Guild Wars 2

at least they could remove 1 hour aftercast from backstab if they planned on adding such a stupid thing as that cooldown

I totally agree with this topic. I play staff only but it also feelsbadman. Inability to do anything for full 1 sec is absurd and unnatural. If only i could get normal atack if sneak atack fails. Maybe add 1 sec cooldown on sneak atack, but exchange it afterfail with normal autoatack.

Pff, if you 2 are going to brag about your gender then I would much rather watch you 2 have a topless mud wrestleing match, not silly pve fractals videos , or your jam.

Back on topic, has bs always had an after cast this long? It’s weird because tactical strike has a faster re-cast time then back stab.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pff, if you 2 are going to brag about your gender then I would much rather watch you 2 have a topless mud wrestleing match, not silly pve fractals videos , or your jam.

Back on topic, has bs always had an after cast this long? It’s weird because tactical strike has a faster re-cast time then back stab.

Yes as far as I remember, this was the only time Sword had an attack that was faster than Dagger

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pff, if you 2 are going to brag about your gender then I would much rather watch you 2 have a topless mud wrestleing match, not silly pve fractals videos , or your jam.

Back on topic, has bs always had an after cast this long? It’s weird because tactical strike has a faster re-cast time then back stab.

yeah and after AA buff landing backstab was hardly worth the effort over autoattacking since in place of backstabs cast/aftercast you could do about the same damage with dagger AA without any positioning requirement

We want anets attention, not yours, cabbage – we just need you as a subscriber.

Jana.6831:

We want desperate kids attention (so they can riot for us), not yours, cabbage – we just need you as a subscriber.

fix’d

On more serious note, i would actually love to hear their justification for the nerf. I personally see 0 logical reasoning behind it.

If you look at all the changes made to thief from June last year to now- there is absolutely no logic behind it.
Putting CiS in grandmaster, taking might from SA (yeah, I know Deceiver, still it would’ve spared us the stealth attack cooldown because SA wouldn’t be that useless now), reveal skills for tanky classes who don’t need it, stealth for classes who don’t need it and who don’t have all these penalties we have, this stealth passively stealthing me and hampering with my mechanics “I’m going to CnD and then.. whoopps thanks engi, now I’m revealed” and so on – I could write a very long list about what is wrong with thief and how they passively nerfed thief more and more by buffing other classes.
They have no clue – sorry anet but it’s true and it’s a shame because this game is awesome and could’ve been really great but not having a proper balance team destroyed it.

ETA: Some Jam and tomatos to make this post more readable

Oh… Ok then

Jana.6831:

taking might from SA (yeah, I know Deceiver, still it would’ve spared us the stealth attack cooldown because SA wouldn’t be that useless now),

;D

Honestly, I’d have been fine with SA giving might. The problem is the way it gave might and how much it could give, relative to the at-the-time power SA had. Recall this was pre-Rejuv change which nerfed the healing.

If they wanted to let the line have offensive capabilities, they should have designed the offensive aspects of stealth (like might gain) to be applied in bulk on stealth activation and then decay quickly over the course of stealth’s duration.

I.E., “Whenever you enter stealth (as in it can’t be stacked), gain [5 stacks (1s)] + [3 stacks (1.5s)] + [2 stacks (2s)] might.”

Rewards more aggressive play, doesn’t favor camping stealth like D/P gaining heals + initiative + massive damage, and adds more depth to SA as a whole.

SA needed nerfs as it was, and frankly, without the ridiculous power creep from HoT, I’d actually probably say SA would be a reasonable trait line still. It’s just been invalidated with power creep from Daredevil and the opposing classes to no longer even give good in-stealth bonuses relative to what most are just running passively.

I guess that was still more a problem with D/P, I only ever really stacked might when in PvE (where they wanted it now) or when I used SR – that is my only option to really “camp” stealth anyway.
The nerfs made to SA don’t affect D/P – for that set the line is as it was (minus the might).
Would be for me as well if CiS weren’t grandmaster or on my offhand dagger. But since I’m “forced” to work around that I noticed that I really can’t chose my playstyle with SA. Also some traits helping with melee (which D/D is) would be appreciated, like last refuge which is locked in the first bracket.

LR was moved to the adept slot because they finally realized it was killing people.

DeceiverX.8361:

LR was moved to the adept slot because they finally realized it was killing people.

Yes, but taking anything else than SE would be stupid.

And before it got moved, many people argued taking SA was just as suicidal as not running the trait line entirely because of LR being in the minor slot causing melee-revealed status.

I’m not saying it’s in a great spot now, but at least it’s not considered an inconsistent and at-times suicidal trait line anymore.

I know, but you yourself said it’s only a problem for those who aren’t used to it.
My point is: I can’t even take it even if I want to because it’s locked with SE – and I’d be stupid to take SA but not SE.
There’s too little options for D/D in that line.

In the end what would work: Signet one shot build and rest other sets but D/D like I used to play it doesn’t stand a chance.

Having Shadow’s Embrace switch places with Merciful Ambush seems to make a lot more sense. Merciful Ambush seems to fit better with the other two Adept Majors anyway. In fact, I would even suggest some mixing and combining those traits as follows…

Merciful Ambush keeps its Stealth on revive as well as faster revives. I would also move the Deception skill recharge to this.

Last Refuge and Concealed Defeat get combined. Blinding Powder at 25% health as well as Smoke Screen on downed. In fact, I’d also add Blinding Powder on downed also.

That opens up a slot for a new trait :-)

If they are going to keep this I have suggested in changes to SA to make Meld with shadows baseline. An extra second stealthed for those not taking SA might help.

Just remove meld with shadows. Put SE there since everyone all but needs SE.

See my suggested changes as I wanted to directly address the issue with d/d by sperating Cis from its current trait and making it standalone.

Which would then further buff D/P
Swap SE with merciful ambush.

Khisanth.2948:

DoomKnightMax.6592:

Khisanth.2948:

learn to play skillfully rather than frantically smashing your keys?

Yes, because a 1 second delay on a skill which is only avalible in stealth implies skillful game play in a meta where blocks, invulnerability, aegis, blind, passives and Dodge spam is at its peak. Do you feel stupid now?

Anyone can push buttons. A skillful person pushes the right buttons at the right time while other people just try to smash all their keys as fast as possible.

Enemies are not idiot they can also push the right buttons at the right time
If you haven’t met some players that fully capable of counter thief, you are not that skilled to say like that. If you meet that kind, then you just proved you are wrong

Well thieves can still one shot almost anything accept Warriors or DH’s. I agree the stealth nerf hurts especially D/D thief. and it is unnecessary, but i dont think more ways to kill is the problem. I think we need to stop having our ways to kill taken away from us. already DH makes thief pretty useless unless they are pistol/ pistol (and in that case everything else can wreck their face.

emkelly.2371:

Well thieves can still one shot almost anything accept Warriors or DH’s. I agree the stealth nerf hurts especially D/D thief. and it is unnecessary, but i dont think more ways to kill is the problem. I think we need to stop having our ways to kill taken away from us. already DH makes thief pretty useless unless they are pistol/ pistol (and in that case everything else can wreck their face.

I beg your pardon the only class that wrecks my face on P/P is Elementalists, other others are fodder to me.

emkelly.2371:

Well thieves can still one shot almost anything accept Warriors or DH’s. I agree the stealth nerf hurts especially D/D thief. and it is unnecessary, but i dont think more ways to kill is the problem. I think we need to stop having our ways to kill taken away from us. already DH makes thief pretty useless unless they are pistol/ pistol (and in that case everything else can wreck their face.

Not in pvp….. you literary can’t one shot anyone there.

the only time a thief can 1 shot anyone in pvp is another thief. even bersker ele can react to a solo 1 shot if not under presure, use invul and port (lag might still get them killled)

thief has no passive defence/invul.

And in PvP the only real way another thief will die to a thief is the culmination of multiple attacks at, I.e. Basi Venom, BP>Bound+ Steal w/mug then a HS just to be sure.

Imparing daggers+steal backstab (might have the order wrong there)with the right traits like Mug and pulminary impact, and others creates an instant combo that deals 20+k damage. You can repeat it once every 20 seconds. I had a pro thief show it to me after he reked me with it on my Rev (granted i suck at rev). It gets stopped by DH (with traps, and auto blocs) Warrior’s Defy Pain, and some trait from Mesmer that reverses a daze or something (forget what exactly it is? you do it from stealth so it hits pretty out of nowhere.

The build I currently use can typically 1-shot most professions, so long as they have roughly around 15000 HP, and are sitting on Toughness 2500 or below. Unfortunately it’s a backstab build that I worked on trying to perfect before HoT dropped and requires prepping the field before a fight, or good reflexes to drop down Traps in the right locations for the best effect. Was a lot better before they changed Lead Attacks, since it allowed for maximum damage with Initiative to follow up. Now I gotta prep that damage modifier as well. Though this is in sPvP. I imagine in WvW it’d hit a lot harder ALso, if it doesn’t kill them in the first hit, it sure as hell gives them a fright when their HP drops down to near null. Sometimes I like to hit someone once, or kill someone, then drop my Traps down and stand a safe distance hidden away, and watch the sheer amount of skill-spam happen when the Traps are triggered, and the player expects to be attacked for large chunks of their health.

As far as responding to the topic though, they definitely need to give us access to our standard auto attack at least, rather than just purely locking us out for a second. It’s a long kitten time to wait in the midst of a fight, where that one second is enough for a myriad of things to happen. All of which either mean success or failure when in a fight.

I love how they did this right as the buffed the check out of dragonhunter…that was a little on the nose. They may as well as added a pop up message saying.something like…""eat it thieves!"

As someone who takes the SA trait line all these comments about SA being bad are somewhat strange.

Merciful Ambush prevents so many stomps on allied players. Shadows Embrace is a decent condi clear in a condition heavy meta. Concealed Defeat is not named correctly because the main value is a cooldown reduction on Shadowstep (taking it from 50 seconds to 40 is amazingly helpful). Last Refuge is junk but 2/3 is not bad.

Meld with Shadows, with the stealth attack cooldown, is actually fairly useful in mitigating the awfulness of a 1 second “can’t do anything” nerf that was added without explanation. More time in stealth is more time to try again before losing stealth. Leeching Venoms is a great heal/dps boost/cooldown reduction. Alternatively you can take HT for a huge advantage in combat.

RoS is a huge help—instead of giving us protection as a buff we have an almost unstrippable “buff” (stealth) that reduces incoming damage by 25%. Add in Daredevils UC and we have the regular potential for protection style damage reduction.

CiS is a dream baseline for any offhand dagger thief. The reason is because blind on stealth makes thief even harder to hit and lock down. Rending Shade is a good offensive alternative by turning boonstrip into something any weapon set can apply regularly. SR is less good than in the past but still a solid trait for some builds.

In short—I don’t think SA is as weak and in need of fixing as some people.

You can’t take all of these traits together and make something useful out of it, that’s the problem. Merciful Ambush might be nice to have in some situations, but I’m usually alone – who should I rez and how does that benefit me?

I’ve used it to start to res someone, fired off a stealth attack, and then continue resing them in PvE.

I’ve used it to prevent stomps when I interrupt a 2 or 3 v 1 against a person on my server pairing.

I use all of the traits together. Using Sneak Attack is my primary damage. I also have to get in close to use my offhand dagger. So the blind on stealth and damage reduction in stealth is good for me. Being faster in stealth is always good, like superspeed only more available. Stealth on steal is also a golden opportunity for more Sneak Attacks. That cooldown reduction I mentioned? It applies to Hide in Shadows, a highly underrated condition clear, heal, and stealth all in one. It heals me and sets me up for another Sneak Attack.

SA is an offensive trait line for me. And a defensive trait line. My defense and offense merge together.

Acrobatics and Staff share the same synergy. When you attack you can also be evading. When you evade you are setting yourself up for another attack. Synergy. It is how I think of my builds.

So you’re skipping SE in favour of Hide in Shadows and Last Refuge – good to know, I’m marking you as the only one I know so far who does this.

What offensive stuff does SA have?

And btw: Go away from your x vs x situation but imagine a duel.

Hide in Shadows yes, Last Refuge no. I use Concealed defeat because it helps Hide in Shadows. Very necessary given the larger cooldown on that heal. I don’t find SE to be necessary in most situations given the condition clear of Escapist’s Absolution.

Steal on stealth is a good way to regain stealth and get another Sneak Attack off. It also is a blind on steal (combo with CiS). CiS is great for non D/P that don’t have access to abilities that blind as consistently.

I duel all the time and this is how I win them.

saerni.2584:

Hide in Shadows yes, Last Refuge no. I use Concealed defeat because it helps Hide in Shadows. Very necessary given the larger cooldown on that heal. I don’t find SE to be necessary in most situations given the condition clear of Escapist’s Absolution.

Steal on stealth is a good way to regain stealth and get another Sneak Attack off. It also is a blind on steal (combo with CiS). CiS is great for non D/P that don’t have access to abilities that blind as consistently.

I duel all the time and this is how I win them.

Right it was that trait with that the cooldown reduction is merged – that trait has really no other benefit than the reduced cooldown on a heal with a very telegraphed animation.
You miss out on steal, CnD, Sneak attack combo and sacrifice the damage you’d do (+vulnerability) for a free stealth – which might not be that bad for a condi thief, but still.
You’re only halfway saved by DrD and by the fact that those who are left playing this game are rather bad and well that there’s few P/D thieves around.

why not just reveal us after we miss a backstab because that’s pretty much whats going on. 1s CD out of the 3s/(4s withSA) plus 1 or 2s to catch up to your target.

And reduced cooldown on Shadowstep. It is a really useful ability that goes from a 50 second to 40 second cooldown with that trait. That means by the time the “Return” ability runs it will again be available in another 30 seconds. 30 seconds is not long. My build outruns other thieves because I have lower cooldowns on teleports like this.

The heal is telegraphed, but the condition clear and regaining stealth is good for a build that can apply constant ranged pressure. It means saving initiative for the next CnD which will, as you say, apply vuln and prepare another Sneak Attack. There are downsides to it, in part because the combination of effects is so useful. I’ve learned to play around those downsides so it’s not something I worry about too often.

I ran this build pre-daredevil. It was Trickery, Shadow Arts, and Deadly Arts. It did more damage that my current build but it also lacked the mobility enhancements of Daredevil. Unhindered Combatant is like an addiction. Once you have it, it’s hard to give it up. Back then the traits were ordered differently, of course, so I had some options that wouldn’t make sense now.

Steal + CnD is a waste of initiative if you gain stealth on steal. Just steal and then Sneak Attack. My damage comes from bleeds, so the CnD isn’t as valuable as you seem to think it is for me. That combo makes sense for power builds where CnD is a significant chunk of damage in its own right.

I run Da/Tr/Cs with D/P, I have ran it every season when I am not messing around on experimental builds, last season I kitten ed and went the whole season to t6 Ruby using Berserker amulet and did well. I can say that with my playstyle the Backstab Delay does become an annoyance since now I have to track even more to ensure I land a BS if it would be the most beneficial action making it almost a waste to even attempt the BS.
Majority of the Time I no longer use BS I use stealth as a way to drop pressure on my self reposition and reengage with a far superior skill.

Even with the Extra Second provided by Meld with Shadows the delay hurts Thieves do the the large aftercast on top of the CD, these unnecessary nerfs to Thief core mechanics are degrading the gameplay, as it was without all of the Passives or get out of jail free cards that all other classes had forced thief players to have to Outplay/have more skill than the opponent to have a chance to win, while every other class can let the class play for them, with this CD on stealth attacks it compounds this nature even more without any compensation provided.

Let’s use Backstab as the main example in the meta Build Da/Tr/Dd you thieves have 3 secs of stealth to attempt to land a BS which only has high damage if they can get behind the opponent, so on top of a short time frame we have to make sure we have proper positioning, which no other class has to have for any of their skills on thieves have these restrictions, before it was manageable to get a BS off reliably even if the target had aegis since we could get at least 2 BS off in 3 seconds, this doesn’t account for if players move out of range dodge, or use any othe damage mitigation ability like Aoe blind or invulns. With the change Thieves running the Meta build get exactly one chance to BS unless they waste a lot more resources to get even more stealth which can be easily interrupted in most cases, this is do to having a built in 1 CD and the long after cast, on a class that was not supposed to have any CDs on Weapon skills.

The easiest fix would be for Anet to remove the CD, which will most likely never happen since it is rare for them to admit they were wrong and revert changes.

The next thing would be to allow Stealth attacks to by pass some of the passive defenses/ active defenses like Block, they can either. Make Stealth attacks baseline unblockable or tie it to a trait in an underused Trait line either in SA or in CS which it would tie well together with on Hidden Killer.

The other option would be to make Meld in Shadows baseline to compensate for the Cd+long aftercast.

And one last Change that could help compensate is to remove the positioning requirement and make the behind target damage the only damage factor on the attack from any angle.

/end wall of text

saerni.2584:

And reduced cooldown on Shadowstep. It is a really useful ability that goes from a 50 second to 40 second cooldown with that trait. That means by the time the “Return” ability runs it will again be available in another 30 seconds. 30 seconds is not long. My build outruns other thieves because I have lower cooldowns on teleports like this.

The heal is telegraphed, but the condition clear and regaining stealth is good for a build that can apply constant ranged pressure. It means saving initiative for the next CnD which will, as you say, apply vuln and prepare another Sneak Attack. There are downsides to it, in part because the combination of effects is so useful. I’ve learned to play around those downsides so it’s not something I worry about too often.

I ran this build pre-daredevil. It was Trickery, Shadow Arts, and Deadly Arts. It did more damage that my current build but it also lacked the mobility enhancements of Daredevil. Unhindered Combatant is like an addiction. Once you have it, it’s hard to give it up. Back then the traits were ordered differently, of course, so I had some options that wouldn’t make sense now.

Steal + CnD is a waste of initiative if you gain stealth on steal. Just steal and then Sneak Attack. My damage comes from bleeds, so the CnD isn’t as valuable as you seem to think it is for me. That combo makes sense for power builds where CnD is a significant chunk of damage in its own right.

So you say CnD is useful and then that it’s useless? And CnD is another blind and vulnerability which is very useful, no matter your build. You have a point though: If you’re additionally running DrD you don’t really need heal in SA and SP is a useless trait anyway – still that is kind of my point. There’s so much wasted with SA and in my opinion you’re wasting more stuff – you really are saved by DrD not by SA.

Btw: What’s your second set?

CnD itself isn’t useless for P/D condi. It’s the combo with steal that can be redundant if you have stealth on steal. As an aside, if it wasn’t for UC and EA being so good together I wouldn’t take Daredevil necessarily. WS is basically a throw away trait for me. It’s just the other two options make no sense on a condi build that doesn’t use physical skills. Dropping a needle-trap on heal and especially the poison duration/on steal that Deadly Arts grant is hugely tempting. I just like the extra dodge/condi clear of Daredevil more in a meta that almost requires constant cleanse to stay alive.

I’d say SP needs a longer term benefit or a personal benefit. Like increase the regeneration to 10 seconds in duration. A personal benefit might be might gain? Hard to do without power creep, but it’s hard to do anything with SP the way it is now.

I use offhand Shortbow for mobility and for clearing camps because the detonated cluster bomb is significant bleed that can clear a lot of NPCs quickly. I can also use the SB evade if I need to contest a point against multiple enemies.

I’d be glad to show you how it plays in Heart of the Mists if you like. [EDIT] Assuming you are not on an EU server :/

I’m on EU. You don’t need to show me but I’m curious if I can make a better buidl that’s why I was asking for your second set. but I’d actually need the whole build I guess.
One thing I don’t get though: why aren’t you using D/D as a second set if you’re getting heal on evades and say your damage comes from bleeding?

SP needs to be scrapped, just like VS baseline – people don’t stay in SR – how should I heal them? They don’t stay close to me and often can’t because I’m a lot more mobile and have to evade more than them – party boons that have a range are useless with thief.

I find CnD to be a better use of initiative. Mainly SB as second set is just better because it provides more utility overall. One combo that is possible is lay down a poison field, swap weapons and stealth, then combo with the field. Sneak Attack is a finisher so all the bullets will poison in addition to any stacked venom. The teleport is also a mainstay, as is cluster bomb for some NPC fights, like killing camps efficiently. Naturally, Death Blossom could probably clear those NPCs slightly faster, but I would lose the rest of the utility from the SB.

Damage wise, the bleed from Sneak Attack is far more damage and shorter duration compared to Death Blossom, which reduces the chance that the bleed will be cleansed.

D/D evade condi bleed builds are very visible, can be locked down more easily, and have a range problem dealing with kiting builds. Basically, I wouldn’t gain enough utility and new abilities by adding in Death Blossom/Heart Seeker as compared to SB.

One weakness is that projectiles can be blocked/reflected/dodged more easily, of course, but that can be made up for using proper timing and so on.

What I know of your build: You’re wasting potential. DrD isn’t helping you, unless you’re using physical utility skills, SA is wasted – you’d really be better off with either DA,SA,T or DA, T, DrD – but alas, I’m no condi player.

DrD is basically my condi clear line. I cleanse by dodging. I have lots of dodges. I am highly immune to cripple/immobilize. That alone justifies taking the line.

There is also synergy between Uncatchable in Trickery and the dodges that Daredevil provides. For some examples of how I play it there is the video in my signature if you’re interested.

God i still hope they are changing this back.

How on earth it got through their balance team and they decide to do this change is baffling, but then again they have done so many kittened changes over the years.

Can you please just acknowledge the fail in this and change it back, its stupid that you get paid for setting up the huge combo and initiative cost with a cc on yourself, cause of some laggy / buggy content, both pve and pvp.

please fix, this certainly doesnt feel like fun, fluid or engaging gameplay.

shadowplay > steal = stealth = spam 1111 + boon steal = +5 boons and backstab land 100%

I will fix it

old days —-———→ steal = stealth = spam 1 while target evade, block, invul or you miss, oh at last backstab.
nowadays —-———→ chase, chase, chase hit 1, target blocks. You spend tons of initiative again to get stealth and —-——> chase, chase, chase, hit 1, target evaded. repeat again, target just moved slightly. repeat again, oh… you got immo. repeat again, target blocked. repeat again, target evaded, moved, you missed. you desperatly press #3. 1000 damage is done, iniative is gone. no backstab. GG. and if you miss #3 you press whatever. This nerf definitely makes D/P, D/D thief to be much more skillful. It makes thieves more frustrated for sure.

Forgot to say how you land backstab. Target stands still or you hit by random, or target is inexperienced against thief.

Not mentioning fights in all those red rings of AOE CC, AOE spike dmg. Add lag to this and D/D D/P is so useless in group fights.

Anet, I really dislike your silence. It’s so easy just to type reply with following options.
1. we wont change this nerf.
2. we have another idea about it (what is it?)
3. Backstab delay was mistake and will be rolled back (date).

reddie.5861:

shadowplay > steal = stealth = spam 1111 + boon steal = +5 boons and backstab land 100%

they should make our backstabs unblockable or buff the damage 15% more.
or better yet, get initiative if we miss, is evaded, or invul

This post needs to stay on top until we get a response. Yes, of course now we need to be much more precise on when we attempt a backstab, but no other profession is punished as much as we are for missing an attack. Why should we be the target of “Get better at landing you skill” when no other profession is.

True. not to mention, i think thief may be the only class with a cooldown on a #1 skill. correct me if i’m wrong.

also, confession here. I’m new to thief this season, so when i heard about the cooldown on stealth attacks, i totally thought they were talking about attacks that GAVE stealth, like cloak and dagger. I immediately thought. “oh that’s not bad. totally goes against the idea of initiative, but doable.” now i’m like. “OMFG! this goes against the concept of initiative, #1 skills, AND cripples a thief!”

Professor Sensei.2941:

…

Some thief’s are new players. That 1s delay is too big a penalty for new players trying to learn the Class. You are only okay with it because you have already got the skill to play around it. New players don’t have that luxury.

And i’m not even talking about myself, because i use A full evasion, no stealth DD Condi build. stealth attacks never even cross my mind.

Think reducing the animation time for CND would help, but yeah, not a HUGE fan of this CD