Guild Wars 2

Bllade.1029:

Yulan.4069:

Bllade.1029:

Here are your GM traits, they compliment your over all play style depending on your needs.

Please enlighten me on how this isn’t exactly what the 3 different dodge traits do.

I would enlighten you, but that would take me a wall of text to show you the point we’re trying to make here.

Best thing I can say for you is to look up all of the other Grandmaster traits of the other specializations then compare them to what we have currently. Note the differences and i’m sure you’ll come to your own conclusion.

I think the impasse we’re coming to is that they really are just traits intended to enhance the new line’s bonus. That said, 50 more endurance is underwhelming which is why we’re arguing about it:

1) Assuming the new dodges were part of the bonus, DrD would be up to par with others if it had a selection box.

2) Assuming that the traits are there to compliment the new spec, the new spec needs something like increased endurance regen because 50 more endurance is half as effective as using Signet of Agility in a fight (even less so if you consider it’s an AoE endurance refill and cleanse).

I think it’s fair to say that everyone thinks something else could be done to the baseline spec, but depending on how we see what is part of the baseline spec is causing huge differences in opinion.

I honestly can’t see why you’d argue in defense of losing a set of real GM traits unless you’re one of those people who argues for the status quo by default. By having the dodges come from a Revenant Legend style drop-down list—as it should have been in the first place--you lose nothing, and gain what all the other elite specializations already have. Who doesn’t like having more options?

Maugetarr.6823:

2) Assuming that the traits are there to compliment the new spec, the new spec needs something like increased endurance regen because 50 more endurance is half as effective as using Signet of Agility in a fight (even less so if you consider it’s an AoE endurance refill and cleanse).

The advantage of the using SoA is that as if you have an independent endurance bar that refills at the same time as your endurance. The 3rd endurance bar has to wait for the 1st and 2nd bar to refill before it can start refilling. Big difference.

Now if each endurance bar refills independently and can refill at the same time, then we might be on to something very useful.

Amante.8109:

I honestly can’t see why you’d argue in defense of losing a set of real GM traits unless you’re one of those people who argues for the status quo by default. By having the dodges come from a Revenant Legend style drop-down list—as it should have been in the first place--you lose nothing, and gain what all the other elite specializations already have. Who doesn’t like having more options?

You don’t think 450 range dodge that removes immoblize is GM worthy?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

2. Actually, since the max endurance is increased, you’re not wasting as much endurance-giving traits/skills. For example, if you used signet of agility previously at 50 endurance, you only got 50/100 endurance. Now you have more potential for gaining endurance as well, because at that same level you can get the full amount of endurance. You have to think about that as well.

What you’re missing is that, the larger the endurance bar gets, the longer it will take to refill, thus you might not take SoA but you are forced to take something with Vigor or forced to spec for Brawler’s Tenacity just to refill the bars quickly.

If the Dev didn’t see any problems with this, there will be no traits like BT (endurance refill) and Endurance Thief. The very existence of these traits are red flags that the increase of the endurance bar is a problem already in development and they’re simply massaging it to make it work when it should have been scrapped.

Interesting argument. But I wouldn’t say you’re forced to take something like brawlers tenacity. Of course they’re there to help you out, and support the whole spec’s idea and theme. But I’m getting the vibe that you think 50 extra endurance is a bad thing. I can see why you’d say it’s bad because it takes longer to refill your bar, but it doesn’t always need to be FULL. And as I said before, you’re not restricted as much with the larger endurance gains coming from traits or skills.

BUT I do see a point in as to that being the only thing we get (50 extra endurance) So it would be nice if we got extra endurance regen, but then again, we already have a LOT of that as daredevil. These are interesting arguments though.

BobbyT.7192:

You don’t think 450 range dodge that removes immoblize is GM worthy?

My thoughts on the usefulness of Dash aside, I think you’re setting up what they call a false dilemma. There is no intrinsic reason that the dodges have to be attached to GM traits, other than that was how they were first designed internally.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

2. Actually, since the max endurance is increased, you’re not wasting as much endurance-giving traits/skills. For example, if you used signet of agility previously at 50 endurance, you only got 50/100 endurance. Now you have more potential for gaining endurance as well, because at that same level you can get the full amount of endurance. You have to think about that as well.

What you’re missing is that, the larger the endurance bar gets, the longer it will take to refill, thus you might not take SoA but you are forced to take something with Vigor or forced to spec for Brawler’s Tenacity just to refill the bars quickly.

If the Dev didn’t see any problems with this, there will be no traits like BT (endurance refill) and Endurance Thief. The very existence of these traits are red flags that the increase of the endurance bar is a problem already in development and they’re simply massaging it to make it work when it should have been scrapped.

Just about half the skills in the DD line regen endurance. This was by design as if they did not intend for these skills they would just make the DD endurance regen a 3rd faster.

I don’t see the bump from 100-150 endurance a hinder if you are playing inside the DD skills. However my concerns are that DD has become a must for survival . If you decide not to take BT and say screw the staff and it’s mastery in efforts to play anything different, there is where you might take your endurance regen hit when trying to diversify.

The last beta I ran DD with duel daggers and pistols. (don’t care for staff) dagger spam does have some endurance regen and I was using BT and physical skills. I did not see much lose of endurance that would have crippled me. Though it people are running s/p, p/p, and not using BT with physical skills they might.

alchemyst.2165:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

2. Actually, since the max endurance is increased, you’re not wasting as much endurance-giving traits/skills. For example, if you used signet of agility previously at 50 endurance, you only got 50/100 endurance. Now you have more potential for gaining endurance as well, because at that same level you can get the full amount of endurance. You have to think about that as well.

What you’re missing is that, the larger the endurance bar gets, the longer it will take to refill, thus you might not take SoA but you are forced to take something with Vigor or forced to spec for Brawler’s Tenacity just to refill the bars quickly.

If the Dev didn’t see any problems with this, there will be no traits like BT (endurance refill) and Endurance Thief. The very existence of these traits are red flags that the increase of the endurance bar is a problem already in development and they’re simply massaging it to make it work when it should have been scrapped.

Interesting argument. But I wouldn’t say you’re forced to take something like brawlers tenacity. Of course they’re there to help you out, and support the whole spec’s idea and theme. But I’m getting the vibe that you think 50 extra endurance is a bad thing. I can see why you’d say it’s bad because it takes longer to refill your bar, but it doesn’t always need to be FULL. And as I said before, you’re not restricted as much with the larger endurance gains coming from traits or skills.

Then that’s no different than having 2 bars. In that case, no augmentation to Thief at all. Don’t you see that?

BUT I do see a point in as to that being the only thing we get (50 extra endurance) So it would be nice if we got extra endurance regen, but then again, we already have a LOT of that as daredevil. These are interesting arguments though.

Exactly. What needs to happen is that each endurance bar needs to refill independently so that they can refill at the same time, which gives a lot of value to the 3rd bar.

Driften.8716:

The last beta I ran DD with duel daggers and pistols. (don’t care for staff) dagger spam does have some endurance regen and I was using BT and physical skills. I did not see much lose of endurance that would have crippled me. Though it people are running s/p, p/p, and not using BT with physical skills they might.

Exactly. You are forced to take BT and the Physical skills just so you can refill your endurance. It pigeons hole any build using DD.

For other builds to not notice this is to also spec for Acro for Vigor…but who would do that?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

alchemyst.2165:

2. Actually, since the max endurance is increased, you’re not wasting as much endurance-giving traits/skills. For example, if you used signet of agility previously at 50 endurance, you only got 50/100 endurance. Now you have more potential for gaining endurance as well, because at that same level you can get the full amount of endurance. You have to think about that as well.

What you’re missing is that, the larger the endurance bar gets, the longer it will take to refill, thus you might not take SoA but you are forced to take something with Vigor or forced to spec for Brawler’s Tenacity just to refill the bars quickly.

If the Dev didn’t see any problems with this, there will be no traits like BT (endurance refill) and Endurance Thief. The very existence of these traits are red flags that the increase of the endurance bar is a problem already in development and they’re simply massaging it to make it work when it should have been scrapped.

Interesting argument. But I wouldn’t say you’re forced to take something like brawlers tenacity. Of course they’re there to help you out, and support the whole spec’s idea and theme. But I’m getting the vibe that you think 50 extra endurance is a bad thing. I can see why you’d say it’s bad because it takes longer to refill your bar, but it doesn’t always need to be FULL. And as I said before, you’re not restricted as much with the larger endurance gains coming from traits or skills.

Then that’s no different than having 2 bars. In that case, no augmentation to Thief at all. Don’t you see that?

BUT I do see a point in as to that being the only thing we get (50 extra endurance) So it would be nice if we got extra endurance regen, but then again, we already have a LOT of that as daredevil. These are interesting arguments though.

Exactly. What needs to happen is that each endurance bar needs to refill independently so that they can refill at the same time, which gives a lot of value to the 3rd bar.

It’s different from 2 bars because you can have 3 dodges, and get more effect out of certain things that give endurance.

But for the endurance bar suggestion are you speaking of exclusively Daredevil or across all classes?

P.S. I didn’t usually run with BT in beta and still had good success in keeping my endurance up due to minors, vigor (which comes with bountiful theft) dagger AA, etc.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

2) Assuming that the traits are there to compliment the new spec, the new spec needs something like increased endurance regen because 50 more endurance is half as effective as using Signet of Agility in a fight (even less so if you consider it’s an AoE endurance refill and cleanse).

The advantage of the using SoA is that as if you have an independent endurance bar that refills at the same time as your endurance. The 3rd endurance bar has to wait for the 1st and 2nd bar to refill before it can start refilling. Big difference.

Now if each endurance bar refills independently and can refill at the same time, then we might be on to something very useful.

That was my point though. 50 more endurance isn’t anything except 1 more dodge. My whole point was though that something needs to be buffed, but whether you see the dodge traits as part of the new mechanic or as traits leads to big differences of opinion.

(yes, your point of the CD recharge being independent of endurance is also correct and should serve to illustrate the point that something needs to be improved somewhere, which is why I’ll continue to advocate scaling the endurance regen with the total capacity.)

For must professions the optimal time to trigger Superior Sigil of Energy is when you have 50 endurance or less. Any later and you lose some portion of the 50 endurance it grants. The Daredevil has a wider window and more flexibility when to pop it and still gain the full benefit. And that’s assuming it doesn’t actually work as advertised and give you 75 endurance…

Nike.2631:

For must professions the optimal time to trigger Superior Sigil of Energy is when you have 50 endurance or less. Any later and you lose some portion of the 50 endurance it grants. The Daredevil has a wider window and more flexibility when to pop it and still gain the full benefit. And that’s assuming it doesn’t actually work as advertised and give you 75 endurance…

^ He explains it the best.

Nike.2631:

For must professions the optimal time to trigger Superior Sigil of Energy is when you have 50 endurance or less. Any later and you lose some portion of the 50 endurance it grants. The Daredevil has a wider window and more flexibility when to pop it and still gain the full benefit. And that’s assuming it doesn’t actually work as advertised and give you 75 endurance…

That’s cool and all, but considering the shared resources for thief weapon skills, thieves already benefit less from swapping anyway. Just because the endurance bar will make it easier to get the full potential of one sigil isn’t enough of a reason to leave the spec bonus sub par overall.

Nike.2631:

For must professions the optimal time to trigger Superior Sigil of Energy is when you have 50 endurance or less. Any later and you lose some portion of the 50 endurance it grants. The Daredevil has a wider window and more flexibility when to pop it and still gain the full benefit. And that’s assuming it doesn’t actually work as advertised and give you 75 endurance…

The extra window of opportunity doesn’t equate to what other professions are getting with the Elite spec.

The overall idea here is that DD GM traits only effect them when they dodge. In that 1 second channel time you get the benefit of a GM trait.

What do you get when you’re not dodging from your GM traits? Nothing.

So for you math people out there before enhanced regeneration (Vigor, passive traits..etc.) You get three seconds total to benefit from the “strongest” traits in your specialization, before they go on cool down and you regenerate enough endurance to benefit from them again.

Or we can very easily remove the Dodges from the GM line and create three new GM traits that would benefit you’re entire style of play; whether you were dodging or not. That is what a GM trait should be and has been until now.

Reaper benefits from their GM traits whether they’re in Death Shroud or not, exception being Reapers onslaught and that still affects ALL of the shroud abilities.

Tempest GM traits are the same way, they can benefit from them whether they’re overloading or not. They have that choice.

Dragonhunter, Berserker, Scrapper…etc…

It comes down to if you’re only “getting 1 more dodge per encounter”… you’re doing it wrong. How the heck are you positioning yourself so badly you need 3 dodges every 10 second (because by Grenth if you aren’t rocking Sigils of Energy on a dodge-monger….) and how can you possibly be doing any decent DPS with more than 20% of your time locked up in dodge-state?

Quit playing jackrabbit and position properly! There’s no PvE content in the game that should be taxing your dodges that hard and if its a player up in your grill like that POP SOME STEALTH. Nobody needs a dodge every 3.333 seconds like a metronome ticking and that means you are going to get times when you’re recharging your endurance pool above 100 which nobody else can do. Bamm! Every time that happens you are getting more than one extra dodge per encounter.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The extra window of opportunity doesn’t equate to what other professions are getting with the Elite spec.

The people whose decision matters don’t agree. I’m not that interested in fuzzy comparisons to other profession that work nothing like thief. I’m looking at how to leverage what we’re being given to maximum effect. Clearly there’s some skill cap at work, because there are going to be people who play Daredevils badly, and people that are going to be beasts.

Amante.8109:

How many other elite specializations trade a whole tier of trait choices for their elite mechanic, exactly? Oh right… zero.

Or are you going to insist with a straight face that it’s an extra dodge-bar pip?

Believe it or not, the extra dodge roll is the mechanic here. The GM traits all interact with that extra mechanic. Some people keep saying “Does Reaper need a GM trait to enter RS?” and the answer is obviously not, but a number of its traits interact with RS just like how a number of the DD traits interact with dodging. I realize that a dodging elite specialization may be hard to grasp, but that’s what it is.

Maugetarr.6823:

Im going to agree with you here partially. I think bound could use some strengthening (mechanically, not a numbers boost, but rather a way to make it hit better), but other than that, they are GM’s made to augment out spec boost. I’m only partially agreeing because 1 more dodge is pretty weak mechanically for an elite spec. If they rolled the healing into the condi removal trait and added a trait to improve endurance regen and not just capacity, the whole spec would fill out better. (PS: good condi removal when traiting for it should be part of core thief and not necessary on elite spec).

As an explanation as to why I think the extra dodge alone is weak: it’s equal to half of the endurance gained by using signet of agility or hard to catch proccing. Adding an endurance regen that stacked with vigor would be more useful. Simply scaling base endurance regen with the max size would be best I think, so our base regen when taking DrD would be 7.5.

It’s similar to increasing your Vitality. Increasing your Vitality increases your overall bulk, but really all it does is just give you more frontloaded health with which you can take initial hits. If you can never get back to full HP during a fight, it really doesn’t help you much throughout the fight. However, when you gain increased Vitality, you still see it as a good thing that is helping you out a lot. Much like that, Daredevil works by increasing your endurance by a full 50, and while it doesn’t change how much you gain over time, it enables you to do things that you couldn’t before. Like what, you may ask? Have you ever had to double dodge in order to evade a particularly nasty and persistent group of enemies? Now you can dodge once more after you do that. That’s actually really strong. It means in PvP that people don’t get a free burst on you, and in PvE it means that you’ve got one extra chance to evade an attack that might otherwise down you.

It may not be immediately obvious how awesome this is, but truly it is awesome. The value of this is compounded if you’re using a Staff with Staff Master as well, because that enables you to regenerate endurance at a truly astonishing rate. You even gain an extra 50 endurance back when you steal with Daredevil. All things considered, it’s fairly easy to get back to 150 endurance in the middle of a fight and then have three full dodges with which to avoid incoming attacks.

Amante.8109:

BobbyT.7192:

You don’t think 450 range dodge that removes immoblize is GM worthy?

My thoughts on the usefulness of Dash aside, I think you’re setting up what they call a false dilemma. There is no intrinsic reason that the dodges have to be attached to GM traits, other than that was how they were first designed internally.

I really don’t see a reason that they can’t.
Your looking into each mechanic, each add on, each spec and class too much in a vacuum, and not what it can do to the class as a whole.

You big argument is " look at what each class has gotten"…. ok
Engineer has a big hammer, really nice traits, and little dinkies (one that is a class mechanic) that will die to a stiff breeze.
Guardian get a rather slow bow, alright traits and …..traps……. yeah.
Nerco’s get a monster spec (quite literally actually), but the core is pretty lackluster when it comes to group content,… shouts are sort of meh too
and rangers get a rock ;P

Thieves have a 3rd dodge bar as a class mechanic change, (IMO that’s pretty good, if anything it could use some additional endurance regen at the most)
An alright staff that just needs the damage numbers and clunkiness sorta out (need to wait until bw3 to see of the changes made already are good enough).
For the most part, some really good utility skills, and if timed right, an instant kill elite skill
And right now (well with the coming updates) IMHO all 3 dodge GMs feel powerful enough to be GM.

I’m more worried about our core spec’s, like acro, I think that needs more attention then a different way that the DD spec is being presented compared to other classes.
Being different is not a bad thing.

Bllade.1029:

The overall idea here is that DD GM traits only effect them when they dodge. In that 1 second channel time you get the benefit of a GM trait.

What do you get when you’re not dodging from your GM traits? Nothing.

So for you math people out there before enhanced regeneration (Vigor, passive traits..etc.) You get three seconds total to benefit from the “strongest” traits in your specialization, before they go on cool down and you regenerate enough endurance to benefit from them again.

Is that what you want your GM traits to be? Cooldowns?

Or we can very easily remove the Dodges from the GM line and create three new GM traits that would benefit you’re entire style of play; whether you were dodging or not. That is what a GM trait should be and has been until now.

By your logic, a LOT of GM traits are terrible, considering a majority of them only affect a single thing.

For example: Executioner: What do you get when your opponent isn’t below 50%? Nothing.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation: What do you get when you’re not in stealth? Nothing.

Even with other classes.

Evasive arcana follows this logic: What do you get when you’re not dodging? Nothing.

And yet, people still run these traits. Why? Because even though it only affects one thing, it still helps turn the fight in your favor. Just because a GM trait only affects something so short as a dodge doesn’t mean they’re bad.

Nike.2631:

It comes down to if you’re only “getting 1 more dodge per encounter”… you’re doing it wrong. How the heck are you positioning yourself so badly you need 3 dodges every 10 second (because by Grenth if you aren’t rocking Sigils of Energy on a dodge-monger….) and how can you possibly be doing any decent DPS with more than 20% of your time locked up in dodge-state?

Quit playing jackrabbit and position properly! There’s no PvE content in the game that should be taxing your dodges that hard and if its a player up in your grill like that POP SOME STEALTH. Nobody needs a dodge every 3.333 seconds like a metronome ticking and that means you are going to get times when you’re recharging your endurance pool above 100 which nobody else can do. Bamm! Every time that happens you are getting more than one extra dodge per encounter.

DD isn’t about stealth though so I think that is a moot point. In fact, the entire theme fo DD is to be diving around in combat (like a jackrabbit). Now, I’m not proposing we be reckless, but we should be rewarded for playing aggressively, which means being in the fight. If our elite mechanic is going to be around this extra dodge, then I think we need to be able to use it a lot more often than we’re currently able to.

Nike.2631:

It comes down to if you’re only “getting 1 more dodge per encounter”… you’re doing it wrong. How the heck are you positioning yourself so badly you need 3 dodges every 10 second (because by Grenth if you aren’t rocking Sigils of Energy on a dodge-monger….) and how can you possibly be doing any decent DPS with more than 20% of your time locked up in dodge-state?

Quit playing jackrabbit and position properly! There’s no PvE content in the game that should be taxing your dodges that hard and if its a player up in your grill like that POP SOME STEALTH. Nobody needs a dodge every 3.333 seconds like a metronome ticking and that means you are going to get times when you’re recharging your endurance pool above 100 which nobody else can do. Bamm! Every time that happens you are getting more than one extra dodge per encounter.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The extra window of opportunity doesn’t equate to what other professions are getting with the Elite spec.

The people whose decision matters don’t agree. I’m not that interested in fuzzy comparisons to other profession that work nothing like thief. I’m looking at how to leverage what we’re being given to maximum effect. Clearly there’s some skill cap at work, because there are going to be people who play Daredevils badly, and people that are going to be beasts.

First, leveraging that sigil to maximum effect is counter to the thief design based on the shared resources between the weapon swaps. It’s not like warrior warrior that can blow all of their skills, swap sets and be effective. Or we can look at kits on engineer gaining the full benefit from the sigil too by equipping a kit, then swapping right back to be able to maximize potential.

Second of all, how do you know they don’t agree? The whole point of this thread is to give feedback. Our (as in mine and at least Sir Vincent’s) feedback is that 1 extra dodge and the apparent added flexibility of 1 sigil is underwhelming and needs to be improved.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Amante.8109:

How many other elite specializations trade a whole tier of trait choices for their elite mechanic, exactly? Oh right… zero.

Or are you going to insist with a straight face that it’s an extra dodge-bar pip?

Believe it or not, the extra dodge roll is the mechanic here. The GM traits all interact with that extra mechanic. Some people keep saying “Does Reaper need a GM trait to enter RS?” and the answer is obviously not, but a number of its traits interact with RS just like how a number of the DD traits interact with dodging. I realize that a dodging elite specialization may be hard to grasp, but that’s what it is.

Maugetarr.6823:

Im going to agree with you here partially. I think bound could use some strengthening (mechanically, not a numbers boost, but rather a way to make it hit better), but other than that, they are GM’s made to augment out spec boost. I’m only partially agreeing because 1 more dodge is pretty weak mechanically for an elite spec. If they rolled the healing into the condi removal trait and added a trait to improve endurance regen and not just capacity, the whole spec would fill out better. (PS: good condi removal when traiting for it should be part of core thief and not necessary on elite spec).

As an explanation as to why I think the extra dodge alone is weak: it’s equal to half of the endurance gained by using signet of agility or hard to catch proccing. Adding an endurance regen that stacked with vigor would be more useful. Simply scaling base endurance regen with the max size would be best I think, so our base regen when taking DrD would be 7.5.

It’s similar to increasing your Vitality. Increasing your Vitality increases your overall bulk, but really all it does is just give you more frontloaded health with which you can take initial hits. If you can never get back to full HP during a fight, it really doesn’t help you much throughout the fight. However, when you gain increased Vitality, you still see it as a good thing that is helping you out a lot. Much like that, Daredevil works by increasing your endurance by a full 50, and while it doesn’t change how much you gain over time, it enables you to do things that you couldn’t before. Like what, you may ask? Have you ever had to double dodge in order to evade a particularly nasty and persistent group of enemies? Now you can dodge once more after you do that. That’s actually really strong. It means in PvP that people don’t get a free burst on you, and in PvE it means that you’ve got one extra chance to evade an attack that might otherwise down you.

It may not be immediately obvious how awesome this is, but truly it is awesome. The value of this is compounded if you’re using a Staff with Staff Master as well, because that enables you to regenerate endurance at a truly astonishing rate. You even gain an extra 50 endurance back when you steal with Daredevil. All things considered, it’s fairly easy to get back to 150 endurance in the middle of a fight and then have three full dodges with which to avoid incoming attacks.

While I understand what you’re getting at, by the exact same argument, you could double doge and then use SoA to gain 2 more dodges in a row. If we use the trait too (because you bring up staff training) that 100 more endurance over a 24 second period resulting in an equivalent of 4.16 per second. Or, alternatively, we could divide it up into 1 extra dodge and an equivalent extra endurance regen of about 2.08 per second making it directly comparable to the line. The regen of staff is 2 per second with this trait since it’s based off initiative. My overall point is that its underwhelming because it’s not really enhancing anything (or really even more advantageous to take over CS). IMO it’s underwhelming. Adding increased regen would put it on par with the other profession elite spec mechanics that we’ve seen.

If you really think an extra dodge every now and then is equivalent to…

• Warrior: the ability to go berserk, gaining 15s of +10% attack speed, a one-stock adrenaline bar that counts as three, and access to upgraded “primal” burst skills

• Guardian: upgraded virtues that do more powerful things, including a leaping AoE heal and a ranged root that hits multiple targets

• Revenant: the ability to pulse +50% Boon duration around you for as long as you want, with the option to put it on CD to give out Fury, Might, Regen, Protection, and Swiftness

• Engineer: the ability to stomp or resurrect from 750 units away while doing other things

• Necromancer: an upgraded Death Shroud called “Reaper Shroud” that grants access to new and powerful abilities

• Elementalist: the ability to “overload” attunements after staying in them long enough, granting powerful effects to yourself and those around you

• Mesmer: a powerful new shatter skill that literally lets them rewind time

…then I have some swampland I’d love to sell you

Add in Daredevil’s GM dodges and the gap begins to close… but as many of you are so eager to point out, those are well-balanced GM traits, not the elite mechanic (that’s the extra dodge pip and nothing but), so by your own logic the comparison doesn’t seem fair.

Nike.2631:

It comes down to if you’re only “getting 1 more dodge per encounter”… you’re doing it wrong. How the heck are you positioning yourself so badly you need 3 dodges every 10 second (because by Grenth if you aren’t rocking Sigils of Energy on a dodge-monger….) and how can you possibly be doing any decent DPS with more than 20% of your time locked up in dodge-state?

Are you forgetting that the GM traits have effects that triggers on dodge?

So no, it’s not about positioning, it is putting the GM traits to good use as part of your playstyle. The DD GM made dodge more than just for dodging attacks.

Quit playing jackrabbit and position properly! There’s no PvE content in the game that should be taxing your dodges that hard and if its a player up in your grill like that POP SOME STEALTH. Nobody needs a dodge every 3.333 seconds like a metronome ticking and that means you are going to get times when you’re recharging your endurance pool above 100 which nobody else can do. Bamm! Every time that happens you are getting more than one extra dodge per encounter.

You’re so wrong that I won’t even attempt to explain it when the explanation that proves you wrong has already been previously posted.

The people whose decision matters don’t agree. I’m not that interested in fuzzy comparisons to other profession that work nothing like thief. I’m looking at how to leverage what we’re being given to maximum effect. Clearly there’s some skill cap at work, because there are going to be people who play Daredevils badly, and people that are going to be beasts.

How can you leverage something when you are being pigeon holed?

Many of the suggestions are to break the pigeon-holing and give the Thief proper choices.

Maugetarr.6823:

Second of all, how do you know they don’t agree? The whole point of this thread is to give feedback. Our (as in mine and at least Sir Vincent’s) feedback is that 1 extra dodge and the apparent added flexibility of 1 sigil is underwhelming and needs to be improved.

That’s easy: because we haven’ been invited in at the brainstorming stage or even the white-board stage. E-specs are only being exposed to public scrutiny after their core premise has been agreed upon and mulled over internally for a very long time. Some things at the philosophical level rather than the numbers tuning level were decided and set in at mostly cured clay if not stone before we were ever involved. And that’s not meant as “so don’t share your comments” because I think you’ve provided a needed service in forcing them to consider their decisions… but that consideration doesn’t mean they’ve opted to change those decisions.

That and you can watch them right now, today making the GM traits more effective – and every time that happens that’s a solid step directly AWAY from making those effects a selectable pack-in just for plopping the Trait line in slot 3. If they were weakening them, I’d totally agree they’re moving towards making them a free component of the line.

Think of it as Developer body language. The changes say a lot about the direction of their thinking above and beyond the details of the change itself.

Nike.2631:

Maugetarr.6823:

Second of all, how do you know they don’t agree? The whole point of this thread is to give feedback. Our (as in mine and at least Sir Vincent’s) feedback is that 1 extra dodge and the apparent added flexibility of 1 sigil is underwhelming and needs to be improved.

That’s easy: because we haven’ been invited in at the brainstorming stage or even the white-board stage. E-specs are only being exposed to public scrutiny after their core premise has been agreed upon and mulled over internally for a very long time. Some things at the philosophical level rather than the numbers tuning level were decided and set in at mostly cured clay if not stone before we were ever involved. And that’s not meant as “so don’t share your comments” because I think you’ve provided a needed service in forcing them to consider their decisions… but that consideration doesn’t mean they’ve opted to change those decisions.

The point of the feedback is to make them realize something they have not foreseen or talked about — for example, the disparity in the augmentation brought by the Elite specs.

If they choose not to change those decisions, then the player based will simply not provide feedback.

It is implied that when giving a feedback is that they are considering making changes, else what’s the point of this discussion?

Amante.8109:

If you really think an extra dodge every now and then is equivalent to…

Ah yes, the grass is always green in my frightened mind.

• Warrior: the ability to go berserk, gaining 15s of +10% attack speed, a one-stock adrenaline bar that counts as three, and access to upgraded “primal” burst skills

Have you read their boards? Some of the best warrior number crunchers in the game are seriously unimpressed and lobbying for changes.

• Guardian: upgraded virtues that do more powerful things, including a leaping AoE heal and a ranged root that hits multiple targets

Where not a single day has gone by without someone screaming “omaygerd! casting times! YUhateUs?”

• Revenant: the ability to pulse +50% Boon duration around you for as long as you want, with the option to put it on CD to give out Fury, Might, Regen, Protection, and Swiftness

Brought to you by the Dev who sheltered his pet class from the righteous thrashing with the nerfbat it so desperately needed for almost 2 years. Now on to his next goldenchild…

• Engineer: the ability to stomp or resurrect from 750 units away while doing other things

OK, you clearly don’t get out much if you think that Engineers are excited about getting spirit weapons as their class mechanic…

• Necromancer: an upgraded Death Shroud called “Reaper Shroud” that grants access to new and powerful abilities

Cool as hell looking. Still isn’t getting them off the bench with the Rangers.

• Elementalist: the ability to “overload” attunements after staying in them long enough, granting powerful effects to yourself and those around you

Right. Eles are thrilled with the “lets cripple ourselves by not being able to change attunements gag-gift mechanic”. This one might be workable now that it’s a stun break but they aren’t throwing parties for it over there…

• Mesmer: a powerful new shatter skill that literally lets them rewind time

I’ll give you the Mezzies got a sweet deal. 2 out of 8 well received class mechanics vs. Thief and probably the most coherent trait line in the game. Outstanding.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

else what’s the point of this discussion?

Clearly to laugh at our plights.

Edit: /s

Nike.2631:

Maugetarr.6823:

Second of all, how do you know they don’t agree? The whole point of this thread is to give feedback. Our (as in mine and at least Sir Vincent’s) feedback is that 1 extra dodge and the apparent added flexibility of 1 sigil is underwhelming and needs to be improved.

That’s easy: because we haven’ been invited in at the brainstorming stage or even the white-board stage. E-specs are only being exposed to public scrutiny after their core premise has been agreed upon and mulled over internally for a very long time. Some things at the philosophical level rather than the numbers tuning level were decided and set in at mostly cured clay if not stone before we were ever involved. And that’s not meant as “so don’t share your comments” because I think you’ve provided a needed service in forcing them to consider their decisions… but that consideration doesn’t mean they’ve opted to change those decisions.

That and you can watch them right now, today making the GM traits more effective – and every time that happens that’s a solid step directly AWAY from making those effects a selectable pack-in just for plopping the Trait line in slot 3. If they were weakening them, I’d totally agree they’re moving towards making them a free component of the line.

Think of it as Developer body language. The changes say a lot about the direction of their thinking above and beyond the details of the change itself.

Except that doesn’t preclude changing the line spec at all. Revenant saw some significant buffs to the core after the BWE feedback, and now we have been asked to participate in the same type of feedback for DrD. Because they are improving the GM traits doesn’t preclude changing the core either. Fixing the dodge traits first though was top priority because it limits the real feedback on survivability and usefulness when we can’t use them as intended.

Prioritizing fixes in the timeframe isn’t mutually exclusive with the other fixes and buffs. Alternatively, I could say they’re looking at improving a wide variety of things because both weapon skill mechanics and numbers as well as traits are being improved.

People have issues with some of the elite mechanics. This is not news, and it’s also missing the point. The point is that all of those mechanics are things that feel meaty enough to be elite mechanics. There are some potentially useful bits about having a third dodge bar, but it’s not a big or exciting enough addition compared to the rest (nor does it in any way interact with the core Thief mechanic of Stealth, but that ship has sailed). Add the Dodges in baseline and suddenly you have something equivalent to the rest, imagine that!

I swear… some of the people in this thread must be applying for forum mod. Arguing in favor of the status quo for no reason whatsoever. At least half of the other professions are getting meaningful hands on attention and improvements as a result of that, but let’s not ask for that as Thieves because that would be… bad somehow?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If they choose not to change those decisions, then the player based will simply not provide feedback.

You’re proposing that they’re supposed to agree with and execute EVERY suggestion thrown their way. That in fact the generally entirely self-centered and oblivious to the advantages of balance sainted player base always knows better than the people hired to provide that balance. You know that’s not how it works right? And strangely, most people continue to play and continue to offer commentary even when their brilliant proposal didn’t happen.

It is implied that when giving a feedback is that they are considering making changes, else what’s the point of this discussion?

Considering alternatives is not deciding to go with those alternatives. And not going with your alternative doesn’t mean it wasn’t considered.

I pitch concepts all the time. I’m bloody ecstatic when one actually gets accepted because no matter how much I may be certain they’re all amazing bestest ideas ev-ar, the guys that make the call only agree once in a while for reasons that are often completely invisible from this side of the fence, like difficulty to implement in code and these pesky things armchair designers need never fret over called DEADLINES.

Amante.8109:

Rising Dusk.2408:

I’m shocked that you’ve persisted so diligently in asserting that the Daredevil GMs aren’t “real”. They all have very real effects on dodge, and all augment dodge in a unique way that makes them very strong. I’m not sure what you genuinely expect to change in response to your complaints.

How many other elite specializations trade a whole tier of trait choices for their elite mechanic, exactly? Oh right… zero.

Or are you going to insist with a straight face that it’s an extra dodge-bar pip?

No, amante is right, if you haven’t noticed. All the thief gets for its elite unlock is 1 dodge bar.. Now compare a dodge bar to berzerk form, chrono shift, or the strong kitten new dragon hunter virtues and it looks like a joke. So your telling me it’s fair that every other class gets their elite mechanic baked into the elite minor but a thief gets one measly dodge (that becomes useless after the start of combat) and then has to waste a grandmaster trait to unlock 1! Of our profession mechanics?? Please think on this before replying with somthing stupid like “that dodge bar is HUGE” because no.. Truth is it’s not against the insane array of crazy kitten comming To every other class that we have to fight against in the expansion.

Nike.2631:

blah blah blah

I suppose you would like to argue in favor of developer silence, as well? Because ultimately, you are just a random poster on the forum, not an employee of ArenaNet. If Karl wants to tell us that what we are asking for is unrealistic before release/ever, he is welcome to speak up at any time. Some of us would certainly appreciate the honesty.

Until then, I and others will continue bringing up our serious concerns in the feedback thread, because that’s what it’s for.

@Nike

So…I’m not really sure what you’re trying to accomplish with your argument. Are you suggesting that Daredevil is strong enough as it is, or do you acknowledge that, in its present state, it isn’t strong enough.

As I’m sure you’re aware, if you think the former, then no one here will take you seriously. Otherwise, tell us how you would improve the Daredevil spec if not by making the core mechanic stand out more.

Nike.2631:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If they choose not to change those decisions, then the player based will simply not provide feedback.

You’re proposing that they’re supposed to agree with and execute EVERY suggestion thrown their way. That in fact the generally entirely self-centered and oblivious to the advantages of balance sainted player base always knows better than the people hired to provide that balance. You know that’s not how it works right? And strangely, most people continue to play and continue to offer commentary even when their brilliant proposal didn’t happen.

Nobody is advocating that EVERY suggestion needs to be implemented. That’s just a gross generalization and not the representation of what’s being discussed here.

Feedback and suggestions are just that, it’s not an edict.

Considering alternatives is not deciding to go with those alternatives. And not going with your alternative doesn’t mean it wasn’t considered.

Then they have to provide their own solution to the issue. Leaving it as-is is what’s not acceptable since there are issues that needs to be addressed.

I pitch concepts all the time. I’m bloody ecstatic when one actually gets accepted because no matter how much I may be certain they’re all amazing bestest ideas ev-ar, the guys that make the call only agree once in a while for reasons that are often completely invisible from this side of the fence, like difficulty to implement in code and these pesky things armchair designers need never fret over called DEADLINES.

This is part of the frustration on our end. While they know for a fact that they have time and financial constraints, they still decide to make a ridiculous amount of changes that over time has been overwhelming them.

Part of the feedback is to simply tackle the Core traits instead of adding a whole new trait to the mix to balance and tweak.

They really didn’t have to add the Elite specs and simply charge $30 for the expansion. But since they are set to charge a minimum of $50 for the expac, they need to give me more than just an extra dodge to my main profession.

If I don’t like my character post-HoT, I wouldn’t be enjoying the rest of the expansion because I would be frustrated while playing it — so why would I even buy the expansion if I wouldn’t enjoy it.

Thus the player/dev communication is necessary in the form of a feedback.

Do you see now how it works?

Amante.8109:

I suppose you would like to argue in favor of developer silence, as well?

Gee… that seems… completely unrelated? But to answer your question, go read the redname posts on the pvp forum for today. I love chatting with the Devs and am pretty good about engaging them in active conversation.

Because ultimately, you are just a random poster on the forum, not an employee of ArenaNet. If Karl wants to tell us that what we are asking for is unrealistic before release/ever, he is welcome to speak up at any time. Some of us would certainly appreciate the honesty.

Maybe he will . Or maybe continuing to work on and strengthen the GMs in the existing framework says it all.

Until then, I and others will continue bringing up our serious concerns in the feedback thread, because that’s what it’s for.

Carry on. Really, since I’m only a ‘random poster’ you probably shouldn’t put that much stock in me suggesting “whoa, blatant power grab and a coding/deadline nightmare, not happening” or that I’m somehow poisoning the Devs against an amazing idea. I mean, what do I know?

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

@Nike

So…I’m not really sure what you’re trying to accomplish with your argument. Are you suggesting that Daredevil is strong enough as it is, or do you acknowledge that, in its present state, it isn’t strong enough.

As I’m sure you’re aware, if you think the former, then no one here will take you seriously. Otherwise, tell us how you would improve the Daredevil spec if not by making the core mechanic stand out more.

I think the Daredevil has room to get stronger (and maybe even should) but that if we get those gains its gonna be inside the existing framework and not come by granting all three current GMs as a toggle that can be changed mid-match AND forcing them to come up with three more GW-magnitude traits, code them, and test them before a very real, very public deadline of Oct 23.

Nike.2631:

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

@Nike

So…I’m not really sure what you’re trying to accomplish with your argument. Are you suggesting that Daredevil is strong enough as it is, or do you acknowledge that, in its present state, it isn’t strong enough.

As I’m sure you’re aware, if you think the former, then no one here will take you seriously. Otherwise, tell us how you would improve the Daredevil spec if not by making the core mechanic stand out more.

I think the Daredevil has room to get stronger (and maybe even should) but that if we get those gains its gonna be inside the existing framework and not come by granting all three current GMs as a toggle that can be changed mid-match AND forcing them to come up with three more GW-magnitude traits, code them, and test them before a very real, very public deadline of Oct 23.

I agree with you on this part. That’s why I think a rate increase would fit thematically and help utilize the new traits better.

Edit: Even if they scaled endurance regen up to 7.5 per second within the traitline, including endless stamina on vigor it would still be few dodges in a timeframe than the old FG + Vigor.

Nike.2631:

I think the Daredevil has room to get stronger (and maybe even should) but that if we get those gains its gonna be inside the existing framework and not come by granting all three current GMs as a toggle that can be changed mid-match AND forcing them to come up with three more GW-magnitude traits, code them, and test them before a very real, very public deadline of Oct 23.

Between insinuating that people are demanding 100% of their suggestions be implemented to attaching the unrealistic idea of switching dodges mid-combat to the unrelated discussion about GM traits, strawmans seem to be your bread and butter. Guess I’ll just stop responding to your posts and spend my time on the reasonable ones.

Nike.2631:

I think the Daredevil has room to get stronger (and maybe even should) but that if we get those gains its gonna be inside the existing framework and not come by granting all three current GMs as a toggle that can be changed mid-match AND forcing them to come up with three more GW-magnitude traits, code them, and test them before a very real, very public deadline of Oct 23.

I think this is pretty reasonable. I just wish that you could’ve gotten this across without all of the condescension and self-righteousness…at least that was the tone I was getting from your posts. It would have led to much more meaningful discussion than yelling at each other about what the devs do or whatever.

On a different note…what if full speed omni-directional movement was also added to the DD’s repertoire? Maybe it’s a bit gimmicky, but it would let us feel pretty mobile…also it will help ranged playstyles by being able to strafe better.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

On a different note…what if full speed omni-directional movement was also added to the DD’s repertoire? Maybe it’s a bit gimmicky, but it would let us feel pretty mobile…also it will help ranged playstyles by being able to strafe better.

Would gaining a couple seconds of super-speed for doing X, scratch that itch?

Like maybe~ “You gain 2 seconds of super-speed upon a successful evade.” ? (just going with a trigger we already see in the Daredevil trait line)

Swiftness on evade might also be workable (and probably have a longer duration).

Edit: No, wait, sorry. That would be redundant. Dash is giving that more or less and it work whether someone is attacking you or not. Super-speed on Steal maybe?

It always leaves me dumbfounded when we have people coming to troll people on the feedback forums for leaving feedback non the less. As always opinions are like kitten holes and everyone has one. I have no problems with debating ups and downs of people’s opinions but I will say the last two pages seems like someone is competing in the Special Olympics. Lets try to get back to some constructive feedback before the Devs decide to leave the Thief forums forever.

So far there have been several concerns brought to light and here is a quick recap:

making edits as they come in

1) Are DD dodges really worth waiting to use as a GM trait and loosing GM traits over there main mechanic? We have on one side wherea part of the community feels they will be better utilized as an un-GMed UI select option (F3-5) with a CD when switching while leaving opportunity for new GMs to further benefit there dodges.
Edit: We have a group that sees it beneficial to have the dodges selectable outside of combat with a similar UI setup to the Revenent’s Legends.
Than we have the other part who believes the dodges are strong enough as they are to be considered GMs but need additional work to solidify there functions as being competitive with the rest of the expansion.

In the DD’s current development I lean more toward the first group. However I will say I have no problem with accepting them as GM traits if they are proven competitive enough to challenge other Elite Specializations. I believe Dash is heading in the right direction but the other dodges still need some work.

2) 1 additional dodge is lame for a new mechanic in comparison to other Elite Specials. On one side we have people who believe it only gives us an advantage at the start of battle but will not be beneficial once used since the endurance regen will not fill it up fast enough. On the other hand we have a group that believes there will be plenty of regen and it will work out great. Edit: One good point is the regen should scale to the pool’s max amount. If we have a normal 5 endurance gain per second it should be increased to 7.5 to accommodate the 1.5x increase in pool size. This is no different than health regen.

I personally don’t think the regen is going to be a problem for most as DD has many endurance traits built in to recover the lost pool. However I do believe this might pigeon hole people from creating there own play styles. If you choose not to use staves, take the staff mastery, use BT and physical skills than you might have a bad time. S/P, P/P users will not have as much access to the endurance regens. SB doesn’t matter as much.

Do I believe the 1 additional dodge is worth the DD’s main core trait? Yes and No. In it’s current state I would say no but this is only because of #1 above. If the dodges are strong enough then yes it would warrant it. However I think we need to fix #1 first.

3) Dash distance will make SR frustrating and create additional disconnects. Karl himself has acknowledged that using Dash in SR is doable but will be rather tricky. I myself feel a slight increase of 50 distance added onto SR’s radius would help with this and not break the game play. I am more worried about the potential disconnects damage loss with going 150 further away from the target than a traditional dodge. Dash has Swiftness added and the duration has been upped from 8-10 seconds. I personally think a boost from 33% to 50% movement speed on a shorter duration 3-4 seconds would assist with closing this gap. However we will have to wait till the next BWE to figure out if the disconnect is hampering damage output.

As for those that say “Just don’t use Dash” this is the best preferred dodge at this time with it’s condition removal and does not cause you to loose stealth when activated. And yes some of us would still like to use stealth.

4) DD is great and all but it will suffer the same fate as the rest of the thief traits if the core thief is not re-balanced. I don’t think anyone would agree to say that prior to HoT Thieves are in the perfect spot. IMO DD will not save Thieves in it’s current state. It will help “band-aid” it a little however you put a cast on a broken arm it is still a broken arm. Thief does need some re-work in the departments of SA and Acro. I don’t agree that everything is peachy with CS,DA and Trickery but these are pretty solid for the time being and are not the cause of thief’s low durability issue. If we had some acknowledgement that after HoT is up and running these will be re-balanced, most of us would be at peace with this for the time being. But just like everything else with rogues, silence is deadly.

5) Reveal Mechanics: More and more of these are being introduced into the game. Because of this SA is more and more inadvertently getting nerfed. Every time a thief is revealed from stealth we take a potential hard loss in these areas depending on how we were speced: 25% damage mitigation, health regen, initiative regen, condition removal, crit increase, Back stab damage, surprise attacking and fleeing.

Some solutions have been mentioned as to 1) making Reveal a spot based skill giving visual of the target but not making them loose buffs till stealth is over. 2)Giving Thieves a defense once reveled (trait coded) such as smoke bomb, flash bomb (2 second aoe Daze) increase moment speed, etc. IMO Thieves should have some sort of defensive counter to reveal as they are mostly utility and the only case that gets hit this kitten reveal.

6) The current state of Thieves will lock people into always choosing DD and kill diversity. I will have to agree with this fully. I have already chosen myself to take DD over the other two as it would only hurt you if you don’t. SA has lost its best condition removal in the last patch. Reveals just kill most of SA’s passive traits. Acro was nerfed to make way for DD. If #4 was corrected this would not be an issue and open more options to play . However IMO SA and Acro in there current state will become only usable for Staff wielding dodge tank builds.

7) Staff animations, dash animation and physic skill animations are still a high concern. Karl has already mentioned that dodge animations are being worked and will be changed soon. Staff animations will be side lined for now but other skill animations are being worked over.

Now for the Positive: Most will agree Dash is heading in the right direction and the other dodges can be worked out before HoT release.

With Karl’s update to Physical skills slated for next BWE, most would say these are getting better. The dmg increase to Fist Furry and the changes to Distracting Daggers is welcomed. A slight dmg increase to Impact Strike and/or unblock able is something some are interested in seeing. Also the staff skill buffs many are looking forward to.

A nice summary. Thank you .

My time on a thief has mostly been spent playing variants of the Super Unicorn, so I don’t spend a lot of time in stealth (mostly off of the occasional Dagger #5). I follow the concern that the revised Dash is not a sound choice for stealthy in-fighters and the other two both do damage.

…Should they?

Could we be better served by~

• a high mobility option (new Dash)
• a GM-Dodge variant that is specifically tuned for the stealthy in-fighter — a VERY common configuration for thieves
• one and only one GW-Dodge variant that does damage/breaks stealth

You’re a stealthy in-fighter. Put Dash aside for a moment. What’s your DREAM DODGE? Short distance seems preferred (but still enough to escape most ground decals)…

…How about a dodge that cleanses your revealed state allowing you to go into stealth sooner?

Stabbity! → Dodge → Vanish…

Driften.8716:

1) Are DD dodges really worth waiting to use as a GM trait and loosing GM traits over there main mechanic? We have on one side where half the community feels they will be better utilized as an un-GMed UI select option (F3-5) with a CD when switching while leaving opportunity for new GMs to further benefit there dodges. Than we have the other half who believes the dodges are strong enough as they are to be considered GMs but need additional work to solidify there functions as being competitive with the rest of the expansion.

It bears mentioning that only a very small minority is really lobbying to make the dodges separate buttons on F3-F5 that are usable in combat. The rest of us would be fine with a simple Revenant Legend style drop-down box that is locked while in combat/an active SPvP match. This is an important point of distinction, as people keep bringing up the in combat thing as a strawman to dismiss the whole idea.

Driften.8716:

2) 1 additional dodge is lame for a new mechanic in comparision to other Elite Specials. On one side we have people who believe it only gives us an advantage at the start of battle but will not be beneficial once used since the endurance regen will not fill it up fast enough. On the other hand we have a group that believes there will be plenty of regen and it will work out great.

If we’re being asked to accept the boosted dodge bar as Daredevil’s “elite mechanic”, it needs to do a lot more than it currently does. Others have mentioned that having 150% of normal endurance should scale base endurance regen accordingly, and I agree. There is also major inconsistency in terms of what Endurance-restoring effects do for the Daredevil. At best, one or two restore the amount you would think they should.

If a bigger Endurance bar is truly our “thing”—meant to rival berserking and turning back time—then we need to be able to use it to full effect. The changes mentioned above would further differentiate what currently feels like a mechanic hastily slapped-on.

Driften.8716:

As for those that say “Just don’t use Dash” this is the best preferred dodge at this time with it’s condition removal and does not cause you to loose stealth when activated. And yes some of us would still like to use stealth.

Indeed. To reiterate, if we are being asked to accept the dodges as our real GM traits, then they need to be the best possible dodges they can be. Right now, all three dodges have problems interacting with Shadow Refuge, which is one of the few powerful and iconic abilities Thief has, and not something they should be asked to go without. It remains to be seen how much Dash’s tweaking will hinder SR in practice, but Lotus should definitely have its direct damage removed to help.

The rest is straightforward stuff I generally agree with. Good summary!

Wait a minute… I’ve seen something that startled me in this topic.
during the beta, I haven’t played DD a lot… just enough to see the animation problems and the clunkiness.

But is it true that our endurance regeneration speed doesn’t change ? That it recharges at the same speed as if we only had 2 bars ?

Endurance regeneration should be based on a percentage per second, not a static number per second. What use is there of this extra bar then ? So our spec’s mechanism is one SINGLE extra dodge at the beginning of a fight ? What ?

I hope it’s not supposed to be that way and it was a bug.

Amante.8109:

It bears mentioning that only a very small minority is really lobbying to make the dodges separate buttons on F3-F5 that are usable in combat. The rest of us would be fine with a simple Revenant Legend style drop-down box that is locked while in combat/an active SPvP match. This is an important point of distinction, as people keep bringing up the in-combat thing as a strawman to dismiss the whole idea.

As at least one of the “people” being mentioned I want to apologize. I’m sure at some point I did mis-speak and give the impression that I was concerned with mid-combat swapping. I know that was not what was being proposed. What we have now can be swapped outside of combat (clunky, but doable). My objection was to the power creep of being able to swap dodges mid-match, when trait choices are normally locked in.

Indeed. To reiterate, if we are being asked to accept the dodges as GMs, then they need to be the best possible dodges they can be. Right now, all three dodges have problems interacting with Shadow Refuge, which is one of the few powerful and iconic abilities Thief has, and not something they should be asked to go without. It remains to be seen how much Dash’s tweaking will make SR to use in practice, but Lotus should definitely have its direct damage removed to help.

Woo-hoo! Consensus! (Though I’d rather rebuild Bound rather than Lotus, but that’s mostly because I like the theme of throwing knives more than making a crater when I land .)

Ok, some daydreaming…

Major Grandmaster Traits

• Flitting Shadows — Your dodge ability now either removes ‘Revealed’ or places you in stealth for 2 seconds.
• Lotus Training — Your dodge ability now uses Impaling Lotus, firing daggers at nearby enemies.
• Unhindered Combatant —Your dodge ability is replaced by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness when you dodge.

The dodges are obviously the elite spec mechanic. When Anet advertises the other elite specs, they mention the baseline abilities, when they advertise the Daredevil they mention our grandmaster choices.

Daredevil is about the three dodges. The whole elite spec is balanced around those dodges. Therefor, unlike the other elite specs we’re losing out on quite a bit by making them traits instead of the rev legend style box.

I’m attaching the images again because people seem genuinely confused on what the issue here is. We’re not asking for the ability to swap dodges in combat – we’re asking for the dodges to be baseline in the elite specs first minor trait like every other elite spec and to be given a real set of grandmaster choices.