Guild Wars 2

If we take it as a given that the Dhuumfire + Terror build is going to be nerfed, then the question to be asked is how to do that without ruining pure condition builds, which a nerf to Terror would do.

But simply nerfing Dhuumfire isn’t really an option either. It already matches a 10-point Engineer trait. Just nerfing it would just make hybrid builds that don’t run Terror suck.

So, let’s take a step back and try to think about what Dhuumfire is supposed to be: it’s a Grandmaster trait in a line that gives Power and Condition Duration. It applies a high-base-damage condition. Ok, so it’s for hybrid builds, or for power builds who want to contribute some condi damage, and it uses burning because burning is a decent threat even without much Condition Damage.

The problem with the way it’s setup now is it doesn’t actually help hybrid/power builds apply condi pressure: it just increases their burst. But that isn’t what hybrid builds should be about. If you want high burst, you should be going full power, whereas condition damage builds should have the best pressure. Hybrids should be somewhere in between, not the best of both worlds.

Getting to the point, I think if Dhuumfire were changed to give the Necro a chance to apply stacks of Torment with each hit, it could accomplish this goal while returning the Necro’s play pattern to attrition.

Torment is perfect for this for a number of reasons:

1) It has relatively high base damage: 150% of a bleed when your target’s moving.

2) Torment is a very rare condition, so hybrid builds won’t have to worry about their stacks being ignored in group situations (or, worse, knocking out stacks from people with higher condition damage). Even two Necros with Dhuumfire won’t normally be able to hit the Torment cap.

3) Torment stacks up (rather than stacking duration) so a hyrbid build that can stay in the fight longer will apply more pressure. This means you can still go glass if you want heavier damage, but it can also make sense to go more defensive for better damage over time.

4) A quick eyeball of the formulas tells me that with no condition damage, Torment matches Burning’s damage at about 5 stacks (when the target is moving). This means a Dhuumfire tuned so that 5+ stacks is possible as the fight progresses would actually have more potential damage than the current iteration of Dhuumfire, especially if it didn’t have to have an ICD. This would make such a change more of a rebalancing than a nerf.

5) It has built-in counterplay (“don’t move”), so you don’t necessarily need a build perfectly designed to deal with Dhuumfire Necros in order to play against them. This is good for Necros because it lowers the incidence of QQ and gives us more opportunity to showcase our individual skill, rather than pressing DS+3+5 and watching the world burn.

Here’s how I’ve imagined the trait:

Dhuumfire. 33% chance to apply a 5-second stack of Torment on hit. No internal cooldown.

The percentage and duration could be raised or lowered to tune this properly (I picked those numbers basically out of the blue), but I think it’s important for the stacks to apply on hit, rather than on crit, because a hybrid build or a tankier build that wants 30 in Spite may not have great crit chance and I don’t like the idea of restricting this trait to 30/30/x/x/x builds.

Anyway, thoughts?

(This has been discussed in other threads but I think it deserves a thread of its own.)

they should just replace dhuumfire with something else like extra bleed per hit then it wouldn’t stack so well and wouldn’t do so lolop dmg.

terror builds don’t need any extra dmg.

Copy of my recent post from this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Quit-crying-and-read/2410967

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TL;DR: Although replacing Dhuumfire burning with Torment is possible, it creates its own set of prickly issues to deal with. My suggestion is to either 1) reduce Dhuumfire proc from 4 sec to 3 sec, or 2) Move Dhuumfire from a Spite GM to a Blood GM slot.

flow.6043:

vicious.5683:

You can replace burning with some more bleeds and it’ll be the same.

…would actually overnerf the necro (damage wise). Part of the problem is the extra cleansing spot that burning is covering. So replacing it with bleeding would absolutley not be the same.
It has been suggested many times already, but here it is again: burning ->torment.

Agree that replacing burning with bleeds would be bad.

But replacing burning with Torment would probably be even worse due to:
1) the much lower damage multiplier for torment
2) loss of a condition type
3) probably a much shorter range
4) significant change in dynamics.

1) The formula for burning damage is:
(0.25 * Condition Damage) + (4 * Level) + 8 damage per second

The formula for Torment damage is:
(0.0375 * Condition Damage + 31.875) per stack per second

At 1000 condition damage:
- Burning does 578 per sec
- Torment does 69.4 per sec

That is, Torment does only 12% the damage of burning per sec.

So, replacing Dhuumfire (4 sec burn) with Torment would require roughly 8 stacks of Torment to be equivalent to burning. Thus, to decrease that damage would require less stacks. For example, 5 stacks would do 347 per sec, or 60% of the current burning damage per sec, which might be reasonable.

However, if the target is moving, then Torment is applied twice per sec, so now the damage would be 347*2=694 per sec, which is higher than burning. So, tuning the number of stacks would be very tricky to balance.

2) Removing burning removes another condition type, and cleansing Torment from DS’s Tainted Shackles would now also cleanse the Torment from this GM trait.

3) Burning via Dhuumfire has the range of the weapon being used. On the other hand, Tainted Shackles has a limited range of only 600. Would it be reasonable to allow Torment to apply all the way to 1200 (especially when multiplied with Epidemic)? What would that do to a zerg? It would also greatly reduce the effectiveness of kiting a necro, but I don’t know if ANet would want necros to have that kind of control at that range.

4) Having that kind of nearly constant CC on targets via a proc (rather than via a weapon’s skill, such as mesmer Illusionary Counter) is probably not the intent of ANet. Coupled with Epidemic it probably would be too much pressure. (On the other hand, has anyone seriously complained about the synergy of Dhuumfire burning and Epidemic?)

My suggestion is to instead either:
1) Reduce Dhuumfire proc from 4 sec to 3 sec, or
2) Move Dhuumfire from a Spite GM to a Blood GM slot.

1) Since Dhuumfire is 30pts into spite, its duration is always a minimum of 4*1.3=5.2 sec. Therefore, (again using 1000 cond dmg), total burning damage would be 578*5=2890.

Reducing from 4 sec to 3 sec results in an 3*1.3=3.9 sec of burning, or 3*578=1734 or 4*578=2312 damage. So, roughly a 30% reduction in damage over the length of the proc.

2) Moving Dhuumfire to a Blood GM (call it “Boiling Blood”!) removes the automatic 30% cond duration from Spite. It also rewards tankier builds rather than adding more reward to glass cannons, as it does now. This is clearly a far more radical change, but ANet can’t have it both ways: they can’t want us to be an attrition class and yet position traits which create a lopsided bonus to glass cannons.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

But replacing burning with Torment would probably be even worse due to:
1) the much lower damage multiplier for torment
2) loss of a condition type
3) probably a much shorter range
4) significant change in dynamics.

1) Your calculations don’t take into account that Torment deals damage twice per second when the target is moving. So if a stack of Torment deals ~12% the damage of a stack of Burning while the target is standing still, it also deals ~24% when they’re moving (and they’ll mostly be moving). It’s good for Torment to deal less damage (remember, the idea is to shift the Necro back to attrition), but it doesn’t deal so much less damage that it’s wholly ignorable.

2) We barely have Torment as it stands (10 second duration on a 40-second cooldown). Near-100% Torment uptime across potentially multiple targets is arguably more difficult to cleanse off than 52% Burning uptime for one target. It also makes condition cleansing more of a soft counter than a hard counter to our damage, and soft counters are better game design. It both means that more builds can play against you, and you also don’t get shut down as hard when playing against builds which counter you.

3) Considering 1200 is outside the range at which the Necro is a major kill-threat, I don’t see a huge problem in allowing us to apply a few stacks of torment at that range. It’s SUPPOSED to be hard to kite Necros, harder than where it currently is. Re-tuning us to be more difficult to escape from is where Anet should be taking the profession.

4) On-proc CC is not unprecedented. Elementalists with Glyph of Elemental Power can have cripple or chill on-hit basically all the time. I know Eles don’t really run that skill, but it’s still an example of something Anet is ok with. That said, Torment isn’t even true Crowd Control; it’s more “Crowd Suggestion.”

The danger, I think, with nerfing Dhuumfire and dropping it to a lower point is that you make Burning + Terror builds potentially tankier than they are now. So we’d still have high burst, but then we’d be even more difficult to kill. A 2- or 3-second Burn also wouldn’t feel as good to apply, I think.

Blaine Tog.8304:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

But replacing burning with Torment would probably be even worse due to:
1) the much lower damage multiplier for torment
2) loss of a condition type
3) probably a much shorter range
4) significant change in dynamics.

1) Your calculations don’t take into account that Torment deals damage twice per second when the target is moving. …..

2) We barely have Torment as it stands (10 second duration on a 40-second cooldown). Near-100% Torment uptime across potentially multiple targets is arguably more difficult to cleanse off than 52% Burning uptime for one target. It also makes condition cleansing more of a soft counter than a hard counter to our damage, and soft counters are better game design. It both means that more builds can play against you, and you also don’t get shut down as hard when playing against builds which counter you.

3) Considering 1200 is outside the range at which the Necro is a major kill-threat, I don’t see a huge problem in allowing us to apply a few stacks of torment at that range. It’s SUPPOSED to be hard to kite Necros, harder than where it currently is. Re-tuning us to be more difficult to escape from is where Anet should be taking the profession.

4) On-proc CC is not unprecedented. Elementalists with Glyph of Elemental Power can have cripple or chill on-hit basically all the time. I know Eles don’t really run that skill, but it’s still an example of something Anet is ok with. That said, Torment isn’t even true Crowd Control; it’s more “Crowd Suggestion.”

The danger, I think, with nerfing Dhuumfire and dropping it to a lower point is that you make Burning + Terror builds potentially tankier than they are now. So we’d still have high burst, but then we’d be even more difficult to kill. A 2- or 3-second Burn also wouldn’t feel as good to apply, I think.

1) On the contrary, I did specifically address that situation.

2) I agree the duplication of Torment stacks from Tainted Shackles and a Torment-based Dhuumfire is a minor issue. I mention it for completeness.

3) Again, I mention it for completeness. I’m just pondering possible unintended consequences.

4) The “on-proc” of Dhuumfire is not an issue, it is whether it result sin unintended consequences if the proc is Torment. As I stated in a counterpoint to my own question: On the other hand, has anyone seriously complained about the synergy of Dhuumfire burning and Epidemic?

The danger, I think, with nerfing Dhuumfire and dropping it to a lower point is that you make Burning + Terror builds potentially tankier than they are now. So we’d still have high burst, but then we’d be even more difficult to kill. A 2- or 3-second Burn also wouldn’t feel as good to apply, I think.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by "nerfing Dhuumfire and dropping it to a lower point is that you make Burning + Terror builds potentially tankier than they are now. ". What does “lower point” mean?

As to the idea of reducing the length of the Dhuumfire burning from 4 to 3 sec, well yes, it wouldn’t “feel as good”. I agree. In addition, reducing the duration unfortunately nerfs all Dhuumfire builds, not just Dhuumfire + Terror builds. But it seems like the least radical kind of change which Anet could try, if indeed Dhuumfire needs to be changed at all.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

1) On the contrary, I did specifically address that situation.

So you did. Sorry, it’s early, I was skimming, and you addressed it at the end of the point, after the mathy-stuff.

It might be a liiiittle tricky to tune, but there are two easy levers to use: proc rate and duration. This means Anet has lots of control over how many stacks they want it to generate, which means it shouldn’t be too hard to get there. This is also why I suggested it should be on-hit: to reduce the difference between ideal and average scenarios. If it were on-crit, then they would need to make it useful for low-crit builds while not insane for high-crit builds, which is very difficult indeed. With on-hit builds, there is much less variance, leaving them with mostly just high and low condition damage to test for player variables.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

4) The “on-proc” of Dhuumfire is not an issue, it is whether it result sin unintended consequences if the proc is Torment. As I stated in a counterpoint to my own question: On the other hand, has anyone seriously complained about the synergy of Dhuumfire burning and Epidemic?

People don’t complain about Epi+Burning because Epidemic is hard to land these days so many Necros don’t bother packing it. Off the cuff, I don’t see Epidemic breaking Torment any worse than it breaks Bleeds (which can easily hit 25 stacks in a group scenario), but this would be something for Anet to test. The mere possibility that Epidemic might be too much depending on how the trait is tuned doesn’t mean the idea shouldn’t be tested.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

I’m not quite sure what you mean by "nerfing Dhuumfire and dropping it to a lower point is that you make Burning + Terror builds potentially tankier than they are now. ". What does “lower point” mean?

Making it a Major trait instead of a Grandmaster.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

As to the idea of reducing the length of the Dhuumfire burning from 4 to 3 sec, well yes, it wouldn’t “feel as good”. I agree. In addition, reducing the duration unfortunately nerfs all Dhuumfire builds, not just Dhuumfire + Terror builds. But it seems like the least radical kind of change which Anet could try, if indeed Dhuumfire needs to be changed at all.

There are always a lot of ways to nerf builds if they need to come down, but as I said in the first post, if Dhuumfire builds are fine, Terror builds are fine, and only Dhuumfire + Terror builds are not fine, then Anet should endeavor to fix Dhuumfire + Terror in a way that has as little collateral damage to the other builds as possible.

Nerf Dhuumfire and every terror build will move to SR tree for more survivability.
Then the hybrid builds using Dhuumfire will be nerfed to the ground without any decent replacement for what burning brings to the table.

Move terror to GM then you have to be glassy to take Dhuumfire and terror which its ok: high damage and low survivability

Blaine Tog.8304:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

I’m not quite sure what you mean by "nerfing Dhuumfire and dropping it to a lower point is that you make Burning + Terror builds potentially tankier than they are now. ". What does “lower point” mean?

Making it a Major trait instead of a Grandmaster.

Ah, ok. But I did not make such a proposal. My alternate proposal was to move it from a Spite GM trait to a Blood GM trait. The idea being that such a Terror+Dhuumfire build would now be 0/20/0/30/20, which would cause a reduction of 300 power, loss of traits like AxeTraining and loss of 30% cond duration, which could be a big impact on Terror ticks. As I stated, I consider this a radical proposal.

Blaine Tog.8304:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

As to the idea of reducing the length of the Dhuumfire burning from 4 to 3 sec, well yes, it wouldn’t “feel as good”. I agree. In addition, reducing the duration unfortunately nerfs all Dhuumfire builds, not just Dhuumfire + Terror builds. But it seems like the least radical kind of change which Anet could try, if indeed Dhuumfire needs to be changed at all.

There are always a lot of ways to nerf builds if they need to come down, but as I said in the first post, if Dhuumfire builds are fine, Terror builds are fine, and only Dhuumfire + Terror builds are not fine, then Anet should endeavor to fix Dhuumfire + Terror in a way that has as little collateral damage to the other builds as possible.

“then Anet should endeavor to fix Dhuumfire + Terror in a way that has as little collateral damage to the other builds as possible”.

Agree wholeheartedly.

I’m just not sure that changing Dhuumfire from one condition type to another really addresses this specific situation (Dhuumfire + Terror) without creating other collateral damage.

Your proposal “Dhuumfire. 33% chance to apply a 5-second stack of Torment on hit. No internal cooldown” would really alter builds due to no required crit chance. As you say, that might be a good thing. But also, since Torment doubles (ticks twice per sec) when the target moves, doesn’t this change actually improve Terror builds, since a Feared target will be moving?

To be clear, I don’t really have a dog in this fight as long as we don’t get nerf-batted back to pre-Dhuumfire; in fact, I’m fine of they leave Dhuumfire as it is now.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Ah, ok. But I did not make such a proposal. My alternate proposal was to move it from a Spite GM trait to a Blood GM trait. The idea being that such a Terror+Dhuumfire build would now be 0/20/0/30/20, which would cause a reduction of 300 power, loss of traits like AxeTraining and loss of 30% cond duration, which could be a big impact on Terror ticks. As I stated, I consider this a radical proposal.

Ah, I see. I’m not sure gating Dhuumfire by placing it in a superflous stat line helps the Necro, to be honest. Then you’d just so almost nobody taking it. It’s also really weird that the Vitality+Healing Power tree should be so central to the ideal condi burst build.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

“then Anet should endeavor to fix Dhuumfire + Terror in a way that has as little collateral damage to the other builds as possible”.

Agree wholeheartedly.

I’m just not sure that changing Dhuumfire from one condition type to another really addresses this specific situation (Dhuumfire + Terror) without creating other collateral damage.

Fair enough, though the difference is, I think, in the ramp-up. Necromancer glass builds having damage is a good thing, but their damage should still be based around attrition. Torment will take some time to stack up, unlike Burning which fires on full cylinders the moment the fight starts.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Your proposal “Dhuumfire. 33% chance to apply a 5-second stack of Torment on hit. No internal cooldown” would really alter builds due to no required crit chance. As you say, that might be a good thing. But also, since Torment doubles (ticks twice per sec) when the target moves, doesn’t this change actually improve Terror builds, since a Feared target will be moving?

It potentially improves their damage in the long run if they play well while taking away their instant burst potential. The problem with the 30/30/10 build is really just that it deals too much of its damage before foes have a fair chance to play against it with condition cleanses. Give them more time and the fight paradigm becomes more healthy.

here is another idea.

Change Dhumfire to:
100% chance to inflict burning for 5 seconds when a channeled skill is used. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

This would benefit to axe and dagger, weapons used in hybrid builds and terror builds will only proc it each 40 secs on DS#4.

This would reduce the bursting on terror without nerfing any other build.

Any thoughts?

vicious.5683:

here is another idea.

Change Dhumfire to:
100% chance to inflict burning for 5 seconds when a channeled skill is used. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

This would benefit to axe and dagger, weapons used in hybrid builds and terror builds will only proc it each 40 secs on DS#4.

This would reduce the bursting on terror without nerfing any other build.

Any thoughts?

That’s an interesting idea, but a couple of thoughts:
1) Staff/scepter, used for condition builds, would lose out entirely on the burning condition
2) Dagger and axe2 are the “burstiest” damage we have now, so would this only make us “burstier”?

vicious.5683:

here is another idea.

Change Dhumfire to:
100% chance to inflict burning for 5 seconds when a channeled skill is used. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

This would benefit to axe and dagger, weapons used in hybrid builds and terror builds will only proc it each 40 secs on DS#4.

This would reduce the bursting on terror without nerfing any other build.

Any thoughts?

Ooo, that is an interesting thought. I don’t know if it sufficiently gates our burst, but it would make it difficult to add Burning to the standard condi-stacking rotation. We also couldn’t apply burning from further than 600 units away, making staying at range another way to counterplay this.

Wait, I have an idea! What if we apply burning for 4 seconds on the last tick of channels, with no internal cooldown? This makes it even harder to get your burning proc off, but if you don’t get interrupted, it’s potentially devastating. It also moves Dhuumfire away from directly competing with the Engi burn trait. Maybe it could only apply a 1- or 2-second burn with DS#4…

TheAgedGnome.7520:

1) Staff/scepter, used for condition builds, would lose out entirely on the burning condition
2) Dagger and axe2 are the “burstiest” damage we have now, so would this only make us “burstier”?

1) that’s the idea, to not combo burning+terror, because that’s why all ppl are complaining. you can have burning on Life Transfer anyway
2)Axe and dagger 2 are bursting but if you take Dhuumfire, you can’t take Close to Death, which is a major component of the bursting in pure power builds.

I have concerns about the nerfing/gating of base abilities individually to prevent outlier combos….if condition A and condition B are too powerful together then put them on a common/shared cooldown…..do NOT nerf them individually nor make them individually difficult to use.
(posted in another thread by mistake).

Oldbugga.7029:

I have concerns about the nerfing/gating of base abilities individually to prevent outlier combos….if condition A and condition B are too powerful together then put them on a common/shared cooldown…..do NOT nerf them individually nor make them individually difficult to use.
(posted in another thread by mistake).

So you’re saying to fix the problem by causing both Terror and Dhuumfire to proc Dhuumfire’s internal cooldown? Foes can be either burning or take Terror damage but not both at the same time?

You know that ANet would manage to screw that up so that ANY burning caused by the necro would make it so Terror couldn’t proc (such as a friendly Guardian’s Virtue of Justice or a Charrzoka).

While I do feel that changing it to Torment would be good, I think that there might be a better way to take it. What if a necro with the trait (would need to be renamed) took less damage from foes with conditions on them? That would still play to the Condition Duration the line gives us, boost the attrition capabilities of necros, and also provide an interesting choice. Do I go all-out on offense, or do I want to make sure I survive the fight?

Dhuumfire is a 30 trait. They cant make it worse than it currently is

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You know that ANet would manage to screw that up so that ANY burning caused by the necro would make it so Terror couldn’t proc (such as a friendly Guardian’s Virtue of Justice or a Charrzoka).

You know, I wish they could just literally prevent us from taking two traits at the same time. Like, equip Dhuumfire withTerror equipped, and vice versa.

vicious.5683:

here is another idea.

Change Dhumfire to:
100% chance to inflict burning for 5 seconds when a channeled skill is used. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

This would benefit to axe and dagger, weapons used in hybrid builds and terror builds will only proc it each 40 secs on DS#4.

This would reduce the bursting on terror without nerfing any other build.

Any thoughts?

Very good idea there. I think this would be a fair solution.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You know that ANet would manage to screw that up so that ANY burning caused by the necro would make it so Terror couldn’t proc (such as a friendly Guardian’s Virtue of Justice or a Charrzoka).

You know, I wish they could just literally prevent us from taking two traits at the same time. Like, equip Dhuumfire withTerror equipped, and vice versa.

They can, by making both traits grandmaster in the same line. [/tempting fate]

Blaine Tog.8304:

Oldbugga.7029:

I have concerns about the nerfing/gating of base abilities individually to prevent outlier combos….if condition A and condition B are too powerful together then put them on a common/shared cooldown…..do NOT nerf them individually nor make them individually difficult to use.
(posted in another thread by mistake).

So you’re saying to fix the problem by causing both Terror and Dhuumfire to proc Dhuumfire’s internal cooldown? Foes can be either burning or take Terror damage but not both at the same time?

NO. A shared cooldown means if one ability is on cooldown, say fear, then fire can’t proc til the fear duration is over and vice versa. It means you get one or the other at any one time..but you can’t get both at once….like your further post above said.

This may not be the answer but nerfing/restricting the base abilities will just get us back to where we were before….that is the approach that has been used in the past and it left a lot of our abilities very ordinary…(UNLESS you actually used the wierd combos to just get on par with other classes).

The answer lies in addressing the combination itself…not the individual abilities when used standalone.

Edit: lol filter….“proc” followed by “until”..lol

Edit 2: Likewise with making them both GM traits. The answer is not to limit us to one or the other in any one build by making them both GMs but to limit them being USED together. Having both in a build would then not lead to OP outcomes from their combination.

Oldbugga.7029:

NO. A shared cooldown means if one ability is on cooldown, say fear, then fire can’t proc til the fear duration is over and vice versa. It means you get one or the other at any one time..but you can’t get both at once….like your further post above said.

We’re on the same page.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

That’s an interesting idea, but a couple of thoughts:
1) Staff/scepter, used for condition builds, would lose out entirely on the burning condition

I want to lose the burning condition, it pressures people into playing a wonky/butchered spec with poor trait synergy just because the GM trait of one tree makes too powerful a combo. The only way to play it is lolburst which I dont enjoy, it takes all the thought/skill out of one of the most difficult to play classes in this game

Condition necro does not need burning

@ the shared proc idea, that would make it more powerful if anything and reduce almost none of the damage, right now 1 condition cleanse will remove both effects, giving them a shared cooldown means that a condition cleanse can remove only one of the two strong conditions, meaning it would be impossible to bait a terror/dhuumfire combo

a solution close to that would be a shared cooldown, dhuumfire cannot proc in 10 seconds following doom, doom cannot be cast 10 seconds after proccind dhuumfire

I doubt anybody would really want that

azuzephyr.7280:

@ the shared proc idea, that would make it more powerful if anything and reduce almost none of the damage, right now 1 condition cleanse will remove both effects, giving them a shared cooldown means that a condition cleanse can remove only one of the two strong conditions, meaning it would be impossible to bait a terror/dhuumfire combo

The idea is basically this: Terror de-activates for 10 seconds if Dhuumfire procs, and Dhuumfire de-activates for 10 seconds if Terror deals damage. Either way, you can only ever hit them with one big damaging condition at a time.

I like the burning very much but don’t need the terror (of course the combination is strong).
I’m also sure a big part of the hole problem are people just not used to fight necros at this point.
And the torment idea would have high chances to either a) increase the synergy with fear (you run) with high stacks or b) be not worth for any spec at all

IMO it would b best to find a way where it’s not possible to use both traits together (even if it would just be the ugly way to write something like “TERROR; doesn’t work if you already use Dhuumfire” into the trait)

Blaine Tog.8304:

azuzephyr.7280:

@ the shared proc idea, that would make it more powerful if anything and reduce almost none of the damage, right now 1 condition cleanse will remove both effects, giving them a shared cooldown means that a condition cleanse can remove only one of the two strong conditions, meaning it would be impossible to bait a terror/dhuumfire combo

The idea is basically this: Terror de-activates for 10 seconds if Dhuumfire procs, and Dhuumfire de-activates for 10 seconds if Terror deals damage. Either way, you can only ever hit them with one big damaging condition at a time.

Net result would be that Terror becomes a trash trait not ever taken with Dhuumfire (you will almost always crit before a fear between cooldowns).

It would definitely work to bring the combo into line, but I think that’s the wrong way to go about it. No other traits in the game fight each other and really, this idea, while it would be effective, just screams poor design.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Net result would be that Terror becomes a trash trait not ever taken with Dhuumfire (you will almost always crit before a fear between cooldowns).

No, net result is you would take Dhuumfire if you were running hybrid and Terror if you wanted a condi build but couldn’t get the best of both worlds… which is what it should be.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It would definitely work to bring the combo into line, but I think that’s the wrong way to go about it. No other traits in the game fight each other and really, this idea, while it would be effective, just screams poor design.

It’s a direct, inelegant way of solving the problem, but elegance is overrated. When you’re fighting some guy in sPvP or in WvW, all you want is for your build to work and for your foe’s build to be balanced and beatable. I’d rather the mechanics be inelegant than broken or passive-aggressive.

I concur with TheAgedGnome. I also advocate reducing the duration of Burning from 4 seconds to 3.

Replacing Burning with Torment makes it a no-go option for Hybrid builds, primarily due to the power scaling. Hybrid builds are not going to have crazy-high amounts of condition damage.

Blaine Tog.8304:

azuzephyr.7280:

@ the shared proc idea, that would make it more powerful if anything and reduce almost none of the damage, right now 1 condition cleanse will remove both effects, giving them a shared cooldown means that a condition cleanse can remove only one of the two strong conditions, meaning it would be impossible to bait a terror/dhuumfire combo

The idea is basically this: Terror de-activates for 10 seconds if Dhuumfire procs, and Dhuumfire de-activates for 10 seconds if Terror deals damage. Either way, you can only ever hit them with one big damaging condition at a time.

That’s really, really wonky. In principle I don’t like the idea of any ability, nevermind a trait, that works antagonistically with other abilities/traits.

What about this? Dhuumfire procs a 3 second burn instead of 4 with an internal cooldown of 12 seconds, and also grants 3 seconds of fury (or 3 stacks of might for 3 seconds).

This keeps the ‘uptime’ of burning down so Terror+burning isn’t as potent and happens less frequently, but also benefits hybrid builds and power builds very nicely.

Fjandi.2516:

vicious.5683:

here is another idea.

Change Dhumfire to:
100% chance to inflict burning for 5 seconds when a channeled skill is used. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

This would benefit to axe and dagger, weapons used in hybrid builds and terror builds will only proc it each 40 secs on DS#4.

This would reduce the bursting on terror without nerfing any other build.

Any thoughts?

Very good idea there. I think this would be a fair solution.

I disagree. Hybrid builds typically run with axe and scepter. Dagger/axe would be more like a power build, which would not run with Dhuumfire anyway. So that change would make it a Grandmaster Trait no one would use.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Fjandi.2516:

vicious.5683:

here is another idea.

Change Dhumfire to:
100% chance to inflict burning for 5 seconds when a channeled skill is used. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

This would benefit to axe and dagger, weapons used in hybrid builds and terror builds will only proc it each 40 secs on DS#4.

This would reduce the bursting on terror without nerfing any other build.

Any thoughts?

Very good idea there. I think this would be a fair solution.

I disagree. Hybrid builds typically run with axe and scepter. Dagger/axe would be more like a power build, which would not run with Dhuumfire anyway. So that change would make it a Grandmaster Trait no one would use.

You’d have it in axe #2 and the idea its to link Dhuumfire to weapons other than scepter staff and oh dagger.

vicious.5683:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Fjandi.2516:

vicious.5683:

here is another idea.

Change Dhumfire to:
100% chance to inflict burning for 5 seconds when a channeled skill is used. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

This would benefit to axe and dagger, weapons used in hybrid builds and terror builds will only proc it each 40 secs on DS#4.

This would reduce the bursting on terror without nerfing any other build.

Any thoughts?

Very good idea there. I think this would be a fair solution.

I disagree. Hybrid builds typically run with axe and scepter. Dagger/axe would be more like a power build, which would not run with Dhuumfire anyway. So that change would make it a Grandmaster Trait no one would use.

You’d have it in axe #2 and the idea its to link Dhuumfire to weapons other than scepter staff and oh dagger.

I would like to think the developers would want to make Dhuumfire an attractive alternative to Close to Death. If it was tagged to channeling attacks, then it would only be attractive to power builds that would use both axe and MH dagger. But those builds don’t run with +condition damage, so they’d still take Close to Death.

Thedenofsin.7340:

vicious.5683:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Fjandi.2516:

vicious.5683:

here is another idea.

Change Dhumfire to:
100% chance to inflict burning for 5 seconds when a channeled skill is used. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

This would benefit to axe and dagger, weapons used in hybrid builds and terror builds will only proc it each 40 secs on DS#4.

This would reduce the bursting on terror without nerfing any other build.

Any thoughts?

Very good idea there. I think this would be a fair solution.

I disagree. Hybrid builds typically run with axe and scepter. Dagger/axe would be more like a power build, which would not run with Dhuumfire anyway. So that change would make it a Grandmaster Trait no one would use.

You’d have it in axe #2 and the idea its to link Dhuumfire to weapons other than scepter staff and oh dagger.

I would like to think the developers would want to make Dhuumfire an attractive alternative to Close to Death. If it was tagged to channeling attacks, then it would only be attractive to power builds that would use both axe and MH dagger. But those builds don’t run with +condition damage, so they’d still take Close to Death.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning

still hits hard with 0 condition damage

with condition damage you can take axe/x + staff or axe/x+ scepter/dagger
so ppl would take it anyway, allowing more build diversity and preventing the terror+burning damage.

but anyway, what’s your idea?