Guild Wars 2

Been maining thief almost the whole game, came back from a few month brake and went to do some spvp, “boy do I suck” I tought, but the more I played… the truth revealed to me… you sir are right, thief is pretty much useless now

bliss.4305:

*ironic ’cause nobody knows/cares to exploit the existing counterplays to stealth or thus needing a “hard counter” like reveal.

-_-

And what kind of counterplay for example Necromancer has against Thief, stealthing every 3 seconds with ability to teleport god knows where?

There is no indicator for hitting stealthed player = 0 counterplay for almost all classes.

Or perhaps mindlessly with crossed fingers dropping aoes everywhere around is a kind of counterplay to it?

Even blind spam on D/P is less cheesy than stealth spamming and Backstabing all the time.

Tao.5096:

bliss.4305:

*ironic ’cause nobody knows/cares to exploit the existing counterplays to stealth or thus needing a “hard counter” like reveal.

-_-

And what kind of counterplay for example Necromancer has against Thief, stealthing every 3 seconds with ability to teleport god knows where?

There is no indicator for hitting stealthed player = 0 counterplay for almost all classes.

Or perhaps mindlessly with crossed fingers dropping aoes everywhere around is a kind of counterplay to it?

Even blind spam on D/P is less cheesy than stealth spamming and Backstabing all the time.

Necro shroud hits thief w/o having any target…. i died so many times w/o necro even knowing i was there because he pressed his 4 and 5 and miriad passives activated.

Tao.5096:

And what kind of counterplay for example Necromancer has against Thief, stealthing every 3 seconds with ability to teleport god knows where?

Necros have enormous HP-Pools, AoE fear and weapons like dagger and scepter which indicates hitting a stealthed player. (Btw. revealed in sPvP lasts 4 sec.)

Tao.5096:

There is no indicator for hitting stealthed player = 0 counterplay for almost all classes.

Every class has weapon sets which indicates hitting a stealthed player.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chain

(Many of them are weapon sets used in meta builds.)

There are even traits which indicates hitting a stealthed player.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealous_Blade

Only a few classes like Ele or Engi have really bad access to weapon sets which indicates hitting a stealthed player. Most of them have easy access to other ways to defend themselves against stealthed player like AoE damage or revealed mechanics.

@witcher The only meta is d/p and SB everything else nerfed even d/d when CiS became a GM competing witj SRej so no buffs for those huh?? Making d/d a real sustain condi weapon and making p/p an evade based ranged weapon instead of dumb damage buffs would create good trade-offs for SB so no buffs for them either huh? What is it with nerfing thief really tell me…

ZenMa.3976:

Dragon rank/ played only thief almost 1k matched.

Can’t fight 1vs1 with any class cuz thief will lose mostly.

Thief can actually stalemate almost any 1v1 fight. Except he has to leave point to do it. So it’s counter intuitive for any thief to 1v1 unless his teamate comes to +1. If you want to 1v1, join a dueling servers

ZenMa.3976:

Therefore, Thief must run. Run Run Run. Just do decap or +1 fight. <<< other class can do this same. So, what is the point of playing thief in SPvP?? Just res in stealth?

Thieves can do this so well, a good Thief can literally snowball the map. It’s why 99% of teams has at least 1 Thief. No other class can do it better.

ZenMa.3976:

Oh, that’s freaking coooooooooooooooooooooool. That is Only one reason to play thief.

Yea, probably. So instead of complaining that Thieves are bad, instead talk about changing their roles in TPvP since that’s what you’re QQing about.

Bad thieves are bad in pvp because they concentrate more on being in team fights and 1v1ing classes, instead of roaming to +1 and rotating the map to backcap nodes. If you don’t like that class, talk to your dev on Daredevil, surely some one must have talked about expanding the Thief role.

i didnt read the whole thread but to say thief is useless is so worng

first of all why you wanna do 1v1 when you can teleport so fast between point to help your team in 3v2 or 4v3 and secure few kills while decaping and releave some pressure from your team.
thief cannoy contest a point without waisting time so again why 1v1?
also regarding 1v1. good thief can handle 1v1 versus almost any class if time is on hand. d/p with stealth kite few hits here and there stealth again and repeate when enemy skills are on cd can yiled a win for you. but again loosing time.
you hardly see 1v1 on pvp match unless there is a reason to do so. like prevent the bunker/sustain to move from a point and helping his team etc…
i wish when i group up we had a thief with us….
when i play thief with a group i hardly join team fight rather decap/cap like crazy so even when my team lost in the fight we winning by points…

messiah.1908:

first of all why you wanna do 1v1

Rambo mentality. Thats what attracted most people to thief as he had it too good for a long time. Some of them still think that in 1v1 they should autowin just bc they playing thief.

Howered thief community still failing to realize why there are basically 0 berserker (marauder actually..) builds tho.

Time to address some nonsense.

messiah.1908:

first of all why you wanna do 1v1

Because Anet said we do that.

The official GW2 Thief Wiki

Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.

kolompi.1287:

Don’t play support guardian, your only role is to remove conditions and heal people in team fights.

Don’t play pewpew ranger, your only role is to snipe people that are unaware of you being there.

Don’t play engineer, your only role is to run around being tanky and holding off people.

Don’t play mesmer, your only role is to burst.

Don’t play warrior, your only role is to go rampage and throw rocks.

Garbage viewpoint. All of the aforementioned classes have a spec that allows them to play in a manner other than the one you listed, and all of the classes you mentioned do not include “running away” or “utility” as their strong suit.

You’ve missed the point in an effort to be snarky. Try again.

Saiyan.1704:

Bad thieves are bad in pvp because they concentrate more on being in team fights and 1v1ing classes, instead of roaming to +1 and rotating the map to backcap nodes. If you don’t like that class, talk to your dev on Daredevil, surely some one must have talked about expanding the Thief role.

See thief wiki for dev intent of the class.

witcher.3197:

The thief community is the most ignorant one I’ve ever seen in any game, period.

You’re funny.

witcher.3197:

While I see where you’re coming from, let’s list some facts:

• Thief is the best in slot for +1’ing and decapping eversince 2012 and one of the main reasons is shortbow. Now, why would you buff builds that are already #1? Nothing matches thief’s mobility. Every thief’s using shortbow, so whatever buffs you do to thief, you buff them in this role too. Creating a super mobile spec that can take 1v1s, hmm where have I seen that before?…

Mesmer. Right now.

>Buff thieves in a manner so that they consider not taking shortbow

WOW AMAZING INNOVATIVE-

Not that they need to, because of the below:

witcher.3197:

Yes it’s squishy and can’t take 1v1s. But unless it gets nerfed in other areas, it absolutely shouldn’t be buffed.

Please see the Thief wiki also.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Time to address some nonsense.

messiah.1908:

first of all why you wanna do 1v1

The official GW2 Thief Wiki

Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.

kolompi.1287:

Don’t play support guardian, your only role is to remove conditions and heal people in team fights.

Don’t play pewpew ranger, your only role is to snipe people that are unaware of you being there.

Don’t play engineer, your only role is to run around being tanky and holding off people.

Don’t play mesmer, your only role is to burst.

Don’t play warrior, your only role is to go rampage and throw rocks.

Garbage viewpoint. All of the aforementioned classes have a spec that allows them to play in a manner other than the one you listed, and all of the classes you mentioned do not include “running away” or “utility” as their strong suit.

You’ve missed the point in an effort to be snarky. Try again.

Saiyan.1704:

Bad thieves are bad in pvp because they concentrate more on being in team fights and 1v1ing classes, instead of roaming to +1 and rotating the map to backcap nodes. If you don’t like that class, talk to your dev on Daredevil, surely some one must have talked about expanding the Thief role.

See thief wiki for dev intent of the class.

LOL

speaking of wvw point of view. thief are deady 1v1 and sometime 1v2. but take this on pvp where you should also contest,res,stomp, decap, cap etc and have timer above your head… it just waist of time. if no times was than everone would go pu condi mesmer best1v1 if you wanna fight 2 days accoumplish nothing

messiah.1908:

speaking of wvw point of view. thief are deady 1v1 and sometime 1v2. but take this on pvp where you should also contest,res,stomp, decap, cap etc and have timer above your head… it just waist of time. if no times was than everone would go pu condi mesmer best1v1 if you wanna fight 2 days accoumplish nothing

And you know what? Thieves should be deadly 1v1 / 1v2 in WVW.

In days and places of warfare, even in societies not under siege, people traveled in (and still do travel in) groups so robbers wouldnt kill them.

That practice was so common that it spurred the use of the term “Highway Robbery.” People that laid in wait for unguarded travelers were called “Highwaymen.” Traveling to a location alone is usually more dangerous for the traveler than the bandit, so why the hell is it backwards here?

If you’re travelling solo around that map, you’re asking to be mugged. and that is how it should be. Thieves should be -excellent- when they catch you alone, but melt when outnumbered. Right now they’re the inverse, and who cares about that. you can 2v1 with any class and do well.

Why are people Internalizing these “Bandits shouldnt be good 1v1” rants? Their role could easily be “pressure people into traveling in pairs/running lanes between points by punishing people that try to stretch lead by capping alone”; but since that seems to be toxic to the players, all we’re asking for is sustain so that the wiki (And, by extension, what apparently is the developmental intent of the class by the devs) wont be an outright lie.

‘Cause right now its a lie about as heavy as looking at a cat and swearing by your hat that it’s a panda bear.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Time to address some nonsense.

messiah.1908:

first of all why you wanna do 1v1

Because Anet said we do that.

The official GW2 Thief Wiki

Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.

kolompi.1287:

Don’t play support guardian, your only role is to remove conditions and heal people in team fights.

Don’t play pewpew ranger, your only role is to snipe people that are unaware of you being there.

Don’t play engineer, your only role is to run around being tanky and holding off people.

Don’t play mesmer, your only role is to burst.

Don’t play warrior, your only role is to go rampage and throw rocks.

Garbage viewpoint. All of the aforementioned classes have a spec that allows them to play in a manner other than the one you listed, and all of the classes you mentioned do not include “running away” or “utility” as their strong suit.

You’ve missed the point in an effort to be snarky. Try again.

Saiyan.1704:

Bad thieves are bad in pvp because they concentrate more on being in team fights and 1v1ing classes, instead of roaming to +1 and rotating the map to backcap nodes. If you don’t like that class, talk to your dev on Daredevil, surely some one must have talked about expanding the Thief role.

See thief wiki for dev intent of the class.

witcher.3197:

The thief community is the most ignorant one I’ve ever seen in any game, period.

You’re funny.

witcher.3197:

While I see where you’re coming from, let’s list some facts:

• Thief is the best in slot for +1’ing and decapping eversince 2012 and one of the main reasons is shortbow. Now, why would you buff builds that are already #1? Nothing matches thief’s mobility. Every thief’s using shortbow, so whatever buffs you do to thief, you buff them in this role too. Creating a super mobile spec that can take 1v1s, hmm where have I seen that before?…

Mesmer. Right now.

>Buff thieves in a manner so that they consider not taking shortbow

WOW AMAZING INNOVATIVE-

Not that they need to, because of the below:

witcher.3197:

Yes it’s squishy and can’t take 1v1s. But unless it gets nerfed in other areas, it absolutely shouldn’t be buffed.

Please see the Thief wiki also.

I have to point out, the wiki isn’t that great of an arguement. Right on top of the page says:

Welcome to the official Guild Wars 2 Wiki, the comprehensive reference written and maintained by the players.

That was a player written description, wrote at the very beginning of the game( or atleast the wiki)
by some one named Erasculio.

Scroll all the way to the bottom of the history page for the first written note.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Thief&offset=&limit=500&action=history

To see what the Devs’ intentions of thieves were look here, nothing about 1v1 capabilities though.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/

RE: Above.

Oh boy I wish I could play some phoenix wright music at the moment.

I figured someone would chime in about “The wiki is player maintained!”, so before this I did some digging with the wayback machine. The original intent of the class, as seen on the official site, is as follows, and I quote:

“A master of stealth and surprise, the thief is deadly in single combat—particularly when catching enemies off guard. Thieves compensate for their relatively low armor and health by being quick and evasive. They can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Enemies should watch their backs, or the thief will watch it for them.”

Heres source.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110919124952/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/

So uh.

Yeah.

Deadly in single combat.

Erasculio is on the money more than you might think.

That does bring to the forefront a rather interesting question though.

Why did that snippet of being good at 1v1 vanish from the official site?

Everyone thinks thieves ask to be Op in 1v1. All thieves ask for is to actually have some chance vs some classes. Right now as thief gameplay: there is enemy? Run away.

People don’t do pvp to spend entire match running away. Players pvp to experience play vs player COMBAT which developers decided to deny to thieves because of some rather dubious marketing strategy.

Once HoT comes out, revs will completely shut down thieves and no sb5 in the world will keep them in pvp. Best part, according to votes on reddit, this class was rated worst in EVERY area of this game.

Yes, thief is playable if you are REALLLLLYYYY good at it and you have REALLLY good team that you can rely on. They don’t have you as thief to help them, they have you as a pet that can help to increase the score difference. That is all. As thief you actually have close to no influence on match outcome if your team is not destroying enemy team already. You think this is fun? Do you really think it is fun to be a worthless pet?

You know sub rogues also had support role in wow in arena, but at least they had high burst that actually did dmg on relative short CD and high amount of CC. What does thief have? yay sb5 and stealth, both will be useless in HoT.

Shadowstep.6049:

Everyone thinks thieves ask to be Op in 1v1. All thieves ask for is to actually have some chance vs some classes. Right now as thief gameplay: there is enemy? Run away.

People don’t do pvp to spend entire match running away. Players pvp to experience play vs player COMBAT which developers decided to deny to thieves.

Once HoT comes out, revs will completely shuit down thieves and no sb5 in the world will keep them in pvp. Best part, according to votes on reddit, this class was rated worst in EVERY area of this game.

Yes, thief is playable if you are REALLLLLYYYY good at it and you have REALLLY good team that you can rely on. They don’t have you as thief to help them, they have you as a pet that can help to increase the score difference. That is all. As thief you actually have close to no influence on match outcome if your team is not destroying enemy team already. You think this is fun? Do you really think it is fun to be a worthless pet?

There is one wrong thing in your post which kinda breaks your post whole.

PvP Arenas aren’t about pvping – they’re about holding points for as long as possible.

You don’t have to kill or engage in battle even once, as long as you’ll cap points.

In WvW on the other hand, thieves shine if played well.

Tao.5096:

Shadowstep.6049:

Everyone thinks thieves ask to be Op in 1v1. All thieves ask for is to actually have some chance vs some classes. Right now as thief gameplay: there is enemy? Run away.

People don’t do pvp to spend entire match running away. Players pvp to experience play vs player COMBAT which developers decided to deny to thieves.

Once HoT comes out, revs will completely shuit down thieves and no sb5 in the world will keep them in pvp. Best part, according to votes on reddit, this class was rated worst in EVERY area of this game.

Yes, thief is playable if you are REALLLLLYYYY good at it and you have REALLLY good team that you can rely on. They don’t have you as thief to help them, they have you as a pet that can help to increase the score difference. That is all. As thief you actually have close to no influence on match outcome if your team is not destroying enemy team already. You think this is fun? Do you really think it is fun to be a worthless pet?

There is one wrong thing in your post which kinda breaks your post whole.

PvP Arenas aren’t about pvping – they’re about holding points for as long as possible.

You don’t have to kill or engage in battle even once, as long as you’ll cap points.

In WvW on the other hand, thieves shine if played well.

Holding points involves fighting off players that come to capture those points, as well as defeating players currently occupying a point.

Both of those situations require battle.

Unless I’m insane, PVP is strictly about pvping.

I think if your worst 1v1 match up is a draw as you can always disengage and survive if you cannot kill your opponent, that qualifies as “good”. It clearly does not say that thief is good at contesting nodes
Thief has good damage and cc, so it also qualifies as deadly.
#arguingsemanticsandclassdescriptions

edit:

Everyone thinks thieves ask to be Op in 1v1. All thieves ask for is to actually have some chance vs some classes. Right now as thief gameplay: there is enemy? Run away.

NOBODY wants to play a build that is hard countered by a superior mobility build that is involved in most if not all competitive teams. There are plenty of builds that have a 50:50 or worse match up vs thief. Some of them see play (Shatter mesmer) but most of them don’t because there is no payoff for running them. Nobody wants to have to babysit one person in their team 24/7 just because there is a thief on the enemy team. Mesmer sees play as it has stealth, high mobility to disengage and brings good utility (sounds familiar huh?) so it is actually worth bringing one.

edit2: also saying thief has no impact if your team isn’t already winning is wrong. If you just look at the old solo queue leader boards there are multiple thief players who have more than 60%+ winrate (e.g. levin, sizer, faeleth) , which is very unlikely given the high amount of games unless you do have actual game impact.

Because it was beta and things changed?

Heres an interview with Eric Flannum, Jon Peters, and Isaiah Cartwright about their thoughts of GW 2 theif when it was revealed (pun intended). I don’t know if the current team is still sticking with this theme but its does sure sound like it.

http://kotaku.com/5780900/the-guild-wars-2-thief-is-a-rogue-like-none-other

“When ArenaNet initially announced the Thief class last week, the image that came to the mind of many gamers was that of today’s standard MMO rogue, sneaking through the shadows, building up combo points, and hitting weak points for massive damage. Your typical rogue class wears light armor, sacrificing protection in order to take foes down quickly. They’ll take more damage, but the battle is generally over a lot quicker than were a warrior covered head-to-toe in armor fighting the same creature.

That’s what everyone expected the Guild Wars 2 Thief to be. A brief mention of something called Initiative Points fueled the flames, with folks concluding that this was just another combo-point building rogue a ‘la World of Warcraft.

ArenaNet’s Eric Flannum, Jon Peters, and Isaiah Cartwright explain to us how wrong that conclusion is."

I also found this, though the source is no longer available to confirm.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/12599-arenanet-official-thief-reveal/page__st__150#entry603458

Eric(again) explaining how they wanted to differ thief from GW 1 assassin .

Eric: “The thief is quite different from the assassin in many key ways, which is why we chose to rename the profession. The first major difference is that we wanted the thief to be a more versatile profession (as all Guild Wars 2 professions are) than the Guild Wars 1 assassin. Whereas the assassin is mostly a damage dealer the thief can deal damage, support his allies, and even control mobs through clever use of dodging and movement altering effects. The assassin was also much more of a burst damage dealer in Guild Wars 1 relying on specifically chained skills to deliver big damage with a finishing move, the thief does not have this sort of mechanic instead being more of a hit and run pressure character, dealing damage and then darting out of combat to safety.”

Tao.5096:

In WvW on the other hand, thieves shine if played well.

Really? I guess in GvGs. In pugs you are one of the most useless classes and while roaming, you’ve got one option: d/p and stealth long enough to run away from any other roamer with a similar skill lvl…oh I forgot about perma stealth condi trapper! xD

Erzian.5218:

I think if your worst 1v1 match up is a draw as you can always disengage and survive if you cannot kill your opponent, that qualifies as “good”. It clearly does not say that thief is good at contesting nodes
Thief has good damage and cc, so it also qualifies as deadly.
#arguingsemanticsandclassdescriptions

edit:

Everyone thinks thieves ask to be Op in 1v1. All thieves ask for is to actually have some chance vs some classes. Right now as thief gameplay: there is enemy? Run away.

NOBODY wants to play a build that is hard countered by a superior mobility build that is involved in most if not all competitive teams. There are plenty of builds that have a 50:50 or worse match up vs thief. Some of them see play (Shatter mesmer) but most of them don’t because there is no payoff for running them. Nobody wants to have to babysit one person in their team 24/7 just because there is a thief on the enemy team. Mesmer sees play as it has stealth, high mobility to disengage and brings good utility (sounds familiar huh?) so it is actually worth bringing one.

Hardcountered? Please tell me what thieves hardcounter? Shatter mes has 50:50 or worse match up vs thief? Really? Wow, did you pvp lately?

And where did i say thieves want to be HARDCOUNTER to anything? Please tell me. You are just making up stuff for the sake of argument.

Erzian.5218:

I think if your worst 1v1 match up is a draw as you can always disengage and survive if you cannot kill your opponent, that qualifies as “good”. It clearly does not say that thief is good at contesting nodes
Thief has good damage and cc, so it also qualifies as deadly.
#arguingsemanticsandclassdescriptions

I applaud you for attempting to prove they are fine even now. Valiant effort.

This appears to be a much smaller version of the “mobility so you’re good” argument, because clearly fighting someone solo inside of a holographic circle does nothing to alter the fact that it is 1v1.

And since it cannot 1v1 right now, having good damage and cc does not make it “deadly in 1v1”

Azure The Heartless.3261:

And you know what? Thieves should be deadly 1v1 / 1v2 in WVW.

Here we go.. Im a thief, i should be able to kill anyone 1v1 or even 1v2. How they dare to even look at me! Die! <laser from eyes> boom ded.

Ps. thieves in dueling rooms doesnt complain and win 1v1 quite often.

Thieves often been saying l2p…. so maybe its time to say l2p the other way around?

Some time ago, Thieves were kings of 1v1 while they have stealth. This made them overpowered as kitten. They have the ability to do high damage and have high survivability due to mobility and stealth. Thieves were rightfully nerfed.

If thieves should be buffed to win 1v1 easily, they should lose/reduce access to stealth. Hopefully daredevil would fill that.

runeblade.7514:

Some time ago, Thieves were kings of 1v1 while they have stealth. This made them overpowered as kitten. They have the ability to do high damage and have high survivability due to mobility and stealth. Thieves were rightfully nerfed.

If thieves should be buffed to win 1v1 easily, they should lose/reduce access to stealth. Hopefully daredevil would fill that.

Easily, hardcounter, OP, beat everything <<<this gets thrown around so much BUT WHERE DO YOU SEE ANY THIEF ASKING FOR IT!!??

Very nice find, Kahnen. Going to address one thing, but I’ve got nothing to retort if this source is correct.

kahnen.4815:

The thief is quite different from the assassin in many key ways, which is why we chose to rename the profession. The first major difference is that we wanted the thief to be a more versatile profession (as all Guild Wars 2 professions are) than the Guild Wars 1 assassin. Whereas the assassin is mostly a damage dealer the thief can deal damage, support his allies, and even control mobs through clever use of dodging and movement altering effects. The assassin was also much more of a burst damage dealer in Guild Wars 1 relying on specifically chained skills to deliver big damage with a finishing move, the thief does not have this sort of mechanic instead being more of a hit and run pressure character, dealing damage and then darting out of combat to safety.”

So pretty much thief is declared backcap mule, since dealing damage and then running away does nothing to people holding a point.

Neat. Back to warrior.

Burtnik.5218:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

And you know what? Thieves should be deadly 1v1 / 1v2 in WVW.

Here we go.. Im a thief, i should be able to kill anyone 1v1 or even 1v2. How they dare to even look at me! Die! <laser from eyes> boom ded.

Ps. thieves in dueling rooms doesnt complain and win 1v1 quite often.

Thieves often been saying l2p…. so maybe its time to say l2p the other way around?

I’ve conceded defeat, but I will not have you putting words in my mouth.

Deadly in 1v1 does not mean “hand me a free win.”

It means “I should be able to fight 1v1 without running away.”

A snake can be deadly but not kill something.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Erzian.5218:

I think if your worst 1v1 match up is a draw as you can always disengage and survive if you cannot kill your opponent, that qualifies as “good”. It clearly does not say that thief is good at contesting nodes
Thief has good damage and cc, so it also qualifies as deadly.
#arguingsemanticsandclassdescriptions

I applaud you for attempting to prove they are fine even now. Valiant effort.

This appears to be a much smaller version of the “mobility so you’re good” argument, because clearly fighting someone solo inside of a holographic circle does nothing to alter the fact that it is 1v1.

And since it cannot 1v1 right now, having good damage and cc does not make it “deadly in 1v1”

You are not forced to stay in a circle. You can go wherever it pleases you, the maps are pretty big. Your argument does not make sense as the description clearly says 1v1 not “1v1 under circumstances made by Azure The Heartless.3261”.
Funny thing is if you played 1v1 conquest thief would win vs most builds.

Thief, here is your new build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVlsMhOnY5Tw7Jw/EHIFlPHuheg3ABwC0DhMILB-TJBDABiXGYn9HO4UAAwTAAA

Everyone who does not like this build, please exit in an orderly fashion. You will notice a button on the top left of your screen or by pressing escape, followed by clicking the Log out of Character selection option. Proceed to click the delete key and enter the name of your Thief. Good job, you’re doing fine. Last part here, and I assure you this is the easiest, click Create. Now, choose a race and then look for the funny mask. Does it say Mesmer? Good job, click that. Ok, final step- create your mesmer and never look back.

Erzian.5218:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Erzian.5218:

I think if your worst 1v1 match up is a draw as you can always disengage and survive if you cannot kill your opponent, that qualifies as “good”. It clearly does not say that thief is good at contesting nodes
Thief has good damage and cc, so it also qualifies as deadly.
#arguingsemanticsandclassdescriptions

I applaud you for attempting to prove they are fine even now. Valiant effort.

This appears to be a much smaller version of the “mobility so you’re good” argument, because clearly fighting someone solo inside of a holographic circle does nothing to alter the fact that it is 1v1.

And since it cannot 1v1 right now, having good damage and cc does not make it “deadly in 1v1”

You are not forced to stay in a circle. You can go wherever it pleases you, the maps are pretty big. Your argument does not make sense as the description clearly says 1v1 not “1v1 under circumstances made by Azure The Heartless.3261”.
Funny thing is if you played 1v1 conquest thief would win vs most builds.

????

I never said I was forced to stay in the circle.
in SPVP, you will most likely always be fighting on point. Why “1v1 inside of a point is still 1v1” is an argument that makes no sense to you, I dont know, but apparently you think that contesting a point is different from 1v1, when in fact it is not in many cases.

I have no problem with 1v1 anywhere else, but in Spvp contesting is the main place where battles take place.

Thief does not, in fact, win 1v1 in conquest vs. most popular builds, because they do not have enough sustain to contest an actively defended point.

That’s the whole issue. we need at least the promised healing increase in order to do this competently. Otherwise, all we’re decent at is SB5ing across the map.
Apparently that is the whole point of thief though, so I’m not going to argue for something that we were not intended to have unless there is word that devs agree that thief is in a bad place.

Shadowstep.6049:

runeblade.7514:

Some time ago, Thieves were kings of 1v1 while they have stealth. This made them overpowered as kitten. They have the ability to do high damage and have high survivability due to mobility and stealth. Thieves were rightfully nerfed.

If thieves should be buffed to win 1v1 easily, they should lose/reduce access to stealth. Hopefully daredevil would fill that.

Easily, hardcounter, OP, beat everything <<<this gets thrown around so much BUT WHERE DO YOU SEE ANY THIEF ASKING FOR IT!!??

Then you already got what you asked for. Thieves can win 1v1. They just can’t win it easily as before.

runeblade.7514:

Shadowstep.6049:

runeblade.7514:

Some time ago, Thieves were kings of 1v1 while they have stealth. This made them overpowered as kitten. They have the ability to do high damage and have high survivability due to mobility and stealth. Thieves were rightfully nerfed.

If thieves should be buffed to win 1v1 easily, they should lose/reduce access to stealth. Hopefully daredevil would fill that.

Easily, hardcounter, OP, beat everything <<<this gets thrown around so much BUT WHERE DO YOU SEE ANY THIEF ASKING FOR IT!!??

Then you already got what you asked for. Thieves can win 1v1. They can’t win it easily.

Given same skill, no they can’t (besides some bad builds).

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Holding points involves fighting off players that come to capture those points, as well as defeating players currently occupying a point.

Both of those situations require battle.

Unless I’m insane, PVP is strictly about pvping.

Not really?
Thief can run from one point to another in circles(even lord if needed), caping points and so on.
Guardians for example can sit on point and tank for as long as they can.

I already had such matches, where enemy team was rekting my team pvp wise, but because my teammates were sitting on point for however long they could, we still won 500/350.

Same things happen in ESL tournaments.

Arenas are about capping and holding points for however long you can and that’s the key to win, not fighting, chasing and stomping.

illenos.5134:

Tao.5096:

In WvW on the other hand, thieves shine if played well.

Really? I guess in GvGs. In pugs you are one of the most useless classes and while roaming, you’ve got one option: d/p and stealth long enough to run away from any other roamer with a similar skill lvl…oh I forgot about perma stealth condi trapper! xD

You would be surprised.
In organized raids, a good thief is a very strong card, because disabling enemy’s Necro or Ele even for 3 sec gives a window for your Raid to push hard, because there is less damage to mitigate.

If it comes to roaming, another surprise.
There are a lot of Thieves running builds which have no place in Arena.
D/P, D/D, P/D, S/P, S/D, Venom.
Even Thief Trapper can be found in WvW.

Same thing is about every single other class.

What’s more, due to greater and better stat distribution, people aren’t as squishy as in Arena.

I wrote couple of times already, that Anet rekt PvP Arena mode, and it’s their fault the state it is by now.
Because even year ago, we had greater population, more experienced population and more enjoyable time in PvP than it is now.

I’m not against changes, but I’m against changes that cripple and show middle finger to players.

Other posts got infracted and deleted, we’ll see for how long this one will hold.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

witcher.3197:

While I see where you’re coming from, let’s list some facts:

• Thief is the best in slot for +1’ing and decapping eversince 2012 and one of the main reasons is shortbow. Now, why would you buff builds that are already #1? Nothing matches thief’s mobility. Every thief’s using shortbow, so whatever buffs you do to thief, you buff them in this role too. Creating a super mobile spec that can take 1v1s, hmm where have I seen that before?…

Mesmer. Right now.

>Buff thieves in a manner so that they consider not taking shortbow

WOW AMAZING INNOVATIVE-

Not that they need to, because of the below:

witcher.3197:

Yes it’s squishy and can’t take 1v1s. But unless it gets nerfed in other areas, it absolutely shouldn’t be buffed.

Please see the Thief wiki also.

Mesmer, lol, they lack any kind of movement speed boost and have to use utility skills with long CDs for mobility (thief = 0 sec cd shadowstep spam from shortbow) not to mention that just like thief they shouldn’t really 1v1 and have some pretty bad matchups.

Buff thieves so they don’t need shortbow? You mean, buff thieves without touching shortbow, so you’d give them more mobility and utility, while they can just choose to keep shortbow too because they have no reason not to?

Amazing ideas so far.

Tao.5096:

Arenas are about capping and holding points for however long you can and that’s the key to win, not fighting, chasing and stomping.

???

2+2 = 5?

God I’m so tired of these trheads. A new one pops immediatly after people get tired of one, and it’s always the same kitten in them.

At this point, if you’re unhappy with Thief, go play something else, seriously.

I win a 1v1 if I kill my opponent and I lose it if I die. Thief doesn’t die unless you over-commit but can still kill a variety of builds.
If you insist on taking nodes into account then I win the 1v1 if I can contest the node and as my (thief) mobility is higher than yours (non thief) I can contest it by simply being there before you. I already won. I can then just go somewhere else and as it takes longer to cap than to decap I have succeeded. I can even contest it by being invisible for a big as you then have to guess whether I go to your node or not and either way, I can do the opposite and win again.
Either you see 1v1 as contesting nodes at which thief is very good due to its mobility (which becomes obvious as in any top team brings one for that reason) or you see it as fighting, at which thief is very good as its worst match up is a draw. It you mix up both you are purposely making up a situation that makes thief look bad but by doing so you prove absolutely nothing as everyone can make up a large variety of situations in which class/build xy is bad. If you want to be good in that particular situation then you might be playing the wrong class, if you want to have what you can do now+be good in that situation then you are simply asking to be overpowered as thief has had and still has its place in the meta with a higher certainty than any other class.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Saiyan.1704:

Bad thieves are bad in pvp because they concentrate more on being in team fights and 1v1ing classes, instead of roaming to +1 and rotating the map to backcap nodes. If you don’t like that class, talk to your dev on Daredevil, surely some one must have talked about expanding the Thief role.

See thief wiki for dev intent of the class.

The Devs also said, prepatch, that Guardians were “known for their burns”. … this was prepatch where everyone was Shout Bunker meta or Medi Hammer.

Thieves were also a lot better in 1v1 prepatch but not all that great post patch.

The community defines what the class is meant for. In this case, the Devs are only right about Thieves single target burst. Not about Thieves Role in PvP.

Thief just needs a base toughness-vitality buff in PvP to help it be more viable. Mesmer has more burst potential, same stealth, clones, more health, invulnerability, decent mobility. No mesmer doesn’t need a nerf imo (nerfing isn’t a solution), thief needs a buff.

witcher.3197:

Buff thieves so they don’t need shortbow? You mean, buff thieves without touching shortbow, so you’d give them more mobility and utility, while they can just choose to keep shortbow too because they have no reason not to?

Amazing ideas so far.

A sustain buff (Namely, the one we were promised but is yet unimplemented) would allow thieves to fight more effectively on point and might allow some newer builds to resurface that aren’t focused on “Get to point when it is uncontested, leave when someone comes.”

Maybe that will get some people to look at not taking shortbow, especially with DD coming up. Maybe not. fact of the matter is that at it stands now, backcap mule isn’t working.

Erzian.5218:

I win a 1v1 if I kill my opponent and I lose it if I die. Thief doesn’t die unless you over-commit but can still kill a variety of builds.
If you insist on taking nodes into account then I win the 1v1 if I can contest the node and as my (thief) mobility is higher than yours (non thief) I can contest it by simply being there before you. I already won. I can then just go somewhere else and as it takes longer to cap than to decap I have succeeded. I can even contest it by being invisible for a big as you then have to guess whether I go to your node or not and either way, I can do the opposite and win again.
Either you see 1v1 as contesting nodes at which thief is very good due to its mobility (which becomes obvious as in any top team brings one for that reason) or you see it as fighting, at which thief is very good as its worst match up is a draw. It you mix up both you are purposely making up a situation that makes thief look bad but by doing so you prove absolutely nothing as everyone can make up a large variety of situations in which class/build xy is bad. If you want to be good in that particular situation then you might be playing the wrong class, if you want to have what you can do now+be good in that situation then you are simply asking to be overpowered as thief has had and still has its place in the meta with a higher certainty than any other class.

Contesting =/= capping a point before someone else.

The very core of the issue is that because thief is good at sitting on unattended points, it should not be allowed to spec in such a way that allows it to challenge other classes while they are on the point.

I frankly don’t care how it’s done. What I’m concerned with is that I cannot be an effective thief in SPVP unless I perform that one task, however entertaining players may think it to be.

Being trapped in that one role is stupid. I don’t care about -why- we’re there or being able to instantly devour 1v1s because of the nature of my class. Damage is in a good place, but there’s no option to do anything outside of what people are touting as apparently proper thief gameplay (namely, cap and run), because thieves are not equipped to deal with the recently scaled damage output of the other classes.

Again though, it appears that the core design of the class was focused around “hit and run”, so that request to do otherwise may be a dead one anyway.

I’m through arguing about it.

This thread makes me feel a little better about how hard I flopped last night when trying to complete the daily win. I got it eventually, but through sheer luck of getting a good team. I was going down faster than an analogy that wouldn’t be appropriate for this forum.

Granted, I picked up a build off MetaBattle and tried to learn it on the spot, but holy crap was I failing. They’re saying this stuff about hiding in stealth and I couldn’t even stay in stealth for more than a few seconds before all my CDs were blown and I was down on the ground.

I take it the skill cap for being good at Thief is pretty high.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

witcher.3197:

Buff thieves so they don’t need shortbow? You mean, buff thieves without touching shortbow, so you’d give them more mobility and utility, while they can just choose to keep shortbow too because they have no reason not to?

Amazing ideas so far.

A sustain buff (Namely, the one we were promised but is yet unimplemented) would allow thieves to fight more effectively on point and might allow some newer builds to resurface that aren’t focused on “Get to point when it is uncontested, leave when someone comes.”

Maybe that will get some people to look at not taking shortbow, especially with DD coming up. Maybe not. fact of the matter is that at it stands now, backcap mule isn’t working.

Erzian.5218:

I win a 1v1 if I kill my opponent and I lose it if I die. Thief doesn’t die unless you over-commit but can still kill a variety of builds.
If you insist on taking nodes into account then I win the 1v1 if I can contest the node and as my (thief) mobility is higher than yours (non thief) I can contest it by simply being there before you. I already won. I can then just go somewhere else and as it takes longer to cap than to decap I have succeeded. I can even contest it by being invisible for a big as you then have to guess whether I go to your node or not and either way, I can do the opposite and win again.
Either you see 1v1 as contesting nodes at which thief is very good due to its mobility (which becomes obvious as in any top team brings one for that reason) or you see it as fighting, at which thief is very good as its worst match up is a draw. It you mix up both you are purposely making up a situation that makes thief look bad but by doing so you prove absolutely nothing as everyone can make up a large variety of situations in which class/build xy is bad. If you want to be good in that particular situation then you might be playing the wrong class, if you want to have what you can do now+be good in that situation then you are simply asking to be overpowered as thief has had and still has its place in the meta with a higher certainty than any other class.

Contesting =/= capping a point before someone else.

The very core of the issue is that because thief is good at sitting on unattended points, it should not be allowed to spec in such a way that allows it to challenge other classes while they are on the point.

I frankly don’t care how it’s done. What I’m concerned with is that I cannot be an effective thief in SPVP unless I perform that one task, however entertaining players may think it to be.

Being trapped in that one role is stupid. I don’t care about -why- we’re there or being able to instantly devour 1v1s because of the nature of my class. Damage is in a good place, but there’s no option to do anything outside of what people are touting as apparently proper thief gameplay (namely, cap and run), because thieves are not equipped to deal with the recently scaled damage output of the other classes.

And that’s the conversation this thread should be having instead of blatantly calling the class bad without awknowledging the fact that the class is used effectively in almost every top PvP team.

Saiyan.1704:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

witcher.3197:

Buff thieves so they don’t need shortbow? You mean, buff thieves without touching shortbow, so you’d give them more mobility and utility, while they can just choose to keep shortbow too because they have no reason not to?

Amazing ideas so far.

A sustain buff (Namely, the one we were promised but is yet unimplemented) would allow thieves to fight more effectively on point and might allow some newer builds to resurface that aren’t focused on “Get to point when it is uncontested, leave when someone comes.”

Maybe that will get some people to look at not taking shortbow, especially with DD coming up. Maybe not. fact of the matter is that at it stands now, backcap mule isn’t working.

Erzian.5218:

I win a 1v1 if I kill my opponent and I lose it if I die. Thief doesn’t die unless you over-commit but can still kill a variety of builds.
If you insist on taking nodes into account then I win the 1v1 if I can contest the node and as my (thief) mobility is higher than yours (non thief) I can contest it by simply being there before you. I already won. I can then just go somewhere else and as it takes longer to cap than to decap I have succeeded. I can even contest it by being invisible for a big as you then have to guess whether I go to your node or not and either way, I can do the opposite and win again.
Either you see 1v1 as contesting nodes at which thief is very good due to its mobility (which becomes obvious as in any top team brings one for that reason) or you see it as fighting, at which thief is very good as its worst match up is a draw. It you mix up both you are purposely making up a situation that makes thief look bad but by doing so you prove absolutely nothing as everyone can make up a large variety of situations in which class/build xy is bad. If you want to be good in that particular situation then you might be playing the wrong class, if you want to have what you can do now+be good in that situation then you are simply asking to be overpowered as thief has had and still has its place in the meta with a higher certainty than any other class.

Contesting =/= capping a point before someone else.

The very core of the issue is that because thief is good at sitting on unattended points, it should not be allowed to spec in such a way that allows it to challenge other classes while they are on the point.

I frankly don’t care how it’s done. What I’m concerned with is that I cannot be an effective thief in SPVP unless I perform that one task, however entertaining players may think it to be.

Being trapped in that one role is stupid. I don’t care about -why- we’re there or being able to instantly devour 1v1s because of the nature of my class. Damage is in a good place, but there’s no option to do anything outside of what people are touting as apparently proper thief gameplay (namely, cap and run), because thieves are not equipped to deal with the recently scaled damage output of the other classes.

And that’s the conversation this thread should be having instead of blatantly calling the class bad without awknowledging the fact that the class is used effectively in almost every top PvP team.

We’ve been having this same conversation for ages. The reason we do not care about top pvp teams using the class is because they have:

a.) accepted their role as backcap mule
b.) More than likely have a rehearsed strategy as well as on-the-fly teamspeak to maximize the effectiveness of that role.

In normal pvp where enemy actions are more spontaneous and your team less coherent, this role doesnt work.

That, coupled with the fact that we can’t do anything else, is precisely why we are saying thief is bad, if I am not insane.

That + the class descriptions saying we should at the very least excel at 1v1 just leaves anyone dissatisfied with the noncombatant role of the thief as it stands doubly frustrated.

Labjax.2465:

This thread makes me feel a little better about how hard I flopped last night when trying to complete the daily win. I got it eventually, but through sheer luck of getting a good team. I was going down faster than an analogy that wouldn’t be appropriate for this forum.

Granted, I picked up a build off MetaBattle and tried to learn it on the spot, but holy crap was I failing. They’re saying this stuff about hiding in stealth and I couldn’t even stay in stealth for more than a few seconds before all my CDs were blown and I was down on the ground.

I take it the skill cap for being good at Thief is pretty high.

This is essentially what even seasoned thieves go through. The current balance says that if a thief chooses to engage, be that contesting a point or anything that isnt +1, he’s going to melt. It isnt that the cap is high, its that thief is supposed to be anywhere people are not.

Which is pretty contrary to the whole concept of a thief might I add.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

That + the class descriptions saying we should at the very least excel at 1v1 just leaves anyone dissatisfied with the noncombatant role of the thief as it stands doubly frustrated.

The problem with class descriptions is that they are hardly correct. They are aimed to make a class look appealing and if you read all of them you might start wondering how they can all be masters at this and that. If you look at warrior, it is supposed to be a master of weaponry. Given that every class uses weapons and that other classes are not stated to be masters of weaponry, shouldn’t that mean that warrior is best at fighting? And why can’t a master of weaponry use a dagger or pistol? You should also consider that good does not equal excel but merely means above average but gives no information on how much better it actually is. It doesn’t even tell us compared to what or where. If you compare marauder or berserker builds, then thief is definitely good. If you compare celestial builds, then it is awful. As we do not have any precise information, the class description makes a poor basis for an argument.

If you are unhappy with thief, just play another class. If you are experienced at gw2, it should not be that difficult to learn something else. Personally I wonder how people can stay with the same class and build for several years, as it tends to bore me rather soon. Given the expansion release, this is probably the perfect time to start something new, as many people will have to adapt and get used to new builds and skills anyways

Nonetheless, I think that your image of thief is incorrect as there areseveral players who make the class work outside of tournaments and premades and most of them do not only neutralize nodes and run away, but also successfully join fights.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This is essentially what even seasoned thieves go through. The current balance says that if a thief chooses to engage, be that contesting a point or anything that isnt +1, he’s going to melt. It isnt that the cap is high, its that thief is supposed to be anywhere people are not.

Which is pretty contrary to the whole concept of a thief might I add.

If that’s true, I would say it’s not so much a contradiction of the thief concept, as it is a contradiction of what PvP is. If PvP is largely defined as combat between players, then a class whose primary role is to avoid combat is ill-fitting to that definition.

PvP is obviously not only combat, but combat is the primary determining factor. So a class whose role in combat is diminished is a class that is arguably worth less in casual scenarios. (I imagine competitive, team meta is its own beast entirely).

Wonder what these people will sound like 3 years later.

Thief sacrificed the ability to perform in team fights for their 1v1 prowless.

Anet removed the ability to win a point if someone was standing on it but did not return the ability to contribute equally in a team fight.

Currently if you are losing 1v1 fights to a thief in today’s meta YOU are the problem. Roll a thief and learn the class or practice fighting thieves.

Also let’s Institute a rule now. If you want to be taken seriously please state your main class and how you are having trouble with thieves.

Thanks

Labjax.2465:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This is essentially what even seasoned thieves go through. The current balance says that if a thief chooses to engage, be that contesting a point or anything that isnt +1, he’s going to melt. It isnt that the cap is high, its that thief is supposed to be anywhere people are not.

Which is pretty contrary to the whole concept of a thief might I add.

If that’s true, I would say it’s not so much a contradiction of the thief concept, as it is a contradiction of what PvP is. If PvP is largely defined as combat between players, then a class whose primary role is to avoid combat is ill-fitting to that definition.

PvP is obviously not only combat, but combat is the primary determining factor. So a class whose role in combat is diminished is a class that is arguably worth less in casual scenarios. (I imagine competitive, team meta is its own beast entirely).

That is the role they are given. And a role they have held since the beginning of the game. But the usefulness of the role is at ita strongest in casual play.

What would you change? What would you alter to achieve that change?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Labjax.2465:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This is essentially what even seasoned thieves go through. The current balance says that if a thief chooses to engage, be that contesting a point or anything that isnt +1, he’s going to melt. It isnt that the cap is high, its that thief is supposed to be anywhere people are not.

Which is pretty contrary to the whole concept of a thief might I add.

If that’s true, I would say it’s not so much a contradiction of the thief concept, as it is a contradiction of what PvP is. If PvP is largely defined as combat between players, then a class whose primary role is to avoid combat is ill-fitting to that definition.

PvP is obviously not only combat, but combat is the primary determining factor. So a class whose role in combat is diminished is a class that is arguably worth less in casual scenarios. (I imagine competitive, team meta is its own beast entirely).

That is the role they are given. And a role they have held since the beginning of the game. But the usefulness of the role is at ita strongest in casual play.

What would you change? What would you alter to achieve that change?

On the contrary, at the beginning of the game, other professions drop like flies in both sPvP and WvW to a Thief using either D/D or S/D. I know — I was there — it WAS fun while it lasted.

This “+1, decap, and run” nonsense was developed in response to the excessive nerfs that the Thief had received over time.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Labjax.2465:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This is essentially what even seasoned thieves go through. The current balance says that if a thief chooses to engage, be that contesting a point or anything that isnt +1, he’s going to melt. It isnt that the cap is high, its that thief is supposed to be anywhere people are not.

Which is pretty contrary to the whole concept of a thief might I add.

If that’s true, I would say it’s not so much a contradiction of the thief concept, as it is a contradiction of what PvP is. If PvP is largely defined as combat between players, then a class whose primary role is to avoid combat is ill-fitting to that definition.

PvP is obviously not only combat, but combat is the primary determining factor. So a class whose role in combat is diminished is a class that is arguably worth less in casual scenarios. (I imagine competitive, team meta is its own beast entirely).

That is the role they are given. And a role they have held since the beginning of the game. But the usefulness of the role is at ita strongest in casual play.

What would you change? What would you alter to achieve that change?

On the contrary, at the beginning of the game, other professions drop like flies in both sPvP and WvW to a Thief using either D/D or S/D. I know — I was there — it WAS fun while it lasted.

This “+1, decap, and run” nonsense was developed in response to the excessive nerfs that the Thief had received over time.

It wasn’t only the thief who changed . Afterwards mesmer was the only class other than thief that could run berserker successfully and that still remains. Enemies could out sustain your burst that was enough to make mesmers and thieves what they are today, and fresh air and zerker ranger what they are not.

Sidenti.6035:

T raw.4658:

Sidenti.6035:

I’ve said it before. I’ll say it again. The only way to have perfect balance is to have every player use the exact same character class, with the exact same gear, abilities and statistics.

Any time there is a choice to be had in PvP, there will be a clearly superior choice.

Obviously arena net are doing just this. Once D/D ele mobility eclipses that of a thief they’ll finally achieve it

Oh, nononononono! There will still be other classes! So, logically, in order to attain perfect balance all but one class must be removed.

Then, only one set of gear may be allowed into PvP matches, and everyone must be forced to use this equipment.

And THEN, only one set of abilities may be used, and everyone must be forced to use these abilities.

Of course, keep in mind that all of those abilities must be exactly the same, lest one ability be better than another, so essentially you get a basic attack button that does a fixed amount of damage no matter who or what you hit. Hit Sixpack_Bob? 500 damage. Hit Pancakez-r-awesomenstuff? 500 points of damage. Somehow manage to hit yourself? 500 points of damage.

There. Isn’t balance FUN?!

Reducto ad absurum much. No one is making the argument you are implying.

Its pretty clear post-June patch the thief class is at its nadir over the course of three years. Anyone not willing to see it is in deep denial. There are kitten ed few things another class cannot do better at this moment. Pointing to one or two things it might be worth using a thief to do in PvP and calling that enough ignores that in other modes you have been relegated to gutter tier.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Labjax.2465:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This is essentially what even seasoned thieves go through. The current balance says that if a thief chooses to engage, be that contesting a point or anything that isnt +1, he’s going to melt. It isnt that the cap is high, its that thief is supposed to be anywhere people are not.

Which is pretty contrary to the whole concept of a thief might I add.

If that’s true, I would say it’s not so much a contradiction of the thief concept, as it is a contradiction of what PvP is. If PvP is largely defined as combat between players, then a class whose primary role is to avoid combat is ill-fitting to that definition.

PvP is obviously not only combat, but combat is the primary determining factor. So a class whose role in combat is diminished is a class that is arguably worth less in casual scenarios. (I imagine competitive, team meta is its own beast entirely).

That is the role they are given. And a role they have held since the beginning of the game. But the usefulness of the role is at ita strongest in casual play.

What would you change? What would you alter to achieve that change?

Presumably better ability to handle direct fighting, with some tweaking done to ensure that tankier Thieves have weaker access to stealth (e.g. cannot be best of both worlds).

Mind you, I’m nothing akin to an expert on GW2 PvP or Thieves. I’m simply following the line of reasoning with the information that other people are giving me.