Change Wish List

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

So…Kind of like an evil/good/decent-twin brother of the “Nerf Wish list”, following the same format.
Now what kind of “changes” do I mean? Well, well rounded ones. And by that I mean changes the promote balance, these can include justified nerfs and buffs, which I’m sure everyone can differentiate between a “justified nerf” and a “cry to make it easier for me”. If you want to post the latter types of nerfs, please do it in the other list as that’s what it’s mostly suited for. This list can again include justified buffs, and please don’t post “make me moar OP please” buffs (Example: buffing backstab to do AoE damage on hit – no, that’s stupid, you don’t win and don’t try again).
These can be “bug” fixes (Hard to catch…), these can be complete over-hauls of traits, deletion of traits, addition of traits, anything legitimate… BUT not a “cry” for a buff/nerf.
Due to the nature of this list, changes proposed in one (unless explicitly stated otherwise) post will be grouped together, and thus considered to be as a bigger change composed of different parts/changes. Posts with one change (unless explicitly stated that it’s continuation…) will be considered as a change on their own. Grouping should allow you to make more “bigger” changes, where as single post changes will allow you to make smaller changes.

Here’s the format and an example of a post (same as in the other list, but a bit more):


Originally by: Dual.8953 – (Optional)

Pre-text: These numerous changes hopefully provide a way to counter thieves in stealth… Blah blah blah … – (Optional. Only needed for grouped posts, to set a bit of context. Don’t make it too lengthy. This example isn’t part of a group)

What: Stealth Attacks – (Mandatory. Something relavent)
Type: Counter play improvement – (Optional, can be “improvement”, "can be “reduction”, can be “Group A” for grouping posts… so on)
Suggestion: What if they gave stealth skills a visible particle effect, while letting the Thief remain stealthed? No like a full reveal, just say their knife glows for the strike. Maybe do that for all attack skills from stealth. – (Mandatory. Directly from the “author”, or legitmately paraphrased)
Why: Currently there’s no way to detect that you’ve been “hit” by a thief that’s in stealth. – (Mandatory. Directly from the “author”, or legitmately paraphrased/added)
Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Random-backstab-idea(Opitional, though suggested. Thread with more information on this change.)


So yeah, take it away ladies/guys/beings(confused? unsure? Call 572-223-1111)!
Thanks NinjaEd for the suggestion to create this thread.
Hopefully things go well here.
Please, duke it out in other threads… possibly the ones linked, if you have “issues” you wish to express. Basically, try not to start a flame war… no one likes it’s squeals.

Oh yeah, I hope you guys contribute and help me maintain this thread, as I’ve reach the point where I’m only allowed to post 1 every hour… And that has nothing to do with me lashing out on people >.>… nope… not at all…

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Juston.6817

Juston.6817

What: death blossom
Why: i like the mechanic of this skill, but its evade is tooo unreliable and the weapon set has nothing to do with it. Add a new weapon set (condition melee) and move death blossom to this set. Make the evade last a bit longer. Add for d/d a direct damage cleave attack.

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

I gave some pretty detailed feedback on traits here.

Most of it is still relevant as the patch really didn’t change much about our issues.

Most pertinent imo is fixing Last Refuge, adding Condition Removal alternatives other than Shadow’s Embrace and reworking some of the dull +X% damage traits that are far too prominent, especially in the Deadly Arts tree.

(edited by Dee Jay.2460)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

I gave some pretty detailed feedback on traits here.

Most of it is still relevant as the patch really didn’t change much about our issues.

Most pertinent imo is fixing Last Refuge, adding Condition Removal alternatives to Shadow’s Embrace and reworking some of the dull +X% damage traits that are far too prominent, especially in the Deadly Arts tree.

Thanks, I will “digest” it into this thread, when my post is off CD (1h)… and given time in the real world…
There’s a couple of large threads that need digesting (yours and ninja’s for example) that would contribute to this thread…
I guess in contrast (and hopefully seen in nerf wish list too), the changes posted/reposted here are kind of “bite” size pieces, possibly linking back to a larger meal so to say… as well as ofc, if people do use it for multiple grouped changes….

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

What: Change Sneak Attacks

Type: Class improvement

Suggestion: Remove the stealth requirement and make sneak attacks available relative to the target’s position. Example, change Dagger #1 to Backstab when we attack the target from side or behind. I’ve suggested this before and I’m suggesting this again.

Why: It’s called “sneak” attacks and not “stealth” attacks. Also to open many more builds that relies on tactical positioning rather than on stealth. Stealth will still exist but will no longer be a requirement to access sneak attacks.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: RedSpectrum.1975

RedSpectrum.1975

What: F1-4
Type: Class Design Change
Suggestion: Have f1 remain steal and f2 become the stolen item, if steal is used again, that item will be replaced. F3 and f4 will be venoms and traps respectively. When, say for instance, f3 is picked, our utilities will change to types of venoms and if f4 is pressed, they will change to traps. To go back to regular utilities, simply press that f key again.

Why: Anet claims this class is good in 1v1, utilizes venoms, and makes use of traps. I can say a vast majority only do one of these, and it’s not venoms or traps. So this would be a neat way to make use of what the thief was meant to be.

Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Ghostwolf.9863

Ghostwolf.9863

Originally by: Bowflex.4502

What: Forced Stealth
Suggestion: Right click buffs like stealth to remove them.
Why: You are unable to contest/cap or obtain buffs while in stealth so this would be an Improvement to stealth in sPvP for builds that relies more on it as well as thieves/allies who are unable to leave stealth when they need to.
Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Suggestion-removing-buffs-or-stealth/first#post3945846

Thief, Engineer, Mesmer – Seafarer’s Rest (EU)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

What: death blossom
Why: i like the mechanic of this skill, but its evade is tooo unreliable and the weapon set has nothing to do with it. Add a new weapon set (condition melee) and move death blossom to this set. Make the evade last a bit longer. Add for d/d a direct damage cleave attack.

Just a bit of re-formating…

What: death blossom
Suggestion: Add a new weapon set (condition melee) and move death blossom to this set. Make the evade last a bit longer. Add for d/d a direct damage cleave attack.
Why: I like the mechanic of this skill, but its evade is tooo unreliable and the weapon set has nothing to do with it.


So far so good guys! Keep it up!
Currently studying for my last exam.


PS
Addition/Deletion/Modification of weapon sets are welcome…. Don’t go too ham on the details, link back to a thread if there is more to it.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Scribbles.3974

Scribbles.3974

what: invegorating precision
suggestion: let the % healing scale off of healing power
why: youve already nerfed most of the healing things so we can only get 1-2 while still using a usable build (you can try and spec for all the healig things, but the spec would not be as solid as something else) why not let the people that go glassy get a decent grandmaster trait that allows them to actually survive instead of wasting a slot and looking dumb.

Dark Lotusblossom – 80 Thief
Bedroom Knights. [Sock]
Sea of Sorrows

(edited by Scribbles.3974)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

@Dee Jay

I’ve start to re-compile your post to meet the format of this one. There’s a silent problem… As you’ve titled “Comprehensive Thief feedback”, it does just that “feedback”… meaning there’s no suggestions for changes, rather pointers on what needs to change… but not how or into what. I hope you get what I’m saying, and by no means am I putting down your post as it is valuable feedback. I just can’t write in "Suggestion"s for you on every trait that you’ve pointed out needing change. I’ve yet to read the rest of the posts in that thread. I can either, proceed with re-compiling it, or stop and allow you to do it/post it here. When and if I proceed with the re-compiling, I would like you to look over it and possibly modify it/add the suggestions… (Copy-paste, edit, repost… and then i will delete my re-compiled work).

:D
I’m back guys (after a few days)…

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

PART 1 OF 4

Originally by: NinjaEd.3946

Pre-text: These changes aim to satisfy both parties, those that play the thief and those that play against them. Many traits have 1 sided bonuses, some are nearly essential for builds but are very spread out, some are weak, Thief’s support is also limited. Weapon skills lack dimished returns (DR) on pressing 1 skill repeatedly. Stealth provides too much, while being out-of stealth provides very little. Steal is incredibly strong when spec’ed for, lousy when not. Trait changes aim to change diversity.

What: Weapon skills
Type: Initative change, Option A (Choice between option A or B )
Suggestion: Add a counter for all weapon skills. Repeated use of the same skill puts a debuff that increases the initiative cost of that skill by 1, capping at +3 initiative.This debuff is reset after 1.5 seconds or after using another weapon skill other than auto attack.This would apply to skills with separate parts such as IR and LS. In addition, revert some previous nerfs to weapon skills that were either reduced in effect or had their cost increased.
Why: Reduces skill spamming by introducing DR.

What: Weapon skills
Type: Initative change, Option B (Choice between option A or B )
Suggestion: Implement reduced effects for repeated uses of the same skill. If the skill is meant for direct damage, have it deal reduced direct damage each consecutive use. If the skill is meant to apply a condition, have its duration reduced. This affect would
also stack up to 3 times, each stack reducing the effect by 25% so using the same skill 4 times would leave the 4th cast with a 25% condition duration.
Why: Reduces skill spamming by introducing DR.

What: Steal
Type: Machinic/Passive modification, inconjuction with “Infiltrator’s Signet” change
Suggestion: Regenerate 1 initiative every 10 seconds when in combat. Same active(removes the passive initiative regen, naturally).
Why: Boosts untraited steal and having it open.

What: Infiltrator’s Signet
Type: Passive modification, inconjuction with “Steal” change
Suggestion: Gain 1 initiative when targeted by a disable (3 sec ICD). Same active.
Why: Boosts untraited steal, but balance out the init regen.

What: Back fighting
Type: DA tree, Trait removal, Trait change.
Suggestion: Could change to “[Deep Wound]” When revealed, your condition duration is increased (20%).
Why: Why would you spec for being downed? Scrap trait.

What: Corrosive Traps and Trap Master
Type: DA tree, Trait merge
Suggestion: [Corrosive traps], merge [Trap master] into this.
Why: N/A

What: Venomous Strength
Type: DA tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Bump might stacks to 3. If need be, reduce duration of might
Why: N/A

What: Potent poison
Type: DA tree, Trait buff
Suggestion: Bump to 50%
Why: With the nerf to choking gas, there is no reason why an adept trait shouldn’t have some kick for thief but warrior gets 50% bleed duration in a condition trait line for the same investment (and bleeds hurt a lot more since they stack intensity).

What: Improvisation
Type: DA tree, Trait change, Trait relocation
Suggestion: Change effect to “Recharge 1 utility skill on cooldown (random for multiple skills) on steal. 10% damage while holding a stolen skill.” Move to GM traits.
Why: If used properly, you can use only 1 utility skill and recharge it on a successful steal effectively doubling the cast.

What: Dagger training
Type: DA tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Add additional effect," lower initiative cost of off-hand dagger skills by 1".
Why: N/A

Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Improving-thief

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

PART 2 OF 4

Originally by: NinjaEd.3946

What: Combined Training
Type: DA/CS tree, Trait replacement, Trait Addition
Suggestion: [Combined Training] Replace [Combo critical chance] from CS. New trait [Ice drake venom], venom strikes apply chill (1 second).
Why: N/A

What: Residual venoms
Type: DA tree, Trait relocation
Suggestion: Move to master traits. Maintains venom share potential while buffing non-venom share users for using venoms.
Why: Being a master trait, you can’t reduce the recharge (quick venoms) and get extra strikes without a full 30 investment, but a buff to improvisation opens up potential choices for venom share and non-venom share (condi using improvisation to stack a venom).

What: Ice drake venom
Type: DA tree, Trait rework
Suggestion: Ice Drake Venom changed to Karka Venom. Karka Venom – Transfer 1 condition to your foe on your next 2 attacks. Behaves like any other venom, 45 second base cool down, no cast time.
Why: Grant venom share defensive support, and with redone traits an alternative to condition clearing.

What: Revealed Training
Type: DA tree, Trait buff
Suggestion: Bump power amount to 300.
Why: This effect does not work on stealth attacks, so that leads to pw or hs. Since spamming hs often leads to self inflicted death, you’re left with pw which s/p has very limited access to stealth making it difficult to abuse. You’re also going into a trait line more dedicated to venoms and condition application, losing precious ferocity and precision unless you’re 100% zerker which in that case you die with a flick of the wrist.

What: Keen observer
Type: CS tree, Trait buff
Suggestion: Either bump % crit chance or slightly lower the parameters to 80%, something suitable for a minor adept trait to not be too strong.
Why: 90% health especially on a power thief, is rather hard to maintain.

What: Furious Retaliation
Type: CS tree, Trait change
Suggestion: Change functionality to “Grant allies fury when you hit a foe below 50% health.” Same duration, same ICD, radius of effect 300 units.
Why:
N/A

What: Concealed Defeat
Type: CS tree, Trait change
Suggestion: Change from smoke screen to shadow refuge, adding an ICD of 60 seconds. Could change to only apply 2 pulses instead of 4.
Why: I like this trait in some dungeons but it does little in concealing your demise against melee enemies.

What: Pistol Mastery and Ankle Shots
Type: CS tree, Trait merge, Trait relocation
Suggestion: [Pistol Mastery] Merge [Ankle Shots] into this. Move to master traits.
Why: N/A

What: Combo Critical Chance
Type: CS tree, Trait deletion, Trait buff
Suggestion: Scraped for combined training. Increase combo skill damage to 7%.
Why: Reason being 5% crit chance for a precision trait line seems a little pointless, and low to begin with.

What: Heavy Rounds
Type: CS tree, Trait replacement
Suggestion: Replacement for ankle shots as an adept trait. Pistol shots have a chance to be unblockable. 15% chance. In addition, pistol shots cannot be reflected (can still be destroyed by walls and skills like mirror). Could have non-reflection or % unblockable, doesn’t have to be both since it is an adept trait.
Why: Replaces a trait.

What: Hidden Killer
Type: CS tree, Trait change
Suggestion: Change functionality to apply to stealth attacks (meaning sneak attack will crit each shot).
Why: N/A

What: Invigorating Precision
Type: CS tree, Trait modification.
Suggestion: 15% for single target skills, 7% for AoE skills OR increase by 1% for every 100 healing power. 1 or the other, obviously not both.
Why: N/A

Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Improving-thief

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

PART 3 OF 4

Originally by: NinjaEd.3946

What: Last Refuge
Type: SA tree, Trait replacement, Trait deletion
Suggestion: Scrap it, burn it, toss it into a wood chipper. Place [Cloaked in shadows] In its place.
Why: N/A (Though it is… bad)

What: Master of Deception
Type: SA tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Add additional effect,“Using a deception skill gains endurance (15?)”.
Why: N/A

What: Slowed pulse .
Type: SA tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Lower the ICD to 10 seconds, the regen duration to 5 seconds, and proc off poison as well.
Why: N/A

What: Shadow Protector
Type: SA tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Remove the functionality, “Does not apply if ally already has stealth”, and add an ICD of 10 seconds.
Why: N/A

What: Cloaked in Shadows
Type: SA tree, Trait replacement
Suggestion: Replace with Vigorous Venoms. Vigorous Venoms: Gain healing power based on the number of active venom strikes (based on the highest number of unique venom, does not tally up all venom attacks so spider + skale will not equal 8 stacks) Healing power per venom (40, level / 2).
Why: Since this is the new minor adept trait, something new to replace it, preferable for non-stealth users (aka venom share).

What: Power Shots
Type: SA tree, Trait buff
Suggestion: Add additional effect, “Increase range by 100”.
Why: Not sure what justification there is to not granting thief a 1200 range weapon but atleast something would be nice for a master trait. Believe it or not, 300 units is a pretty big difference at ranged.

What: Patience
Type: SA tree, Trait change
Suggestion: Change functionality to “Recharge endurance quicker while in stealth”. 5 additional endurance every second in stealth(essentially in-stealth vigor).
Why: Easily out done by infusion of shadow in the short term, promotes perma stealth for long term which is not healthy.

What: Hidden Assassin
Type: SA tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Change functionality to apply to allies you stealth as well.
Why: N/A

What: Assassin’s Retreat
Type: Acro tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Change functionality to grant 5 seconds of vigor on kill instead.
Why: Swiftness on kill, we already see how many people are abusing the superior sigil of speed, this must be broken! Either you get vigor from active combat(vigorous recovery)or you get it from focus firing.

What: Master Trapper
Type: Acro tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Change functionality to, “Trap skills cause AoE reveal to enemies when triggered”. Reveal duration 4 seconds. Number of targets 20. Radius of effect 360 units.
Why: Nice for Mesmer but mainly a trait for zerg play in wvw to counter enemy veil or mass invis if used well. Traps aren’t generally attractive anyways.

What: Fleet Shadow
Type: Acro tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Add additional effect, " Move 50% faster and ignore cripple and chill while in stealth". This does not remove the cd effect of chill or remove the conditions, just when in stealth you ignore it’s movement impairing effects. Does not work against immobilize.
Why: N/A

What: Fleet of Foot
Type: Acro tree, Trait modification, Trait relocation
Suggestion: Remove a condition on dodging. 50 endurance removes 1 condition. Move to GM traits.
Why: N/A

Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Improving-thief

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

PART 4 OF 4

Originally by: NinjaEd.3946

What: Hard to Catch
Type: Acro tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Change functionality to grant stability for 4 seconds with the shadow step to actually break stun on disable OR to shadow step away and grant stealth for 3 seconds on disable. Bump ICD to 45 or 60 seconds if need be.
Why: N/A (But… hard to catch is obiviously a bad trait at the moment… anyone that knows about this trait, should whole-heartedly welcome any change to it, even it’s deletion shouldn’t be frowned upon by any)

What: Assassin’s Equilibrium
Type: Acro tree, Trait relocation
Suggestion: Move to Master trait.
Why: Simply put, not worthy of a GM trait even with high BD. In the evasive trait line, it’d be better to dodge the disabling effect and any other conditions/damage attached to it than to reveal yourself and eat that attack.

What: Assasssin’s Reward
Type: Acro tree
Suggestion: Increase healing power scale from .05 to .1.
Why: Give a purpose to healing power gear for thief. SA grants healing power on its own so the heals from it are naturally more powerful with a lesser effort. To make use of AR, you have to spend initiative and get it back just as fast which I like aggressive healing but it’s gata compete with its neighbor as a defensive trait line on top of being a GM trait.

What: Instinctual response
Type: Trickery tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Change functionality to “Blind nearby foes when disabled”. Blind duration 3 seconds, ICD 10 seconds, Radius of effect 120 units.
Why: N/A

What: Long Reach
Type: Trickery tree, Trait buff
Suggestion: Add additional effect, “unblockable”.
Why: N/A

What: Trickster
Type: Trickery tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Additional effects depending on the trick casted. (Haste: affects cooldown recharges)(RFI: Removes revealed)(Scorpion Wire: If pulled, the enemy loses 1 boon)(Caltrops: Invisible, applies to uncatchable as well).
Why: N/A

What: Initial strike
Type: Trickery tree, Trait modification
Suggestion: Change to every 3rd basic attack gain 1 initiative. ICD 1 second. (3rd hit, wait 1 second, counter starts again).
Why: N/A

Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Improving-thief


@NinjaEd

Some of the traits/changes I couldn’t clearly put down “why”. Feel free, to copy-paste, edit, re-post, and i will delete my version.

This is also a great example of “Grouped” changes.


@Burnfall

Thanks man for moving your post.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Finally I am off of this kitten suspension. HERE WE GO!!! >:D

Instead of doing the whole copy/paste template, I am going to just list them because I have limited writing space and an hour long flood control.


Venoms
Passive: Inflict X(Y seconds) every Z attacks.
Active: Place corresponding combo field at player’s feet that causes X(1s) every pulse.

Why: Because venoms completely suck outside of venomshare, there are way too many traits for one utility (specially since that utility sucks) and it adds to the pidgeonholing this class is suffering from.

Hard To Catch
Stun Breaker. Shadowsteps away from all hostiles.

Why: Arguably the worst trait in the game if not the worst. It does not break stun in addition to the chance that you won’t move or get sent into the enemy further (because of RNG shadowstepping).

Fleet of Foot
Removes 1 condition on dodge. No cooldown.

Why: Because it would open up less stealth intensive builds and thus increase diversity drastically.

Every 5% trait
Damage boosted to 10%. Gains these extra abilities:
- Power Shots: Short Bow and Harpoon Gun attacks 33% chance to cause Cripple(2s) on hit. 5s CD
- Dagger Training: 10% chance on crit to gain 1 initiative.
- Combined Training: 10% chance on crit to gain 1 initiative.

Why: Because 5% is nothing. That’s 50 points of damage on a power build. You are scrapping utility for 50 points of damage. Seriously…

Assassin’s Reward, Potent Poison, Venomous Strength, Leeching Venoms, Last Refuge
Remove and save space for rifle traits and traits to boost utilities like traps and tricks. :3

Why: Venom traits need to get shaved as well as buffed. Weak skills + strong and numerous traits = poor design. Also Last Refuge isn’t noob friendly.

Traps
Now have charges that places the traps on cooldown once charges are used up. Kinda like mantras.

Why: Because nobody uses traps outside of Shadow Trap. -20% CD does not make me want to use traps because they still have too high of a CD after the fact.

Master Trapper
Switch with Flanking Strikes. Traps have an extra charge.

Why: Because ^

Quick Recovery, Patience
Reduce Interval to 5 seconds.

Why: Because a 300% increase is WAY too much. The dec 10th made them near worthless.

Slowed Pulse
Removes bleeding and grants regen.

Why: 2+ bleeds cancel out the regen. “BUT IT MITIGATES BLEEDING!!” <—— My reaction.

Improvisation
Stealing recharges one utility type you currently have equiped.

Why: Cuz heavy RNG in a skill sux m’kay.

Rifle
Thieves will now have access to them.

Why: Because predator and Gift of Stealth.

k im done

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

@Zac

Any reasoning as to why those changes….
(Yeah it’s silly to ask for some… but that’s because we’re thieves…)

:D I feel your pain… I’m at 1h flood control myself… I got my forum signature back though after a while, you will too…

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

I gave some pretty detailed feedback on traits here.

Most of it is still relevant as the patch really didn’t change much about our issues.

Most pertinent imo is fixing Last Refuge, adding Condition Removal alternatives other than Shadow’s Embrace and reworking some of the dull +X% damage traits that are far too prominent, especially in the Deadly Arts tree.

I looked at that thread and it certainly covers a lot of trait issues which leads to the same builds over and over (because nothing is worth taking their place). We have a ton of potentially good utility skills and traits but they don’t all bring enough to the table. Shadow Arts is our best trait line, I mean just look at the choices you get from adept. I enjoy acrobatics and non-stealth heavy builds but I can’t blame people for abusing them from time to time.

@ Zero day, Many of the trait suggestions I gave were to pull thief out of being an overall selfish class(hidden killer, furious retaliation, etc). Some of them were to remove the 1 sided traits that didn’t offer enough to compete with other traits in their tier(dagger training, power shots, etc). Others were just strange with either RNG attached or being far to uncommon that it wasn’t something you could work off of(initial strike, improvisation, etc). Just to clarify the reasons haha, glad you went ahead to repost it all I like your format more.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

(edited by NinjaEd.3946)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

What: GM trait for acrobatics, [Blinding Wrath]
Type: Acrobatics tree, (new trait?)
Suggestion: Everytime you blind a foe, gain might for 10 seconds. No ICD.
Why: N/A (possibly to open up more heavy investment options to this trait line?)

Threads: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Idea-for-new-trait

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

(edited by NinjaEd.3946)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

What: Initiative loss on interrupt
Type: Initiative
Suggestion: Interuption removes the initiative spent on the skill. This applies to only a few skills that do not spend the initiative until after the effect takes place (pw for example).
Why: No cooldowns on weapon skills, interruption isn’t rewarded properly against thieves (on certain skills).

Threads: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Suggestion-Initiative-lost-on-Interrupt

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

NinjaEd you are starting to have idearrhea. Keep the skill floor high so we can laugh at everyone behind the cheese label they place on us.

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Just some re-formating… Feel free to copy/edit/paste this into your original to save yourself the repost/1h forum CD… :P I will remove this post after (when i “detect” the change… kinda busy atm). ;D and ofc this is a free innocent bump for the thread to get the rest involved. o.O Jesus… if i was a developer… I could write a script… that would digest these posts even further, and would be able to log them into a db/other-formats… for easier internal use… Because hey… since there’s a relatively strict formatting scheme going on (what/suggestion/why)… you can write a simple parser to parse this thread for information… * hint hint * And then… when logged into internal structure, it can be crawled, and analyzed for things… say for instance… how many times “Hard to Catch” appears in the “What”… maybe that’s a good indication of skill that’s broken if it appears one too many times…. or maybe look for keywords like Venoms or Traps…. hmmmm so many things that can be done with information….

Originally by: Zacchary.6183

What: Venoms
Suggestion:
Passive: Inflict X(Y seconds) every Z attacks.
Active: Place corresponding combo field at player’s feet that causes X(1s) every pulse.
Why: Because venoms completely suck outside of venomshare, there are way too many traits for one utility (specially since that utility sucks) and it adds to the pidgeonholing this class is suffering from.

What: Hard To Catch
Suggestion: Stun Breaker. Shadowsteps away from all hostiles.
Why: Arguably the worst trait in the game if not the worst. It does not break stun in addition to the chance that you won’t move or get sent into the enemy further (because of RNG shadowstepping).

What: Fleet of Foot
Suggestion: Removes 1 condition on dodge. No cooldown.
Why: Because it would open up less stealth intensive builds and thus increase diversity drastically.

What: Every 5% trait
Suggestion: Damage boosted to 10%. Gains these extra abilities:
– Power Shots: Short Bow and Harpoon Gun attacks 33% chance to cause Cripple(2s) on hit. 5s CD
– Dagger Training: 10% chance on crit to gain 1 initiative.
– Combined Training: 10% chance on crit to gain 1 initiative.
Why: Because 5% is nothing. That’s 50 points of damage on a power build. You are scrapping utility for 50 points of damage. Seriously…

What: Assassin’s Reward, Potent Poison, Venomous Strength, Leeching Venoms, Last Refuge
Suggestion: Remove and save space for rifle traits and traits to boost utilities like traps and tricks.
Why: Venom traits need to get shaved as well as buffed. Weak skills + strong and numerous traits = poor design. Also Last Refuge isn’t noob friendly.

What: Traps
Suggestion: Now have charges that places the traps on cooldown once charges are used up. Kinda like mantras.
Why: Because nobody uses traps outside of Shadow Trap. -20% CD does not make me want to use traps because they still have too high of a CD after the fact.

What: Master Trapper
Suggestion: Switch with Flanking Strikes. Traps have an extra charge.
Why: Because ^

What: Quick Recovery, Patience
Suggestion: Reduce Interval to 5 seconds.
Why: Because a 300% increase is WAY too much. The dec 10th made them near worthless.

What: Slowed Pulse
Suggestion: Removes bleeding and grants regen.
Why: 2+ bleeds cancel out the regen. “BUT IT MITIGATES BLEEDING!!” <—— My reaction.

What: Improvisation
Suggestion: Stealing recharges one utility type you currently have equipped.
Why: Cuz heavy RNG in a skill sux m’kay.

What: Rifle
Suggestion: Thieves will now have access to them.
Why: Because predator and Gift of Stealth.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd you are starting to have idearrhea. Keep the skill floor high so we can laugh at everyone behind the cheese label they place on us.

It outa be a nice change of pace from, “NERF TEEF!” followed by, “I don’t play much pvp”. Rather have idearrhea than pop a blood vessel in my eye from reading such misinformed kittens who paint thief on a white horse in a colonel’s uniform :/

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

What: Combo critical chance or combined training
Suggestion: scrap for a sword trait (critical chance with sword?)
Why:It just seems odd not to have one, i mean there are plenty of useless traits that can be replaced with one —-No one would mind if combined training or combo critical chance where removed for a sword trait, and it would make sense too for it to be in deadly arts or critical strikes

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Why-no-sword-trait

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Part 1/3

Pre-text: Admittedly these changes for venoms are inspired by WoW’s Rogue’s poisons. I do realize that the two classes and games are structured completed different, and to a certain extent the Rogue’s poisons are part of the attack/attack damage, while for the Thief the venoms are supplementary skills. My beef with the current venom system is that the 3 hits we get for the venom feels very thin. It’s unlikely that in a fight you would pop the venom and then cycle through 3 targets hitting them once each, what’s more than likely is you will pop a venom and stay on the target hitting him 3 or more times (not caring too much about the 2nd and 3rd stack of venoms.). Similarly with Venomous Aura, unless there’s some coordination going on in the team (a small subset of all teams), it would be lucky if the venoms hit 5 different people (assuming they spread to 5 people that are attacking 5 different people…), never mind at what times and on who. While this is a good design assuming everyone is in a very cooperative and competitive group, it’s not exactly the case on day-to-day basis, I believe only a small portion of the whole GW2 community uses the venoms for their intended design. The changes proposed should help venoms become more of a streamline tool for the thief and possibly for the party (depending on the variation of suggestions) that they’re in.
The changes will take venoms from granting 3 hits to venoms having a long (5 minutes or so) duration with markers on targets, explained bellow.
The numbers (number of stacks, healing/ratios …, cooldowns, duration…) can be changed to different numbers, they are merely meant to get a concept in place.
You can play around with the marker idea a lot, and create lots of variations, for instance consuming the marks (when the venom is popped) and granting the effect based on how many marks consumed, though this variation will not be explored.
So yeah, here goes nothing.



What: Venom buff/stacks
Type: Meta/Mechanic change.
Suggestion: Venoms no longer grant 3 hits, instead, upon using them they last for:
Variation A: 5 minutes, cooldown of 60 seconds. – The cooldown is significant for the Venomous Aura change.
Variation B: Infinite, cooldown of 1 second. – The cooldown is insignificant since Venomous Aura will be removed.
The cast time of venoms are now 3 seconds. (Better be prepared for a fight or ditch when time’s running out!)
Venoms no longer apply their effect on the target that they hit, instead they apply the venom’s marker on the target that deals no damage when applied. After a certain X amount of markers have been stacked on the target, the markers are removed and the venom’s effect is applied to the target. If the attack has been blocked/dodged, no marker is applied (since the venom didn’t get into the blood of the enemy).
The stack of markers last for 15 seconds. (Can’t exactly stall for time ), after which no effect is triggered and they are removed.
Markers cannot be removed by any skill (aside from when they are triggered).
Why: This is the change that will convert from 3 hits to duration based venoms.


What: Skelk Venom
Type: Skill Redesign.
Suggestion: Upon hitting the target, Skelk Venom Marker is applied to the target that stacks. Upon stacking 3 markers, the markers are consumed (removed), the bearer of the mark is dealt 300 damage and the thief is healed for 300 health. Now scales with condition damage.
Why: This is the new skill under the new venom change. Big buff. It’s now on-par with Signet of Malice’s passive, heals a bit less after 3 hits and deals damage (but you need to hit 3 times) and scales with condition damage! If you’re not going condition damage then they’re both relatively the same…

What: Basilisk Venom
Type: Skill Redesign.
Suggestion: Upon hitting the target, Basilisk Venom Marker is applied to the target that stacks. Upon stacking 25 markers, the markers are consumed and the bearer of the marks is turned to stone for 1.5 seconds.
Why: This is the new skill under the new venom change. Yes, it’s a buff to Basilik Venom, since a dagger attack takes about 1 second, the current cooldown of the venom is 45 seconds, while this way it’s “25”. Again the number of stacks can be changed… but considering the marks can be blocked/evaded… and their turned to stone for 1.5… and it’s an ELITE skill…

What: Devourer Venom
Type: Skill Redesign.
Suggestion: Upon hitting the target, Devourer Venom Marker is applied to the target that stacks. Upon stacking 15 markers, the markers are consumed and the bearer of the marks is immobilized for 2 seconds.
Why: This is the new skill under the new venom change. Again slight buff, due to current cooldown vs attack speed, again you can change the numbers.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Part 2/3

What: Ice Drake Venom
Type: Skill Redesign.
Suggestion: Upon hitting the target, Ice Drake Venom Marker is applied to the target that stacks. Upon stacking 15 markers, the markers are consumed and the bearer of the marks is chilled for 1 seconds.
Why: This is the new skill under the new venom change. Again slight buff, due to current cooldown vs attack speed, again you can change the numbers.

What: Spider Venom
Type: Skill Redesign.
Suggestion: Upon hitting the target, Spider Venom Marker is applied to the target that stacks. Upon stacking 15 markers, the markers are consumed and the bearer of the marks is poisoned for 6 seconds.
Why: This is the new skill under the new venom change. Again slight buff, due to current cooldown vs attack speed, again you can change the numbers. Hey! Now you have extra condition power!

What: Skale Venom
Type: Skill Redesign.
Suggestion: Upon hitting the target, Spider Venom Marker is applied to the target that stacks. Upon stacking 20 markers, the markers are consumed and the bearer of the marks is inflected with 6 seconds of vulnerability and weakness.
Why: This is the new skill under the new venom change. Again slight buff, due to current cooldown vs attack speed, again you can change the numbers.

What: <Bleeding/Blind/Burning/Confusion/Crippled/Fear/Torment> Venom (Make up a name!)
Type: Skill Creation
Suggestion: Upon hitting the target, <Condition> Venom Marker is applied to the target that stacks. Upon stacking N markers, the markers are consumed and the bearer of the marks is inflected with X seconds of <condition>.
Why: Wow, you can add more venoms to the game and give thief access to any condition! Since, hey, if we can brew/buy (metaphorically) our venoms it probably means we can get crafty with what kind of condition they apply. Wow, much improvement, so skills.

What: Improvisation
Type: Trait Modification
Suggestion: Improvisation no longer as the chance to reset venom cooldowns.
Why: Venom cooldowns are no either shorter (Variation A) or insignificant (Variation B).

What: Quick Venoms
Type: Trait Change
Suggestion: Reduces the number of markers to apply for venoms by 1.
Why: Same reason as for improvisation. Instead this can reduce the number of markers to apply. Similar effect as to what it has now but instead it’s 1 hit less.

What: Residual Venoms
Type: Trait removal
Suggestion: Trait is removed from the game.
Why: Venoms are no longer hit based.

What: Venomous Strength
Type: Trait Change, Variation A.
Suggestion: Works the same way as it does now, though only if you choose to do Variation A.
Why: No need to change it entirely if you choose Variation A.

What: Venomous Strength
Type: Trait Change, Variation B.
Suggestion: Upon triggering a stack of venom markers, 2 stacks of might is granted for 20 seconds. Internal cooldown of 5 seconds.
Why: Only if you choose Variation B. The internal cooldown is needed so that the thief doesn’t get a giant burst of might stacks (though still can if they align the stars or spread via AoE).

What: Venomous Strength
Type: Trait removal , Neither Variation A or B.
Suggestion: Trait is removed from the game.
Why: Or you can remove it from the game.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Part 3/3

What: Leeching Venoms
Type: Trait Change or Trait Removal
Suggestion:
Upon triggering a stack of venom markers, the thief is healed for 300 (scales with healing power… lol). Internal cooldown of 5 seconds.
Or
Trait is removed.
Why: You can either keep it for extra healing (read survivability) or throw it away.

What: Contagion Venoms
Type: Trait Creation
Suggestion: If a target dies with venom markers, the markers (with the number of stacks) are spread to 5 enemies. If the enemy has same venom markers on them, they get the the most markers out of the two (say the target already has 5 marks, and 7 marks are spreading, the target will now have 7 marks).
Why: Something fun you could do. Might be a bit OP, since you can spread marks with AoE and trigger with AoE.

What: Venomous Aura
Type: Trait Change, Variation A.
Suggestion: Works the same way as it does now, though only if you choose to do Variation A. The duration of venoms on allies is 15 seconds (less than the cooldown and less than the thief’s own venoms).
Why: No need to change it entirely if you choose Variation A.

What: Venomous Aura
Type: Trait Change or Trait removal, Variation B.
Suggestion: Every 30 seconds, grant 5 allies the same venoms that the thief has. The duration of venoms on allies is 15 seconds (less than the cooldown and less than the thief’s own venoms).
Or
Remove the trait.
Why: Again, something needs to change or it has to be removed if you choose Variation B.

What: Stolen items
Type: Stealing change.
Suggestion: Stolen items cannot apply venom markers.
Why: You stole a clean weapon from someone, you had no time to apply any venoms. Oh you stole and then applied the venoms to your weapons? Well you forgot to apply it to the stolen weapon you dumb thief.

What: AoE Weapon hits (Sword, cluster bomb, short bow’s #1)
Type: General change
Suggestion: AoE hits apply only 1 marker of each venom the thief has to everyone that the AoE hits.
Why: AoE hit should still apply markers, though like with exploding cluster bomb (used to stack 3 bleeds), they should only apply 1 marker.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

There you go ladies and gents… My idea of venom changes.
Also a bump to this thread, since I noticed people proposing changes… Don’t confusing them with nerfs (which should go to the big brother (heh…) thread the Nerf Wish List).

(If only I cared half as much for my school assignments… :| )

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: caveman.5840

caveman.5840

what: cleave on daggers

suggestion: change daggers back to single target

why:
1. it takes diversity from our weapon sets :’( we have a sword ya know …

2. dagger vs mesmer … forces u to stack conditions on your self

3. our only single target weapon now is pistol lol

(edited by caveman.5840)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

There you go ladies and gents… My idea of venom changes.
Also a bump to this thread, since I noticed people proposing changes… Don’t confusing them with nerfs (which should go to the big brother (heh…) thread the Nerf Wish List).

(If only I cared half as much for my school assignments… :| )

Almost forgot about this thread, lol. Nice read.

Who needs school assignments? Ace the test and call it a day like a true slacker!

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

For the venom changes, I love the marker idea but a question I have is, how long will the markers last for? Is it a separate counter for each target? Also how do you want venom share to work exactly? Is it actually changing or is it sort of a quick application that it currently is just behaves on a maker system vs x number of hits?

Lastly, do you think an inevitable effect application is balanced or do you have a countermeasure towards such a thing so that it is skillfull? By this I mean, if for X seconds all your hits apply a marker then it’s only a matter of time before something happens where as now people can negate (blind, block, evade, etc) to reduce the severity of a condition from venoms.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

For the venom changes, I love the marker idea but a question I have is, how long will the markers last for? Is it a separate counter for each target? Also how do you want venom share to work exactly? Is it actually changing or is it sort of a quick application that it currently is just behaves on a maker system vs x number of hits?

Lastly, do you think an inevitable effect application is balanced or do you have a countermeasure towards such a thing so that it is skillfull? By this I mean, if for X seconds all your hits apply a marker then it’s only a matter of time before something happens where as now people can negate (blind, block, evade, etc) to reduce the severity of a condition from venoms.

(The slacking continues!)

I mentioned that the marker stack will last 15 seconds (refreshed when a mark is applied), though this can be lowered (7-10 seconds), the idea is to keep it low so that the thief can’t stall for time with them. It is separate counter for each target, and separate counters per venom.
The venom share has been explained in the Venomous Aura part, that is depending on which variation you choose… One of the idea is that when a venom is cast (now that i think about it, the cast time should probably be lowered to 1-2 seconds.) the allies receive a lesser duration version of the venom (so on a thief the venom lasts 5 minutes, on the allies 1 minute or 30 seconds) but function the same way.
As for it’s inevitable effect application and countermeasures, there really is no need. One thing is if the marker stack duration is lowered to say 7 seconds (or even 5, I think I overshot with 15), they could disengage and wait it out. The other thing is none of the current poisons stack in intensity, just in duration, and there’s so much cleansing going around… Markers can be dodged/blocked. Further, you could even lower the duration of venoms themselves if you think it would make it more balanced. Each slot you use for venoms, possibly means you’re less mobile/stealthy/less-surviving, since you could have chosen something else.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

So each marker hit has a counter, it isn’t refreshing to 7-10 seconds each time you hit them?

So say it is 7 seconds and I hit them once, and a second later I hit them again I have a counter for 6 seconds and a 2nd counter for 7 seconds or do I have now 2 counters at 7 seconds?

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

So each marker hit has a counter, it isn’t refreshing to 7-10 seconds each time you hit them?

So say it is 7 seconds and I hit them once, and a second later I hit them again I have a counter for 6 seconds and a 2nd counter for 7 seconds or do I have now 2 counters at 7 seconds?

It does refresh each time. Say you’re using Venom A and Venom B (two separate skills on your bar).
You hit the guy once, the current markers are:
Venom A marker x1 – 7s
Venom B marker x1 – 7s
2 seconds later:
Venom A marker x1 – 5s
Venom B marker x1 – 5s
Then, still having venom A and Venom B on you you hit them again:
Venom A marker x2 – 7s
Venom B marker x2 – 7s
5 seconds later, for some reason you ran out of (5 minutes expires) Venom B/removed it:
Venom A marker x2 – 2s
Venom B marker x2 – 2s
1 second after you hit with just Venom A on you:
Venom A marker x3 – 7s
Venom B marker x2 – 1s
1 second later, hitting with just Venom A:
Venom A marker x4 – 7s

Yeah hitting the target refresh the full stack, but requires you to hit them, potentially getting close to them.
If you hit them, then stealth to regain health/stall – you only have <7 seconds to do so until full marker stack drops.

7 seconds might be too long though, possibly reduce it to 4-5. (I overshot with 15 originally by a lot I realize now).

Realistic, yeah with the 5 minute duration you will have the venoms up at all times… Though if you’re forgetful you can screw yourself mid fight… plus having a 1-2 second cast time (some choreographed move, possibly even stationary, so that theres a chance to CC you) on them means they’re not exactly intended to be applied mid fight.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

In that case I’d say the 4 second duration would be better given its up all the time. I like the preparation idea though, gives it some planning but for how long it lasts it should be a bit harder to apply. Especially for quick aa attacks even if they would only apply them once, dagger is really quick and imagine sneak attack O.o

TBh however even with the amount of timers it would add, I’d say each attack having a separate counter on each stack because if someone bursts you with a ton of stacks and you see them getting up, you can put up your defenses to get those stacks to wear off. That way there is atleast some counter towards such venoms.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

In that case I’d say the 4 second duration would be better given its up all the time. I like the preparation idea though, gives it some planning but for how long it lasts it should be a bit harder to apply. Especially for quick aa attacks even if they would only apply them once, dagger is really quick and imagine sneak attack O.o

TBh however even with the amount of timers it would add, I’d say each attack having a separate counter on each stack because if someone bursts you with a ton of stacks and you see them getting up, you can put up your defenses to get those stacks to wear off. That way there is atleast some counter towards such venoms.

That too. Might even need to increase the cast time 2-3 seconds of venoms… it’s meant more for preparing (say for an ambush) before a fight and giving the allies venoms, then mid-fight re-application or in a zerg vs zerg before the zergs collide you would give venoms, maybe buff venomous aura at that point to give 10 people and a longer range, I’m sure you will get commanders on TS going “Might up! Venoms up! GOOOO”.
Though if you have 2-3 seconds mid fight, you might be urged to give venoms – which will mean you have to be careful for those few seconds as someone could potentially catch you off guard. (Actually gives me a good idea to drop stealth/apply revealed if re-applying venoms)

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

In that case I’d say the 4 second duration would be better given its up all the time. I like the preparation idea though, gives it some planning but for how long it lasts it should be a bit harder to apply. Especially for quick aa attacks even if they would only apply them once, dagger is really quick and imagine sneak attack O.o

TBh however even with the amount of timers it would add, I’d say each attack having a separate counter on each stack because if someone bursts you with a ton of stacks and you see them getting up, you can put up your defenses to get those stacks to wear off. That way there is atleast some counter towards such venoms.

That too. Might even need to increase the cast time 2-3 seconds of venoms… it’s meant more for preparing (say for an ambush) before a fight and giving the allies venoms, then mid-fight re-application or in a zerg vs zerg before the zergs collide you would give venoms, maybe buff venomous aura at that point to give 10 people and a longer range, I’m sure you will get commanders on TS going “Might up! Venoms up! GOOOO”.
Though if you have 2-3 seconds mid fight, you might be urged to give venoms – which will mean you have to be careful for those few seconds as someone could potentially catch you off guard. (Actually gives me a good idea to drop stealth/apply revealed if re-applying venoms)

The amount of healing you’d be able to dish out would be quite impressive especially if each target has their own stacks and you have rapid attacks. Leeching venoms is actually quite good on certain spec I made awhile back where I just went strict power and healing power with vit/toughness in the mix. The dmg portion of leeching venoms goes up pretty well with might stacking and overall high power so you’re adding well over 500 damage per venom hit to your group in addition to the healing.

Even so, I always felt like I was a utility bot where I wasn’t providing sustainable support like an ele or engineer could.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

In that case I’d say the 4 second duration would be better given its up all the time. I like the preparation idea though, gives it some planning but for how long it lasts it should be a bit harder to apply. Especially for quick aa attacks even if they would only apply them once, dagger is really quick and imagine sneak attack O.o

TBh however even with the amount of timers it would add, I’d say each attack having a separate counter on each stack because if someone bursts you with a ton of stacks and you see them getting up, you can put up your defenses to get those stacks to wear off. That way there is atleast some counter towards such venoms.

That too. Might even need to increase the cast time 2-3 seconds of venoms… it’s meant more for preparing (say for an ambush) before a fight and giving the allies venoms, then mid-fight re-application or in a zerg vs zerg before the zergs collide you would give venoms, maybe buff venomous aura at that point to give 10 people and a longer range, I’m sure you will get commanders on TS going “Might up! Venoms up! GOOOO”.
Though if you have 2-3 seconds mid fight, you might be urged to give venoms – which will mean you have to be careful for those few seconds as someone could potentially catch you off guard. (Actually gives me a good idea to drop stealth/apply revealed if re-applying venoms)

The amount of healing you’d be able to dish out would be quite impressive especially if each target has their own stacks and you have rapid attacks. Leeching venoms is actually quite good on certain spec I made awhile back where I just went strict power and healing power with vit/toughness in the mix. The dmg portion of leeching venoms goes up pretty well with might stacking and overall high power so you’re adding well over 500 damage per venom hit to your group in addition to the healing.

Even so, I always felt like I was a utility bot where I wasn’t providing sustainable support like an ele or engineer could.

Well one intention is to make venoms meaningful together in their own build. For instance when you’re going some sort of stealthy burst/power build, chances are you will take hide in shadows. It wouldn’t make too much sense taking Skelk venom, because at that point it heals less than a signet of malice after 3 hits, sure it still heals and does damage – but it’s after 3 hits, and it’s less than SoM and it doesn’t have an active for a quick heal. While when you’re going condition damage and venoms it would make more sense to take the skelk venom at that point. Since at that point you will have at least 2 venom skills (1 being healing) it’s less likely you will have a lot of stealth to help control the damage you take, so the heal and the venom that’s replacing a possible stealth should give some sort of survivability to the thief, and that is skelk venom’s healing scaling with the condition damage that you’re build for anyways… So it could be a stealth-less condition build, which means the opponent should have more than enough time to melt you if the can (press the right buttons).

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

I’d say leave skelk as a power siphon skill rather than have it scale off condition power and heres why.

Scaling generally pushes a particular skill or trait to either be an investment or a base value that you work well with. For example, you don’t need to invest a whole lot of healing power to make use of the healing from mug or monk’s focus. If you put in a percentage scale off a rather low number (condition damage doesn’t get as high as power can since condition damage starts at 0) you either make it underwhelming like invigorating precision or you make it too strong to where it’s free damage for more stealth based builds who can already disengage quite well. End result is more annoying mechanics on already annoying builds. Primarily condition builds that can heal for a ton, which are well known nuisances.

With power scaling, it goes with either power offense which has balanced weaknesses or it goes towards a support role (pvt, or clerics, or zealot even) which thief needs and is also meant to be harder to take down due to their sustainability.

Healing/condi builds need to be toned down, so I’d say have it scale with power to avoid more monstrosities until an appropriate solution can be devised without completely nerfing such builds.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

It could be just flat/not-scaled, bump it to 400 instead of 300. Or it could scale off armor… (dire gear…). I want to say scale it off of precision (all venoms), to potentially have rabid/rampage gear become interesting… but then zerker would still be better .

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

I was thinking of a couple of alternatives for skelk venom seeing as how the current design is too much in too short of a time and this alternative is basically a lesser SoM with the possibility of being for your group.

Non-boon related regen is already a reality, so to stick with how skelk’s theme is without giving a ridiculous regeneration duration, it could go something along the lines of.

[Skelk Venom] (lasts 15 seconds upon preparation, followed by a 15 second cooldown upon expiration)Each hit adds a marker, after a target reaches 3(?) markers they are dealt minor damage and you regenerate health for a short time.
-Damage dealt ~300(0.08 power coefficient)
-Regeneration ~380(0.18 healing power coefficient) per second
-Regeneration duration 3 seconds.
-Regeneration duration does not stack, it will only refresh if you reach 8 markers on a target
(with a preparation time frame and the healing being done per second rather than hit, the actual healing both short and long term isn’t all that much. With 1,100 healing power it gets to about 8,670 over 15 seconds assuming 100% uptime )

Option B;

[Skelk venom]- (Venom lasts 15 seconds, followed by a 30 second cooldown upon expiration). Each hit applies a marker, upon reaching 10 stacks foes will be siphoned every hit for 5 seconds after which they cannot be effected by skelk venom for 30 seconds.
-Damage dealt ~300(0.02 power coefficient)
-Healing amount equals damage dealt.
(A tide turner, primarily aimed for venom share with AoE and/or focus fire prioritization. Low uptime with a short window, either focuses on rapid attacks or group attacks to make use of.)

Option C;

[Skelk Venom](passive venom application based off of other venoms being active). Venom strikes will heal you when they are applied (marker activates).
-Damage dealt ~320(.001 power coefficient)
-Healing ~450(0.35 healing power coefficient)
-venom still has a preparation time however it lasts indefinitely. Reason being is that while it is active, venom markers take an additional 33%(rounded up) hits to trigger. Hitting this venom while it is active will remove the effect and return venom trigger numbers to normal.
-no cooldown, only has a preparation time.
(this adds an effect to all venom marker effects however it makes them harder to apply. With such a requirement it could be safe to have venom markers lasts ~5 seconds so that heavy offense isn’t a requirement for all venom skills to be noticeable. Healing is high due to numerous draw backs of venom functionality.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Might be pain in the kitten to implement those ideas, aside from A.
I like option A the best out the three, and B the least.

:/ Goes to show though, how the marker idea is flexible/versatile over pop for 3 hits and CD of 45 seconds.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: yolo swaggins.2570

yolo swaggins.2570

I am going to post an oldie but goodie.

Zacharry’s List of Changes

Now I know that he already posted something like this on here but the way he listed it is well written. I also like most of the ideas however his venoms could use a little tweaking.

By the way he also linked some of his other ideas in that thread. I will list them here for clarification.

Offhand Sword

Rifle

Liaison for [Teef]
“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta

(edited by yolo swaggins.2570)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

I am going to post an oldie but goodie.

Zacharry’s List of Changes

Now I know that he already posted something like this on here but the way he listed it is well written. I also like most of the ideas however his venoms could use a little tweaking.

By the way he also linked some of his other ideas in that thread. I will list them here for clarification.

Offhand Sword

Rifle

Yeah he posted similar changes above and I’ve tried to re-compile them into this thread’s format. But was too overburdened at that time.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: yolo swaggins.2570

yolo swaggins.2570

I am going to post an oldie but goodie.

Zacharry’s List of Changes

Now I know that he already posted something like this on here but the way he listed it is well written. I also like most of the ideas however his venoms could use a little tweaking.

By the way he also linked some of his other ideas in that thread. I will list them here for clarification.

Offhand Sword

Rifle

Yeah he posted similar changes above and I’ve tried to re-compile them into this thread’s format. But was too overburdened at that time.

I bet lol. He did give you alot to work with.

Liaison for [Teef]
“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Achey.3612

Achey.3612

What: Scorpion Wire

Type: buff

Suggestion: make it unblockable

Why?: it’s utility is hindered by the fact that its easy to avoid because it’s slow, everything gets in the way, and on top of that it’s buggy… sometimes i feel like even allies can block it’s pathing. why? you can shoot through allies but scorpion wire can’t? Scorpion wire would be a little better if it were unblockable. or at least give it some bleed…. or poison OR TORMENT…. otherwise… why is it called SCORPION wire, other than the fact that it’s probably named after a certain yellow and black ninja -cough-

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

hooma.9642 has requested that I would post, for him, his changes up on one of my lists, so here they are. He’s open for feedback and will probably PM you directly – he’s perma-banned from the forums .

There are quite a bit of nerfs at first, there are buffs to, so don’t jump the gun early.
And I would retract the chill along with the higher initiative cost on all skills nerf/change if I was him, that’s a bit too harsh.

I guess the reason I choose to post it in the Change Wish List as opposed to the Nerf Wish List is: he seemed to have thought at least a little about buff and trying to get the thief a little less stealth dependent. Pretty sure these changes are more of a nerf in the end, but he tried (at least from my perspective) to bring it out of stealth/teleporting style into stealthless with the buffs/nerfs.


Part 1/3

Originally by: hooma.9642

Pre-text:
lets face it. thief is the ultimate predator in pvp. a perfect designed roamer. fastest classes thx to z-axis ports and best engage and disengange potential thx to stealth and ports. dd, dp, sd and sp have all build in dmg mitigationtools like blind or evade. and thx to initiative they can use it more than once during a fight. all what a thief needs is timing. is it harder to start as thief? yes, there is more risk bound for a beginner to thief.. but as soon as someone uses the tools right, there is nearly no counterplay anymore. initiative covers the need for dmg-mitigation during a zerker fight.

and even if a thief is starting to loose, a smart thief knows when to disengage. thx to stealth a thief can easier disengange as all other classes, except maybe mesmer. but not only stealth helps the thief, his ports are also handy for this purpose. thief pushes various zerker builds out of pvp. at no point any class has found a counter to thief and stealth. ppl just start to live with that circumstance and stopped playing squisher builds in higher tiers. to open other possible roles thief must loose 1 of his advantages. either speed, less disengage potential or the advantage against other zerker builds. the other problem is, thief is pigeonhold by design into roamer role. and by philosophy from anet thief shall be a evasive class. even if thief would not be the strongest fighter anymore, anytime a thief is stealthing in a pvp match, ppl need to rotate to protect nodes from decapping. that potential alone forces outmanned fights.
so how we fix this?

What: infiltrators arrow, steal, infiltrators strike, shadow shot and shadow return
Type: Mobility, Skill changes.
Suggestion: infiltrators arrow, steal, infiltrators strike, shadow shot and shadow return loosing the capability to port z-axis.
Why: with this positioning now for other zerker builds is important again. the last patch destroyed positioning completly.

What: steal and infiltrators strike
Type: Mobility/Skill changes.
Suggestion: steal and infiltrators strike need los
Why: without the need to be los its to easy for a thief to attack from a “safespot” and disengage if needed.

What: infiltrators strike
Type: Mobility, Skill changes.
Suggestion: infiltrators strike doesnt activate if not in range
Why: no more “safespots” and free condi-remove via chain without a target in range

What: serpents touch
Type: Counter-play, Trait changes.
Suggestion: serpents touch lower poison duration from 10secs to 3secs
Why: atm its to strong for just an adept trait. esp for fight against zerkers where its will be likely that he needs healing during the duration. now it would require more timing.

What: bountiful theft
Type: Counter-play, Trait changes.
Suggestion: bountiful theft needs a rework of priority of stolen boons
Why: coupled with sleight of hand its a to strong combo to always get a assured interrupt.

What: sleight of hand
Type: Counter-play, Trait changes.
Suggestion: sleight of hand removing of the 20% recharge
Why: sleight of hand is already strong on its own and can act like a quasi stunbreaker to interrupt the action of the victim thx to no activation time of steal. coupled with the other strong traits, steal is very strong but is more a no-brainer thx to short recharge time. now more timing is needed.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

(edited by Zero Day.2594)

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Part 2/3

Originally by: hooma.9642

What: Attacks missing, blocked or evaded
Type: Counter-play, Mechanic change.
Suggestion: miss, blocked or evaded if in range will now leed to reveal
Why: lets be honest. attacking out of stealth and negating active defense with multiple attacks to get a strong “opening” attack is not fair for the ressources spend from thief in comparison for the ressource and more important recharge time spend from the victim. now it would be require a setup as example after camping in shadow refuge to successful attack a guard with aegis.

What: feline grace
Type: Counter-play, Trait changes.
Suggestion: feline grace now grants 50% bonus endurance regeneration for 6secs and is stackable.
Why: without that feline grace just stacks to easy with vigor, sigill of energy and other endurance regenerating sources.

What: flanking strike
Type: Counter-play, Skill changes.
Suggestion: flanking strike now goes into Larcenous Strike if it gets evaded, blocked or missed if in range
Why: if a victim used a ressource to negate that attack there should be now reward for a thief to get a free attack again with build-in dmg mitigation for more pressure and active defense burning. also it would open more counterplay and prevent multiple usage of that skill for dmg mitigation. an aftercast would kill the chain. that why we try to open counterplay that way

What: larcenous strike
Type: Counter-play, Skill changes.
Suggestion: larcenous strike now stays active from 3 seconds to 5 seconds
Why: to indicate why to use the chain and not for dmg-mitigation spam of flanking strike coupled with other dmg-mitigation during the 3 seconds before reset.

What: chill
Type: Counter-play, Mechanic change.
Suggestion: chill now inflicts initiative regeneration
Why: i see no reason why a thief should get an exception

What: initiative
Type: Counter-play, Mechanic change.
Suggestion: on interrupt the initiative is lost that will be spend
Why: other classes get a recharge too, so why a thief should be a exception

What: lotus strike
Type: Counter-play, Skill changes.
Suggestion: lotus strike lower posion duration from 4sec to 3secs
Why: 4sec for a attackchain of a non-condi-weapon is to strong. esp against zerker

What: crippling strike
Type: Counter-play, Skill changes.
Suggestion: crippling strike now just grants cripple and now weakness anymore
Why: thief already has strong dmg-mitigation tools. weakness is also more deadly against other zerker

What: withdraw
Type: Counter-play, Skill changes.
Suggestion:withdraw recharge from 15sec to 20sec and healing from 4344 to 5792. withdraw now counts as trick
Why: withdraw is one of the strongest heals ingame. fast recharge to synchronize perfect with on heal procs. condi remove of soft cc and evade. with this change withdraw would still heal the same and used with trickster more than before. it would also open choices.

What: shadow shot
Type: Counter-play, Skill changes.
Suggestion: shadow shot reworked. now the melee attack applies blind and not the projectil anymore
Why: throught the projectil applying blind a thief could negate defense like marks or mines with this to easy.

What: shadow shot
Type: Counter-play, Skill changes.
Suggestion: shadow shot combined coeeff from 1.5 to 1 or +1 initiative
Why: shadow shot is a to strong skill for the fact that his dmg is not related to targets life value like heartseeker and functions as gap closer + dmg mitigation

What: initiative
Type: Counter-play, Mechanic change.
Suggestion: possible other solution would be to higher the skill cost of initiative for all weaponskills but further buff initiative basis recharge and for traits and weaponskills
Why: with this during a zerker fight initiative would not be possible to cover all the needed amount of skills during a very short fight, what zerkerfights normaly are. at least shorter then against sustained builds. with higher regeneration of initiative thief would also has

better skillcover for longer fights

What: shadow embrace
Type: Skill buff
Suggestion: shadow embrace now removes 2 conditions with a 5 sec pulse.
Why: outside of shadow art thief the condi-removal is to bad and inside pvp a thief cant sit in stealth to long for a fight on a node

What: shadow return
Type: Skill buff
Suggestion: shadow return now removes 2 conditions
Why: to buff the condi-removal of thiefs and for compensate of the higher risk of infiltrators strike + shadows return

What: mug
Type: Trait buff
Suggestion: mug grant healing from 1980 to 2780.
Why: to compensate for removed recharge and to open a question when to use steal during a fight

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Part 3/3

Originally by: hooma.9642

What: signet of agility
Type: Skill buff
Suggestion: signet of agility now removes 2 conditions
Why: for stronger condi-removal and for more choices of utility skills with condi-removal outside of stealth

What: residual venom
Type: Trait buff
Suggestion: residual venom additional effect: basilisk venom now acts as stunbreaker and applies 5sec of burning
Why: to open up build choices

What: resilience of shadows
Type: Trait buff/change
Suggestion: resilience of shadows reworked: reveal now grants 20% maybe 33% dmg reduction
Why: outside of engage or disengage stealth has now purpose beside some sideeffects in pvp. even in wvw catching a stealthed thief is more guessing then knowing the skill before was just redundant with just dmg avoidance via ports or dodging via stealth

What: revealed training
Type: Trait buff
Suggestion: revealed training now grants +300 power from +200
Why: more build choices and to boost fight outside of stealth

What: assasins reward
Type: Trait buff
Suggestion: assasins reward healing from 69 to 89 and coeeff from 0.05 to 0.10
Why: to boost build options and sustain

What: signet of malice
Type: Skill buff
Suggestion: signet of malice healing from 3275 to 4600 and recharge from 15 to 20sec. coeff from 0.5 to 0.6 for active. healing coeeff from

passive 0.05 to 0.10, healing passive from 132 to 160
Why: to open up build choices and possible more sustain solution for existing builds

What: skelk venom
Type: Skill buff
Suggestion: skelk venom removed the attack limit and heal from 645 to 215. coeff from 0.2 to 0.6
Why: build choices and possible more sustain solution for existing builds

What: leeching venom
Type: Skill buff
Suggestion: leeching venom healing from 325 to 162. coeff from 0.2 to 0.6. dmg from 351 to 175. coeff from 0.033 to 0.1
Why: open up build choices, more sustain or support roles

What: Invigorating Precision
Type: Trait buff
Suggestion: Invigorating Precision healing from 15% to 20%
Why: 15% alone is to weak considering thats useless in 1vs1 fights against zerkers, cause if a target eats enough dmg it will be dead. its also useless against fights with higher sustain and more consistent pressure, cause healing depends from dmg ratio. but with the buff it would help the thief sustain during teamfights to attack more squisher targets without getting to much pressure as long as he sticks to his target

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: cyyrix.6105

cyyrix.6105

Hhahaha, I’m going to have fun with this thread…

Originally by: hooma.9642
What: Consume Plasma
Type: Skill buff
Suggestion: Give additional stacks of stability to Consume Plasma
Why: Receiving every single boon in the game isn’t strong enough, especially against a class that thieves already hard counter. Consume Plasma is basically a better version of pre-nerf Lyssa runes, except for the stability. Obviously that needs to be corrected. Thieves need all the help they can get when it comes to fighting mesmers.

Cyyrix | Marypoppins Deathsquad [mds] | Team Riot [RIOT] | Blackgate

Change Wish List

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Hhahaha, I’m going to have fun with this thread…

Originally by: hooma.9642
What: Consume Plasma
Type: Skill buff
Suggestion: Give additional stacks of stability to Consume Plasma
Why: Receiving every single boon in the game isn’t strong enough, especially against a class that thieves already hard counter. Consume Plasma is basically a better version of pre-nerf Lyssa runes, except for the stability. Obviously that needs to be corrected. Thieves need all the help they can get when it comes to fighting mesmers.

Well apparently he never said that.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!