Guild Wars 2

Nike.2631:

Questions:

• Does Signet of Agility’s active give 100 or 150 endurance to Daredevils?

• Does Superior Sigil of Energy’s on-swap effect give 50 or 75 endurance to Daredevils?

100 and 50 respectively when I tried them in BWE2. To reiterate what I said above:

Amante.8109:

If we’re being asked to accept the boosted dodge bar as Daredevil’s “elite mechanic”, it needs to do a lot more than it currently does. Others have mentioned that having 150% of normal endurance should scale base endurance regen accordingly, and I agree. There is also major inconsistency in terms of what Endurance-restoring effects do for the Daredevil. At best, one or two restore the amount you would think they should.

If a bigger Endurance bar is truly our “thing”—meant to rival berserking and turning back time—then we need to be able to use it to full effect. The changes mentioned above would further differentiate what currently feels like a mechanic hastily slapped-on.

Get on it, Karl. The clock is ticking, and so is people’s patience.

I like this idea that endurance regen should scale, or at the very least outside sources of endurance should scale as a percent.

Like, we get an okay amount of endurance from the DD line, but given how reliant that line is on the custom dodges (and as long as they fix the animation lag and other bugs the dodges are great) it seems odd that all our sustain comes from evades which we may or may not be able to use, and which are conditionally dependant on enemy action rather than our own.

Like, why is so much of DD “if your opponent does X and you successfuly counter it, you get Y” when everyone else gets “you press button X and you get Y”

Can’t we get buffs and effects for just doing a thing, and let the counters pay out the inherent reward of, you know, actually just being counters? I mean that’s how everyone else works.

If the point of the line is to make available much more durable thieves, we either need even more endurance, or some form of passive defense (base HP, toughness, or some kind of baseline life on hit) to make that a reality.

One small request as a Thief main (with above 2.3k hours on the class)

I would love to see the in-combat running animation changed.

It’s like we’re running with a Hammer.

Would be nice to see us run with the staff holding behind us with 1 hand!

Ok, I’m gonna make a Marvel Comics joke, but I’m not entirely kidding. As part of the Adept minor trait~

• The Daredevil is immune to Fear.

…Because standing there when one of the Dragon champions drops their multi-fears and looking on as everyone runs off and saying to yourself “What? It’s just a dragon…” would be PERFECT for the Daredevil .

Outright immunity to fear would be pretty neat. Depending on how powerful Reaper becomes in the meta we could be a hard counter.

Nike.2631:

Ok, I’m gonna make a Marvel Comics joke, but I’m not entirely kidding. As part of the Adept minor trait~

• The Daredevil is immune to Fear.

…Because standing there when one of the Dragon champions drops their multi-fears and looking on as everyone runs off and saying to yourself “What? It’s just a dragon…” would be PERFECT for the Daredevil .

And then the dragon just gobbles you up because you dont have the survivability.

Nike.2631:

Ok, I’m gonna make a Marvel Comics joke, but I’m not entirely kidding. As part of the Adept minor trait~

• The Daredevil is immune to Fear.

…Because standing there when one of the Dragon champions drops their multi-fears and looking on as everyone runs off and saying to yourself “What? It’s just a dragon…” would be PERFECT for the Daredevil .

I know we’ve had our disagreements, but 100% I support this. My poor wife wondered why I started laughing at the computer for a good moment.

I support it out of humor more than anything lol. We would all be the man/woman without fear!

Shalien.9018:

I support it out of humor more than anything lol. We would all be the self-identified gender without fear!

Here’s something unique and interesting to add to Daredevil..

Stances.

Stance 1: F3 Ability: Defensive Stance: Way of the Mushin no shin ; In this stance DD would have access to abilities that would sacrifice damage out put for sustain and condition removal. Access to blocks and bonus endurance regeneration. Access to unique utilities.

Stance 2: F4 Ability: Offensive Stance: Way of the 1000 fists; this stance would give the DD access to high damage and control abilities along with an enhanced movement speed and initiative regeneration while sacrificing overall sustain and healing. Access to Unique utilities.

You could switch between the two during a fight depending on your needs.

Something like an adrenaline bar would be at the top of your endurance called your “Zen” bar. This would be filled the longer you were in combat based on damage you dealt. When the bar becomes full you can access this stance. Once you activate it, it decreases until it reaches zero or you cancel the stance.

Zen Stance: Gain the ability to see stealthed foes for the time this stance is active. Condition damage is reduced substantially and your abilities cost half of the initiative. Damage output is increased and gain access to unique and very powerful utilities.

I know i’m a dreamer, but let me dream. That and i’m desperate and I want to see DD succeed!

Amante.8109:

Nike.2631:

Questions:

• Does Signet of Agility’s active give 100 or 150 endurance to Daredevils?

• Does Superior Sigil of Energy’s on-swap effect give 50 or 75 endurance to Daredevils?

100 and 50 respectively when I tried them in BWE2.

That’s my recollection from testing the sigil also (forgot to check the signet).

So either the text of those needs to change or the numbers need to go up because they SAY RIGHT ON THEM that they should be delivering the higher numbers.

“Refills your Endurance” and “Gain 50% of your Endurance” are not ambiguous. That should be 150 and 75 . (…which should also help put an end to the ‘1 more dodge per encounter’ perception in a more tangible way…)

Shalien.9018:

I support it out of humor more than anything lol. We would all be the man/woman without fear!

In my head it was “Daredevil, the profession without fear” as I wrote it. :-p

Zero Day.2594:

And then the dragon just gobbles you up because you dont have the survivability.

Always with the negative waves… Its a beautiful tank.

Nike.2631:

Amante.8109:

Nike.2631:

Questions:

• Does Signet of Agility’s active give 100 or 150 endurance to Daredevils?

• Does Superior Sigil of Energy’s on-swap effect give 50 or 75 endurance to Daredevils?

100 and 50 respectively when I tried them in BWE2.

That’s my recollection from testing the sigil also (forgot to check the signet).

So either the text of those needs to change or the numbers need to go up because they SAY RIGHT ON THEM that they should be delivering the higher numbers.

“Refills your Endurance” and “Gain 50% of your Endurance” are not ambiguous. That should be 150 and 75 . (…which should also help put an end to the ‘1 more dodge per encounter’ perception in a more tangible way…)

It would help, but base regeneration should also go up, even so.
In those longer fights, that’ll be the difference between life and death.
Raid fights and world boss type content definitely will have this sort of thing going on.

Terrorsquad.4802:

One small request as a Thief main (with above 2.3k hours on the class)

I would love to see the in-combat running animation changed.
It’s like we’re running with a Hammer.
Would be nice to see us run with the staff holding behind us with 1 hand!

I am so with you on that. A couple of rounds of Suikoden and its staff wielding protagonists have left me trained that one-handed behind-the-back ready-pose is the definitive “I’m just chilling but I can bust your face at any time…” stance for staff.

Slowmelt.8547:

It would help, but base regeneration should also go up, even so.
In those longer fights, that’ll be the difference between life and death.
Raid fights and world boss type content definitely will have this sort of thing going on.

While I agree with you in spirit, in practice I just can’t imagine they’ll give us permanent, un-strippable Vigor and the possibility of Vigor beyond that… I mean looking at an existing trait of that sort: Natural Vigor is only a 20% gain and takes up the entirety of the Adept minor trait slot for its line.

Make no mistake: the Devs are (rightly) afraid of Vigor and its ilk. There was a massive game-wide nerfing of endurance boosting effects. Getting even 20% is gonna take a persuasive sell. It would be excellent to have something like Natural Vigor, I’m just not sure what we have to trade or where to cram it in?

Hmm… If Escapist’s Absolution was folded into Driven Fortitude (which is looking more and more reasonable these days) that would open up a Major slot. +25% endurance gain would look good in that tier scale-wise using Natural Vigor as a baseline, but Staff Master would also have to be tuned up slightly or it would be left in the dust by an always active partial Vigor.

Nike.2631:

While I agree with you in spirit, in practice I just can’t imagine they’ll give us permanent, un-strippable Vigor and the possibility of Vigor beyond that… I mean looking at an existing trait of that sort: Natural Vigor is only a 20% gain and takes up the entirety of the Adept minor trait slot for its line.

The whole point of that additional dodge is so that we can dodge more often. All we’re asking for is endurance recovery to be % based instead of hard number based.

Will we dodge more than other professions? Yes. That is the entire point of our elite spec. We should be dodging more than other professions.

Shalien.9018:

Nike.2631:

While I agree with you in spirit, in practice I just can’t imagine they’ll give us permanent, un-strippable Vigor and the possibility of Vigor beyond that… I mean looking at an existing trait of that sort: Natural Vigor is only a 20% gain and takes up the entirety of the Adept minor trait slot for its line.

The whole point of that additional dodge is so that we can dodge more often. All we’re asking for is endurance recovery to be % based instead of hard number based.

Will we dodge more than other professions? Yes. That is the entire point of our elite spec. We should be dodging more than other professions.

^ What he said.
If we’re going to get dodging as our mechanic, we should be able to do it well.
That’s not unreasonable!

Assuming Karl hasn’t walked of in disgust at the hissy fits thrown his way here for the last few days maybe that’s a good enough, earnest enough, reasonable enough cause to fold some measure of increased Endurance generation into the base functionality of the Daredevil.

But if he is paying close attention (and I dearly hope so) I want to come to the table showing we understand there are comparable traits out there, that we remember the design history of Vigor, and that we know turning that particular faucet even a little bit is going to go a LONG way towards getting this spec into fighting trim. He went for Stunbreak on Elemental Overload. Maybe we can appeal to that sense of whimsy again .

(…BUT… if we must make a trade to make it right, I want something in my hands ready to offer.)

Coronit.9432:

Well, we can´t know yet what they mean with “you can’t dodge it all”. Maybe just undodgable or you need more dodges. Thats still in the stars.
Thanks for summarize that stuff, but what lacks there is a view over synergy. You can´t have everything.

It isn’t about having everything. It is more about the fact that Daredevils have so many options and can spec in so many ways, most of which produce a whole lot more dodging than any other class gets. Not going too heavily into exceptions, every daredevil is going to have access to the following:

A)Weapon Dodges
B)Stealth/Dodge/Endurance on heal
C)50 Endurance on Steal
D)50 more maximum endurance
E) Some kind of Skill on dodge (either damage, condi damage, or dash + cleanse)
F)Heal on dodge (minor, but not exclusive with anything)

And that is just by being a daredevil. Should you need more dodges, you can just build for more dodges. If you need something else, well the DD has plenty of other survival tools.

For this reason, I’m not going to jump onto the all is vain train whenever the devs announce that some damage will be unavoidable.

Nike.2631:

Slowmelt.8547:

It would help, but base regeneration should also go up, even so.
In those longer fights, that’ll be the difference between life and death.
Raid fights and world boss type content definitely will have this sort of thing going on.

While I agree with you in spirit, in practice I just can’t imagine they’ll give us permanent, un-strippable Vigor and the possibility of Vigor beyond that… I mean looking at an existing trait of that sort: Natural Vigor is only a 20% gain and takes up the entirety of the Adept minor trait slot for its line.

Make no mistake: the Devs are (rightly) afraid of Vigor and its ilk. There was a massive game-wide nerfing of endurance boosting effects. Getting even 20% is gonna take a persuasive sell. It would be excellent to have something like Natural Vigor, I’m just not sure what we have to trade or where to cram it in?

Hmm… If Escapist’s Absolution was folded into Driven Fortitude (which is looking more and more reasonable these days) that would open up a Major slot. +25% endurance gain would look good in that tier scale-wise using Natural Vigor as a baseline, but Staff Master would also have to be tuned up slightly or it would be left in the dust by an always active partial Vigor.

The problem is you base your argument on the THEN. This extra endurance for extra dodges is supposed to be what allows the DD to survive which was not the case when they nerfed vigor.

If it takes 20 seconds to recharge all Endurance without any other bonuses for a 2 bar endurance thief, than it should take 20 seconds to restore all endurance on a three bar endurance thief.

Nike.2631:

(…BUT… if we must make a trade to make it right, I want something in my hands ready to offer.)

Everyone else is being offered a gold chariot with their elite specs. We’re being given a recycled chariot made from broken chariots for Daredevil.

It has outstanding potential… we’re so close to having an awesome elite spec. We just have very obvious glaring design issues that the community pretty much agrees on unanimously that are incorrectly implemented.

For example I personally don’t like the idea of a channeled heal. However Karl’s buff he’s putting in will make the heal good in some people’s eyes. I understand that and even though the heal isn’t one I’ll personally use. I get it – good on him. It’s the things that everyone knows are incorrectly implemented such as the Elite Spec mechanic being locked behind our grandmaster traits and the endurance regen not accounting for the extra dodge that are causing so many issues.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

For this reason, I’m not going to jump onto the all is vain train whenever the devs announce that some damage will be unavoidable.

I just assume it’s environmental stuff so I’m not too worried about it.

Ex. Everyone takes 1,000 damage a second outright for just standing in this room. Just like the vine things in silverwastes.

Shalien.9018:

Everyone else is being offered a gold chariot with their elite specs. We’re being given a recycled chariot made from broken chariots for Daredevil.

It has outstanding potential… we’re so close to having an awesome elite spec. We just have very obvious glaring design issues that the community pretty much agrees on unanimously that are incorrectly implemented.

For example I personally don’t like the idea of a channeled heal. However Karl’s buff he’s putting in will make the heal good in some people’s eyes. I understand that and even though the heal isn’t one I’ll personally use. I get it – good on him. It’s the things that everyone knows are incorrectly implemented such as the Elite Spec mechanic being locked behind our grandmaster traits and the endurance regen not accounting for the extra dodge that are causing so many issues.

This times a thousand pretty much. Daredevil has tremendous potential, if actually iterated on. Unfortunately, it seems as if it will go live in what feels like a very underdeveloped state. If Karl would open up and share some of the plans on what he plans to fix post-launch, it would go a long way to assuage people’s concerns. As is, it seems impossible to get a word on things which are near-universally agreed upon.

Amante.8109:

Shalien.9018:

Everyone else is being offered a gold chariot with their elite specs. We’re being given a recycled chariot made from broken chariots for Daredevil.

It has outstanding potential… we’re so close to having an awesome elite spec. We just have very obvious glaring design issues that the community pretty much agrees on unanimously that are incorrectly implemented.

For example I personally don’t like the idea of a channeled heal. However Karl’s buff he’s putting in will make the heal good in some people’s eyes. I understand that and even though the heal isn’t one I’ll personally use. I get it – good on him. It’s the things that everyone knows are incorrectly implemented such as the Elite Spec mechanic being locked behind our grandmaster traits and the endurance regen not accounting for the extra dodge that are causing so many issues.

This times a thousand pretty much. Daredevil has tremendous potential, if actually iterated on. Unfortunately, it seems as if it will go live in what feels like a very underdeveloped state. If Karl would open up and share some of the plans on what he plans to fix post-launch, it would go a long way to assuage people’s concerns. As is, it seems impossible to get a word on things which are near-universally agreed upon.

I can only give you so many +1s a night dude.

babazhook.6805:

If it takes 20 seconds to recharge all Endurance without any other bonuses for a 2 bar endurance thief, than it should take 20 seconds to restore all endurance on a three bar endurance thief.

I’m gonna put this as plainly as possible: If they thought that, they would have reused existing code and given us back the already working and tested Acrobat trait that did exactly that and played properly with Sigils of Energy and the Signet.

They WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to not do that. I’m not saying it’s right. I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m saying it is patently obvious that trait scared them. Badly.

12+ years of playing MMOs for me and the thing I’ve seen the least in any game anywhere? Reversion. Its the bloody mantra of the industry: “There is no going back.”

Just looking for a way forward. Because some degree of increased Endurance gain would be really, really nice.

Nike.2631:

I’m saying it is patently obvious that trait scared them. Badly.

No, they removed it so that they could give it back and call it an elite spec. It was in no way OP in any game mode. No one asked for Thief nerfs because we survived too long…

Amante.8109:

This times a thousand pretty much. Daredevil has tremendous potential, if actually iterated on. Unfortunately, it seems as if it will go live in what feels like a very underdeveloped state. If Karl would open up and share some of the plans on what he plans to fix post-launch, it would go a long way to assuage people’s concerns. As is, it seems impossible to get a word on things which are near-universally agreed upon.

We’ll have to wait and see in the BWE and release about how things actually are. I agree there are some fairly glaring issues, but I also think that Karl and co are waiting for after the next BWE before they do more changes. After all, by this point, any further changes will be too late to make it into BWE.

Regardless of what happens, it’s important for us to remain calm. Voicing our criticisms is fine, but when it becomes straight up insults and witchhunting, all of our credibilty is destroyed.

Honestly if they just rolled something in like “You also have X % more endurance regeneration” into Enforcer Training I think that would make people much more happy. People are just upset because they only got a dodge for their mechanic, when others got something like an Avatar Form or Overloads, etc.

Personally I think Daredevil is pretty good, but just needs some improvements in certain areas. For example, Driven Fortitude healing going up in some way or another. Escapist’s Absolution, eh. I’m okay with it being Major, but wouldn’t mind if it was a minor either. I think PI does enough damage, considering it was hitting for 4k on Revenants. Endurance Thief should work like lifesteal: It always gives you 50 endurance and lowers the enemy’s endurance by 50. If they have less than 50 it just goes to 0. Physical heal less channel time (although Karl stated this was going in). Finally just improve the staff animations, speed, and overall flow.

We just all need to be respectful of Karl, he’s actually trying to balance out the class, the other devs just want to give their classes cool stuff, not thinking about balance. If we are respectful on forums, then he’ll want to support us more. See how he hasn’t been posting these past couple of days because of all the rioting that’s been going on? We also haven’t seen the full patch notes. We should see what those have in store for us.

So expansion will bring a specialization with less dps than what we currently have, aka it wont be used in pve.

One of the best spvp +1 players in the world, think he can “maybe” make it viable in spvp (toker stream) and he is not even using the staff(cause it blows), so yeah it will most likely not be near dagger / pistol + SA and i bet after live and some more testing, it will be viewed as good as sword + dagger currently is, aka wont be viable in spvp.

so why again are we getting this useless specialization?

what an awesome expansion, you guys are so in tune with the players and hit the nail on the head, by bringing the players exactly what they needed/ wanted for the +1 class, just read all the joyfull and cheering comments from my fellow +1’s

Vykoz.7803:

So expansion will bring a specialization with less dps than what we currently have, aka it wont be used in pve.

One of the best spvp +1 players in the world, think he can “maybe” make it viable in spvp (toker stream) and he is not even using the staff(cause it blows), so yeah it will most likely not be near dagger / pistol + SA and i bet after live and some more testing, it will be viewed as good as sword + dagger currently is, aka wont be viable in spvp.

so why again are we getting this useless specialization?

what an awesome expansion, you guys are so in tune with the players and hit the nail on the head, by bringing the players exactly what they needed/ wanted for the +1 class, just read all the joyfull and cheering comments from my fellow +1’s

Less damage isn’t necessarily true, you can still rack up quite a lot. But I’m not a PVE person, so I wouldn’t know how well it works in PVE.

And Toker stated that he could definitely see S/D Daredevil viable. Have you tried S/D Daredevil? It’s definitely on par with D/P.

The point of this specialization is to become a more sustainable thief with more CC and lockdown. It definitely accomplishes that. Staff needs a bit more but it’s not terrible.

One of my buddies got to talk to Karl at twitch con! One thing we can still count on is that dodge will mitigate 100% of damage. I don’t know about certain bosses having unblockable attacks and would assume they still might, but at very least the thing that struck fear in my heart is a little toned down.

Shadow Dragon Bob.7160:

One of my buddies got to talk to Karl at twitch con! One thing we can still count on is that dodge will mitigate 100% of damage. I don’t know about certain bosses having unblockable attacks and would assume they still might, but at very least the thing that struck fear in my heart is a little toned down.

So no more Mai Trin like bosses?

alchemyst.2165:

Vykoz.7803:

So expansion will bring a specialization with less dps than what we currently have, aka it wont be used in pve.

One of the best spvp +1 players in the world, think he can “maybe” make it viable in spvp (toker stream) and he is not even using the staff(cause it blows), so yeah it will most likely not be near dagger / pistol + SA and i bet after live and some more testing, it will be viewed as good as sword + dagger currently is, aka wont be viable in spvp.

so why again are we getting this useless specialization?

what an awesome expansion, you guys are so in tune with the players and hit the nail on the head, by bringing the players exactly what they needed/ wanted for the +1 class, just read all the joyfull and cheering comments from my fellow +1’s

Less damage isn’t necessarily true, you can still rack up quite a lot. But I’m not a PVE person, so I wouldn’t know how well it works in PVE.

And Toker stated that he could definitely see S/D Daredevil viable. Have you tried S/D Daredevil? It’s definitely on par with D/P.

The point of this specialization is to become a more sustainable thief with more CC and lockdown. It definitely accomplishes that. Staff needs a bit more but it’s not terrible.

Toker thinks its maybe viable… as i said…he didnt practice it with team or in leagues yet, but he thinks maybe it is and even then, that is definitely not with using staff..My guess is it wont be when they finally get down to it,. but lets say it is.

So we get expansion that brings “maybe” a viable pvp spec, that aint even using the weapon we get in expansion. whooptidoo!!

PvE ppl tested and it did less damage than dagger/dagger(thank god), my guess is it wont be used in meta pve at all, unless some gimicky fight.

Kinda disgusting when you look at what other classes get.

So really it is a pointless and useless specialization as it is now.

Vykoz.7803:

Toker thinks its maybe viable… as i said…he didnt practice it with team or in leagues yet, but he thinks maybe it is and even then, that is definitely not with using staff..My guess is it wont be when they finally get down to it,. but lets say it is.

So we get expansion that brings “maybe” a viable pvp spec, that aint even using the weapon we get in expansion. whooptidoo!!

PvE ppl tested and it did less damage than dagger/dagger(thank god), my guess is it wont be used in meta pve at all, unless some gimicky fight.

Kinda disgusting when you look at what other classes get.

So really it is a pointless and useless specialization as it is now.

Again, have you tried it? From my experience playing Daredevil it’s pretty good, I’ve tested it against basically everything but berserkers (barely seen anything) and it can fare pretty well. It does well in PvP and WvW as a roamer/team fighter/1v1er.

Vykoz.7803:

Toker thinks its maybe viable… as i said…he didnt practice it with team or in leagues yet, but he thinks maybe it is and even then, that is definitely not with using staff..My guess is it wont be when they finally get down to it,. but lets say it is.

So we get expansion that brings “maybe” a viable pvp spec, that aint even using the weapon we get in expansion. whooptidoo!!

PvE ppl tested and it did less damage than dagger/dagger(thank god), my guess is it wont be used in meta pve at all, unless some gimicky fight.

Kinda disgusting when you look at what other classes get.

So really it is a pointless and useless specialization as it is now.

Well keep in mind that the weapon is brand new (and being actively worked on) so it’s hard to say whether or not it’s viable. As for PvE…it’s hardly fair to compare a weapon built for survivability to compete with a set built for raw damage for DPS. Of course D/d will win that one. It doesn’t mean that it will be the best for raids, since there may be a lot of attacks that we have to avoid with a combination of weapon evades and dodges.

And no…it’s not really disgusting when you compare to other classes because (at least in PvE) we’re still going to be one of the top damage dealers. I haven’t played DrD yet though so I will reserve judgment on viability in PvP. One point of jealousy that I am having, though, is that Revenant looks like it is just as fast as Thief is.

Daredevil S/D definitely has potential. That said, it merits mentioning that the two builds showing any promise whatsoever use little to none of the new utility skills, and CERTAINLY don’t use the Staff. Daredevil S/D will be bog standard S/D but with Daredevil instead of Deadly Arts. Condi P/D will run Daredevil instead of Shadow Arts and maybe replace one utility skill with Impairing Daggers. Everything else is looking standard or sub-par right now… not exactly a ringing endorsement of how the elite specialization is going to change the profession.

Amante.8109:

Daredevil S/D definitely has potential. That said, it merits mentioning that the two builds showing any promise whatsoever use little to none of the new utility skills, and CERTAINLY don’t use the Staff. Daredevil S/D will be bog standard S/D but with Daredevil instead of Deadly Arts. Condi P/D will run Daredevil instead of Shadow Arts and maybe replace one utility skill with Impairing Daggers. Everything else is looking standard or sub-par right now… not exactly a ringing endorsement of how the elite specialization is going to change the profession.

Actually I crafted up a D/D Staff Build for WvW and was wrecking face with stunlocks and damage combos. I was using 3-4 Physical Skills. I even made a video of it lol. I think there are lots of openings for builds, such as S/P, D/D condi, maybe some D/P, or just straight up Staff Short bow.

BTW I think the S/D everyone is talking about actually does use Deadly Arts. It goes DA/Trick/DD I believe. At least, that’s what I saw most people using and that’s what I used myself.

Remember that everyone only had a couple of days to test and theorycraft builds. I’m sure there are going to be lots of cool builds popping up later on in the next beta or after launch. But to sum up my post I think there is a good amount of build potential for DD. Honestly the thing that will keep back some builds from being meta is the weaponset themselves, but some of them do have specific perks that would help them with DD. For example, Dagger Dagger is the only set that can combo very easily with a Daredevil’s CC, making it easy to deal damage. So who knows what’s to come.

Nike.2631:

Zero Day.2594:

And then the dragon just gobbles you up because you dont have the survivability.

Always with the negative waves… Its a beautiful tank.

:P They did say (druid spec reveal) that HoT will be more of a hazardous and dangerous environment. Pretty sure they also mentioned more conditions.

We just all need to be respectful of Karl, he’s actually trying to balance out the class, the other devs just want to give their classes cool stuff, not thinking about balance.

Yeah, but I would much prefer to have a dev that wanted to give us cool stuff over one that cares about balance. I want a dev that is actually competitive with the other devs. Did they not discuss what each was doing internally? Was the class reveals the first time he’d heard about any of this stuff? “What, the Necros are getting a whole huge Scythe-wielding crazy form? Druids are getting a whole alternate healer form? Engis are getting a drone army and 30 seconds of stealth? Man, I just gave the Thieves an extra hash mark on their endurance bar and called it a day. I thought we agreed no gifts over $5!”

Amante.8109:

Daredevil S/D definitely has potential. That said, it merits mentioning that the two builds showing any promise whatsoever use little to none of the new utility skills, and CERTAINLY don’t use the Staff. Daredevil S/D will be bog standard S/D but with Daredevil instead of Deadly Arts. Condi P/D will run Daredevil instead of Shadow Arts and maybe replace one utility skill with Impairing Daggers. Everything else is looking standard or sub-par right now… not exactly a ringing endorsement of how the elite specialization is going to change the profession.

i disagree. In beta I spent my time on three different weaponsets using DD traitline. These were Condition d/d dagger 50 percent of the time , the staff itself in a power build 25 percent of the time and 25 percent time with p/p and daredevil in a power build.

The Staff even with its first run worked quite well and can only be better with the new damage added.

P/P has much more potential using DASH to get around the battlefield and kite the opponent.

I spend most of my time d/d condition and its effectiveness increased significantly compared to the current iteration using this traitline. Not only this but I tried all combinations of three traitlines outside of using Critical strikes and all showed significant potential.

Impaling lotus along with impairing daggers allows one to load on significantly more conditions. The evades that one does get from a DB adds health and removes conditions. Bandits defense worked very well with Impairing daggers as a stun break with the knockdown allowing DBs over the target.

Traiting SOM in the current state is marginal against a single opponent as one only gains health when one has INI which can get you in trouble once ini used. With impaling lotus AND impairing daggers one gains two more sources of health gain.

I used combinations of Shadow arts, acrobatics, deadly arts and trickery along with the DD line and all of them had benefits over and above what we can get today just because of the DD line.

Not sure how I like the 450 range on Dash… I already felt like the 360 range forced me out of combat too much (though I could see the 60 extra range just needing some getting used to).
Curious to try it out, but I fear it’s one of those things that’s only cool in theory and that it’d be better of being a simple 300 range.

And there’s still the matter of the 3 “grandmaster” traits…
Now that we’ve seen the druid, I really cannot agree with the implementation of this.
The dodge-improvements should be baseline for DD and be selectable (I know Shalien.9018 made great suggestions for it back on Page 12 and in a seperate topic on this forum). Why is DD the only Elite Specialization with it’s “new mechanic” locked behind “grandmaster” traits? Sorry, it just doesn’t feel right by me.

I spend all of the time testing the S/D daredevil

it wont catch up with SA D/P

both dueling and teamfight

Maugetarr.6823:

So no more Mai Trin like bosses?

No guarantees on that (if anything giant red zones of death are probably guaranteed if the regular mobs in HoT are any indication), however, dodge rolling through it will still mitigate 100% of the damage as long as you reach a ‘clean spot’ by the end of the dodge. The real trick will be learning each of the daredevil dodges to use on the threshold of such attacks. My main fear came from the idea that enemies would start having ground target attacks that would be unblockable. I can understand a wind up mega hit if you’ve failed a mechanic, but essentially in the rush to get the stream about druid out the dev misrepresented his meaning. My believe is he was speaking very much about ranger/druid, and about how raids would encourage more than just ten top tier dps builds. I mean, think of the last time you did a dungeon or fractal with a ‘speed run total zerk’ pug group. Did they really meet those expectations? Because for me 80% of the time the fail miserably and bicker at each other. Yet with how the content is structured, those people STILL wind up beating the thing eventually by bashing their heads against the keyboard until it works. For raids, that won’t cut it (at least by their goals), because the skill requirement is going to be raised while the forgiveness meter is all but non-existent (no revive orbs or way points). The DPS will still need to dodge but also be focusing on mitigating damage through weakness and destroying break bars, in essence making it faster. One of their main goals was that zerker should be an equal but different solution compared to sinister. You’ll notice a lot of what the druid does both mitigates enemies in a control sense while promoting party synergy through heals AND damage. Frost spirit buff + that shiny new glyph = ALL THE DAMAGE. Weakness from Druid + Weakness from Daredevil = constant weakness to keep the squishes up while still maintaining dps.

As for Main Trin, you can dodge roll through the canon phase if the area gets surrounded by red circles of doom, and, so long as you land in a ‘clean’ spot take no damage. Took me a bit on thief to figure that out but sb5 is still the best option combined with harpy feathers to stay stealth (for reasons that are probably well known). Either way the important part is that Karl’s energy was genuinely there. He wants this to work and is putting in insane hours to make it so. Granted we do have the right and need to say what we feel isn’t energizing the build, but I don’t want us lashing out with personal attacks or belittling someone just because someone somewhere said something.

Anywho’s I’ll be beta testing Daredevil and scrapper exclusively on BW3. So much has changed from BW2 that I’m really looking forward to the improvements.

Shadow Dragon Bob.7160:

Maugetarr.6823:

So no more Mai Trin like bosses?

No guarantees on that (if anything giant red zones of death are probably guaranteed if the regular mobs in HoT are any indication), however, dodge rolling through it will still mitigate 100% of the damage as long as you reach a ‘clean spot’ by the end of the dodge. The real trick will be learning each of the daredevil dodges to use on the threshold of such attacks. My main fear came from the idea that enemies would start having ground target attacks that would be unblockable. I can understand a wind up mega hit if you’ve failed a mechanic, but essentially in the rush to get the stream about druid out the dev misrepresented his meaning. My believe is he was speaking very much about ranger/druid, and about how raids would encourage more than just ten top tier dps builds. I mean, think of the last time you did a dungeon or fractal with a ‘speed run total zerk’ pug group. Did they really meet those expectations? Because for me 80% of the time the fail miserably and bicker at each other. Yet with how the content is structured, those people STILL wind up beating the thing eventually by bashing their heads against the keyboard until it works. For raids, that won’t cut it (at least by their goals), because the skill requirement is going to be raised while the forgiveness meter is all but non-existent (no revive orbs or way points). The DPS will still need to dodge but also be focusing on mitigating damage through weakness and destroying break bars, in essence making it faster. One of their main goals was that zerker should be an equal but different solution compared to sinister. You’ll notice a lot of what the druid does both mitigates enemies in a control sense while promoting party synergy through heals AND damage. Frost spirit buff + that shiny new glyph = ALL THE DAMAGE. Weakness from Druid + Weakness from Daredevil = constant weakness to keep the squishes up while still maintaining dps.

As for Main Trin, you can dodge roll through the canon phase if the area gets surrounded by red circles of doom, and, so long as you land in a ‘clean’ spot take no damage. Took me a bit on thief to figure that out but sb5 is still the best option combined with harpy feathers to stay stealth (for reasons that are probably well known). Either way the important part is that Karl’s energy was genuinely there. He wants this to work and is putting in insane hours to make it so. Granted we do have the right and need to say what we feel isn’t energizing the build, but I don’t want us lashing out with personal attacks or belittling someone just because someone somewhere said something.

Anywho’s I’ll be beta testing Daredevil and scrapper exclusively on BW3. So much has changed from BW2 that I’m really looking forward to the improvements.

What i was referring to was the un-dodgeable shot she fires if you were at the farthest away from her. If it means that its going to be more stuff like the molten duo or the cannon phase, thats fine, but literally un-dodgeable attacks are what worries me.

Maugetarr.6823:

What i was referring to was the un-dodgeable shot she fires if you were at the farthest away from her. If it means that its going to be more stuff like the molten duo or the cannon phase, thats fine, but literally un-dodgeable attacks are what worries me.

So…not super relevant, but I just realized that since you’re able to dodge Mai Trin’s teleport shot with Heartseeker, you should also be able to dodge it with Dash since they have the same travel distance.

Edit: video for how to do

As for Main Trin, you can dodge roll through the canon phase if the area gets surrounded by red circles of doom, and, so long as you land in a ‘clean’ spot take no damage. Took me a bit on thief to figure that out but sb5 is still the best option combined with harpy feathers to stay stealth (for reasons that are probably well known). Either way the important part is that Karl’s energy was genuinely there. He wants this to work and is putting in insane hours to make it so. Granted we do have the right and need to say what we feel isn’t energizing the build, but I don’t want us lashing out with personal attacks or belittling someone just because someone somewhere said something.

Well, putting time and effort into it is great, but they need to have the right ideas first, the right goals for where the spec should be, what it’s meant to accomplish when it gets there, whether it does that thing well, and whether that thing is something that needs doing in the first place. That’s the problem with the Thief right now, anything it used to do well, it no longer does well, and anything it can do well, is apparently not a thing anyone wants or needs done. There’s no real purpose to the class, and I think there really should be. There should be things that the class does well, AND those things should be things we’d want to do, like being able to damage enemies without dying, just as an example.

I would rather they sit down and figure out what they want to do, and tell it to us as soon as possible, even if it means they can’t implement any of it until after launch, than for them to work 18 hour days from now until launch working themselves crazy over a class that even once they “get there” is not anything anyone actually wants to play.

Aside from restoring Feline Grace to its original state, I can’t think of any easy fixes that would put things back on track. Just “making the promised dodges work as originally advertised” isn’t going to cut it, and I’m not exactly sure what would.

Hello

I’m not a common forum poster but I do dwell it very often. I would like to thank the Developers who designed Daredevil, it is a great concept and it finally added dmg on interupt which I have been wanting on thief longer then I can remember. People seem to be very upset with the clunkyness of some skills or the animations but all in all I loved the animations and the clunkyness will be fixed, we just have to be patient.

A couple of things that I would like to suggest and give feedback on:

-Bandits Defence: I absolutely love this skill, we finally get a block and a knockdown which lets us easily set up our burst. The only issue with it is that the aftercast on the knockdown can easily get you killed especially when you fight mesmers. One solution for this would be to make the animation for the knockdown an evade. In teamfights it won’t make much of a difference and in a 1v1 it will knock the person down before they can react anyway. I’d love to hear some feedback on this

-Distracting Daggers: A great skill on paper but easily interupted in the middle of a fight and they run out very quickly often making you feel like you have to spam them out instead of waiting patiently to use them at the right moment to mess your opponent up.

-Endurance Thief: I love this trait but it lacks the feel of actually stealing endurance. what if you would change it so it would steal your opponents endurance up to a maximum of 50 or perhaps 75(might be over powered). This would make it feel more rewarding and helps in the lockdown playstyle that Pulmonary strike gives.

-Dash: I love this skill but the straight line dash makes it very hard to position yourself. Like others have mentioned, have you tried giving it Superspeed instead of a 450 range dash?

-Pulmonary Strike: I don’t know if this is intended but when vampirism runes take effect and the opponent mist forms it clears the polmunary strike and they don’t get hit.

-Driven fortitude: this is strong but could we change it so we can get more then 1 heal per dodge? maybe make the maximum 3 heals per dodge? that way evading several attacks in 1 evade makes it feel more rewarding. In a 1v1 it’s not to strong and in a team fight we could use the little bit of extra survival.

Other then those few minor things I am very exited about Daredevil! and can’t wait for the next beta weekend.

Edit: Added Driven Fortitude feedback

I posted this in another thread but I’m pretty sure Karl & co. don’t have time to browse everything so I’m copy pasting it here:

The concerns for Daredevil are the base principles behind the elite specialization’s layout and how Daredevil is designed in a manner that doesn’t match the design standard of all other elite specializations. Thereby making it suffer from power-creep being introduced by HoT.

Every other elite spec gets:

• New/robust profession mechanic
• New weapon
• New 6-10 skill category
• 3 new minor traits
• 9 new major traits

Daredevil gets:

• 1 additional dodge bar
• New weapon
• New 6-10 skill category
• 3 new minor traits
• 6 new major traits
• Obviously, the dodges are the main part of the new mechanic. Instead of being given to us baseline like everyone else, these are locked behind our trait line and replace the grandmaster traits.

All that needs to be done to balance Daredevil against the design standard is roll the dodges into the elite spec mechanic so that it matches every other elite spec’s design. Then Daredevil would have:

• New/robust profession mechanic
• New weapon
• New 6-10 skill category
• 3 new minor traits
• 9 new major traits

From there skill balance can be done normally.

Can anyone tell me if it’s possible to get a refund for this expansion? The more I read, the less I’m confident that my Thief will actually be any fun to play. Maybe it’s best to just wait and see what happens after launch at this point.

Shalien.9018:

The concerns for Daredevil are the base principles behind the elite specialization’s layout and how Daredevil is designed in a manner that doesn’t match the design standard of all other elite specializations. Thereby making it suffer from power-creep being introduced by HoT.

• Obviously, the dodges are the main part of the new mechanic. Instead of being given to us baseline like everyone else, these are locked behind our trait line and replace the grandmaster traits.

All that needs to be done to balance Daredevil against the design standard is roll the dodges into the elite spec mechanic so that it matches every other elite spec’s design.

When comparing Daredevil to some of the other elite specializations, this seems fair. The dodge grandmaster traits could alternatively be strong enough to make up for not having separate grandmaster traits to choose from. However, if the dodge trait choice is merged into the Minor Adept Daredevil trait, Daredevil would have a much stronger Minor Adept trait than all of the core trait lines. Some other elite specializations already seem to have this problem though, so they should be reworked a bit instead of adding that problem to the Daredevil line as well. Either that or the core trait lines all need to be brought up to par with these new more powerful elite trait lines. Not choosing your elite specialization shouldn’t be a detriment to your build. I think elite specializations are supposed to be balanced with the core trait lines, not be way stronger, taking away from build variety.

Valarius.9437:

Can anyone tell me if it’s possible to get a refund for this expansion? The more I read, the less I’m confident that my Thief will actually be any fun to play. Maybe it’s best to just wait and see what happens after launch at this point.

A number of people have already gotten refunds through sending a support ticket. Two milestones worth waiting for before deciding would be tomorrow’s balance patch, and when the BWE3 changes are announced/playable. If you don’t see meaningful improvement by then, by all means get a refund… I know I will.