Guild Wars 2

Fact: The only viable pvp build is D/P thief. (Daredevil won’t change that D/P is best)
Now, it isn’t overpowered, on the contrary it’s about balanced compared to other classes. However, if you look at the other weaponsets with their respective traits they are underperforming.

(UPDATED)
How the other weapon sets should be fixed:
— Pistol (assuming power builds)

• Sneak Attack: Low damage overall and unlike in the case of Backstab you get revealed even if your attack is evaded since most of the time your first or last shot reveals you while they evade all the other bullets possibly. (up the dmg! maybe gradually each hit could hit more)
• Autoattack: still very low physical damage. This needs further dmg increase.(sb1 deals more dmg and also bounces)
• Body Shot: due to its short duration it has no use on p/p and little use on p/d. What pistol builds lack is survivability so I would change Body Shot to a skill (Reload) that evades backwards functioning as a leap finisher (in case of black powder change) and maybe cause poison on next hit since pistol is supposed to be a condi weapon more or less. (P/P and P/D aren’t like D/P, you actually need initiative to deal dmg so you lose a lot more by comboing stealth)
• Unload: damage got overbuffed while remaining a boring spammable skill. – so I’d lower back its damage to previous patch’s but add a stealth granting effect if all the shots hit succesfully.
• Black Powder: change duration to 2s, tick blind every sec. Too long of a duration and the blind effects are not consistent enough if they are only every 2s.
  Hearseeker could still be cast in it twice and the field could still pulse out 3 blinds(0,1 and 2 s) + the projectile combo. Keep in mind, currently it also pulses out 3 blinds(at 0,2,4 s)
  Or leave it as it is but reduce leap combo stealth duration form 3s to 2s.

—Sword

• Tactical Strike(stealth): damage is lower than any of the autoattack chain. In short: I’d suggest autochain3 dmg.
  In detail: I know it’s built around the idea of soft cc but still. A stealth attack is supposed to hit at least slightly more than autoattack. Mostly it is not even worth coming out of stealth with the stealth attack but you are better off landing an infiltrator’s strike for immobilize or flanking strike(especially against enemies hitting the air/other ppl)+larcenous strike if you have basi venom. Soon, even the upcoming dodge mechanic, Bound, is gonna be a better attack to break stealth…
  Normalize daze duration between pve and wvw (1.5s vs 2s).
• Autoattack: the cripple from AA3 should be caused earier like on AA1 or AA2, reason being that you can barely land AA3 or Larcenous Strike because they get outran or your foes circle around you and you fail to hit with their super-narrow hit-cone. AA3 needs a broader hit-cone. AA1’s aftercast is too long, you have to wait about a second to use flanking strike after AA1; a dagger AA hits 3 times before you land the second hit on sword, so please, shorten the aftercast.
• Infiltrator’s Strike: could become a leap finisher(but not Infiltrator’s return).(in case of black powder change).
• Flanking Strike: its main function is the evade but it queues up with skills you currently cast. Please make it cancel whatever you are casting and evade straight away like Disabling Shot.
• Larcenous Strike: should be reversed to steal 2 boons as landing it is very difficult especially since Flanking strike doesn’t swap unless you successfully hit with it in the first place. Larcenous needs broader hit-cone.
• Pistol Whip: such a vulnerable skill on a melee thief weapon is not viable. I’d suggest splitting it into 2 skills -similarly to Flanking strike- so the first press would cast the stun phase for 2 initiative and then flip into the second part -which you don’t have to activate immediately but you have like 7secs to do that- this should flip even if you don’t hit a target with it. The second phase would cost 4 initiative and would be the heavy hitting, immobile, evading strikes part. Without this change you are too slow against other zerkers.

—Dagger

• Death Blossom: evade duration must go up to 1/2s, and has to deal more physical dmg. To prevent spamming it and add more play, it would mark your foe and switch -if any of the attacks hit- into a second skill(Marked for Death) that lets you shadowstep to the foe first hit by the Death Blossom for additional initiative (3?) like Shadow Trap. This would have the range limitation of 900 or 1200 and if the teleport is not used in the following 6 seconds or so, the skill would reset back to Death Blossom.
  A possible example:
  Marked for Death: activating it stealths you, teleports behind/to your foe also inflicting vulnerability. (counterplay: vulnerability lets them know that you are coming)
  Alternatively it could just teleport to your foe and hit them similarly to Shadow Shot’s damage part.
• Cloak and Dagger: this skill is very difficult to hit opposed to the smoke field+heartseeker combo. Using it puts you at risk as a thief so it should either reward a succesful hit with a bit longer stealth duration or blind application.

—Staff

• Debilitating Arc(the evade) should be ground targeted like Whirlwind attack for warriors (gs3) so you don’t have to turn your back to your enemies if you decide to evade through them.
• Dust Strike could get the same treatment I proposed for Death Blossom (hitting an enemy marks them for shadowstep because staff lacks thief elements like shadowstep and stealth)
• Vault would be glad to receive a range increase to 900.

—Shortbow

• Disabling shot: remove the walking part from the end of the skill. Using it while facing towards your foe makes you character move back towards them a bit which looks like you character was stuck. I suppose this bug was created when they optimized it for running away: When you turn your back to you foe, start running and then disabling shot them, you continue running away from them seamlessly even at the end of the shot.(first I thought this shot doesn’t have enough range because they hit me with melee attacks by the end of it but I realized this is just the outcome of the bug)
• Choking gas: needs poison duration increase on last tick(up to 6 s from 2 s)which would be 9s duration in total. Since poison stacks in intensity this skill only stacks 5s of poison, before that it was 8s(assuming they stand in it) which was already low compared to engineers poison grenades for example(used to go up to 20s+ poison)
• Infiltrator’s arrow: needs to calculate shadowstep eligibility from the location it has been started casting at rather than your location when the arrow lands, this would prevent many “invalid path”s. You can’t afford in combat to stand in place while the arrow flies.

—From a condi perspective
Sadly thief doesn’t have a dedicated condition set, the closest one is P/D. The easiest solution to add more condition based builds would be adding condis via traits. For example a possible trait: Knee Pain: inflict torment upon causing cripple.(synergy with dagger 4 / caltrops etc.) [acrobatics has place for condi traits]

—Future trait possibilites

• I’ve seen suggestions regarding traits rewarding shadowstepping; a trait could give might or fury per shadowstep for example, this would go hand-in-hand with the suggestions I’ve made to Dust Strike and Death Blossom.
• The murdered Acrobatics traitline could serve as a place for adding condition traits(remove Guarded Initiation)
  —as well as merging some on-evade traits that are not effective enough as themselves(like merging steal recharge with initiative gain on evade)
  —Assassin’s reward can also be removed or reworked (rework ideas: heal per shadowstep or heal for ~150 per successful evade with a 1s ICD per 6 evades which would mean u can heal 150*6=900 every sec but only if you evade 6 attacks.)

P.S. thx for MadVisions and a few forum threads for some of the ideas.

DA would not like to receive ground targeting, thank you very much. But I agree on some of what you said. I just do NOT want them making DA something I have to pre-set or has a cast time- then it loses a serious bit of functionality.

Serious Thought.5394:

DA would not like to receive ground targeting, thank you very much. But I agree on some of what you said. I just do NOT want them making DA something I have to pre-set or has a cast time- then it loses a serious bit of functionality.

Well true, not everyone would like it that way.
I was assuming using instant ground targeting so with that it’s just as instant as it is now except u also get to pick which way you evade without turning your camera around which is not optimal at all for an evade skill.

With ground targeting you have to pre-cast how you want to move it. That means the Bound->Steal->DA combo dies. This is a bad change. I do not want to lose a 10k instant damage combo. Please stop suggesting this, you are going to murder bound. Same with dodge toggles, stop you will murder bound. I like Bound.

Pistol: Give 1200 range, add ways for mainhand pistol to apply more conditions (including on unload).
Sword: I play it and rarely have those problems, but I guess they are good. Minus pistol whip, do not change pistol whip at all.
Dagger: Unless you plan to straight buff (no extra nerfs, straight buff), do not touch DB. Cloak and Dagger is hard to land for dual dagger only, look into my post history for a skill called Rook Takes Knight and you will agree it fixes things.
Staff: Do not touch the staff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgiK-HWKPjw as in keep your station clear, unless you plan to bugfix. Vault needs more range yes, but DA needs to have its unblockable interaction checked and DS needs to have its damage application via spamming checked (post history again).
Shortbow: Yes. Agrees, yes.

Sorry to nitpick, but I felt it was rude to just say no touch my staff. =) Hope I helped a bit.

Serious Thought.5394:

With ground targeting you have to pre-cast how you want to move it. That means the Bound->Steal->DA combo dies. This is a bad change. I do not want to lose a 10k instant damage combo.

Ok…

Will only comment on S/D:

Tactical Strike damage should remain how it is, the daze duration should be the same as in PVE/WvW though, making it more rewarding to land. As of now, you can barely finish the 2nd AA chain.

I agree on the auto attack changes though, The 2nd chain should apply the cripple and the 3rd the weakness. Aftercast on AA2 is kittening terrible aswell.

Flanking strike queing won’t ever be fixed, people have been demanding this change for well over 2 years already. They can either reintroduce precasting flanking strike or reverting to 2 boons, but seeing how many builds and runes just kitten out boons these days I’d rather want the precast back in order to have some minor burst damage.

CnD needs blind instead of vuln

Even with these changes S/D wouldn’t be viable though. Nerf SA and you may get build diversity again.

laquito.5269:

Tactical Strike damage should remain how it is, the daze duration should be the same as in PVE/WvW though, making it more rewarding to land. As of now, you can barely finish the 2nd AA chain.

Yeah thats also weird that it’s 2sec in wvw and 1.5s in pvp. But I still stand by the dmg increase

laquito.5269:

Will only comment on S/D:
Nerf SA and you may get build diversity again.

This is not a sollution.

On the other hand i agree with you.
I came up with these changes recently:
Blinding powder now grants combo field for 2 secs instead of 4 (in pvp [pve and pvp balance should have been split since release. GW1 got it’s history in this… pls take example]).
In this case Thief should have ‘f3’ and ‘f4’ abilityes :=

‘f3’ :=
cast time = 1sec
cooldown = ~40 sec
Effect: stealth yourself and nearby allyes for 6 seconds

‘f4’ :=
cast time = instant
cooldown = ~40 sec
Effect: stealth yourself for 4sec && gain protection for 4sec.

MadVisions.4529:

snippet

I can see where this idea is coming from, but I don’t think thief needs any more stealth.
Quite frankly this would make D/P SA even better due to more stealth access.

Simply put: You can’t buff anything stealth related without buffing D/P SA. So in order to get any build diversity you can buff Acro or nerf SA. As it stand right now though they would have to add things to acro that would be blatently OP to let it compete with SA.

Shadow Arts has to much easymode passive traits that make this spec far more forgiving than anything else. As long as it stays Low Risk High Reward nobody right in their mind will ever play anything else in tPvP, hence its meta.

laquito.5269:

Simply put: You can’t buff anything stealth related without buffing D/P SA. So in order to get any build diversity you can buff Acro or nerf SA.

The expac is almost out so you won’t have to take acro anymore, I feel like it’s more about the weapon sets than the traitlines from that point. Staff is not gonna replace anything but s/d will be in a much better place(still worse than d/p). The other weaponsets are further down below that. That’s why i suggested improvements that seemed rightful to these weaponsets.

laquito.5269:

MadVisions.4529:

snippet

I can see where this idea is coming from, but I don’t think thief needs any more stealth.
Quite frankly this would make D/P SA even better due to more stealth access.

Simply put: You can’t buff anything stealth related without buffing D/P SA. So in order to get any build diversity you can buff Acro or nerf SA. As it stand right now though they would have to add things to acro that would be blatently OP to let it compete with SA.

Shadow Arts has to much easymode passive traits that make this spec far more forgiving than anything else. As long as it stays Low Risk High Reward nobody right in their mind will ever play anything else in tPvP, hence its meta.

Putting CiS back to master tier and reverting SE nerf won’t power creep d/p it will be enough to give OH sets a chance then they can buff those.

Thats all good and I’d agree on those sword changes Kicker, but even daredevil won’t make S/D viable. I haven’t bought HoT yet, but I don’t get why people are so optimistic about DD being WAY better than Acro on S/D, I don’t see that yet.

Even with those changes you won’t be able to talk about build diversity, because diversity actually implies that there are builds just as good/nearly as good as D/P SA, which is not the case and probably won’t be unless SA gets nerfed.

No offense, but name anything that S/D or S/P clearly does better than D/P. Moreso name any weakness of D/P SA that isnt a weakness of the other builds aswell. The only thing that kept SA in line was the fact that it used to be tied to useless stats.

Maybe I’m biased here, but I guarantee we won’t see a meta shift unless Shadowarts gets a hefty nerf.

TLDR: D/P SA is in the same, if not worse, situation as D/D Ele

MadVisions.4529:

I came up with these changes recently:
Black powder now grants combo field for 2 secs instead of 4 (in pvp [pve and pvp balance should have been split since release.

Black powder has too long of a duration indeed and the blind effects are not consistent enough if they are only every 2s.
Hearseeker could still be cast in it twice and the field could still pulse out 3 blinds(0,1 and 2 s) + the projectile combo. So it’s a good idea. This way even sword 2 or pistol 2 could be given a leap finisher.

laquito.5269:

No offense, but name anything that S/D or S/P clearly does better than D/P.

Sword has better mobility disengage with sword 2.

laquito.5269:

Moreso name any weakness of D/P SA that isnt a weakness of the other builds aswell.

D/P hasn’t got evades but has everything else. They should just reduce Black powder duration and it will be fine. Permastealth is boring anyway

Kicker.8203:

D/P hasn’t got evades but has everything else. They should just reduce Black powder duration and it will be fine. Permastealth is boring anyway

That would be a nerf to any D/P spec. DA/CS/TR D/P is perfectly fine though. I’d also argue that the amount of blinds through Shadowshot more than make up for the lack of evades.

Nerfing a whole weaponset just to make another set viable can never be considered good balancing, hence I propose a Shadowarts nerf, which nerfs the eazymode build and leaves a skilled one untouched.

Your saying it yourself, permastealth is boring – this just screams “nerf SA”, because its the main culprit of thief balancing.

Edit: I’ve had this discussion like a month ago, if you’re truly interested you may read my older posts, it’s pointless to discuss this again, as I can see some whiteknights (not you) stepping in and claiming SA to be balanced.

laquito.5269:

Maybe I’m biased here, but I guarantee we won’t see a meta shift unless Shadowarts gets a hefty nerf.

TLDR: D/P SA is in the same, if not worse, situation as D/D Ele

It needs a fix rather. Shadow rejuv heals for 1/3 more if they double or tripple stealth because of the extra bugticks.
Dropping DA traitline for DD will be hurtful enough. Some ppl might decide to drop SA for DA/DD/Trickery

I have to disagree about pistols. Shortbow should be the go-to Power weapon, and in my opinion, it should have clusterbomb’s bleeding changed to vulnerability (not sure what skill you’d replace poison cloud with, though. Perhaps leave it as is). Really it should receive treatment like the sword.

Since dagger (moreso D/D) is the melee hybrid weapon, P/P should either stay as ranged hybrid, or finally give it a fitful place as condi-heavy. There are good arguments for turning P/P into a power spec, but there are no excuses for nerfing the best condi build thief has (Pistol mainhand), when that build isn’t even used in any metagame.

Starfleck.8392:

I have to disagree about pistols. Shortbow should be the go-to Power weapon, and in my opinion, it should have clusterbomb’s bleeding changed to vulnerability (not sure what skill you’d replace poison cloud with, though. Perhaps leave it as is). Really it should receive treatment like the sword.

Since dagger (moreso D/D) is the melee hybrid weapon, P/P should either stay as ranged hybrid, or finally give it a fitful place as condi-heavy. There are good arguments for turning P/P into a power spec, but there are no excuses for nerfing the best condi build thief has (Pistol mainhand), when that build isn’t even used in any metagame.

Shortbow is a part of any build even if you are condi so I must disagree, they should just add more condi traits.
Who talks about nerfing pistol? I’m only saying buffs. An evade+poison is good even if you don’t use the leap finisher.

I stand also behind blind on succesful CnD. It wouldn’t make d/P stronger since that set doesn’t have dagger as off-hand.

I like most of the ideas, but the death blossom and dust strike idea are bad. Dancing dagger needs the shadow step mark. It makes no sense on death blossom. Also, if you change black powder like that the init cost needs to go down.

Zodryn.4216:

I like most of the ideas, but the death blossom and dust strike idea are bad. Dancing dagger needs the shadow step mark. It makes no sense on death blossom. Also, if you change black powder like that the init cost needs to go down.

A bit overexaggerated but good point. These feel kind of lackluster because I haven’t given too much thought of these.
A simple teleport in pvp is very strong if it can be used while casting, while at the same time doesn’t make too much sense in PvE therefore it should do something else too like deal damage/grant stealth/ inflict vulnerability.

So the effect caused by dust strike and death blossom could be called for example Marked for Death, activating marked for death stealths you, teleports behind/to your foe also inflicting vulnerability. (counterplay: vulnerability lets them know that you are coming)

updated the original post.

Kicker.8203:

Zodryn.4216:

I like most of the ideas, but the death blossom and dust strike idea are bad. Dancing dagger needs the shadow step mark. It makes no sense on death blossom. Also, if you change black powder like that the init cost needs to go down.

A bit overexaggerated but good point. These feel kind of lackluster because I haven’t given too much thought of these.
A simple teleport in pvp is very strong if it can be used while casting, while at the same time doesn’t make too much sense in PvE therefore it should do something else too like deal damage/grant stealth/ inflict vulnerability.

So the effect caused by dust strike and death blossom could be called for example Marked for Death, activating marked for death stealths you, teleports behind/to your foe also inflicting vulnerability. (counterplay: vulnerability lets them know that you are coming)

The problem is, death blossom is used to mitigate damage with the evade and apply condi pressure. If you use it, you are right on top of them already. There is no need for a teleport, and it totally interrupts your flow. Stealth wouldn’t help either, as you’re then using a condi skill to set up a power skill.

Dancing dagger is used to pursue a target, so a teleport makes complete sense.

Dust strike makes more sense than death blossom, but it doesn’t really fit the feel of the kit. I’d prefer a line smoke field that you could vault through to gap close and gain stealth, setting up the leg sweep for knockdown.

About the Smoke field shortening part: in my opinion thieves especially with Shadow arts and trickery have way too much stealth. but I’m already happy if they implement most of the other suggestions/bugfixes.

(its also a buff in a way because it blinds more often)

I like the BP change overall, but it severely hinders stealth cost after it’s already been heavily nerfed (used to have 2 init on entering stealth, and before that 2 init every time you gained stealth). That’s why I recommend a lower init cost. It’s easy enough for people to just not stand in the field that I don’t think lower cost should be an issue.

Zodryn.4216:

The problem is, death blossom is used to mitigate damage with the evade and apply condi pressure.

Nobody wants Death Blossom & evade spam condi aids faceroll thief to be viable.

Zodryn.4216:

If you use it, you are right on top of them already. There is no need for a teleport, and it totally interrupts your flow.

Ppl in pvp tend to move/cripple/teleport/leap/go stealth etc. so a teleport is always good to have, especially if it grants stealth or something extra. D/D doesn’t have this chasing skill that d/p and sword has. By this logic Shadow Shot is the worst thing in the game because you are already on top of them since you have steal.

Zodryn.4216:

Stealth wouldn’t help either, as you’re then using a condi skill to set up a power skill.

Death Blossom is so bad because people spammed it all day and they had to nerf it.
If you let it be a spammable evade it has to be bad. If it isn’t spammable it can be buffed up. (evade frame and dmg).
D/D is either a hybrid or a power weaponset. Look at it as an evade skill rather than condi. It should also have more power damage though.

Zodryn.4216:

Dancing dagger is used to pursue a target, so a teleport makes complete sense.

Dancing dagger does not only belong to d/d. s/d and p/d have a teleport skill already and p/d is ranged. D/D, however, doesn’t have a good catch-up skill.

Zodryn.4216:

Dust strike makes more sense than death blossom, but it doesn’t really fit the feel of the kit. I’d prefer a line smoke field that you could vault through to gap close and gain stealth, setting up the leg sweep for knockdown

That would be good as well but then how are you gonna make them go back to work on Death Blossom and add a new flip skill to it, which it clearly needs? (They care about the new stuff only, but this way they can just copy it over)

The issue with ballerina thief or “aids” as @Kicker calls them is that just like panic shooters or “braindead” by some it that all you want to do is use #3 at least some s/p is slighty not the case but if 3 is all I have to press. Seriously d/d doesn’t provide reliable condi AA making SB necessary even with condi builds, just putting stuff on top of Death Blossom isn’t going to make it work just like putting damage on top of Unload. Stop it.

About Dancing Dagger let it grant you swiftness per foe hit,add blind to CnD.

If dagger training had longer duration poison and gave backstab guaranteed poison, dancing dagger applied torment as well as having a flip teleport for chasing, and CnD blinded, D/D would no longer be a 3 spam fest and would be a solid hybrid set.

As for dancing dagger being on S/D and P/D, I don’t see why that’s an issue. It works great for P/D as you could torment and teleport to them and then use 3 for more torment and a teleport away. Perfect synergy. S/D never uses 4 anyway but an extra teleport doesn’t hurt or help in any huge way.

-Pistol Whip make it like rapidfire, each hit landed on enemy stacks 1 or 2 vuln

So no explisive dmg but in hands of skilled player would be deadly on 2nd hit.

Buff players that stealth for short durations (3/5 sec) nerf stealth abusers(15 lololo), make survi traits based on revealt status(like if you applied revealt yo yourself you get 25% dmg reduc for the duration) instead of dmg reduc in stealth, Stealth is our mean to reposition and anbush, our way to deal dmg, i dont see much benefits from stealth tanking enemy (well mby if im rezzing someone with SR) .
There is revealt training – DPS revealt there should be also Defensive revealt.

And Rethink traits in acro, aside from [hard to catch] almost every other is kitten tier compared to any other traitline…

I’m just posting this to remind people that it’s still an issue and the expac doesn’t seem to solve the d/p domination.