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Posted by: Valen.3649

Valen.3649

Hello guys,

I am returning to this game after over a year of pause, at which time I know necro was pretty much garbage and was not taken for many dungeons, much less for speedruns and high end record runs. I heard from a friend that necromancer was somewhat buffed now and was interested whether there are dps builds for PVE now that are within max. 5% range of the best overall dps from other classes and if one no longer has to be ashamed of not being an ele or warrior.

If yes, I would greatly appreciate a link or short describtion of that build, and if no, perhaps what other class I should be looking for. I adore ranged dps and hate tanking, prefering other people to be bludgeoned to death while i safely wait at a great distance throwing out spells and occasionally roll out of an aoe effect. I have no issues with complex rotations though I am not above cheesing stuff and playing with 1-2 buttons.

I have little to no interest in PVP, some WvW ability would be nice but not necessary.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

I don’t know how well I would trust people yet. Regardless of the fact that people think they are masters after 3 betas, it is pretty early to tell for sure.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Necromancer and Reaper are viable in PvE but we are still sorting out dps comparisons between professions using elite trait lines. There are a few general trends coming out of HoT PvE.

Necromancer and Reaper are both short range dps, Reaper even more than Necromancer.

Reaper, in particular, gets a large boost in dps with boon support from other professions so there is some group dependency.

Condition damage is probably still low compare to other professions like Ele and War.

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

I don’t bother with speed runs or meta teams for dungeons; most paths are so easy that your teamcomp doesn’t really matter much anyway. So I’m not sure how the Necromancer compares to the meta team in terms of clear speed.

I can absolutely say that the Necro’s damage is viable for regular runs, though. We output an apocalyptic amount of AoE damage with pretty good single-target DPS, too. On top of that, we have a lot of free tankiness that lets us anchor teams as long as we dodge smartly. Knowing the mechanics of a fight is always much more important than your profession, and if you do know the fight mechanics, there’s no reason you can’t be an above-average team member.

Condition damage is probably still low compare to other professions like Ele and War.

Our condition burst is pretty low, but our sustained condition damage is top-tier. Epidemic is inarguably the highest-damage-potential skill in the entire game, and even its average-case use is extremely high. I generally prefer power to condi on Necro, but don’t underestimate the power of a Necro’s condis with some build-up time behind them.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

(edited by Blaine Tog.8304)

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Posted by: Anzriel.1398

Anzriel.1398

Yeah, pve wise the only place necros seem to fall behind is trying to set world record speed runs. Assuming you don’t plan to try that you’ll be fine as a necromancer.

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Posted by: nekretaal.6485

nekretaal.6485

It’s somewhere in the middle of all the classes.

Still way behind the top tier classes. And even less ingame than what theory crafters will admit. Everytime you dodge, your gravedigger goes on cooldown and ranged damage for those times when it’s too hot to tank is pathetic.

#24 leaderboard rank North America.

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Posted by: Valen.3649

Valen.3649

I looked at the reaper playstyle and it is definitely nothing for me, I prefer atleast 500 range between me and the boss. I read a few guides in the past couple hours but almost all seemed focus on melee. I am still looking for a solid pure ranged build, condi would be ok since I personally liked dots, power would be great too, personally I believe a build with sinister/rampagers would suit me best. I would be interested if there are any of those around currently, and where I can find them.

I am personally not a great fan of Zerkers since it tends to get me killed and has more counterplays, but i can definitely see its value for solo content and bosses that favor bursting sustained damage.

(edited by Valen.3649)

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

For ranged, nothing beats Ranger. It is the only profession with dps increasing with range (long bow only). However, the Druid is a monster at healing so there is less dps there in case you do not like support jobs.

(edited by Anchoku.8142)

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Posted by: Nemesis.8593

Nemesis.8593

Hello guys,

I am returning to this game after over a year of pause, at which time I know necro was pretty much garbage and was not taken for many dungeons, much less for speedruns and high end record runs. I heard from a friend that necromancer was somewhat buffed now and was interested whether there are dps builds for PVE now that are within max. 5% range of the best overall dps from other classes and if one no longer has to be ashamed of not being an ele or warrior.

If yes, I would greatly appreciate a link or short describtion of that build, and if no, perhaps what other class I should be looking for. I adore ranged dps and hate tanking, prefering other people to be bludgeoned to death while i safely wait at a great distance throwing out spells and occasionally roll out of an aoe effect. I have no issues with complex rotations though I am not above cheesing stuff and playing with 1-2 buttons.

I have little to no interest in PVP, some WvW ability would be nice but not necessary.

The necromancer was never garbage… people were just using bad builds.
Necromancer’s only flaw was that he wasn’t able to summon Icebows.

Nemesis Youtube channel - necromancer & mesmer tutorials, PvP and more…

Nemesis live-stream channel - focusing mainly on Guild Wars 2, League of Legends and Dota II.

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Posted by: Valen.3649

Valen.3649

Yes nemesis I have seen your videos and I agreed but a class is only as good as its perception and getting randomly kicked was kittening me off

really they mature language filtered it to kittening?…

Anyway since I am not a great fan of melee I wanna try out a condimancer. What gear is the way to go, sinister?

(edited by Valen.3649)

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Posted by: Aenesthesia.1697

Aenesthesia.1697

Hybrid reaper could be a thing. I have to do some numbers, but applying burns with duumfire in reaper shroud is a piece of cake. I wonder if the damage output is enough, though…….

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Posted by: Valen.3649

Valen.3649

Hybrid reaper could be a thing. I have to do some numbers, but applying burns with duumfire in reaper shroud is a piece of cake. I wonder if the damage output is enough, though…….

So Reaper’s that strong eh? Thought about just going full sceptre with spite curses and SR, foregoing the reaper in favor of ranged might stacking and dhuumfire for DP. Fury+Sinister+DP would add up to just about 100% I believe… I just really dislike melee. I dont know, I always get hammered Into the ground by something I get to close to it or spend half the time dodging stuff like a madman… talk about dps uptime. If I can’t make ranged nec work I believe I will try a ranger instead since the global ranger hatred is down aswell.

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Posted by: Valen.3649

Valen.3649

As for theorycrafting, raw data analysis should never be more than a basic guideline. While I have little experience with it in GW2 I have a kittenton of experience with it from WoW, and know that patchwork numbers you get from just calculating best case scenarios are NEVER correct, never, they were not even correct for patchwerk.

While they do provide a raw perception of the potential power they mostly fail to aknowledge things as resistances, forced downtimes, movement, human error and aoe. Without a proper dmg meter full time video analysis is the only reliable way to determine dps.

I have, by the way, still no idea what gear I should by XD

(edited by Valen.3649)

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Posted by: Dead.5829

Dead.5829

For ranged, nothing beats Ranger. It is the only profession with dps increasing with range (long bow only).

Dragonhunters also have this increased damage at longer range.

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Posted by: Amethyst Lure.5624

Amethyst Lure.5624

Every thread I read here due to coriosity/interest in its topic seems to lead to a pair of people not able to stop arguing with one another, rather than discussing the topic?

Anyway, I’m having fun with my Reaper; I can’t really give any numbers though. I feel like while Gs and such is melee, Necro can handle melee range better than most classes in the game.

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Posted by: BoogerSammich.7189

BoogerSammich.7189

Yes, every class is viable.
Using the word “viable” is just silly.
Also, i have great respect for all of the people who put in work trying to figure out how these classes work, damage output, etc.
However, I see VERY few posts, guides, or “information” that does anything other than promote a particular person’s agenda.
This is from all sides of the argument.
Bottom line:
-We have no DPS tools, any conversation on this topic is merely speculation. albeit, often informed speculation, but speculation nonetheless.
-There is more to combat than DPS. Anyone who feels otherwise or simply does not acknowledge this fact is just not worth considering as a source of information or even conversation.
-Anyone who would either kick a player or flat out not accept a player to group based on speculation and 3rd party “information” is a bad, lazy player. A discerning person would be inclined to disregard this sort of person and their opinions.
-And finally, ALL classes are “viable”. ALL classes have their strengths and weaknesses. A GOOD team of GOOD PLAYERS, will put together a winning group with whatever you feel like bringing to the fight.

/RANT

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Posted by: Valen.3649

Valen.3649

I … guess I will just go back to playing witcher 3….

(edited by Valen.3649)

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Posted by: MusicMuse.5749

MusicMuse.5749

Yes, every class is viable.
Using the word “viable” is just silly.
Also, i have great respect for all of the people who put in work trying to figure out how these classes work, damage output, etc.
However, I see VERY few posts, guides, or “information” that does anything other than promote a particular person’s agenda.
This is from all sides of the argument.
Bottom line:
-We have no DPS tools, any conversation on this topic is merely speculation. albeit, often informed speculation, but speculation nonetheless.
-There is more to combat than DPS. Anyone who feels otherwise or simply does not acknowledge this fact is just not worth considering as a source of information or even conversation.
-Anyone who would either kick a player or flat out not accept a player to group based on speculation and 3rd party “information” is a bad, lazy player. A discerning person would be inclined to disregard this sort of person and their opinions.
-And finally, ALL classes are “viable”. ALL classes have their strengths and weaknesses. A GOOD team of GOOD PLAYERS, will put together a winning group with whatever you feel like bringing to the fight.

/RANT

For the most part I agree, but when people see what the people they look up to and go to for advice acting a certain way or doing certain things, they will want to copy that person. In this case they decided some classes, based on the aforementioned false information, arent good enough to take in their groups, and everyone else followed suit.

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Posted by: NovaanVerdiano.6174

NovaanVerdiano.6174

Thread’s gonna be locked by tomorrow. lmao
Also, apologies, I just glanced over the response since I’m not gonna bother to read through all the responses considering half of this topic is going to be full with bullkitten/derailed posts again.

Yeah, Necro is quite viable. Nothing “lets go beat record runs”-worthy, but an valuable asset to a group, even more so if fights start to take longer as Blood Magic is a wonderful traitline to help your team out, Reaper and Reaper Shroud bring some nice additions to the table, just destroy breakbars like there’s no tomorrow and a Necromancer actually has a few tricks up their sleeve, if you’re aware of what your skills do and how they work. Minions pretty much stopped sucking completely and are actually recommended in some situations (Minions are really great in the Thaumanova fractal on high scales when fighting the Anomaly lol)
Their DPS is nothing groundbreaking, but it’s not horrible either.

But if you prefer ranged, go with what Spoj said and roll an Engineer, as that’s probably your best bet for ranged gameplay.

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Posted by: MusicMuse.5749

MusicMuse.5749

The necro dps now is pretty incredible, albeit we dont have any dps meters, but I feel like I kill stuff very fast. Youre right about the lack of ranged damage, but you cant have everything. Makes up for it by having incredible melee damage.

The old speed run metas were based on berserker ice bow, Id be willing to bet necros could make it into some world records now though.

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Posted by: savacli.8172

savacli.8172

Is Necro DPS viable? Yep, it can feel like you’re hitting like a truck at times.

Though, being honest I wouldn’t roll Necro is you prefer ranged DPS. Necro excels at close combat and relies more of damage soaking rather than mitigation. Our Shrouds are both for offense and defense.

Necros have been improving over time, but the biggest issue that still curses them (no pun intended) is that their limited group support/buffs aren’t as worthwhile when compared to what other classes would bring. For the longest time they had the label of the most selfish class mainly because they really didn’t have much to offer to the team.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll accept a Necro with open arms nowadays now that they have their great lifesteal buff, but if I could choose from a line up I wouldn’t say Necro would be my first pick.

Off-topic
Spoj, your guides are what got me interested in playing the class to begin with <3

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Posted by: Aenesthesia.1697

Aenesthesia.1697

Hybrid reaper could be a thing. I have to do some numbers, but applying burns with duumfire in reaper shroud is a piece of cake. I wonder if the damage output is enough, though…….

So Reaper’s that strong eh? Thought about just going full sceptre with spite curses and SR, foregoing the reaper in favor of ranged might stacking and dhuumfire for DP. Fury+Sinister+DP would add up to just about 100% I believe… I just really dislike melee. I dont know, I always get hammered Into the ground by something I get to close to it or spend half the time dodging stuff like a madman… talk about dps uptime. If I can’t make ranged nec work I believe I will try a ranger instead since the global ranger hatred is down aswell.

no, i’m not saying it is THAT strong. Just suggesting it could be a thing. I think that maybe hybrid is not a great idea since the change to the condi cap. It’s more flexible than either zerk and pure condi, but without reaching the condition cap, there is no reason to go direct damage and, if there was (meaning direct damage would be higher than conditions) then why go conditions in the first place?

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Posted by: BoogerSammich.7189

BoogerSammich.7189

^^Thread locking in 3,2,…

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

HP values are pretty much public.

http://gw2dungeons.net/

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

@OP: if you love you some Necromancer, you can make it work. Ranged Power is probably the only place you’ll feel really lacking. Ranged Condi will most likely work for you if you like Condi.

I’ve always thought GW2 theorycrafters were too aggressive in their assertions, but maniacally trying to debunk anything they have said at any point without context just makes me really really sad.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

I … guess I will just go back to playing witcher 3….

Nooo! Don’t let the forum drama put you off. Necros are fun! They really, really are.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

I … guess I will just go back to playing witcher 3….

Nooo! Don’t let the forum drama put you off. Necros are fun! They really, really are.

Agreed. Two people having a disagreement on a forum shouldn’t stop you from enjoying a game. You’ve gotten some solid feedback. If you want to go out and wreck things, do it. And you can take comfort in the fact that whenever you want to see two people argue again, all you have to do is put spoj and nemesis in a room.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: Joxer.6024

Joxer.6024

Take to heart what others have suggested and look at Engi if ranged is really your love. BUT, if you love the Necro like we all do then by all means go Condi as the damage is decent and it is fun and right up your alley with "dots’ and such. Staff and Scepter/Focus great options and the Scepter auto is pretty sweet for loading them up!
Necro is above all else different and FUN, so stick with it mate, it will even out.

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Posted by: kiki.6250

kiki.6250

Btw these argues are so kittening, played few mmos and never saw something so gross as is on this forums. As a quite new player, im not super rich and i would love to have some tips what gear is good way to go, mostly i just see dumb argues, meta theories, antimeta theories, flames. What the hell.
@Nemesis – where are your builds? I tended to trust in you a bit, but its over month from first video, and still no build?
And to the topic – reaper feels really strong, i run full zerker with valkyrie trinkets, allways last to die in HoT areas and indeed hits as truck. Just feels very crippled as theres no viable ranged option. And yes engi seemed allways ranged class, but elite engi spec scraper is not.

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Posted by: kiki.6250

kiki.6250

Why they just dont make their own web and guides there, avoiding this bs insults and crap. And even stating that something is meta, best, in game with so many classes and playstyles possible, seems pretty bold. Might work in broken dungeons which just fade out and rot, and i sincerely hope that raids will be different.
God bless Wolfineer(oh yea still considering engi my main, reaper seems strong, but i find it boring), if theres some others, i dont know.

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

I don’t know if the new Fractal achievements help amd many more ppl play Fractals, but last 3 days nobody kicked me from a party, no matter my build.

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Posted by: Darwec.3784

Darwec.3784

Just a few observations I’ve made in the past few days: There is a much heavier focus on fractals rather than dungeons now in terms of instanced content. In fractals, even with the new changes, necros are still likely the worst class in the game in terms of DPS and Utility, but they do have a little of both now.

Condi damage is now acceptable in groups, and condi necro seems to do more DPS than berserk dagger/x necro. More over, condi necro can more safely use corrosive poison cloud (since you can transfer it off and not end up with weakness and nerfing yourself) giving you access to one of the best projectile destorys in the game. Plague gives you a fantastic blind field. Adding in reaper and well of darkness situation-ally gives you way more blind fields than is probably necessary. Vampiric presence, although not a SUPER strong trait, gives something to the party, and list rites has helped out quite a bit when things were going badly and people got downed. So necros are KIND OF useful if played well and everyone knows their roles in a party.

BUT, still the worst. Necro still does less power damage than every other class in the game. Necro still does less Condi damage than ranger, engi, guard. Even though necro has some utility now, Guardians can bring projectile reflects/destory and also bring agis and higher damage. Mesmers can bring projectile destory, portals, invisibility, so much quickness. Thieves and eles can bring blinds with more damage than necros, and thieves bring stealth.

So are they viable? Kind of. As long as you’re running a good build and not brining something silly like…minions? You will still be useful and not ruin a party. But there will ALWAYS be a better class that COULD have been brought.

For reference this is the build I run in pve, http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRtG2JNiQnNYzNg1NA/NYxYwmSBxgXQ8OcIeEj+ZBgDAA-TBSCABMcSAgW5nV7HAgFEKr/xZ1fq4JAUmSQSBAzaA-e

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Posted by: Zhe Carp.5293

Zhe Carp.5293

Necro is, and has always been, viable.

Saying any other profession will ALWAYS be better than bringing a necro is complete BS of the ignorant.

Bring the right build with the right gear to the right fight, and you’ll do just as well as any other profession. If not better.. Same goes for them, though. It’s not as necro is the only profession that is required to swap.

It’s a bit expensive, but having a set or three ready in your inventory to suite to different fights, is the best way to play this game.

And if that’s not for you, then just play what you wanna play and how you wanna play it. In the end, it makes no sense to make a character and choose the profession and build based on what others tell you to pick if you don’t even like playing it in general or in that way.

(edited by Zhe Carp.5293)

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Posted by: Zeppelin.6832

Zeppelin.6832

I looked at the reaper playstyle and it is definitely nothing for me, I prefer atleast 500 range between me and the boss. I read a few guides in the past couple hours but almost all seemed focus on melee. I am still looking for a solid pure ranged build, condi would be ok since I personally liked dots, power would be great too, personally I believe a build with sinister/rampagers would suit me best. I would be interested if there are any of those around currently, and where I can find them.

I am personally not a great fan of Zerkers since it tends to get me killed and has more counterplays, but i can definitely see its value for solo content and bosses that favor bursting sustained damage.

For purely PvE, ranged is inferior to melee on practically every class… with the only exception being elementalists with staff. And honestly, even if you’re playing a staff elementalists, you should still be in mostly melee range.

Two big reasons… the most obvious is that for nearly every class, melee weapons hit harder and cleave, and most range weapons do not. And more importantly, if you’re more than 500 yards away from your teammates, you can’t get their buffs. That’s a huge loss in DPS.

GW2 thinks it’s different, but it still has the same mechanics as every other MMO. DPS wins, and not maximizing your DPS is selling both yourself and your group short.

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Posted by: Guanglai Kangyi.4318

Guanglai Kangyi.4318

This thread, please.

Reaper is good DPS. Maybe even top DPS. And being a glassy staff ele with 10k health isn’t so much fun in high Fractals and probably not raids either.

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Posted by: Darwec.3784

Darwec.3784

This thread, please.

Reaper is good DPS. Maybe even top DPS. And being a glassy staff ele with 10k health isn’t so much fun in high Fractals and probably not raids either.

You’re going to have to back that up with numbers.

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Posted by: Exos.3472

Exos.3472

The problem with the reaper is that gear stats are never distributed to optimize our dps.

- trinkets do not have a pure valkyrie stat, so we can’t stack the wurm’s rune +7% ferocity from vitaly passive as massively as in pvp. [250% critical damage in pvp]

- there is no Power/Toughness/Ferocity with major Power stat, making Cavalier a dps loss. that’s really bad because otherwise death magic (14% toughness converted in power when in shroud) would go wild with furious sharpening stones (100 toughness & +10% toughness converted into ferocity)

I was having fun with my duumfire reaper :
- zerk armor + scholar runes
- sinister trinkets

I decided to switch death perception for duumfire since sinister gave me enough precision with the new reaper trait. Also Worth saying the precision buff is active in AND out of shroud, so its cool.

On exotic armor / weapons & ascended trinkets i could get around 1.7k to 2k ticks of continuous burn and a burst of 1k poison from my spin2win. If i added the raw damage i would get to 8k dps per target, which I thought was respectable.

Then I discussed my results my a friend using a Sinister Engi.

And I cried… and cried… (20k dps)

PS : I believe necromancer’s selling point has always been its survival and still is. The melee version makes sense in high density opponents getting killed and usually outlasts any other melee professions when it comes to facetanking while wearing no defensive stats. This of course only applies to open pve, since in pvp a melee necromancer is a mesmer’s fav target to moa…

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Posted by: Darwec.3784

Darwec.3784

The problem with the reaper is that gear stats are never distributed to optimize our dps.

- trinkets do not have a pure valkyrie stat, so we can’t stack the wurm’s rune +7% ferocity from vitaly passive as massively as in pvp. [250% critical damage in pvp]

- there is no Power/Toughness/Ferocity with major Power stat, making Cavalier a dps loss. that’s really bad because otherwise death magic (14% toughness converted in power when in shroud) would go wild with furious sharpening stones (100 toughness & +10% toughness converted into ferocity)

I was having fun with my duumfire reaper :
- zerk armor + scholar runes
- sinister trinkets

I decided to switch death perception for duumfire since sinister gave me enough precision with the new reaper trait. Also Worth saying the precision buff is active in AND out of shroud, so its cool.

On exotic armor / weapons & ascended trinkets i could get around 1.7k to 2k ticks of continuous burn and a burst of 1k poison from my spin2win. If i added the raw damage i would get to 8k dps per target, which I thought was respectable.

Then I discussed my results my a friend using a Sinister Engi.

And I cried… and cried… (20k dps)

PS : I believe necromancer’s selling point has always been its survival and still is. The melee version makes sense in high density opponents getting killed and usually outlasts any other melee professions when it comes to facetanking while wearing no defensive stats. This of course only applies to open pve, since in pvp a melee necromancer is a mesmer’s fav target to moa…

I’ve had similar discussions where my condi necro would do about..10 ish k? So it still falls short by far on damage. My problem with Reaper and “melee” necro builds is the lack of utility, which more what parties i am in complain about rather than DPS. Necro’s, surprisingly, have some unselfish utilities and traits now, so i feel REQUIRED to take them, which means reaper is almost automatically out.

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Posted by: Guanglai Kangyi.4318

Guanglai Kangyi.4318

There’s no way to type out math in a way that doesn’t make everyone’s eyes glaze over. I’ve tried in the past and it’s not worth the effort. Just look at it this way:

1) Decimate Defenses is a kittened amount of crit chance boost. That means that a Reaper will probably always have 100% crit chance even in a pug.

2) Reaper self-stacks might really well, again making it self-sufficient in a pug.

3) Flesh Golem and Shadow Fiend together are worth about 1.2k constant DPS and they no longer die.

4) Gravedigger Loop is probably the highest raw coefficients/second option in the game. You are getting 3.0 coeffs every 2 seconds for 1.5 coeffs/second. That’s basically comparable to staff ele with Persisting Flames.

5) Even without Gravedigger, Reaper Shroud is a respectable 2.4 coeffs every 2.1 seconds due to the high attack rate. Most auto-attack chains are sub-1.0/second for damage, i.e. Warrior GS chain is 2.3 coeffs every 2.5 seconds.

So yes, between high stats, high durability (meaning less time lost dodging or defending, or just plain being dead), high skill numbers, and having minions and lifesteal to boot, Reapers hit hard. The only balancing factor that keeps them from being outright dumb is lack of % modifiers (Reaper only has a couple of +5% traits and a +20% under 50% trait, while elementalist has almost double that).

In fact, without banners + spotter (i.e. Reaper has about 20% more crit chance than ele) they break about even while the Reaper is Gravedigging. Without fury, Gravedigger is actually a fair bit more.

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Posted by: Darwec.3784

Darwec.3784

There’s no way to type out math in a way that doesn’t make everyone’s eyes glaze over. I’ve tried in the past and it’s not worth the effort. Just look at it this way:

1) Decimate Defenses is a kittened amount of crit chance boost. That means that a Reaper will probably always have 100% crit chance even in a pug.

2) Reaper self-stacks might really well, again making it self-sufficient in a pug.

3) Flesh Golem and Shadow Fiend together are worth about 1.2k constant DPS and they no longer die.

4) Gravedigger Loop is probably the highest raw coefficients/second option in the game. You are getting 3.0 coeffs every 2 seconds for 1.5 coeffs/second. That’s basically comparable to staff ele with Persisting Flames.

5) Even without Gravedigger, Reaper Shroud is a respectable 2.4 coeffs every 2.1 seconds due to the high attack rate. Most auto-attack chains are sub-1.0/second for damage, i.e. Warrior GS chain is 2.3 coeffs every 2.5 seconds.

So yes, between high stats, high durability (meaning less time lost dodging or defending, or just plain being dead), high skill numbers, and having minions and lifesteal to boot, Reapers hit hard. The only balancing factor that keeps them from being outright dumb is lack of % modifiers (Reaper only has a couple of +5% traits and a +20% under 50% trait, while elementalist has almost double that).

In fact, without banners + spotter (i.e. Reaper has about 20% more crit chance than ele) they break about even while the Reaper is Gravedigging. Without fury, Gravedigger is actually a fair bit more.

Problems with your assumptions: you can hit close to 100% crit without decimate defenses. IF you’re doing dongunes without a phalanx warrior, then yes, reaper is amazing, but I personally am never in that situation, so reaper might is poor. Grave digger is very high dps, that is correct, BUT reaper shroud is surprisingly bad, its actually attack rate is much lower than the listed in the tool tip (due to after cast) so reaper shroud even with traits is lower DPS than dagger auto attack.

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

If they want Necromancer to be a res-bot, it needs a modifier that boosts dps after reviving.

I ran a full Sinister-Mad King shout condition build and it was not great. Switched to zerker-scholar shout might. Later wished I had just stuck with zerker-scholar mm.

Edit: There are a number of PvE mobs with powerful AoE that seem to bypass the point of Shroud by being difficult to anticipate. Full dps builds are very squishy when face tanking an exploding mob. Greatsword requires very close range play where all of the visual effects can hide cues.

I plan to run the old Soldier-Hoelbrak armor on various builds to see how it performs. Rabid-Torment was fair. Almost anything works with MM but minions have zero group utility and do not scale with allies.

(edited by Anchoku.8142)

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Posted by: Zhe Carp.5293

Zhe Carp.5293

On exotic armor / weapons & ascended trinkets i could get around 1.7k to 2k ticks of continuous burn and a burst of 1k poison from my spin2win. If i added the raw damage i would get to 8k dps per target, which I thought was respectable.

Then I discussed my results my a friend using a Sinister Engi.

And I cried… and cried… (20k dps)

20k huh, did he back that up with proof or did you just take his word for it? How long was the fight, 10 seconds? Do you know what 20k “sustained” dps is?

(edited by Zhe Carp.5293)

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Posted by: Khristophoros.7194

Khristophoros.7194

I noticed you said you like ranged DPS.

Ok here’s the thing. Shroud builds can do high DPS at range (but take note that shroud 1 does less damage if you are more than 600 range away) but you need a way to build up life force. Axe only builds it with #2. For sustained life force gain the best weapon setup is dagger/warhorn. But you don’t like melee…

For ranged life force gain, staff is very good but the DPS sucks so you’re kinda shooting yourself in the foot because you’re avoiding using dagger.

Axe DPS is not terrible, but it’s lower than dagger or shroud and it doesn’t build life force very quickly.

I mean honestly the optimal necro builds involve melee somehow.

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Posted by: BoogerSammich.7189

BoogerSammich.7189

^^This.
Trying to shoehorn ranged into your reaper build isn’t playing to the class design.
On a side note, i really wish axe didn’t suck lol.
Tired of carrying a dagger…

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Posted by: Guanglai Kangyi.4318

Guanglai Kangyi.4318

There’s no way to type out math in a way that doesn’t make everyone’s eyes glaze over. I’ve tried in the past and it’s not worth the effort. Just look at it this way:

1) Decimate Defenses is a kittened amount of crit chance boost. That means that a Reaper will probably always have 100% crit chance even in a pug.

2) Reaper self-stacks might really well, again making it self-sufficient in a pug.

3) Flesh Golem and Shadow Fiend together are worth about 1.2k constant DPS and they no longer die.

4) Gravedigger Loop is probably the highest raw coefficients/second option in the game. You are getting 3.0 coeffs every 2 seconds for 1.5 coeffs/second. That’s basically comparable to staff ele with Persisting Flames.

5) Even without Gravedigger, Reaper Shroud is a respectable 2.4 coeffs every 2.1 seconds due to the high attack rate. Most auto-attack chains are sub-1.0/second for damage, i.e. Warrior GS chain is 2.3 coeffs every 2.5 seconds.

So yes, between high stats, high durability (meaning less time lost dodging or defending, or just plain being dead), high skill numbers, and having minions and lifesteal to boot, Reapers hit hard. The only balancing factor that keeps them from being outright dumb is lack of % modifiers (Reaper only has a couple of +5% traits and a +20% under 50% trait, while elementalist has almost double that).

In fact, without banners + spotter (i.e. Reaper has about 20% more crit chance than ele) they break about even while the Reaper is Gravedigging. Without fury, Gravedigger is actually a fair bit more.

Problems with your assumptions: you can hit close to 100% crit without decimate defenses. IF you’re doing dongunes without a phalanx warrior, then yes, reaper is amazing, but I personally am never in that situation, so reaper might is poor. Grave digger is very high dps, that is correct, BUT reaper shroud is surprisingly bad, its actually attack rate is much lower than the listed in the tool tip (due to after cast) so reaper shroud even with traits is lower DPS than dagger auto attack.

It’s actually almost identical. Shroud scales off your equipped weapon damage and 2H weapons have 10% more damage than 1H. So while dagger has a slightly higher coefficient (1.33/second) Reaper Shroud has higher effective power. Dagger does deal slightly more overall but unless you’re already maxed on might it’s not really worth the weapon swap and potentially being unable to switch back to GS in time once the target hits 50%.

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Posted by: Darwec.3784

Darwec.3784

It’s actually almost identical. Shroud scales off your equipped weapon damage and 2H weapons have 10% more damage than 1H. So while dagger has a slightly higher coefficient (1.33/second) Reaper Shroud has higher effective power. Dagger does deal slightly more overall but unless you’re already maxed on might it’s not really worth the weapon swap and potentially being unable to switch back to GS in time once the target hits 50%.

I think I’m misunderstanding. My argument is that you should stay dagger/warhorn until 50% then swap to gs and spam grave digger. There should be no real weapon swapping. At best, you play the old dagger/x method where you camp dagger/warhorn and drop into deathshroud to use the #5 skill. Once target is below 50% hp, swap into gs and spam grave digger.

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Posted by: Warscythes.9307

Warscythes.9307

Why use dagger/warhorn at all? I thought we math’d it out GS auto is similar dps to dagger dps. So stick to GS and switch to RS when you need it and have the second weapon set to be ranged weapon for melee disconnects.

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Posted by: Darwec.3784

Darwec.3784

Why use dagger/warhorn at all? I thought we math’d it out GS auto is similar dps to dagger dps. So stick to GS and switch to RS when you need it and have the second weapon set to be ranged weapon for melee disconnects.

Dagger and GS auto attack do roughly the same damage, but dagger/warhorn gives the added damage from warhorn so it should end up being more total damage, correct?

IGNORE MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS.

(edited by Darwec.3784)

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

Why use dagger/warhorn at all? I thought we math’d it out GS auto is similar dps to dagger dps. So stick to GS and switch to RS when you need it and have the second weapon set to be ranged weapon for melee disconnects.

Dagger and GS auto attack do roughly the same damage, but dagger/warhorn gives the added damage from warhorn so it should end up being more total damage, correct?

IGNORE MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS.

GS#4 > Warhorn#5

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Posted by: Darwec.3784

Darwec.3784

Why use dagger/warhorn at all? I thought we math’d it out GS auto is similar dps to dagger dps. So stick to GS and switch to RS when you need it and have the second weapon set to be ranged weapon for melee disconnects.

Dagger and GS auto attack do roughly the same damage, but dagger/warhorn gives the added damage from warhorn so it should end up being more total damage, correct?

IGNORE MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS.

GS#4 > Warhorn#5

Yeah, I rechecked a lot of my assumptions and figured out I was wrong about a lot of things. So I’m sorry about earlier. Reaper isn’t as bad as I thought it was.