Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

SB #3 doesn’t go back much but you do turn to disengage right? Don’t load much on a single weapon or it fails in every situation or it gets nerf especially a 2H in thief’s case. Staff is made to stay in combat.

I wouldn’t necessarily want to disengage entirely though, I might just want to pull back out of a bad local situation, and then move back in when it’s safe (and no, I don’t need staff 3 to do that for me, I have plenty of other tools at my disposal). I’d also want to be able to activate the move as soon as I hit the button, rather than having to adjust the camera and then hit the button. I’d also want the ability to hit the button more than once if I wanted to retreat more than a single hop.

Staff is meant to stay in combat, which is why you shouldn’t use Staff 3 unless you want to. But good news! You don’t have to use it unless you want to!

So you want a reverse sword#2 or ranger sword #2. Good luck with your request just don’t give staff any kind of smoke field.

Seems like a lot of us are torn between staff #3; we’ll see what Karl has to say.

An idea would be to change Staff skill #3 into a flip ability like Flanking Strike and Larcenous Strike.

Make the initial part of the ability cost 3 initiative; the flip ability a follow up gap closer that costs 1 and gives some sort of benefit, but you only get the flip ability if you actually contact a target with it. Kills two birds with one stone.

That way you can use the consecutive evades if you feel like you need to; other wise you can close the gap.

Bllade.1029:

Make the initial part of the ability cost 3 initiative; the flip ability a follow up gap closer that costs 1 and gives some sort of benefit, but you only get the flip ability if you actually contact a target with it. Kills two birds with one stone.

This is absolutely the right way to go. It preserves what’s already useful about Staff #3 while addressing the re-engagement concern. Making the proposed flip-skill only trigger on hit would mean you could still spam Staff #3 to get out of consecutive Immobilizes (especially from range), but that you would only be rewarded with an inexpensive re-engage if you used Staff #3 in melee range with the right timing.

Bllade.1029:

Seems like a lot of us are torn between staff #3; we’ll see what Karl has to say.

An idea would be to change Staff skill #3 into a flip ability like Flanking Strike and Larcenous Strike.

Make the initial part of the ability cost 3 initiative; the flip ability a follow up gap closer that costs 1 and gives some sort of benefit, but you only get the flip ability if you actually contact a target with it. Kills two birds with one stone.

That way you can use the consecutive evades if you feel like you need to; other wise you can close the gap.

I don’t know about that. I would rather see #2 turned into a directable evade style skill so you could re-engage with it or reposition. A rollover just makes it more like S/D. Changing 2 would give a unique flavor to staff overall rather than making it like ranger sword.

Re: Vault
I think that either giving it an evade and/or a small Daze (0.25s?) on landing would make it more interesting, while keeping the initiative cost the same. It looks like it should feel like a big thing, a big stomp, bit in reality it is kind of lackluster. Give it a small Daze on impact to really emphasize that Vault is the massive group disruption skill (while lowering its damage a bit). This would also tie in nicely with the issue I have with Impacting Disruption: that the Daredevil’s signature weapon, the staff, can’t interrupt enemies. However, by giving Daze to Vault and decreasing its damage, you can make a crowd disruption build for the Daredevil more viable, while moving some of the damage from Vault itself to Impacting Disruption, rewarding good timing rather than just giving it a flat high damage.

Re: Unhindered Combatant: Considering this dodge version’s flavour as the dash-around-the-battlefield dodge, how about having it give you somelike like a 1-2 evade after dodging, So Long As You Don’t Attack? You can be agile and zip around, but not have both that and fight.

So you want a reverse sword#2 or ranger sword #2. Good luck with your request just don’t give staff any kind of smoke field.

No, I just like Staff 3 as it is. No changes needed.

Make the initial part of the ability cost 3 initiative; the flip ability a follow up gap closer that costs 1 and gives some sort of benefit, but you only get the flip ability if you actually contact a target with it. Kills two birds with one stone.

No. We already have plenty of ways of getting back in, and this would mean that if you hit it twice, you wouldn’t end up twice as far away, you would just end up back where you started.

Ohoni.6057:

So you want a reverse sword#2 or ranger sword #2. Good luck with your request just don’t give staff any kind of smoke field.

No, I just like Staff 3 as it is. No changes needed.

Make the initial part of the ability cost 3 initiative; the flip ability a follow up gap closer that costs 1 and gives some sort of benefit, but you only get the flip ability if you actually contact a target with it. Kills two birds with one stone.

No. We already have plenty of ways of getting back in, and this would mean that if you hit it twice, you wouldn’t end up twice as far away, you would just end up back where you started.

Yes you would as long as you didn’t strike anything with your staff.

So, you get immobilized you can hit it quickly to break it that will cost 3 intiative but if you make contact like Amante said you would be rewarded with a cheap re-engage that could provide useful utility. That re-engage could also come with an evade, and would address the issue of being left in the open from rolling backwards and spending initiative to put the thief in a dis favorable position. At the same time, you’d have two opportunities to gain the benefits from DD’s passive traits.

What that Utility could be would be up to Karl, but it opens up an opportunity to address some concerns in the player base.

Yes you would as long as you didn’t strike anything with your staff.

But if I’m understanding you right, if you are in melee range, you swing, you hit, you backflip, you would not then be able to backflip again, you’d be forced to go back to where you started. You could only double backflip if you didn’t start in melee in the first place.

No, I would want this move to always be getting me further away from the enemy, I have two other Staff moves that bring me closer to them, which is two more than a lot of weapons offer. I don’t need three.

Bllade.1029:

Make the initial part of the ability cost 3 initiative; the flip ability a follow up gap closer that costs 1 and gives some sort of benefit, but you only get the flip ability if you actually contact a target with it. Kills two birds with one stone.

I can’t tell if our feedback is even being listened to – this is a fine solution to #3’s split.

Ohoni.6057:

But if I’m understanding you right, if you are in melee range, you swing, you hit, you backflip, you would not then be able to backflip again, you’d be forced to go back to where you started. You could only double backflip if you didn’t start in melee in the first place.

No, I would want this move to always be getting me further away from the enemy, I have two other Staff moves that bring me closer to them, which is two more than a lot of weapons offer. I don’t need three.

The argument seems to be that it’s more common to need to break 2-3 back to back Immobilizes than it is to break one and then get back in melee range.

While I’m not all that convinced that what you describe is a situation that comes up often enough to be a primary concern, I refer back to my original idea: adjusting Staff #3 so that if it hits, your first use of Staff #2 in the next X seconds costs nothing.

I see no reason to be against that idea, as Staff #3 would continue to function as desired in the situations you describe, while also giving you an option to re-engage without the needless waste of extremely precious resources. Everybody wins!

The argument seems to be that it’s more common to need to break 2-3 back to back Immobilizes than it is to break one and then get back in melee range.

It’s not just an immobile break though, it’s also a dodge when you don’t have enough endurance, or when you just want an excuse to launch back in with another attacks. Again, if you don’t see a good reason to hop back, then don’t press 3 and you won’t hop back.

adjusting Staff #3 so that if it hits, your first use of Staff #2 in the next X seconds costs nothing.

I could get behind that, if they’d allow it. I’m not sure it’s something they could easily add though, interacting two abilities like that. I guess it could apply a temporary buff? Alternately they could make it so that successfully hitting with #3 would gain you a portion of the Initiative spent, so that if you hit and roll back, you’re left with almost a free cast, while if you spam it to escape, the subsequent ones will cost you.

In don’t know that it’s strictly necessary though, because while you would be spending Ini to get back in, you’d be spending them on cool attacks that you’d probably want to be using anyways, so it’s not like it’d be a waste.

Amante.8109:

I refer back to my original idea: [b]adjusting Staff #3 so that if it hits, your first use of Staff #2 in the next X seconds costs nothing.

I must have missed this suggestion initially. This is an outstanding idea. Not only does it solve the concerns some people have, it also feels like a Dual Skill. It kinda has a fighting game combo vibe to it.

Shalien.9018:

Amante.8109:

I refer back to my original idea: [b]adjusting Staff #3 so that if it hits, your first use of Staff #2 in the next X seconds costs nothing.

I must have missed this suggestion initially. This is an outstanding idea. Not only does it solve the concerns some people have, it also feels like a Dual Skill. It kinda has a fighting game combo vibe to it.

I like this idea! Really good suggestion. Implement please.

How I wish we had the Scrapper hammer #3 for our staff…

Amante.8109:

BIRDPUNCHER.8263:

Is it reasonable to suggest that the Revealed-applying skills be changed to, instead of applying Revealed, simply removing stealth from affected players?

I would like to strongly echo this. The toolbelt skill on the Scrapper Elite removing players from Stealth instead of causing Revealed seems like a great direction to go with other anti-Stealth abilities. You could still leave in self-applied Reveal to stop people from chaining Stealth.

I’d also like to suggest the idea of profession-specific durations for self-applied Reveal. The Thief has been sold as the “master” of Stealth to the point where they’re balanced around using it to survive, so four seconds of Reveal hurts Thief disproportionately more than any other profession. Either way you cut it, Thief badly needs more reliable Stealth OR less reliance on it through an increase in core durability. Preferably the latter

I really dont think this would be reasonable. Most thieves Ive fought against can pretty much reapply stealth nearly instantly. Granted, there are exceptions, but something as simple as C&D and bam, yer gone again.

Stealth needs more counterplay than simply popping you out of stealth for 1 second.

I’m seeing a lot of people complaining about other classes gaining access to reveal, and want thieves immune to reveal, or reduce it, or remove it from skills, esp sneak gyro.

If you havent fought against a permastealth thief yourself though, you have no idea how frustrating it can be, simply swinging in the air and trying to guess where that thief is. Especially if its a zerker build, as are you, and he can literally one shot you with backstab.

So, no. Stealth has to have some kind of real counterplay. If the thief is too fragile without stealth, than something ELSE needs to be done about it, but stealth has to have some counterplay of some kind… and not just because of thieves, but because of mesmers too.

((frankly, I think stealth should have a counterplay that isn’t built into skills but built into the game engine itself, but I suspect that won’t be happening anytime soon))

Morfedel.4165:

I’m seeing a lot of people complaining about other classes gaining access to reveal, and want thieves immune to reveal, or reduce it, or remove it from skills, esp sneak gyro.

If you havent fought against a permastealth thief yourself though, you have no idea how frustrating it can be, simply swinging in the air and trying to guess where that thief is. Especially if its a zerker build, as are you, and he can literally one shot you with backstab.

So, no. Stealth has to have some kind of real counterplay. If the thief is too fragile without stealth, than something ELSE needs to be done about it, but stealth has to have some counterplay of some kind… and not just because of thieves, but because of mesmers too.

((frankly, I think stealth should have a counterplay that isn’t built into skills but built into the game engine itself, but I suspect that won’t be happening anytime soon))

First again, perma stealth? So how you knew he was there? :P
Then, from your other post, if he stealthed and attacked for example with backstab he CAN´T immediatly restealth —> 3sec revealed in wvw/4sec revealed in pvp.
C&D? really? From all our stealth sources this is one of our easiest ones to counter. The animation is clear so dodge and he waisted 6 initiative for nothing except standing near you.

“If you haven´t fought against a permastealth thief yourself though”
Guess what? I fought so many of them with my thief,ranger,necro,warrior,ele,guardian and mesmer. I even fought a bit against thieves with my engi. He´s my least played class.
And I´m definitly not frustrated in and after these fights. If he´s really permastealthing you just don´t care and move along or he´s a normal thief and you fight him. I LOVE that guessing game. With experience its less guessing and more knowing exactly what the thief is doing.
So I give you that question back, have you ever played thief by yourself? Thats the crucial point in every post someone makes about another class. If he haven´t played the class, his statements are not really useful.
Counters to stealth are in the game since release:
The normal reveal-debuff
Negating >access< to stealth by negating skill to gain stealth —> interrupting D/P 5 + 2 combo/ dodging or interrupting C&D
AOE on the last position the thief was or probably is (very important if he used refuge —> bomb the circel or if the 5 + 2 combo got through, you see the direction the heartseeker goes – some stealth more with more heartseekers —>go inside the black powder circel, he hits you and gets revealed for 3 or 4sec – don´t tell me thats to much damage, I do that with my own thief a lot) with more experience you better know where to deal damage on the thief, you can still hit them in stealth.
As a conlusion, reveal is the counter that is built into the game-engine itself, the others are counters you learn when learning the game, there is even dodge training in every first map in PvE now :P
Have you asked a good theif to practice with you?

Last thing…backstab can oneshot you? What are you, a bandit in queensdale?
If he really oneshots you, you are squishy as hell and he was build as a extreme glasscannon. After such a damagespike he sits there with nothing.
A normal thief will never oneshot you. Our backstabs in PvP are around 4k-6k regulary.
What can oneshot you are a thief and mesmer together.

Sigh…………………… I’m retiring from the forums… So much effort and for what. See you guys on the expansion. If animations and the thief class are not fixed by then. Then Il see you guys never.

Morfedel.4165:

I really dont think this would be reasonable. Most thieves Ive fought against can pretty much reapply stealth nearly instantly.

4 seconds is the opposite of “nearly instantly” in PvP. It’s an eternity.

Morfedel.4165:

If you havent fought against a permastealth thief yourself though, you have no idea how frustrating it can be, simply swinging in the air and trying to guess where that thief is. Especially if its a zerker build, as are you, and he can literally one shot you with backstab.

It’s only possible to do anything remotely similar to what you describe in WvW, and PvP should not be balanced around WvW, as it is an extension of the PvE of the game and more about server community than anything else.

Even in WvW, “perma-stealth” builds have a multitude of weaknesses that can be easily exploited if you know what you’re doing. But as usual, that doesn’t matter, because they’re not “fun” to fight against (nor is it “fun” to have to educate yourself about something outside of your area of experience), so the nerfs will keep on coming because these kind of opinions are the ones ArenaNet actually listens to.

Morfedel.4165:

Granted, there are exceptions, but something as simple as C&D and bam, yer gone again.

Speaking of things outside of one’s experience… if you think hitting C&D consistently is “simple”, I suggest you play a Thief in PvP for a week (or even a day) and then getting back to me with your experience afterwards

Arctarius.2649:

Sigh…………………… I’m retiring from the forums… So much effort and for what. See you guys on the expansion. If animations and the thief class are not fixed by then. Then Il see you guys never.

Same here

Morfedel.4165:

I’m seeing a lot of people complaining about other classes gaining access to reveal, and want thieves immune to reveal, or reduce it, or remove it from skills, esp sneak gyro.

If you havent fought against a permastealth thief yourself though, you have no idea how frustrating it can be, simply swinging in the air and trying to guess where that thief is. Especially if its a zerker build, as are you, and he can literally one shot you with backstab.

So, no. Stealth has to have some kind of real counterplay. If the thief is too fragile without stealth, than something ELSE needs to be done about it, but stealth has to have some counterplay of some kind… and not just because of thieves, but because of mesmers too.

((frankly, I think stealth should have a counterplay that isn’t built into skills but built into the game engine itself, but I suspect that won’t be happening anytime soon))

And this is why we keep getting nerfed. Simply comes down to that if you can’t simply bash it with a hammer is must be OP. Just “PLEASE” stop breaking the game because you decide not to learn more than a few button smashes…

PopeUrban.2578:

I remember when we were masters of stealth.

Then engineers got a mobile super-refuge.

And they still don’t rely on stealth to defend themselves.

Look, Karl, I realize this is the DD feedback thread, but acro was eviscerated, and with all the reveal being tossed around to every single other class in the game SA is being eviscerated as well.

You want our role in PvP to be back capping and +1? Well that’s awful, but if you’re going that direction go all the way. Give us more run speed, shadow steps, and mobility so we can at least reliably run from fights since it’s obvious that we’re not supposed to be able to win them unless we select the mandatory new evade playstyle.

I don’t even play a stealth build any more and I’m just plain upset about the constant inattention to thief stealth reliance as more and more revealed creeps its way in to the game.

how does it even make sense that the class The developers stated is “the master of stealth” actually worse at providing and maintaining stealth for both allies and self than not one but both pet spam classes?

How is thief burst even a problem when compared to mesmer burst, or the upcoming engineer stunlock?

Isn’t it more problematic to have a class that can continually hand out lethal damage while remaining completely invisible? Didn’t you nerf cloak & dagger because of that exact issue?

Isn’t it more problematic for a class that can literally stunlock someone for upwards of ten seconds to also hand out obscene amounts of stealth to his allies?

I get that daredevil is all about the evasion. I’m a fan of that. But core thief is not in a good place and it is the only class that has all of its passive defenses turned off when revealed by an outside source

Since you’re in charge of thief balance at the moment, can you enlighten us as to why you feel this is an acceptable limitation for thieves, but not for classes with far better innate passive survivability tools?

Aye, well said.

As a returning player who also mained thief since launch, I have decided, like many others, that I won’t be purchasing the expansion.

Because I won’t pay for something I don’t want. Why on Earth would anyone pay for an inferior setup?

So please, take the daredevil traitline back. Take back the staff and it’s silly copy/pasted animations. Take back the awkward new dodges. Fix the core thief, restore acrobatics to what it was and actually come up with something original for DD that doesn’t step all over existing traitlines, harming the core thief in the process. Over the last few weeks I’ve read a number of effective ideas on these forums that are better than acro 2.0.

I’m absolutely disgusted with the decisions made with the thief specialisation changes and I reject them completely.

Karl is actively communicating with Tempest community.

No love for DD.

PopeUrban.2578:

I remember when we were masters of stealth.

Then engineers got a mobile super-refuge.

And they still don’t rely on stealth to defend themselves.

Look, Karl, I realize this is the DD feedback thread, but acro was eviscerated, and with all the reveal being tossed around to every single other class in the game SA is being eviscerated as well.

You want our role in PvP to be back capping and +1? Well that’s awful, but if you’re going that direction go all the way. Give us more run speed, shadow steps, and mobility so we can at least reliably run from fights since it’s obvious that we’re not supposed to be able to win them unless we select the mandatory new evade playstyle.

I don’t even play a stealth build any more and I’m just plain upset about the constant inattention to thief stealth reliance as more and more revealed creeps its way in to the game.

how does it even make sense that the class The developers stated is “the master of stealth” actually worse at providing and maintaining stealth for both allies and self than not one but both pet spam classes?

How is thief burst even a problem when compared to mesmer burst, or the upcoming engineer stunlock?

Isn’t it more problematic to have a class that can continually hand out lethal damage while remaining completely invisible? Didn’t you nerf cloak & dagger because of that exact issue?

Isn’t it more problematic for a class that can literally stunlock someone for upwards of ten seconds to also hand out obscene amounts of stealth to his allies?

I get that daredevil is all about the evasion. I’m a fan of that. But core thief is not in a good place and it is the only class that has all of its passive defenses turned off when revealed by an outside source

Since you’re in charge of thief balance at the moment, can you enlighten us as to why you feel this is an acceptable limitation for thieves, but not for classes with far better innate passive survivability tools?

+1

Regarding staff:

I don’t see how a thief can play staff instead of dagger/x or sword/x

I think or staff needs more evade/inv gap closer or vault needs a rework to compete with shortbow #5

Staff lacks in mobility role to compete with shortbow and survivability melee options for a melee role.

Personally I’d like staff like a mobility weapon to have shortbow alternative.

Karl,

We delivered reams of useful feedback over the weekend and still have yet to hear back on a number of vital issues. Can we please get an update on what’s being worked on?

Shogun.7401:

Karl is actively communicating with Tempest community.

No love for DD.

See, and this is what truly upsets me – I understand there’s a long road ahead, I understand we might not see everything we need in place when Heart of Thorns launches. But the fact that we’re literally being left out here to rot truly upsets me, the fact that it’s painfully obvious we’re not being given the same care as the other professions is absolutely abhorrent. There needs to be communication, we’ve been ignored for long enough and it only continues to get worse. Even if you’re not making genuine progress, at least respond to feedback and give us your own thoughts.

Morfedel.4165:

I’m seeing a lot of people complaining about other classes gaining access to reveal, and want thieves immune to reveal, or reduce it, or remove it from skills, esp sneak gyro.

If you havent fought against a permastealth thief yourself though, you have no idea how frustrating it can be, simply swinging in the air and trying to guess where that thief is. Especially if its a zerker build, as are you, and he can literally one shot you with backstab.

So, no. Stealth has to have some kind of real counterplay. If the thief is too fragile without stealth, than something ELSE needs to be done about it, but stealth has to have some counterplay of some kind… and not just because of thieves, but because of mesmers too.

((frankly, I think stealth should have a counterplay that isn’t built into skills but built into the game engine itself, but I suspect that won’t be happening anytime soon))

This is a clear “i don’t know what i’m talking about” situation. He’s mixing builds and playstyles just to support his QQ that is just a L2P issue.

Please don’t post feedback about a profession you never played. Thank you.

GM minor trait feedback- Endurance Thief (1 dodge on steal)
I think it delivers not enough value here are some points

GM traits value

Daredevil
Endurance Thief: 1 dodge per 20 sec (natural number of dodges in 20 sec: 2 from endurance regeneration.)
potential value: only if u hit steal right(5% steals do not work) and dodge has an effect (dmg prevention or dmg dealt)

Chronomancer
Time Marches On: You move 25% faster. The duration of incoming movement-impairing conditions is reduced by 25%.
25% value all the time, 50% value during cond. Shorter immob, cripple saves live.
Value 25% – 50%. Avarage 37.5%. Guarenteed Real pvp value ~ 30%

Scrapper
Impact Savant: Outgoing Stun: 25% Incoming Stun: 25%. Similar to mesmer. Value 25% – 50%. Avarage 37.5%. Guaranteed Real pvp value ~ 30%

Berserk gm trait
2 secs of quickness every 10-15 seconds

As u can see all cool classes get very strong gm traits with guaranteed value while daredevil gets small chance to get medicore value. i also think daredevil lacks base +dmg modifirers.

So tell me, which trait is good and why 1 dodge per 20 seconds is very poor value

I wonder why DrD is getting such poor treatment from ANet. I wish we had one of the devs who were passionate about the profession or that ANet required their devs to communicate with the community.

Sitting in silence while we provide a ton of awesome/helpful feedback is just so lame. Even if 100% of our feedback is incorporated we wont be in the top 3 professions. We’re not asking for OP stuff, we’re asking to be competitive.

Might as well keep this Feedback train rolling;

How do we feel about Staff #4? Any Suggestions?

How about Channeled Vigor the DD heal?

Also Amante, it might be nice to create a brief summary of what we’ve discussed to weed through all of the posts not on the topic of DD suggestions for improvement.

Since you seem to be really good at that, would you mind?

Hey Karl! Could we perhaps get some word on idle/running animations for the staff? Also, there are copious amounts of threads popping up on Thief mechanics for the DrD and base profession being under tuned for the expansion. I feel like it would be great to have some sort of insight on any future changes that Thief is awaiting in order to compose a general ground rule for our constructive criticism. Thanks!

Bllade.1029:

Might as well keep this Feedback train rolling;

How do we feel about Staff #4? Any Suggestions?

How about Channeled Vigor the DD heal?

Consensus on Staff 4 is to make it take 1/2 second cast time and put down a darkness field that pulses blind for 3 seconds.

Not many people talk about the heal because they aren’t planning on using it. A 3 person cleave physical attack that heals you and if you hit someone returns endurance would be leagues above the weird super long channel skill we have now.

Shalien.9018:

Bllade.1029:

Might as well keep this Feedback train rolling;

How do we feel about Staff #4? Any Suggestions?

How about Channeled Vigor the DD heal?

Consensus on Staff 4 is to make it take 1/2 second cast time and put down a darkness field that pulses blind for 3 seconds.

Not many people talk about the heal because they aren’t planning on using it. A 3 person cleave physical attack that heals you and if you hit someone returns endurance would be leagues above the weird super long channel skill we have now.

How about a heal that returns 100 endurance instantly and heals a small amount (~2.5k) and then gives you a buff that the next 3 times you evade attacks you gain health (~1k) per successful evasion. Put a time limit of 10 seconds for the buff.

Yeah that could be pretty neat. Basically anything but a 2+ second channeled heal as our in-the-thick-of-combat heal.

Maugetarr.6823:

Shalien.9018:

Bllade.1029:

Might as well keep this Feedback train rolling;

How do we feel about Staff #4? Any Suggestions?

How about Channeled Vigor the DD heal?

Consensus on Staff 4 is to make it take 1/2 second cast time and put down a darkness field that pulses blind for 3 seconds.

Not many people talk about the heal because they aren’t planning on using it. A 3 person cleave physical attack that heals you and if you hit someone returns endurance would be leagues above the weird super long channel skill we have now.

How about a heal that returns 100 endurance instantly and heals a small amount (~2.5k) and then gives you a buff that the next 3 times you evade attacks you gain health (~1k) per successful evasion. Put a time limit of 10 seconds for the buff.

With the reveal timer, 3 would be pointless, I like your idea but instead it should be, for 10 seconds you have ( the next evade you make grants you stealth) and the buff is removed once stealth is granted. Even in the moment you get stealth, that’s 1 second, then at least 2 while in stealth, then 4 of reveal. 7 seconds gone so I don’t see the point in the 3.

Arctarius.2649:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shalien.9018:

Bllade.1029:

Might as well keep this Feedback train rolling;

How do we feel about Staff #4? Any Suggestions?

How about Channeled Vigor the DD heal?

Consensus on Staff 4 is to make it take 1/2 second cast time and put down a darkness field that pulses blind for 3 seconds.

Not many people talk about the heal because they aren’t planning on using it. A 3 person cleave physical attack that heals you and if you hit someone returns endurance would be leagues above the weird super long channel skill we have now.

How about a heal that returns 100 endurance instantly and heals a small amount (~2.5k) and then gives you a buff that the next 3 times you evade attacks you gain health (~1k) per successful evasion. Put a time limit of 10 seconds for the buff.

With the reveal timer, 3 would be pointless, I like your idea but instead it should be, for 10 seconds you have ( the next evade you make grants you stealth) and the buff is removed once stealth is granted. Even in the moment you get stealth, that’s 1 second, then at least 2 while in stealth, then 4 of reveal. 7 seconds gone so I don’t see the point in the 3.

That’s interesting, the tooltip of the heal actually reads “Physical.” What if we combined your idea with a unique heal that actually was physical?

If you look at all of the other specializations the heal kind of supports the role they’re meant to fill; Example: Tempest’s heal is more support; Reapers heal does damage and provides the means to do more damage via Life force.

What if Daredevil’s heal incorporated a targetable offensive physical attack? Could use your idea to give an example:

Evade forward to your target and gain 100 endurance and a small heal. Upon striking your target gain access to a buff that allows your next three attacks to heal you additionally for each attack landed.

A heal like this would really promote staying in the fight, while at the same time giving the option to use it for a retreat/gap opener.

Arctarius.2649:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shalien.9018:

Bllade.1029:

Might as well keep this Feedback train rolling;

How do we feel about Staff #4? Any Suggestions?

How about Channeled Vigor the DD heal?

Consensus on Staff 4 is to make it take 1/2 second cast time and put down a darkness field that pulses blind for 3 seconds.

Not many people talk about the heal because they aren’t planning on using it. A 3 person cleave physical attack that heals you and if you hit someone returns endurance would be leagues above the weird super long channel skill we have now.

How about a heal that returns 100 endurance instantly and heals a small amount (~2.5k) and then gives you a buff that the next 3 times you evade attacks you gain health (~1k) per successful evasion. Put a time limit of 10 seconds for the buff.

With the reveal timer, 3 would be pointless, I like your idea but instead it should be, for 10 seconds you have ( the next evade you make grants you stealth) and the buff is removed once stealth is granted. Even in the moment you get stealth, that’s 1 second, then at least 2 while in stealth, then 4 of reveal. 7 seconds gone so I don’t see the point in the 3.

Well DD seems to be an out of stealth fighter, so that’s why I put the 3 evades part in. Basically it would be kitten heal with 2 dodges attached so it could compete with withdraw. I don’t understand your comments about stealth an reveal attached to it as it would be instant initially and then give a 10 second window for the rest of the health gain.

Karl McLain.5604:

• Dash – The extra distance has been removed for now as well. Dash now breaks immobilize in addition to its other effects. For now, the animation is just going to run you in the direction you’re dodging.

this is huge.
thanks

Karl McLain.5604:

A short update:
We’ve been working heavily on the dodge abilities, making them react the same way that your normal dodge occurs. There have been a lot of long hours, but we managed to get this functionality in for the next beta.

• The ‘Bound’ dodge animation is shorter and more appropriate for a dodge.
• Dash – The extra distance has been removed for now as well. Dash now breaks immobilize in addition to its other effects. For now, the animation is just going to run you in the direction you’re dodging.
• Impaling Lotus – The jump has been removed, as it caused issues that couldn’t be remedied. I’ll update if other things happen.

-Karl

Why do I have a feeling these will get recycled for months after HoT release until you finally scrap them, make them F3-F5 (just so all the work that will went into them won’t be complete waste) and give thieves proper grandmaster traits.

Suggestion:
Dash – make it travel more distance. This trait will be useless without this feature. Now it’s just slightly improved Expedious Dodger from acro line, and that’s sad for a grandmaster trait.

Karl McLain.5604:

A short update:
We’ve been working heavily on the dodge abilities, making them react the same way that your normal dodge occurs. There have been a lot of long hours, but we managed to get this functionality in for the next beta.

• The ‘Bound’ dodge animation is shorter and more appropriate for a dodge.
• Dash – The extra distance has been removed for now as well. Dash now breaks immobilize in addition to its other effects. For now, the animation is just going to run you in the direction you’re dodging.
• Impaling Lotus – The jump has been removed, as it caused issues that couldn’t be remedied. I’ll update if other things happen.

Other things:

• re: Shalien. I haven’t got this in the next beta, but the plan is to drastically reduce the cast time of Channeled Vigor. (3/4 to 1 second or so)
• Idle/running animations while wielding a staff are not planned to change at this time. There are, however, a couple of animations being worked on as development continues.

-Karl

I will say thank you for the response. A few sentences goes along way to at least know we aren’t talking to the wall. I would though like to know if there are any plans to balance any of the “core” thief traits outside of DD. Some acknowledgment that there are some balance issues that are being looked into once DD is finished would be nice. I know the DD is supposed to be the selling flagship for thieves in the Xpac. However at this time it does seem like you “have to” take DD as a trait line where other classes their specializations are there to just play a different flavor. Other Elite Specializations are not “must takes” for survival.

As for the dodge feedback. I believe we are moving in the right direct with Dash. I didn’t understand why it would remove cripple and freeze but not immobilize. Also even though the extra dodge distance may further get you out of danger it may also dodge you out of one AOE into another. Also for DD (dagger/dagger) this creates too much disconnect in a fight. Burning a shadow step, weapon swap or heart seeker to re-engage hurts.

As for Lotus I am curious how this will work. I personally liked the death blossom effect however there are times I would not use death blossom due to simply falling off a cliff in mid fight. I am assuming this to be one of the issues?

martin.1653:

Karl McLain.5604:

A short update:
We’ve been working heavily on the dodge abilities, making them react the same way that your normal dodge occurs. There have been a lot of long hours, but we managed to get this functionality in for the next beta.

• The ‘Bound’ dodge animation is shorter and more appropriate for a dodge.
• Dash – The extra distance has been removed for now as well. Dash now breaks immobilize in addition to its other effects. For now, the animation is just going to run you in the direction you’re dodging.
• Impaling Lotus – The jump has been removed, as it caused issues that couldn’t be remedied. I’ll update if other things happen.

-Karl

Why do I have a feeling these will get recycled for months after HoT release until you finally scrap them, make them F3-F5 (just so all the work that will went into them won’t be complete waste) and give thieves proper grandmaster traits.

Suggestion:
Dash – make it travel more distance. This trait will be useless without this feature. Now it’s just slightly improved Expedious Dodger from acro line, and that’s sad for a grandmaster trait.

You think removing immobilize on any/every dodge is bad…? Are you crazy. That’s incredible.

I liked that that dash made dodge go farther T.T

Karl McLain.5604:

A short update:
We’ve been working heavily on the dodge abilities, making them react the same way that your normal dodge occurs. There have been a lot of long hours, but we managed to get this functionality in for the next beta.

• The ‘Bound’ dodge animation is shorter and more appropriate for a dodge.
• Dash – The extra distance has been removed for now as well. Dash now breaks immobilize in addition to its other effects. For now, the animation is just going to run you in the direction you’re dodging.
• Impaling Lotus – The jump has been removed, as it caused issues that couldn’t be remedied. I’ll update if other things happen.

Other things:

• re: Shalien. I haven’t got this in the next beta, but the plan is to drastically reduce the cast time of Channeled Vigor. (3/4 to 1 second or so)
• Idle/running animations while wielding a staff are not planned to change at this time. There are, however, a couple of animations being worked on as development continues.

-Karl

I liked the extra distance on dash

Will these be the actually animations going forward or is there a plan to make new once/ improve the old animation?
For idle/running animation, is that something possible to do? and something you guys hope to change?

The whole point of dash seemed like we would get increased dodge distance.
Making Dash go far would finally remove the need of Shadowstep (kinda). Just connect 2 dashes and you’re out of the harm’s way. If you fear of falling off the ledge you simply don’t pick Dash.

Karl McLain.5604:

A short update:
We’ve been working heavily on the dodge abilities, making them react the same way that your normal dodge occurs. There have been a lot of long hours, but we managed to get this functionality in for the next beta.

• The ‘Bound’ dodge animation is shorter and more appropriate for a dodge.
• Dash – The extra distance has been removed for now as well. Dash now breaks immobilize in addition to its other effects. For now, the animation is just going to run you in the direction you’re dodging.
• Impaling Lotus – The jump has been removed, as it caused issues that couldn’t be remedied. I’ll update if other things happen.

Other things:

• re: Shalien. I haven’t got this in the next beta, but the plan is to drastically reduce the cast time of Channeled Vigor. (3/4 to 1 second or so)
• Idle/running animations while wielding a staff are not planned to change at this time. There are, however, a couple of animations being worked on as development continues.

-Karl

this basically means Bound is the only dodge worth using on Thief besides the default

I can only speak for myself, but it’s good to hear what is and isn’t feasible at this stage of development.

Appreciate the hard work and wish for the best, hopefully your animation tweaks add a good rhythm and fluidity of motion to the Daredevil’s staff.

It’s a good thing to have updates but it kind of makes me worried.
Will the Daredevil be ready by the launch of HoT ?
At this point I’d rather we didn’t have any release date, so devs would have the time to properly work on what needs to be improved instead of having to rush thing so that just the crucial features work in time.

For the dash animation I suggest something similar to the revenant shiro close-in shadowstep.
the first few frames to give the direction of the dash, then some kind of shadowstep to that said direction (it may or may not make the problem of the animation/distance ratio easier to fix)

Karl McLain.5604:

• Dash – The extra distance has been removed for now as well. Dash now breaks immobilize in addition to its other effects. For now, the animation is just going to run you in the direction

Hate to say it but like many others I preferred the distance on dash. It’s what made it unique. Distance can be applied in many different ways both aggressively and defensively, plus it could have been something that actually allowed P/P builds to work.

I guess not

Thanks for the response, Karl.

Daredevil idle and attack animations are, quite frankly, the biggest letdown for me of the entire elite specialization. Wielding it like a hammer and clunking it about completely destroys the feel of playing it. I hope you guys don’t just backburner it once HoT comes out and that it’s something we get very close after release.

The immobilize clear on Dash is great, but losing the distance is kind of sad. We’ll have to see how it plays. Completely losing the animation on Impaling Lotus is depressing, so hopefully you guys will make a special animation for it down the road.