Guild Wars 2

Thief
The thief has had numerous changes in the vein of quality-of-life upgrades. We’ve made improvements to help pistols play nicer with their hybrid nature while also improving the dagger and sword weapons. Survivability has been boosted a bit, with healing skills and traits working to provide more condition removal, vigor, and healing. Larcenous Strike and Bountiful Theft now remove additional boons, with Lead Attacks receiving a large rework that promotes spending initiative rather than holding it. We’ll continue to monitor the effectiveness of Lead Attacks and adjust it accordingly as needed.

Vital Shot: Reduced the aftercast delay of this skill by 0.6 seconds.
Body Shot: Reduced the aftercast delay of this skill by 0.16 seconds.
Unload: This skill now grants 1 stack of might for 8 seconds when striking an enemy.
Heartseeker: This skill is now able to be affected by quickness and slow.
Weakening Charge: This skill is now able to be affected by quickness and slow.
Dust Strike: This skill now applies 5 stacks of vulnerability per hit. Fixed a bug that caused this skill to strike more than once. Fixed a bug that caused this skill to blind for only 3 seconds instead of the full 5 seconds.
Larcenous Strike: The number of boons stolen by this skill has been increased from 1 to 2. The initiative cost has been increased from 1 to 2.
Withdraw: This skill now removes torment in addition to its other removals.
Hide in Shadows: This skill now removes confusion in addition to its other removals. Increased the duration of regeneration from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.
Skelk Venom: The base healing modifier for venom strikes has been increased by 40%. The healing contribution for both the initial heal and venom strikes has been increased by 50%.
Expeditious Dodger: Increased the swiftness duration from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.
Pain Response: The internal cooldown of this ability has been reduced from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
Vigorous Recovery: Increased the vigor duration of this trait from 7 seconds to 10 seconds.
Swindler’s Equilibrium: Damage while wielding a sword has been increased from 5% to 7%.
Lead Attacks: This trait has been reworked and now grants 1% damage and condition damage per initiative spent for 15 seconds. This effect has a maximum of 15%.
Bountiful Theft: The number of boons stolen has been increased from 2 to 3 in addition to applying vigor.
Consume Plasma: This stolen ability now grants resistance for 2.5 seconds, but it will not apply quickness. Updated the skill facts.
Throw Gunk: This skill is now ground targeted. Added the radius to this skill’s description. Added an allied combo-field effect and enemy ring effect to this skill.

I am extremely satisfied. I suppose I will come back from retirement, and play seriously again. Well done Anet. I am satisfied. S/D Lives on.

no buff or love for the D/D users…

I see Anet is pushing for the old Thief>Mesmer counter of the past with those heal buffs and the added Resistance to Consume Plasma. Intriguing…

Maybe with the new trait “Lead Attacks” + buff to Larcenous Strike.. S/D Comeback? :O

Yes, S/D is back but all other classes have received no nerfs again, it is mostly buffs, so the powercreep is still very much there.
As much as I appreceiate the wvw updates – I’d rather have a class balance update.

edit: we did get nerfed. Reaper chill now procs stacks of bleed now instead of dealing dmg. We could use dash to cleanse chill and so avoid dmg, now we gotta eat it. GG

Revs got barely nerfed. As long as revs stay in their current state we have no chance regardless the buffs.

Still glad we didn’t get another nerf bomb. The small QoL like steal, withdraw, plasma are nice but won’t be game changer imo.

Acro is still garbage of course standing on it’s own at least, even with Pain Response on 16s, with Don’t Stop on it’s own with 10s as GM? More boon stealing/ripping aswell, still Larcenous Strike only procs on hit and Plasma is even more OP.

Lead attacks opens up for more DPS, but means Trickery will be still mandatory, Init management isn’t much of a problem, since it stacks based on Init used now, means you’ll still have to manage Init, but not at a cost of that multiplier.

Jana.6831:

Yes, S/D is back but all other classes have received no nerfs again, it is mostly buffs, so the powercreep is still very much there.
As much as I appreceiate the wvw updates – I’d rather have a class balance update.

Scrapper had its survavibility nerfed. Necro should create less problems with chill (not that the thief has ever had problems vs Necros).

With the buffs to S/D maybe we can do something vs Shiro/Glint Revs and we can become again Mesmers harcounter.

More boon stealing/ripping is a big plus, not nearly enough boon counters in the game. Vital Shot change is interesting, but Body Shot is still garbage though, just look at the pointless duration of the vuln it applies.

i was hoping to see a change to offhand dagger and the shadow arts trait line
D/P will stay meta and the strongest set for thieves i guess

A highly telegraphed 6 ini boonsteal is not a counter to Mesmers or Revs. That’s just begging for staff 5 in your face.

Korochun.5862:

A highly telegraphed 6 ini boonsteal is not a counter to Mesmers or Revs. That’s just begging for staff 5 in your face.

flanking stirke is only easy to dodge if you use it randomly, most of the time people use it wjile the enemy is also using a skill

as someone who was already playing p/p glass cannon i’m laughing my butt off now hurling out 15k Unloads in Spvp XD
thanks Anet for adding might to my spam skill!

Vital Shot: Reduced the aftercast delay of this skill by 0.6 seconds.
Body Shot: Reduced the aftercast delay of this skill by 0.16 seconds.

The problem with these skills is the pre-cast delay, where the Thief aims before firing.

The aftercast delay of Unload plus the pre-cast delay of Vital shot makes the whole P/P set really awkward to use. There should be on extended delays between these two skills.

The effectiveness of Body Shot is not based on the second shot but the first shot, thus reducing the after cast really means nothing. To immobilize someone with Body Shot, the pre-cast delay plus the projectile’s slow travel time makes the skill a waste of initiative.

Unload: This skill now grants 1 stack of might for 8 seconds when striking an enemy.

This to show that the balance teams really knows nothing about the Thief profession. The P/P weapon set needs more defensive options, not more DPS. The nerf to Black Powder really crippled this set and it is yet to recover. Increasing damage output of pistol doesn’t change the fact that the Thief has very few defensive options specially when this weapon set has no access to stealth nor shadowstep.

Heartseeker: This skill is now able to be affected by quickness and slow.
Weakening Charge: This skill is now able to be affected by quickness and slow.

Woop-di-doo. We can HS farther again because that’s the only way to be really speedy in capping nodes. Rather than giving us more defensive options, they simply continue to encourage a boring gameplay for Thief.

Dust Strike: This skill now applies 5 stacks of vulnerability per hit. Fixed a bug that caused this skill to strike more than once. Fixed a bug that caused this skill to blind for only 3 seconds instead of the full 5 seconds.

Tsk. This kind of bugs is what makes me question the competence of the quality assurance. They make a brand new skill that doesn’t function as the design intended. It begs the question on how did this get pass the QA? But then again, we’re talking about the Thief here, which really at the bottom of the list in terms of quality. But hey, it now applies vulnerability which will increase the frequency of QQs because Vault now deals an even more insane amount of damage. gj balance team — you really know your stuff.

Larcenous Strike: The number of boons stolen by this skill has been increased from 1 to 2. The initiative cost has been increased from 1 to 2.

Ok, sure it steals 1 more boon but that doesn’t warrant an increase in cost. The total cost effectiveness of FS/LS is nerfed in this case because it is now one of the most expensive Dual-Wield skill with Pistol Whip.

Withdraw: This skill now removes torment in addition to its other removals.
Hide in Shadows: This skill now removes confusion in addition to its other removals. Increased the duration of regeneration from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.

These are not buffs. These should have been part of the skills in the first place or when torment was introduced. To intentionally leave them out further reinforce the notion that Thief is really at the bottom of the list in terms of quality.

Skelk Venom: The base healing modifier for venom strikes has been increased by 40%. The healing contribution for both the initial heal and venom strikes has been increased by 50%.

I don’t use this skill nor I’m even intrigued of using it now. The problem with this skill is not the amount of healing, rather it’s the 40s CD. Seriously though, if you’re going to buff this, the CD should be the first to get the improvement. I understand the fact that they want to normalize the CD of all venoms, but we’re talking about a healing skill here not a damaging skill.

Expeditious Dodger: Increased the swiftness duration from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.

Utterly unnecessary. What needs fixing is Feline Grace.

Pain Response: The internal cooldown of this ability has been reduced from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.

Now this is an improvement, but how come this still doesn’t remove Confusion?

Vigorous Recovery: Increased the vigor duration of this trait from 7 seconds to 10 seconds.

Sure why not. I mean the whole trait line used to increase buff duration, so even though this is the only one that received the duration extension, it’s fine.

Upper Hand and Pain Response regen buff should have also received a duration boost.

Swindler’s Equilibrium: Damage while wielding a sword has been increased from 5% to 7%.

Not worth it! As long as the total initiative cost of both Sword weapon sets are so kitten high, no amount of buffs to the Sword will make it more effective.

Just a simple comparison;
D/P = 17 init total cost
S/D = 20 init total cost (used to be 19, thanks LS “buff”)
S/P = 21 init total cost

With 12 initiative pool (15 max), both Sword weapon sets are not worth it. Stop the damage buffs and reduce the initiative costs.

Lead Attacks: This trait has been reworked and now grants 1% damage and condition damage per initiative spent for 15 seconds. This effect has a maximum of 15%.

I can already see that this is going to be problematic with the DD trait stacking damage boost using Lotus Training or Bound.

lol at 25% damage boost — time to buy some buckets for QQ tears.

Did they even test this one out?

Bountiful Theft: The number of boons stolen has been increased from 2 to 3 in addition to applying vigor.
Consume Plasma: This stolen ability now grants resistance for 2.5 seconds, but it will not apply quickness. Updated the skill facts.
Throw Gunk: This skill is now ground targeted. Added the radius to this skill’s description. Added an allied combo-field effect and enemy ring effect to this skill.

No comments here. Not really that impactful and they are very situational.

“Deathly Chill: This trait no longer causes chill to inflict damage but instead applies 8 seconds of bleeding each time you apply chill to an enemy.” let it sink in……

For PvE, some of these changes are significant.

Unload now builds 8 might stacks if all 8 shots land on a single usage, which is insane. I was already using P/P as my alternative to my Staff in PvE; I will probably never equip shortbow again. This is huge, because we don’t really have any solid might generating abilites available to us. You can build 24 might stacks solo and then immediately switch to staff to ride out the duration with staff auto attacks.

The duration increase in expeditious dodger from 4 to 6 seconds means it just slightly below a daredevil’s unbuffed energy regeneration. This means that when each stack of swiftness expires, you will have regenerated 45 energy, 5 short of what is needed to perform another dodge. The energy regen food pushes this over the top, allowing you to use Lotus or Bound and maintain 100% swiftness uptime when traveling. Since Acro is used in PvE solo builds, its a really nice improvement. I am probably going to stock running Dash for Bound now in my solo build with this change.

Weakening Charge now being affected by quickness is big, because it was superior DPS to autoattacks before if you didn’t have quickness. (Edited to Add: Now with the new damage golems, I was able to confirm it was never superior DPS to begin with)

5 seconds of Vulnerability on Dust Strike is great, because if you are using this defensively with autoattacks, it now adds an additional 5% damage multiplier to your auto attacks in addition to all your existing stacked multipliers. The duration on the stacks exceeds the time it takes to regen the initative for a single dust strike, so you can keep it up 100%.

The buffs to Pain Response and Vigorous Recovery don’t mean much. You can already maintain 100% vigor uptime as a daredevil if you are good at your evades, so more vigor in acro isn’t needed. The issue with Pain Response is the trigger is disjointed from the actual condi removal, so in practice, it just ends up being a proc of regen while maybe clearing some conditions if you are lucky. Decreasing the ICD doesn’t fix the reason I don’t take it.

No other thoughts really; I have an irrational hatred of sword so screw that garbage.

Lead Attacks change was unwarranted and encourages spammy play followed by 11111111111111 (AKA D/P 3spam builds), and nothing was done for CS builds. Of course, OH dagger continuously ignored.

Unload getting might is completely stupid and I honestly have no idea who thought this would be a good idea. Again, this is just more 3spam with Lead Attacks synergy. Who’s working on these damage increase changes? They make no sense at all.

Recognition of core thief condition weakness is a big step in the right direction, but ultimately implementation kind of shoddy as Mad mentions above; PR and passive procs in general simply don’t work on this class. Acro is still a bad version of Daredevil. Daredevil needs the treatment DH just got; slight shaves at what’s making it over the top compared to core.

Boon strip on LS going back to 2 is huge for those who still hang on to S/D and try to counter the boonspam meta.

I’m very mixed on these changes. ANet is skirting around the real problems of power creep in elite specs by just powercreeping the core professions and will ultimately create more imbalances and unnecessary power. This is especially upheld with the thief because DD and Acro are conceptually the same.

I wonder what the damage change is for the Lead Attacks change – I feel the ramp up time and the fact it might not be possible to have fulluptime on it means a significant dps loss, whcih especially for core builds sucks a bit. Daredevil looks to be a lot stronger still which is a shame given how un-thief like it is as a weapon – not many people rolled thief to use a staff. Hopefully it ends up being the same damage overall for D/D rather than a nerf, as otherwise I see core builds falling even further behind.

On the other hand p/p looks nice and I might definitely give that a go, especially for solo play. I like the sword damage buff too, but feel it needs to be up at 10% to compete with other builds for pve.

Thoughts from anyone who raids?

Sane.1356:

I wonder what the damage change is for the Lead Attacks change – I feel the ramp up time and the fact it might not be possible to have fulluptime on it means a significant dps loss, whcih especially for core builds sucks a bit.

The Lead Attack buff lasts for 15 seconds with 15% max. This buff doesn’t deplete when your initiative regens. That means, after spending 12-15 initiatives, you have a 12%-15% damage buff for 15s. Add the other buffs from other sources like from Bound (10% damage) and Lotus Training (10% condi damage), you get a very nice 22%-25% damage buff just by these alone.

This buff is really easy to max with D/P, for instance — BP + HS + HS = 12 init meaning 12% damage boost to your next Backstab. With 15 init, just HS one more time for 15% boost.

Now picture Unload with the stacks of might…let the QQs begin.

It’s a very bad idea.

I don’t get the responses to Lead Attacks. It caps at 15%, which makes Trickery competitive now with Critical Strikes; the damage multipliers in DA are better.

I’m not dropping Critical Strikes for Trickery for a power build.

The only significance it has is the fact that it now boosts condi damage, which gives a second multiplier for condi damage besides Lotus. I think it was needed for condi builds in PvE; I can understand the QQ if you dont like the playstyle in PvP.

DeceiverX.8361:

Unload getting might is completely stupid and I honestly have no idea who thought this would be a good idea. Again, this is just more 3spam with Lead Attacks synergy. Who’s working on these damage increase changes? They make no sense at all

I disagree. I posted some of the numbers in a seperate thread on my staff DPS testing. Highest rotation I got with staff is 30k. I got 17k under the same conditions using just pistol and unload.; I can probably boost it to 18k if I work in a bound rotation.

Even when I did the tests using solo conditions, pistol and unload with the new might stacks could only get to about half of what staff could.

P/P is still really bad and the might buffs don’t mean anything in a meta group comp. The might stacks just make it less bad than before if we get forced into using ranged combat.

It’s still insane though, because that single change is a big jump in damage for this weapon; doesn’t put it on par though with other weapon sets.

MadRabbit.3179:

I don’t get the responses to Lead Attacks. It caps at 15%, which makes Trickery competitive now with Critical Strikes; the damage multipliers in DA are better.

I’m not dropping Critical Strikes for Trickery for a power build.

The only significance it has is the fact that it now boosts condi damage, which gives a second multiplier for condi damage besides Lotus. I think it was needed for condi builds in PvE; I can understand the QQ if you dont like the playstyle in PvP.

Wouldn’t Trickery provide more sustained Damage over DA due to Executioner on activating at 50% health? Looking at this from more of a pvp/WvW standpoint.

Cynz.9437:

“Deathly Chill: This trait no longer causes chill to inflict damage but instead applies 8 seconds of bleeding each time you apply chill to an enemy.” let it sink in……

The thing you don’t take into account : nobody is going to run this trait anymore.
it doesn’t matter that the trait buffs necros agaisnt thieves when the trait isn’t good enough to be used anyway.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

MadRabbit.3179:

I don’t get the responses to Lead Attacks. It caps at 15%, which makes Trickery competitive now with Critical Strikes; the damage multipliers in DA are better.

I’m not dropping Critical Strikes for Trickery for a power build.

The only significance it has is the fact that it now boosts condi damage, which gives a second multiplier for condi damage besides Lotus. I think it was needed for condi builds in PvE; I can understand the QQ if you dont like the playstyle in PvP.

Wouldn’t Trickery provide more sustained Damage over DA due to Executioner on activating at 50% health? Looking at this from more of a pvp/WvW standpoint.

DA + Trick = Execution + Lead Attack = buckets of QQ

BlaqueFyre.5678:

MadRabbit.3179:

I don’t get the responses to Lead Attacks. It caps at 15%, which makes Trickery competitive now with Critical Strikes; the damage multipliers in DA are better.

I’m not dropping Critical Strikes for Trickery for a power build.

The only significance it has is the fact that it now boosts condi damage, which gives a second multiplier for condi damage besides Lotus. I think it was needed for condi builds in PvE; I can understand the QQ if you dont like the playstyle in PvP.

Wouldn’t Trickery provide more sustained Damage over DA due to Executioner on activating at 50% health? Looking at this from more of a pvp/WvW standpoint.

Probably not. If you maintain the 15% max buff from Trickery, then it’s a 5% additive increase over the 10% multiplier already available 100% in DA. For realism, I would say it averages out to be 13%, which is only a 3% increase over the DA multiplier. But then, DA adds an additional 20% multiplier that stacks multiplcatively with all other multipliers. Even though that 20% additional multiplier only has 50% uptime, it will still come out to be bigger numbers.

I can do all the math to prove that, but I am pretty confident I am right.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

MadRabbit.3179:

I don’t get the responses to Lead Attacks. It caps at 15%, which makes Trickery competitive now with Critical Strikes; the damage multipliers in DA are better.

I’m not dropping Critical Strikes for Trickery for a power build.

The only significance it has is the fact that it now boosts condi damage, which gives a second multiplier for condi damage besides Lotus. I think it was needed for condi builds in PvE; I can understand the QQ if you dont like the playstyle in PvP.

Wouldn’t Trickery provide more sustained Damage over DA due to Executioner on activating at 50% health? Looking at this from more of a pvp/WvW standpoint.

DA + Trick = Execution + Lead Attack = buckets of QQ

Only thing Trick has going for it now is potentially a 15% damage multiplier with 100% uptime over the 10% multiplier in CS with 50% uptime. Still won’t take it over CS, because CS has a whole lot of other talents that contribute to big damage numbers.

If I was running a condi build, than yeah, I would run Trick and DA, but not for Executioner, because that multiplier doesn’t work with conditions.

(Keep in mind, I don’t PvP anymore; only PvE, so its a limited perspective here)

Working on a new thief build now that is a hybrid build, I really don’t think enough thieves appreciate the power of the dodges. (dd) I’ve been running power weapons, with condi roll, traps, and overall it feels very good. I think, with more changes like this thieves may end up with more than one viable playstyle. (although, I doubt decaps will ever be ignored, as thieves just have such an easy time moving around a map) I just never thought I’d play a condi p/p build and wreck other players in pvp. I can solo the new lord pretty fast too.

Super happy with the slight tweaks.

MadRabbit.3179:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

MadRabbit.3179:

I don’t get the responses to Lead Attacks. It caps at 15%, which makes Trickery competitive now with Critical Strikes; the damage multipliers in DA are better.

I’m not dropping Critical Strikes for Trickery for a power build.

The only significance it has is the fact that it now boosts condi damage, which gives a second multiplier for condi damage besides Lotus. I think it was needed for condi builds in PvE; I can understand the QQ if you dont like the playstyle in PvP.

Wouldn’t Trickery provide more sustained Damage over DA due to Executioner on activating at 50% health? Looking at this from more of a pvp/WvW standpoint.

DA + Trick = Execution + Lead Attack = buckets of QQ

Only thing Trick has going for it now is potentially a 15% damage multiplier with 100% uptime over the 10% multiplier in CS with 50% uptime. Still won’t take it over CS, because CS has a whole lot of other talents that contribute to big damage numbers.

If I was running a condi build, than yeah, I would run Trick and DA, but not for Executioner, because that multiplier doesn’t work with conditions.

(Keep in mind, I don’t PvP anymore; only PvE, so its a limited perspective here)

Yes, I was implying PvP, thus the buckets of QQs.

In PvE, I agree on picking CS. I personally run CS/Acro/DD in PvE because in my personal experience, it deals more damage than DA/Trick/DD.

Hendrix.9763:

Lead Attacks: This trait has been reworked and now grants 1% damage and condition damage per initiative spent for 15 seconds. This effect has a maximum of 15%.

So exactly how does this work now? Every time you spend 1 initiative, it adds 1% damage for the next 15 seconds? No cooldown or anything? It also works outside of combat?

Interesting change. Great for D/P Backstabbers and bursters, but not so much for sustained combat, it looks like. Well, back to the old days of not keeping a full initiative pool.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

MadRabbit.3179:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

MadRabbit.3179:

I don’t get the responses to Lead Attacks. It caps at 15%, which makes Trickery competitive now with Critical Strikes; the damage multipliers in DA are better.

I’m not dropping Critical Strikes for Trickery for a power build.

The only significance it has is the fact that it now boosts condi damage, which gives a second multiplier for condi damage besides Lotus. I think it was needed for condi builds in PvE; I can understand the QQ if you dont like the playstyle in PvP.

Wouldn’t Trickery provide more sustained Damage over DA due to Executioner on activating at 50% health? Looking at this from more of a pvp/WvW standpoint.

DA + Trick = Execution + Lead Attack = buckets of QQ

Only thing Trick has going for it now is potentially a 15% damage multiplier with 100% uptime over the 10% multiplier in CS with 50% uptime. Still won’t take it over CS, because CS has a whole lot of other talents that contribute to big damage numbers.

If I was running a condi build, than yeah, I would run Trick and DA, but not for Executioner, because that multiplier doesn’t work with conditions.

(Keep in mind, I don’t PvP anymore; only PvE, so its a limited perspective here)

Yes, I was implying PvP, thus the buckets of QQs.

In PvE, I agree on picking CS. I personally run CS/Acro/DD in PvE because in my personal experience, it deals more damage than DA/Trick/DD.

Try to put myself in the PvP perspective, since everyone is running Trick to begin with, than yeah, it is straight up power creep to begin with, but more so for condi builds than power.

And yeah, we don’t need power creep.

Biggest buff to thief was the nerf to DH LB 5.

Random thoughts:

-If we could take a 4th trait line in addition to DA/TR/DD in sPvP, acro might be better than CS for S/D and maybe staff now. Horay for acro!

-ANet doesn’t seem to understand that Thief sPvP meta is to take all the % damage modifiers possible. Acro and SA will always be lacking as long as they lack a means of directly increasing damage.

-The changes to lead attacks and bountiful theft are awesome for D/P. Against the tourney competing players and tourney hopefuls, it’s been more necessary for me to stack stealth when +1ing to ensure they don’t retreat to ground where ports have no path. Before this sacrificed damage for a chance at a non-telegraphed burst. Now it’s going to increase damage to burn all that initiative on stealth.

-The change to lead attacks means more evade spamming d/d condi thieves…

-P/P changes have no bearing on sPvP Thief meta but I think these changes are for the PvE guys and gals who enjoy the unload animation.

-Not bad overall!

Pistol has been due for a major overhaul for over a year since they removed ricochet. Twice now they’ve increased damage done, which isn’t a bad thing, but low damage is only a small portion of the issue with the weapon.

Pistol is still probably the only exclusively single target weapon in the game, body shot is still a worthless waste of initiative, the weapon trait is bad, and pistol/pistol is still a one skill weapon set. Yeah it’s cool my unloads do more damage than ever before but I can’t live on unload alone.

lead attacks changes are significant for a Condition build and in particular the d/d build.

You will pretty well always get that 15 percent bonus to condition damage. Add potent poison and the Impaling lotus and poison ticks 58 percent higher.

S/D has some lovely boosts. That added time to expeditious dodger for the swiftness coupled with a lower cooldown on the PR allows one to trait bounders instead of UC. Couple this with don’t stop Acro line and swindlers.

Stealing three boons in every ~16 seconds or so (lower time from swindlers) is signicant when added on top of the new larcenous. In WvW I already was using the sigil of absorption. You can rip boons away in a hurry with this build. Steal from a booned up mesmer and throw the plasma on top of what you steal.

James Quall.6029:

Pistol has been due for a major overhaul for over a year since they removed ricochet. Twice now they’ve increased damage done, which isn’t a bad thing, but low damage is only a small portion of the issue with the weapon.

Pistol is still probably the only exclusively single target weapon in the game, body shot is still a worthless waste of initiative, the weapon trait is bad, and pistol/pistol is still a one skill weapon set. Yeah it’s cool my unloads do more damage than ever before but I can’t live on unload alone.

Yeah, until there’s a good defensive skill on the set by changing either P/P 2 or 3, I can’t see it getting used in PvP. Nice to have an alright ranged weapon for boss fights at least.

For S/D the only real buff I see is the reduced cool down on Pain Response.

Increased swiftness on Expeditious Dodger is nice for utility but hardly a game changer.

I don’t know why anyone would take Vigorous Recovery to begin with, so the extra vigor seems irrelevant. I get all the vigor I need from other sources, mainly Feline Grace.

Ground targeting on Throw Gunk just adds precious fractions of a second to the cast time, which is the opposite of what I need.

Extra boon stolen on LS is not worth the extra initiative cost. Especially given that Bountiful Theft now gets the same extra boon stolen.

+2% damage on Swindler’s Equilibrium is not enough. Full glass (Zerk or Assassin) S/D still does not compare to dagger or staff running Marauder.

I guess it all depends on how much the other classes got nerfed (or not nerfed) with this update.

From a PvE perspective, the biggest buff was the nerf to Slick Shoes on engis. This will probably mean that raids will find break bar utility on other players a lot more useful and this is an area that thieves can perform well on.

As a 3rd party I have to say the meta wasn’t nerfed enough for if at all for thieves.

My sneaking suspicion is that they are REALLY pushing DD condi down your throats……that’s bad..

Either way patch was a disappointment for the entire community.

Azukas.1426:

Either way patch was a disappointment for the entire community.

Please refrain from making blatantly ridiculous blanket statements. Many of us are really happy with this patch. Thief got a lot of improvements, as did other classes in areas where it was needed. The things that got nerfed or just altered to work differently were also needed. Everyone I’ve seen who has complained about the patch has either been a) looking at it from the perspective of ONE gametype instead of overall, or b) been looking at it from the perspective of one profession and not all of them. Both viewpoints are invalid when designing a game, and are selfish and laughable.

bearshaman.3421:

Azukas.1426:

Either way patch was a disappointment for the entire community.

Please refrain from making blatantly ridiculous blanket statements. Many of us are really happy with this patch. Thief got a lot of improvements, as did other classes in areas where it was needed. The things that got nerfed or just altered to work differently were also needed. Everyone I’ve seen who has complained about the patch has either been a) looking at it from the perspective of ONE gametype instead of overall, or b) been looking at it from the perspective of one profession and not all of them. Both viewpoints are invalid when designing a game, and are selfish and laughable.

The balance portion of the patch is an embarrassment for the whole community.

MadRabbit.3179:

DeceiverX.8361:

Unload getting might is completely stupid and I honestly have no idea who thought this would be a good idea. Again, this is just more 3spam with Lead Attacks synergy. Who’s working on these damage increase changes? They make no sense at all

I disagree. I posted some of the numbers in a seperate thread on my staff DPS testing. Highest rotation I got with staff is 30k. I got 17k under the same conditions using just pistol and unload.; I can probably boost it to 18k if I work in a bound rotation.

Even when I did the tests using solo conditions, pistol and unload with the new might stacks could only get to about half of what staff could.

P/P is still really bad and the might buffs don’t mean anything in a meta group comp. The might stacks just make it less bad than before if we get forced into using ranged combat.

It’s still insane though, because that single change is a big jump in damage for this weapon; doesn’t put it on par though with other weapon sets.

I speak from a sPvP/WvW perspective where two unloads kill most people to begin with.

It was needless. Like I said, it just promotes dumping initiative on the same skill and not using the breadth of skills available to the thief. This itself is bad design in a competitive environment imho.

I’m not saying everything should play like ele or engi – I dislike those ideologies of rotation-based play even more – just that single-button-mashing isn’t a healthy way to play the game.

This balance pass was really inadequate for the most part. Even pro players are cringing at the lack of nerfs to overpowered abilities and just simply stupid changes.

Azukas.1426:

bearshaman.3421:

Azukas.1426:

Either way patch was a disappointment for the entire community.

Please refrain from making blatantly ridiculous blanket statements. Many of us are really happy with this patch. Thief got a lot of improvements, as did other classes in areas where it was needed. The things that got nerfed or just altered to work differently were also needed. Everyone I’ve seen who has complained about the patch has either been a) looking at it from the perspective of ONE gametype instead of overall, or b) been looking at it from the perspective of one profession and not all of them. Both viewpoints are invalid when designing a game, and are selfish and laughable.

The balance portion of the patch is an embarrassment for the whole community.

See previous statement.

Edit: I will say that a split between pve and pvp/wvw for skills needs to happen. That is the biggest and most important change that needs to happen in this game imho.

bearshaman.3421:

Azukas.1426:

Either way patch was a disappointment for the entire community.

Please refrain from making blatantly ridiculous blanket statements. Many of us are really happy with this patch. Thief got a lot of improvements, as did other classes in areas where it was needed. The things that got nerfed or just altered to work differently were also needed. Everyone I’ve seen who has complained about the patch has either been a) looking at it from the perspective of ONE gametype instead of overall, or b) been looking at it from the perspective of one profession and not all of them. Both viewpoints are invalid when designing a game, and are selfish and laughable.

So getting imbalance/not fixing balance issues in one game type is an overall good balance practice?

NuhDah.9812:

bearshaman.3421:

Azukas.1426:

Either way patch was a disappointment for the entire community.

Please refrain from making blatantly ridiculous blanket statements. Many of us are really happy with this patch. Thief got a lot of improvements, as did other classes in areas where it was needed. The things that got nerfed or just altered to work differently were also needed. Everyone I’ve seen who has complained about the patch has either been a) looking at it from the perspective of ONE gametype instead of overall, or b) been looking at it from the perspective of one profession and not all of them. Both viewpoints are invalid when designing a game, and are selfish and laughable.

So getting imbalance/not fixing balance issues in one game type is an overall good balance practice?

They need to split the skills for pve and pvp. If there is a flaw in their practice, it’s this. Because the balance you seek is unachievable (sp?) across both types. I never said it was perfect, but to ignore that things improved just because they’re not perfect is ridiculous.

You say they improved things, I can’t deny it, but taking a closer look to the previous needs of the the profession and the changes they made to all professions… There was this problem with the power creep in the game, they mostly added to that. In the state of the game right now buffing Acro doesn’t mean much, I could say it’s an improvement only for the casual player. Taking acro as a spec won’t benefit anyone in the difficult pve content since it reduces dmg enough to make the thief even more unwanted in that kind of content. In serious pvp taking acro might increase your survivability, but again if you wanted that SA would be also something you can take at the expense of dmg. But do you want that? I actually tried SA with DD and Tr and the dmg I was dealing was lots of lower then before. So will acro make the theaf at least a potential bunker or support if in the dmg regards is not doing too well? I guess we’ll have to see, but I doubt this.

I can’t say Lead Attacks isn’t a convenient add to thief, but it doesn’t make much difference and continues to add to the power creep that was already a bit out of control.

They did some nerfs to engi, but have no idea why mesmers need only buffs. They also nerfed necros and dh, or at least they said so. Anyways DH dmg in pvp still seems as out of control as always. I guess warriors needed a buff or so they say. They seems to be strong bunkers right now, but with their dmg left unchecked… I’m not sure how to feel about it… they might get to be the new fotm… heh… not sure right now, just saying. They probably have enough competition from the other overtunned professions.

So I guess the balance in this patch only addressed some problems, created potential others and attempted to resolve problems that don’t exist or are still out of the viability area, in my opinion. Well I guess I’ll have to see if the unclear things I anticipate will take place.

And for you split pve and pvp skill split well, not sure how to feel about it, it’s like saying remove all pvp from the game and create another game with other mechanics and the same graphics and the same loading interface in a form of a moba? Well I guess that would be a bit tough to do and not sure it’s something desirable and the point of a game that has this kind of diversity.

NuhDah.9812:

There was this problem with the power creep in the game, they mostly added to that. In the state of the game right now buffing Acro doesn’t mean much, I could say it’s an improvement only for the casual player. Taking acro as a spec won’t benefit anyone in the difficult pve content since it reduces dmg enough to make the thief even more unwanted in that kind of content.

0.o

Yeah, you don’t take Acro in groups, because you don’t need to. You can stack for damage, because you can exploit agro mechanics.

If you want to solo champions or solo group content, then how much damage you do is secondary to having a defensive rotation that can out sustain your target’s offensive rotation.

It’s far from being for only the dreaded “casual” players.

MadRabbit.3179:

NuhDah.9812:

There was this problem with the power creep in the game, they mostly added to that. In the state of the game right now buffing Acro doesn’t mean much, I could say it’s an improvement only for the casual player. Taking acro as a spec won’t benefit anyone in the difficult pve content since it reduces dmg enough to make the thief even more unwanted in that kind of content.

0.o

Yeah, you don’t take Acro in groups, because you don’t need to. You can stack for damage, because you can exploit agro mechanics.

If you want to solo champions or solo group content, then how much damage you do is secondary to having a defensive rotation that can out sustain your target’s offensive rotation.

It’s far from being for only the dreaded “casual” players.

Well I used “casual” player since how much time it takes you to deal with solo play doesn’t affect others and you can do that without optimizing you build, armor or gameplay. You can make your gameplay more forgiving with the benefit of longer time spent on doing your solo things. But when other people come into play you need to be at your best if you’re gonna be a wanted/needed member in the groups anyways. Optimizing gameplay for solo content isn’t really something you want if you care about balance and also diversity in play style. It might make one’s life easier or get you access to solo content that wasn’t intended to be solo, but balance doesn’t matter if you’re solo.

NuhDah.9812:

Well I say casual player since how much time it takes you to deal with solo play doesn’t affect others and you can do that without optimizing you build, armor or gameplay. You can make your gameplay more forgiving with the benefit of longer time spent on doing your solo things. But when other people come into play you need to be at your best if you’re gonna be a wanted/needed member in the groups anyways. Optimizing gameplay for solo content isn’t really something you want if you care about balance and also diversity in play style.

What exactly is your point here? You said Acro was pointless; I argued it’s not. I provided examples as to why it’s not. You seem to be saying those examples don’t count for…reasons? You just looking to argue with me?

They optimize gameplay all the time for solo content. Most people level characters solo. They just nerfed all of HoT open world to make it more soloable.

Nor does it have anything to do with making your gameplay “more forgiving” at the expense of it taking longer. You buff for damage only, you go balls deep on a champion, you get him to down to 20% and then die, because you can’t out sustain his damage, it’s game over. You don’t have anyone to rez you; the champion resets to full. Dead is dead. If you can’t provide even evades, dodges and blinds to out sustain him, it just doesn’t matter how much damage you do.

My point is solo content doesn’t have to do with balance which was the topic of we were discussing. You can solo through the story to level up with glass canon too. Leveling is part of the game but you can never balance the growth of different classes, all you can do make all viable during the leveling content. And safe to say, the leveling content is easy enough so you won’t have too much trouble with any spec.