kick necros? Just a yes or no will suffice.

“You guys can also notice he says “engineer DPS is 20K over 30 seconds with perfect rotation…””

So, what’s wrong with that statement? It’s true.

“My friend… the people you are now defending, by twisting my words… just called you an idiot. I believe flow or bawb said “only idiots believe engineer actually does 20K DPS”.”

I’v never heard of Flow or bawb before. I’m not trying to defend them at all actually…lol?

“So… mmmm… you’re defending the ones who created the meta, which now go back on their statements saying “only idiots actually believe that”.”

Who said this guy created the meta? No one single person “created the meta”. For all I know this bawb or flow guy or whatever his name is could not even be running the meta. That’s hardly the whole meta community now going back on there statements…

“PS: Most of the things you said are 100% wrong btw, like the videos literally… showed proof Icebow was still OP even without linecasting on bosses with a large hitbox, and on bosses with a small hitbox it was useless without linecasting… that’s why the zerker meta worked only on bloomhunger, and in the rest of the fractals people were actually pewpewing while thinking they do 15-20K DPS as they were thought…”

And how many bosses are there out there with a large HB? Also I think you got something wrong. Meta does not equal zerker meta. In some cases condition damage builds can be good. It’s just for dungeons bosses normerly die before condition damage builds ramp up to there maximum amount to be worthwhile. And the only people who thought they were reliably doing 15-20k DPS were idiots. Just because some idiots both run the meta and are idiots does not mean everyone who runs the meta is a idiot. Literally, you just see a bunch of pugs on the LFG that only half understand the meta and then make it out as if everyone who runs the meta must be exactly like them. Just because one person is stupid and runs meta gear does not mean all other people running the meta are like that nor is the rest of the meta community responsible for the idiots actions.

“The videos literally show how many people said “your builds have been proved to be inferior…”, even though they were always superior… Spoj got paid for my work, the work he discredited… bahhh it’s in the videos which you probably don’t even understand.”

The math says Spojs build out DPS your builds last I remember. Inb4 all this math in a void crap its fake etc stuff, it is used to compare different builds. So in comparison a dagger build would out DPS a life blast build last I remember. Some of your builds definitely do have some uses, but some like the necro heal build aren’t really useful.

“Long story short: everything you said is 100% wrong, the videos show incontestable proof of that, not going to bother repeating what you can clearly see with your own eyes in the videos.

I don’t understand why do you even bother writing so much trying to convince ME… of something that is false, in the same thread which has MY videos which shows that i know all the real numbers…"

This is a TL;DR of your two latest videos: math in a void isn’t the actual damage done in a real fight just like the meta people were saying so clearly the math is useless. And what do you say to this? All your latest reply has said is pretty much this: Some idiots who run the meta insta kick necros and think they do 15-20K DPS. The wrest is just this guy changed what he thought so clearly the whole meta community is doing the same, my video showed proof ( where? All your two latest videos were talking about was this math in the void pretty much ), your wrong etc stuff.

And the problem with how you do your math is because A: they aren’t perfect rotations and B: the buffs/debuffs will ALWAYS vary between fights. So what do you have to say to this?

Also you still fail to mention ANYTHING about how warrior is taken for its offensive buffs. Or how you bash the “elitists” and then go trash talk a necro for his build.

So let me get this strait. You think the meta is a lie because of the following:

A: Some idiots insta kick necros so that makes the meta a lie and all people who run the meta jerks

B: Some idiots think they do higher DPS than they actually do so the meta is a lie and all people who run the meta must be delusional

C: Theoretical DPS doesn’t = actual DPS in a fight which a lot of meta people were saying so that makes the theoretical DPS absolutely useless ( its not like you can use it to compare DPS right? xD )

D: Necromancer does more DPS than warrior ( proven wrong with theoretical DPS, to learn more about theoretical DPS go see C ), so that makes necro somehow a lot better, even so warrior is taken not for its DPS but for its offensive support

E: Necromancer has support other classes already cover or aren’t needed in a optimal comp

Z: Spoj said dagger mainhand was the strongest weapon for necro in PvE because in most circumstances it is as shown by math in the void ( to see discussion about math in the void, see C )

F: Meta people stack up mobs using loS which is clearly a exploit because you can read the devs minds on what is and isn’t a exploit

G: You could linecast with IB to achievement some high DPS, even so this wasn’t used in casual daily tours and was banned in world records

H: Some meta people broke out of the map to complete a dungeon faster, which both some meta and non meta people do, which means the meta is clearly a lie and all people who run the meta break out of the map in there dungeon runs

L: Some idiots fail to understand when certain builds are no longer optimal even when clearly expressed in a guide so that’s clearly the makers fault not the idiots for not listening to the video and still failing to comprehend when the build is and is not useful

If there is anything I misted plz let me know or if you still want to try to argue with one of these reasons given about how its actually valid plz let me know in your next comment. Failure to do so while you continue to act as if your points are valid will heighten the chances your just a troll.

I’m still waiting for someone to explain why wildy inaccurate calculations relevant to a small set of circumstances are used to justify pushing a very narrow set of builds for all types of PVE that inturn encourages a certain type of behaviour or playstyle ingame … even among ‘not-ignorant’ people.

Furthermore, if ‘non-ignorant’ people are aware their calculations and builds are not accurate for all situations, why they aren’t responsibly investigating the builds for the other PVE contents that ARE optimal to make the point that these current ‘meta’ builds are specific for certain kinds of content?

Math doesnt lie. Taking the math out of context and using it for purposes it wasnt calculated for would obviously cause discrepencies.

The dps values calculated were just assumptions of perfect rotations, no dodging, 2600 armour foes and max buffs. This was to provide a consistent comparison between classes. It doesnt matter if the real values are lower. The relative differences between classes is mostly the same. And the math provides you with the easiest and most effective way of gaging that.

It was never the math which pushed a narrow set of builds. It was the simple fact that they were the most effective. And people like to be efficient. There are many reasons for that mindset. Limited play time, better rewards for time, improving yourself by pushing for better times. The math was only used to try and work out relative differences in effectiveness. Its necessary to establish an understanding in this way.

It wasnt until math started getting used that people started optimising away from warriors and heading towards eles and then further to that changing the ele builds for certain situations. But dps is only a fraction of true efficiency. Which is why record runs have mesmers and other lower dps classes….

spoj.9672:

Math doesnt lie. Taking the math out of context and using it for purposes it wasnt calculated for would obviously cause discrepencies.

The dps values calculated were just assumptions of perfect rotations, no dodging, 2600 armour foes and max buffs. This was to provide a consistent comparison between classes. It doesnt matter if the real values are lower. The relative differences between classes is mostly the same. And the math provides you with the easiest and most effective way of gaging that.

Pretty much this.

AngryBear.8741:

Let me just say I got involved into this out of pure curiosity. I am playing PvP and WvW 90% of my time so PvE situation, especially high level Fractals, is completely unknown to me. However, I know that Necros are considered to be bad and I know that people make LFG messages like “no necros” and I know players are being kicked from the parties just because they play certain profession that didn’t find its place among those builds/characters considered to be meta. Those things are fact, so denying it is a bit foolish and pointless.

So, we have Nemesis who challenges that kind of thinking and that makes me curious enough to investigate. On the other hand we obviously have group of people doing record runs which gives them the right to defend their claims about optimal way to do things. That is why I keep suggesting way to end this debate and show if meta is really so much better and more efficient that everything other than that is pure waste of time so that those not part of the meta deserve to be kicked.

However, going into this I have found one seriously disturbing thing (have in mind I am not supporting either side in this conflict). There is site which most people visit in search for builds (I am not sure I am allowed to name it, but you know which site it is). So, on that site each class has very few builds that are considered to be meta (usually 1-3). So, and this comes from purely WvW point of view, if you have build that is meta, are you taking into account other party members and their builds? If you have optimal party setup where each member has optimal build, doesn’t that mean that such builds are made just for that party setup and no other party setup?

To clarify what I mean: Let’s say there is meta build for WvW warrior. That build is posted on that mentioned site and community (large part of it that doesn’t know to make their own builds and figure out synergies) will just take that build for granted and force all warriors to run it inside their team. However, stop and think a bit about synergies. What if purpose of that warrior is to provide cc (just giving an example for conversation’s sake), but to be efficient, it has to have guardians running other build supporting the warrior. You also must have ele with water fields because you still need those heals. So, for that warrior build to be effective, you must complete it with builds for other members in the team. Ok, so let’s say that your team setup to work requires 7 guardians. Now, what if for any given reason in the world you don’t have 7 guardians in the team (3 of them got sick (players) and can’t play, it happens). Do you still keep on using that warrior meta build even though your group composition has to change which means that things you are suppose to be getting from some members are now impossible to get?

I don’t know about you, but I would definitely have to adapt to new composition, instead of stubbornly force meta builds even though some other setup, in that new situation, would be for sure more efficient.

Let’s give just another example. So far every Reaper build (based on shroud) has mandatory Unyielding Blast trait (applies vulnerability on auto attack in shroud). So, if I was to go for that build upvoted by the community to be “the best” and let’s say that I am member of a team with 7 reapers, does that mean all 7 should run that trait? Seven people to maintain 25 stacks of vuln? Really?

So, what does that mean? That means that in such situation meta build is actually less effective than some other build which would change that trait for something else (not necessarily trait from same line, but maybe completely different build that provides something else). You don’t need 7 people maintaining 25 stacks of vuln. At least 3 of those are better of doing something else so they must have build of their own that provides something else for the team. So, then we have 2 meta builds? Ok, but let’s take that 2nd build we made to complete 1st setup and put it another setup where there are no 7 reapers but only 1 next to you. That build would then be suboptimal because in that situation you would need the 1st one.

So, what I am trying to show is that every single build depends on the situation, party composition and player’s skill that is using that build. There is no meta build because every build out there when put into different environment other than the one originally intended for will stop being the most efficient way to do anything.

Consequences of this are that you cannot make site where you will put certain amount of builds and call them a meta and create idea in people’s minds that those builds are somehow the best for their class. Even if you write “THIS BUILD IS ONLY FOR LEVEL 50 FRACTALS!!!!!!!” you are still forgetting to mention that such build is optimal ONLY in certain party setup where ALL other members are running their meta builds that complement your build. That further means that you can have different composition which would use different builds but in such way to best complement that particular composition which would create another meta builds setup and so on and so on.

The way things are currently presented to the community through that site is damaging, it limits people’s creativity, it creates toxisity and makes gaming really uncomfortable for certain people who really like to play certain classes that are being excluded and in the end it conveys incomplete information for the consumer. So, regarding that I agree with Nemesis when he says that there is no “best build”, there is only “best at”.

I completely agree with what you have said. However… there is a little thing to add.
The icebow > all on bosses with a large hitbox & the icebow > all if you used the linecasting exploit (even bosses with a small hitbox).

Now… because people saw Bloomhunger going down like it was made out of paper, they assumed “advertised DPS is right”… and the reason the others bosses die slower is because their HP is higher.
But that is not the case… Bloomhunger is actually the highest HP boss in fractals as far as i’ve seen, Bloomhunger and the Archdiviner both go over 2 mil.

So… even the “broken icebow with/without linecasting” meta was performing extremely poorly in more then half the fractals.
It was performing very well only on Bloomhunger, Dredge Fractal, Mossman if frozen, Asura fractal since there are multiples… because the mechanics crippled icebow, unless you used the linecasting exploit… which most people didn’t… as you’ve seen in the Flame Shaman’s case, the entire team’s DPS was 16.000, even with 6x icebows, before icebow was nerfed in half.

In conclusion… people were forced into inadequate builds for the encounter, people were kicked on false premise, players were blaming each other for failing to meet unrealistic expectations… and so on… an all around very toxic environment.

Why ?… because a few people wanted to be PRO, and get some views on YouTube.

Now… if people don’t realize that they never did 20K DPS… that the icebow was doing all that damage and only on bosses with a large hitbox… they will keep the meta for another… god knows how many years.

I’ve done fractals recently… people still use the icebow, even though it doesn’t do anything anymore.
People still kick necromancers even though there was no reason to ever kick them… a necromancer can pick up an Icebow just as good as any other player.

spoj.9672:

The dps values calculated were just assumptions of perfect rotations, no dodging, 2600 armour foes and max buffs. This was to provide a consistent comparison between classes. It doesnt matter if the real values are lower. The relative differences between classes is mostly the same. And the math provides you with the easiest and most effective way of gaging that.

That’s a little bit of my problem, and something that Nemesis outlines in his video … those assumptions are too broad or unrealistic to accurately reflect what’s happening ingame. You’re right, no one should really care what the absolute values are, but when you start comparing relative values, I don’t see how anyone being rigorous in their approach can keep those assumptions because they DO vary between classes; I can face tank more on Guardian than I can with … something else. On a mob with high armor, my Guardian’s damage get’s knocked down a bit compared to the Condition damage player. How much? Well, unfortunately, no one knows because everyone is so brainwashed by theorycrafters ‘meta’ to care enough to move away from their very selective assumptions to attempt to figure it out.

I’ve always said … theorycrafters are going to push the builds THEY want to you know about. Do you think I can get a straight answer on what how a might stacked Zerker/Sinister mixed gear FT engi compares to the meta? Of course not … because no theorycrafter thinks it’s meta to bother with it. It’s all a very nice setup they got going. They tell you what’s the best, then they tell you don’t need to know anything else because it’s not the best. What are they afraid of?

spoj.9672:

Math doesnt lie. Taking the math out of context and using it for purposes it wasnt calculated for would obviously cause discrepencies.

The dps values calculated were just assumptions of perfect rotations, no dodging, 2600 armour foes and max buffs. This was to provide a consistent comparison between classes. It doesnt matter if the real values are lower. The relative differences between classes is mostly the same. And the math provides you with the easiest and most effective way of gaging that.

It was never the math which pushed a narrow set of builds. It was the simple fact that they were the most effective. And people like to be efficient. There are many reasons for that mindset. Limited play time, better rewards for time, improving yourself by pushing for better times. The math was only used to try and work out relative differences in effectiveness. Its necessary to establish an understanding in this way.

It wasnt until math started getting used that people started optimising away from warriors and heading towards eles and then further to that changing the ele builds for certain situations. But dps is only a fraction of true efficiency. Which is why record runs have mesmers and other lower dps classes….

Not a single value any of you ever pulled out matches the reality… ever…
Your math is so all over the place that you can’t even scale it, so all the conclusions are wrong as well.

The math never accounts for ANY mechanics of any encounter, doesn’t account for armor which effects only power builds, doesn’t account for range vs melee DPS uptime… all of which totally change the outcome.
The math is 100% fake and pointless… it gives out nothing but false information… it’s utterly unusable.

Now… you just said “the math does not lie”.

Are you ok ? I know you like to discredit & troll me in general, maybe even put your name on my work… but… i think you’re pushing towards insanity atm, you should stop now.

Nemesis.8593:

spoj.9672:

Math doesnt lie. Taking the math out of context and using it for purposes it wasnt calculated for would obviously cause discrepencies.

The dps values calculated were just assumptions of perfect rotations, no dodging, 2600 armour foes and max buffs. This was to provide a consistent comparison between classes. It doesnt matter if the real values are lower. The relative differences between classes is mostly the same. And the math provides you with the easiest and most effective way of gaging that.

It was never the math which pushed a narrow set of builds. It was the simple fact that they were the most effective. And people like to be efficient. There are many reasons for that mindset. Limited play time, better rewards for time, improving yourself by pushing for better times. The math was only used to try and work out relative differences in effectiveness. Its necessary to establish an understanding in this way.

It wasnt until math started getting used that people started optimising away from warriors and heading towards eles and then further to that changing the ele builds for certain situations. But dps is only a fraction of true efficiency. Which is why record runs have mesmers and other lower dps classes….

Not a single value any of you ever pulled out matches the reality… ever…
Your math is so all over the place that you can’t even scale it, so all the conclusions are wrong as well.

The math never accounts for ANY mechanics of any encounter, doesn’t account for armor which effects only power builds, doesn’t account for range vs melee DPS uptime… all of which totally change the outcome.
The math is 100% fake and pointless… it gives out nothing but false information… it’s utterly unusable.

Now… you just said “the math does not lie”.

Are you ok ? I know you like to discredit & troll me in general, maybe even put your name on my work… but… i think you’re pushing towards insanity atm, you should stop now.

“Not a single value any of you ever pulled out matches the reality… ever…”

Which I think most of the meta people agree on. The point is to show a comparison, which brings us to the next point.

“Your math is so all over the place that you can’t even scale it, so all the conclusions are wrong as well. "

Your saying cold hard math is wrong? Plz go take a build, go take where they get the numbers and add them up and show where they are wrong. Then do that for all there builds. I’ll be waiting xD

‘The math never accounts for ANY mechanics of any encounter, doesn’t account for armor which effects only power builds, doesn’t account for range vs melee DPS uptime… all of which totally change the outcome.
The math is 100% fake and pointless… it gives out nothing but false information… it’s utterly unusable. "

Most bosses don’t have some weird mechanic that makes other builds viable. Armor for bosses is usually 2,600 and thus that is taken for that number. Of course condition damage builds get better vs higher toughness bosses, no ones arguing against that, but the average is 2,600. If your ranging then your going to not get any buffs….resulting in a huge DPS loss. Not to mention if your ranging your still going to have to dodge because the boss will still always be attacking at least one player. And you could max melee range in fractals anyhow to avoid a lot of the DPS downtime.

AngryBear.8741:

snip because too much text

I’m not going to respond to all of this, neither am I going to read through all these wall of texts here, but I wanted to point a thing out: Meta-builds are guidelines. If you can’t adapt to situations and change traits/lines/etc. out you are still a kittenty player. Everyone should be aware that one build can’t be the best for every single encounter everywhere, this is common sense and if someone really thinks that they’re dense as kitten to be honest.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

AngryBear.8741:

snip because too much text

I’m not going to respond to all of this, neither am I going to read through all these wall of texts here, but I wanted to point a thing out: Meta-builds are guidelines. If you can’t adapt to situations and change traits/lines/etc. out you are still a kittenty player. Everyone should be aware that one build can’t be the best for every single encounter everywhere, this is common sense and if someone really thinks that they’re dense as kitten to be honest.

This. Condition damage builds are good vs bosses with high armor or that can’t be bursted down, x utility is useful in Y situation etc

spoj.9672:

It was never the math which pushed a narrow set of builds.

Quoted from aforementioned website:
“Builds are scored on how well they help a party complete the dungeon run.”

Then they proceed to evaluate the worth of their presented builds for speed runs. Completely disregarding how, for example, a cleric guardian could make the dungeon run a cakewalk as well.

spoj.9672:

It was the simple fact that they were the most effective. And people like to be efficient. There are many reasons for that mindset. Limited play time, better rewards for time, improving yourself by pushing for better times. The math was only used to try and work out relative differences in effectiveness. Its necessary to establish an understanding in this way.

This is an artifact from the times CoF was the way to farm gold. It made sense then to grind path 1, as it was the most effective way to get the stuff you wanted.
But the times have changed. But the “we-must-clear-fast”-meta didn’t. Don’t get me wrong, every game needs a speed run meta, but if everyone is a speed runner, no one is a speed runner.

But in all truth we have to evaluate Anets actions too. It was way to easy to just burst down everything in sight, which in reaction, promoted “exploiting mechanics”, as Nemesis called it, by bypassing mechanics. Had Anet actually cared about making dungeon bosses an experience instead of HP bags things might have never become the way they are.

So what is holding us as a community to give players some fun builds to play, which don’t try to circumvent game mechanics, now that the PvE encounters changed? Why not educate about the purpose of speed runs in contrast to casual runs in order to alleviate the pressure players put on themselves and others which in turn leads to toxic behavior?

We can’t change what happened. We don’t have to shift blame around. But we can move away from accepting speed runs as the general meta for every aspect of this game Guild Wars 2 we all obviously have a lot invested in emotionally (looking at this thread) and promote builds that don’t only cater to a crowd that wants to emulate speedrunners. (shoutout to Wolfineer!) .

p.s.
Aforementioned website is riddled with digs at the necromancer class. Just sayin’.

p.p.s.
Novaan Verdiano I respect your healthy dose of no-bullkitten but the reality is, that there are many players out there which will see an advertised build from an established theorycrafter and assume it is the best thing since sliced bread, except stated otherwise in the title, the build name and guide. That’s just how ignorance works.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

AngryBear.8741:

snip because too much text

I’m not going to respond to all of this, neither am I going to read through all these wall of texts here, but I wanted to point a thing out: Meta-builds are guidelines. If you can’t adapt to situations and change traits/lines/etc. out you are still a kittenty player. Everyone should be aware that one build can’t be the best for every single encounter everywhere, this is common sense and if someone really thinks that they’re dense as kitten to be honest.

You are talkign about 90% of the community here…

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

AngryBear.8741:

snip because too much text

I’m not going to respond to all of this, neither am I going to read through all these wall of texts here, but I wanted to point a thing out: Meta-builds are guidelines. If you can’t adapt to situations and change traits/lines/etc. out you are still a kittenty player. Everyone should be aware that one build can’t be the best for every single encounter everywhere, this is common sense and if someone really thinks that they’re dense as kitten to be honest.

Unfortunately, the average player doesn’t use this kind of common sense approach to find a build they are successful with that they like … and meta pushers don’t encourage that kind of behaviour because it conflicts their own agendas as well; the whole purpose of establishing what is meta is driven by people wanting to make bank as fast as possible in dungeons and in order to do that, make everyone play a specific way to make that happen; no other reason for that meta to exist.

CastIron.7364:

spoj.9672:

It was never the math which pushed a narrow set of builds.

Quoted from aforementioned website:
“Builds are scored on how well they help a party complete the dungeon run.”

Then they proceed to evaluate the worth of their presented builds for speed runs. Completely disregarding how, for example, a cleric guardian could make the dungeon run a cakewalk as well.

spoj.9672:

It was the simple fact that they were the most effective. And people like to be efficient. There are many reasons for that mindset. Limited play time, better rewards for time, improving yourself by pushing for better times. The math was only used to try and work out relative differences in effectiveness. Its necessary to establish an understanding in this way.

This is an artifact from the times CoF was the way to farm gold. It made sense then to grind path 1, as it was the most effective way to get the stuff you wanted.
But the times have changed. But the “we-must-clear-fast”-meta didn’t. Don’t get me wrong, every game needs a speed run meta, but if everyone is a speed runner, no one is a speed runner.

Its not an artifact. I find it fun to go as fast as possible. I dont really care about rewards. But some do. And thats just as valid now as it was when cof was on farm. Before dungeon rewards were nerfed with HoT release, people would speedrun full dungeon tours for rewards. Some found it fun. Some did it purely for the rewards for their time. Some both.

These are all reasons for people taking up the efficient route. Whether its for fun, rewards or smooth all experienced runs. All are valid and a majority does share at least a portion of one or more of these mindsets. Even those of you who say you dont care about a few extra minutes can appreciate these views to some level. I think you would care if it became hours of extra time rather than minutes.

PS. I and most people in top PvE guilds have nothing and never had anything to do with Metabattle. That was done by someone who felt the need to bring all the builds together. Theres nothing wrong with that idea. But certain advise gets lost when it gets transferred to a third party. So if you are blaming the original theorycrafters for whats on an independant site. Then shame on you.

You will notice there are no dps values on our Dulfy guides. :P

Some of his thread O_o

/strategically scatters cookies and some kittens around it

Yes I’m quite aware the average player in this game is… well. Lets say I’m pugging a lot every day and I usually want to rip my hair off after 5 minutes.
That doesn’t change the fact that video/build creators aren’t to blame. Even if there was a huge, red text which tells you that this is a guideline, something that has to be tweaked according to what exactly you’re doing and it’s made so you can’t click it away for a minute before you can look at the website where the video, the build and whatnot are, people will still ignore it. Reasons for this are plentiful, none of them are good.
I’ll be honest, I’m lazy thanks to pugging too, at least when it comes to more “advanced” tactics since you just don’t see that in pugs and if I suddenly see something like people actually doing bosses open field instead of just LoSing them, it takes a moment for me to snap out of lazy-mode. Doesn’t help I’m guildless either but that’s an issue on my end. However, I always change traits, weapons and utilities + use food. It’s really not much effort and helps making runs so much smoother.

I think nobody claims that they do the DPS advertised in DPS estimates, especially the top PvE players who make those estimates because they know what they put on it. And I definitely think that going through DPS estimate is a good idea in general to optimize your build.

But I think a point Nemesis is trying to make (in his own unique way) is that the DPS estimate cannot necessarily be scaled down to actual values in a consistent way. In particular, his necro doing low DPS at range while being tanky may not need to dodge as much but can pretty much tank the whole fight head-on. Thus, when scaling down the maths to match more realistic scenarios, his build will keep essentially the math-calculated damage while a squishy ele will not.

Also, some fights have mechanics which necessarily favor one build vs another, the most obvious examples being condition damage vs high armor or high protection enemies. And it is clear we will see even more of that with HoT.

But I don’t think this means in any way that we should stop doing maths. I am a theoretician IRL, so I can say that maths are always useful, but the number you produce is not your final result. On top of this number, you have assumptions, and when you analyse your results, you should always analyse how your results behave outside of those assumptions.

So you can compute the DPS of a staff elementalist and say “well it is very high, but relies on your enemy not moving and you staying out of trouble, so it won’t work in this, this and this cases”. Already in core gw2, there are fights with very mobile enemies (I have in mind some encounters in HotW) where the staff ele is not as great.

You can also compute different DPS, and comment that one of them still allows you to be very tanky while doing it. For example, a reaper can have 100% crit without investing much in precision, so he can use tankier gear while doing as much damage as a berserker.

So in conclusion, one just need to stop speaking only about DPS. And as a matter of fact, the elite players already do that, the problem is just that the message does not necessarily propagate well.

Oh I finally realized it how he gets “real dps”.
1. Take boss fight with long invulnerability phases.
2. Find youtube video.
3. Boss hp/ time and devide this by 5.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Nemesis.8593:

Take your favorite elementalist build, and test out your REAL DPS in a fight of your choosing, you don’t have to tell me what it is… because i already know it… i know all the values, all the real HP values and so on…

By testing “real dps” you mean people should go to pvp and hit invulnerable golem couple of times?

And thus you see the strawman argument crafted by every elitist here. Not only are the numbers blown out of proportion, they calculate their magical fairy DPS in a mystical world that is nothing more than make believe.

Can we please just delete this thread already! It serves no purpose! Do I seriously need to bomb it?

TheLastNobody.8319:

Can we please just delete this thread already! It serves no purpose! Do I seriously need to bomb it?

It’s theorycrafting aimed at finding out real DPS numbers.

I know who you are mate… i’ve seen you in comment section a lot, usually trash talking which would explain why you want a thread which discusses real DPS deleted.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Oh I finally realized it how he gets “real dps”.
1. Take boss fight with long invulnerability phases.
2. Find youtube video.
3. Boss hp/ time and devide this by 5.

pretty much xd

So many people living in denial.
If someone else than Nemesis had come up with all the data Nemesis has provided people would be more likely to absorb it.
Stop hating the preacher and listen to the words he’s preaching.

The elitists have ruined the GW2 community and the HoT forum section is proof of it. EVERYONE is expecting to run zerker everywhere in PvE. Now look at all the whine posts about how hard the new HoT areas are because they all just end up getting pounded while knocked down. You’ve tricked even bad players into using the most ridicules build possible because of your silly meta.
Sadly such a small minority of players are so toxic to the community and they’re actually going to create nerfs to the game.
People with influence should be showing people other options of how to play, not focus on this ridicules zerker mentality.

Do people actually kick Reapers now though?

Substatic.6958:

Do people actually kick Reapers now though?

Not yet… but they still drop Icebows… and prefer to stick to old meta composition.

They will start again once they realize that power reaper is fact weaker then the previous power necromancer glass build.
At the moment everyone thinks reaper was a huge damage boost for the necromancer, which was sorely needed… hahahaha…

This is hilarious… i have no idea who fooled the community again…
Imagine… people might be using glass reapers instead of the previous glass cannons, thinking it’s superior damage… hahahaha…

Nemesis.8593:

Substatic.6958:

Do people actually kick Reapers now though?

Not yet… but they still drop Icebows… and prefer to stick to old meta composition.

Which is perfectly normal. PuGs generally adapt much slower to changes than e.g. speed-run guilds. It took people months (!) after the FGS nerf to acknowledge the changes that were made and even today there are still people that stack in the old FGS spots for no apparent reason.

Those are probably also the people that ask for “perfect” party compositions etc.etc….

In regard to your videos, I said it in the thread on your first video and say again: If you want to have a discussion among adults stop personally attacking people (regardless of your personal history with them) and accusing them of stupid kitten like faking math and manipulating their viewers to generate more views. That’s disgusting.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Oh I finally realized it how he gets “real dps”.
1. Take boss fight with long invulnerability phases.
2. Find youtube video.
3. Boss hp/ time and devide this by 5.

pretty much xd

Well it kinda works but all he gets is “dps” in a single boss fight where half the time you are not even supposed to hit the boss in the first place. It is just as “real” as a spreadsheet calculation.

Nemesis.8593:

Substatic.6958:

Do people actually kick Reapers now though?

Not yet… but they still drop Icebows… and prefer to stick to old meta composition.

They will start again once they realize that power reaper is fact weaker then the previous power necromancer glass build.
At the moment everyone thinks reaper was a huge damage boost for the necromancer, which was sorely needed… hahahaha…

This is hilarious… i have no idea who fooled the community again…
Imagine… people might be using glass reapers instead of the previous glass cannons, thinking it’s superior damage… hahahaha…

To me, it feels like a slight boost in damage. You’re so awfully focused on DPS only, why? DPS is one third of the trinity in this game, support and CC being the other two thirds; it burns through breakbars, finally has stability on a skill which is easily accessible, can destroy projectiles and has an expanding blind field. On top of that, we finally got a weapon with five man cleave as opposed to single target/two man cleave. Admittedly, five-man cleave doesn’t matter much on bosses, but it does matter a lot in fractals (where you often fight trash) and we don’t know if it’s going to have any major importance in raids yet. Possibly helpful in open world too, especially if you like to pull groups of mobs together to burn them down.

Oh and also, Deep Freeze on icebow is still a helpful asset if there’s nothing else to put on the Ele’s bar since guess what, breaking the bar stuns bosses for 5s which is extremely useful; if you manage to keep them as stunlocked as possible, that helps your team’s dps too since they need to dodge less and can just unload on the boss. Again, stop thinking about DPS only, there’s more to it.

So many people living in denial.
If someone else than Nemesis had come up with all the data Nemesis has provided people would be more likely to absorb it.
Stop hating the preacher and listen to the words he’s preaching.

The elitists have ruined the GW2 community and the HoT forum section is proof of it. EVERYONE is expecting to run zerker everywhere in PvE. Now look at all the whine posts about how hard the new HoT areas are because they all just end up getting pounded while knocked down. You’ve tricked even bad players into using the most ridicules build possible because of your silly meta.
Sadly such a small minority of players are so toxic to the community and they’re actually going to create nerfs to the game.
People with influence should be showing people other options of how to play, not focus on this ridicules zerker mentality.

Translation: “Look at those people who mindlessly copied a build and don’t even know what the dodge button is for, now they’re getting wrecked in new content where they don’t know how to deal with enemies yet.” <- This is exactly how it actually is. If people don’t adapt and take time to see what an enemy can do, they’re getting destroyed. Don’t blame the build creators for this. They advertise their builds as the most efficient ones, which is true as shorter fights reduce the room for error and additionally result in faster clear times if you don’t mess up. It’s not the fault of the build or the creator if the person behind the screen can’t play it/doesn’t know what to make out of it. Shifting the blame is a really bad thing, you know. But I guess that’s what people can do best.

Do you know that various Speedrun guilds did runs with all kinds of messed up specs for kittens and giggles, then uploaded them? I think there’s an Arah 5x Cleric Staff Guard run and I know for sure there’s a 5x MM Necro Arah p3 run because the uploader of the video was like “you gotta see this, it’s hilarious when we fight Lupi” (and it was because he healed for so much in phase 3 lmao) etc. – There’s lots of silly stuff and other ways to play, but in the end, speedrun guilds (as the name suggests) are the most interested in being efficient and making the most out of their class. There’s lofs of people who make video guides for builds, just search and you’ll find them. Besides, I never heard of any “respectable” speedrun guild member trying to legitimately force pure DPS-stats on anyone; if at all, they mention it as the best option and give sound reasons for why it is the best to pick in PvE, even without numbers backing it up (because really, that wouldn’t be necessary)

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nemesis.8593:

Substatic.6958:

Do people actually kick Reapers now though?

Not yet… but they still drop Icebows… and prefer to stick to old meta composition.

They will start again once they realize that power reaper is fact weaker then the previous power necromancer glass build.
At the moment everyone thinks reaper was a huge damage boost for the necromancer, which was sorely needed… hahahaha…

This is hilarious… i have no idea who fooled the community again…
Imagine… people might be using glass reapers instead of the previous glass cannons, thinking it’s superior damage… hahahaha…

To me, it feels like a slight boost in damage. You’re so awfully focused on DPS only, why? DPS is one third of the trinity in this game, support and CC being the other two thirds; it burns through breakbars, finally has stability on a skill which is easily accessible, can destroy projectiles and has an expanding blind field. On top of that, we finally got a weapon with five man cleave as opposed to single target/two man cleave. Admittedly, five-man cleave doesn’t matter much on bosses, but it does matter a lot in fractals (where you often fight trash) and we don’t know if it’s going to have any major importance in raids yet. Possibly helpful in open world too, especially if you like to pull groups of mobs together to burn them down.

Oh and also, Deep Freeze on icebow is still a helpful asset if there’s nothing else to put on the Ele’s bar since guess what, breaking the bar stuns bosses for 5s which is extremely useful; if you manage to keep them as stunlocked as possible, that helps your team’s dps too since they need to dodge less and can just unload on the boss. Again, stop thinking about DPS only, there’s more to it.

So many people living in denial.
If someone else than Nemesis had come up with all the data Nemesis has provided people would be more likely to absorb it.
Stop hating the preacher and listen to the words he’s preaching.

The elitists have ruined the GW2 community and the HoT forum section is proof of it. EVERYONE is expecting to run zerker everywhere in PvE. Now look at all the whine posts about how hard the new HoT areas are because they all just end up getting pounded while knocked down. You’ve tricked even bad players into using the most ridicules build possible because of your silly meta.
Sadly such a small minority of players are so toxic to the community and they’re actually going to create nerfs to the game.
People with influence should be showing people other options of how to play, not focus on this ridicules zerker mentality.

Translation: “Look at those people who mindlessly copied a build and don’t even know what the dodge button is for, now they’re getting wrecked in new content where they don’t know how to deal with enemies yet.” <- This is exactly how it actually is. If people don’t adapt and take time to see what an enemy can do, they’re getting destroyed. Don’t blame the build creators for this. They advertise their builds as the most efficient ones, which is true as shorter fights reduce the room for error and additionally result in faster clear times if you don’t mess up. It’s not the fault of the build or the creator if the person behind the screen can’t play it/doesn’t know what to make out of it. Shifting the blame is a really bad thing, you know. But I guess that’s what people can do best.

Do you know that various Speedrun guilds did runs with all kinds of messed up specs for kittens and giggles, then uploaded them? I think there’s an Arah 5x Cleric Staff Guard run and I know for sure there’s a 5x MM Necro Arah p3 run because the uploader of the video was like “you gotta see this, it’s hilarious when we fight Lupi” (and it was because he healed for so much in phase 3 lmao) etc. – There’s lots of silly stuff and other ways to play, but in the end, speedrun guilds (as the name suggests) are the most interested in being efficient and making the most out of their class. There’s lofs of people who make video guides for builds, just search and you’ll find them. Besides, I never heard of any “respectable” speedrun guild member trying to legitimately force pure DPS-stats on anyone; if at all, they mention it as the best option and give sound reasons for why it is the best to pick in PvE, even without numbers backing it up (because really, that wouldn’t be necessary)

I agree with you my friend… DPS is not all there is (and i have said that for years btw), there are dozens of variabless… which their “math-in-e-void” didn’t take into consideration, as you saw i explained in the videos… but beyond that… their advertised DPS still doesn’t matched real DPS not even in the best case scenarios… such as Bloomhunger world records.

As for the second part… i have proved in great detail… that their “effectiveness” was due to Icebow and it only worked on bosses with a large hitbox… or everywhere “with the linecasting exploit” which almost no one does because it takes a lot to set up.

So the old zerker meta was extremely strong vs Bloomhunger, Dredge boss and maybe Mossman… that’s it… yet people were running it everywhere oblivious to the fact that they don’t do 20K DPS, they are actually pew pewing with a skill which pew pews on bosses without a large hitbox.

Their entire meta was based on a broken mechanic which works without exploiting only half the time… they took advantage of that to advertise unobtainable DPS numbers on their “meta” builds backed up with 100% fake math, in order to gain popularity.

This… aggressive “berserker” crusade, over a period of two years, has led to the most misled gaming community in history, as you can now see for yourself in the HoT subforums.

So does anyone have any actual numbers, with proof about new reaper builds?

Pre-HoT my condition reaper was getting 7k dps with food, utilities, and self buffing only.

Proof: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Wow-we-do-terrible-dps/page/3#post5606619

I want to test this again with my reaper condition build, but i’ve been busy with HoT so it will probably be a few more weeks.

If you actually want real results then use a dps meter. There are plenty of completely legal ones out there for personal dps.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So does anyone have any actual numbers, with proof about new reaper builds?

Pre-HoT my condition reaper was getting 7k dps with food, utilities, and self buffing only.

Proof: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Wow-we-do-terrible-dps/page/3#post5606619

I want to test this again with my reaper condition build, but i’ve been busy with HoT so it will probably be a few more weeks.

If you actually want real results then use a dps meter. There are plenty of completely legal ones out there for personal dps.

Reaper was not suppose to give the necromancer more DPS then it already had for single target, that would be ridiculous. We can go up to 12-13K as it is, in a 30+ sec fight… “support” warriors stop at 9K…

It will take a long quite some time before people come to the realisation that no one was doing 20K DPS… except for Icebows on large hitbox bosses… Icebows which are now gone…

I’m still surprised how many people thought they were doing 20K DPS… not even burst… but DPS. Even if you can BURST 20K DPS… you guys do realize WvW would have turned into a FPS game where everyone has sniper weapons right ?

You guys would be 1 shooting each other left and right… would actually be hilarious.

I will say this again… they lied… their “advertised DPS” is not real. Some of them even said “only morons actually believed us when we said we do 20K DPS”.

Nemesis.8593:

Reaper was not suppose to give the necromancer more DPS then it already had for single target, that would be ridiculous. We can go up to 12-13K as it is, in a 30+ sec fight… “support” warriors stop at 9K…

Was a common knowledge for a veeeery long time.

Nemesis.8593:

It will take a long quite some time before people come to the realisation that no one was doing 20K DPS… except for Icebows on large hitbox bosses… Icebows which are now gone…

Same with this. I don’t remember anyone publicly claiming to do 20k dps without an icebow.

Nemesis.8593:

I’m still surprised how many people thought they were doing 20K DPS… not even burst… but DPS. Even if you can BURST 20K DPS… you guys do realize WvW would have turned into a FPS game where everyone has sniper weapons right ?

How many thought that they were doing 20k dps? It is very common for some classes to burst 20k+ but it is very impractical in WvW since players can dodge and you need to be full glass to do that.

Nemesis.8593:

I will say this again… they lied… their “advertised DPS” is not real. Some of them even said “only morons actually believed us when we said we do 20K DPS”.

20k dps 40+ step engi rotation in perfect world was never advertised as something anyone can do all the time everywhere. Hell this rotation was never actually demonstrated or recommended. People use simplified version of it.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Nemesis.8593:

Reaper was not suppose to give the necromancer more DPS then it already had for single target, that would be ridiculous. We can go up to 12-13K as it is, in a 30+ sec fight… “support” warriors stop at 9K…

Was a common knowledge for a veeeery long time.

Nemesis.8593:

It will take a long quite some time before people come to the realisation that no one was doing 20K DPS… except for Icebows on large hitbox bosses… Icebows which are now gone…

Same with this. I don’t remember anyone publicly claiming to do 20k dps without an icebow.

Nemesis.8593:

I’m still surprised how many people thought they were doing 20K DPS… not even burst… but DPS. Even if you can BURST 20K DPS… you guys do realize WvW would have turned into a FPS game where everyone has sniper weapons right ?

How many thought that they were doing 20k dps? It is very common for some classes to burst 20k+ but it is very impractical in WvW since players can dodge and you need to be full glass to do that.

Nemesis.8593:

I will say this again… they lied… their “advertised DPS” is not real. Some of them even said “only morons actually believed us when we said we do 20K DPS”.

20k dps 40+ step engi rotation in perfect world was never advertised as something anyone can do all the time everywhere. Hell this rotation was never actually demonstrated or recommended. People use simplified version of it.

If you don’t stop trolling i will report you… you do realize that when i troll baited you elitists, i got footage of most of you saying “staff ele does 16K DPS without icebow or timewarp”… maybe even you said that.

Enough lies… have some dignity.

… and if you’re trying to appear as if you agree with me now, it’s too late for that, you guys had 2 years to agree with me, but instead chose to discredit everything i was saying.

Ok so i read all of this and it’s clear nether side is going to back down/admit defeat.
How about we just say necros are better than most people think and all DPS numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.

I… I don’t even know anymore at this point.

I’m quite sure no one ever said “you can ez deal 20k dps in any given situation with that build” or whatever and yes the calculations are probably made under perfect circumstances. However, this is a requirement in order to properly compare what DPS classes can achieve; in real scenarios, you have too many factors you can’t control, such as being forced to dodge often or other things that cause you to lose DPS. That’s okay, because what is calculate is a measurement of what’s possible and it allows every class to be compared on an even playing field instead of, lets say Warriors being able to WWA through an attack while another class has to simply dodge, wasting DPS. This increases discrepancies and thus isn’t favorable when trying to compare possible DPS on classes. Of course that doesn’t apply to actual scenarios, who in their right mind would think that? What it does show however is that certain classes are capable of dealing higher total DPS than others, which is what the tests want to show in the first place.

As for Berserker being ineffective, wat. Just. wat. How.
Berserker, Sinister and Assassin are the most effective in game because of how the game works. It wouldn’t even matter if every class suddenly did half the damage, because that would mean every other stat combo deals even less. PvE in this game is about properly using your active defenses, if you need passive defense to survive that’s one thing and is either a lack of personal skill, because you’re new to content, because you don’t feel like going glass or a combination of those three. Sure, there are times where you give up DPS-related traits in order for utility, but this is in order to ensure your party can keep up better, making up for the loss from the trait or at least evening it out.

Nemesis.8593:

If you don’t stop trolling i will report you…

Go ahead. That’s one of the ways to end the argument if you disagree with someone.

Nemesis.8593:

you do realize that when i troll baited you elitists

So all this was a bait then? All this was made just to bait some people in calling you names? So YOU are the one trolling here? Confused.

Nemesis.8593:

i got footage of most of you saying “staff ele does 16K DPS without icebow or timewarp”… maybe even you said that.

20>16. ~16k is what you can get if you are fully buffed and can land auto + lava font on an average boss that has vulnerability. Just a warning. It may not work if you are doing it solo on a pvp golems.

Nemesis.8593:

Enough lies… have some dignity.

Feel free to correct me. If i lied somewhere it was not intentional.

Nemesis.8593:

… and if you’re trying to appear as if you agree with me now, it’s too late for that, you guys had 2 years to agree with me, but instead chose to discredit everything i was saying.

As people say “Nemesis has some good points”. I (and pretty much everyone who played the game a lot or has a necro main) agree than necro with a proper build has good damage. Thing is (and it what everyone keeps telling you) that necro lacks (mostly fixed with reaper) group support. I agree that pugs should get their facts straight before deciding who is bad and who is not.
I disagree that you should compare Celsius to Fahrenheit (dps calculations based on usual situations and spreadsheets vs dps calculations you get based on 2-3 bosses). I disagree that you should act like a youtube comment section on a bad day to prove your point. I disagree that build creators should babysit every single player. I disagree that intentionally taking 1 number out of context and then plugging it literally in every single post and then call people liars is OK.
Oh and I am not with “them”. My only connection with “those guys” is that I sometimes use their builds and rotations and tweak them to my preferences.

I guess this PvE stuff really isnt my thing, tho I liked Nemesis Vidz and seems his math is the correct one cause any PvP player would also say there is no such thing as 100% dps uptime. Btw for all you Eliteist pvE-player out there on this forum try kill agood WvW or PvP player… now thats a challenge…

likeing the Drama tho, and well done Vidz nemesis

Nemesis.8593:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So does anyone have any actual numbers, with proof about new reaper builds?

Pre-HoT my condition reaper was getting 7k dps with food, utilities, and self buffing only.

Proof: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Wow-we-do-terrible-dps/page/3#post5606619

I want to test this again with my reaper condition build, but i’ve been busy with HoT so it will probably be a few more weeks.

If you actually want real results then use a dps meter. There are plenty of completely legal ones out there for personal dps.

Reaper was not suppose to give the necromancer more DPS then it already had for single target, that would be ridiculous. We can go up to 12-13K as it is, in a 30+ sec fight… “support” warriors stop at 9K…

It will take a long quite some time before people come to the realisation that no one was doing 20K DPS… except for Icebows on large hitbox bosses… Icebows which are now gone…

I’m still surprised how many people thought they were doing 20K DPS… not even burst… but DPS. Even if you can BURST 20K DPS… you guys do realize WvW would have turned into a FPS game where everyone has sniper weapons right ?

You guys would be 1 shooting each other left and right… would actually be hilarious.

I will say this again… they lied… their “advertised DPS” is not real. Some of them even said “only morons actually believed us when we said we do 20K DPS”.

Without active defenses PvP is a FPS sniper game. Just stand there without dodging or blocking or invuln and see how long it takes an ele or thief or mesmer to kill you from 25k health. It is usually less than 1 second, hence why mesmer stealth daze builds were nerfed. Bursting 20k is easy, sustaining it isn’t.

However I have yet to see any actual dps meter readings on any of these fights/numbers. I doubt anyone is reaching more than 10k solo. With an optimized and buffed group you may be able to hit 14-15k.

I’d love to see people using dps meters to actively record their overall dps for an entire fight. I’ve found it very difficult to get people to do that though. I know I can hit 7k solo, but that’s really the only thing I am sure of.

So I’m sure I’m not going to add too much to this discussion…

I want to start off about that Nike engi vid. https://gyazo.com/520bb4d76e3f8dfb5a80c5b0650bc62c
Clearly he believes this build is the highest dps build for an engi beyond just dungeons and fractals.

But is it? Honestly I dont know lol. Somebody can answer that maybe. I don’t know.

As far as the nemesis vs “math in the void” debate..

The math in the void I take issue with just like I take issue with most game theory and even just broad statistics.

Averages generally don’t mean anything. Most what I’m hearing are “Ideal” scenarios that provide those dps numbers or even “fixed” parameters to sell a build.

This sort of sloppy broad-based averaging does the community no help. As we’ve clearly seen, its put a strangle hold on the meta which, as far as I’m concerned, is up for debate.

Much of the arguments I’m seeing is Nemesis trying to add the missing data to come up with more solid dps figures… I don’t see how this is a problem.

Nemesis.8593:

If you don’t stop trolling i will report you…

Yes, everyone who disagrees with you is a troll. -_-

You have not proven or disproven anything in your videos. Then you come on the forums and demand apologies, while being rude, condescending and disrespectful.
You’re even accusing spoj of stealing your work. (wtf?)
And then you have the nerve to call other people trolls?!
k.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Nemesis.8593:

If you don’t stop trolling i will report you…

Go ahead. That’s one of the ways to end the argument if you disagree with someone.

Nemesis.8593:

you do realize that when i troll baited you elitists

So all this was a bait then? All this was made just to bait some people in calling you names? So YOU are the one trolling here? Confused.

Nemesis.8593:

i got footage of most of you saying “staff ele does 16K DPS without icebow or timewarp”… maybe even you said that.

20>16. ~16k is what you can get if you are fully buffed and can land auto + lava font on an average boss that has vulnerability. Just a warning. It may not work if you are doing it solo on a pvp golems.

Nemesis.8593:

Enough lies… have some dignity.

Feel free to correct me. If i lied somewhere it was not intentional.

Nemesis.8593:

… and if you’re trying to appear as if you agree with me now, it’s too late for that, you guys had 2 years to agree with me, but instead chose to discredit everything i was saying.

As people say “Nemesis has some good points”. I (and pretty much everyone who played the game a lot or has a necro main) agree than necro with a proper build has good damage. Thing is (and it what everyone keeps telling you) that necro lacks (mostly fixed with reaper) group support. I agree that pugs should get their facts straight before deciding who is bad and who is not.
I disagree that you should compare Celsius to Fahrenheit (dps calculations based on usual situations and spreadsheets vs dps calculations you get based on 2-3 bosses). I disagree that you should act like a youtube comment section on a bad day to prove your point. I disagree that build creators should babysit every single player. I disagree that intentionally taking 1 number out of context and then plugging it literally in every single post and then call people liars is OK.
Oh and I am not with “them”. My only connection with “those guys” is that I sometimes use their builds and rotations and tweak them to my preferences.

You just said “16K is what you can get… with staff elementalist”…

Now… the video clearly showed that the NON icebow-carrier party members had on average ~ 12761 DPS… that’s zerker guardian, zerker elementalist, zerker thief and a second zerker warrior, on bloomhunger (which has lite armor)… with TIMEWARP… in a premade group…

Now… Brazil’s DPS went from 9561 at Bloomhunger to only 5K something in Ascalon… to 1.8K in Vulcanic…
The other players would suffer a downscale as well…

For you to have 16K DPS on a elementalist, you have to have lower the 1 sec skills that hits 16K each time in order to compensate for the aftercast.

If you use a 2 sec channeling skill it has to hit for 32K… for every 1 second you dodge you have to hit the next second double of a 16K once again to compensate for that dodge… + gameplay mechanics such as “power invulnerability shield, teleport, stealth” and so on… which all effect your DPS.

Do you really not see how insane your 16K DPS claims are ?

Tell you what… take your favorite elementalist build, go in a fight of your choosing… record that fight, and i will add all the damage for you… free of charge…

Do that… or stop trolling, because i will report you for trolling… there’s no way someone is this dumb unless he is trolling.

PS: Those 16K elementalist claims were without timewarp… with timewarp people expect 20Ks as the flowchart clearly showed… i didn’t make that chart…

EDIT: LavaFont + Fireball you said ?…

Lavafont has 4 sec channeling duration… + aftercast (which i will ignore since i’m to lazy to calculate the value of)
Fireball has “Attack speed is 1 attack per 1.4 seconds.” – source wiki.

SO… 16K DPS… how do we do this ?… don’t know the exact ratios because i played ele for 3 hours in my entire life, so i will assume… Lavafont hits/sec as much as fireball…

8K DPS from fireball + 8K DPS from lavafont = 16K DPS

Fireball has 1.4 sec AS… => each fireball hit has to be of 11K.
Lavafont is a 4 sec channeling ability and… “The damage listed is the total damage, not per pulse.” – source wiki => Lavafont has to hit for 8K x4 as in 32K.

Conclusions: you will do 16K DPS IF and only IF… you hit 11k fireballs and 32K lavafonts… or higher fireballs and lower lavafonts, or higher lavafonts and lower fireballs… which ever.

ARE YOU PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR MINDS ?
Stop talking now.