Guild Wars 2

Well I understand that the trap won’t be used during combat, but it can be quite easily set up for defending camps, I mean thieves would have a incredibly difficult time taking down one veteran with no stealth.

What if it’s a group comprised of something like 3 thieves trying to take a camp while only one guy is defending it. He can quite easily put a trap down and prevent the thieves from using any of their strongest skills. The guards alone would be able to take care of them.

Good for me, traps don’t exist in sPvP, I don’t take my thief WvW’ing, my other classes will have a far easier time killing thieves.

Now, does that mean it’s fair? Nope. But it sure does benefit me!

evilapprentice.6379:

Let’s lobby for traps that remove protection/regen/stability and make the player immune to them for 30s.

Oh, also, one that renders block and invulnerability usesless for 30s.

guys cmon lets spread this!!!!!!!!!!

This patch was good for me in one way: It didn’t add a new nerf to sPvP thief. Since I play mostly PvP now because the rewards for WvW are negligible/virtually nonexistent anyway and PvP at least lets me fashion infinite builds like a sandbox mode…I don’t really care much about WvW nerfs anymore.

headshot to prevent the trap casting or tactical strike ?
or any daze/stun/interrupt ???

Vermintide.5023:

Hmm… Yeah I knew something didn’t sound right there. I will admit, I’m no expert, but if after 8 months the community STILL hasn’t found a way to make the thief useful OTHER than as a stealth assassin… Maybe they should be looking into that too?

What I’m saying is, people need to stop crying about nerfs to their class, but equally, I think it must be taken into consideration WHY people are so defensive. Stealth is a very contentious issue for the thief, and I guess it revolves around this question: Is stealth the only thing that makes a thief worthwhile?

This is my concern. It feels too much like you just can’t match the defensive power of stealth with anything else in a thief build. Up until now it hasn’t been too much of an issue, because 1) investing in a defensive option is good & necessary and 2) that defensive option (stealth) did work pretty well! But the natural adaptation to having that option removed from you (like what these traps can do) is to find another. And I’m just not sure there is one, yet. Maybe (hopefully!) there is a strong defense that a thief can invest in that isn’t stealth that is equally powerful with similar investment, but I’m very worried there just isn’t.

If they want to waste 15 badges (yes, it’s 15 badges AND 500 karma) to stop me from trolling them for 30s, they are welcome.

Yes, because people in WvW are only going to use their supply to setup a single trap that can be triggered/consumed by any enemy … including those who have no stealth.

Aveneo.2068:

Oh, come on! Some of you guys really think you’re the center of the universe… Newsflash: the world doesn’t revolve around the thief.

This new trap’s main purpose is to stop the Veil-zerg; nothing more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veil

If this is the only goal I think it would have been much more intelligent to simply limit the maximum number of affected players of this skill, just like they did for the Portal skill.

Vermintide.5023:

Wait a minute, so… By giving a relatively easily accessible item with which anyone can effectively and completely counter one of the most useful aspects of the thief’s class, players will be forced to look for new and less stealth-reliant ways to play their class effectively.

Right?

Hmm… Yeah I knew something didn’t sound right there. I will admit, I’m no expert, but if after 8 months the community STILL hasn’t found a way to make the thief useful OTHER than as a stealth assassin… Maybe they should be looking into that too?

What I’m saying is, people need to stop crying about nerfs to their class, but equally, I think it must be taken into consideration WHY people are so defensive. Stealth is a very contentious issue for the thief, and I guess it revolves around this question: Is stealth the only thing that makes a thief worthwhile?

Evidently a lot of the playerbase (and thieves themselves) seem to think so, or would like to think so. The issue here is not one about the “purpose” of these traps, but the consequences it will have, regardless of who it was targeted at. Many seem to feel that the thief is being neutered with all this stealth shenanigans. Not many folks like the prospect of being a eunuch.

Alas… Time vill tell. Time vill tell.

(Also I think a big part of the problem is that people who play MMOs are in many cases autistic kittentards, discuss.)

Thieves indeed do have other options of combat without utilizing stealth. Examples are the D/D unicorn death blossom spam build, S/P pistol whip spam build, S/D flanking strike spam build, P/P unload spam build and shortbow builds.

What do these things all have in common(except maybe shortbow)? They all require the spamming of one ability which seems to be even more frowned upon by the community.

Do you want to know why thieves need to spam these abilities? Because they tend to provide some kind of evasion i.e to avoid damage outside of stealth, thieves do have other abilities sure but without utilizing spamming or stealth thieves don’t really have good damage migration.

Also the problem with these builds (with the exception of S/D and maybe Shortbow) are easily countered and have no real effect on good players .Also Shortbow builds are only really effective against multiple foes.

Thieves really are lacking in ways to protect themselves outside of stealth, maybe because stealth is slightly too strong.

Tauril.8504:

Aveneo.2068:

Oh, come on! Some of you guys really think you’re the center of the universe… Newsflash: the world doesn’t revolve around the thief.

This new trap’s main purpose is to stop the Veil-zerg; nothing more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veil

If this is the only goal I think it would have been much more intelligent to simply limit the maximum number of affected players of this skill, just like they did for the Portal skill.

The issue with that is that Mesmer Veil is not limited. It appears to be the “tradeoff” in exchange for it not stacking stealth with anything.

Also … if thieves are still wanting to be able to dive into a zerg, kill someone, and get out without using stealth, take a lesson from Rangers.

• Withdraw
• Roll for initiative

Use both of these and see how much distance you get. It works even better with Sword:

• Infiltrator’s Strike
• Shadow Return

There’s also:

• Shadow Step
• Shadow Return

Dr Zoidberg.2046:

Daecollo.9578:

Of course the problem is it takes 4 seconds to place those traps, so once you see a veil it will be too late.

They last for an hour. It can be placed beforehand with proper scouting.

Is it like other traps where you can only set one active at a time and setting another destroys the first?
Seems like something you’d want to know

evilapprentice.6379:

Let’s lobby for traps that remove protection/regen/stability and make the player immune to them for 30s.

Oh, also, one that renders block and invulnerability usesless for 30s.

This is what bothers me most. Why create a trap that only targets one class?
That’s discrimination .-. What does the other trap do?

Aveneo.2068:

This new trap’s main purpose is to stop the Veil-zerg; nothing more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veil

The thief isn’t the center of the universe.

Thief might not be the center of the universe, but it IS the center of this subforum that you just posted in. Did you not expect thieves to discuss the way this trap affects them? ’Cause aside from the main purpose you so dubiously derived from this trap; 30 seconds of revealed is A LOT for a thief. Either way you look at it.

You seem bitter towards thieves.. it’s okay we don’t mind, you’re not the first and not the last; thieves will still love you enough to want to stick their daggers up your derriere.
As for me I have faith the trap won’t be as bad as it sounds for the most of us, if it does it doesn’t matter as I’ve become quite stoic towards all the nerfs really.

Aveneo.2068:

TooBz.3065:

Aveneo.2068:

This new trap’s main purpose is to stop the Veil-zerg; nothing more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veil

The thief isn’t the center of the universe.

What’s your basis … other than to be contrary.

I say this was made to stop a thief from being able to harass through repeated use of c&d.

Which is ok. But 30 seconds??? That’s insane.

My basis is the fact that thieves believe they own copyrights on anything related to stealth. I just throw some cold water in their faces and tell them to wake up.

Remember that this trap requires supply and 4s to be placed. So it’s not something you drop at your feet on a whim just because a thief starts to c&d all over the place.

Trust me, I don’t need traps to deal with thieves.

So to me this change simply serves as a deterrent against the zerg mentality where everyone just blindly rushes into a keep with Mesmer’s slamming down Veil in front.

So the main purpose is to stop Veil and sacrifice the Thief.
Show some respect to thieves, stealth is our main mechanic.
Staying behind you and not getting attention is what we do.
And ofcourse, we know the enemy will not place the trap while fighting with us, yet, with the cheap cost of them, I won’t be amazed if they are everywhere.
Even they are not EVERYWHERE, simply place them in camp is enough to kill us, with the 30SECS REVEALED.

Do u get our meaning? Sir, L2Read ^^

Obviously not balanced…But in other hands the stealth discussion has been going for months now. And while it was obvious stealth was not balanced thieves tried to deny it to keep their advantage instead of discussing about reasonable (and balanced) solutions. And here is the result… You didn’t want balance, you don’t have balance(huge nerf instead)… Next time you should try helping to find appropriate solutions more than protecting your interests…

The revealed can stack up to 10 minutes.

This is utterly infuriating.

I expect they intended this to be a rarely used counter measure against stealth abusers inside keeps and such. (The “counter a zerg veil” idea posited earlier is complete nonsense.) The problem is the usage will go far beyond that and into lots of small scale fighting. It will translate into a surprisingly affordable shot on auto-killing thieves.

Here’s the thing people have to realize – lots of WvW players have stacks and stacks of badges sitting unused with nothing useful to spend them on. Many of them also have huge amounts of karma sitting around, too. For a new player trying to get outfitted, yes…the cost is prohibitive. But for serious WvW players, the cost is entirely inconsequential. Running around with 10 supply is no big deal either, especially if a person is a roamer and not actively serving as a supply zombie.

So, people sitting around thinking, “Oh, but it’s sooo expensive and sooo inconvenient. No one will actually bother using this unless it’s really important and for wholesome and intended purposes against evil stealth cheaters.” Think again…people will be out abusing this trap and laughing the whole time.

I am one of those people with stacks and stacks of badges and karma. How would another thief ever beat me or even be able to merely run away if I just stealth drop a trap (so that I cannot be interrupted) and then watch them get 30s sitting duck debuff? Thief vs. Thief merely turns into who can drop a trap first.

There should NEVER be a consumable item in game that translates into a free kill on a player, not at any cost. That’s exactly what these traps are – free kill a thief.

silvos.3092:

Obviously not balanced…But in other hands the stealth discussion has been going for months now. And while it was obvious stealth was not balanced thieves tried to deny it to keep their advantage instead of discussing about reasonable (and balanced) solutions. And here is the result… You didn’t want balance, you don’t have balance(huge nerf instead)… Next time you should try helping to find appropriate solutions more than protecting your interests…

To be fair. No one came here with any balanced or reasonable suggestions either. There’s just been a kittenload of QQing all over the place.

I remember someone posting that to get a feeling for guild wars 2 a person should play the two classes that are broken and cannot be fixed… the ranger and the thief.

Also, a lot of thieves suggested that any discussion of stealth was premature because of culling which extended stealth skills 50-100% too long and essentially eliminated the reveal debuff (cause the thief woudn’t render until the debuf was gone anyway).

I can tell you from someone who doesn’t play a thief in WvW, my intention for this trap is for one purpose only…. keep/tower sweeps. That’s it.

I guess the purpose of this trap is to stop Zergs using veil to stealth around, but this will by far hit thieves hardest. No defense, burst or escapability if we’re lucky enough to trigger one (or if one of our friends trigger one and I’m within range).

ANet doing stuff without ever thinking about all the side effects, why am I not surprised….

Geiir.7603:

I guess the purpose of this trap is to stop Zergs using veil to stealth around, but this will by far hit thieves hardest. No defense, burst or escapability if we’re lucky enough to trigger one (or if one of our friends trigger one and I’m within range).

ANet doing stuff without ever thinking about all the side effects, why am I not surprised….

If you honestly think thieves don’t have burst, escapability, etc. without stealth, then there is a serious learn to play issue here.

It seems to be the one that is rampant amongst the thief community and why it has been stagnant for so long as far as new ideas.

Do thieves realize they still have insane mobility if they have to run? You still have infiltrator’s arrow, shadowstep, sword 2, and HS is a leap. Are you saying that you can’t fight at all if your enemies can see you, or you lose the ability to reset fights with a 5-2 combo? Thieves can still get away if they are hit with this trap, you just won’t be invisible (which is close to invulnerability when running – you can’t be detected or targeted with ranged attacks and nobody knows what direction you went). I applaud the WvW for using methods within their capability to try to balance an imbalanced mechanic (I am assuming nobody on the WvW team has a say in class balance).

TooBz.3065:

To be fair. No one came here with any balanced or reasonable suggestions either. There’s just been a kittenload of QQing all over the place.

Well I proposed to make revealed duration proportional to the time spent in stealth (to stop the perma stealth without affecting the dynamic use of the mechanic). The numbers I thought about at the time would have allowed thieves to 50% time stealthed (66 if traited) and allowed those numbers to change if needed while keeping the balance between short stealth period and long one. But now obviously 66% was not enough for the QQers and was too much for the thieves (why would they sacrifice their 80-90% time stealthed? For balance? No way…). So off course no one paid attention and there were only few other propositions (I saw none from the thieves…if they obviously know what they need they only fought for what they wanted…which was not acceptable…).

But here we are and you lost your precious 80-90% (and depending on situation you are not even sure to get the 50%) and even worse you lost the ability to choose when to use this stealthed time… So I hope next time you’ll remember how anet fixes balance problems when they are not given a good idea by the community…Their method is called “Isaiah’s Balance” and you prefer to avoid it at any cost…

This patch is the last straw for the thief community , I really hope you guys are ready to yell and claw this forum. For what it’s worth this game is ruined by each patch comming.

Now begins the era of everyone rolling s/d evasion heavy thief in wvw.

The idea that this trap is intended to be a counter for “zerg veils” is just wrong on so many levels…

Problem 1 – 30s of revealed. Who cares if you give a bunch of players who can’t stealth anyway 30s of revealed? It’s meaningless. The trap could have 3s revealed and be just as useful for that purpose. It could have no revealed at all and be good for everything outside chained veils. If it was for veils, it wouldn’t have 30s revealed.

Problem 2 – 4s channel is supposed to be dropped in front of a coordinated zerg and they run through it? Zerg veils are most powerful in open field combined with unexpected movements. (Flanking, etc.) You cannot predict where they are going to go, and then get there 5+s ahead of time, drop a rather conspicious 4s channel in front of them, and then expect them to kindly run through it while stealthed.

Problem 3 – who cares if you strip away a couple seconds of stealth??? They’re not going to restealth. It just doesn’t do notable harm. If you knew where they would be well enough to premptively drop a 4s channel, you know where they are well enough to aoe burn them down even without seeing them. I’ve done this all the time with my guild…enemy veil rushes (open field or through a portal/gate door) and all we do is lay down CC and aoe damage right where we expect them to be and they pop out of stealth all laying on the ground downed. Why bother trying to destealth them? Let them have their false sense of security.

Problem 4 – If the intention is nerfing veil, then nerf veil! Put an affected target cap on it. Make it un-chainable somehow.

Problem 5 – This consumable is much more effective against thieves and in small scale situations than it is in large scale veil situations.

and they whinnied about us running

BlackBeard.2873:

Do thieves realize they still have insane mobility if they have to run? You still have infiltrator’s arrow, shadowstep, sword 2, and HS is a leap. Are you saying that you can’t fight at all if your enemies can see you, or you lose the ability to reset fights with a 5-2 combo? Thieves can still get away if they are hit with this trap, you just won’t be invisible (which is close to invulnerability when running – you can’t be detected or targeted with ranged attacks and nobody knows what direction you went). I applaud the WvW for using methods within their capability to try to balance an imbalanced mechanic (I am assuming nobody on the WvW team has a say in class balance).

Do non thieves realise that talking without knowledge of the profession and babbling nonsense on that particular profession forum makes them look dumb?

Back on topic, no other profession gets as much penalty as a thief with these trap all other professions can simply ignore it, “aw well vail didn’t work… just get into them” the thief profession will not be able to use ANY of its stealth abilities nor the abilities we get from being is stealth as well as the benefits from the traits (including a 30 point one) for half a minute!! this leaves us with 2 choices: 1) go full evade spaming or 2) bring your alt instead…

if you ask me it is too kitten cheap… I play very casually (about 10h per week) and i have almost 2 million karma…

Not to mention that EVERY profession besides the thief can tank a thief for 4s wile arming the trap… (Protection/invulnerability/block/Deathshroud/Mistform/Retaliation/zero dmg)

every one will have these traps at all times and will be /laughing at thieves in wvwvw.

I do not have an alt so… i better start working on that!

silvos.3092:

But here we are and you lost your precious 80-90% (and depending on situation you are not even sure to get the 50%) and even worse you lost the ability to choose when to use this stealthed time… So I hope next time you’ll remember how anet fixes balance problems when they are not given a good idea by the community…Their method is called “Isaiah’s Balance” and you prefer to avoid it at any cost…

If you look at the Mesmer forums, there were suggestions for “fixing” confusion damage and Anet essentially decided to destroy the viability of the build, as they did with spirit weapon guardians, spirit rangers, (there may be more, but I have less than perfect recall). So I don’t think it’s reasonable to say this is all on the thieves.

80-90% in stealth was only supportable by perma-stealth thieves who c&d just as they get out of stealth. Annoying for sure. For most thieves it’s probably more like 40-50%.

I actually don’t know what this is going to do to the meta. I just know that 30 seconds is a really long time in a fight. I don’t know if the trap is visible or invisible. I don’t know if you can trigger it by aggroing a bunny rabbit and having it chase you over the trap.

A visible trap is only a problem in a zerg, cause some kitten is going to trip it. In small group roaming a thief can easily avoid it.

An invisible one is more complicated.

Brassnautilus.2941:

and they whinnied about us running

Only if you spent the last 10 minutes chasing us, caught us, got your butt handed to you and your lunch money stolen, then ran off

… only to chase us again.

It gets annoying. If you’re going to come at me, make sure one of us dies … if you can’t … go find someone you can kill. I have badges to reap from your allies.

Perhaps I’m old-school, but think Thunderdome had it right … “two men enter, one man leaves” … they didn’t mean “one man runs away after starting the fight … then comes back and starts it again only to run away again … and again”.

Daeqar.8965:

The idea that this trap is intended to be a counter for “zerg veils” is just wrong on so many levels…

When they first announce the anti-stealth traps and now reading how they work in the patch notes it really does come off to me like A-Net is trying to add a counter to stealthers inside keeps/towers. Which I’m glad to see given the plethora of stuff a thief can CnD off of in a keep. It can be incredibly frustrating to try and chase one down that’s inside. Plopping a stealth trap on top of a dead mesmer is going to be at least one place I always drop them among other places.

What I find interesting is that the Thief’s condition removal tool Shadow’s Embrace is now less effective when revealed by a trap. Not only they can’t stealth but, they can’t remove conditions either.

BlackBeard.2873:

Do thieves realize they still have insane mobility if they have to run? You still have infiltrator’s arrow, shadowstep, sword 2, and HS is a leap. Are you saying that you can’t fight at all if your enemies can see you, or you lose the ability to reset fights with a 5-2 combo? Thieves can still get away if they are hit with this trap, you just won’t be invisible (which is close to invulnerability when running – you can’t be detected or targeted with ranged attacks and nobody knows what direction you went). I applaud the WvW for using methods within their capability to try to balance an imbalanced mechanic (I am assuming nobody on the WvW team has a say in class balance).

Thief mobility is “good” when you can bookend it with stealth before and after. It runs out really fast if it’s the only thing you have to fall back on, and some other classes can actually do better in many situations. Thieves are nowhere near a competitive class without stealth.

Calae.1738:

What I find interesting is that the Thief’s condition removal tool Shadow’s Embrace is now less effective when revealed by a trap. Not only they can’t stealth but, they can’t remove conditions either.

Well then … adapt and have another source of condition removal … or be more careful for those 30 seconds you are revealed … you have the mobility to dictate when you do/don’t fight … you’re a thief.

silvos.3092:

Well I proposed to make revealed duration proportional to the time spent in stealth ….

Then thief would be deleted because of fast rate C&D-Backstab chains

on a more serious note, we are the best class to place these traps. We can build it in their faces without them knowing.
we can go all out and stealth place traps whenever possible, make this backfire on them. it should also end thief-mesmer duels faster. If I had hit a trap, I’m running anyway.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

When they first announce the anti-stealth traps and now reading how they work in the patch notes it really does come off to me like A-Net is trying to add a counter to stealthers inside keeps/towers. Which I’m glad to see given the plethora of stuff a thief can CnD off of in a keep. It can be incredibly frustrating to try and chase one down that’s inside. Plopping a stealth trap on top of a dead mesmer is going to be at least one place I always drop them among other places.

That’s my perceived intent as well, and it’s well intentioned.

However, this solution is misguided even for that problem. They have also stated that corpse scouting is a problem they intend to solve. Just make dead characters automatically waypoint rez after 15s or 30s and then dead mesmers in keeps are no longer a threat…then a stealthed thief is no longer a threat either. Fixes corpse scouting, too. sPvP already forces waypoint rezzes.

This trap is just more bad side-effect than it is actual cure.

TooBz.3065:

80-90% in stealth was only supportable by perma-stealth thieves who c&d just as they get out of stealth. Annoying for sure. For most thieves it’s probably more like 40-50%.

I know that…and I know it was the perma stealth that was a problem. That’s why my solution tried to keep the stealth in reasonable values (where I saw a lot of proposition to completely destroy the mechanic). But no one even tried to think about it. And now all will pay…One abuse with a mechanic will result in it being nerfed and the game will suffer it…

TooBz.3065:

I actually don’t know what this is going to do to the meta.

Well thieves will probably rely more on evade or buy the other trap to make sure their target can’t use the anti-stealth trap (the trap cost 10 if you steal five the enemy can’t use it anymore…).

Brassnautilus.2941:

on a more serious note, we are the best class to place these traps. We can build it in their faces without them knowing.
we can go all out and stealth place traps whenever possible, make this backfire on them. it should also end thief-mesmer duels faster. If I had hit a trap, I’m running anyway.

As opposed to the Mesmer who is forced to fight you … lol.

Excellent example. Thanks for this.

Brassnautilus.2941:

… If I had hit a trap, I’m running anyway.

you and all thieves leaving the raid without our blasts to buff/heal them wile we hide behind a rock for 30 sec or waypoint to basecamp.

Sebrent.3625:

Also … if thieves are still wanting to be able to dive into a zerg, kill someone, and get out without using stealth, take a lesson from Rangers.

• Withdraw
• Roll for initiative

Use both of these and see how much distance you get. It works even better with Sword:

• Infiltrator’s Strike
• Shadow Return

There’s also:

• Shadow Step
• Shadow Return

There is of course the difference of Protection on Dodge roll, 2 slottable immune skills, 3 separate evade skills in Ranger S/D (one of which is amazing for escapes when used with some skill), roughly 4k better base HP, access to better regen uptime, and stronger heals, utility independent CC in pets…

Not saying it can’t be done, or that the thief doesn’t have separate advantages, but lets not trivialize the differences. Rangers have loads more survivability options, slightly more CC (thanks to pets) and mobility and evasion options that are only slightly worse than a thief, while a thief’s main advantage is Damage and IS/SS.

Daeqar.8965:

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

When they first announce the anti-stealth traps and now reading how they work in the patch notes it really does come off to me like A-Net is trying to add a counter to stealthers inside keeps/towers. Which I’m glad to see given the plethora of stuff a thief can CnD off of in a keep. It can be incredibly frustrating to try and chase one down that’s inside. Plopping a stealth trap on top of a dead mesmer is going to be at least one place I always drop them among other places.

That’s my perceived intent as well, and it’s well intentioned.

However, this solution is misguided even for that problem. They have also stated that corpse scouting is a problem they intend to solve. Just make dead characters automatically waypoint rez after 15s or 30s and then dead mesmers in keeps are no longer a threat…then a stealthed thief is no longer a threat either. Fixes corpse scouting, too. sPvP already forces waypoint rezzes.

This trap is just more bad side-effect than it is actual cure.

Well corpse scouting is only one of a few ways mesmers and thieves can do it to my limited understanding. I admit, I’m not an expert on all the ways to hide in a keep. I know one of the servers in my tier has a crew that’s sort of dedicated to stealth re-capping keeps and towers and have done so several times(and posted screen shots to rub our noses in it lol). I don’t think they were corpse scouting though, or at least I dont get the impression they were. And perhaps the stealth traps wont be effective to counter them. Time will tell I suppose.

evilapprentice.6379:

There is of course the difference of Protection on Dodge roll, 2 slottable immune skills, 3 separate evade skills in Ranger S/D (one of which is amazing for escapes when used with some skill), roughly 4k better base HP, access to better regen uptime, and stronger heals, utility independent CC in pets…

Not saying it can’t be done, or that the thief doesn’t have separate advantages, but lets not trivialize the differences. Rangers have loads more survivability options, slightly more CC (thanks to pets) and mobility and evasion options that are only slightly worse than a thief, while a thief’s main advantage is Damage and IS/SS.

Signet immunity requires 30 points in a traitline most Rangers hate.
Protect Me immunity requires the pet to stay alive … best with bear who is otherwise useless.
Neither immunity stops conditions.
Having both consumes 2 utility slots.

As far as 3 evasion skills for S&D: you have evasion on sword, dagger, shortbow … and no cooldown so you only have to manage evasion … not be stuck with a specific weapon set and watch 3 separate cooldowns. Ranger also has no way to reset cooldowns. Thief has ways to instantly gain initiative via skills/traits.

If you want to complain about “loads more CC” with pets … go fix pet AI. I love my pet, when he works. Picking pets also comes with checks and balances itself. The dogs don’t do as much damage as the birds/cats, but they bring more CC. The dogs aren’t that great with Protect Me because they don’t have the HP to soak up much damage (unlike bears and others).

Stronger heals? You have one that rolls you backwards, evades, and heals you and is on a 15 second cooldown. You can even get several seconds of Vigor from it … achieving much closer to 100% vigor up-time than a Ranger due to the fact that your heal is on a much shorter cooldown.

Then let’s not even start with the fact that that same traitline let’s you dodge much more with just normal dodge rolls. Yeah, it requires trait points, but so do the signets and Ranger protection on dodge.

I’d rather dodge more, taking 0% damage from more attacks than dodge less and take 33% less damage from attacks for 2s.

The fact that you think a Thief’s main advantage is damage shows me what level of play we’re talking about. Thief’s advantage is their ability to control a fight via their mobility and capability to adapt to a number of different builds using only a few different weapon skills. Stealth, when able to use it, is just icing on the cake that make it trivial for good thieves.

Grab a sword for one of your weapon sets and learn the power of Infiltrator’s Strike + Shadow Return … the only weapon skill in the game that is a real stunbreaker and condition removal as well as a 1,200 range teleport (it actually works farther than that).

Thief community has far too many players that want to gripe more than simply learn to play [better].

offence.4726:

So we are supposed to try HARDER patch after patch just to stay alive now ? Faulty logic is FAULTY. Thank you come again.

My post was about being able to dive in. If you are diving in first and there is a trap, yeah … so sorry you can’t just stealth in/out griefing noobs if they put down a trap.

Otherwise, you can continue suckling on the stealth teet.

I’m a fan of people having multiple options and not being rewarded for stagnating in the lowest skill mode of their class.

Cute post though.

Go talk to Mesmers about the multiple 50% nerfs they’ve eaten and kept on being viable … that don’t even require people to spend tokens, karma, and supply, them to run over a specific area, etc. … just always applicable.

Some people gripe. Others adapt. The latter are and will always be the better players. Especially when the griping happens before there’s been any time to even experience the changes.

OK! I get where they are trying to go with this trap. However I can foresee there is going to be a lot of collateral damage (in respect to tactics and abilities).

FACT : This is NOT a stealth trap. It is a REVEALED TRAP. You don’t have to be in stealth to trigger it! This trap places 30 secs of reveal, regardless of stealth, on up to 20 players within range. Hence this is a REVEAL TRAP.

Too early, as of yet, to see where and when players use this and also how frequently.

I think it is overpowered mostly due to the fact that it gives you reveal regardless of using stealth. really does aim at the heart of thieves, because unfortunately our healing, regeneration, blinds, spike damage, initiative gain + regeneration, and also our defense is attached.

Also the other trap is 100 supply taken away from a zerg (5 per x 20 people if all hit) for only 10 supply. you could literally have a team of 10 just obliterate every zergs supply. or 10 teams of 5 per map just placing one infront of bay/hills/garrison at the very least….or go invis/invulerable and run out and drop them. idk so many ideas. have to see what happens. this one should prove interesting. its already very hard to siege a tower on t1 / t2 when there are people there to defend.

i suggested having a cleric/monk class on another forum….yes i know it would be close to guardian but a more aoe heal aoe blind aoe kd ray of judgement kinda character and maybe mass boons. anyway point is maybe it can make these battles last longer? i mean most zerg battles are what….like 15-20 seconds? alot of running and organizing for that short period of time. would be nice IMO to have a lil bit longer of battles….somwhere around 30-40 seconds. maybe the monnks could revive 3x faster with traits or something. idk just ideas.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

Daeqar.8965:

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

When they first announce the anti-stealth traps and now reading how they work in the patch notes it really does come off to me like A-Net is trying to add a counter to stealthers inside keeps/towers. Which I’m glad to see given the plethora of stuff a thief can CnD off of in a keep. It can be incredibly frustrating to try and chase one down that’s inside. Plopping a stealth trap on top of a dead mesmer is going to be at least one place I always drop them among other places.

That’s my perceived intent as well, and it’s well intentioned.

However, this solution is misguided even for that problem. They have also stated that corpse scouting is a problem they intend to solve. Just make dead characters automatically waypoint rez after 15s or 30s and then dead mesmers in keeps are no longer a threat…then a stealthed thief is no longer a threat either. Fixes corpse scouting, too. sPvP already forces waypoint rezzes.

This trap is just more bad side-effect than it is actual cure.

Well corpse scouting is only one of a few ways mesmers and thieves can do it to my limited understanding. I admit, I’m not an expert on all the ways to hide in a keep. I know one of the servers in my tier has a crew that’s sort of dedicated to stealth re-capping keeps and towers and have done so several times(and posted screen shots to rub our noses in it lol). I don’t think they were corpse scouting though, or at least I dont get the impression they were. And perhaps the stealth traps wont be effective to counter them. Time will tell I suppose.

Corpse scouting has a lot of uses – not just limited to stealth recaps. In the context Anet was talking about it, they were just unhappy with people suiciding or even just innocently dying somewhere and then just camera observing from the corpse as long as they wish and providing unlimited scouting information in voice chat or whatever about wall %’s, build site locations, enemy numbers, organizes for pushes, etc.

A mesmer being able to stay inside a keep as long as they wish while dead was another big problem. Mesmers purposely die beside walls/gates so that someone can rez them from the outside after however long. Once alive, portal right in.

Aveneo.2068:

TooBz.3065:

Aveneo.2068:

This new trap’s main purpose is to stop the Veil-zerg; nothing more.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veil

The thief isn’t the center of the universe.

What’s your basis … other than to be contrary.

I say this was made to stop a thief from being able to harass through repeated use of c&d.

Which is ok. But 30 seconds??? That’s insane.

My basis is the fact that thieves believe they own copyrights on anything related to stealth. I just throw some cold water in their faces and tell them to wake up.

Remember that this trap requires supply and 4s to be placed. So it’s not something you drop at your feet on a whim just because a thief starts to c&d all over the place.

*Trust me, I don’t need traps to deal with thieves. *

So to me this change simply serves as a deterrent against the zerg mentality where everyone just blindly rushes into a keep with Mesmer’s slamming down Veil in front.

W8 so thief isnt op ?

If this backfires im gonna be right here guys , sitting and watching the forum boil down and by the looks of it it’s comming.

@Sebrent ok , yes I also play mesmer strictly in tpvp/spvp so really im not worried about traps affecting him. I mainly play thief 1k hrs in it been playing for way too long and yes im very mad because our class is being shut down patch after patch.

Sooner or later we will need to adapt to a build like Jumper X full on evade S/D thief heck why dont scrap stealth alltogether it wont be usefull anymore now that people will set traps for us.

Im sad..

Daeqar.8965:

Thief mobility is “good” when you can bookend it with stealth before and after. It runs out really fast if it’s the only thing you have to fall back on, and some other classes can actually do better in many situations. Thieves are nowhere near a competitive class without stealth.

This is simply not true. I have played a thief and am still one of the most mobile builds without using stealth (I s/d with shortbow, although s/d on both sets works well too for the sigil of energy). I can get around just fine, and survive well enough in fights with all the evades. Sure, its not as easy as an auto-reset button as stealth (stealth, shadow-shot, and then pop up 2500 range away), but there is still more than enough mobility and ports to get away from anyone. Sure, I have a couple stun-breaks on my bar, but that is just par for the course of everyone else. I am telling you guys that most thieves have relied on stealth as a massive crutch for so long. Without stealth, there are still great options there, and it feels a lot more like playing the same game everyone else is.

To clarify, getting away isn’t as easy as the 1 or 2 button auto-reset that stealth affords, but it is still no very hard.

Also, please don’t insult me just because I am glad there is a counter-play option to the frequent-stealth. I always considered that cheesy and no fun to play against, so I don’t do it myself.