Guild Wars 2

exactly what ZLE said. We fight against thieves as other ppl do. I personally was insta killed by a steal-c&d-bs combo… now i’m working to find a solution to prevent that kind of death.
almost every class can instakill another glass cannon. Why only thieves are OP ?

Most people don’t seem to realize that the problem is not about BS or any other skill combination but about reaction time, preparation and tactical thinking.
GW2 is a fast paced game and it does have several combinations that can end a fight quickly if done right – and it has several possibilities to avoid such situations.

That begins well before any 1 on 1 even starts – by identifying your opponent. If you know what you’re up against, you can prepare yourself for the best counter tactics against that class/build you are likely to face. Thus you know what to do and when to do it, once it happens. Every class has it’s pros and cons. If you don’t think about what those are and just blindly rush into them, you will most likely lose. If you allow to fight and enemy on their terms – don’t be surprised if you have severe problems.

The key here is not to think about that you are dead in 3 seconds (honestly most classes can do that in one way or another) but to think about what you could have done to avoid it.
If you know you will face a thief using BS as the main damage ability, you know what to do. Avoid that BS damage at all cost – and yes, that means if you know your reaction is too slow and you don’t have any defensive abilities up – don’t engage. If you do engage however, know how to avoid or mitigate the damage that is likely to come. There are usually more than one way to solve such a problem – evade it, block it, trick him into using his stuff to early…

A fight is mostly won before it starts – unless one of the participants makes a grave mistake. And it usually is not won by one single skill in particular.

Btw. the thing that I would wanted fixed first is the delay between getting out of stealth and actually seeing the character again, which can occasionally be several seconds. That is WAY more annoying than any damage they do.

For any of your complaining about the nerfs to the thief; try rolling a class like Elementalist who’s supposed to have massive damage for the trade off of having the LOWEST armor and health in the game.

Enough said.

Loosifah.4739:

For any of your complaining about the nerfs to the thief; try rolling a class like Elementalist who’s supposed to have massive damage for the trade off of having the LOWEST armor and health in the game.

Enough said.

GW2 isn’t quite that simplified in class roles. “High damage for survivability loss” is a trait of fire attunement, but not so much of earth attunement or the profession as a whole.

Loosifah.4739:

For any of your complaining about the nerfs to the thief; try rolling a class like Elementalist who’s supposed to have massive damage for the trade off of having the LOWEST armor and health in the game.

Enough said.

I tried ele actually, after 4 rounds i was asking myself “why am i even bothering playing thief at all”.

Just saying.

I could care less about much much a thief does, hell I can match their damage even as a mesmer my only issue is my damage is spread over time. I can see a thief coming dead at me before they his stealth. I can throw my illusions dead at him but the moment they go into stealth my clones,illusions, won’t attack him. They may follow him for a few seconds(Bug I’m sure) But they don’t attack. And that’s how I time my dodges.

THIS is my MY ISSUE BELOW.

I can take a blow from a warrior who could melt people simply because I have skills that gets me out of stuns and pops a clone in my position. (After words my clone cripples him so I can get some breathing room) I still loose a chunk of hp, but I’m able to defend myself.

However when it comes to JUST the thief I literally have just a second to really do anything to evade. I’m limited to literally only dodges.

The issue regarding stealth that I mentioned earlier relates to a thief stealthing, then before they are even visible again to the enemy client they are able to inflict enough damage to win the fight.

That is the problem. And it largely ties into the rendering issue with large scale pvp.

Puru.4217:

Loosifah.4739:

For any of your complaining about the nerfs to the thief; try rolling a class like Elementalist who’s supposed to have massive damage for the trade off of having the LOWEST armor and health in the game.

Enough said.

I tried ele actually, after 4 rounds i was asking myself “why am i even bothering playing thief at all”.

Just saying.

Obvious troll. If you played an ele you’d know just how weak the class is currently.

Otaur.9268:

Kurow.6973:

Otaur.9268:

Kurow.6973:

Otaur.9268:

Kurow.6973:

…and the amount of options and skills a thief has at its disposal to escape from a zerg or a failed attempt as opposed to an ele is……???

Yes, let’s also ignore the fact that there’s numerous number of aoe skills at an ele’s disposal too.

Just for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7U45lv_uY0

Seriously…people need to get better. That will fix the thief issue. Whining and kittening, asking for nerfs, simply because one cannot play a class to its potential and gets wrecked by another class, is not the solution.

Spend less time qqing on forums about dying to a thief, and perhaps people can improve on their skills.

So you go to the 1 guy (daphoenix) who is fully geared, and tanky as can be for your video proof of how good an Elementalist can be? You fail good sir, now go youtube some thief videos, and try playing an Elementalist before acting like you know one.

…and you, and your kind go to all the thieves that are fully geared and complete glass cannons for your qq.

To add to that, I do play an elementalist.

Shut up! Take your qq elsewhere.

PS: The fact that you’re so ignorant that you dismiss a pretty good elementalist as proof that elementalists are capable of being very good if played right, just because he’s geared, is not just laughable, but tells us a lot about yourself.

The fact ur saying a full glass cannon thief should have more survivability than a full toughness ele makes ur argument fail. The point I was making is a full glass cannon ele dies in 1 or 2 hits. A full glass cannon thief can live. Even as full toughness on an ele oir dmg sux and we get little survivability from it. Again ur comparisons fail.

Did I ever say that? Stop talking out of your kitten.

Wow…no wonder you’re here talking about nerfing something that needs no nerfs.

A full glass cannon thief doesn’t die in 1-2 hits? Seriously SHUT UP AND LEAVE!

PS: Learn to play an elementalist properly. They have the BEST escape tools for WvW (glass cannon or not makes no difference). Also, a properly played elementalist has more survivability and utility than a thief trying to stealth and run any day of the week. It really makes me sad that so many people fail at playing elementalist in this game.

ok first of all, I never said nerf thief, I am all against nerfing. My point was u posted a defensively specced ele as proof elementalist have more survivability. Yet ur whole argument is not to nerf a cannon build. Of course a defensive spec ele is going to survive a lil longer. But we have to spec defensively. Ur survivabilty as thief comes from using ur initiative and stealth correctly, not from limiting urself to a certain build. Sorry if I make u mad but calm down and actually read what Im saying before raging. I never wanted a nerf. Also sorry if typos sending this from phone. On a side note took a level 4 thief to WvW using shortbow #5 is like having 3 lightning flashes in row + stealth to remove target from myself. Thats a hell of a survivability even at level 4.

Do you ever read what’s actually posted?…or just fabricate something out of thin air that you expect someone to have typed?…and then go about responding to this new fabricated response you believe the person typed.

I’m not “mad”, in fact I’ve been laughing way too hard for my own good at your responses…kinda like this one!

Loosifah.4739:

Puru.4217:

Loosifah.4739:

For any of your complaining about the nerfs to the thief; try rolling a class like Elementalist who’s supposed to have massive damage for the trade off of having the LOWEST armor and health in the game.

Enough said.

I tried ele actually, after 4 rounds i was asking myself “why am i even bothering playing thief at all”.

Just saying.

Obvious troll. If you played an ele you’d know just how weak the class is currently.

I play an ele, and honestly…it’s a lot of fun, and I believe it has a lot more durability, and a wider range of skills (so obvious) than thief any day. The class is NOT weak.

Bad players however, feel elementalist is weak because they treat it as an elementalist from other games: squishy, but 1 shots people/groups of people. This is NOT the elementalist of GW2. Wrong game!!! Go play another game if you expect to play those kinds of elementalists.

Elementalists of GW2 is probably the best class in the game if played right.

PS: Go ahead, claim that I’m trolling…you’ll only be fooling yourself.

My main character is an elementalist, and I love the class. That said; it doesn’t negate the fact that though elementalist has versatility; the damage output of the class is pathetic.

Some posters here are right though, thieves will get nerfed, there is no way to justify the downgrades to the other classes if thieves remain as they are. Thieves may be “right” on their own, they’re not that overpowered in general, they’re just way too good compared to other professions. Anet said they want fights to last something like 30-40 seconds, while a thief will end a fight in half a second, and a lot of people are getting seriously frustrated getting instagibbed by the army of people who all jumped on the thief bandwagon. Hitting two buttons to kill someone in half a second, may suit the lore of the thief, but it causes too much frustration.

The problem is, that there is no way to counter this.. there’s no way anyone can react against a mug, precasted C&D and BS.. it happens instantly and there is nothing in this game that any class can do to counter this. So this issue is not a case of L2P or of finding a way to counter, since there is no counter.. you cannot dodge something that happens instantly and without any kind of graphical warning and from 1200 range. Often times the thief won’t even render on your screen at that range.

Zsymon.8457:

Some posters here are right though, thieves will get nerfed, there is no way to justify the downgrades to the other classes if thieves remain as they are. Thieves may be “right” on their own, they’re not that overpowered in general, they’re just way too good compared to other professions. Anet said they want fights to last something like 30-40 seconds, while a thief will end a fight in half a second, and a lot of people are getting seriously frustrated getting instagibbed by the army of people who all jumped on the thief bandwagon. Hitting two buttons to kill someone in half a second, may suit the lore of the thief, but it causes too much frustration.

This.

No class was meant to kill someone in the speed a thief can.

You are fooling yourselves if you think this class isn’t going to be nerfed into the dirt.

If they use haste, they can kill someone and finish them before haste ends, since haste speeds up the finishing move as well, so there is not even a way to get up from the downed state. You’re walking down the path, and within two and a half seconds your character lies dead and defeated on the ground, not even downed, but completely dead, the thief still stealthed (cuz of a bug) and out of your screen before you can even see who got you.

I’m sure this is satisfying for the thief, but if it happens too often and they realize there is no counter for it with any profession, it will cause the victims to quit playing, especially considering the huge amounts of people rolling a thief to instagib people.

Zsymon.8457:

The problem is, that there is no way to counter this.. there’s no way anyone can react against a mug, precasted C&D and BS.. it happens instantly and there is nothing in this game that any class can do to counter this. So this issue is not a case of L2P or of finding a way to counter, since there is no counter.. you cannot dodge something that happens instantly and without any kind of graphical warning and from 1200 range. Often times the thief won’t even render on your screen at that range.

The problem with this statement is that all three of those skills happen in about the span of 1.5-2 seconds.

Last time i checked, the average human reaction time is less than a second (about half a second i think, maybe a little less). That’s why 1.5-2 second stuns feel like forever.

Thing is, the key point to these “instagib” builds is that it requires them to keep you in place to make the whole backstab process quick and efficient.

If you anticipate and notice a basilisk or devourer venom you know they are getting ready to pounce.

Dodge or invuln if you can. If you don’t and they manage to get that first mug and snare / stone, Use that handy stun break of yours and THEN use your survival utilities.

I’m not saying that our class shouldn’t be nerfed. I’m just saying that the whining is a bit exaggerated. Anyone can look OP if they go up against someone that doesn’t bother to adapt and try to consider what he’s up against.

I’ve said it a million times the things that need to be tweaked / nerfed are quickness and Assassin’s Signet.

What if quickness and assassin’s signet was a much smaller buff based on a fixed number of abilities?

Examples:

Quickness: Increases IAS of the next 4 abilities used by 33% (down from 100%) duration increased to 8 seconds. Class utility based Drawbacks remain as long as the quickness is up so either duration ends or 4 abilities are used. Does not stack.
Time warp would still be viable as it still effects allies as well, and has no downside. Also the fact it does not stack makes the pulsing of time warp balanced.

Proc based quickness like from talents or sigils will have to have their durations/ proc chance bumped up a tad as well.

Assassin’s signet:
Increase the effect (Damage/healing/Condition damage) and range of the next 3 abilities by 33%. duration 10 seconds. cooldown remains unchanged. (buffed range is rounded up EX: 900 will now be 1200 instead of 1197)

With these changes keep in mind the self root on pistol whip will have to be removed. The ability is nothing without the 100% quickness, and a self root makes 0 (ZERO) sense on a mobility based class. If the stun is too much without a self root, then change the stun to a daze. If the invulnerability frames are too much without a self root, then take it away and make the base attack speed a bit faster.

The thing I’m missing with thieves is a skill filter. I really don’t see myself as a bad player and I know when I lost because of my own mistakes.

But look, if you miss to dodge a Bull’s Charge you can still use a stunbreaker, and if the warrior is bad, he won’t even hit you with his 100b and by that give you a free win basically.

But if you’re half hp (and I’m not talking glass cannon) until you even notice someone’s there, and in the next second you’re getting Heartseeker’d into the ground, knowing that this player only pressed 3 buttons (autohit included), you begin to think if that’s the way PvP is meant to be.

Don’t get me wrong – I’m not whining. I don’t have a problem with this hammerer-type of Thief, because I know my way around. Thieves just need to get that hard feedback. Have those moments where they can say “wow, now I lost because I really kittened up”. But you can’t do much wrong with hammering one button, right?

TL,DR: Make the bad thieves worse and reward the good ones

booyah.3825:

If you cant beat em, join em. If the devs think one ability doing 9k is fair, use it yourself. If/when you figure out what kills you as thief, you’ll be able to play AGAINST them that much better.

Yeah, 9k damage is so unfair. 9.9k is alright though, right? No buffs there other than what you see. Pretty standard glass cannon spec.

I find it inappropriate that thieves accused of dealing too much damage always point to warriors. Those classes are indefinitely different, although Pistol Whip might feel a lot like 100b.

Arian.2850:

I find it inappropriate that thieves accused of dealing too much damage always point to warriors. Those classes are indefinitely different, although Pistol Whip might feel a lot like 100b.

They really aren’t all that different, and you would be surprised how often you can use Eviscerate (which doesn’t require stealth or being behind someone, by the way). You may also be surprised to know that most Thieves Backstab don’t even crit as hard as Eviscerate. I had to go out of my way and use things I wouldn’t normally use to get it this high.

In order for me to get it to the levels you guys are claiming, I would have to use Assassination Signet. That tells me the problem isn’t Backstab. There are two problems currently. Assassination Signet needs to go and using Steal to interupt your C&D and teleport instantly to your target and land your C&D setting you up for your Assassination Signet loaded Backstab (all happens pretty much instantly) are the problems.

Any damage a warrior can do can be avoided by dodging or blocking, since none of their moves are instant. The problem with thieves is that there is simple no time to dodge or block or even use abilities such as endure pain, because the onslaught is instantaneous.

Mug is instant with a 900-1200 range, meaning you will never know the presence of the thief before he comes, often the thief won’t even render on your screen at that range, and when they precast C&D the entire combo happens in less than a second.

Then when they’ve hasted, you’re downed in less than a second, and dead two and a half seconds, since the finishing takes two seconds under haste.

No profession in the game has any tools to counter this instant death. The only way to survive is having a lot of health and toughness, but even then you won’t have much health left, and a few heartseekers will finish you off, which will come very fast because the thief is still hasted.

Have less than 18K+ hp and you’re dead (this is not glass cannon, which means the thief will kill almost anyone like this, not just glass cannons).. and if you have the most possible, like 29K, then your dps will be so low that you won’t down the thief before the heartseekers down you, and they come hard since you’re low health.

First I thought thief wasn’t overpowered, but I have to take that opinion back, it’s just not balanced. Fights are meant to last more than 3 seconds.. and like I said a thief will not just down glass cannons in under 3 seconds, they will down & kill anyone except full tanks like that.. and tanks will still go down to the heartseekers, since they cannot do enough damage to put pressure on the thief with their measly ~400 dps.

Zsymon.8457:

Any damage a warrior can do can be avoided by dodging or blocking, since none of their moves are instant. The problem with thieves is that there is simple no time to dodge or block or even use abilities such as endure pain, because the onslaught is instantaneous.

Mug is instant with a 900-1200 range, meaning you will never know the presence of the thief before he comes, often the thief won’t even render on your screen at that range, and when they precast C&D the entire combo happens in less than a second.

Then when they’ve hasted, you’re downed in less than a second, and dead two and a half seconds, since the finishing takes two seconds under haste.

No profession in the game has any tools to counter this instant death. The only way to survive is having a lot of health and toughness, but even then you won’t have much health left, and a few heartseekers will finish you off, which will come in under a second because the thief is still hasted.

Have less than 18K+ hp and you’re dead (this is not glass cannon, which means the thief will kill almost anyone like this, not just glass cannons).. and if you have the most possible, like 29K, then your dps will be so low that you won’t down the thief before the heartseekers down you, and they come hard since you’re low health.

First I thought thief wasn’t overpowered, but I have to take that opinion back, it’s just not balanced. Fights are meant to last more than 3 seconds.. and like I said a thief will not just down glass cannons in under 3 seconds, they will down & kill anyone except full tanks like that.. and tanks will still go down to the heartseekers, since they cannot do enough damage to put pressure on the thief with their measly ~400 dps.

Re-read my post. Backstab is not the problem and neither is the Thief class as a whole. There are a few things causing problems that should be addressed, but the Backstab skill itself is not one of them.

The problem is not just the insane damage, it is that there is no counter at all, due to mug being not only instant but also having up to 1200 range.. on top of that mug can daze, completely prohibiting anything you try even if you can react in under half a second.. which can’t be expected of the average player.

Against squishies you don’t even need C&D, just a stealth-traited mug + BS is enough to instagib them. Literally all the thief does then is tap F1 and 1 and he wins, having done well over 10K undodgable, unblockable damage from 1200 range.

You don’t understand Zsymon. Mug does a little bit of damage (way more specs than Backstab rely on it). In order for steal to stealth you, you have to trait for it (most don’t), in order for steal to have 1200 range you have to trait for it (most don’t). The reason this combo is so deadly is because Cloak and Dagger can be interrupted mid cast (pre casting) by Steal, which then instantly puts you in range to land the C&D and then use your Assassination Signet Backstab (for 150% damage thanks to Sig). This damage all happens in about a second. That is the problem, not Backstab. Most Thieves with specs that don’t revolve around trying to make Backstab ridiculous, don’t hit that hard with Backstab. If you nerf the skill itself, which is not the problem, it just makes Backstab useless for anyone but the ones trying to make it ridiculous.

So give us Diffrent skills on weapeon sets then, so that backstab and few other builds warent only ones viable. S/p only damaging skill is PW and autoattack, w/o haste its useless in PvP. S/d thx to flanking strike beeing soooo messed up with its pathing most powerfull damage you can pull off is !!! autoattack!! imagine your autoattack beeing most powerfull attack. D/D if your oponent is 100% hp you need some way to drop him below 50% for heartseeker to be effective, what ways you got to do it ? no gap closer(innitiating with steal is stupid as it makes you lose 3 innitative, unless you precast C&D, which eventualy leaves you with best option to backstab) and closing gaps with hearseeker is stupid as by the time you arrive to ur oponent ur 0 initiative done 0 dmg. no good ranged dmg,(the trow dagger is rly bad against single target, and is only good for criple 1on1), which leads to conclusion you need to pack another weapeon or a utility slot with gap closer, or damage booster like haste for sword combos. Making those weapeons only viable if we set them up with most utility assosieted with them. But then we end up beeing 1 trick ponys. Backstab nubs or PW spammers, but our weapeons are made like that, if you want to lower our spamable skill damage remake our class first so we got an option not to spam skills. Only thing i would agree to remake is Assassins signet’s active effect into +25% dmg for next 4 skills or something like that.

P.S. I personaly play Sword and dagger Boon removal and daze build, with haste+flanking strike spam you can tottaly blow away all of your targets boons. If you lower haste’s boost in speed, you need to make highter basic damage for all sword skills, and fix pathing + cast speed of flaking strike so to make it viable in Tpvp, as any person can dodge it, in those times when i dont fly off on my own thx to messed up pathing, of it.

Asum.4960:

ArchNemesis.4897:

You could outright WRITE OUT how to counter it, it won’t make a difference. People are here to post and complain, not read and learn. If they were willing to learn how to counter they wouldn’t be kittenposting in the first place.

It’s unfortunate but the fact of the matter is gamers nowadays are spoiled brats that want instant gratification. When they don’t get it, they whine and cry like those little children at the supermarket.

Sadly thats the problem here, and in the new gaming generation in general.

Also, bladie, please stop acting like you have the wisdom and truth given to you, and everybody else (and their opinions) are just pure speculation, even more so since you don’t even seem to understand backstab Thief, what they have to do and which skills and traits they take.

Your biased statements like "stop fighting (..you know you are OP) " are just disgraceful towards the people who actually try to help here, explaining how a Thief actually works and how to counter them.
We don’t fight to not get nerfed, we don’t try to justify the current state and we don’t secretly think that the class we like is OP, all we do here is trying to help people to fight a balanced class, by telling them how the mechanics actually work, and how to counter them.
Nobody likes overnerfs, and thats what it would be to nerf a balanced class.

And if you continue to cry for nerfs for skills most backstab Thieves don’t even use (with the reasoning “what would it hurt”, really?), with the purpose to nerf backstab Thieves, simply because you can’t play against them, then you are honestly making a fool of yourself.

No no no and no. Just stop with your selective reading. Take a moment, breathe, and calm down.
1. 1st post was somewhat a dark humor post. I never said BS was OP and I never accused players of knowing it was OP. Stop putting words in my mouth. All I said is that we all know that BS (the setup along with BS) does a considerable amount of damage to the point where we know it can be potentially targeted for a nerf.
2. When I said, “i dont mind nerfing BS” Means, “i dont mind nerfing BS” It doesn’t mean im crying for a nerf, it means, “i dont mind nerfing BS” (if it was to ever happen).
3. IF BS ever gets nerfed, it’s not going to get overnerfed. Stop being so dramatic.
4. We here, We there, We everywhere. Dude, you represent nobody except for yourself in your posts. And you sure don’t represent me (another Thief)
5. I offered options and compromise to if there was ever to be a nerf (stating earlier that there’s a good possibility). When I mentioned the 100% critical while stealthed, it was an option that they can nerf to make it seem like BS has been nerfed. You know, a backdoor out of here, get out of jail free ticket, decoy, scapegoat, etc etc. But if i was seriously against BS, i’d say assassin signet.
6. Stated earlier, I don’t mind BS thieves, I don’t think they’re OP at all. I’ve only lost to one BS thief and that’s because i went into sPVP, testing out a condition dmg thieves (for the first time) (and yes, they are pretty kittening fun). In fact, as stated before (again) I enjoy using BS as a secondary finisher. I just don’t like investing everything into a pure Bser (not my playstyle). Which goes back to why I don’t mind BS thieves.

Ashanor.5319:

Backstab is not the problem and neither is the Thief class as a whole. There are a few things causing problems that should be addressed, but the Backstab skill itself is not one of them.

[…]The reason this combo is so deadly is because Cloak and Dagger can be interrupted mid cast (pre casting) by Steal, which then instantly puts you in range to land the C&D and then use your Assassination Signet Backstab (for 150% damage thanks to Sig). This damage all happens in about a second. That is the problem, not Backstab. […]

You keep repeating that, but I don’t buy it. I’m pretty sure those 2-hammering thieves didn’t evolve to actually do something so fast and so hard to coordinate. This discussion is not about pro PvP, it’s about beginner to advanced PvP, and people want a way to win against thieves who don’t really do much besides spamming one button.

No offense. I like the class, play it myself, but when I see the enemies (or myself) spam just the one thing, and see it being that effective, I know that something needs to be done.

The problem with that due to the initiative system a thief spamming a certain ability is no different than any other profession doing a “2,3,4,5 -weaponswap- 2,3,4,5” and being effective, which most of them can. They’re equally mindless uses of all of the professions’ given resources by playing whack-a-mole but one has a repeated graphic.

If you want to argue that the skill floor in GW2 is too low and most professions can get by just spamming whatever is on their bar then you’ve got a somewhat valid point, but not really something that needs to change.

Quickeness should be removed from the game. It’s the #1 cause of all nerf calls.

Assassin’s Signet on-use ability should be completely re-designed. Thiefs don’t need anymore burst nor do we need a nerf to our sustained DPS because of PVP nubs.

If quickness needs to be removed tell me, how many builds are gonna be gone from viable pvp ? HB gone PW gone S/D boon removal with haste and dazes build gone too… Unload sux even quickness dont help. Whats left ? all spec into backstab ? for quickness removal all damage on our skills needs to be improved, all i can say. Like none of sword builds are viable w/o quickness not minding that its autoattack is most damaging for thiefs … which says how weak it is.

Arian.2850:

I find it inappropriate that thieves accused of dealing too much damage always point to warriors. Those classes are indefinitely different, although Pistol Whip might feel a lot like 100b.

Aye, that’s true, Warrior has more armor and better self-heals. Quite different.

Stin.9781:

If quickness needs to be removed tell me, how many builds are gonna be gone from viable pvp ?

All the ones that are now? Most of the builds that absolutely require activated quickness are terrible and gimmicky. I wouldn’t miss it. There are utilities that are genuinely balanced and integral to professions, haste is not one of these.

You do understand thiefs sword/X is not pvp viable then? since in both builds w/o quickness most powerfull skill is… quess what basic attack ! Oh ye i feel like spaming basic attack to kill someone.
Truth is before removing haste they need to fix certain builds for certain weapeons, as only haste makes those weapeons viable in spvp.

Stin.9781:

You do understand thiefs sword/X is not pvp viable then? since in both builds w/o quickness most powerfull skill is… quess what basic attack ! Oh ye i feel like spaming basic attack to kill someone.

Newsflash: Not all thief weapon sets follow (or should follow) a standardized template. There’s nothing wrong with the basic attack combo being the best option for most attacks. Weapon sets with more favorable standard attacks lend themselves to more initiative-efficient setups that hang just under maximum initiative. These conditions lend themselves to a more reactive playstyle than the proactive one that, say, d/d benefits from.

Besides, S/D has dancing dagger for heavy burst damage in the same situations where S/D is heavily favorable (target rich environments).

Tulisin.6945:

Stin.9781:

You do understand thiefs sword/X is not pvp viable then? since in both builds w/o quickness most powerfull skill is… quess what basic attack ! Oh ye i feel like spaming basic attack to kill someone.

Newsflash: Not all thief weapon sets follow (or should follow) a standardized template. There’s nothing wrong with the basic attack combo being the best option for most attacks. Weapon sets with more favorable standard attacks lend themselves to more initiative-efficient setups that hang just under maximum initiative. These conditions lend themselves to a more reactive playstyle than the proactive one that, say, d/d benefits from.

Besides, S/D has dancing dagger for heavy burst damage in the same situations where S/D is heavily favorable (target rich environments).

Yes part is true, But it is not viable as a roamer thief to have low damage weapeon. I dont spec as dps even i spec as rly fast support with boon removal plus daze, with slow animation of Flanking strike no idiots gonna get hit by it. Trow dagger is ok, but this whole weapeon set as daze/de-boon loses all its value. I dare you to land 2-3x Flanking strikes in a row w/o haste. In haste i manage to hit like 5x and with steal remove 2x more boons. kitten retaliation guardians and other boon dependant builds heavily. no way im gonna ht it on ele running around me like crazy w/o haste more then 1 time after initial snare. im forced to take venoms.

Stin.9781:

Tulisin.6945:

Stin.9781:

You do understand thiefs sword/X is not pvp viable then? since in both builds w/o quickness most powerfull skill is… quess what basic attack ! Oh ye i feel like spaming basic attack to kill someone.

Newsflash: Not all thief weapon sets follow (or should follow) a standardized template. There’s nothing wrong with the basic attack combo being the best option for most attacks. Weapon sets with more favorable standard attacks lend themselves to more initiative-efficient setups that hang just under maximum initiative. These conditions lend themselves to a more reactive playstyle than the proactive one that, say, d/d benefits from.

Besides, S/D has dancing dagger for heavy burst damage in the same situations where S/D is heavily favorable (target rich environments).

Yes part is true, But it is not viable as a roamer thief to have low damage weapeon. I dont spec as dps even i spec as rly fast support with boon removal plus daze, with slow animation of Flanking strike no idiots gonna get hit by it. Trow dagger is ok, but this whole weapeon set as daze/de-boon loses all its value. I dare you to land 2-3x Flanking strikes in a row w/o haste.

Flanking Strike is alright for evade and major boon removal (getting rid of swiftness, >520might stacks, etc.), but the fact that you would even try to spam it makes it obvious that you’re trying to fit S/D into the same template as other weapon sets where the dual skill is meant to be repeatedly used for burst.

That said, Flanking Strike is weak and could use a rework, but I’d rather not see it become a peer to other dual skills for spammable damage.

Tulisin.6945:

Stin.9781:

You do understand thiefs sword/X is not pvp viable then? since in both builds w/o quickness most powerfull skill is… quess what basic attack ! Oh ye i feel like spaming basic attack to kill someone.

Newsflash: Not all thief weapon sets follow (or should follow) a standardized template. There’s nothing wrong with the basic attack combo being the best option for most attacks. Weapon sets with more favorable standard attacks lend themselves to more initiative-efficient setups that hang just under maximum initiative. These conditions lend themselves to a more reactive playstyle than the proactive one that, say, d/d benefits from.

Besides, S/D has dancing dagger for heavy burst damage in the same situations where S/D is heavily favorable (target rich environments).

lol this guy again. Don’t bother he is a troll. You can check his post history, but You can also tell just by the fist sentence.

i got a good laugh from saying it is okay if the initiative free auto attack is the strongest. Why have initiative then? There is not a single ability in any thief weapon set that has enough conditions/lockdown to make up for having #1 chain being the strongest damage in ANY set. Maybe if PW just hit once and quick without self rooting and did a 2s daze or 1s+ stun but low damage, or if Headshot did a 5 seconds or more chill or something… just maybe

I hear a lot of crying over Assassin’s Signet recently…and frankly this makes me lawl. The skill is used for a boost on a SINGLE attack, with a pretty long cooldown. I mean honestly…are people serious when they cry over this?

There’s NOTHING wrong with neither Assassin’s Signet, nor Backstab…or anything for that matter on the thief atm. People are just BAD! They have the reaction times of a sloth and are too stupid to carry stun/immobilize breakers. These people DESERVE to get steam rolled. Solution is to get BETTER…not nerf a class or skill that needs no nerf.

Backstab thieves are EASY to counter. Honestly, if you’re still dying to backstab, it’s because you’re BAD! That’s all there is to it. If you’re dying because of your own latency or fps, that’s YOUR problem, NOT the class’s.

Can we get a mod to close this thread already please!

So you don’t have Assassin’s Signet on your build then? And you don’t run a backstab build because you find yourself being too easily countered?

Tulisin.6945:

Stin.9781:

Tulisin.6945:

Stin.9781:

You do understand thiefs sword/X is not pvp viable then? since in both builds w/o quickness most powerfull skill is… quess what basic attack ! Oh ye i feel like spaming basic attack to kill someone.

Newsflash: Not all thief weapon sets follow (or should follow) a standardized template. There’s nothing wrong with the basic attack combo being the best option for most attacks. Weapon sets with more favorable standard attacks lend themselves to more initiative-efficient setups that hang just under maximum initiative. These conditions lend themselves to a more reactive playstyle than the proactive one that, say, d/d benefits from.

Besides, S/D has dancing dagger for heavy burst damage in the same situations where S/D is heavily favorable (target rich environments).

Yes part is true, But it is not viable as a roamer thief to have low damage weapeon. I dont spec as dps even i spec as rly fast support with boon removal plus daze, with slow animation of Flanking strike no idiots gonna get hit by it. Trow dagger is ok, but this whole weapeon set as daze/de-boon loses all its value. I dare you to land 2-3x Flanking strikes in a row w/o haste.

Flanking Strike is alright for evade and major boon removal (getting rid of swiftness, >520might stacks, etc.), but the fact that you would even try to spam it makes it obvious that you’re trying to fit S/D into the same template as other weapon sets where the dual skill is meant to be repeatedly used for burst.

That said, Flanking Strike is weak and could use a rework, but I’d rather not see it become a peer to other dual skills for spammable damage.

WHAT BURST? I just said i use it to remove boons, i use steal to rip away 2 boons and signet to take away boon 60% chance on critical. If i cant use flanking strike fast(just first hit) i cannot take away all boons . But why the fak to use S/D then why not just D/D and backstab which if quickness is removed will take 50+% of players due to others builds non-viable endgame pvp,

Cribbage.2056:

So you don’t have Assassin’s Signet on your build then? And you don’t run a backstab build because you find yourself being too easily countered?

Yes! When I’m on my thief, I don’t specifically “run backstab”. However, backstab is always there if I have dagger in MH. It’s a weapon skill. People need to stop kittening and get better.

If backstab dependent thieves were so hard to counter, I wouldn’t be killing every single one of them that jumps me.

As for AS, when did I say I don’t use AS? Ofc I use AS when it’s necessary (while running a pure physical damage build for example). It’s a utility skill. Doesn’t make it OP just because I use it. AS is a one time use in most fights. By your logic, every single utility you equip is OP.

People seem to lack serious logic when qqing about classes and skills it seems.

PS: Backstab IS easily countered by GOOD players. Which there’s a serious lack of. However, there’s a huge presence of BAD players. If someone runs backstab and manages to kill BAD players, then bravo for them…there’s a lot of them.
However, this does NOT justify any kind of nerfing.

You do understand quickness is used for quick damage dealing conditions stacking or DEBUFFING. Which i as playing bloody rare supportish mediocre dps thief will lose withouth haste. I even use Mesmer runes for +33% daze on swords stealth attack 2.66 daze and 1.33 second daze on steal etc 4 seconds daze= you and your friend can kitten the pesky guardian/ele who is disabled with no boons(what my haste just let me remove) to defend himself, hes instagibed by 2 of us. Ok nerf Quickness will be only dagger MH build viable

Question:

You see a thief coming at you as say, a guardian he’s making a beeline for you clearly and you have a second or two to react

How many horrific counters do you have to his abilities that will leave him wondering why he bothered?

Hellkaiser.6025:

Question:

You see a thief coming at you as say, a guardian he’s making a beeline for you clearly and you have a second or two to react

How many horrific counters do you have to his abilities that will leave him wondering why he bothered?

You realize that backstab thieves precast BV and jump in with steal (mug). Therefore, the instant he uses steal, you dodge FORWARD! BV is wasted, and C&D in 8/10 times will miss (wasted initiative…wasted BV). If I have to say anymore regarding why this is the case, then you need to go learn the guardian class.

if you steal daze and manage to pull off C&D with attack from behind to daze up to 4 seconds, and manage to pull it off 2 times you can tottaly disable him for 7 seconds, After that, if you dont have it dead or he dont let u to pull of third C&D and daze(only lame ones would allow that) you got no counter to guardian, He shied up in bubble and heal to full waiting for his backup to arrive.

I have a 80 thief and engineer. My thief is my main and I really enjoy playing the class.

I think that a backstab nerf would be fine, but it would have to be balanced for lesser geared thieves such as me. In other words, nerf the top end but not all thieves. I do think, however, that the nerf should be accompanied by a survivability buff to help thieves in large zerg combat. Maybe an innate protection against AOE damage or AOE cc.

People have figured out at this point that when a thief stealths, they should just aoe the area. I remember that Rogues in wow had AOE protection to help out with their squishiness as well. Maybe somekind of reduced AOE damage and CC time when stealthed?

“You realize that backstab thieves precast BV and jump in with steal (mug). Therefore, the instant he uses steal, you dodge FORWARD! BV is wasted, and C&D in 8/10 times will miss (wasted initiative…wasted BV). If I have to say anymore regarding why this is the case, then you need to go learn the guardian class.”

^ Exactly

With the nerf to BV now it’s even EASIER for them to make a joke of a thief.

willy wonka condescending face

“oh you got gibbed by a backstab build after BV’s nerf did you?

gee, you must really pack some non dps stunbreaker utilities and not stack signets"

Widget.4279:

I have a 80 thief and engineer. My thief is my main and I really enjoy playing the class.

I think that a backstab nerf would be fine, but it would have to be balanced for lesser geared thieves such as me. In other words, nerf the top end but not all thieves. I do think, however, that the nerf should be accompanied by a survivability buff to help thieves in large zerg combat. Maybe an innate protection against AOE damage or AOE cc.

People have figured out at this point that when a thief stealths, they should just aoe the area. I remember that Rogues in wow had AOE protection to help out with their squishiness as well. Maybe somekind of reduced AOE damage and CC time when stealthed?

Honestly, if backstab gets a nerf, so should other glass cannon builds, especially warriors who can deal more damage with less requirements. However, this shouldn’t even have to occur considering a nerf in this case is NOT justified.

ANet should not be nerfing to make it easier for BAD players. Instead they should be leaving it as it is, forcing these BAD players to improve their skills and knowledge about classes, allowing them to develop counters to builds they have problems with. Not just handing them cookies because of their failure. In failure, there’s a lesson to be learned.

I have not read any of the responses in this thread, but just to chime in: Backstab needs to be nerfed (and it likely will be.)

My Warrior has close to 2.1k toughness and 27k hp. Backstab thieves that specc glass cannon can instantly teleport onto him from 1,200 range (right into an auto-stealth) and proceed to crit him for half of his hp in one single attack. As this happens my Warrior is also instantly “turned to stone” (stunned) and then rooted; this all happens within the space of about 2-3 seconds and is not even remotely RNG reliant. This is unbalanced, simple as that.

Of course you could counter argue by saying that the Thief is glass cannon, and thus you can kill him just as fast, but we all know that this is simply not true; a pure glass cannon thief is perfectly capable of surviving on the battlefield for an extended period of time.

How? Stealths, stun-breaks, teleports, and to a lesser extend other forms of mobility such as swiftness; a Thief can linger on the outskirts of any battle and when the opportunity presents itself they can teleport in and 1-shot any squishy. If their target happens to be a tanky profession/build (much like my Warrior) they will still crit for approximately half their victims health.

But what happens next? Well, there are different options available to the Thief, none of which include being killed by the enemy (unless they are incredibly unlucky or have vital abilities on cooldown.) The Thief can for example re-stealth and disengage, linger again and wait for another opportunity, or they could simply re-stealth and burst the next viable target. But what’s that, your stealth did not allow you to make a clean exit? Well try popping your other stealth, and if this fails you could always use your 1,200 range double-stun-breaking-double-teleport, or simply switch out to your shortbow and use that to teleport.

Now, I am using absolutely no hyperbole; everything here is simple fact. Yes it is true that things will not always go in the Thieves favour, however on a far more consistent basis it will, and the end result is basically a class who can lock a target in place (depending on stability/CC breakers of course,) and crit them (100% guaranteed) for anything from about half of their health to all of their health. Then the Thief can happily evade retaliation until the next viable opportunity presents itself.

This is very clearly imbalanced, however I welcome any other counter arguments. Maybe there is something I am missing?

Regardless, needs to be changed.

Vrak.2193:

I have not read any of the responses in this thread, but just to chime in: Backstab needs to be nerfed (and it likely will be.)

My Warrior has close to 2.1k toughness and 27k hp. Backstab thieves that specc glass cannon can instantly teleport onto him from 1,200 range (right into an auto-stealth) and proceed to crit him for half of his hp in one single attack.

Stopped reading there and came to the conclusion you’re one of these clueless ones that come here to qq about something you have no idea what you’re talking about.

PS: Just to add to the injury…when I’m on my warrior, and I see a thief…I drool, because I know it’s an effortless kill for me. Especially if they’re a glass cannon.