Been playing an Acro build this week and mostly enjoying it. What I am finding though is that the trait line isn’t very acrobatic or mobile.
Expeditious Dodger swiftness is too short and really needs to be doubled.
Endless Stamina is a very very minor buff basically equating to roughly one extra dodge every 40s assuming a player can keep vigor on for the full 40s. I get they don’t want to give back the 3rd dodge bar but IMO this trait should refill endurance a set amount per evade.
Don’t Stop is mostly a rip off for a GM trait. It should be nearly as good as Unhindered Combatant maybe without the Swiftness, distance or damage reduction. It should also have a much shorter cooldown if it has one at all.
Upper Hand should have its Regen on 2s but the initiative gain per evade.
Assassin’s Reward is still under performing after its buff.
The bright spots are Pain Response, Hard to Catch and Feline Grace. Everything else is very meh or outright crap.
(edited by Straegen.2938)
For Swindlers the addition of 5 percent bonus to swords is a nice boon but I think it should be 10 percent much like staff mastery and than that skill worth it. That said I still use it in a current s/d build. Typically you can lower steal around 3 seconds in such a build (very hard to track) so while 5 percent more damage nice I think 10 percent not OP.
GI does in fact work very well and preferable to HTC in certain builds. These are builds that are designed around incoming sources of healing such as ones using assassins reward/ip and the like. That said It needs a wee boost as this very niche and I suggest that on removal of one of the defined conditions gain 1 second resistance. Any more than that it it becomes too much.
In its current state with healing in the build you can keep the 4 defined conditions off you for a good portion of a given battle. One issue I have with HTC is that while it very nice , one has no control over when it triggers. Thus you can end up gaining little but the stunbreak if already full of endurance when stunned.
Assassins reward is fine In Shamans/apothecary mix I get close to 900 heal on a single deathblossom in a current build. Were I to do a CND and mug combo I would get an extra 4+ k heal. I do think maximizing the abilities of certain traits should require a bit of sacrifice. Asassins reward gives some benefit to the heal trait. This of course contradicts the thief being built around burst and going all in on damage but some variety is welcome for those wanting to try some other build.
I am sort of ok with expeditious dodger. 1 more second might be helpful but any more than that is too much. As is if in runes of evasion you can get 7 seconds per dodge. Any sort of boon duration can also impact this skill.
Upper hand with the latest boosts is much more usable. It works very nice in an s/d build I use where coupled with trickery line and QP I am able to keep my INI at max through much of a battle, this in turn boosting lead attacks damage. Regen is up full time and while there little in the weay of healing in said build that inflow of health is very nice.
Don’t stop is in a wierd spot. On its own it can be GM worthy but the DD line exists and since most people take DD line it becomes a reudunant skill in many builds. I think were the Acro line more desirable overall there might be some builds willing to drop DD in favor of it and don’t stop would become more usable. A cooldown at 5 seconds perhaps?
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Been playing an Acro build this week and mostly enjoying it. What I am finding though is that the trait line isn’t very acrobatic or mobile.
Expeditious Dodger swiftness is too short and really needs to be doubled.
Endless Stamina is a very very minor buff basically equating to roughly one extra dodge every 40s assuming a player can keep vigor on for the full 40s. I get they don’t want to give back the 3rd dodge bar but IMO this trait should refill endurance a set amount per evade.
Don’t Stop is mostly a rip off for a GM trait. It should be nearly as good as Unhindered Combatant maybe without the Swiftness, distance or damage reduction. It should also have a much shorter cooldown if it has one at all.
Upper Hand should have its Regen on 2s but the initiative gain per evade.
Assassin’s Reward is still under performing after its buff.
The bright sports are Pain Response, Hard to Catch and Feline Grace. Everything else is very meh or outright crap.
heh… i think expedious dodger is fine as is.
endless stamina is okay, buff to 75% would be fair imo.
Don’t stop is weak, actually downright horrible. It should be reduces effectiveness AND duration. Chill is so strong with necro’s right now…
assassins reward should be heals per initiative spent steals an additional 100% if a strike hits… but have its base healing reduced by 50%. so 51 health per initiative + an additional 51 health stolen if strike hits… or something similar. This will allow the more damage with the acro line, which is the biggest issue with this trait line imo.
Do not underestimate swindlers equilibrium……
I am sort of ok with expeditious dodger. 1 more second might be helpful but any more than that is too much.
heh… i think expedious dodger is fine as is.
This surprises me. Currently a player can only keep swiftness up 30% of the time with this trait and that assumes they burn all their dodges to do so. A thief willing to consume all their base dodges should be able to keep swiftness up most of the time. Lets keep in mind Acrobatics is supposed to be a mobile and dexterous trait line.
Don’t stop is in a wierd spot. On its own it can be GM worthy but the DD line exists and since most people take DD line it becomes a reudunant skill in many builds.
Compared to every other version of this in other classes, this one is by far the worst and it is a GM trait while most are Adept, Minor or Major and come with an additional bonus such as speed, regeneration, etc. Only two other GM versions exist and neither have cooldowns. Both are also vastly superior to this… vastly.
endless stamina is okay, buff to 75% would be fair imo.
Endless Stamina borders on useless right now. That percentage is not additive it is a multiplier so the bonus is only 1.25% per second. Vigor restores 7.5% endurance per second rather than the base 5%. With this trait Vigor restores 8.75%. To get any significant advantage from this a thief basically has to be running Vigor continuously. Even then they will get one extra dodge every 40s…. one.
Compared to any other trait line Acro is by far the weakest in the minor trait department.
You are missing the issue. The traits strenght is debateable, but with the rework the line is a viable pick for spvp builds, you cant argue with that. The problem the title is adressing is: ‘it should feel more acrobatic’ and I agree.
It would be great to have a jump modifier. Im not talking aout jump heigh, im talking about the animation + maybe adding some extra effects, nothing big of course, since there is no cd and no ressource consumption.
It could also base around movement, starting with a damage boost while not standing still, to increase the line’s effectiveness for direct combat.
But yes. Endless stamina is a joke, swiftness should be at least in pair with UC, and actually all DrD grandmaster traits would rightfully belong to acrobatics.
There is another issue I would like to point out: the armor, at least the top-part of the armor used by the character in the acrobatics’ image. Why do we not have it?!
But of course that is not tied to the original issue.
I am sort of ok with expeditious dodger. 1 more second might be helpful but any more than that is too much.
heh… i think expedious dodger is fine as is.
This surprises me. Currently a player can only keep swiftness up 30% of the time with this trait and that assumes they burn all their dodges to do so. A thief willing to consume all their base dodges should be able to keep swiftness up most of the time. Lets keep in mind Acrobatics is supposed to be a mobile and dexterous trait line.
Don’t stop is in a wierd spot. On its own it can be GM worthy but the DD line exists and since most people take DD line it becomes a reudunant skill in many builds.
Compared to every other version of this in other classes, this one is by far the worst and it is a GM trait while most are Adept, Minor or Major and come with an additional bonus such as speed, regeneration, etc. Only two other GM versions exist and neither have cooldowns. Both are also vastly superior to this… vastly.
endless stamina is okay, buff to 75% would be fair imo.
Endless Stamina borders on useless right now. That percentage is not additive it is a multiplier so the bonus is only 1.25% per second. Vigor restores 7.5% endurance per second rather than the base 5%. With this trait Vigor restores 8.75%. To get any significant advantage from this a thief basically has to be running Vigor continuously. Even then they will get one extra dodge every 40s…. one.
Compared to any other trait line Acro is by far the weakest in the minor trait department.
Lucid Singularity is a GM trait that makes one immune to immobilize. It only happens when Overloading an attunement. An elementalist can not overload any time he wishes. There a cost to doing so.
Time marches on is the other GM trait dealing with immobilize. It merely decreases duration of the same. It has a 25 percent post to speed build in but chill is a 66 speed reduction . You still move much slower when chilled.
Dont stop is on a 10 second cooldown but removes an immob completely while decreasing the effectiveness of Chilled and Crippled. With a 50 percent reduction to the impact of chilled swiftness all but cancles the resulting deduction out.
I do not see the Ele or Mesmer versions as being that much better then Don’t stop. UC is much better then don’t stop.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Lucid Singularity is a GM trait that makes one immune to immobilize. It only happens when Overloading an attunement. An elementalist can not overload any time he wishes. There a cost to doing so.
This trait completely removes Chill, Cripple and Immobilize. It also make the tempest immune to those conditions while they are overloading. That is far better than turning Immobilize into Cripple and reducing the effect of Cripple and Chill.
Time marches on is the other GM trait dealing with immobilize. It merely decreases duration of the same. It has a 25 percent post to speed build in but chill is a 66 speed reduction . You still move much slower when chilled.
This is a minor trait which the thief has to basically take a GM trait that is moderately better and soak up a utility slot with a signet to get. I wouldn’t use words like “merely” around this gem.
I do not see the Ele or Mesmer versions as being that much better then Don’t stop. UC is much better then don’t stop.
Lets see… Dogged March: Massively better and it is Adept. Mecha Legs… Awesome and is only Master. Geomancers Training isn’t quite as good but is only Major and reduces the recharge on all earth skills. Similar with Relentless Pursuit which is only Adept. Oh then there is Unhindered Combatant which makes this GM trait look stupid.
This trait is a junk GM trait by almost any measure. I cannot believe you are trying to justify this trait at the GM level given at least three clearly better traits that do far more and several others in the same ballpark that aren’t even GM. I would rather have any of the other traits (adjusted for thief skills) than this trait.
Lucid singularity is a trait that only happens when one uses an Overload. You can not overload an attunement until you remain in that attunemnet for 5 seconds. This overload will than increase that attunements cooldown making it less accessible to an Elementalist . In order to overload you are locked in a long term lasting channel during which you very vulnerable.
Don’t stop just procs every 10 seconds. Nothing has to be done by the thief to proc it and the thief not putting himself at risk or compromising other abilities/skills when it kicks in. He can keep dodging attacking you name it.
You can not just look at what the skill does when making a comparison. You have to compare what it takes to get those effects and how often that can occur. I do not know that many Eles will Overload every 10 seconds.
All of the other ones you mention decrease durations. Don’t stop decreases the effect itself. Again as a thief I have high uptime on swiftness. I would much rather have the effect of chill and crippled lessened on me than just see a lower duration. If I am chilled for 2 seconds and moving at -66 percent speed rather then 4 seconds at -66 percent speed as a thief I am going to get myself in trouble. I need my mobility.
As example you claim “dogged march” massively better. How? it on a 10 second cooldown just as is don’t stop and it reduces a duration by 33 percent. You are still chilled and crippled. You still get Imobbed. As a thief I would rather not be Imobbed and be crippled instead then be imobbed for 1.4 seconds instead of 2. I can be pretty dead in that 1.4 seconds.
If I got swiftness up and the chill is -33 percent speed , it a wash. I can still move around.
As stated I do think they can lower the cooldown to 5 seconds. I had already mentioned UC was much better but we got the issue of the specialization lines being better then core lines across the board on most every profession.
The suggestion of no cooldown at all is just too much. It means a thief could never be Imobbed.
Acro needs a few more tweaks but it gets much closer to what it should be.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
I had already mentioned UC was much better
UC, Physical Supremacy and Endurance Thief paired up are better than the whole acro line all together.
Too bad devs had zero creativity in designing Dare Devil but butchering acro in last juni, then reselling a version of the previous one.
I remember i gave tonns of constrictive feedback on that juni-time turning out completely right later but you know, who the kitten listens to competent ppl these days…
I had already mentioned UC was much better
UC, Physical Supremacy and Endurance Thief paired up are better than the whole acro line all together.
Too bad devs had zero creativity in designing Dare Devil but butchering acro in last juni, then reselling a version of the previous one.
I remember i gave tonns of constrictive feedback on that juni-time turning out completely right later but you know, who the kitten listens to competent ppl these days…
This holds true pretty well right across the board on every profession. On every profession forum there concern that with the spec traits , core traits come out as significantly weaker.
This one reason I do not want to see another profession or another spec line added for the near future. Those core lines need work.
For thief trickery is close. DA is close. DD is fine. The rest need work.
Expeditious Dodger’s short duration makes me angry personally. This isn’t Zelda, I don’t wanna spam rolls nonstop to keep up speed. It causes Condi and Base Thief to have some pretty lame swiftness access. Then on top of it I gotta worry about my caltrops flying everywhere and putting me in combat.
(edited by Doggie.3184)
Lucid singularity is a trait that only happens when one uses an Overload. You can not overload an attunement until you remain in that attunemnet for 5 seconds. This overload will than increase that attunements cooldown making it less accessible to an Elementalist . In order to overload you are locked in a long term lasting channel during which you very vulnerable.
Again this removes all movement impairing conditions and prevents them from being applied on top of the staggering amount of condi removal accessible to a Tempest. The only downside to this GM trait is that it competes with Elemental Bastion.
You can not just look at what the skill does when making a comparison. You have to compare what it takes to get those effects and how often that can occur. I do not know that many Eles will Overload every 10 seconds.
Tempest and Ele condi removal is strong so few take this trait. However if the trait was reworked for a thief it would basically be something like remove all movement impairing conditions on steal and do not allow them to be applied while stealthed.
All of the other ones you mention decrease durations. Don’t stop decreases the effect itself. Again as a thief I have high uptime on swiftness.
How? Either you take UC and make this GM trait completely pointless or go TotC which is inferior to FS in most builds. Expeditious doesn’t have much up time on speed. The other option is some sort of runes that give it but that is a huge sacrifice in DPS/Survival.
As example you claim “dogged march” massively better. How?
Because it is an Adept trait (first tier) and applies Regen.
The suggestion of no cooldown at all is just too much. It means a thief could never be Imobbed.
My suggestion was to make it like UC without the damage reduction bonus, speed and extended movement. I could also see this trait removing/reducing these conditions while Vigor is applied. Those would at least make it somewhat appealing.
Acro needs a few more tweaks but it gets much closer to what it should be.
As I pointed out in my original post Acro needs to be more Acrobatic with more in and out of combat mobility. Acro also lacks a “killer” GM trait and offers no additional DPS. Don’t Stop is certainly not a killer GM trait and at best is a Major trait and more like an Adept one.
Lucid singularity is a trait that only happens when one uses an Overload. You can not overload an attunement until you remain in that attunemnet for 5 seconds. This overload will than increase that attunements cooldown making it less accessible to an Elementalist . In order to overload you are locked in a long term lasting channel during which you very vulnerable.
Again this removes all movement impairing conditions and prevents them from being applied on top of the staggering amount of condi removal accessible to a Tempest. The only downside to this GM trait is that it competes with Elemental Bastion.
You can not just look at what the skill does when making a comparison. You have to compare what it takes to get those effects and how often that can occur. I do not know that many Eles will Overload every 10 seconds.
Tempest and Ele condi removal is strong so few take this trait. However if the trait was reworked for a thief it would basically be something like remove all movement impairing conditions on steal and do not allow them to be applied while stealthed.
All of the other ones you mention decrease durations. Don’t stop decreases the effect itself. Again as a thief I have high uptime on swiftness.
How? Either you take UC and make this GM trait completely pointless or go TotC which is inferior to FS in most builds. Expeditious doesn’t have much up time on speed. The other option is some sort of runes that give it but that is a huge sacrifice in DPS/Survival.
As example you claim “dogged march” massively better. How?
Because it is an Adept trait (first tier) and applies Regen.
The suggestion of no cooldown at all is just too much. It means a thief could never be Imobbed.
My suggestion was to make it like UC without the damage reduction bonus, speed and extended movement. I could also see this trait removing/reducing these conditions while Vigor is applied. Those would at least make it somewhat appealing.
Acro needs a few more tweaks but it gets much closer to what it should be.
As I pointed out in my original post Acro needs to be more Acrobatic with more in and out of combat mobility. Acro also lacks a “killer” GM trait and offers no additional DPS. Don’t Stop is certainly not a killer GM trait and at best is a Major trait and more like an Adept one.
Runes of the pack coupled with TOTC give high swiftness uptime. Runes of Evasion/centaur/speed does this as well. These do not affect DPS. Even with just Expeditious the thief that dodges right after dont stop kicks in gets plenty of swiftness to get him through the cripple or chill that remains.Flanking strikes IMO is too long a cooldown unless trickster traited to take over TOTC.
Thieves were gaining high swiftness uptime before there even WAS a DD line. It did not suddenly become something that could not be done. Pack remains one of the more popular runes even with UC.
Pain response already gives regen along with 4 condition cleanses. Taking this combo is not markedly inferior to a warrior taking cleansing ire and Dogged. On my own thief I would much rather have don’t stop over dogged march. Same cooldown and a better outcome.
One more time when an Ele is channeling overload they are prone to attack as they can do little else in that period. It does not happen at the frequency that the 10 second cooldown happens and you just ignore that. The act of overload itself has a downside . There is COST to an overload to attunements cooldown. Add on top of that it a SPEC traitline much like DD. DD Uc>lucid by a mile.
I already pointed out all the spec lines were relatively more powerful then core.
Expeditious Dodger’s short duration makes me angry personally. This isn’t Zelda, I don’t wanna spam rolls nonstop to keep up speed. It causes Condi and Base Thief to have some pretty lame swiftness access. Then on top of it I gotta worry about my caltrops flying everywhere and putting me in combat.
In that slot there only one class that has a like trait and that the ranger with tail wind. They get 5 seconds swiftness on a weapon swap. Weapon swaps have a cooldown of 10 seconds. The traits are comparable if not favoring the thief.
The only other trait from all classes that adds speed of some sort in minor adept would be Zephyrs speed but this only adds speed when attuned to Lightning. Again the thief version superior.
Expeditious used to have a duration of 2 seconds. It was very weak then.
It is a minor adept trait after all. It hardly the worse of the minor adepts when compared across all classes. As to your issue with uncatchable, well that is a personal choice as to which trait you desided on in that spot and has nothing to do with expeditious. That said this speaks to just how many benefits a thief can gain off a single dodge.
When my own Condition thief is dodging he is not doing it just to gain swiftness. He is gaining swiftness, gaining health, removing conditions, applying torment bleed and cripple, dropping caltrops, gaining 10 percent condi damage and gaining vigor all at once. Some of those require an evade during that dodge but it not all that bad.
No other profession can gain all that on a dodge and the thief has the most dodges.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
I wish Actobatics had the old Feline Grace. If it was restored and the third dodge was removed from Dare Devil, Dare Devil would still be a competitive specialization.
One thing i notice about Acrobatics is it our only traitline without a trait that decreases cooldown of our various utility types. All of the others have one and SA has two.
Now I can not see moving the deception cooldown trait to Acro nor the Venom one but perhaps what could be done instead as a subtle tweak that can nudge the line in the right direction would be making some of the given traits a TYPE.
As example Instant reflex becomes a “deception”. Trait SA with the deception cooldown and it drops to 32 secs.
Hard To Catch becomes a "physical’. Cooldown drops to 24 seconds if you have brawlers and gain another 10 endurance..
Don’t stop becomes a “trick”. trait trickster and the cooldown drops to 8 seconds along with an extra condition removed.
Now these hardly the only tweaks needed but it can be made to better synergize with other traitlines. I do feel the line is close. I do not want to see just more power creep. I want to see legitimate reasons to use the line in a variety of builds that are not about ever more killing power .
(edited by babazhook.6805)
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