Guild Wars 2

epicsmooth.7825:

Krathalos.3461:

Hide in Shadows does nothing to immobilize.
Shadow Refuge does nothing to immobilize.

Can’t hit you with kill shot if he doesn’t see you.

Withdraw is pretty awful. No one is going to use it when thief already lacks condition removal options, and Hide in Shadows give you this. It’s a very niche ability, and one that is outclassed even on those builds.
Smoke Screen can’t be used behind you. Also pretty bad as a whole and rarely used.
Roll for initiative has a 60 second CD and is rarely used. It could have been on CD or he could have not had it.
Scorpion Wire has 900 range and can’t be used behind you.
Headshot has 900 range and is a pistol off-hand ability, which he more than likely didn’t have. Also can’t be used behind you.

sigh…

Also I forgot you could shadow step away or to the warrior also.

But those pesky Bow+Gun warriors are all the rage.

Edit: People seem to be way to focused on the “immobilize”

If he’s started kill shot, which he more than likely did since no thief is going to waste their stealth while immobilized (since you can still be attacking), going stealth does not interrupt channeled abilities. This means he has more than enough time to start kill shot after Bolas before the thief uses Hide in Shadows.

I’m really confused. What part of “his break stun could have been on CD” didn’t you understand? If Shadowstep is on CD (if he even has it on the slot, since the supposedly OP Backstab build doesn’t use it) – and Steal is already on CD since he said the warrior was dodging all his moves – and the warrior is behind him, what do you possibly think he can do to interrupt him? You can’t turn around while immobilized.

EasymodeX.4062:

Krathalos.3461:

Except thief doesn’t have an interruption that can reach 1500 range on any build possible. The warrior could have also been behind him, thus making an interruption impossible while immobilized.

The Warrior was at 900 range.

And if the warrior was even somewhat intelligent and moved behind him after immobilize, the range is completely irrelevant.

A Thief can deal 30k damage in 0.3 seconds.

Cloak and Dagger itself is .5 seconds. Backstab is .25. Nice try, though.

Daecollo.9578:

As a thief, my biggest fear is the sword/warhorn warriors or axe/warhorn warriors.
Comparing a First tier trait (10 points.) to a (30 points trait.) is pretty silly though, dazing for 1 second every steal is very terrible for what you have to sacrifice for it. (30 points into the condition tree for a direct damage move…)

Warriors however can use Sword’s 1 to get a cripple every 3 autoattacks and immobilize every 3 autoattacks, then “http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_” Gain fury from that and with boon duration, get pretty much perma fury.

With Warhorn you can get Perma Swiftness/Vigor and EXCELLENT condition removal.

I’m not seeing where they get immobilize from auto attacks

epicsmooth.7825:

Daecollo.9578:

As a thief, my biggest fear is the sword/warhorn warriors or axe/warhorn warriors.
Comparing a First tier trait (10 points.) to a (30 points trait.) is pretty silly though, dazing for 1 second every steal is very terrible for what you have to sacrifice for it. (30 points into the condition tree for a direct damage move…)

Warriors however can use Sword’s 1 to get a cripple every 3 autoattacks and immobilize every 3 autoattacks, then “http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_” Gain fury from that and with boon duration, get pretty much perma fury.

With Warhorn you can get Perma Swiftness/Vigor and EXCELLENT condition removal.

I’m not seeing where they get immobilize from auto attacks

Lets see, “Leg Specialist” (minor trait.) 10 trait vitality. (tactics tree.)
Immobilize Target when your Cripple.

Sword’s 3 combo has a cripple.

I play a 80 warrior and an 80 thief.

EasymodeX.4062:

Come on man, you’re going to see bow+gun Warrs at least as often as you see S/D+P/P thieves.

The Sword/Dagger is perfect for setting up Unload DPS from the Pistol, right? Man these CC+ weapon swap channel DPS builds sound fabulous.

You’re really trying hard to sound right, aren’t you? CC weapon swap builds on warrior actually are viable, and used pretty often in sPvP. Thief doesn’t have CC long enough to warrant weapon swapping being good. That last statement, although an attempt at satire, was an extremely awful one.

Come up with a better reason than “but this class can hit harder than another class!” to try to warrant a nerf. You’re completely ignoring everything a thief has to give up to do it, or everything a thief already doesn’t have simply because they are a thief. All of the classes in the game can be built for instagib kills.

Daecollo.9578:

epicsmooth.7825:

Daecollo.9578:

As a thief, my biggest fear is the sword/warhorn warriors or axe/warhorn warriors.
Comparing a First tier trait (10 points.) to a (30 points trait.) is pretty silly though, dazing for 1 second every steal is very terrible for what you have to sacrifice for it. (30 points into the condition tree for a direct damage move…)

Warriors however can use Sword’s 1 to get a cripple every 3 autoattacks and immobilize every 3 autoattacks, then “http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_” Gain fury from that and with boon duration, get pretty much perma fury.

With Warhorn you can get Perma Swiftness/Vigor and EXCELLENT condition removal.

I’m not seeing where they get immobilize from auto attacks

Lets see, “Leg Specialist” (minor trait.) 10 trait vitality. (tactics tree.)
Immobilize Target when your Cripple.

Sword’s 3 combo has a cripple.

I play a 80 warrior and an 80 thief.

You’re thinking of thief here. Warrior’s sword combo has bleed on the first two, and raw damage on the last. Thief’s, however, has a cripple on the last hit. Sword mainhand warrior does have a cripple on the 3 ability.

Krathalos.3461:

If he’s started kill shot, which he more than likely did since no thief is going to waste their stealth while immobilized (since you can still be attacking), going stealth does not interrupt channeled abilities. This means he has more than enough time to start kill shot after Bolas before the thief uses Hide in Shadows.

Wait you said he could be behind, so can’t be attacking him then.

Good to see you took what we knew from the fight and went and made it into a totally different fight. Nice job.

I’m really confused. What part of “his break stun could have been on CD” didn’t you understand? If Shadowstep is on CD (if he even has it on the slot, since the supposedly OP Backstab build doesn’t use it) – and Steal is already on CD since he said the warrior was dodging all his moves – and the warrior is behind him, what do you possibly think he can do to interrupt him? You can’t turn around while immobilized.

Mean any ability that shadow steps, I hear you can use the shortbow to gain the distance outside the kill kitten.

i am tired how many times i get imobilized, just because warriors like to cripple a lot.

Daecollo.9578:

epicsmooth.7825:

Daecollo.9578:

As a thief, my biggest fear is the sword/warhorn warriors or axe/warhorn warriors.
Comparing a First tier trait (10 points.) to a (30 points trait.) is pretty silly though, dazing for 1 second every steal is very terrible for what you have to sacrifice for it. (30 points into the condition tree for a direct damage move…)

Warriors however can use Sword’s 1 to get a cripple every 3 autoattacks and immobilize every 3 autoattacks, then “http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_” Gain fury from that and with boon duration, get pretty much perma fury.

With Warhorn you can get Perma Swiftness/Vigor and EXCELLENT condition removal.

I’m not seeing where they get immobilize from auto attacks

Lets see, “Leg Specialist” (minor trait.) 10 trait vitality. (tactics tree.)
Immobilize Target when your Cripple.

Sword’s 3 combo has a cripple.

I play a 80 warrior and an 80 thief.

are you talking about
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Final_Thrust

or

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hamstring

Krathalos.3461:

Daecollo.9578:

epicsmooth.7825:

Daecollo.9578:

As a thief, my biggest fear is the sword/warhorn warriors or axe/warhorn warriors.
Comparing a First tier trait (10 points.) to a (30 points trait.) is pretty silly though, dazing for 1 second every steal is very terrible for what you have to sacrifice for it. (30 points into the condition tree for a direct damage move…)

Warriors however can use Sword’s 1 to get a cripple every 3 autoattacks and immobilize every 3 autoattacks, then “http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_” Gain fury from that and with boon duration, get pretty much perma fury.

With Warhorn you can get Perma Swiftness/Vigor and EXCELLENT condition removal.

I’m not seeing where they get immobilize from auto attacks

Lets see, “Leg Specialist” (minor trait.) 10 trait vitality. (tactics tree.)
Immobilize Target when your Cripple.

Sword’s 3 combo has a cripple.

I play a 80 warrior and an 80 thief.

You’re thinking of thief here. Warrior’s sword combo has bleed on the first two, and raw damage on the last. Thief’s, however, has a cripple on the last hit. Sword mainhand warrior does, however, have a cripple on the 3 ability.

Thats exactly it.

Constantly Bleeding/Crippling/Weakening/Immobilizing, this is devastating.
Weaken (Warhorn) is -50% Endurance Regeneration, this COMPLETELY destroys a thief.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mcRkVzm9bax0GaVcRszsV
Stacking Full Knights (Precision/Toughness/Power.) Jewelry and Rabid (Precision/Toughness/Condition Damage.) Armor.

Using 40% Condition Duration Food, you can get 100% Bleed Duration. (the cap.)
Your cripples/immobilizes last 50% longer (food+traits.)

And you constantly get Condition Removal.

Since Condition Damage has such a high diminishing returns, 300+your base is enough for your bleeds damage.

Stacking Several Bleeds/Weakness/Cripple/Immobilize/Plenty of Condition Removal = Dead Thief, this is basicly my warriors build for pvp, I almost never die to a thief.

Use 2 15% Monk/Healer Runes, 2 Rune of Rage.
30% Boon Duration/20% Fury Duration.
50%+20% Boon Duration in Vitality Tree = Every time you cripple (3 on autoattack.) you gain 5 seconds of fury, that can be maintained forever with the other traits and also switching to your axe/sword.

Boon Duration (30+20%) also makes you have perma vigor and swiftness from warhorn.

(P.S) if you really wanna hurt a thief, run Accuracy/Chill Sigil on Critical.

Warrior is amazing and has several builds and traits many people overlook, people overlook how devastating weakness/chill is to thief compared to other classes…

epicsmooth.7825:

Krathalos.3461:

If he’s started kill shot, which he more than likely did since no thief is going to waste their stealth while immobilized (since you can still be attacking), going stealth does not interrupt channeled abilities. This means he has more than enough time to start kill shot after Bolas before the thief uses Hide in Shadows.

Wait you said he could be behind, so can’t be attacking him then.

Good to see you took what we knew from the fight and went and made it into a totally different fight. Nice job.

I’m really confused. What part of “his break stun could have been on CD” didn’t you understand? If Shadowstep is on CD (if he even has it on the slot, since the supposedly OP Backstab build doesn’t use it) – and Steal is already on CD since he said the warrior was dodging all his moves – and the warrior is behind him, what do you possibly think he can do to interrupt him? You can’t turn around while immobilized.

Mean any ability that shadow steps, I hear you can use the shortbow to gain the distance outside the kill kitten.

“What we knew”? He never said the warrior was directly in his face firing kill shot, like what you and the other guy are claiming. I’m giving you one of the possible situations in which this happened, whereas you’re giving one where the thief always has the advantage. How is that any better than what I did, when mine is completely viable?

If you immobilize someone, you move behind them. This is what every single person who even tries in PvP does. Immobilize is quite possibly the best condition simply because of this reason.

Infiltrator’s Arrow has a pretty long cast time when used at max range, so if he didn’t switch and use it as soon as he was immobilized, Kill Shot would hit him either way. He could, however, use Infiltrator’s Arrow directly next to the warrior, and use the blind to stop the Kill Shot. However, this is all out of speculation, and we don’t know what his build is or even if he had any initiative left after their initial fight.

So right now, I’m understanding that, supposedly, he should have been able to do all of this in a very small time window. Isn’t this what everyone’s arguing against? Thief is supposed to be “impossible to counter” because it’s too fast.

Krathalos.3461:

“What we knew”? He never said the warrior was directly in his face firing kill shot, like what you and the other guy are claiming. I’m giving you one of the possible situations in which this happened, whereas you’re giving one where the thief always has the advantage. How is that any better than what I did, when mine is completely viable?

what we knew was he used pin down to immobilize him (longbow skill) and kill shot to mess him up (gun skill)

On another note he could have placed a seed turret block, etc etc.

Krathalos.3461:

So right now, I’m understanding that, supposedly, he should have been able to do all of this in a very small time window. Isn’t this what everyone’s arguing against? Thief is supposed to be “impossible to counter” because it’s too fast.

Nice assumption sir.

Krathalos.3461:

And if the warrior was even somewhat intelligent and moved behind him after immobilize, the range is completely irrelevant.

So the Thief had over 2.5 seconds to figure out how to avoid Kill Shot. Lmao.

Meanwhile, <insertclass> has 0.3 seconds to figure out how to avoid the instagib.

Cloak and Dagger itself is .5 seconds. Backstab is .25. Nice try, though.

I said deal damage, not cast all the abilities in the combo. There is 0.3 seconds between the Mug, CND, and Backstab. The full combo being executed in less time than it takes for Bull’s Rush to land is pretty telling, however.

Infiltrator’s Arrow has a pretty long cast time when used at max range, so if he didn’t switch and use it as soon as he was immobilized, Kill Shot would hit him either way.

Except the Thief has >4.0 seconds to use Infiltrator’s Arrow because the Warrior had to run over 900 range to get behind the Thief.

At a minimum, the Thief has 2 seconds from the swap + Kill Shot.

Krathalos.3461:

Come up with a better reason than “but this class can hit harder than another class!” to try to warrant a nerf. You’re completely ignoring everything a thief has to give up to do it, or everything a thief already doesn’t have simply because they are a thief. All of the classes in the game can be built for instagib kills.

1. I never said Thieves should be nerfed because they can hit harder than another class. You’re trying very hard to fabricate arguments that are not only irrelevant, but never happened.

2. You’re completely ignoring everything a Thief still has. You’re also demanding that all classes give up almost everything so they can play the game at all.

3. No class can be built to kill in <1.0 seconds from range with nearly zero telegraph. Hell, no other class can be built to kill in <1.0 seconds period. A cold Frenzy HB on an afk target will still take most of 2 seconds.

I mean, the funny part here is that the troll brigade is trying to claim that Kill Shot, which has a 1.75s casting time, is somehow the answer to the Backstab combo’s balance, when the BS combo does more damage in 0.75 seconds. So sad. HB is even better at 3.5 seconds. Rofl.

There’s a reason why those abilities have legit counters, and a 0.75s backstab combo does not.

A video of a necromancer killing someone from ranged in 1.0 seconds with nearly 0 telegraph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pK6M5rf_8I&feature=BFa&list=HL1352314833

The target is also completely dazed. (cannot do anything.)

Berserker Warriors can bull’s rush/frenzy/100b, killing someone in 1.0 seconds.

Daecollo.9578:

Daecollo.9578:

Lets see, “Leg Specialist” (minor trait.) 10 trait vitality. (tactics tree.)
Immobilize Target when your Cripple.

Sword’s 3 combo has a cripple.

I play a 80 warrior and an 80 thief.

You’re thinking of thief here. Warrior’s sword combo has bleed on the first two, and raw damage on the last. Thief’s, however, has a cripple on the last hit. Sword mainhand warrior does, however, have a cripple on the 3 ability.

Thats exactly it.

Constantly Bleeding/Crippling/Weakening/Immobilizing, this is devastating.

The only Cripple a Sword+Warhorn Warrior has access to is the Sword skill #3 which has a 15 seconds cooldown. 1 second of Immobilized every 15 seconds now counts as “constantly”?

Krathalos.3461:

Cloak and Dagger itself is .5 seconds. Backstab is .25. Nice try, though.

You can activate Cloak and Dagger and then use Steal to shadowstep next to your target; if timed correctly all three hits happen in nearly just the animation time of Backstab. And because “hit from behind” is an 180° arc it isn’t that unusual that you’re in the perfect position for a backstab right after Steal.

EasymodeX.4062:

Daecollo.9578:

A video of a necromancer killing someone from ranged in 1.0 seconds with nearly 0 telegraph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pK6M5rf_8I&feature=BFa&list=HL1352314833

The target is also completely dazed. (cannot do anything.)

Berserker Warriors can bull’s rush/frenzy/100b, killing someone in 1.0 seconds.

I think someone needs to learn to tell time. The Necro’s kills clearly took ~4-5 seconds, roflmfao.

The Thief troll brigade getting even sadder.

First they try to claim that HB kills as fast (at 3.5 seconds). Then they claim Kill Shot kills as fast (at 1.75s). Now it’s Necros at 4+ seconds.

Somewhere we’ll find a burst that does as much damage as a Thief in 0.3 seconds of damage (or 0.75 seconds of total action).

Are we going to try Mesmers next? MB-iB-F1 with MoP interleaved is still going to run you 3.0 seconds at the least.

Your over exaggerating a bit, CD/Backstab/Steal takes 4-5 seconds as well, unless the target is trying to run away the thief has to get behind him.

DesertRose.2031:

Daecollo.9578:

Daecollo.9578:

Lets see, “Leg Specialist” (minor trait.) 10 trait vitality. (tactics tree.)
Immobilize Target when your Cripple.

Sword’s 3 combo has a cripple.

I play a 80 warrior and an 80 thief.

You’re thinking of thief here. Warrior’s sword combo has bleed on the first two, and raw damage on the last. Thief’s, however, has a cripple on the last hit. Sword mainhand warrior does, however, have a cripple on the 3 ability.

Thats exactly it.

Constantly Bleeding/Crippling/Weakening/Immobilizing, this is devastating.

The only Cripple a Sword+Warhorn Warrior has access to is the Sword skill #3 which has a 15 seconds cooldown. 1 second of Immobilized every 15 seconds now counts as “constantly”?

Krathalos.3461:

Cloak and Dagger itself is .5 seconds. Backstab is .25. Nice try, though.

You can activate Cloak and Dagger and then use Steal to shadowstep next to your target; if timed correctly all three hits happen in nearly just the animation time of Backstab. And because “hit from behind” is an 180° arc it isn’t that unusual that you’re in the perfect position for a backstab right after Steal.

Sword skill ‘3’ does NOT have a internal Cooldown, it cripples every time.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leg_Specialist

It does not have an internal cooldown, it works every cripple.

Daecollo.9578:

Sword skill ‘3’ does NOT have a internal Cooldown, it cripples every time.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leg_Specialist

It does not have an internal cooldown, it works every cripple.

ummm http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hamstring

You said the skill trait had an internal CD, not the skill itself.

EasymodeX.4062:

That said, the correct assessment would be “1s + 2-4s from the burst skill”, since the trait is not the only source of Immob.

Correct, somehow I had “just from auto attacks” in my mind.

This is getting quite repetitive quite rapidly.

All I see are people on one side trying to make rational arguments, give build/strategy advice, and provide technical information their opponents can’t be bothered to research.

On the other side are emotional people with entitlement complexes that are convinced their playstyle is perfect and simply ignore every post that gives them good advice or objectively contradicts their ridiculous hypotheticals.

This goes for every class argument I’ve seen, not just the Thiefs’.

If the arguments presented in this thread about the Guardian’s complete lack of responses to rudimentary Thief tactics were valid, it would mean that Guardian is easily the worst profession in the game, because every other matchup would be able to exploit these (fabricated) weaknesses just as easily.

I think we’re wasting our time on people whose minds are already made up. It comes down to ArenaNet now. They’re at a crossroads where they have to decide whether they balance the game around players who enjoy adapting and learning, or players desperate for a convenient villain.

I really, really hope they pick the right one, because one of those groups will never be happy.

EasymodeX.4062:

Krathalos.3461:

Except thief doesn’t have an interruption that can reach 1500 range on any build possible. The warrior could have also been behind him, thus making an interruption impossible while immobilized.

The Warrior was at 900 range.

A thief can’t do anything in .3 seconds.

A Thief can deal 30k damage in 0.3 seconds.

Stop it. You are losing your cred, which was of value once.

BTW, nothing wrong with Mesmers tho?

Thieves will get nerfed because of the smaller picture, one person got ganked by another person and felt that the damage done was too high, even though said damage can and has been avoided.

Big picture: with today’s wvwvw tactics (turtles, aoes, group aoes, support, and portal bombing), thieves serve better scouting/defending or seeking out yaks to kill.

But I digress, thieves are the devils.

EasymodeX.4062:

A Thief can deal 30k damage in 0.3 seconds.

I would love to see that screenshot.

Cheers

SFtheWolf.5179:

This is getting quite repetitive quite rapidly.

There’s a reason for that.

Look at the people constantly complaining, it’s the same people repeating the same BS over & over. I say BS, because most of it is just fluff, trying to justify their nerf claims. If you visit these forums long enough, you’ll realise the complainers are a very very small vocal group. The large majority of people have no issues.

STRanger.5120:

Devildoc.6721:

It is weird, but I’m just saying I’d rather see it than a flat out damage nerf, or worse, complete overhaul of the thief to remove the initiative system and put them on cooldowns.

I’d rather see a 0.5-1s weapon skill GCD that prevents mug+C&D+bs all going off at once than see C&D on a 45s cooldown.

Mind you, our utilities would need to be able to ignore this GCD, so it wouldn’t really be a GCD, just a CD across weapon skills.

Even 0.5s would disrupt the instant gank build, while leaving every other use of the skills viable.

Like I wrote yesterday, ppl will start to use infiltration signet instead of Steal to fasten their combo, so whiners will be still whining about the fast blink+C&D combo and backstab (because positioning for it takes some time = GCD won´t be as much problem there….)

Using the signet should also cancel the casting of C&D just like steal should

its an easy fix if they do it for one…. It will happen to the other

eradicate the combo and thief is fine

epicsmooth.7825:

Doomdesire.9365:

So today I had an encounter with a warrior who knew how to dodge my backstab, knew how to counter it, used immobilization on me(pin down, it was called, rendering my stealth useless) then proceeded to switch to his rifle, and use killshot for 9K instantly killing me, but hey, thief is the only one that’s OP, right? Because burst doesn’t exist elsewhere, right? Because there aren’t other classes that have the same amount of damage, right? Because there aren’t players that know how to counter thief, right? (sarcasm, if you didn’t understand).

Want me to post the pictures then ask.

Don’t know which is more sad that you countered you perfectly or that you couldn’t evade a killshot.

I guess you didn’t read the pin down part (immobilization, I’m guessing you’re a forum warrior who doesn’t play the game). Is it too hard to accept the fact that it is counterable? Or are you just so conceited and narrow minded towards your hatred of thieves to the point where you are outright denying that other players can’t counter it. Good players know what to do. Bad players don’t. Those are the ones that complain.

I score this entire thread -100 points

Information is really bad within, and theres to many sub arguments around the obvious making it go far far off topic

Stop infiltrators signet and steal for comboing with cloak and dagger and the thief is fixed. Its that simple everyone.

Just came back after a day or so away… Really scratching my head at the state of this argument. Somehow backstab thieves went from dealing 9k damage in 3 seconds to 20k damage in 1.5 seconds over the course of a week or so, and now to 30k damage in 0.3 seconds over the course of one day. All without a single buff and, indeed, some nerfs in the first time period. Those kitten thieves and their 1337 h4xx0r 5killz… how’s a nerf supposed to fix them if they can just hack in huge damage increases like that?

EasymodeX.4062:

Krathalos.3461:

Except thief doesn’t have an interruption that can reach 1500 range on any build possible. The warrior could have also been behind him, thus making an interruption impossible while immobilized.

The Warrior was at 900 range.

A thief can’t do anything in .3 seconds.

A Thief can deal 30k damage in 0.3 seconds.

Maybe against an upscaled player with no armor or a rabbit.

I’m just going to assume this is either trolling or a joke.

If it’s honestly as easy as you say it is to do “30k damage in .3 seconds”, show us.

I’d love to see you post a vid of the damage after showing us that the person you did it to has no armor or traits(Spvp) / is upscaled with no armor or traits(WvW)

Because otherwise, you know you’re exaggerating and making a complete fool of yourself.

If this is an attempt to troll, you should work on that. It’s fairly obvious

2/10 – simply for making me reply.

ArchNemesis.4897:

EasymodeX.4062:

Krathalos.3461:

Except thief doesn’t have an interruption that can reach 1500 range on any build possible. The warrior could have also been behind him, thus making an interruption impossible while immobilized.

The Warrior was at 900 range.

A thief can’t do anything in .3 seconds.

A Thief can deal 30k damage in 0.3 seconds.

Maybe against an upscaled player with no armor or a rabbit.

I’m just going to assume this is either trolling or a joke.

If it’s honestly as easy as you say it is to do “30k damage in .3 seconds”, show us.

I’d love to see you post a vid of the damage after showing us that the person you did it to has no armor or traits(Spvp) / is upscaled with no armor or traits(WvW)

Because otherwise, you know you’re exaggerating and making a complete fool of yourself.

If this is an attempt to troll, you should work on that. It’s fairly obvious

2/10 – simply for making me reply.

30K dmg in .3 seconds is not possible, at least via thief. Stop kidding yourself buddy.

Doomdesire.9365:

ArchNemesis.4897:

EasymodeX.4062:

Krathalos.3461:

Except thief doesn’t have an interruption that can reach 1500 range on any build possible. The warrior could have also been behind him, thus making an interruption impossible while immobilized.

The Warrior was at 900 range.

A thief can’t do anything in .3 seconds.

A Thief can deal 30k damage in 0.3 seconds.

Maybe against an upscaled player with no armor or a rabbit.

I’m just going to assume this is either trolling or a joke.

If it’s honestly as easy as you say it is to do “30k damage in .3 seconds”, show us.

I’d love to see you post a vid of the damage after showing us that the person you did it to has no armor or traits(Spvp) / is upscaled with no armor or traits(WvW)

Because otherwise, you know you’re exaggerating and making a complete fool of yourself.

If this is an attempt to troll, you should work on that. It’s fairly obvious

2/10 – simply for making me reply.

30K dmg in .3 seconds is not possible, at least via thief. Stop kidding yourself buddy.

Technically not true, as backstab only takes 0.25 seconds. You will still be able to hit for 30k in 0.3 seconds when versing a bunny or a racoon.

bwillb.2165:

Just came back after a day or so away… Really scratching my head at the state of this argument. Somehow backstab thieves went from dealing 9k damage in 3 seconds to 20k damage in 1.5 seconds over the course of a week or so, and now to 30k damage in 0.3 seconds over the course of one day. All without a single buff and, indeed, some nerfs in the first time period. Those kitten thieves and their 1337 h4xx0r 5killz… how’s a nerf supposed to fix them if they can just hack in huge damage increases like that?

We are just getting better over time, obviously
This discussion is without any sense now, if they nerf BS, ppl will argue about P/D condition build next… or cluster spam build, or Deathly blossom build, then they move to another class and start to whine there….

Again and for the last time, the balance can be adressed AFTER the classes are bugfixed, and i mean all the classes, not only Thief or Elementalist. Without fixes, it´s not balancing, but just simple ruining the class mechanics and abilities…

tl;dr

I think it’s safe to say that 2/3rds of the whiners here – and that’s a conservative estimate – basically got rolled by a Thief in sPvP or WvW and are now here jumping on the bandwagon and clamoring for nerfs. Here’s an idea guys, do what I do. If I get beat, I shrug and move on instead of crying like a little kitten. You should try it sometimes, whining doesn’t endear you to people.

P.S. I don’t play Thief.

Something that had me thinking.. would a huge nerf in backstab damage be justified if that damage was simply replaced by enough stacks of bleed over x seconds to cover the damage that was nerfed off? Maybe throw in some cripple and weakness for a few seconds as well.

roamzero.9486:

Something that had me thinking.. would a huge nerf in backstab damage be justified if that damage was simply replaced by enough stacks of bleed over x seconds to cover the damage that was nerfed off? Maybe throw in some cripple and weakness for a few seconds as well.

This idea came to my mind as well, there´s a but however.
This change will basically make the build non-viable, because it will change backstab into a condition-based ability (like the pistol stealth ability). But it will be great if the option to choose the stealth ability from two different skills will be implemented (for example backstab = direct dmg / cutthroat = massive stack of bleeding).
However, this doesn´t solve the wall of crying here

It’s too easy to pull off such a high-burst damage for even the most unskilled players. I’ve seen at least 6 thieves in every game I play now because of c/d backstab. It was cool when there were a few thieves doing it, but every thief uses it.

I ran a slight alteration to the C/D steal combo myself, then I realised there’s so much better builds out there, like the one I’m currently using.

The main issue is the fact the Steal fits into the C/D animation. They just need to decrease the cast time of C/D, so it’s even with steal. Or, C/D can get interrupted by other skills. A thief has a lot of “casting” skills that interrupted by other skills or motions. Like the Devourer Venom get’s deactivated when you dodge with the trait “uncatchable”, so let’s throw it onto C/D as well.

They could lower the damage of backstab to an x1.5 instead of the current x2. That’ll make Steal/Backstab viable, but with a lower burst damage.

Either way, I’m eager to see what Anet has install for the thief. All these bandwaggon sPvP thiefs are gunna cry so hard on the forums. Gunna be hillarious. But most importantly, I want to see what kind of Buffs we’ll be getting. That’s what I care about the most.

roamzero.9486:

Something that had me thinking.. would a huge nerf in backstab damage be justified if that damage was simply replaced by enough stacks of bleed over x seconds to cover the damage that was nerfed off? Maybe throw in some cripple and weakness for a few seconds as well.

Not really. In addition to slowing the damage, this would also make it require both crit and condition damage to be effective, make it ridiculously easy to avoid (beyond turning around or dodging or interrupting the ability, you could now just get rid of a large portion of it with condition removal, which, on a lot of classes, is built into the heal skill), and also kill it in PvE where bleed stack caps would have you largely kittened when other players are present (one of the reasons people run backstab is because its one of only a couple builds that doesn’t rely on the badly designed conditions mechanic).

bwillb.2165:

roamzero.9486:

Something that had me thinking.. would a huge nerf in backstab damage be justified if that damage was simply replaced by enough stacks of bleed over x seconds to cover the damage that was nerfed off? Maybe throw in some cripple and weakness for a few seconds as well.

Not really. In addition to slowing the damage, this would also make it require both crit and condition damage to be effective, make it ridiculously easy to avoid (beyond turning around or dodging or interrupting the ability, you could now just get rid of a large portion of it with condition removal, which, on a lot of classes, is built into the heal skill), and also kill it in PvE where bleed stack caps would have you largely kittened when other players are present (one of the reasons people run backstab is because its one of only a couple builds that doesn’t rely on the badly designed conditions mechanic).

Beat me to saying it.

Not to mention the people complaining about it are the ones who don’t really pay attention to their defensive skills to begin with. This would make it just as effective against the complainers (causing them to continue to complain) while making it useless against everyone else. It’s the worst of both worlds.

Also I strongly disagree with the idea of channelled skills being interrupted by steal. Steal being an instant cast ability is integral to way more than quick backstab combos. It would mean not being able to steal while stunned, Dagger Storming, releasing Caltrops, or a number of other avenues which make the Trickery tree desirable. It would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Kirito.8796:

The ones that dont think it needs a nerf are the ones that use it period. I (being a thief myself) have full carrion exotic armour, green exotic trinkets and traits are 0/0/30/25/15. I got hit for a 4.5k steal, 5k cloak n dagger then an 11k bs, no class should be able to pull off 20k dmg in little over a second. Its not only bad for the one who’s hit but also the one whos using it. All they do is look for squishy players, execute it then either die from aoe or run away and reset, they are such a burden in most team fights either being dead or attacking the most useless players.

Edit: I had 20k health and was fully traited into toughness at the time.

Actually, I mostly use D/P. The numbers you’re quoting are fringe cases in the best of circumstances, but I don’t honestly care if the build in question gets a nerf or not. However, I just know that, like the Pistol Whip nerf, they’ll do it in a way that nerfs unrelated builds such as mine much more than their actual target. And the small sect of people that instigate thief nerf demands every day will continue to do so. So I cannot in good faith support any major nerf until a few things happen:

1. Bugs are fixed. For pete’s sake, a lot of the things people complain about wouldn’t be possible if they fixed some bugs. And some things that aren’t possible should be.

2. Other options are buffed. This includes things that are currently underpowered, as well as things that would become underpowered unintentionally through any related nerfs. Part of this would need to include making pistol whip without haste viable to fix past transgressions.

3. Serial nerf-herders and trolls are removed from the forum. Look at all of the unreasonable, illogical posts that see light in this forum. It’s always the same small group of people ever since the game released. Remove them. No other profession forum has to put up with this kitten, trollish nerf posts on warrior and mesmer forums quickly disappear.

4. And finally, come up with a cohesive plan that will cause as little collateral damage as possible, and fix any collateral damage caused IN THE SAME PATCH, not 6 months from now. The nerf needs to affect ONLY this build, and ONLY the extreme fringe cases.

Krathalos.3461:

EasymodeX.4062:

Come on man, you’re going to see bow+gun Warrs at least as often as you see S/D+P/P thieves.

The Sword/Dagger is perfect for setting up Unload DPS from the Pistol, right? Man these CC+ weapon swap channel DPS builds sound fabulous.

You’re completely ignoring everything a thief has to give up to do it, or everything a thief already doesn’t have simply because they are a thief. All of the classes in the game can be built for instagib kills.

And none of those classes has the survivability a thief does when specced for glass, except maybe a Mesmer. A thiefs survivability comes from class mechanics, not gear or utilities to a certain extent. A Mesmer is the same. Bunker specs for guardians rely on gear and utilities, because their class mechanics are sad compared to resetting a fight completely.

If a guard cannon could reset a fight by using #5 on a weapon skill repeatedly without even needing utilities, it would be a different story yes?

Hi it’s called balance, but you’re so used to being OP you can’t see it.

NightyNight.1823:

Every proffesion has great mobility but you don’t want to use it. Name one proffesion that has no mobility options.

Name great mobility options for guardian please.

bwillb.2165:

1. Bugs are fixed. For pete’s sake, a lot of the things people complain about wouldn’t be possible if they fixed some bugs. And some things that aren’t possible should be.

2. Other options are buffed. This includes things that are currently underpowered, as well as things that would become underpowered unintentionally through any related nerfs. Part of this would need to include making pistol whip without haste viable to fix past transgressions.

3. Serial nerf-herders and trolls are removed from the forum. Look at all of the unreasonable, illogical posts that see light in this forum. It’s always the same small group of people ever since the game released. Remove them. No other profession forum has to put up with this kitten, trollish nerf posts on warrior and mesmer forums quickly disappear.

4. And finally, come up with a cohesive plan that will cause as little collateral damage as possible, and fix any collateral damage caused IN THE SAME PATCH, not 6 months from now. The nerf needs to affect ONLY this build, and ONLY the extreme fringe cases.

1. In my opinion, bugs that create class imbalances are worth being pointed out until they are fixed and should even be given a sticky thread. It consistantly keeps the topic of the bug fresh, consolidates a wide range of player feedback, and drives users to better understand (or test) the bug which can be beneficial to the Anet team and help expedite a solution patch.
2. Over/underpowered is an immeasurable description given to something based on data. Until that call has been made, skills/builds/classes can only be seen as over/under used . Collecting data takes time and requires a real environment (release) to make the best decisions. Class balance patches have (and continue to) spread the changes over a series. They’re re-measuring the outcomes. This is how you properly execute balance.
3. Unless they make forum ‘code of conduct’ infractions, they’re free to speak (type) their mind. It does add to clutter and allows bigotry but this is the internet. There’s tons of uselessness everywhere. Personally, I’d rather have it that way. Better to sift through loud opinions and nonsense than to have a forceful hand steering everyone towards its own goals.
4. See my response to #2. + They only want to fix what needs to be, and they try not to break anything in the process. The question is, how long does it take for you to find out what has worked and what hasn’t? How long will the mindless crying go on from patch day? How many people will refuse to continue playing ‘X’ class/build or switch to ‘Y’ class/build and lower the necessary incoming information on what has changed?

Just a few quick things to keep in mind going forward (not directed at bwillb specifically):

• “Hard” is not the same as “Broken”
• A good player is not made from one class
• Resourceful feedback is more helpful than opinionated bickering
• Constant arguing with a troll makes you a troll; you obviously speak the same language

Let’s unit, and rally together on classes that really REALLY need a change and are VERY overpowered.

Over/underpowered is an immeasurable description given to something based on data. Until that call has been made, skills/builds/classes can only be seen as over/under used . Collecting data takes time and requires a real environment (release) to make the best decisions. Class balance patches have (and continue to) spread the changes over a series. They’re re-measuring the outcomes. This is how you properly execute balance.

No, that’s not how you properly execute balance. That’s how a lot of companies do it, but that’s not the proper way. With proper usage of mathematics you can predict quite well what the relative power of different options are. It is a ridiculously bad idea to use the “fire blindly and hope you hit something” approach to balance. That’s why World of Warcraft is still in a terrible state of balance 8 years later. Theorycrafters can calculate exactly how well something will do before it’s available to play, if they have access to all relevant variables in the game code. If Arenanet can’t, they need to hire someone who can.

Kirito.8796:

The ones that dont think it needs a nerf are the ones that use it period. I (being a thief myself) have full carrion exotic armour, green exotic trinkets and traits are 0/0/30/25/15. I got hit for a 4.5k steal, 5k cloak n dagger then an 11k bs, no class should be able to pull off 20k dmg in little over a second. Its not only bad for the one who’s hit but also the one whos using it. All they do is look for squishy players, execute it then either die from aoe or run away and reset, they are such a burden in most team fights either being dead or attacking the most useless players.

Edit: I had 20k health and was fully traited into toughness at the time.

You’re a thief and you can’t counter it? It is the easiest thing to counter as a thief. As soon as he get’s in range either use your steal to catch him off guard, or blinding powder or thieves guild

In Brutal honesty, the thing that would probably fix most of these builds is added some more to the ini cost of Heartseeker. All they do is burst their damage and then heartseeker spam. It’s not too bad to counter but the fact that HS is so good at what it does for such a small cost really won’t help with calming the whiners.

“You’re a thief and you can’t counter it? It is the easiest thing to counter as a thief. As soon as he get’s in range either use your steal to catch him off guard, or blinding powder or thieves guild”

Not to mention that you can instantly shadow step 1200 units away, and then back again.

I play sPvP, where things tend to be fully equalized, and have never had problems fighting BS thieves. Not on necro/warrior/thief/ele/guardian. I play BS thief too.

So the argument from this dude is…… BS thieves are powerful, but die super easily so they’re a huge burden. Such a burden that they’re almost not worth playing in WvW.

Yes, let’s nerf it.

Just took over 21000 damage from 3 attacks, didn’t even see the thief until they had finished the stomp. Seems fine.

I made a ranger with 3300 armor and still get back stabbed for 8k+ which is half my hp in one hit.

My ele has 2400 armor and gets hit for 10k+(im not even glass spec, if I was would of been 1 shot for sure.), throw up lighting shield hes stunned in stealth still, but still gets off his other attacks to kill me all in stealth.

subcrazy.1098:

My ele has 2400 armor and gets hit for 10k+(im not even glass spec, if I was would of been 1 shot for sure.), throw up lighting shield hes stunned in stealth still, but still gets off his other attacks to kill me all in stealth.

Attacking breaks stealth. You’re running into the rendering issues which everyone agrees need to be fixed.