My [big] Revenant Rework

My [big] Revenant Rework

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Posted by: Rin.1046

Rin.1046

As this thread has a red post, and is constructive, I thought I would post my Revenant feedback, and suggested fixes, here.

Weapons
As the OP rightly said, cast times are a massive issue in PvP, on all weapons. Hammer is by far the worst culprit, but IMO all weapons have cast times that make them feel sluggish to use and easy to avoid.

Hammer Suggestions:
– Auto Attack = 1/2 second cast. The flight time and damage is ok, but the cast time feels painfully slow.
– Coalescence of Ruin = Either 1/2 second cast or 1/4 cast with a 3 second cooldown.
– Phase Smash = 1 second cast + 1 second evade/invulnerability.
– Field of the Mists = 1/2 second cast + field width increased by about 20%
– Drop the Hammer = 3/4 second cast.

Damage wise the hammer feels ok, but it seriously lacks any kind of burst potential due to the lengthy cast times.

Staff Suggestions:
– Auto Attack = 1/4, 1/4, 3/4 second cast times for each respective part of the chain + damage on the first hit increased to be the same as the second.
– Punishing Sweep & Debilitating Slam = 1/2 & 1/2 second cast times respectively + damage for both skills increased by 10-15%.
– Warding Rift = 3 second duration (and an appropriate cast time) + add a counter attack that hits any melee attacker for a larger amount of damage (which has a 1 second ICD).
– Renewing Wave = 1/2 second cast time.
– Surge of the Mists = Add a 1 second evade and reduce the cooldown to 15 seconds.

The damage on this weapon is a little lacking and it needs some other adjustments, but other than that it feels ok, considering it is more for a healer than a damage dealer.

Mace Suggestions:
– Auto Attack = This feels fine as is, though.
– Seering Fissure = 1/2 second cast + 5 second cooldown + 4 second burning per pulse. The cast time on this skill is currently far too long, espceially when your target can easily dodge it AND move out of the field.
– Echoing Eruption = Leap distance should be increased when target out of range of the 410 units or add a 3/4 second evade while leaping.

The biggest issue I found with mace was the cast time of skill two. As most players can see you casting it or move out of the field it is very hard to use it to its maximum effect. It may be good for area denial but very weak in open field combat.

Axe Suggestions:
– Frigid Blitz = Ok for the most part, though sometimes you will teleport passed your target and not hit them with the final hit (maybe a bug?). I also think the pass through damage should be doubled and the cooldown reduced to 10 seconds.
– Temporal Rift = 1/4 second cast time and 3/4 duration.

Good weapon for gap closing and interrupting, but some minor adjustments needed.

Continued in next post…

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Posted by: Rin.1046

Rin.1046

Continued…

Legends

Dwarven Stance Suggestions:
– Soothing Stone = Cooldown reduced to 25 seconds.
– Inspiring Reinforcements = The animation time (the time it takes to lay the path) needs to be much faster. It takes 2 seconds to fully lay down the path, but I think it should be 1 second instead, as 2 seconds feels way too slow.
– Forced Engagement = 1/4 second cast + 35 energy cost + 6 second cooldown. The cast time is the biggest problem with this skill.
– Vengeful Hammers = 1/2 second cast and needs to be usable out of combat. I find the inability to start casting this out of combat very annoying.
– Rite of the Great Dwarf = 1 & 1/2 second cast time.

Centuar Stance Suggestions:
– Project Tranquility & Ventari’s Will = I feel that the tablet should be auto summoned when you first invoke the legend. I would also like to see the tablet follow you at the max tether distance. As to the skill itself, I think the passive heal of Tranquility needs to scale with healing power a bit more. Ventari’s Will seems ok as is, but I feel its cast time should be 1/4 second, the movement speed of the tablet increased slightly (but not much) and the cost reduced to 5 energy.
– Protective Solace = Needs to be usable out of combat.
– Natural Harmony = I think the healing should be doubled and the cooldown increased to 6 seconds. It is far too much micro management for my tastes to have it as a small heal every 2 seconds, and would prefer a bigger heal every 6 seconds much more.
– Purifying Essence = Cost reduced to 25 energy. I find with the staff and Cleansing Channel equipped I hardly every used this skill. Even with just the staff equipped it wasn’t used often. However, if it converted conditions to boons, as well as do a small heal, I feel the energy cost would be worth it and this would add a little more utility.
– Energy Expulsion = 1 second cast time. Plus, I feel the fragments should be replaced by a small AoE heal instead. Then change the Natural Abundance trait to add extra fragments when you dispell the tablet with this skill. Alternatively, increase the fragment duration to 10 seconds.

Demon Stance Suggestions:
– Empowering Misery = Cooldown reduced to 25 seconds.
– Pain Absorption = Energy cost reduced to 25 and resistance duration increased to 2 seconds per condition transfered.
– Banish Enchantment = Condition threshold reduced to 2, cost increased to 25 energy and self vulnerability reduced to 2 stacks.
– Unyielding Anguish = Self cripple reduced to 4 seconds.
– Embrace the Darkness = 1/4 second cast time, energy drain reduced to -7 and usable out of combat.

Continued on next post…

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Good feedback is key to getting the developers to listen to you.

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Posted by: Rin.1046

Rin.1046

Continued…

Traits
As there are a lot of traits, I will only suggest fixes for those that I feel need a buff.

Retribution Suggestions:
– Improved Aggression = I feel the duration increase should be reduced to 50% but effect everyone, not just non-player characters.
– Eye for an Eye = Cooldown reduced to 30 seconds.
– Retaliatory Evasion = Retaliation duration increased to 3 seconds.
– Determined Resolution = Damage reduction increased to 10%.
– Reflexive Summon = Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds.

Salvation Suggestions:
– Disarming Riposte = Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds.
– Tranquil Balance = Health threshold lowered to 50% but effectiveness reduced to 10%.
– Hardened Foundation = As this is a healing trait line I feel this trait should work the other way around, gaining 7% healing power based on toughness.
– Eluding Nullification = I feel this should also remove a condition from yourself, not just allies.
– Invoking Harmony = This trait is ok, but the fact you have to summon the tablet before you can use it you will be wasting the first the first couple of seconds of this benefit. So I have two suggestions to fix this. Suggestion one: if the table is auto summoned by default (as per the above Centaur Stance Suggestions), then the duration should be increased to 10 seconds but the effectiveness reduced to 15%. Suggestion two: when this trait is equipped you auto summon the tablet when Ventari is invoked.
– Natural Abundance = As per my above suggestion about Energy Expulsion, I think this should drop more fragments when casting this elite.
– Momentary Pacification = This seems a bit redundant with Energy Expulsion having a knockback effect. However, if the cast times of all (current) elites are reduced, then this trait would be more useful.

Corruption Suggestions:
– Replenishing Despair = The heal per condition is far too weak, I feel this needs to be tripled at least, and should scale a lot better with healing power.
– Venom Enhancement = As torment is the main condition of Mallyx I feel this trait should buff torment instead, and maybe have a slight torment damage buff of 15% added as well.
– Diabolic Inferno = With all the elites having long cast times this trait feels a bit weak, but if the cast times were reduced it would be a much better trait.
– Pulsating Pestilence = As the cooldown is long and the duration is very short, I feel the trigger chance should be increased to 25%.

Invocation Suggestions:
– Swirling Mists & Replenishing Globe = I feel the replenishing globe that flies around you should seek out players if they are nearby. At the moment it seems the globes fly around you at a fixed distance, and if you are too close to an ally the globe will go passed them missing them completely. I also feel the globes are a little hard to see in combat, so maybe an increase in size would help also.
– Cruel Repercussion = Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds.
– Fiece Infusion = Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds.
– Invigorating Flow = I feel the healing from this trait needs to scale a lot more with healing power. Or alternatively, you heal more when you use more energy, so a 25 energy skill will heal you for more than a 5 energy skill would.
– Charged Mists = Increase might to 3 stacks or give up to 5 nearby allies 2 might stacks as well as yourself.

Overall

Overall I think the Revenant has a fun playstyle and has some good support. However, it lacks on the damage side, with what we have available at the moment, and the cast times are too restrictive. I feel that if the cast times can be drastically reduced, across the board, and the utility of ventari increased, the revenant would be a lot better.

As we have not seen the direct damage weapons and legend yet, I do not feel it is right to claim the damage output of the existing weapons is low, though the staff needs a slight boost. I suspect the damage legend will boost our damage output, so with reduced cast times (as suggested above) I think that would be enough to make a difference, without changing the damage on the current weapons too much.

Anyway, that is my feedback on the Revenant so far. I hope you guys find it useful.

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Posted by: Depraved Ambience.7942

Depraved Ambience.7942

  • #4 This skill should be able to cast during running and have it’s energy cost be reduced to 10. With such high cooldown it shouldn’t also have such high energy cost. Increase the radius to 600 too. I understand the ventari is based on short range heals, but with the current mobility the range surely needs to be improved as your ally is most likely already dead before you can even get to him to heal him.

I also think that the radius should be increased to 600 and have its energy cost reduced. It would be nice if Renewing Wave applied aegis to allies as well; that would make it feel very effective for support and really give allies a chance to get out of a bad situation. The biggest change I would really like to see for this skill is for it to be a blast finisher to enable more interactive group play by allowing staff revenants to blast allies’ fields.

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Posted by: Basandra Skye.4031

Basandra Skye.4031

and yes, we haven’t seen all the revenant options yet, but giving new options won’t solve the problems with the current ones.

oh and one more problem, which was raised in the awesome reddit thread: the traitlines are too isolated from each other. they have no play between them, and are too narrow-focused. as a result, you’ll always pick up the two trait lines corresponding to the legends you chose, and then invocation.

That may change slightly when Shiro’s finally out, as I believe the devs have mentioned that his invocation, and associated trait line, is the more “pure dps” trait line. As well as dual swords.

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Posted by: VodCom.6924

VodCom.6924

My 2 cents :

I mostly agree with the OP comments on weapon. Just to add a few things :

  • the AA of the hammer is way too slow. Skill 2 is interesting. Drop the hammer is too easily avoided.
  • the AA of the mace is underwhelming with just one target. With a group it’s becoming much better. Conclusion : change nothing for now.
  • Mace #2 is ridiculously weak. Have it pulse more burning. Even when going full rabid, the condi damage mace can inflict is weak compared to the warrior sword.

About legends :

  • Displacement skills are wonky and frustrating to use. Also : door opened for PvE exploits where I move bosses in places they were not supposed to be.
  • Mallyx : Elite is really nice and versatile for both condi and direct damage build. The heal is decent. The other utilities are too costly and can’t be combo’ed.
  • Jalis : the taunt is too costly and risky to use.
  • Ventari : in dungeons, moving the tablet around is ok. Solace is a nice and fun skill. Same for nature harmony. The elite and delayed healing are not worth the casting time.

About the legend system in general :
Revenants loose an enormous amount of flexibility because of the utility skills bundle system that legends bring. However, since you design legends around sPvP, you always end up in PvE with skills you don’t want to use. Makes it impossible to have builds perfectly fitted for one encounter.

Possible solutions :

  • Introduce a special type of utility skills that can be equipped on any legend. They are less potent than legen specific skills but allow you to replace a specific stances that you have no use for.
  • Release a crapton of legends that are really focussed on one specific function (condi cleanse, reflect etc…).
Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone

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Posted by: Daeth.8912

Daeth.8912

My 2 cents. I like the skills in theory, it would be nice to get the same kind of healing and tanking functionality in all the other classes. But overall it felt weak. Agree with most of the above posters regarding the weapon skills.

Regarding the Ventari skills, please just make the tablet follow the Revenant. Micro-managing where it is standing seems great in theory, but is actually just annoying. I doubt you will see anyone wanting it to be somewhere other than where they are standing.

Also the elite skill blowing it up? Yeah no thanks, not unless it does a massive heal, which it doesn’t. So it just wastes time and is occasionally useful between fights. The current functionality would be fine if it didn’t blow up the tablet to do it (meaning you have to resummons before you can use your good heal / cures). Should just be an overload charge akin to the Engineer turrets.

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Posted by: Gulesave.5073

Gulesave.5073

Regarding weapon swap, I don’t think it’s needed – at least not the traditional version. The biggest issue is being able to swap between melee and ranged, and there are other solutions to that.

Allow all the weapons to do both.

Create slightly different versions of each weapon’s skills: 1 melee set, 1 ranged set. The function and feel of the skills would be as close as possible between the two versions. The biggest change would be to the autoattacks, with many of the others needing only minor tweaks.

Then, have the weapon swap key (`) swap you between melee stance and ranged stance.

On top of giving players some versatility, this also opens up some new mechanical options, as you could now have traits that call out the melee or ranged stance. For example: “While in melee stance, gain x% movement speed and attack speed” or “While in ranged stance, your weapon skills cost less energy, and you gain energy whenever you apply a boon or condition.”

I should be writing.

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Posted by: Gathbard.6904

Gathbard.6904

Pretty good points all around.
I would just like to add that while Vengeful Hammers feels weird in a ranged setting, it is pretty good for melee situations, both aoe and single target, especially when coupled with Reflexive Summon procs that give you a total of 3 hammers, each one with a chance to proc Sigil of fire or whatever.

They hit everything inside that small radius, hit fast and crit often when using zerk gear.
You don’t have to actually hit the target with the summoned hammer, just keep them inside the radius (not sure if working as intended but it feels right).

I also liked coupling the Equilibrium trait with Diabolic Inferno for a small spike damage, if you could call it that.
Damage felt too low in general and switching to a properly specialized damage dealing character was a bit traumatic after trying the Revenant for the first time.

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Posted by: Mysticjedi.6053

Mysticjedi.6053

I’ll continue with ventari as this legend is pretty bound to have with staff.

I agree with OP on opinions stated. I want to elaborate on this idea. The weapons do feel tied to a legend and thematically it is fun idea, but in practice is makes for boring play. I have found that if I bring my staff I pretty much stay with Ventari and when I switch to a different legend I then regret bringing the staff.

My suggestion if you’re going to link weapons with legends go all the way. When you equip Ventari you also equip a staff. When you equip another legend you equip their attached weapon.

While there are choices for utilities based on legends, I feel like the overall diversity of revenants for build options is lacking. At least give a standard heal and standard elite and maybe 6-9 choices for each legends 7-9 skills. This would allow for more customization. That or there needs to be a lot more legends to choose from.

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

and yes, we haven’t seen all the revenant options yet, but giving new options won’t solve the problems with the current ones.

oh and one more problem, which was raised in the awesome reddit thread: the traitlines are too isolated from each other. they have no play between them, and are too narrow-focused. as a result, you’ll always pick up the two trait lines corresponding to the legends you chose, and then invocation.

That may change slightly when Shiro’s finally out, as I believe the devs have mentioned that his invocation, and associated trait line, is the more “pure dps” trait line. As well as dual swords.

have you read what you quoted?

and yes, we haven’t seen all the revenant options yet, but giving new options won’t solve the problems with the current ones.

giving shiro won’t solve the problems we see in the current legends, it’ll just ensure everyone runs shiro, always. it’s like saying “ranger shouts are fine, they have survival skills”.

as it currently is, the legends are too strict and narrow, and so are their respective trait lines. there’s little to no play between them, and borderline zero room for experimentation. this isn’t about needing more legends, this is a problem with the core design, with how legends (and weapons, and traits) are being handled right now.

the revenant’s systems need to be broader. trait lines must be interesting considerations regardless of which legend you’ve picked, weapons need to be more general-purpose (staff is only good for ventari, mace/axe is only good for mallyx, etc.), and the legends need more play between them. right now the only legend that has good general purpose use is jalis, because on-demand stability and a strong condi cleanse heal are always welcome options, but even then, you only jump to jalis on a mallyx or ventari build for those two, then jump back out. hell, the fact that it’s a “mallyx” build, instead of a “condi mallyx + jalis” build is telling of how little play there is between legends.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: Adrian Guardian.9480

Adrian Guardian.9480

  • #2 I don’t know what I find worse: The immense long casting time or the poor range of the skill. Since when is 480 a thing? This skill needs to be much faster on activation time (0,5 seconds) or be 600 units range. Either way it also needs a buff on the burning. Increase the burning to 2 burning ticks instead of 1. With the current damage modifier on burning this skill certainly needs a big buff. Another thing I’d like to change to this skill is the cd and the duration of the field. It doesn’t feel like it can be combined with stuns or immobilizes too much due the short duration. Increase the cooldown to 8 seconds and increase the time of the field to 6 seconds.

I’d take your stronger mace#2 but instead of balancing it solely by recharge, I’d up the energy cost enough to sting (15e), allowing you bursts damage from this one at the expense of utility skill usage (just played mace/mallyx, and the mace felt like it consumed too little energy;, unlike staff which has too high energy costs and hammer which is about right).

edit: played some more, learned what the energy is good for on the utility skills, understood why current mace energy costs are fine.

(edited by Adrian Guardian.9480)

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Posted by: Neeja.4579

Neeja.4579

Lack of swiftness should be mentioned. And there must be 2 legends with it, not only Shiro. Doing the combo is not nearly enough, and bad quality of life. Make it baseline for Dwarf #6.

Biggest problem however is the lack of weaponswap. Swapping utility skills does not compensate for that. Worthless class without kits or stance change. Wont be able to adapt to situations and will have half the weaponskill cooldowns compared to the other classes. A Warrir can spam 5 greatsword skills before swapping to double axe and keep doing damage. Once revenant has used a toggle utility/elite skill, it’s done, can’t even do weapon damage.

(edited by Neeja.4579)

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Posted by: Cevilo.7862

Cevilo.7862

My bit of Feed back, I did a my testing with Condi on the Rev, I switched back and forward some on my necro to compare. I think my biggest gripe is I felt like I was required to use the Mallyx Elite to be even viable. My necromancer I felt was able to dish out and drop heaps of Mobs with ease with using only his Weapon abilities, Even my Ele when running Condi/Earth felt like he was doing more. But on the PvE side of things Rev’s Condi feels really weak. The Torment doesn’t last long enough to stack high enough to hurt at a good rate (monsters don’t constantly kite like PvPers do(should) so you don’t get the benefit of bonus damage while moving) The #2 on mace the timer for the fire stacks is so small it doesn’t seem like it’s doing much being I believe 7-9 stacks of Fire = Fire before it became stack-able may have been viable before stacking time, but now it feels worthless. This was while my Rev was wearing items that boosted Condi while my Necro is actually in Berserk gear. the condi the rev runs needs some tweaking so he can be viable against a group of basic minions with out being forced to pop the Elite. I also feel like (currently) there’s not many options in the trait lines to cater to a pure Condi build. Excited to see the updated version and try out the Damage focused build though

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Posted by: Neeja.4579

Neeja.4579

Being forced to use Mallyx elite means you don’t use weaponskills for long. The shared pool is a serious issue.

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Posted by: felessan.9587

felessan.9587

I have a two step suggestion to help with the weapon problem :

  • Each weapon would have a ranged/AoE and melee version of their skills that depends on the Legend in use. Ventari could be ranged and Jallis melee for instance. Equipping 2 melee legends would be like equipping 2 melee weapon sets; changing Stances could refresh weapon skill to make it more like having 2 sets.

This is what the Revenant needs.

Lacking weapon swap has just been unbearable to play with. I tried in both this beta and the previous one to play the profession, but it’s just too rigid so I gave up before too long.

The weapons are so closely tied to each legend thematically and mechanically it feels more like you pick one legend as your mainstay and a second because you have to. It plays more like you’ve locked yourself into one set of 10 skills with no option to switch between melee and range, and better synergize your utilities to support your choices.

I’m holding out for the 4th and 5th trait lines (not to mention the Elite Specialization) that maybe some of that will get fixed. I will say though, given how heavily focused this game is on DPS, with the current state of affairs the vast majority of players are going to be running Jallis/DPS legend with DPS legend’s weapon.

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Posted by: Neeja.4579

Neeja.4579

This is a nice idea, but just plain old weapon swap would be so much better and give so many customization options. Each Revenant would have 4 different combinations with weaponsets and legends, making up for the lack of utility skill customization.

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Posted by: ShadowCatz.8437

ShadowCatz.8437

Lack of swiftness should be mentioned. And there must be 2 legends with it, not only Shiro. Doing the combo is not nearly enough, and bad quality of life. Make it baseline for Dwarf #6.

Biggest problem however is the lack of weaponswap. Swapping utility skills does not compensate for that. Worthless class without kits or stance change. Wont be able to adapt to situations and will have half the weaponskill cooldowns compared to the other classes. A Warrir can spam 5 greatsword skills before swapping to double axe and keep doing damage. Once revenant has used a toggle utility/elite skill, it’s done, can’t even do weapon damage.

I agree with you, Neeja, this is how I felt when I was in SW earlier today. When I tried to get a full healing from switching between Mallyx’s and Jalis stance there was this annoying energy-O-meter to take into account. There is a CD on changing stance AND energy to keep in control to be able to do anything which to me seem to be too much to handle. I did get my heals, but to do that I had to use “Unyielding Anguish” to get out of damage and with Dark field combo I could also Blind to get some more time, but it was hard even with Traveler’s runes to get enough distance when all skills where blocked because of lack of energy. This is something that need to be addressed from developers as health management are central for Revenant’s survival and the synergy between changing stance (get condi for more healing [Mallyx]>clear condi with Jalis=>almost full health bar) have a too high cost as you will need to manage both health and your energy bar at the same time and make prediction on which weapon and utility you will probably need within that time frame while you are changing Legendary Stance (as it has a CD). Add into this mix how you also will need to keep an eye for your endurance bar, I think there are now too many things that need to be check while you play as a Revenant.

SUGGESTION to ANet:

Why not make a visual cue in each skill for how much energy we have, so we can judge with a glance on each skill if that skill will be possible to use and not only greyed out, the same way we have for range indicator (red bar in bottom of skill) and a counter for CD now? That bar looks cool, but I feel it is very hard to keep in control of endurance, health, CD for each skill, range and now also energy. In short ANet’s dev need to re-think how much (visual) information we will be able to handle while playing to not get lost in what is going on screen.

As a former elementalist and now Mesmer player I have got used to change attunement as often as possible or to change weapon (on Mesmer) to get the most out of different type of sigils which trigger on swapping weapon (or attunement). With Legendary Stances there is a need to make those sigils work on the same level as for all other professions or find a way to compensate so Revenant still will have some identity and uniqueness depending on weapon swapping sigil (or sigil in general).

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Cause i cant make a new thread due to punishment (lol srsly? idk why i even bother with feedback at this point….+that 600sec flow.) I will post it here instead…

Part 1; Introduction;

In the world of Tyria where people run ridiculous bursts, insta abilities, a lot of stuns and conditions revenant cannot survive. At some point he really feels like hes coming from the other world, sadly in not a positive way. I see what you did here, revenant vs revenant is actually fun but vs everything else he stands no chance. With current classes and their cheese mechanics revenant doesnt belong in this game. The potential is here, but some stuff needs rework/tweaks.

Overall revenant animations are too clunky. He lacks of survival tools like blocks, evades, invuls, boons to reduce damage, stunbreaks, condition removal, mobility on weapon skills. Paired with poor healing despite having 2 healing skills doesnt allow him to sustain properly. Healing skills on it own needs a buff as they dont heal for much at all. Take a look at “we heal as one” and “healing signet” – both of them heal for far more, not olny that but “we heal as one also” provides aoe regen and swiftness when trained, even aoe condi removal with tropper runes. Revenant healing skills are not even close.

Weapons seems to be made within just one legend in mind. Utility skills on it own arent that powerful either. Many of them are too situation and cannot be swapped at all for something more useful. I dont understand why unlike other classes we cannot insta swap legend without empty vessel trait. If we dont get this trait we cannot swap under cc at all nor while executing a skill.. It feels like someone made it on a purpose and force us pick up this terrible invocation line which doesnt have much connection to profession mechanic at all. Its really, really bad. Placing stunbreak on legend swap doesnt work. It reset energy, it changes our whole set of utilities..often its just better to wait out the stun than swap, not to mention that revenant rely on swaps so most likely we wont have access to stunbreak when we really need one.

Another thing is energy management, to be precise utility skills eat a lot of energy forcing us to spam aa just to collect enough energy for some utility skills. Everything revenant does consume energy to the point where we cannot continue using weapon skills as we have to collect energy for utility skills. That makes no sense, might as well just give weapon skills no cd at this point. Even healing skill consume small amount of energy…yet i i feel it should be opposite. A trait in invocation to actually provide a bit of energy by using healing skill would be pretty good.

The concept of energy is similiar to a thief initiative. But the thing is thief is an huge advantage here. His healing skill doesnt cost initiative, his utiliy skills doesnt cost initiative, he also happens to have utility skills/trait to enhance initiative regeneration and increase the cap. If a thief runs out of initiative he can still use autoattack and his utility skills. Thats not the case of revenant where if you run out of energy you cant do anything but autoattack. I dont think it should work this way.

I made a long list about stuff that is weak with suggestions what to buff/rework.

obey me

(edited by skowcia.8257)

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Part 2; General issues;

  • Remove weapon energy cost – please stop forcing us to build up energy for utility skills by not using weapon skill. The utility cost is already high enough on it own.If you want to keep up energy cost on weapon skills, remove their cd.
  • Weapon themes – modify weapon skills based on legends, Mallyx causing conditions, protective boons on Jalis, healing on Ventari, offensive boons on Shiro. As it stands now weapons are too heavily tied towards one legend leaving another one subpar. Thats why people asking for unnecessary weapon swap.

Examples with how field of the mist and staff orbs could be modified;

-Jalis would continue blocking as it stands now and gain retaliaton for blocked projectiles. Staff orbs could provide protection

-Ventari would heal a percentage of incoming projectile damage. Staff orbs heals as it is right now.

-Mallyx would reflect them instead. Reflected projectiles would cause bleeding. Staff orbs would would provide resistance.

-Shiro reflect instead and gains vigor. Staff orbs could provide fury I made full list for hammer skills at the buttom.

  • Revenant need survival tools which you could roll into utility skills – these would naturally be stunbreak, condition removal. Revenant needs higher sustain than other classes considering the fact that hes pretty much melee oriented. Unlike other classes he doesnt have possibility to switch to ranged. I also think that revenant needs defiance bar like noone else in their elite spec.
  • Aftercast is too high, it need to be reduced across the board, there are also problems with skill queue possibly due to replenishing globes trait. I press the key, i press it again..nothing. Feels like i have 1000ping or something.
  • Lack of mobility on weapon sets which will force everyone to pick up Shiro, and once we leave that legend we will end up without any mobility for 10 seconds. Shiro should help maintain to stay on top of enemy, but he shouldnt be necessary to have any sort of mobility. How we are supposed to close the gap to anyone without gap closers in weapon sets and equipped Shiro?
  • Instant legend swap should be baseline. No uh, ah but. It has to happen. Imagine ele being forced to trait for insta swap attunements..can you imagine that rage?
  • [Bug]Many abilities which causes effect on ground doesnt work on uneven terrain like coalescence of ruin, phase smash, temporal rift. That is game breaking and it must be fixed.
  • Utility skills – lets be honest, we need more utility skills to swap for something else. Current skills are not that bad (with some tweaks they will be decent) but we need customization. Thing is some of them are too situational, pain absorption is the best example of that. Decent in teamfights, useless everywhere else. I think we all can agree that we need a ways to customize our build outside of a legend choice to make some interesing combos. Right now some utilities wont be used at all depending on weapon.
  • Fashion stuff..legend should talk more often. Much more. Where are all that dialogues gone? No wonder revenant is so weak when enemies cant feel the true ultimate power of Mallyx. Bring it back.
  • More fashion stuff – animations adapt to the color theme of channeled legend, like purple hammer swings while channeling Mallyx.
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skowcia.8257

Part 3; Weapon skills

  • Hammer

Hammer Overall feel of this weapon feels clucky, it is supposed to be our olny one long range power weapon but as it stands now it doesnt do any damage at all, and thats not because damage coefficient is low but because how slow this weapon is. It also goes with theme the futher you shoot the more damage you does..so naturally you want to stay at maximum range. And here we got a problem – hammer has no abilities to kite foes. Its quite easy to stay on top of hammer revenant at all times as we cannot get away or knockback/launch someone. Ranger on longbow has low cd knockback with a decent distance, stealth and a pet to cripple/chill/immo/knockdown and lately when trained also taunt. As we can see hammer cannot compete.

  • Hammer bolt – reduce casttime to 0.75sec, increase damage by 15%
  • Coalescence of ruin – Eruption of energy should happen slighty faster. I feel like the whole damage of hammer is backloaded into this single skill at max range which then can be avoided by strafing. It wont work. If we make it deal current max damage at all times it will be broken, if we keep it in current state it wont be good either with so many gap closers people have nowdays. We need something in middle with slighty higher cd. Current damage at second eruption with 4 or 5 cd?
  • Phase smash – As i mentioned hammer has no mobility. I propose to make this one our mobility skill so we can get some much needed breath room by leaping away with ability to shadowstep back similiar to thief sword 2 skill. This skill should also provide evade frames during leap. Increase cd to 10 seconds. Shadowstep ability last 5 seconds, can be used under cc.
  • Field of the mists – Promotes backpedaling, but strong defense against projectiles as tradeoff. Sadly it useless against melee foes. My proposition is to reduce casttime to 0.5sec with a small 240 knockback in melee range. The animations fits it perfectly already.
  • Drop the hammer – Would be a fine, decent skill if…not that casttime. With current long animation we losing pressure on a target which can walk out of the radius before the cast even finish. That skills needs desperately some serious lowered casttime. It already has huge tell so i believe 0.75 sec casttime is more than enough.
  • Mace

Mace A condition weapon which was supposed to be fast paced and…doesnt work. The base torment duration on aa is too low considering the fact we have to apply it in melee range. Another problem is that while aa on it own is fast paced, searing fissue is simply out of place due to high casttime. Echoing eruption feels alright howered it could apply some condition along with damage. I know it main purpose is to mightstack but as it stand now its nearly impossible to do that in combat. That straight forward fire field combined with this skill is simply unreliable in a mobile game like GW. What i propose;

  • Misery swipe and anguish swipe – Increase torment duration to 5 seconds. Buff direct damage.
  • Manifest toxin – Should apply 2 stacks of poison. Reduce duration to 5seconds.
  • Searing Fissure – Make the field longer (600 like jalis road) as backpedaling to use echoing eruption doesnt work in pvp at all on melee set.
  • Echoing Eruption – apply 2 stacks of bleeding on each hit.
  • Axe

Hybrid weapon created to work with mace. Overall this weapon isnt that bad but it need some tweaks.

  • Frigit Blitz – Reduce cooldown to 8 seconds. Nothing less, nothing more. We need mobility and this skill is a good candidate for that one. We cannot escape fight with it so i believe its justiced at this point.
  • Temporal rift – increase range of the pull, right now its too easy to walk out of range. Make it ground targeted ability like Into the Void. Buff direct damage by 20%
  • Staff

Fun weapon but the damage is simply too weak, now i understand that staff is not designed to do dps but in this case it should provide a bit more defense outside of a block with 10cd if that is a support weapon.

  • AA – The healing doesnt not make up for the low damage this autoattack has. First two attacks should scale a bit better.
  • Punishing sweep+debilitating slam – Completely useless. First i have to time it right and take damage from an attack just so i can apply 3sec weakness withamount of damage with huge 1sec windup? Useless. Rework it to provide counterattack instead similiar to ranger gs 4. I propose block duration 1.5 seconds, can be triggered in melee range olny. When counter land apply weakness to your foe. Counter block animation 0.5 sec
  • Warding rift – Awesome skill. I love it.
  • Renewing Wave – Remove selfroot and decrease casttime to 0.75sec.
  • Surge of the mists – Interesing skill. Howered i believe it should apply evade frames for skill duration. After all we taking a mist form during this skill.
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Part 4; Utility skills

  • Jalis

Jalis was supposed to be a tank legend yet failed miserably at his job. Rite of the dward doesnt work in current state and never will. It also happen to be his olny way to reduce damage on us, inspiring reinforcement is too unreliable to work and vengeful hammers are useless. What i would do assuming revenant will get build in class mechanic tools i mentioned;

  • Soothing Stone – Current value is too low. Sweet spot would be 6000 healing or lowered cd. 2 second block duration, reset the skill if interrupted like Shelter. Increase casttime to 1.25sec.
  • Inspiring reinforcement – Let it apply stability right once the skill goes off. Right now delay in which stability is applied kills this skill. I wasnt able to get stability in time to prevent cc simply due to the fact that i have to wait too long in a small field to get any stability. It wont work that way, stability must be applied instantly. Increase energy cost to 35. Make it a stunbreak ability.
  • Vengeful hammers – Buff it damage, really just do it. As it stands now it damage is too low for the casttime it needs. Consider to buff it damage by at least 25% and let the hammers apply 1sec of protection to allies they pass. Apply pulsing retaliation to revenant while this skill is up. Theres also one problem about this skill as well – hammers keep disappearing if they run into a objectice, its gamebreaking considering the fact how many obstacles we have in this game, not to mention the overall well know bugged ground where even on flat ground we can see “obstructed” for no reason. It happened few times to me where the hammers dissapeared on a flat terrain due to the that reason.
  • Forced engagement – Reduce the cost to 35 energy. Remove 2 conditions on yourself upon skill activation (doesnt matter if it land or not). Unblockable
  • Rite of the dwarf – Remove it stunbreak function. Make it an upkeep skill effecting olny revenant. Keep casttime as it is. 10 energy/sec, 25 energy cost. Reduce casttime to 2 seconds.
  • Mallyx

Mallyx – this legend feels alright when it comes to animations and casttimes. Howered the condition threshold should be reduced to 2. Its quite hard to maintain 3 conditions on yourself with so many conditions cleanses around. I dont think condition duration should have affect self inflicted conditions either. Another problem with Mallyx is that he doesnt have access to anything else outside of confusion and torment, making him quite weak vs classes that doesnt spam conditions on him.

  • Empowerering Misery – A worse version of consume conditions. It also doesnt heal for a lot if you dont fight condition builds. Make it heal for 6500 and apply 2seconds resistance for each condition on revenant. Reduce casttime to 1 second.
  • Unyielding Anguish – Needs a nerf. It shouldnt keep displace foes over and over after initial leap. Allow this skill to continue applying 2 stacks of torment/pulse to foes in the field instead. Reduce self cripple duration to 4 seconds.
  • Banish Enchantment – Increase range to 900. Otherwise fine as it is.
  • Pain Absortion – Reduce energy cost to 30 and casttime to 0.75sec. Make it a stunbreak ability so it can find use outside of teamfights.
  • Embrance the darkness – No reason to stay for a longer periods of time.. Cast it, copy conditions, leave. 10% buff to all stats doesnt cut it. Make it pulse resistance once every 5 seconds. Removes resistance upon leaving and prevents boon application to yourself for 5 seconds. This skill should copy all stacks currently on revenant to foes instead of just 1 stack. Also change it to copy conditions every second. Reduce castitme to 3/4 sec. Increase energy cost to 25 upon casting.
  • Ventari

Ventari “I can outrun a centaur” well im not sure about it. Ventari doesnt work, its sluggish, too hard to use as we have to focus and waste time giving orders the tablet while enemy beats us. Let the tablet summon on default once we channel Ventari and follow us. Increase the radius to 360 (except protective solace) and give it a proper healing skill.

Energy expulsion should launch foes (450 distance) to justice it energy cost. While ordering commands i want to continue attacking or whatever , tablet control shouldnt interrupt my own actions. You tried to desing something new but it doesnt work and never will in current form.

Protective Solace could become a stunbreak ability with increased cost to 30 energy. That would make it a bit more useful when there are no projectiles around and also help reduce the ridiculous block uptime.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Part 5; Traits. Most of them are weak and feels outdated, it also feels like many of them are a must have and will be picked up over everything else

Corruption line – overall this line inst bad but it needs some tweaks as some traits seems to be outdated and underpwoered with recent changes;

  • Repleshing Despair – increase the amount of healing to 90.
  • Venom enhancement – also increase damage of poison by 20%.
  • Demonic Defiance – swap it with opportune extraction to a minor position. I believe everyone going for corruption will pick up this trait leaving others in to be overshadowed by that one. Howered at some point i think it should become baseline.
  • Opportune extraction – Make it a gm trait. Boons you remove during channeling Mallyx are corrupted instead. That will definitely help Mallyx to put extra pressure he needs on boon spamming classes that doesnt put a lot of conditions on him.
  • Frigid precision – increase chill duration to 3.5 seconds.
  • Spontaneous destruction – reduce cd to 20 seconds.
  • Diabolic inferno – apply 2 stacks of burning for 4 seconds.
  • Maniacal Persistence – pointless trait. Rework it to provide a 33% chance to inflict condition on critical hit based on channeled legend. Jalis 4 sec weakness, Mallyx 6sec poison, Shiro 3sec chill, Ventari 4sec burning. 15 cd. Master trait. Swap with Bolstered Anguish
  • Pulsating Pestilence – Useless ability when we are being attacked from range. Give it a target icd and copy condition to foes that struck us up to 1200 range. Just like embrance the darkness it should copy all stacks instead of 1.

Retribution – at some point i like the fact that it doesnt need Jalis legend to use, but at another point i dont understand why nothing in this line enhance Jalis abilities compared to salvation line for example.

  • Enduring Recovery – buff to 25%.
  • Improved aggresion – also gain energy when taunted foe strikes you. 10 energy, 1 icd. Right now this trait doesnt make much sense, even in pve.
  • Unwarevering avoidance – also breakstun on legend swap.
  • Eyes for the Eye – reduce cd to 30seconds. Increase damage to taunted foes by 10%
  • Retaliatory evasion – increase duration to 3 seconds.
  • Reedeming Protection – swap with determined resolution. It will always be picked up over the other two traits in master.
  • Determined resolution – Boring and null trait. Let it apply 2 second protection for Jalis abilities
  • Empowering vengeance – provide might for 15 seconds. 8 seconds is too short duration to make any serious use of it.
  • Steadfast Rejuvenation – Terrible and boring trait. Make it heal for 500 instead whenever we use Jalis ability.

Salvation – Not much to say here, a support line which focus mostly on healing

  • Disarming riposte – reduce cd to 10 seconds per target.
  • Nourishing roots – increase radius to 360.
  • Hardened Foundation – swap with invoking harmony.
  • Invoking harmony – invoking a legend creates a wave of healing centered on you in a 240 radius. 800 heal (0.90* healing power).
  • Tranquil Benediction – increase regen and swiftness to 3 seconds.
  • Momentary pacification – should apply daze in the same moment where we use elite skill instead being delayed by 2 (?) seconds after the elite skill is done casting. 15 cd.

Invocation – how come a professions line has literally no connection whatsoever to class mechanic, thats one of the reasons why that line is terrible. I dont understand the purpose of this line. Lets fix it!

  • Replenishing globes – combine with revitalizing breath. With the specialization changes it makes no sense to have them as separate traits.
  • Cruel repercussion – useless as this trait is too unreliable. Delete it and make a new one which will provide a boon upon swapping to legend. Jalis 3sec protection, Ventari 5sec swiftness, Mallyx 3 sec resistance, Shiro 5sec fury.
  • Fierce unfusion – remove cd, reduce fury duration to 6 seconds.
  • Equilibrium – swap with empty vessel, increase healing to 800.
  • Invigorating flow – make it a minor in place of revitalizing breath.
  • Empty vessel – healing skills no longer cost energy and instead provide a small amount of energy – 15.
  • Recovering mists. A new master trait. Weapon skills has a chance to provide a small amount of energy. 15% chance, 5 energy. 4 icd.
  • Charged mists – Keeps the amount of energy upon legend swap if the energy was above 50%
  • Shrouding mists – 15% reduction to control effects when energy is above 50%, 15% damage reduction when energy is under 50%.
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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Part 6 and last one; Imagination. In reality examples how legends could modify hammer skills;

  • Jalis

Skill 1 – cause vulnerability for 5 sec.

Skill 2 -gain retaliation for 3 sec.

Skill 3 -2 sec aegis.

Skill 4 – gain 5 sec might for blocked projectiles. 1sec icd. Combo field changed to light.

Skill 5 – cause 5sec weakness.

  • Mallyx

Skill 1 – cause 3 sec torment.

Skill 2 – cause 3 stacks of vulnerability for 6 seconds.

Skill 3 – also cause 2sec slow.

Skill 4 – reflect projectiles instead which cause 3 sec bleeding. Combo field remain unchanged.

Skill 5 – cause 2 stacks of burning for 4 sec.

  • Ventari

Skill 1 – heal yourself for small amount and allies it pass through (100hp).

Skill 2 – gain regeneration for 2 seconds.

Skill 3 – removes chill, apply aoe vigor to yourself and allies.

Skill 4 – block projectiles and heals you and allies behind for 10% of incoming damage. Combo field changed to water. How it would working? Field of the mist changes projectiles to healing bolts.

Skill 5 – also blind for 5 seconds

  • Shiro;

Skill 1 – gain might for 5 seconds.

Skill 2 – gain fury for 2 seconds.

Skill 3 – gain swiftness for 5 seconds.

Skill 4 – reflect projectiles gaining 1sec vigor. 1 icd. Combo field remains unchanged. I believe changing it to smoke would be too strong due to blind on projectiles.

Skill 5 – gain 4sec quickness.


I hope my feedback and ideas wont be wasted. I really believe that this stuff can fix current state of revenant and many core issues in it current desing.

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Posted by: Khenzo.2465

Khenzo.2465

I really, REALLY agree and LOVE the idea of legends affecting weapons. It’s just a great idea all around.

Gives the legends more flavour, with a much stronger ‘feel’ as they directly empower your weapons aswell.

Yeah honestly this would be such a great addition to the class.

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Posted by: BeLZedaR.4790

BeLZedaR.4790

skowcia nailed it. I can definetly see myself enjoying the class with these changes instead of being completely disappointed and giving up after doing Ascalonian Catacombs with a Level 30 warrior in my party doing the same DPS as i do (I tried both power based damage and condition based damage).

Make condi rev great again.
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Posted by: Mysticjedi.6053

Mysticjedi.6053

@skowcia- love idea of legends affecting weapons. Wouldn’t make wielding a staff with Mallayx up feel pointless.

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Posted by: Lonewolf Kai.3682

Lonewolf Kai.3682

Part 6 and last one; Imagination. In reality examples how legends could modify hammer skills;

  • Jalis

Skill 1 – cause vulnerability for 5 sec.

Skill 2 -gain retaliation for 3 sec.

Skill 3 -2 sec aegis.

Skill 4 – gain 5 sec might for blocked projectiles. 1sec icd. Combo field changed to light.

Skill 5 – cause 5sec weakness.

  • Mallyx

Skill 1 – cause 3 sec torment.

Skill 2 – cause 3 stacks of vulnerability for 6 seconds.

Skill 3 – also cause 2sec slow.

Skill 4 – reflect projectiles instead which cause 3 sec bleeding. Combo field remain unchanged.

Skill 5 – cause 2 stacks of burning for 4 sec.

  • Ventari

Skill 1 – heal yourself for small amount and allies it pass through (100hp).

Skill 2 – gain regeneration for 2 seconds.

Skill 3 – removes chill, apply aoe vigor to yourself and allies.

Skill 4 – block projectiles and heals you and allies behind for 10% of incoming damage. Combo field changed to water. How it would working? Field of the mist changes projectiles to healing bolts.

Skill 5 – also blind for 5 seconds

  • Shiro;

Skill 1 – gain might for 5 seconds.

Skill 2 – gain fury for 2 seconds.

Skill 3 – gain swiftness for 5 seconds.

Skill 4 – reflect projectiles gaining 1sec vigor. 1 icd. Combo field remains unchanged. I believe changing it to smoke would be too strong due to blind on projectiles.

Skill 5 – gain 4sec quickness.


I hope my feedback and ideas wont be wasted. I really believe that this stuff can fix current state of revenant and many core issues in it current desing.

Like I said in another post, great ideas here Skowcia. Kudos to you m8.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Im trying but its all up to devs. Ty.

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Posted by: Roy Cronacher

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Roy Cronacher

Game Designer

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Keep the awesome feedback and ideas coming! There will be quite a few balance changes, among other things, to the Revenant profession the next time you all play it.

Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

Keep the awesome feedback and ideas coming! There will be quite a few balance changes, among other things, to the Revenant profession the next time you all play it.

Any thought to general revenant utility skills that we can use to replace the legend utilities on our bar?

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Posted by: Foefaller.1082

Foefaller.1082

Keep the awesome feedback and ideas coming! There will be quite a few balance changes, among other things, to the Revenant profession the next time you all play it.

Any thought to general revenant utility skills that we can use to replace the legend utilities on our bar?

Personally I won’t want “general” revenant utilities, but rather more options per legend to customize our utility bar(s) to better suit our weapon of choice. I like the uniqueness of Legend/Utility swapping, and general choices would kinda dilute what it means to say, pick Jalis over Shiro.

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

Keep the awesome feedback and ideas coming! There will be quite a few balance changes, among other things, to the Revenant profession the next time you all play it.

Any thought to general revenant utility skills that we can use to replace the legend utilities on our bar?

Personally I won’t want “general” revenant utilities, but rather more options per legend to customize our utility bar(s) to better suit our weapon of choice. I like the uniqueness of Legend/Utility swapping, and general choices would kinda dilute what it means to say, pick Jalis over Shiro.

Adding more options per legend can become illusory choices if it requires certain legends or trait lines for required utilities: e.g., stun breaks, gap closers, or condition removal. It would be easier to add general utilities to the Revenant rather than having the devs create more legend-themed utilities that are all style and no substance.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

Keep the awesome feedback and ideas coming! There will be quite a few balance changes, among other things, to the Revenant profession the next time you all play it.

No more ideas till you dont show up Shiro and Glint (signets? why?..) so i can complain some more. Also i think we covered pretty much everything, now some people olny have a different idea how to solve these issues. Are you going to show up some changes on upcoming poi or show them on forum before next beta (without eta) will happen?

I think it would be better to keep us up to date with changes which we can discuss rather than leaving community into the dust guessing what changed etc.

Any thought to general revenant utility skills that we can use to replace the legend utilities on our bar?

I hope not. I want to keep themed utility skills attached to legends instead of castting some random stuff. Thats what makes revenant unique. Also all icons on your bar fits perfectly!

Adding more options per legend can become illusory choices if it requires certain legends or trait lines for required utilities: e.g., stun breaks, gap closers, or condition removal. It would be easier to add general utilities to the Revenant rather than having the devs create more legend-themed utilities that are all style and no substance.

Why “illusory” choices? It will indeed add more builds options and you cant deny that.
And why it would be easier? Bc you said so? It actually makes it harder for devs as they have balance these general utilities with legend theme ones. You can make legend utilities fit each other, with general utilities just you throw some random junk which wont fit anything.

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

No more ideas till you dont show up Shiro and Glint (signets? why?..)

Revenant’s energy is a call back to GW1’s energy, and in GW1 signets uniqueness were on the fact that they didn’t cost any energy to use. My guess is that their decision to add signets to glint might be so they can play with that idea.

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Posted by: Lonewolf Kai.3682

Lonewolf Kai.3682

Keep the awesome feedback and ideas coming! There will be quite a few balance changes, among other things, to the Revenant profession the next time you all play it.

Have you thought about opening up the amount of Legend you can switch to instead of using just F1 to switch 2 Legends? In this case, each legend would correspond to F1, F2, F3, F4? Obviously some balancing would need to take place, such as increased cooldowns, and perhaps even reducing the energy gain from switching Legends.

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Posted by: Rin.1046

Rin.1046

Keep the awesome feedback and ideas coming! There will be quite a few balance changes, among other things, to the Revenant profession the next time you all play it.

Thanks for letting us know you’re reading our comments, Roy. We really appreciate it.

I’m really looking forward to seeing the changes, and any other stuff you guys have added.

I’d also like to add my liking of skowcia’s idea of each legend adding extra effects to our weapon skills, as I feel that would make up for having no weapon swap and limited utility skill customization.

Simplicity is complex.

Good feedback is key to getting the developers to listen to you.

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

I hope not. I want to keep themed utility skills attached to legends instead of castting some random stuff. Thats what makes revenant unique. Also all icons on your bar fits perfectly!

That’s a shallow argument of aesthetic and not of practicality.

Why “illusory” choices? It will indeed add more builds options and you cant deny that.

And why it would be easier? Bc you said so? It actually makes it harder for devs as they have balance these general utilities with legend theme ones. You can make legend utilities fit each other, with general utilities just you throw some random junk which wont fit anything.

You can’t deny that general utilities would also add more Revenant build options, but clearly your solution would be easier just because you say so, skowcia, since you build imaginary stumbling blocks around my proposal.

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Posted by: Lonewolf Kai.3682

Lonewolf Kai.3682

Having general utilities sort of defeats the purpose of switching Legends, doesn’kitten I can see asking for more utilities for each Legend though.

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

Having general utilities sort of defeats the purpose of switching Legends, doesn’kitten I can see asking for more utilities for each Legend though.

Not inherently, no. I see general utilities serving the function of broad mist-oriented skills and techniques that Revenants learn in their training. The sort of skills that honestly the Revenant currently lacks but also doesn’t require that the Revenant cut themselves out of must-have utilities because of their legend choices. It’s being able to pick a utility that represents your revenant training regardless of which legend you are channeling.

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Posted by: That Guy.5704

That Guy.5704

I have seen a decent number of people asking for the tablet to follow them almost like a ranger spirit used to. I thought about this too, but in the end, I dont think a simple follow is a good idea. There were actually a few times when I didnt want the tablet to be right on top of me. The thrasher champ at vinewrath is a great example of this. I placed it over the champ and popped the bubble up and left it there while I was running around doing staying out of poison range. There are quite a few other instances around the game where a blocking bubble is a great advantage and where you are not actually in the bubble. Similarly, if this is meant to be a support legend, you may want to send it over to a party member and help them out for a minute. If it was just following, then that would not work. Further, if you just have the tablet follow you around all the time, then the entire tablet is pointless anyway and all the skills should just be cast on yourself and the object should just be deleted.

I would rather see something like following you at the current desummon distance if you move out of that range, OR, follow you at pet distance if you have been out of combat for 5-10 seconds or something, OR, being given options for a command stance (current functionality) and a follow stance (follows like a pet). But, I really think that the commanding movement around the battlefield area during combat needs to be preserved.

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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

I hope not. I want to keep themed utility skills attached to legends instead of castting some random stuff. Thats what makes revenant unique. Also all icons on your bar fits perfectly!

That’s a shallow argument of aesthetic and not of practicality.

Why “illusory” choices? It will indeed add more builds options and you cant deny that.

And why it would be easier? Bc you said so? It actually makes it harder for devs as they have balance these general utilities with legend theme ones. You can make legend utilities fit each other, with general utilities just you throw some random junk which wont fit anything.

You can’t deny that general utilities would also add more Revenant build options, but clearly your solution would be easier just because you say so, skowcia, since you build imaginary stumbling blocks around my proposal.

My argument is that beats the purpose of channeling legends to lend their powers.
Its like “hey i am ele and i just attuned to water but i will use fire skills instead, cus why not? I can control all elements anyway”.

Your “general” utilities are against the core desing of revenant. At this point why not make all of these general skills? And balancing being easier around themed skills in one package rather than some random stuff+legend utilities, is not a opinion, but a fact.

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

My argument is that beats the purpose of channeling legends to lend their powers.

Your “general” utilities are against the core desing of revenant. At this point why not make all of these general skills?

You are also are drawing upon the energies of the mists as a Revenant, and that’s still part of the idea behind the general utilities. Possibly only one skill per legend bar would be replaced by a general one. But if people replace all of their legend utilities with general utilities, that suggests that something is flawed about the design of the legend utilities. Just something to keep in mind.

Its like “hey i am ele and i just attuned to water but i will use fire skills instead, cus why not? I can control all elements anyway”.

Not equivalent because the elementalist unlike the revenant has control over their utilities which mostly serve a different function than their weapon skills.

And balancing being easier around themed skills in one package rather than some random stuff+legend utilities, is not a opinion, but a fact.

Not really, because this is how all other utility skills in the game work. The skills should simply be balanced regardless of the bundle they come in.

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
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Posted by: skowcia.8257

skowcia.8257

You are also are drawing upon the energies of the mists as a Revenant, and that’s still part of the idea behind the general utilities. Possibly only one skill per legend bar would be replaced by a general one. But if people replace all of their legend utilities with general utilities, that suggests that something is flawed about the design of the legend utilities. Just something to keep in mind.

You are also calling echoes of the mist from the past to lend their powers. Thats what revenant is all about. You channel Mario and you gains his jumping abilities. The energies you speak about are in weapon skills.

They could also replace legend skills as combination of general utilities which will end up being overpowered as rev could possibly do too much at once. Just something to keep in mind.

Not equivalent because the elementalist unlike the revenant has control over their utilities which mostly serve a different function than their weapon skills.

You have control as to what utilities you want to bring in the form of predefinied roles.
In case of revenant their utility skills serve identical roles to attunements. You swap to earth to gain tanky ability skills and boons. As revenant you swap to Jalis to get tanky abilities. Not much of a difference. It wont feel right if you start causing damage in earth with fire skills, and it wont feel right if you start causing conditions in Jalis.

Just bc now revenant has no utility skills to swap for, doesnt mean they wont get more in the future. It would be silly if they end up with lower amount of utility skills compared to old classes.

Not really, because this is how all other utility skills in the game work. The skills should simply be balanced regardless of the bundle they come in.

Revenant is not like other classes in the game nor are his utilities. And why people mix utilities? Cause their package is bad, they are not designed to work in one bundle, they are designed to be mixed (with some exception like medi guard, mm necro). That is nothing else but a desing issues. Any class, any utility type should do well if you pick up one type, but then troubles begin where yu start stacking strongest utilitiescreating some op combinations. They have a choice; lock us into one type of utility type (thats when complaining will start) and buff them to work with each other or keep current system, letting some abilities sux and never be used.

Due to the fact that revenant abilities are bundled they can make them stronger, even if they are situation. Balance is not so easy as it looks like. Its a complex thing. But you probably wont understand that as for you its nothing else but some new shinies you can add in.

obey me

(edited by skowcia.8257)

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Posted by: Genesis.8572

Genesis.8572

We may have to simply agree to disagree at this point, as I doubt our differences on this issue will be resolved, as they involve irreconcilable understandings and visions for the profession. (Upon re-reading, I also don’t think you have much of a grasp of what my proposal entails.)

Balance is not so easy as it looks like. Its a complex thing. But you probably wont understand that as for you its nothing else but some new shinies you can add in.

But next time you should try being a little less condescendingly rude.

Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
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(edited by Genesis.8572)

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Posted by: Roy Cronacher

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Roy Cronacher

Game Designer

Keep the awesome feedback and ideas coming! There will be quite a few balance changes, among other things, to the Revenant profession the next time you all play it.

No more ideas till you dont show up Shiro and Glint (signets? why?..) so i can complain some more. Also i think we covered pretty much everything, now some people olny have a different idea how to solve these issues. Are you going to show up some changes on upcoming poi or show them on forum before next beta (without eta) will happen?

I think it would be better to keep us up to date with changes which we can discuss rather than leaving community into the dust guessing what changed etc.

Haha. yeah basically that’s what I’ll be trying to do. I’m aiming be more transparent with changes so you all know what is coming for the next iteration of the profession. Hopefully that way there can be more back and forth for getting the balance and feel of the profession in a good spot before launch.

The next iteration will have a good amount of changes, some bigger then others.

Twitter: @RoyCronacher
I work on systems, combat, skills, and balance.

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Posted by: Gathbard.6904

Gathbard.6904

I would like to add a thing about swiftness and mobility in general on revenant:

Right now there are few ways, that I know of, to get a self reliable swiftness on Revenant and they all require Jalis with Inspiring Reinforcements, which I’ll rename Brick Road for the time being :P and a specific weapon:

Brick road + Mace 3 / Hammer 3 or Hammer 5

This restrict your mobility choices quite a bit, especially in the current state of the game where basically everyone has access to either permanent swiftness or increased speed options.

Also, it might sound silly, but having a Ventari legend with no swiftness options other than a traited staff and no built in 25% movement increase feels a bit off, “I can outrun a centaur” and all.

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

No more ideas till you dont show up Shiro and Glint (signets? why?..)

Revenant’s energy is a call back to GW1’s energy, and in GW1 signets uniqueness were on the fact that they didn’t cost any energy to use. My guess is that their decision to add signets to glint might be so they can play with that idea.

But gw1 we started at full energy not half.

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Posted by: Roy.7405

Roy.7405

You have control as to what utilities you want to bring in the form of predefinied roles.
In case of revenant their utility skills serve identical roles to attunements. You swap to earth to gain tanky ability skills and boons. As revenant you swap to Jalis to get tanky abilities. Not much of a difference. It wont feel right if you start causing damage in earth with fire skills, and it wont feel right if you start causing conditions in Jalis.

Regarding that last point, there are many people who’d disagree. “it wont feel right if you start causing conditions in Jalis.” Switching between Mallyx and Jalis while using mace/hammer allowed me to (ideally, the utilities need improvements) switch between two slightly different styles of condition damage play, kind of like how stats can affect the way you play the same (Weapon+Utility) combination.

  • Mallyx would be a bruiser style damage dealer who is capable of staying in the thick of a fight for a moderate duration and reflecting some incoming damage back to enemies. (akin to Rabid stats)
  • Jalis would be the more tanky playstyle which is capable of staying in the center of a fight for long durations, while dealing slightly less damage. (Dire stats)
  • Ventari utility skills would provide a more team-defense oriented condi-user who is capable of assisting allies at the cost of less damage. (Settler’s stats)
  • Shiro skills would be a more bursty style condition user who is able to deal out a higher amount of damage than normal, but can’t stay in the center of a fight for long due to a lack of defensive stats or utils. (Rampager stats)

Edit: To clarify: I used Mallyx for damage and Jalis for tanking/cc, all the while using condition damage as my main source of damage. Mallyx did more damage, but I needed to pop into Jalis quite a few times for the stability/tanking abilities.
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On another note, I wouldn’t want legends to simply affect a weapon’s skills because the legend weapon skills probably wouldn’t suit the armor stats you chos; Jalis and Mallyx skills/conditions for mace/axe probably wouldn’t benefit equally from armor with the Condition Damage stat. It also still wouldn’t solve the core Melee vs Ranged problem. You’d still be locked into 2 playstyles like most other professions, but would critically lack the important ability to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight.

How I arrived at the playstyle count (based on weapons and utilities):
2| Warrior | (WeaponSet1+Utils),(WeaponSet2+Utils)
2| Revenant| (WeaponSet+Utils1),(WeaponSet+Utils2) ((Currently))
4| Ele | (Fire+Utils),(Water+Utils),(Air+Utils),(Earth+Utils)
Ele and engis can arguably be higher depending on how you count conjures/kits. I’d prefer to see Rev’s in the 4 playstyle-category, as the heavy armor class, with the unique combination of:
4|Rev|(WeaponSet1+Utils1),(WeaponSet1+Utils2),(WeaponSet2+Utils1),(WeaponSet2+Utils2)

While locking each weaponset to a specific legend (ex: letting the user choose axe for Mallyx, hammer for Ventari) would solve the melee vs ranged problem, it feels like it could be unnecessarily limiting when you can have more variety; 4 playstyles instead of just 2. Regardless, how/if weapon swapping is implemented will make the difference between the perception of how hard the class is to play; the difference between a basic warrior build vs a sophisticated ele/engi build.

(edited by Roy.7405)

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Posted by: Loex.5104

Loex.5104

Also, it might sound silly, but having a Ventari legend with no swiftness options other than a traited staff and no built in 25% movement increase feels a bit off, “I can outrun a centaur” and all.

Doesn’t sound Silly :-)

Stuff like this would perfectly fit into some kind of passive buff that gives you +XYZ while channeled to a Legend.

Ventari: 25% Speed + X Healing Power / Regeneration / whatever
Jalis: +X toughness + chance to gain protection if hitted by an enemy (internal cd)
Mallyx: +Condi-DMG / duration + chance to rip off boon of foe on hit/crit/dodge whatever
Shiro: +Power / Ferocity / precision +chance to rein energy on hit/crit
(all traitable in the according line to maybe be a group buff – or maybe kind of necro heal signet style that you mark the enemy for a period of time after Legend Swap and all allys gain sth if they hit them )

edit: Numbers can be adjusted easily – but thats the only way i can see to compensate the fact that the legnds are tied to different stats (Ventari Heal / Mallyx Condi-dmg …) – a Guardian can equip at least a +healingpower staff and a warrior a +CondiDMG Sword or a +vitality +tougness shield to be a little more effective with it (also the additional signets inside the weapons count) – legend passives should compensate this a little bit

(edited by Loex.5104)