Guild Wars 2

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Whether the topic is PvP or not – you decided to antagonize those who have little experience in PvP, and this is absurd to do so whether you agree with it or not… You literally call them out on their scores and imply that “they have no knowledge of how things work” – and frankly, there has been little reason for most to even have many tournaments played on the board… Or are you going to say that people like Leeto do not have enough experience in TeamQ as well, so can never formulate a decent opinion? I can assure you that though he has played more Solo than TeamQ on GW2score, that he has a better understanding of this game, the class and whatnot then you – granted, he did not partake within this discussion, but I would warn you where you decide to belittle people…

The class is uniformly bad designed – this includes PvP as well… The people you belittle are as entitled to give their opinions or feedback as you are, and if you are not willing to listen to them “because they did not play in the higher end of PvP” you are in the wrong here, and not them…
This is a discussion forum, not a “My rooster is bigger than yours”… If you have had succes with Necromancer in high end PvP – good for you… I know plenty who do, and plenty who had in the past, but discuss with those what is wrong with Necromancer and suddenly they can all wind it up to the same…

Coherrent issues with how the class is designed and how it is played out in PvP gives Necromancers are role within the said gamemode that does not fit the class, does not fit the player and thus aggitates those who play it – sure you can do well, but if you look from it with a broader perspective you will notice why these people are actually complaining

This thread started as a ventilation for Moa, though a respectable Necromancer, he was wrong here – Necromancers are somewhat fine within the gamemode… Are Necromancers fine? , no they are not… far from it…

Besides, these are the forums, not a jolly wacky crew of high-end players to please each other – here you will find a collection of people who are opinionated, like to let their voices be heard and are open about it… It will always stay this way, whether you like it or not…
Complaints are everywhere, and not reserved for Necromancer (I could make millions about Warrior and it’s design), and if you cannot handle those who give their opinion, this is not the place for you…

the thing is.. when you go to the other forums there are more happy posts or posts talking about builds or what they like or posts asking for help against particular classes.

you come to the necro forums its omfg not again….. why did you do this? we are not viable, here are suggestions on how to fix the class. there is way more of this here for a reason instead of “wow this build owns check it out” , or here is a vid of me roaming/pvping here are tips and tricks etc

@ Brandon: cool it. You accuse me of belittling people, for pointing out facts such as how many pvp games have players played. That’s the truth, not belittling, and important information for a topic on necromancers in pvp. But then you try to tell me who you think knows more than I do about the class? That’s not a fact, merely your unsubstantiated opinon, with the intention of trying to ‘put me in my place’. That’s pathetic.

Pointing out who has actually played pvp in a topic about pvp doesn’t say that they can’t speak or add to the discussion, it is just useful information for the readers, and may point to why their points, which they are free to share, may be misguided.

Again, the topic is not whether necromancers fit your ideals from GW1 of what a necromancer should be, but their viability within pvp. That is how I have taken the topic: gg pvp; not gg necromancers aren’t like they were in GW1.

Stop setting up straw men!

1. This forum is for people to have their voices heard whether I like it or not. Come on Brandon, don’t you see how stupid it is to say that? Where in any of my posts have I said people are not entitled to speak? Where? Where? Where? Stop setting up straw men which are easier to knock down than me. Needless to say, everyone can speak, BUT I can also speak in opposition to them. The hypocrisy of your post…

2. You set up a straw man when you say that I’d say Leeto can’t have a decent opinion just because he has few team queue games:

A) I never distinguished said that playing team Q games is more important than solo Q games; that’s your distinction.

B) I never said that people who are not experienced in pvp can’t form a decent opinion. They may strike lucky with their limited experience and say something salient. All I say is that it’s important for viewers of these topics and this forum that a lot of the complaints about necromancers in pvp come from those who don’t play pvp, which is ridiculous.

And finally, as a poster above me has said, these forums are too heavily weighted towards moaners. My opinion, that necromancers can be very strong if played well, and are good in pvp, which I think is correct, is by far in the minority in this forum, and should be heard.

Ive never once claimed im knowledgeable when it comes to PvP. I understand the class at its core and can provide logical reasoning as to why it has issues in PvP. But my personal experience in that gametype is admittedly limited. Leman is one of the few players I trust completely when it comes to necro in PvP. And he has summed things up pretty nicely in this thread. Theres definately a flaw in being a class that is strong or weak depending on uncontrollable factors. I dont think anyone can discredit that. Its probably the main reason most people consider the class weak overall. Thats how i see it at least, as i like to have full control over my effectiveness.

Also when it comes to understanding. Personal experience isnt necessarily needed. Someone that follows the scene and makes an effort to understand the players they are watching to their full potential can often have a lot better understanding than someone who just plays a lot. The only difference is they dont have the personal experience or evidence to back up their claims whether they are right or wrong. Which is why i sometimes find it very amusing when people play the “you have no experience” card.

Narkodx.1472:

Apokriphos.7042:

According to the Q/A response I got, the developers balance the classes using strictly team Pvp. Using this rationale, Necromancers are supposedly most balanced there.

I don’t agree with that assessment or the approach in general; ignoring all other game modes for balance purposes seems ridiculous in any game, let alone GW2.

The current meta tPvp necro build running terror is strong enough to be ‘competitive’ at higher end tPvp. It relies on a lot of automatic fear procs, supported by the same mindset that gave us the recently buffed Nightmare Runes. However, other classes with higher potential skill caps will dominate said necro, given both players are equally skilled, because our strength is balanced around those involuntary procs.

snip

Yes all class balance is with tPvP in mind – which is how it should be the game should not be balanced for 1v1 or WvW roaming or Pve or anything else besdies the only competitive format we have – Class balance should only be for competitive formats

This is a huge problem; balancing a game solely through team PvP when most of the development is focused on PvE.

Lets state some truths about the Necromancer:

-Necros are inherently a selfish class.

-Necros have low to no group utility in high end dungeons.

-Necros have no leaps, no vigor, long cast times/recharge rate, no combo fire fields, and their class mechanic is meant to be everything from our escape to our substitute for invulnerability that every other class gets innately.

Because of these issues, the Necromancer is strong in 1v1, in tPvp, where players don’t run off and reset the fight, because you are forced to fight around possession of points using your DS as a 2nd life bar. Anywhere else, the strength of our class falls off drastically.

As I said before, the current meta necro build relies on automatic fear procs through Nightmare Runes. Once Anet nerfs those runes (and I believe they will), the build’s strength in tPvP will be drastically reduced. No other meta build has such glaring weaknesses, and it is a huge design flaw to make a meta build built around an overpowered rune set and then call the class ‘balanced’.

You can redesign a celestial ele if they nerf the strength runeset (again) and it will still be part of the Meta. Not so with the Necromancer.

The one thing about GW2 I have a real hang-up with is the design mandate that no profession shall be indispensable to group play or world events.

The developers try to make all professions capable of doing everything, yet keep specific themes for professions. I kind of miss having a critical role. Older MMORPGs forced players to group according to job and people got really good at their professions.

Here, I feel like other professions are close enough to a debuff profession if they trait that Necro is unnecessary. On the other hand, the first three letters in GWEN seem like queens of co-op play with Mes, Thief, and Ranger each excelling at something no other profession can duplicate. Engi and Necro are the odd ones out but Engi has more fire and direct damage. Necro is a hybrid of crippled light tank and AoE debuffer. That is what makes it feel so unsatisfactory. I feel like an arrow cart.

I wish Necro could get a new weapon with at least one reliable closer. DP and SG are it and they are not very reliable considering the pathetic damage attached.

I actually have to agree a little with Ovid on this Moa. I know there are things that are in need of change, but saying that necro is totally useless is just not true, atleast in my opinion. I guess it depends a lot on what build is played – but the 6/4/0/0/4 build still has great burst potential, maybe even the best single target condi offensive in the game.

My 2 cents. I’m not going to get in to a deep discussion, i just wanted to state my opinion.

Ovid.7135:

Bhawb, very active on the forums, has a grand total of 85 pvp games.

Because I got to rank 14 in less than 20 games in soloQ. Doesn’t exactly make me want to play a ton when it was that easy to get up there. And I’m neither active enough nor interested in playing team builds to play teamQ.

Its not like I base everything off my personal opinion either, in fact when it comes to stuff like this I rarely do. The only time I use my own knowledge is for MM, since I have personally tested and investigated the build more deeply than anyone else in the game. For anything else, I talk to people like Zombify, djooce, or Blackmoa for PvP, or I listen to spoj for PvE. I also use the wiki, in game sources, and things like that, which is why I’m one of the most knowledgeable players, even though I am definitely not the best player. Never mistake theory for practice, the best coaches/analysts are not always the best players, and vice versa.

Now, do I agree that Necro is absolutely useless? No, of course not, if that was true Outplayed by Children wouldn’t have such success both in 2v2s and 5v5s. However there are massive issues with the profession that cannot be solved by simple skill. The only actual niches we have is Corrupt Boon, passive fear spam, and being paired with an engi.

Apokriphos.7042:

Lets state some truths about the Necromancer:

-Necros are inherently a selfish class.

-Necros have low to no group utility in high end dungeons.

Pretty sure necro has the highest burst in the game since fgs nerf….(No I’m not counting icebow because most hits don’t connect) 1/4s cast time for 2 wells to do 4.7k/2.3k base and 2.5k base auto from lichform for PvE. Also I believe necro dagger auto hits harder than a warrior using axe, someone correct me if I’m wrong on dagger auto for necro. Also at the same time necro can stack decent amount of vulnerability alone.

What kind of burst are you talking about? I’d argue that for power burst we are not at all very good anymore since the Lich nerfs. Shatter Mesmer, Thief (S/D or backstab), any burst Warrior, S/D Ele, LB or GS Ranger, rifle Engi, DPS Guard… we literally have some of the worst power burst in the game imo, except in PvE where targets love to just sit in wells. Not to say that power builds can’t be played, but your burst isn’t nearly as fast or hard hitting as other builds, and has far more counterplay. PvE is a totally different beast where we might be okay for super short term burst, and thats because mobs are stupid enough to sit in wells, but you still aren’t good.

Condi burst is the only time that Necro burst is relevant though, and that is for PvP.

Ovid.7135:

@ Brandon: cool it. You accuse me of belittling people, for pointing out facts such as how many pvp games have players played. That’s the truth, not belittling, and important information for a topic on necromancers in pvp. But then you try to tell me who you think knows more than I do about the class? That’s not a fact, merely your unsubstantiated opinon, with the intention of trying to ‘put me in my place’. That’s pathetic.

Pointing out who has actually played pvp in a topic about pvp doesn’t say that they can’t speak or add to the discussion, it is just useful information for the readers, and may point to why their points, which they are free to share, may be misguided.

Cooling it would imply me being mad – I am not, I am disappointed… Those two are distinctly different.

Reason I called you out on saying that people have less knowledge about the class, despite having played less PvP than you, is because you are wrong… Even if you have not played PvP, you can find obscurities within the design of the class which you can translate to the shortcommings in PvP

Let’s take Spoj as an example – the man has written a guide on how to play Necromancer within PvE… He is part of rT, a European guild which focusses on PvE, the meta and how classes can be utilized…
When you want to make “the most efficient” build for a class, you have to go over every single metric and calculation – you need to find all the little quirks hidden within a profession to find the best build out there… This is why The meta build for PvE and a small deviation of the said build only differ within a 0.73% when compared with the DPS
Now not just that, but another example which these people in PvE do is Soloing Lupicus… Dunno if you have ever done it, but I certainly did… It is a good way of learning the class, the shortcommings, it’s strengths and the best way to “Learn to dodge”. – The most interesting part of this is building around it. Look at the Necromancer in a vaccuum – what are its ways of damage mitigation? Simple, dodges and Deathshroud, and debatably Protection. Now how many of these are useful against Lupicus? Also simple, only one – namely Dodge. Lupicus’ attacks are usually so devastating that the only way to survive is dodging. Seeing as how Necromancer’s lack a reliable way to get vigor, you would need to get Energy Sigils for your weapons…
What did we learn from Lupicus that might relate to PvP? Simple – Necromancers, unlike most other classes, are extremely suspicable to quick burst since the only way to mitigate it would be through Deathshroud, Dodges and Protection, of which only one is an actual way of avoiding damage – as the other two will only allow you to soak up “some more damage”

These are just pure examples, but you’d be shocked how much you can relate from playing all the different gamemodes within the game, and how much you can relate this to PvP. You say this is a way to misguide people, but I’d argue with that since these people know the fundamentals of their class…

You can relate this to real life as well – Imagine if you are an F1 Racer… You can be amongst the top, racing the best records without knowing the fundamentals of your car – A technician however would look at the car and see if there are things wrong or ways to improve.
If you got a car that is not the quickest, but excels in doing corners (maybe by cutting them off even), you have a car that is able to keep up with the rest. However, when time progresses, the fundamental flaw of the car being slow will slowly become more and more of an issue, to the point where other cars are able to take corners as well as yours and you are no longer be able to cut corners
The design of the car was wrong in the first place, but it was able to keep up via quirks that in the end could be overcome by designing other cars right.
You as a racer would say “The car is fine, I can keep up easily” – while the technician would argue with you and say that there is room to improve since the design is wrong – would you not, these design flaws will be exploited in the end, leaving you with a badly designed car.

Ovid.7135:

Again, the topic is not whether necromancers fit your ideals from GW1 of what a necromancer should be, but their viability within pvp. That is how I have taken the topic: gg pvp; not gg necromancers aren’t like they were in GW1.

On contrary, the reason why I am disappointed at you is because you simply brush everything off as a Learn to play issue. Though you are absolutely not wrong that many people play Necromancers not how it should be, you got to understand the other side of the coin as well…

Ever wondered why people complain about certain shortcommings of the Necromancer even though they are viable? It is simple, it is because these people try to find a way in combat which they cannot, they fall into the design fails of the class (Deathshroud not scaling, not running enough stunbreaks, not being able to “outrun classes”) and complain about it. Granted, there is a way now to work around this, but you have to learn to see the merrit of the complaints… You need to understand why these people complain in the first place, and this is because they do not understand the class, because this class is designed wrong to its core …

Ever wondered about the traits, weapons and utilities and why they were made? Ever wondered why so few of them are utilized within PvP? The people complaining do, and though their arguements are oftentimes flawed, they have a sold point in the fact that the very design of the Necromancer does not relate as to how it is played.

Me trying to explain this is very much more on topic than just saying “Learn to play”, because people will get the fundamental flaws of the Necromancer and either deal with it, or get a better arguement fot their complaints as they now realize where the issues come from. The reason why I constantly pull out GW1 as an example is because of how this game worked, and how classes had roles. Anet tried to implement these roles within the design of the classes, only more comprehensive and visual. This is apparent if you see the Mesmer who was a class designed around Hexes which applied “Phantasms” which weren’t visible except for a debuff icon, was a class based around “punishing” classes by interrupting and stealing their energy in return. They were a class that were designed to “Shatter Enchantments” much like how Shatters remove Boons – all of these were implemented within the class, though reworked, and thus the role of the Mesmer, as well as the Necromancer was the core of it’s design – of which the latter has failed since the design does not translate with “the meta”.

If you seriously say that these arguements hold not foot in how PvP is designed, I would say this arguement already stops here because you are not willing to find out the core of the profession, it’s design, strengths and weaknesses

It would do you good if you decide to be a “Technician” rather than a “Racer”… Not only would you understand the complaints better, and counter them better with arguements that are not “Learn to play” , but you would also be a healthy contribution to getting the design of this class right – leading to a more enjoyable class with a defined role that fits the design of the class…

I will once more emphasize that Necromancers will do fine within the current implementation of PvP – however, despite this fact, there are many wrongs within this class, and if we see the nerf of Reaper’s Protection, Nightmare Runes, Chill of Death and Lich Deathly Claws, without any compensation or rework of it’s design, you will know how badly this class can be exploited within its weaknesses due to design flaws
Besides, I remember when you still played your Condition Thief, you said that Necromancer’s lost pressure and are not viable, despite me believing that had an extremely potent role within PvP – now nothing has changed, except for some reworks on classes, and you firmly believe they are fine…

I am sorry for the lengthy posts, though I feel like this discussion needed to get a little more reasoning behind my arguements… I am not antagonizing you, I am putting you in your place and explaining the reasoning as to why the complaints exist on this forum, and they are way more fleshed out than just “Learn to play” which is a reason but not the reason

hello guys 3500 games on necro I was quite decent back in time.

It was my favourite profession in gw2. But nowadays i write to every necro after the match he should reroll another class because he is playing totaly useless class in the game.

Every single class is simply better than necro. Dont tell me condi necro is better than condi engie its not true.

Dont tell me power necro is better than mesmer its bullkitten.

And its simple you have your DS woooohah but what if 3 pple focus you? you enter DS and boom you are dead. Dead class cant help its team ;-) Trust me i rolled mesmer and engie and I never come back to necro unless they fix the class because right now its joke.

Amityel.5324:

hello guys 3500 games on necro I was quite decent back in time.

It was my favourite profession in gw2. But nowadays i write to every necro after the match he should reroll another class because he is playing totaly useless class in the game.

Every single class is simply better than necro. Dont tell me condi necro is better than condi engie its not true.

Dont tell me power necro is better than mesmer its bullkitten.

And its simple you have your DS woooohah but what if 3 pple focus you? you enter DS and boom you are dead. Dead class cant help its team ;-) Trust me i rolled mesmer and engie and I never come back to necro unless they fix the class because right now its joke.

and you believe that mesmer or engineer can survive 3 people?

There is nothing to fix, except boosting this class.

If you complain about class because you got rekt by 3 people, then sorry, you’re not good enough or either they were better than you.

There is one thing i would like to comment on here. The mesmer OP boon removal on sword autoattack… Which mesmer is going to autoattack with sword just to get a boon ripped every 3rd hit? Who is going to stand there waiting for the third attack to hit?

No self-respecting mesmer (or one that wants to stay alive) would do that. Ever.

Tao.5096:

and you believe that mesmer or engineer can survive 3 people?

There is nothing to fix, except boosting this class.

If you complain about class because you got rekt by 3 people, then sorry, you’re not good enough or either they were better than you.

no mesmer can escape ;-) and he has f4 invulnerability or if he uses sword + torch 3 stealths and on sword 2 invulnerability for 2 and 1/2s every 12s…….so please dont tell me I am not good enough when you cant simply escape so easily with necro like on other classes……btw engie has block on tool kit 4 + block on shield 5 + he can escape with elixir gun 4 and perma swiftness or he can take elixir S and have 3s invulnerability + stealth ;-)

Just a quick reply, and my last since I’m taking a break from the game for a couple of months because of university, but necessary:

" I am putting you in your place"

Just no. The only player you could put in their place would be a toddler who played with his nose and toes, whilst distracted by the Thunderbirds on the television.

Enough of internet wars though, this is your terrain: the forums, not the game itself. Again, to remind you, this topic is about necromancers in pvp. I’ve played that. Necromancers are viable in top tier pvp; I’ll say it again.

The section on PvE heroes is misguided and very very funny. Really funny. I properly laughed there. Thanks for one of the funniest posts I’ve seen in a long time.

Conclusion, because I’ve got to go:

There are weaknesses in a class, but it’s not so drastic as a massive design flaw. The weaknesses are, atm, outweighed by the strengths. If some of the strengths are nerfed (btw. if you think the only top tier successful builds rely on or even use those traits/runes, you’re completely out of the loop; still stuck on meta battle etc.), sure some builds will become weaker (obviously, as is the same for all classes).

If all the things people complain about on the forums were buffed, necro would be overpowered. If people think necromancers are not viable or strong atm because of some of their weaknesses, it is a definite L2P issue for those people.

Its fairly obvious if everything that is complained about was buffed then necro would be op. Thats not really a counter arguement. That sentence about weaknesses makes absolutely no sense.

I have to agree with the most points mentioned by black moa. The big problem is we are supposed to be aggressive but big parts of our kit do the exact opposite. Being aggressive generally means applying pressure. Forcing a opponent to do what i want, forcing him onto the defensive side. Big parts of our kit dont work like that. Giving you a few examples:

Corrupt boon: this skill used to be really good, a real counter move to boon heavy classes. But then it got further and further crippled and limited. Increased CD. only 5 boons. Cast time. Boon removal priority. Playing a aggressive style class does not favor such a skill, we should be able to do these things upfront, a skill like that, only any effect of my target does X, does not fit into this playstyle. It can be counterable, its only based on the situation, in certain cases this skill can be next to useless. A aggressive skill like that should never be useless until my enemy follows a certain pattern, it should FORCE my enemy into a desired pattern through its aggressive side.

Lich Form: While this is being a rather strong skill damage wise, and seems “aggressive” in nature it isnt. It gives a strong AA, and thats it. We dont have any aggressive means to focus our enemy, we cant dictate the flow of the battle, we cant play our thing on our own, we are reliable on our enemy, if the enemy is stupid or bad its no problem, but any decent player can shadowstep / blink / whirl/ stealth away and thats it. We might be able to “force” our enemy to disengage, we waste our elite skill for nothing. Against decent players its not even neccessary, a skilled guardian can block/aegis/blind/dodge almost the entire duration while severly damaging us.

PoC: Actually turns this skill into a fairly strong attack. At least on paper. The thing is, the skill is cluncky in design, its a slow projectile that can be outrunned on max range, or easily dodged as it has a very very obvious tell, in the end it depends again on the skill of our enemy. If the skill misses we get nothing. No gapcloser, no pressure.

Staff #4, dagger #4: Again, these skills look very strong on paper, and if executed correctly it can be of great use – but using them can be rather difficult. especially dagger #4 can be countered easy. This again, same problem as with corrupt boon or PoC, it can be strong, but we have to react to a given situation (thats based on the enemy) and cant cause this situation ourselfes. We get no bang for our buck, suffer from very long cooldowns compared to the chance of success, leaving us as a sitting duck, we cant dictate the flow of a battle in the first place, we can desperatly try to react only,

Compare this to most guardian skills for example. Guardian is 400% more aggressive then a necromancer could ever dream of. Most of his skills dont care about the enemy. I want a full load of buffs? I press a button. There is nothing my enemy could do against it in the first place, this is my playstyle, the enemy has to react. The gapclosers on weapon skills are not related to actually hitting anything. No clunky projectile, if i wanna be in your face, i press this button, and I AM in your face, no matter if you blocked the skill itself, i still get my gapcloser, im near you and can do as i please, i also can use this the other way around – without limitations or difficults. Infact although most guardians are force-fed into the bunker or support role, if a guardian wants to play aggressive and dps styled, he is so much closer to the playstyle necromancers should be at, while this isnt even the main class focus. Guardians in GW2 feel much more like Necromancers did in GW1. Necromancers feel a lot more like Monks did in GW1. Im not talking about the skills, the animations or stuff like that, im talking about the gameplay. A necromancer has to react to the enemys, just like a monk did, a guardian can act as dominant as a necromancer could in GW1.

Another big problem are the general weapon skills, everything is just so unsteady, every weapon set seems to do a bit of everything, certain weapon sets are crippling our class mechanic, although that should be the core or a big part of every build. As a side effect of that we get buffed and shiny spectral skills. Yeah these skills can be a great and gameplay wise very strong move of ressource management for our class mechanic, but they SHOULDNT, a class mechanic should work on their own, to a certain degree. Every other class has a working class mechanic on its own, which either offers a great variety, a great costumization or a mechanic that works good on their own. Deathshroud on its own, sucks. Its defensive mechanic, with some borderline useless skills depending on build that feels clumsy, unrewarding, and hard to manage. Borderline, they try to compensate this by a huge amount of traits focusing around DS or life force generation, while most of them are useless, taking up trait slot, limiting our build variety even more.

We have to use our traits and our utility skills to make the most basic things work, these things are then dependant on our enemy, we cant force or sustain our supposed aggressive playstyle, neither can we sustain ourself, and even if we build everything around a certain concept, the other classes do these concepts, these supposed meaning much better, often with lesser effort.

Everyone saying necromancer is fine clearly has not enough insight or experience with the class. We have many flaws that we can try to work around, but even if the end product seems okay in certain game types, these flaws should not exist in the first place. A hole in the staircase should be fixed, not just a DIY woodplank and a pretty carpet on top and calling it a day, and then base the entire balance about that.

Ovid.7135:

No response to my original post, but whatever. Sometimes these forums make me so sad because people blame the beautiful profession instead of their own skill level.

I dont agree or disagree with the OP (I simply dont care). But no reason to be a kitten is there. Lets face it, this community is just a bunch of people who have the “im an elite pro” attitude and they talk down to everyone in team chat, in ts, and on the forums. It is really sad. Check the ego at the door imo

Going for spoiler tags so I will not create walls again =/

Brujeria.7536:

I have to agree with the most points mentioned by black moa. The big problem is we are supposed to be aggressive but big parts of our kit do the exact opposite. Being aggressive generally means applying pressure. Forcing a opponent to do what i want, forcing him onto the defensive side. Big parts of our kit dont work like that. Giving you a few examples:

Brujeria.7536:

Corrupt boon

Brujeria.7536:

Lich Form:

Brujeria.7536:

PoC:

Brujeria.7536:

Staff #4, dagger #4:

Brujeria.7536:

Compare this to most guardian skills for example. Guardian is 400% more aggressive then a necromancer could ever dream of.

In your face

hide spoiler

While I agree with this, simply because of the ability to “dominate” a fight, the pressure is different than what I, and some other people expect from Necromancers…
Both Meditation Guards and Zerk Necromancers are comparable, since they are both a niche, and both focussed on hard bursts, however the way they are doing it is indeed fundamentally different… You give good examples as to why a Guardian is way more oriented at an aggressive playstyle, but it does not translate 1 on 1 as to what a Necromancer was designed to be…

The aggression from a Necromancer, to me, would look like one that is not necessarily be like that of a Med Guardian, namely it’s burst, but rather more control…
The thing I would like to see most, and this you pointed out well, is to have a Necromancer constantly in the face – but rather than gapclosers, force the enemy to stay close to you – Spectral Grasp is the only skill that even closely resembles this…
The reason why I am not much of a fan to give Necromancers the tools to close gaps, is because I look at traits that give chill and cripple, and I realize it was indeed meant to be the class that you cannot get away from – yet this is not encouraged within most of the utilities – on contrary even since Fear makes the enemy run from you (I know, bad comparison :P )
I feel they are right on track with the way they had the Necromancer in mind, but it simply does not work this way… You are not aggressive as you stated in both your posts since we are the class that need to react rather than making people react …
We are not the class that people get annoyed by when comming close because they cannot run away , since people usually have an easy time escaping from a battle with a Necromancer since their tools to keep them in the fight are limited… While funny enough, Guardians got Ring of Warding and Binding Blades to keep groups of people close and in the battle

Still, a really interesting read, and solid points for the debate

Bah… my posts are getting longer and longer =/

HEY GUYS

There are actual Necromancers on top teams in PvP now

WAIT!

We are weak and useless

WTF?

Best part of this useless thread –
Ovid says that if you think Necro is useless and not strong or viable it is a L2P issue
Brujeria says that if you think Necro is completely fine you are not experienced enough and need to L2P

Second best part of this useless thread – Mesmer 3rd auto attack chain on the sword counts as a viable and more powerful boon removal than anything Necro has

Narkodx.1472:

HEY GUYS

There are actual Necromancers on top teams in PvP now

WAIT!

We are weak and useless

WTF?

Best part of this useless thread –
Ovid says that if you think Necro is useless and not strong or viable it is a L2P issue
Brujeria says that if you think Necro is completely fine you are not experienced enough and need to L2P

Second best part of this useless thread – Mesmer 3rd auto attack chain on the sword counts as a viable and more powerful boon removal than anything Necro has

I usually dont reply to posts like this since your post alone is enough proof that you have no idea about game designs, balance or archetypes, but as im in the mood right now i still do it.

Necromancer currently has one viable build that is mostly used and rather reliable in pvp. This build is based around terror, fear and spike damage. Most burst and a lot of potential danger is caused by 2 passive procs, traits and runes. Only because a class has one really viable build for pvp is not proof that a class is fine. GW2 is designed against “single purpose” professions, every profession should be able to fill any role in their own style – the key factors, how a certain profession deals DD, or supports might be completly different. The necromancer was often described as an aggressive attrition style, tanky fighter with good self sustain. The only viable meta build is neither attrition, neither tanky, neither sustain heavy. Its a simple condi burst build that works because of passive procs. The point is clear that necromancers are rather strong in this role, but thats the only role, and this role does not even meet the criteria the class should be constructed around.

Players can make most things work, the bigger question is, how are things designed and balanced, what classes does exceed in a situation, with a build style within the summary of all professions and available builds, and then add the challenge of staying true to the class design and philosopy.

Most necromancer skills that are really potent arent “weak” at all, they just are sitting duck style skills, rather unreliable and not aggressive, rather reactive – things like corrupt boon, putrid mark etc. are strong if they work well, but if they work well they dont do it in a way they should be supposed to based on the class description – the current meta is most likely burst, recover, burst recover, maybe disengage after big CDs are blown, then rinse and repeat. Necromancers dont fit into this meta since they have no reliable means to do their thing, they cant apply their intended playstyle aggressive enough so the only viable option is to burst down the enemy faster as they can burst down you – thats applied through mostly passive means, “random passive proc situations” in a terror build.

In the current pvp mindset this even favours the necromancer a bit, as its about contesting points, sizewise limited areas where the enemy is forced to get up close, giving the necromancer a possible place in teamfights with proper positioning, but once ANY other gamemode (deathmatch, arena, return a flag, etc.) Necromancers will fall off even more as it has no downside for other professions to disengage on will.

Helseth also won a tournament when Mesmers were generally considered very weak, not because the class was good but because he was amazing and his team knew how to work around it. Eura also played Ranger when it was “weak”.

Being on a top team doesn’t mean much. A successful team beating other highly skilled teams with a Necromancer where the Necromancer is actually a vital member to their composition would be far better evidence. And we just don’t see this much except in NA, which has arguably the best Necromancers and the worst team-play.

Brujeria, I would modify your statement about ‘burst and recover’ by adding the word ‘boon’ in front to give ‘boon, burst, and recover’ being the current meta. If boons were cut back, it might open the playing field a bit.

If boons were cut back Necromancer would have even less viability because our only niche now is to remove the boons.

Bhawb.7408:

If boons were cut back Necromancer would have even less viability because our only niche now is to remove the boons.

Now, you are just being negative. Think positively! You are an avatar of Death!

If boons were trimmed, most notably Might, there would be less imbalance in PvE and WvW. Even PvP may get better because our boon flipping is on a CD compared to so much passive might stacking.

Bhawb.7408:

A successful team beating other highly skilled teams with a Necromancer where the Necromancer is actually a vital member to their composition would be far better evidence.

Sadly I don’t think we’ll ever see this with a necromancer at all, even if they buff us to the sky, because necromancer skills have very little synergy with those of other professions. It’s not like we provide pbaoe support and healing like Guardians or some ele builds can. Or that we can give party-wide might by blasting our own and others’ fire fields like the current celestial meta builds do. It’s just an inherently selfish profession the way it was designed, and I think whether they buff us or nerf us it’ll stay pretty selfish in overall approach.

TBH I think this is the major weakness with this game: that no matter how much you try to customise your build through traits and gear, a profession can’t stray too far from what the designers intended it to be like. And that’s diametrically opposite to what they promised us pre-release, when they were saying that you can choose your own playstyle no matter which class you played. What we need is a bigger variety of traits, which don’t just enhance skills or give passive buffs, but which fundamentally alter the way skills work.

Bhawb.7408:

If boons were cut back Necromancer would have even less viability because our only niche now is to remove the boons.

I disagree, our boon removals were more powerful and meaningful before April, when the current boon stack meta became the new norm. There are SO MANY passive procs of might, swiftness, protection, regen etc that it’s hard to corrupt the boons that REALLY hurt like stability! Even with the new Path of Corruption trait we can’t keep up as well as we used to be able to! So many times I used Dark Path on a warrior that had stab and vigor on him, only for him to get a passive proc of Might IN THE TIME IT TOOK FOR THE PROJECTILE TO LAND! And those few seconds of weakness he got instead of being feared aren’t worth anything, particularly since they’ll get removed by a Cleansing Burst 3" later.

manveruppd.7601:

… because necromancer skills have very little synergy with those of other professions.

This is true and not true because the other professions are boon-based. A condi-based profession would nicely compliment them if the balance between boons and conditions were not lop-sided in favor of more damage and mobility.

Brujeria.7536:

Narkodx.1472:

HEY GUYS

There are actual Necromancers on top teams in PvP now

WAIT!

We are weak and useless

WTF?

Best part of this useless thread –
Ovid says that if you think Necro is useless and not strong or viable it is a L2P issue
Brujeria says that if you think Necro is completely fine you are not experienced enough and need to L2P

Second best part of this useless thread – Mesmer 3rd auto attack chain on the sword counts as a viable and more powerful boon removal than anything Necro has

I usually dont reply to posts like this since your post alone is enough proof that you have no idea about game designs, balance or archetypes, but as im in the mood right now i still do it.

Necromancer currently has one viable build that is mostly used and rather reliable in pvp. This build is based around terror, fear and spike damage. Most burst and a lot of potential danger is caused by 2 passive procs, traits and runes. Only because a class has one really viable build for pvp is not proof that a class is fine. GW2 is designed against “single purpose” professions, every profession should be able to fill any role in their own style – the key factors, how a certain profession deals DD, or supports might be completly different. The necromancer was often described as an aggressive attrition style, tanky fighter with good self sustain. The only viable meta build is neither attrition, neither tanky, neither sustain heavy. Its a simple condi burst build that works because of passive procs. The point is clear that necromancers are rather strong in this role, but thats the only role, and this role does not even meet the criteria the class should be constructed around.

Players can make most things work, the bigger question is, how are things designed and balanced, what classes does exceed in a situation, with a build style within the summary of all professions and available builds, and then add the challenge of staying true to the class design and philosopy.

Most necromancer skills that are really potent arent “weak” at all, they just are sitting duck style skills, rather unreliable and not aggressive, rather reactive – things like corrupt boon, putrid mark etc. are strong if they work well, but if they work well they dont do it in a way they should be supposed to based on the class description – the current meta is most likely burst, recover, burst recover, maybe disengage after big CDs are blown, then rinse and repeat. Necromancers dont fit into this meta since they have no reliable means to do their thing, they cant apply their intended playstyle aggressive enough so the only viable option is to burst down the enemy faster as they can burst down you – thats applied through mostly passive means, “random passive proc situations” in a terror build.

In the current pvp mindset this even favours the necromancer a bit, as its about contesting points, sizewise limited areas where the enemy is forced to get up close, giving the necromancer a possible place in teamfights with proper positioning, but once ANY other gamemode (deathmatch, arena, return a flag, etc.) Necromancers will fall off even more as it has no downside for other professions to disengage on will.

I usually don’t read walls of text like this

and I didn’t

keep QQing

I usually don’t read walls of text like this
and I didn’t
keep QQing

I did read it and the wall of text is pretty clear and logical.
However, i am just hoping someone of influence reads it so it won’t be of waste

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

I usually don’t read walls of text like this
and I didn’t
keep QQing

I did read it and the wall of text is pretty clear and logical.
However, i am just hoping someone of influence reads it so it won’t be of waste

This entire thread is a complete and utter waste

You think a dev will read this? LOL

Devs will look at the upcoming tournaments and see plenty of Necros – thats all we need to see all other arguments are pointless

I think you are wrong about the one viable build, it depends on the comp your playing with and against.

I know for a fact that at least some of these threads are read by decision makers.

Troll Thread from a few days ago was deleted. For the same reason, I am certain they ignore troll posters like some of the posts in this thread.

When someone responds to a well thought-out post with:

“Whateva, didn’ read. Because some necros have signed up for the touney, that proves your idea sucks”

Its pretty clear the Developers know which posts to read, and which posts to discount.

They can also see which classes you primarily play. If you post that necros are perfect, yet you don’t play them, it doesn’t help your argument.

Just a thought.

Narkodx.1472:

This entire thread is a complete and utter waste

You think a dev will read this? LOL

Devs will look at the upcoming tournaments and see plenty of Necros – thats all we need to see all other arguments are pointless

The devs read threads, this is a fact.

NeXeD.3042:

I think you are wrong about the one viable build, it depends on the comp your playing with and against.

True. If you are playing against idiots there are 3 viable builds. However against any competent team the only builds that work are Dhuumfire (which some would even argue doesn’t work against good teams) and the PoC build.

Well before the ds nerf I would have said a spectral zerker spec would have become viable, still think it might be.

There is no reason for a team to use a power Necromancer at high tier play, the only unique thing they bring is Lich, which is very easily countered. Other professions have better burst, better survivability, more mobility, etc.

Yeah I guess with all the boon removal it pretty much ruins lich… still I think the spectral zerker could be viable in certain comps

Hello !

http://hpics.li/aa48cfe

You welcome.

Amicaly yours.

Honestly i’m saying the same thing all the time but nec is not bad, it’s just different, you play TQ with a nec so your team have to LEARN HOW TO PLAY with a nec and as a nec you have TO KNOW how to be different than other profs sustain prof like ele war .. Nec is mainly made to finish a team fight, I advice you to not use anyspeed just to contrain yourself to be the last coming in a fight just to notice how effective you are in this position, the chain condi/fear is still dealing more damage than a lot of thing in this game, the thing is most prof can clease a fear with a condi clease OR a stunbreak, so if you just come NOT FIRST in fight, after your opponent already use at least few CDs you just have to come faceroll kill 1 target, switch target use SoS and GG you did most pressure on 2 targets than a mes or whatever. EX: if I just know that a warrior already used his zerk stance when I come into a fight, I’m pretty sure that I’ll kill him in the next seconds.

Also most of nec’s are not paying attention to all non-damage skills/condi, we have one of the best acces to CHILL (my favourite condi tbo), if you try to play some other prof you just can notice a lot of times that you’re dying coz you can’t use your heal or whatever coz of the chill.
We have the best acces to WEAKNESS who is also cleary horrible almost everyting like war ele thief, since all thoses prof have ultra acces to MIGHT, well with patch of corruption we just turn their MIGHT to WEAKNESS, plus te weakness from dagger/ds/combo staff. Considering ranger not meta anymore we also have one of the best acces to poison.
All of this is not really something that you can FEEL directly since it’s not direct damage, but obviously if you theorycraft a bit on it, it’s clearly effective.

Also² DOOM is one of the best interupt in the game, ranged/instant with a real low cd’s, wich alow us to be also effective on this kind of situation you have to prevent smth like a rez spirit, rez banner, or any obvious animation like mesmer/necro’s heal or elite….

SO once again I wouldn’t say that necro is a bad prof it’s just COMPLETLY DIFFERENT, after now more than 1 year on nec I still change my mind on the way I should play it to be more effective, I recently came to ELE mainly but I now more feel like I just cheated on my wife before realising I loved her much

How i see all the necros problems? Lets look on the balance of the game in general , in my opinion necro next to the guardian is best balanced profession , why? There are 4 things that are rly important about teams comps. Mobility , dmg , sustain , team support. Now lets see on other professions , some of them have 2-3 of those things and ele have all of them. Necro is a bit diffrent , u cant get everything , going more into dmg u loose sustain and oposite and that is how the game should be balanced.

State of some professions and how they benefit from runes or amulets makes them way to strong. Ofc necro need some nerfs,buffs,fixes like every class but lets be honest top teams will always pick profession that will be most effective and necro in not that kind of class. Offbunker comps like 2 eles , wars , guards or engis makes rotations easier , teams with that kind of setup have way more room for mistakes.

In my opinion devs need to ton down some professions , runes , amulets and then necro will be more effecitve becouse i dont want to w8 till anet will buff necro and make it OP like they did with dhuumfire.

Ofc we can make feedback , we can write what we want but after 2 years most of us should know 1 thing , no matter what kind of feedback u will give at the end its anet who make the changes and if i remember right they dont care about comunity to much.

Till then all we can do is just play necro , practice and w8 for next patch.

Forsaker.9213:

Ofc we can make feedback , we can write what we want but after 2 years most of us should know 1 thing , no matter what kind of feedback u will give at the end its anet who make the changes and if i remember right they dont care about comunity to much.

That’s true, but I also remember in the past, before the 15april when they wanted to add Perplexity Runes in sPvP, Fraelina created a post and asked to all rankeds teams EU and NA to reply something about it and he then created a list of experienced teams/ppl who disagreed with this change, and MIRACLE anet listened and didn’t implemented the rune so if we can do the same when they announce a change on necro that we don’t agree maybe, I said MAYBE they will listen to us.

Suprah.5076:

Forsaker.9213:

Ofc we can make feedback , we can write what we want but after 2 years most of us should know 1 thing , no matter what kind of feedback u will give at the end its anet who make the changes and if i remember right they dont care about comunity to much.

That’s true, but I also remember in the past, before the 15april when they wanted to add Perplexity Runes in sPvP, Fraelina created a post and asked to all rankeds teams EU and NA to reply something about it and he then created a list of experienced teams/ppl who disagreed with this change, and MIRACLE anet listened and didn’t implemented the rune so if we can do the same when they announce a change on necro that we don’t agree maybe, I said MAYBE they will listen to us.

They indeed do listen, as long as the majority agrees on the statement…

Getting a majority to agree on class balancing and rework is neigh impossible however (unless the class-community also agrees it is stupid “Mesmer Scepter says hi”), since people are oftentimes, rightfully, scared of what the changes bring – and look at the past of the Necromancer, I think the black page in history (Dhuumfire) is fresh on their minds…

Plus, it takes a lot of convincing to try and get people agreeing on you for changes – not buffs per se, but changes… This is extra hard if people use the arguement “But Necromancers are fine” since it is kind of hard to discuss with that… It is completely true of course, Necromancers fare well in PvP, but if you tend to look deeper, you see that the most popular specs rely on some ugly stuff (Passives or massive Lich auto burst), which is not exactly aggrovating to play with or against hence why threads like these exist in the hope that someone sees them…

funny how we now have skills and even weapons on every other profession that totally overshadows that dhuumfire “trait” back then ..