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Posted by: Spiders Spiders Spiders.8043

Spiders Spiders Spiders.8043

a) They wanna reduce the thief population and will drive it to the gutter until goal is achieved.
b) They have no clue what effect the changes they do have beyond the directly immediate.
c) They will nerf without any regard to side effects and believe it’s not that big of a big deal and they can always fix what was broken later.
d) We are all wrong and nerfing at least a trait line, 1, 5, the reduction in dps, the reduction in survivability, the possible reduction in initiative (and thus actions), is correct and we fail to understand how little impact it has.

Which one is it?

[CIR] Crimson Imperium Reborn / Blacktide

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

Closest to b. There are no noticeable devs that know a single thing about Thieves other than “they use stealth”. They have no idea what they’re doing.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

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Posted by: Vv W.7821

Vv W.7821

I’m going with
e) They do know what they are doing, they are simply fixing things one at a time, and adding problems that they cause with these fixes onto the list.

Redundant Sasquatch – 80 Warrior – [aYe] – HoD

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Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

I’m going with
e) They do know what they are doing, they are simply fixing things one at a time, and adding problems that they cause with these fixes onto the list.

THIS is how Developers ruining class balance in ALL MMO dowdays

they cant just nerf something and don’t touch anything else especialy if thats the ONLY and best viable spec that they are nerfing that means you wont left anything bicous they arent buffing other thinks so we could choose.
OR nerf Those that countering the stuff that needs buffing.
you gett my point.
reason i left wow
they were doing this ALWAYS

-Stellaris
-Total War: Warhammer
-Guild Wars 2

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Posted by: Rizzy.8293

Rizzy.8293

Closest to b. There are no noticeable devs that know a single thing about Thieves other than “they use stealth”. They have no idea what they’re doing.

QFT.

pretty much this and ranger, they’ve notice bots running rangers hence why those got nerfed too.

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

Or, F, they finally created a balanced class and the bads are simply QQing the loss of their ez-mode.

I’ve played thief as main since release and plan to continue to do so. Right now, I’m in a position where it’s 50/50 when I go into a fight that I’ll be the victor, where previously it was no contest (can I really claim to be so much better than every one else playing any other class at that point in time? no.) Our class was OP, it’s now balanced.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

Or, F, they finally created a balanced class and the bads are simply QQing the loss of their ez-mode.

I’ve played thief as main since release and plan to continue to do so. Right now, I’m in a position where it’s 50/50 when I go into a fight that I’ll be the victor, where previously it was no contest (can I really claim to be so much better than every one else playing any other class at that point in time? no.) Our class was OP, it’s now balanced.

For the umpteenth kitten time, the patch did NOTHING for PvP. Revealed whether you attack or not WOULD have been the correct way to balance stealth properly in PvP or WvW, but that is not what happened. Instead, burst builds were completely unaffected by 1 extra second (hence still hilariously OP), perma-stealth ponies spamming C+D all day don’t even notice a difference and PvE stealth skill rotations got made more awkward and unnatural. That is all the difference it made. No “ez mode” was lost. In fact, all the increase to Revealed did is push more Thieves TOWARDS “ez mode” burst builds that wipe the floor with the enemy before the fight gets out of hand. The patch hit every aspect of the Thief EXCEPT the part it was meant to balance. Thief is still stupidly OP in PvP, and was just made ever-so-slightly worse in PvE for no reason whatsoever. If your victories have been literally halved by this patch, I question the integrity/consistency of your playstyle.

Don’t even try and defend this pathetic excuse of a patch. Arenanet had the perfect solution, to stop perma-stealth and C+D abuse for good, to transform stealth in to mechanic influenced by decision instead of abundance, and at the same time keeping the mechanic in line within all environments with very little repercussion. Instead, we got a last-minute switcheroo that fails in every single way to solve the original problems, and instead causes additional problems in completely unrelated areas of the game. They have failed in every regard on this issue, and there is absolutely no excuse for the sheer stupidity that has been demonstrated here.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

(edited by Auesis.7301)

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

Or, F, they finally created a balanced class and the bads are simply QQing the loss of their ez-mode.

I’ve played thief as main since release and plan to continue to do so. Right now, I’m in a position where it’s 50/50 when I go into a fight that I’ll be the victor, where previously it was no contest (can I really claim to be so much better than every one else playing any other class at that point in time? no.) Our class was OP, it’s now balanced.

For the umpteenth kitten time, the patch did NOTHING for PvP. Revealed whether you attack or not WOULD have been the correct way to balance stealth properly in PvP or WvW, but that is not what happened. Instead, burst builds were completely unaffected by 1 extra second (hence still hilariously OP), perma-stealth ponies spamming C+D all day don’t even notice a difference and PvE stealth skill rotations got made more awkward and unnatural. That is all the difference it made. No “ez mode” was lost. In fact, all the increase to Revealed did is push more Thieves TOWARDS “ez mode” burst builds that wipe the floor with the enemy before the fight gets out of hand. The patch hit every aspect of the Thief EXCEPT the part it was meant to balance. Thief is still stupidly OP in PvP, and was just made ever-so-slightly worse in PvE for no reason whatsoever. If your victories have been literally halved by this patch, I question the integrity/consistency of your playstyle.

Don’t even try and defend this pathetic excuse of a patch. Arenanet had the perfect solution, to stop perma-stealth and C+D abuse for good, to transform stealth in to mechanic influenced by decision instead of abundance, and at the same time keeping the mechanic in line within all environments with very little repercussion. Instead, we got a last-minute switcheroo that fails in every single way to solve the original problems, and instead causes additional problems in completely unrelated areas of the game. They have failed in every regard on this issue, and there is absolutely no excuse for the sheer stupidity that has been demonstrated here.

I agree that the application of revealed should apply on breaking stealth in addition to the increased duration on revealed. Burst may still need to be nerfed, but I doubt it, never ran those cheese builds and never will. However, I’ve never encountered a burst build on any class that I considered to be a threat to me, so I fail to see how they are OP.

GCs kill other GC, but fail to kill properly built/played builds. Bunkers are the real issue atm for balance.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Jack of Tears.9458

Jack of Tears.9458

Closest to b. There are no noticeable devs that know a single thing about Thieves other than “they use stealth”. They have no idea what they’re doing.

They really do need to have a dev dedicated to each class, so we have someone at bat for all of us instead of just their favorites. This is just getting silly.


I’m sorry I stepped outta yer box, don’ worry, if
ya whine enough they’ll put me right back.

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Posted by: Jack of Tears.9458

Jack of Tears.9458

Or, F, they finally created a balanced class and the bads are simply QQing the loss of their ez-mode.

I’ve played thief as main since release and plan to continue to do so. Right now, I’m in a position where it’s 50/50 when I go into a fight that I’ll be the victor, where previously it was no contest (can I really claim to be so much better than every one else playing any other class at that point in time? no.) Our class was OP, it’s now balanced.

Ya know, if you’re problem with the class is ya feel it was too easy, you could have always chosen to play with a different build. I don’t play PvP and I take chances, so I don’t play the game in easy mode – anything is easy mode if you play like my grandpa drives. But see, they didn’t just leave the choice of switching to a harder build for people like you, instead they forced everyone to change builds while only hurting the people who needed that change the least. Our class was not overpowered in PvE, never has been, and now it’s just worse.


I’m sorry I stepped outta yer box, don’ worry, if
ya whine enough they’ll put me right back.

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

Or, F, they finally created a balanced class and the bads are simply QQing the loss of their ez-mode.

I’ve played thief as main since release and plan to continue to do so. Right now, I’m in a position where it’s 50/50 when I go into a fight that I’ll be the victor, where previously it was no contest (can I really claim to be so much better than every one else playing any other class at that point in time? no.) Our class was OP, it’s now balanced.

Ya know, if you’re problem with the class is ya feel it was too easy, you could have always chosen to play with a different build. I don’t play PvP and I take chances, so I don’t play the game in easy mode – anything is easy mode if you play like my grandpa drives. But see, they didn’t just leave the choice of switching to a harder build for people like you, instead they forced everyone to change builds while only hurting the people who needed that change the least. Our class was not overpowered in PvE, never has been, and now it’s just worse.

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

The issue was the builds that abused stealth to crazy extents were “ez-mode”. They got nerfed, now people QQ rather than getting good at playing with slightly less access to their crutch.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: TakaEagle.9486

TakaEagle.9486

Or, F, they finally created a balanced class and the bads are simply QQing the loss of their ez-mode.

I’ve played thief as main since release and plan to continue to do so. Right now, I’m in a position where it’s 50/50 when I go into a fight that I’ll be the victor, where previously it was no contest (can I really claim to be so much better than every one else playing any other class at that point in time? no.) Our class was OP, it’s now balanced.

If Thieve’s are so “OP”, perhaps you can explain why they are the lowest tier class along with warrior post-patch in tPVP? They don’t carry their weight anymore and are simply not worthy of holding one of the 5 slots. Let’s be honest. If $10,000 was on the line, NO ONE would pick thieves, their only viable build at the moment is the overrated backstab gc build which was only encouraged by Anet’s blinded decision to nerf stealth and deter users astray from builds that everyone does not complain about. Class balancing should intrinsically be based around their status in tPVP, this is the most fundamental part of the game because it is the most competitive. Evident by the amount of players still complaining about thieve’s ability in PvE, it would be logical to believe that tPVP would be Anet’s primary goal; but they have failed in that aspect as well.

This patch was completely uncalled for, the stealth nerf is detrimental to builds like p/d and quickness should not have been nerfed as significantly as it is now.

S H U N P O [TS]
Sea Of Sorrows Commander

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Posted by: Mandra Madador.1709

Mandra Madador.1709

How do you people expect for them to listen to you when all you do is complain.

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Posted by: Invizible.2960

Invizible.2960

How do you people expect for them to listen to you when all you do is complain.

What is it we should do?

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

How do you people expect for them to listen to you when all you do is complain.

What is it we should do?

Adapt, pick the weakest build you can think of and get so good at it that you kill the cheesy flavor of the month builds. I rolled out venom sharing, which btw is VERY effective if you have a team with half a brain between them. (So no, GC isnt’ the only viable build we have).

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Invizible.2960

Invizible.2960

How do you people expect for them to listen to you when all you do is complain.

What is it we should do?

Adapt, pick the weakest build you can think of and get so good at it that you kill the cheesy flavor of the month builds. I rolled out venom sharing, which btw is VERY effective if you have a team with half a brain between them. (So no, GC isnt’ the only viable build we have).

Sounds good, now that I look back maybe I did rely on stealth a little too much for everything as a tanky S/d, guess I wasn’t as skilled as I thought . Played Engineer today and it was tough at first but then I got better at it. Now you’re making me log back in instead of sleep..

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Posted by: Jinks.2057

Jinks.2057

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

S/D is the absolute EASIEST weapon set we have.

I enjoy reading your posts telling everyone how the “skillful” way to play a thief is, and I hope we can continue our discussion.

Truth be told though every time we have this discussion you end up disappearing….

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Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

The issue was the builds that abused stealth to crazy extents were “ez-mode”. They got nerfed, now people QQ rather than getting good at playing with slightly less access to their crutch.

I’m not sure I would say it has the highest skill cap. Looking at it, it has a built-in shadowstep + snare + stunbreak+condition remove+escape, a decent evade with decent damage (assuming it hits), a cripple, and a stealth. The auto attack is powerful and it’s unified around direct damage. Try sustained (non-condition, non-burst) D/D for a challenge. D/P can also be quite a challenge since it only has a shadowstep into combat and it costs 9 initiative to use stealth, meaning that you have to really manage your initiative to use it (reward being that you can use it to perma-stealth). This is not to knock S/D as it is powerful and takes longer to learn than burst D/D, I’m just not sure that it has the highest skill cap, but it’s all subjective anyway. My current build is 0/15/30/25/0 S/D + D/P making it non-bursty relying on both stealth and dodging for survivability.

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

Or, F, they finally created a balanced class and the bads are simply QQing the loss of their ez-mode.

I’ve played thief as main since release and plan to continue to do so. Right now, I’m in a position where it’s 50/50 when I go into a fight that I’ll be the victor, where previously it was no contest (can I really claim to be so much better than every one else playing any other class at that point in time? no.) Our class was OP, it’s now balanced.

For the umpteenth kitten time, the patch did NOTHING for PvP. Revealed whether you attack or not WOULD have been the correct way to balance stealth properly in PvP or WvW, but that is not what happened. Instead, burst builds were completely unaffected by 1 extra second (hence still hilariously OP), perma-stealth ponies spamming C+D all day don’t even notice a difference and PvE stealth skill rotations got made more awkward and unnatural. That is all the difference it made. No “ez mode” was lost. In fact, all the increase to Revealed did is push more Thieves TOWARDS “ez mode” burst builds that wipe the floor with the enemy before the fight gets out of hand. The patch hit every aspect of the Thief EXCEPT the part it was meant to balance. Thief is still stupidly OP in PvP, and was just made ever-so-slightly worse in PvE for no reason whatsoever. If your victories have been literally halved by this patch, I question the integrity/consistency of your playstyle.

Don’t even try and defend this pathetic excuse of a patch. Arenanet had the perfect solution, to stop perma-stealth and C+D abuse for good, to transform stealth in to mechanic influenced by decision instead of abundance, and at the same time keeping the mechanic in line within all environments with very little repercussion. Instead, we got a last-minute switcheroo that fails in every single way to solve the original problems, and instead causes additional problems in completely unrelated areas of the game. They have failed in every regard on this issue, and there is absolutely no excuse for the sheer stupidity that has been demonstrated here.

I agree that the application of revealed should apply on breaking stealth in addition to the increased duration on revealed. Burst may still need to be nerfed, but I doubt it, never ran those cheese builds and never will. However, I’ve never encountered a burst build on any class that I considered to be a threat to me, so I fail to see how they are OP.

GCs kill other GC, but fail to kill properly built/played builds. Bunkers are the real issue atm for balance.

No. Not in addition – INSTEAD of. It’s clear that you don’t PvE much, because 4 seconds of Revealed botches up comfortable PvE stealth skill rotations for absolutely no good reason other than a pathetic attempt to balance PvP, which is completely unrelated, when Thieves are already sub-par in late-game PvE as it is. Mandatory 3 seconds of Revealed is more than enough to balance the playing field in PvP without messing up PvE players who didn’t deserve to be kicked in to the dirt.

I wish I could speak of PvE and PvP as separate entities, but I can’t, because Arenanet insist on streamlining balance changes between the two and thus breaking one or the other with every change.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

(edited by Auesis.7301)

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

S/D is the absolute EASIEST weapon set we have.

I enjoy reading your posts telling everyone how the “skillful” way to play a thief is, and I hope we can continue our discussion.

Truth be told though every time we have this discussion you end up disappearing….

Why would I allow myself to be sucked repeatedly into an argument with someone who has blinders on? What do you play that’s so kitten difficult?

~Shadowkat

(edited by Adaneshade.2409)

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Posted by: WereDragon.6083

WereDragon.6083

Or, F, they finally created a balanced class and the bads are simply QQing the loss of their ez-mode.

I’ve played thief as main since release and plan to continue to do so. Right now, I’m in a position where it’s 50/50 when I go into a fight that I’ll be the victor, where previously it was no contest (can I really claim to be so much better than every one else playing any other class at that point in time? no.) Our class was OP, it’s now balanced.

Explain how the recent changes affected glass backstabs? The reason the Thief was considered OP…

Cause I remember reading loads of topics saying Caltrops where cutting down entire teams of enemies.

/sarcasm
=P

What do we say to the god of death? Not Today….
Eleshod|80 Thief|Tarnished Coast
Malsavias|80 Necromancer| Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

Or, F, they finally created a balanced class and the bads are simply QQing the loss of their ez-mode.

I’ve played thief as main since release and plan to continue to do so. Right now, I’m in a position where it’s 50/50 when I go into a fight that I’ll be the victor, where previously it was no contest (can I really claim to be so much better than every one else playing any other class at that point in time? no.) Our class was OP, it’s now balanced.

Explain how the recent changes affected glass backstabs? The reason the Thief was considered OP…

Cause I remember reading loads of topics saying Caltrops where cutting down entire teams of enemies.

/sarcasm
=P

We are discussing the stealth nerfs in particular, caltops is an entirely different issue. Only inconsequential noobs actually die to GC backstab builds, they’re not really a threat to the meta at any level that actually matters.

Stealth was too easy a tool to use, causing too many people to ignore our other defensive options entirely. This forces players to utilize other tools now. Once again, those “forced” into GC builds are only playing hotjoins, not high level tPvP.

As for PvE, backstab was never the best DPS option, so I fail to see what the drama is there.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

As for PvE, backstab was never the best DPS option, so I fail to see what the drama is there.

Yet again, you’re not getting it. We’re not talking about backstab – we’re talking about EVERY SINGLE STEALTH ROTATION. Tactical Strike (the bread and butter of all PvE S/D builds that aren’t venomshare (an already pathetic PvE build)), Backstab, Sneak Attack (P/D builds are now even more pathetic than before from this), ALL OF THEM have been reduced in effectiveness by varying amounts unnecessarily.

When Thieves need serious work to make them more relevant in group instances and not nerfs, there is absolutely NO justification for any of those to be affected in PvE. None whatsoever. Being reduced in effectiveness in PvE AT ALL is evidence of complete ignorance on Arenanet’s part, ESPECIALLY when said changes have NOTHING to do with what they’re trying to fix.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

(edited by Auesis.7301)

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

The issue was the builds that abused stealth to crazy extents were “ez-mode”. They got nerfed, now people QQ rather than getting good at playing with slightly less access to their crutch.

I’m not sure I would say it has the highest skill cap. Looking at it, it has a built-in shadowstep + snare + stunbreak+condition remove+escape, a decent evade with decent damage (assuming it hits), a cripple, and a stealth. The auto attack is powerful and it’s unified around direct damage. Try sustained (non-condition, non-burst) D/D for a challenge. D/P can also be quite a challenge since it only has a shadowstep into combat and it costs 9 initiative to use stealth, meaning that you have to really manage your initiative to use it (reward being that you can use it to perma-stealth). This is not to knock S/D as it is powerful and takes longer to learn than burst D/D, I’m just not sure that it has the highest skill cap, but it’s all subjective anyway. My current build is 0/15/30/25/0 S/D + D/P making it non-bursty relying on both stealth and dodging for survivability.

What makes it take so much to play is the fact that it has all that. Most builds are pretty much 2 or 3 button combos, all with one goal in mind…damage. There is no decision making involved. Above 50% HP, I do X, once they are below, I do Y…that’s about as complicated as it gets.

With S/D, a player has to make on the fly decisions about which skill to use and weigh the initiative cost of each or they get into trouble fast. Should I strip that guys’s boon? Or refresh the timer on my shadow return? What about CnD and dazing to stop that revive/stomp…… At any given moment you’re faced with several decisions to make about which is the best usage of init for the current situation.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

The issue was the builds that abused stealth to crazy extents were “ez-mode”. They got nerfed, now people QQ rather than getting good at playing with slightly less access to their crutch.

I’m not sure I would say it has the highest skill cap. Looking at it, it has a built-in shadowstep + snare + stunbreak+condition remove+escape, a decent evade with decent damage (assuming it hits), a cripple, and a stealth. The auto attack is powerful and it’s unified around direct damage. Try sustained (non-condition, non-burst) D/D for a challenge. D/P can also be quite a challenge since it only has a shadowstep into combat and it costs 9 initiative to use stealth, meaning that you have to really manage your initiative to use it (reward being that you can use it to perma-stealth). This is not to knock S/D as it is powerful and takes longer to learn than burst D/D, I’m just not sure that it has the highest skill cap, but it’s all subjective anyway. My current build is 0/15/30/25/0 S/D + D/P making it non-bursty relying on both stealth and dodging for survivability.

What makes it take so much to play is the fact that it has all that. Most builds are pretty much 2 or 3 button combos, all with one goal in mind…damage. There is no decision making involved. Above 50% HP, I do X, once they are below, I do Y…that’s about as complicated as it gets.

With S/D, a player has to make on the fly decisions about which skill to use and weigh the initiative cost of each or they get into trouble fast. Should I strip that guys’s boon? Or refresh the timer on my shadow return? What about CnD and dazing to stop that revive/stomp…… At any given moment you’re faced with several decisions to make about which is the best usage of init for the current situation.

I think you’re over complicating things a bit. Open with IS. Autoattack. Enemy has protection or retaliation:strip it. Stealth. Dazelock. Get knocked down: shadow return. I would argue that D/P has as many viable choices per second due to its good unification around direct damage without the capability of dazelocking the opponent or a stunbreak, evade, or escape on the weapon. D/P doesn’t allow for boon strip either meaning if they get protection up your burst doesn’t mean much and if they get retaliation you need to back off. As I said, I am not knocking S/D as I use it and D/P, but the statement that S/D is our highest skill ca kitten ubjective.

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

Wow, and I thought the ranger forums were filled with paranoid people that made no sense…

I agree with Vv W on it, it’s E. Several members of the dev team DO play Thief, so I think they’d know what they’re doing…though the fixing things one at a time isn’t really a smart move, considering you do have to adjust other things to compensate for what is changed the first time.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

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Posted by: Devon.9061

Devon.9061

A-Net has a GW spvp team… Why don’t think just get advise from them about changes? I personally just killed an A-net Mesmer in WvW today that was with NSP. And I will have to say he must have been the worst Mesmer I have seen in my time of playing. You could use the excuse oh he was just watching. If you are watching then please don’t stand on the front line with a big A-Net symbol next to you. It just screamed to me “ATTACK ME.”

P.S. Be prepared for another nerf soon. I got bored of running my normal build so I went GC on him and 3 hit him once….

Last Forum Account Left.
Yo mama jokes to stronk.
Forum Mods to weak.

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Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

A-Net has a GW spvp team… Why don’t think just get advise from them about changes? I personally just killed an A-net Mesmer in WvW today that was with NSP. And I will have to say he must have been the worst Mesmer I have seen in my time of playing. You could use the excuse oh he was just watching. If you are watching then please don’t stand on the front line with a big A-Net symbol next to you. It just screamed to me “ATTACK ME.”

P.S. Be prepared for another nerf soon. I got bored of running my normal build so I went GC on him and 3 hit him once….

About the P.S…. Already preparing for this as its what I’ve been seeing lately. Sustain was affected, not burst.

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief

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Posted by: Jinks.2057

Jinks.2057

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

S/D is the absolute EASIEST weapon set we have.

I enjoy reading your posts telling everyone how the “skillful” way to play a thief is, and I hope we can continue our discussion.

Truth be told though every time we have this discussion you end up disappearing….

Why would I allow myself to be sucked repeatedly into an argument with someone who has blinders on? What do you play that’s so kitten difficult?

Why so mad?

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

S/D is the absolute EASIEST weapon set we have.

I enjoy reading your posts telling everyone how the “skillful” way to play a thief is, and I hope we can continue our discussion.

Truth be told though every time we have this discussion you end up disappearing….

Why would I allow myself to be sucked repeatedly into an argument with someone who has blinders on? What do you play that’s so kitten difficult?

Why so mad?

Who’s mad? No reason to waste emotion on trolls. Nice deflection though, makes it obvious you don’t want to admit to whatever no-brainer setup you run.

This is why I don’t engage in conversation with you.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: avilo.1942

avilo.1942

I already started a d/d elementalist in preparation for more thief nerfs. Pretty clear what’s going on, i expect some more QQing from the ignorant noobs will push anet further down the path of removing the thief from the game.

Don’t take this as “oh lamer just switching profession!” I still like thief the best, S/D has the best mobility in the game, etc. and thief is definitely fun, but no thanks to blind nerfs that are not thought through, and just cater to bad players that didn’t know how to deal with stealth.

The people that are leaving the thief class aren’t leaving because we think it’s underpowered now or bad. It’s because we know anet will continue to butcher the profession slowly into unplayability.

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

That’s ironic avilo, we have rangers doing the same thing, and I’ve seen warriors in the warrior forums doing the same thing. In other words, everybody thinks the devs are out to get them, when they’re not. Just work with what you have until the next patch comes.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

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Posted by: Joric.5376

Joric.5376

There is no agenda.

The Thief profession was designed to be different. The use of initiative instead of cooldowns shows that. Still most people look at the Thief from the point of view of THEIR characters/professions and simply argue in a way, that’s not valid for the Thief.

Instead of starting to think about class mechanics and doing the so-called “adjustments” in a way, that works in line with the Thief profession, A-net seems to be out of ideas and just nerfs abilities while hoping this will solve problems. It won’t.

I don’t mind having lower stealth as a Thief – but please do a partially re-work for the Thief abilities and skills instead of just nerf them. The original idea behind the Thief relies on certain parameters to work – and these parameters are in a bad shape at the moment. At first I was going to vote for a mixture of b) and e), but

I think it’s g) A-Net puts the Thief profession in second (wait… it’s more third actually… grrr) place and has no interest/plans to respond to reported “imbalances” in a creative/constructive way.

Possible solution:
- remove initiative and make the Thief class work like any other profession
- Example: CnD can be adjusted by fine-tuning the cooldown that way, making “perma-stealth” not possible
- also Heartseeker can’t be chained (yay – no more “endless easy-mode HS spam!” /rolleyes) etc.
- the standard A-Net profession team can think in “common” pattern and all players can argue about the Thief profession based on the same understanding of class mechanics

Of course this would remove the Thief profession completely as it was advertised and exists at the moment – which would be quite sad.

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Posted by: Jinks.2057

Jinks.2057

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

S/D is the absolute EASIEST weapon set we have.

I enjoy reading your posts telling everyone how the “skillful” way to play a thief is, and I hope we can continue our discussion.

Truth be told though every time we have this discussion you end up disappearing….

Why would I allow myself to be sucked repeatedly into an argument with someone who has blinders on? What do you play that’s so kitten difficult?

Why so mad?

Who’s mad? No reason to waste emotion on trolls. Nice deflection though, makes it obvious you don’t want to admit to whatever no-brainer setup you run.

This is why I don’t engage in conversation with you.

You’re mad unfortunately. You evade any and all discussion where I pick apart your ideas.

1. You don’t post builds that you feel are “pr0”
2. You claim D/D and GC are noob builds
3. You claim you have to utilize all aspects of a thief (movement/stealth/durability)

Basically you’ve come to the conclusion that S/D+Tanky build = pr0

What you fail to realize is its not. That is easy mode.

You want pr0? Go throw on full zerk gear and take on 5 people at once….That’s what I consider “pr0”

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Posted by: Spiders Spiders Spiders.8043

Spiders Spiders Spiders.8043

> 2. You claim D/D and GC are noob builds

They are cheesy, gimmicky builds.

> What you fail to realize is its not. That is easy mode.

Done both. Three shotting someone with no skill required is easymode. The recent change to stealth, among other things, has mathematically made stealthy non burst builds even worse over time in comparison with gc ones, trait wise and in effective actions per minute.

Saying D/D GC is “pr0” doesn’t make you a good player. It IS easymode.

[CIR] Crimson Imperium Reborn / Blacktide

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

S/D is the absolute EASIEST weapon set we have.

I enjoy reading your posts telling everyone how the “skillful” way to play a thief is, and I hope we can continue our discussion.

Truth be told though every time we have this discussion you end up disappearing….

Why would I allow myself to be sucked repeatedly into an argument with someone who has blinders on? What do you play that’s so kitten difficult?

Why so mad?

Who’s mad? No reason to waste emotion on trolls. Nice deflection though, makes it obvious you don’t want to admit to whatever no-brainer setup you run.

This is why I don’t engage in conversation with you.

You’re mad unfortunately. You evade any and all discussion where I pick apart your ideas.

1. You don’t post builds that you feel are “pr0”
2. You claim D/D and GC are noob builds
3. You claim you have to utilize all aspects of a thief (movement/stealth/durability)

Basically you’ve come to the conclusion that S/D+Tanky build = pr0

What you fail to realize is its not. That is easy mode.

You want pr0? Go throw on full zerk gear and take on 5 people at once….That’s what I consider “pr0”

I have posted multiple builds, in fact, complete guides to gameplay.

What contributions have you made to the community? (Wait let me answer that for you. NONE!)

Here are just a few of the numerous constructive posts of mine:
5 months ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Condition-Damage-is-bad/first#post459745

2 months ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Looking-for-a-survivable-tanky-WvW-build/first#post1177020

1 week ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guide-to-Thief-Guides/first#post1713713

Your entire post history consists of trolling players who offer alternatives to your narrow-minded views on the thief class. While mine have for the most part been directed at promoting innovation in builds and gameplay.

Anyone can troll, it takes professionalism (pr0) to present new ideas to the community.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Jinks.2057

Jinks.2057

S/D is easy? Compared to what? It has the highest skill cap of any kit we can wield.

S/D is the absolute EASIEST weapon set we have.

I enjoy reading your posts telling everyone how the “skillful” way to play a thief is, and I hope we can continue our discussion.

Truth be told though every time we have this discussion you end up disappearing….

Why would I allow myself to be sucked repeatedly into an argument with someone who has blinders on? What do you play that’s so kitten difficult?

Why so mad?

Who’s mad? No reason to waste emotion on trolls. Nice deflection though, makes it obvious you don’t want to admit to whatever no-brainer setup you run.

This is why I don’t engage in conversation with you.

You’re mad unfortunately. You evade any and all discussion where I pick apart your ideas.

1. You don’t post builds that you feel are “pr0”
2. You claim D/D and GC are noob builds
3. You claim you have to utilize all aspects of a thief (movement/stealth/durability)

Basically you’ve come to the conclusion that S/D+Tanky build = pr0

What you fail to realize is its not. That is easy mode.

You want pr0? Go throw on full zerk gear and take on 5 people at once….That’s what I consider “pr0”

I have posted multiple builds, in fact, complete guides to gameplay.

What contributions have you made to the community? (Wait let me answer that for you. NONE!)

Here are just a few of the numerous constructive posts of mine:
5 months ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Condition-Damage-is-bad/first#post459745

2 months ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Looking-for-a-survivable-tanky-WvW-build/first#post1177020

1 week ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guide-to-Thief-Guides/first#post1713713

Your entire post history consists of trolling players who offer alternatives to your narrow-minded views on the thief class. While mine have for the most part been directed at promoting innovation in builds and gameplay.

Anyone can troll, it takes professionalism (pr0) to present new ideas to the community.

None of those builds are unique.

They are just as I said….builds for people with less skill. Equip zerk armor on that 10/30/30 build and perform to the same level as you did w/ full p/v/t gear.

The venom share build is a rehash of other people’s builds. Infact I ran a superior build for sPvP duels and was undefeated by every class I went up against. Venom share isn’t something new mate.

Unfortunately you believe builds that are designed for slower reflexes and group play equates to more skill….that is not the case.

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Posted by: Jinks.2057

Jinks.2057

> 2. You claim D/D and GC are noob builds

They are cheesy, gimmicky builds.

> What you fail to realize is its not. That is easy mode.

Done both. Three shotting someone with no skill required is easymode. The recent change to stealth, among other things, has mathematically made stealthy non burst builds even worse over time in comparison with gc ones, trait wise and in effective actions per minute.

Saying D/D GC is “pr0” doesn’t make you a good player. It IS easymode.

No what is pr0 is a player who can play a GC build and still perform to the same level that the “pr0” P/V/T players use.

I’ve fought countless Ele’s that use D/D. Only a few did i count to have any skill b/c they literally ran pure zerk gear. They performed just the same as the bunker/cheese builds….if those few players actually ran bunker…..omg is all i’ma say.

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

So what are you attacking then, Jinks, the build or the weaponset?

If build…….
You yourself admit that PVT builds are superior to Berserker by your previous post, particularly the “If those few players actually ran bunker…..omg is all i’ma say.” statement. What kind of braindead person would purposely kitten themselves by running berserker over PVT.

If weaponsets…..
I still maintain that S/D is harder to learn than D/D. There is a reason that the vast majority of the thieves you see in hotjoins are D/D, (hint It isn’t because it’s difficult to use).

At the same time, a much larger % of high level tournament players run some variant of S/D builds.

This is because S/D is harder to learn, but has a higher performance, once mastered, than D/D does.

PS – I’m still waiting on you to provide any link to you contributing any builds or guides of your own development to the thief community. It seems as though you are simply content to belittle the attempts of veteran thieves to provide education to the newer ones on options other than “moar pew pew”.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Jinks.2057

Jinks.2057

So what are you attacking then, Jinks, the build or the weaponset?

If build…….
You yourself admit that PVT builds are superior to Berserker by your previous post, particularly the “If those few players actually ran bunker…..omg is all i’ma say.” statement. What kind of braindead person would purposely kitten themselves by running berserker over PVT.

If weaponsets…..
I still maintain that S/D is harder to learn than D/D. There is a reason that the vast majority of the thieves you see in hotjoins are D/D, (hint It isn’t because it’s difficult to use).

At the same time, a much larger % of high level tournament players run some variant of S/D builds.

This is because S/D is harder to learn, but has a higher performance, once mastered, than D/D does.

PS – I’m still waiting on you to provide any link to you contributing any builds or guides of your own development to the thief community. It seems as though you are simply content to belittle the attempts of veteran thieves to provide education to the newer ones on options other than “moar pew pew”.

How do thieves kill bunkers?

Burst.

How does stacking P/V/T on a thief beat bunkers?

They don’t.

I still laugh at how S/D is “pr0”

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

“How do thieves kill bunkers?

Burst.

How does stacking P/V/T on a thief beat bunkers?

They don’t."

Bunkers rely on being able to block, stack boons, and/or heal to stay alive. S/D’s weaponset is capable of defeating any of those defenses and when combined with the proper utilities, shuts down the bunker’s ability to defend themselves entirely. I have no issue whatsoever killing bunkers. Burst isn’t the only way.

Conversely, full burst thieves are unable to burst hard enough to take me down before I am able to pin them down and kill them.

I still laugh at how S/D is “pr0”

Can you name any other weaponset where the use of all 5 skills is a requirement to compete at a high level? D/P comes close, maybe even matches it for complexity since you rely on 2 abilities to combo field your stealth (in the end it’s still just a stealth spam build though).

The other are simply spam CnD / opener, or (in the case of D/D condi) spam the 3 key. (We’ll not even get into how lawltastic HS spam thieves are, as I’m sure even you can agree there)

I’d consider managing the use of 5 abilities contingent on your target’s current action/boons more difficult than the use of 2 or 3 contingent solely on your target’s current HP.

~Shadowkat

(edited by Adaneshade.2409)

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Posted by: ensoriki.5789

ensoriki.5789

S/D vs D/D difficulty does not matter.

The great forum duppy.

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

S/D vs D/D difficulty does not matter.

I stated that the only builds affected were the ones that abuse stealth burst for easy kills.

He retorted with his opinion that S/D builds are easy and burst builds are hard.

Now, here we are……still on topic….sorta…I think?

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

S/D is also stealth spam, but its stealth>wait to interrupt + daze instead of dumping stealth into backstab quickly. I’d say almost all of our builds revolve around some measure of stealth spam (except maybe P/P and S/P) since we lack the defensive boons that others have to make up for being visible 100% of the time. We have dodging as a lot of people point out, but there are several classes with vigor on crit traits which lead to perma vigor, which is better in a drawn out fight. Feline grace is nice, but since its only a 15% return, overall it provides 1 more upfront dodge but is slower in the long run than perma vigor.

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief

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Posted by: Jinks.2057

Jinks.2057

“How do thieves kill bunkers?

Burst.

How does stacking P/V/T on a thief beat bunkers?

They don’t."

Bunkers rely on being able to block, stack boons, and/or heal to stay alive. S/D’s weaponset is capable of defeating any of those defenses and when combined with the proper utilities, shuts down the bunker’s ability to defend themselves entirely. I have no issue whatsoever killing bunkers. Burst isn’t the only way.

Conversely, full burst thieves are unable to burst hard enough to take me down before I am able to pin them down and kill them.

I still laugh at how S/D is “pr0”

Can you name any other weaponset where the use of all 5 skills is a requirement to compete at a high level? D/P comes close, maybe even matches it for complexity since you rely on 2 abilities to combo field your stealth (in the end it’s still just a stealth spam build though).

The other are simply spam CnD / opener, or (in the case of D/D condi) spam the 3 key. (We’ll not even get into how lawltastic HS spam thieves are, as I’m sure even you can agree there)

I’d consider managing the use of 5 abilities contingent on your target’s current action/boons more difficult than the use of 2 or 3 contingent solely on your target’s current HP.

So what happens when thst glass thief picks S/D up as his 2nd weapon set?

Whats that?

Cause I can tell you S/D is infinitely easier to play. You then pair D/P up with your S/D…

Either way a good bunker isn’t going to let you daze lock them. They’re also able to reapply boons faster than you can clear em.

Then you got the awesome WvW builds that other classes get. Max defense and superb attacking power/burst.

I generally laugh at P/V/T thieves because they die faster than a 1/2 decent GC thief.

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

S/D is also stealth spam, but its stealth>wait to interrupt + daze instead of dumping stealth into backstab quickly. I’d say almost all of our builds revolve around some measure of stealth spam (except maybe P/P and S/P) since we lack the defensive boons that others have to make up for being visible 100% of the time. We have dodging as a lot of people point out, but there are several classes with vigor on crit traits which lead to perma vigor, which is better in a drawn out fight. Feline grace is nice, but since its only a 15% return, overall it provides 1 more upfront dodge but is slower in the long run than perma vigor.

That style of play ceased to really work though when the duration on daze was nerfed. It is now way more effective to play the S/D set with a more holistic approach, using daze simply as an interrupt, since it can no longer function as a “stunlock”. Use of boon shears, immobilize, and unblockable attacks are now required.
S/D was easymode when you could perma-daze, but not so much now.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Jinks.2057

Jinks.2057

S/D is also stealth spam, but its stealth>wait to interrupt + daze instead of dumping stealth into backstab quickly. I’d say almost all of our builds revolve around some measure of stealth spam (except maybe P/P and S/P) since we lack the defensive boons that others have to make up for being visible 100% of the time. We have dodging as a lot of people point out, but there are several classes with vigor on crit traits which lead to perma vigor, which is better in a drawn out fight. Feline grace is nice, but since its only a 15% return, overall it provides 1 more upfront dodge but is slower in the long run than perma vigor.

That style of play ceased to really work though when the duration on daze was nerfed. It is now way more effective to play the S/D set with a more holistic approach, using daze simply as an interrupt, since it can no longer function as a “stunlock”. Use of boon shears, immobilize, and unblockable attacks are now required.
S/D was easymode when you could perma-daze, but not so much now.

S/D daze wasn’t touched in PvE……aka WvW

Are we just talking sPvP here????

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

“How do thieves kill bunkers?

Burst.

How does stacking P/V/T on a thief beat bunkers?

They don’t."

Bunkers rely on being able to block, stack boons, and/or heal to stay alive. S/D’s weaponset is capable of defeating any of those defenses and when combined with the proper utilities, shuts down the bunker’s ability to defend themselves entirely. I have no issue whatsoever killing bunkers. Burst isn’t the only way.

Conversely, full burst thieves are unable to burst hard enough to take me down before I am able to pin them down and kill them.

I still laugh at how S/D is “pr0”

Can you name any other weaponset where the use of all 5 skills is a requirement to compete at a high level? D/P comes close, maybe even matches it for complexity since you rely on 2 abilities to combo field your stealth (in the end it’s still just a stealth spam build though).

The other are simply spam CnD / opener, or (in the case of D/D condi) spam the 3 key. (We’ll not even get into how lawltastic HS spam thieves are, as I’m sure even you can agree there)

I’d consider managing the use of 5 abilities contingent on your target’s current action/boons more difficult than the use of 2 or 3 contingent solely on your target’s current HP.

So what happens when thst glass thief picks S/D up as his 2nd weapon set?

Whats that?

Cause I can tell you S/D is infinitely easier to play. You then pair D/P up with your S/D…

Either way a good bunker isn’t going to let you daze lock them. They’re also able to reapply boons faster than you can clear em.

Then you got the awesome WvW builds that other classes get. Max defense and superb attacking power/burst.

I generally laugh at P/V/T thieves because they die faster than a 1/2 decent GC thief.

Replied just a tad too early lol. But as I said in the post previous to this one, daze spam is ineffective. Boon shearing is not though, combining venoms with the shears slows down their ability to restack.

As for the death comment, I realize that your sample isn’t the best as there are maybe only 10% of the thieves that can considere themselves good; so I wan[t fault you for saying it. I assure you, though, that I’ve never had any issue from berserker thieves.

I’m more than willing to head to a vacant PvP room if you want to hash out some tactics.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Adaneshade.2409

Adaneshade.2409

S/D is also stealth spam, but its stealth>wait to interrupt + daze instead of dumping stealth into backstab quickly. I’d say almost all of our builds revolve around some measure of stealth spam (except maybe P/P and S/P) since we lack the defensive boons that others have to make up for being visible 100% of the time. We have dodging as a lot of people point out, but there are several classes with vigor on crit traits which lead to perma vigor, which is better in a drawn out fight. Feline grace is nice, but since its only a 15% return, overall it provides 1 more upfront dodge but is slower in the long run than perma vigor.

That style of play ceased to really work though when the duration on daze was nerfed. It is now way more effective to play the S/D set with a more holistic approach, using daze simply as an interrupt, since it can no longer function as a “stunlock”. Use of boon shears, immobilize, and unblockable attacks are now required.
S/D was easymode when you could perma-daze, but not so much now.

S/D daze wasn’t touched in PvE……aka WvW

Are we just talking sPvP here????

Yes. Well tPvP anyway, not really even considering hotjoins as the opponent sample is on average, weak to mediocre.

~Shadowkat

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Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

Fair enough. If they would unify D/D now, it might be considered more of a skilled setup. A longer evade maybe (since it has a relatively long windup unless you’re mashing it). I think the problem with the set is that you only use 1,2 and 5 in a direct damage setup and only 1 and 3 for condition damage. If it were unified in either direction, I think the stigma about it being a less skilled setup would go away as neither would spam anymore and have more abilities to choose from while adapting to the battle conditions.

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief