Guild Wars 2

It’s pretty annoying, really, with S/P nerfed we can only rely on Backstab for spike damage. If even that gets nerfed, well my thief is going to become amphibious and to stay under water through the whole WvW time. Coz obviously there won’t be anything to do on the surface.

Vrak.2193:

I have not read any of the responses in this thread, but just to chime in: Backstab needs to be nerfed (and it likely will be.)

My Warrior has close to 2.1k toughness and 27k hp. Backstab thieves that specc glass cannon can instantly teleport onto him from 1,200 range (right into an auto-stealth) and proceed to crit him for half of his hp in one single attack. As this happens my Warrior is also instantly “turned to stone” (stunned) and then rooted; this all happens within the space of about 2-3 seconds and is not even remotely RNG reliant. This is unbalanced, simple as that.

Of course you could counter argue by saying that the Thief is glass cannon, and thus you can kill him just as fast, but we all know that this is simply not true; a pure glass cannon thief is perfectly capable of surviving on the battlefield for an extended period of time.

How? Stealths, stun-breaks, teleports, and to a lesser extend other forms of mobility such as swiftness; a Thief can linger on the outskirts of any battle and when the opportunity presents itself they can teleport in and 1-shot any squishy. If their target happens to be a tanky profession/build (much like my Warrior) they will still crit for approximately half their victims health.

But what happens next? Well, there are a different options available to the Thief, none of which include being killed by the enemy (unless they are incredibly unlucky or have vital abilities on cooldown. The Thief can for example re-stealth and disengage, linger again and wait for another opportunity, or they could simply re-stealth and burst the next viable target. But what’s that, your stealth did not allow you to make a clean exit? Well try popping your other stealth, and if this fails you could always use your 1,200 range double-stun-breaking-double-teleport, or simply switch out to your shortbow and use that to teleport.

Now, I am using absolutely no hyperbole; everything here is simple fact. Yes it is true that things will not always go in the Thieves favour, however on a far more consistent basis it will, and the end result is basically a class who can lock a target in place (depending on stability/CC breakers of course,) and crit them (100% guaranteed) for anything from about half of their health to all of their health. Then the Thief can happily evade retaliation until the next viable opportunity presents itself.

This is very clearly imbalanced, however I welcome any other counter arguments. Maybe there is something I am missing?

Regardless, needs to be changed.

And when phantasm mesmer shatter them after innitiatial hit for like 10k+ on non glass cannon doest get physical with you , still got just 1 utility used and elite skill available is ok ? Backstab sure does more but it also give in more elite skill+melee range + if he root you its 2 utiity slots not 1. means .. he has 1 utility left failed to get a kill.

Vrak.2193:

I have not read any of the responses in this thread, but just to chime in: Backstab needs to be nerfed (and it likely will be.)

My Warrior has close to 2.1k toughness and 27k hp. Backstab thieves that specc glass cannon can instantly teleport onto him from 1,200 range (right into an auto-stealth) and proceed to crit him for half of his hp in one single attack. As this happens my Warrior is also instantly “turned to stone” (stunned) and then rooted; this all happens within the space of about 2-3 seconds and is not even remotely RNG reliant. This is unbalanced, simple as that.

Of course you could counter argue by saying that the Thief is glass cannon, and thus you can kill him just as fast, but we all know that this is simply not true; a pure glass cannon thief is perfectly capable of surviving on the battlefield for an extended period of time.

How? Stealths, stun-breaks, teleports, and to a lesser extend other forms of mobility such as swiftness; a Thief can linger on the outskirts of any battle and when the opportunity presents itself they can teleport in and 1-shot any squishy. If their target happens to be a tanky profession/build (much like my Warrior) they will still crit for approximately half their victims health.

But what happens next? Well, there are different options available to the Thief, none of which include being killed by the enemy (unless they are incredibly unlucky or have vital abilities on cooldown.) The Thief can for example re-stealth and disengage, linger again and wait for another opportunity, or they could simply re-stealth and burst the next viable target. But what’s that, your stealth did not allow you to make a clean exit? Well try popping your other stealth, and if this fails you could always use your 1,200 range double-stun-breaking-double-teleport, or simply switch out to your shortbow and use that to teleport.

Now, I am using absolutely no hyperbole; everything here is simple fact. Yes it is true that things will not always go in the Thieves favour, however on a far more consistent basis it will, and the end result is basically a class who can lock a target in place (depending on stability/CC breakers of course,) and crit them (100% guaranteed) for anything from about half of their health to all of their health. Then the Thief can happily evade retaliation until the next viable opportunity presents itself.

This is very clearly imbalanced, however I welcome any other counter arguments. Maybe there is something I am missing?

Regardless, needs to be changed.

Again just as a simple “dodge when he casts his steal” or “stunbreakers dude” response can easily argue against you, there is no need to post any sort of retort, because your claim is “facts from thin air” give us more evidence, give us more DATA, give us some BEST and WORST case scenarios here or else you’re wasting virtual space by typing up garbage… no offense.

“Backstab thieves will be nerfed again”

Really? where is your red telephone direct line to A-Net, and when did it flash and ring telling you they were getting on the line to you to inform you of this?
that’s right it didn’t, and you were just assuming.

Also since when is ONE attack utilising the profession skill, and 2 cooldowns one being an elite, hitting you for half your “tanky” hp from a crit backstab buffed etc strike, which you could have probably healed off a moment or two later a game imbalance? from the sounds of it (and they’re vague claims) you didn’t even die, just lost half your hp…

just because they have “options” afterwards and those being that they’ve used for example their:

*Elite
*assassins signet
*steal
*(possibly another venom for the might stacks)

leaves them with 1 or 2 cooldowns left to run while you have or should have in a clean best case scenario encounter, 5 cooldowns left to fight back, and that includes your heal…..

So how much does your heal restore? assuming that’s your only healing skill equipped of course lets take that from the initial burst of your claimed 14k or so, and what have we left? I’m just not seeing this being overpowered…

Also if they bog off, what’s the problem? they didn’t shatter on your mighty chest and kneel in terror at your awesome tanky face and instantly commit harakiri despite failing?

I don’t get your argument lol, from what you’re saying you didn’t get your rear handed to you by a Backstab thief, yet you still complain because they blew all their cooldowns and escaped :S

Also, if what you’re saying should be on the off chance correct and it’s “overpowering” without damage builds being somewhat viable, what would stop tanks just steamrolling over everything WORSE than they already are?

god, look at the tanks before you look at the now “stun breaker ruined” glasscannons

Hellkaiser.6025:

Again just as a simple “dodge when he casts his steal” or “stunbreakers dude” response can easily argue against you, there is no need to post any sort of retort, because your claim is “facts from thin air” give us more evidence, give us more DATA, give us some BEST and WORST case scenarios here or else you’re wasting virtual space by typing up garbage… no offense.

“Backstab thieves will be nerfed again”

Really? where is your red telephone direct line to A-Net, and when did it flash and ring telling you they were getting on the line to you to inform you of this?
that’s right it didn’t, and you were just assuming.

Also since when is ONE attack utilising the profession skill, and 2 cooldowns one being an elite, hitting you for half your “tanky” hp from a crit backstab buffed etc strike, which you could have probably healed off a moment or two later a game imbalance? from the sounds of it (and they’re vague claims) you didn’t even die, just lost half your hp…

just because they have “options” afterwards and those being that they’ve used for example their:

*Elite
*assassins signet
*steal
*(possibly another venom for the might stacks)

leaves them with 1 or 2 cooldowns left to run while you have or should have in a clean best case scenario encounter, 5 cooldowns left to fight back, and that includes your heal…..

So how much does your heal restore? assuming that’s your only healing skill equipped of course lets take that from the initial burst of your claimed 14k or so, and what have we left? I’m just not seeing this being overpowered…

Also if they bog off, what’s the problem? they didn’t shatter on your mighty chest and kneel in terror at your awesome tanky face and instantly commit harakiri despite failing?

I don’t get your argument lol, from what you’re saying you didn’t get your rear handed to you by a Backstab thief, yet you still complain because they blew all their cooldowns and escaped :S

Also, if what you’re saying should be on the off chance correct and it’s “overpowering” without damage builds being somewhat viable, what would stop tanks just steamrolling over everything WORSE than they already are?

god, look at the tanks before you look at the now “stun breaker ruined” glasscannons

See, what he’s saying is that if there were TWO people with GLASS CANNON builds that used ALL of their skills at the SAME TIME, before he could heal, then he MIGHT have been killed instantly… uh oh, better nerf thieves

Namu.5712:

Fact: Thief is going to be nerfed.

Its not a L2P issue, its a broken mechanic issue and the might nerf bat is going to come down upon you.

And yes people are complaining about condition thieves as well because really what can you do against most of them?

Perfect example: You claim a thief is a glass cannon, okay. A glass cannon that can kill you before you can do anything to take advantage of that 90% of the time.
And the other is a condition thief not a glass cannon, but their mobility and surviablity is unrivaled.
The problem? In one word, stealth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEWOGcU61ng&list=PLdRu-1piROblxmQL9HcyqJKzgITtf9TTg&index=5&feature=plpp_video

1 button spam ftw.

I play this build.. it isn’t 1 button.. and I encourage you to try it if it is so easy. Wild Bill is a freak at hitting his CnD’s and I regularly rewatch these videos to continue to get better at it and pick up the subtle things. Sure this build is very strong, but it has counters to which he himself would attest. Condition Necro’s can absolutely destroy this build and well place immobilizes and stuns also give it issues. Sure I’ve had those awesome 1v3 win moments with the build because of the defensive nature of stealth, but most of that was because those 3 people didn’t ever work together to try and take me down.

Vrak.2193:

… a Thief can linger on the outskirts of any battle and when the opportunity presents itself they can teleport in and 1-shot any squishy.

They can’t one-shot anyone (other then rabbits), but other then that, isn’t striking – and killing – swiftly and unseen an unsuspecting victim exactly what an assassin (thief) is supposed to do? Should their burst-capability be nerfed so they can never kill swiftly and no longer be able to be assassins and instead … do what?

Please tell us, what is your vision of the Thief profession?

Kurow.6973

Yes! When I’m on my thief, I don’t specifically “run backstab”. However, backstab is always there if I have dagger in MH. It’s a weapon skill. People need to stop kittening and get better.

If backstab dependent thieves were so hard to counter, I wouldn’t be killing every single one of them that jumps me.

As for AS, when did I say I don’t use AS? Ofc I use AS when it’s necessary (while running a pure physical damage build for example). It’s a utility skill. Doesn’t make it OP just because I use it. AS is a one time use in most fights. By your logic, every single utility you equip is OP.

People seem to lack serious logic when qqing about classes and skills it seems.

PS: Backstab IS easily countered by GOOD players. Which there’s a serious lack of. However, there’s a huge presence of BAD players. If someone runs backstab and manages to kill BAD players, then bravo for them…there’s a lot of them.
However, this does NOT justify any kind of nerfing

I was just pointing out that you argue both sides of the toss. On the one hand you trash Assassin’s Signet and are at pains to say how easily countered BS is, but on the other hand you use both.

Either you think the skills are bad or they are the ones you like well enough to play. Trashing them but choosing to use them out of all those available to you makes your argument unconvincing.

This is not helped when the main thrust of your argument is that nearly all players are bad at PvP. Clearly, applying basic frequency distribution, the majority players of the game will be AVERAGE. If the majority of players cannot easily counter a backstab thief, that means the average player cannot counter a backstab thief, which means backstab is OP.

The fact that you and a few other thieves have convinced yourselves that all decent players should (a) construct their builds entirely around the need to counter thieves and (b) be prescient in their dodging abilities (i.e. the lol comment of “just dodge as soon as he steals”) doesn’t actually mean thieves are easily countered in practise. It just means they can be countered in theory and that in practise it sometimes works. That’s very different.

Wow, this argument is still going? Sigh, give a class some Stealth, even weak kitten Stealth and not World of Warcraft permanent Stealth, and people whine and cry it into nerf world. Does anybody playing this game PLAY the kitten game? Do you people read anything? Look up any information? How about watch videos? Maybe even make the class for yourself and figure out their weaknesses?

Thief has the lowest Health pool of any class in the game. If they go glass cannon for a nice big Backstab hit, they’ll have somewhere in the 12,500~13,500 health range. My Necromancer butt naked has a base of almost 17,000 health. This means, once the Thief makes an attempt at killing you in 3 seconds, you better be dead and gone or he WILL die. They are the ultimate in offense, the ultimate in skill usage and the ultimate killer of people who suck or have no cooldowns. If Backstab and glass cannons get nerfed then all you do is shift Thieves into another mode of killing you.

Believe me, you don’t want to start nerfing Glass Cannon Thieves. Why? Because if you change something like a main mechanic of the class, then they will gain something else somewhere else. Perhaps longer or more power Stealth, shorter cooldowns, longer poisons, actual stun locks, etc. Once you move Thieves away from damage, you start to put them into more of a “control” role and a Thief with a lot of control will kill you far far far more often than one that can simply 2 or 3 shot you, and will frustrate you even more, because then you will NOT be able to kill them at all. Look at World of Warcraft’s Rogues. They can take on half a team by themselves by controlling 4 or 5 people at once for long periods of time, and can Vanish and run away if things get too serious and do it all again 60 seconds later. I’d suck it up at this point and deal with the few big hits the glass cannon backstab thief can do right now, because for all that strength, they have a LOT of glaring weaknesses and once you get some practice in to deal with those weaknesses, you’ll win far more than you lose and only the really good thieves will beat you. That’s how I see it anyway.

Cribbage.2056:

Kurow.6973

Yes! When I’m on my thief, I don’t specifically “run backstab”. However, backstab is always there if I have dagger in MH. It’s a weapon skill. People need to stop kittening and get better.

If backstab dependent thieves were so hard to counter, I wouldn’t be killing every single one of them that jumps me.

As for AS, when did I say I don’t use AS? Ofc I use AS when it’s necessary (while running a pure physical damage build for example). It’s a utility skill. Doesn’t make it OP just because I use it. AS is a one time use in most fights. By your logic, every single utility you equip is OP.

People seem to lack serious logic when qqing about classes and skills it seems.

PS: Backstab IS easily countered by GOOD players. Which there’s a serious lack of. However, there’s a huge presence of BAD players. If someone runs backstab and manages to kill BAD players, then bravo for them…there’s a lot of them.
However, this does NOT justify any kind of nerfing

I was just pointing out that you argue both sides of the toss. On the one hand you trash Assassin’s Signet and are at pains to say how easily countered BS is, but on the other hand you use both.

Either you think the skills are bad or they are the ones you like well enough to play. Trashing them but choosing to use them out of all those available to you makes your argument unconvincing.

This is not helped when the main thrust of your argument is that nearly all players are bad at PvP. Clearly, applying basic frequency distribution, the majority players of the game will be AVERAGE. If the majority of players cannot easily counter a backstab thief, that means the average player cannot counter a backstab thief, which means backstab is OP.

The fact that you and a few other thieves have convinced yourselves that all decent players should (a) construct their builds entirely around the need to counter thieves and (b) be prescient in their dodging abilities (i.e. the lol comment of “just dodge as soon as he steals”) doesn’t actually mean thieves are easily countered in practise. It just means they can be countered in theory and that in practise it sometimes works. That’s very different.

Not sure if you’re being an idiot or not.

I never said AS needs a buff, which would have entailed that it was weak (trash). I said it’s fine as is…just like backstab. They’re FINE as is.

I also said backstab is ALWAYS available to a thief when they use dagger in MH, doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a glass cannon only focused around backstabbing. Reading comprehension bro!

If you’ve read anything I’ve wrote so far and UNDERSTOOD it, you’d know all I’ve said is thief is FINE as is, and should be left as is…with the exception of fixing stealth bug that allows channel skills and mesmers illusions to hit in stealth, and adding new weapon skills to give thieves more variety and options regarding their playstyle.

The “AVERAGE” players are LAZY, and BAD…and REFUSES to learn mechanics and develop counters. They’d rather want things made EASIER for them than LEARN. This is NOT a sufficient reason to nerf.

Thief is NOT the only class I play. So please, READ and UNDERSTAND before you type again.

Understood?…or still confused?

PS: If you’re referring to the guardian counter post I made (with that dodge comment of yours)…yea…you’re clueless, and don’t know how guardian works if you don’t know what I described works as it does.

Stin.9781:

If quickness needs to be removed tell me, how many builds are gonna be gone from viable pvp ?

Any build (of any class) that relies on Quickness is a noob spec. A stat that doubles your DPS is overpowered no matter how you try to justify it. Cooldowns that create such burst remove any strategy that comes into play with prolonged combat. In a game that prides itself on balance and skill based PVP, it’s laughable that they event when live with abilities that allow people to get instagibbed. I don’t want to see any class nerfed (especially in PVE) because of PVPers using unbalanced cooldowns. If there is a problem, nerf the cooldowns, not core class abilities. Without cooldowns, BS hits hard but nothing unbalanced. Its damage is inversely proportional to the survivability of the thief using it.

Okamakiri.8746:

Stin.9781:

If quickness needs to be removed tell me, how many builds are gonna be gone from viable pvp ?

Any build (of any class) that relies on Quickness is a noob spec. A stat that doubles your DPS is overpowered no matter how you try to justify it. Cooldowns that create such burst remove any strategy that comes into play with prolonged combat. In a game that prides itself on balance and skill based PVP, it’s laughable that they event when live with abilities that allow people to get instagibbed. I don’t want to see any class nerfed (especially in PVE) because of PVPers using unbalanced cooldowns. If there is a problem, nerf the cooldowns, not core class abilities. Without cooldowns, BS hits hard but nothing unbalanced. Its damage is inversely proportional to the survivability of the thief using it.

So give me a weapeon set, which can do better or to same level as Backstab w/o quickness not neccesary Dps but it has to be Tpvp viable. No other weapeon has one exept unicorn baller.

Kurow.6973:

Vrak.2193:

I have not read any of the responses in this thread, but just to chime in: Backstab needs to be nerfed (and it likely will be.)

My Warrior has close to 2.1k toughness and 27k hp. Backstab thieves that specc glass cannon can instantly teleport onto him from 1,200 range (right into an auto-stealth) and proceed to crit him for half of his hp in one single attack.

Stopped reading there and came to the conclusion you’re one of these clueless ones that come here to qq about something you have no idea what you’re talking about.

PS: Just to add to the injury…when I’m on my warrior, and I see a thief…I drool, because I know it’s an effortless kill for me. Especially if they’re a glass cannon.

Ok well considering you didn’t actually read my post, by your own admission, how am I supposed to take you seriously in a discussion regarding class balance?

Also just to clarify, I generally don’t have problems with Thieves, however no amount of “skill” can magically augment your stats high enough to viably mitigate such burst damage. 2.1k toughness and 27k hp is much higher than the average, and this particular breed of Thief can melt through it in seconds.

Of course you could say, “learn to dodge” etc, but realistically we all know this this is just a cop-out counter argument that holds no real merit; nobody is an all seeing all knowing oracle.

Stin.9781:

And when phantasm mesmer shatter them after innitiatial hit for like 10k+ on non glass cannon doest get physical with you , still got just 1 utility used and elite skill available is ok ? Backstab sure does more but it also give in more elite skill+melee range + if he root you its 2 utiity slots not 1. means .. he has 1 utility left failed to get a kill.

As I already covered the Thief has a number of potential ways to disengage. Hit blinding powder for example and dodge roll twice, switch to short bow and teleport. Stunned? Just use the 1,200 range double-stun-breaking-double-teleport. So on so forth.

Hellkaiser.6025:

Again just as a simple “dodge when he casts his steal” or “stunbreakers dude” response can easily argue against you, there is no need to post any sort of retort, because your claim is “facts from thin air” give us more evidence, give us more DATA, give us some BEST and WORST case scenarios here or else you’re wasting virtual space by typing up garbage… no offense.

“Backstab thieves will be nerfed again”

Really? where is your red telephone direct line to A-Net, and when did it flash and ring telling you they were getting on the line to you to inform you of this?
that’s right it didn’t, and you were just assuming.

Also since when is ONE attack utilising the profession skill, and 2 cooldowns one being an elite, hitting you for half your “tanky” hp from a crit backstab buffed etc strike, which you could have probably healed off a moment or two later a game imbalance? from the sounds of it (and they’re vague claims) you didn’t even die, just lost half your hp…

just because they have “options” afterwards and those being that they’ve used for example their:

*Elite
*assassins signet
*steal
*(possibly another venom for the might stacks)

leaves them with 1 or 2 cooldowns left to run while you have or should have in a clean best case scenario encounter, 5 cooldowns left to fight back, and that includes your heal…..

So how much does your heal restore? assuming that’s your only healing skill equipped of course lets take that from the initial burst of your claimed 14k or so, and what have we left? I’m just not seeing this being overpowered…

Also if they bog off, what’s the problem? they didn’t shatter on your mighty chest and kneel in terror at your awesome tanky face and instantly commit harakiri despite failing?

I don’t get your argument lol, from what you’re saying you didn’t get your rear handed to you by a Backstab thief, yet you still complain because they blew all their cooldowns and escaped :S

Also, if what you’re saying should be on the off chance correct and it’s “overpowering” without damage builds being somewhat viable, what would stop tanks just steamrolling over everything WORSE than they already are?

god, look at the tanks before you look at the now “stun breaker ruined” glasscannons

Ok well firstly the cop-out “learn to dodge” or “use stun-breaker” argument has very little merit indeed.

As baseline, Steal is an instant cast (thus no cast time) 900 range teleport, which can be upgraded to 1,200 range. It can also be upgraded to stealth the Thief.

Are you claiming that the correct counter to a glass-cannon backstab Thief is to have a constant and simultaneous 360 degree battlefield view with 100% uptime up to 1,200 range from your character? If you are really capable of that then I am beyond impressed, but I suspect that you are not, and even if you were it wouldn’t really mean anything as the other 99% of the player-base are not likely to be highly evolved super-savants capable of achieving a near sixth-sense awareness.

But nonetheless, you asked for a best case and worst case scenario:

Best case: teleport in, one-shot the Elementalist, re-stealth, one-shot the mesmer, cap point.

Worst case: teleport in, crit Elementalist for 80-90% of their hp, get hit with stun, teleport 1,200 range away and switch to shortbow, continue to teleport (while dodge rolling if you like) as the mesmer attempts to chase you down, leaving your Warrior buddy to finish off the last 10-20% hp on the elementalist and then cap the point. Once silly Mesmer is a safe distance from the point re-stealth and crit them for 80-90% of their hp, then hit Heartseeker; they dodge roll, your hp is already low as they got a phantasm off just as you re-stealthed…no worries just heartseeker again; oh bugger they dodge-rolled again, now you are at 20% hp! Phew steal just came back off cooldown, just hit that and Backstab for the kill. Close call!

Ok, so moving on to your next point; no I do not have a direct line to Anet, don’t be silly. I did actually say Thieves are likely to get nerfed again; I did not claim it was a certainty, and Indeed I am just assuming, given the good cause and logic behind it. I could very well be wrong, though I hope I am not.

Now just to clarify as there seems to be some confusion in regards to the scenario I mentioned in my initial post; I did indeed get killed. Basically I was making my way to defend my teams Treb when the Backstab fellow teleported onto me and crit me for half of my 27k hp, melting through my 2.1k toughness (which is indeed classed as tanky.) I hit my stun-breaker/stability and got off my heal, going back to about 80% health, by which time the Thief had already re-stealthed; seconds later he hit me again taking me to about 30% hp or less. I hit him with Shield-Bash and attempted an Eviscerate but he teleported away and when around LoS; A few seconds later I was crit once again for my remaining hp, and that was that.

Now, what actually happened here is not the important information; the point I was getting across is that a glass-cannon Backstab Thief can take up to 50% hp away from a 27k hp 2.1k toughness Warrior in a matter of about 2 seconds. Now just imagine that same scenario but against someone with squishy or even “average” survivability stats; they are pretty much one-shot. Are you claiming that this is balanced?

Now, onto my argument, just to clarify as you admit that you do not understand what I am trying to convey here; I believe glass-cannon backstab Thieves are overpowered as they do too much damage for how difficult they are to pin-down/kill. It has nothing to do with complaining; I have a Thief myself and I quite enjoy it, however I play a 1H sword + dagger off-hand build. I am simply giving feedback.

frans.8092:

They can’t one-shot anyone (other then rabbits), but other then that, isn’t striking – and killing – swiftly and unseen an unsuspecting victim exactly what an assassin (thief) is supposed to do? Should their burst-capability be nerfed so they can never kill swiftly and no longer be able to be assassins and instead … do what?

Please tell us, what is your vision of the Thief profession?

Incorrect; actually they can. However when a lot of people say one-shot what they are really saying is killed in a matter of 1-2 seconds, which may as well be the exact same thing, so lets not get caught up on the irrelevant details.

But to answer your question, I believe the Thief should be a high damage, low survivability class that is slippery and hard to pin down; very mobile.

As it stands they are pretty close to that however some builds (such as the one we are discussing) are too over-tuned on the damage department.

Really, Kudow, you should go re-read this thread from the start and pay some attention to your own posts.

You have a tendency when someone disagrees with you to call them clueless and acuse them of not reading what you said. That’s a bad sign, and if in the cold light of day you don’t realise why it is a bad sign, that is actually a worse sign.

Try to bear in mind that what people have here are opinions. And those opinions are hinging around such ephemera as how easy it is to execute a given set of moves while other players are executing a given set of counter moves – in a changable context. That’s not an exact science and what you provide the discussion is hardly irrefutable evidence. So people who post arguments counter to your own are not doing it because they are “clueless” or “idiots”.

My opinion is that BS does too much damage for an easily applied skill. They can’t make it harder to apply, since any immob or stun that the target cannot break, even one applied by another player, gives you pretty much a guaranteed BS chain. On top of that, any player whose attention is on one of your team mates rather than you gives you an extremely good BS opportunity. Since these things cannot be changes, the damage needs to be toned down. None of the other stealth attacks have anything like the burst of backstab – why should BS be so special?

Hellkaiser.6025:

Question:

You see a thief coming at you as say, a guardian he’s making a beeline for you clearly and you have a second or two to react

How many horrific counters do you have to his abilities that will leave him wondering why he bothered?

If you see a thief running at you as a guardian, you laugh and proceed to downing him in seconds.

Are you serious?

The problem with opinions, is that they’re usually biased and not based on actual evidence.

The best and worst case “scenario” question that vrak answered showed this really well. However it was a VERY biased “worst” case scenario offered, one minute he’s one shotting you. And the next he’s nearly one shotting you and double teaming you with an outside interference.

I’m sorry but from what you’re saying it sounds like exaggeration, bias and overall incredibly misleading in terms of feedback.
Don’t take offense to that, it’s just how I personally feel on the matter, and believe me when I say this I WANT to believe you.

No I’m no more a “superhuman savant” than you have a direct line to A-net as I joked, but clearly your opinions seem to be based off of anything but pure “logic”

I don’t even play a “glascannon nubbinz bs build” but I already know that if they didn’t exist we’d just have insanely one sided matchups where tanky players can outsustain the middle of the road guys and would become RAMPANT. Christ it’s tough enough to kill a tanky specced elementalist who knows what they’re doing if you’re not build for burst. This doesn’t of course mean that B/S builds aren’t POTENTIALLY problematic, but if you change one, you end up empowering the other

Maybe, just MAYBE the problem isn’t with thief though, and more with the misconceptions about how other classes can be played, despite all appearances maybe you SHOULDN’T be stacking your survival out the wazoo on a warrior and should have instead been a bit more counter-aggressive

I just find it odd that this is the “most op build” even after it took a HUGE nerf with BV being altered, it seems that breaking that would result in a potential missed backstab and counter damge

I’m trying to avoid ad hominem arguments, but honestly I’m just not seeing anything but extreme bias against the build as opposed to just rational logic

Cribbage.2056:

Really, Kudow, you should go re-read this thread from the start and pay some attention to your own posts.

You have a tendency when someone disagrees with you to call them clueless and acuse them of not reading what you said. That’s a bad sign, and if in the cold light of day you don’t realise why it is a bad sign, that is actually a worse sign.

Try to bear in mind that what people have here are opinions. And those opinions are hinging around such ephemera as how easy it is to execute a given set of moves while other players are executing a given set of counter moves – in a changable context. That’s not an exact science and what you provide the discussion is hardly irrefutable evidence. So people who post arguments counter to your own are not doing it because they are “clueless” or “idiots”.

My opinion is that BS does too much damage for an easily applied skill. They can’t make it harder to apply, since any immob or stun that the target cannot break, even one applied by another player, gives you pretty much a guaranteed BS chain. On top of that, any player whose attention is on one of your team mates rather than you gives you an extremely good BS opportunity. Since these things cannot be changes, the damage needs to be toned down. None of the other stealth attacks have anything like the burst of backstab – why should BS be so special?

A. you are forgetting what every complainer is forgetting about and that is the ripple effect, if you nerf backstab damage, then the thief builds that use backstab but aren’t built for it or built for crit+crit damage will suffer the most. Assassin’s signet +massive stacks of might is what ramps up the damage big time anyway and that is on a pretty decent cooldown. So as always a lot of exaggeration and claims without a SHRED of evidence with some imaginary game (clearly not GW2) where the thief can jump from target to target and 1-2 shot backstab them.

B. Other stealth abilities have conditions or effects, that is why they have less damage. At the same time many of them are lackluster in comparison to backstab in that trade-off, so inadvertently you just promoted a buff for the other stealth abilities, which I am sure we would appreciate.

If you are having a problem with backstab builds, then I truely feel sorry for you.
I will give you a tip that I shouldn’t be:
What happens when a backstab build thief uses all of those damage buffs and backstabs the usual guardian build? (Hint: it is a boon)

For other classes?
How about AOE blind?
knockbacks?
teleporting away?
Invulnerability frames (even mesmer sword has one)?
Moving in a circle?
dodging?
that is just an appetizer, enjoy your meal.

LOCO.1785:

Hellkaiser.6025:

Question:

You see a thief coming at you as say, a guardian he’s making a beeline for you clearly and you have a second or two to react

How many horrific counters do you have to his abilities that will leave him wondering why he bothered?

If you see a thief running at you as a guardian, you laugh and proceed to downing him in seconds.

Are you serious?

Deadly serious, but for some reason players are so paranoid that I’m defending the complaints vs backstab they think I’m making out the thief will steamroll the guardian and not the other way around as many will tell you.

kharza.3974:

Namu.5712:

Fact: Thief is going to be nerfed.

Its not a L2P issue, its a broken mechanic issue and the might nerf bat is going to come down upon you.

And yes people are complaining about condition thieves as well because really what can you do against most of them?

Perfect example: You claim a thief is a glass cannon, okay. A glass cannon that can kill you before you can do anything to take advantage of that 90% of the time.
And the other is a condition thief not a glass cannon, but their mobility and surviablity is unrivaled.
The problem? In one word, stealth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEWOGcU61ng&list=PLdRu-1piROblxmQL9HcyqJKzgITtf9TTg&index=5&feature=plpp_video

1 button spam ftw.

I play this build.. it isn’t 1 button.. and I encourage you to try it if it is so easy. Wild Bill is a freak at hitting his CnD’s and I regularly rewatch these videos to continue to get better at it and pick up the subtle things. Sure this build is very strong, but it has counters to which he himself would attest. Condition Necro’s can absolutely destroy this build and well place immobilizes and stuns also give it issues. Sure I’ve had those awesome 1v3 win moments with the build because of the defensive nature of stealth, but most of that was because those 3 people didn’t ever work together to try and take me down.

Just set Namu to ignore.

If you read his post history you’ll come to realise he’s just a scrub not willing to adapt or learn his class and would much rather scream & whinge on the forums demanding nerfs. You’ll find him stretching the truth quite often to try and validate his points. Truly sad.

kharza.3974:

Namu.5712:

Fact: Thief is going to be nerfed.

Its not a L2P issue, its a broken mechanic issue and the might nerf bat is going to come down upon you.

And yes people are complaining about condition thieves as well because really what can you do against most of them?

Perfect example: You claim a thief is a glass cannon, okay. A glass cannon that can kill you before you can do anything to take advantage of that 90% of the time.
And the other is a condition thief not a glass cannon, but their mobility and surviablity is unrivaled.
The problem? In one word, stealth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEWOGcU61ng&list=PLdRu-1piROblxmQL9HcyqJKzgITtf9TTg&index=5&feature=plpp_video

1 button spam ftw.

I play this build.. it isn’t 1 button.. and I encourage you to try it if it is so easy. Wild Bill is a freak at hitting his CnD’s and I regularly rewatch these videos to continue to get better at it and pick up the subtle things. Sure this build is very strong, but it has counters to which he himself would attest. Condition Necro’s can absolutely destroy this build and well place immobilizes and stuns also give it issues. Sure I’ve had those awesome 1v3 win moments with the build because of the defensive nature of stealth, but most of that was because those 3 people didn’t ever work together to try and take me down.

I have and its a 1 button build. Hitting CnD when apporiate IE down states or when you need some breathing room…. other then that the only other things your doing on this build is hitting your 1 skill and keeping bleeds up, elite skill if the situation calls for and putting your buffs on for more cond damage when needed. Oh and every now and then steal just because spinning around from a warriors skill is good damage.

Point is if you didn’t have CnD, or the other stealth ability’s along with the mobility, people would be able to kill you…. instead as it stands a thief can rofl stomp 3-4 players pretty much with them all focusing you, because again you can stealth and attack without being seen….. and theres no “working” penalty for it. Then top that off with the stealth bug and well what you get is what thieves are currently. Damage isn’t so much a concern its the fact that you just cant hit us. And if you do happen to get in and hit us its hahaha, cool you got me down to 50%…. stealth heal, and attack while the other player cant even target you to attack back. Whats that? you closed the gap again and stunned me??!!?! oh noes….. stun break , CnD…. lol sucker.

LOCO.1785:

kharza.3974:

Namu.5712:

Fact: Thief is going to be nerfed.

Its not a L2P issue, its a broken mechanic issue and the might nerf bat is going to come down upon you.

And yes people are complaining about condition thieves as well because really what can you do against most of them?

Perfect example: You claim a thief is a glass cannon, okay. A glass cannon that can kill you before you can do anything to take advantage of that 90% of the time.
And the other is a condition thief not a glass cannon, but their mobility and surviablity is unrivaled.
The problem? In one word, stealth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEWOGcU61ng&list=PLdRu-1piROblxmQL9HcyqJKzgITtf9TTg&index=5&feature=plpp_video

1 button spam ftw.

I play this build.. it isn’t 1 button.. and I encourage you to try it if it is so easy. Wild Bill is a freak at hitting his CnD’s and I regularly rewatch these videos to continue to get better at it and pick up the subtle things. Sure this build is very strong, but it has counters to which he himself would attest. Condition Necro’s can absolutely destroy this build and well place immobilizes and stuns also give it issues. Sure I’ve had those awesome 1v3 win moments with the build because of the defensive nature of stealth, but most of that was because those 3 people didn’t ever work together to try and take me down.

Just set Namu to ignore.

If you read his post history you’ll come to realise he’s just a scrub not willing to adapt or learn his class and would much rather scream & whinge on the forums demanding nerfs. You’ll find him stretching the truth quite often to try and validate his points. Truly sad.

I haven’t demanded any nerfs.

I just said its gonna happen and your fooling yourself if you think otherwise. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Btw I main a thief. Doesn’t change anything at all. And most fights against another thief come very close to a draw if they are equal skilled.

The other class though are just easy mode to kill.

Im not so foolish to think that we are not op, and this OP comes from our stealth mechanic. Because in reality if you hit someone for a crazy amount if they can see you and are decent they will turn around a lay down the hurt…. but thats the problem they cant see you.

And it becomes a game of catch up, you jump them take a good majority of their health. They go to fight back and your already stealthed, dodge their aoe that you know is going to come, and attack again before they can even retarget and see you on their end. If you think everything is fine and dandy with that then cool.

Oh, and really you don’t need to resort to calling people you don’t agree with names, grow a pair and talk like an adult.

Hellkaiser
The problem with opinions, is that they’re usually biased and not based on actual evidence.
The best and worst case “scenario” question that vrak answered showed this really well. However it was a VERY biased “worst” case scenario offered, one minute he’s one shotting you. And the next he’s nearly one shotting you and double teaming you with an outside interference.
I’m sorry but from what you’re saying it sounds like exaggeration, bias and overall incredibly misleading in terms of feedback.

I agree that opinions are often biased to varying degrees, however I disagree that my opinion is biased; the best and worst case scenarios I provided are entirely realistic.

However we both know that the true “worst case scenario” would be that the Thief ports in and gets annihilated in seconds due to aoe/cleave damage, but what would have been the point of me giving that as an example? We all know that this can happen to most other classes if they build for bust as well, and that the Thief in question would have to be pretty bad to misjudge the situation so severely; the worst case scenario I provided was that of a realistic situation where things go against the Thief, but due to the power of the build and the basic use of his class abilities he was able to contribute to capping the point and come out alive. Yes I could have left out the bit about the Mesmer chasing him, but I added that in to highlight the fact that a Thief is more often than not able to disengage and re-engage again with huge burst.

I can see why you think I am being biased but really, there would be no point in giving a worst case scenario if it was just along the lines of “Thief teleports into mass aoe and basks in a sea of damage.”

Hellkaiser
Don’t take offense to that, it’s just how I personally feel on the matter, and believe me when I say this I WANT to believe you.
No I’m no more a “superhuman savant” than you have a direct line to A-net as I joked, but clearly your opinions seem to be based off of anything but pure “logic”

No offence taken

But how so? What is so illogical about my opinion? I would say that believing a class to be overepowered because it can burst 50-100% (depending on survival stats) of another classes health in about 1-2 seconds (while at the same time having access to incredible mobility and stealth capability) is a pretty sound and logical conclusion.

Thinking logically, surely that kind of obscene damage should have some kind of trade-off? Yes the Thief is also considerably squishy, but when he is instantly teleporting away or simply slipping into thin air, well his poor damage mitigation is not really much of an issue; a glass cannon Thief can still have high survivability (toughness and vitality are not the only factors to take into account in this game,) too high for the amount of damage he can dish out.

Hellkaiser
I don’t even play a “glascannon nubbinz bs build” but I already know that if they didn’t exist we’d just have insanely one sided matchups where tanky players can outsustain the middle of the road guys and would become RAMPANT. Christ it’s tough enough to kill a tanky specced elementalist who knows what they’re doing if you’re not build for burst. This doesn’t of course mean that B/S builds aren’t POTENTIALLY problematic, but if you change one, you end up empowering the other
Maybe, just MAYBE the problem isn’t with thief though, and more with the misconceptions about how other classes can be played, despite all appearances maybe you SHOULDN’T be stacking your survival out the wazoo on a warrior and should have instead been a bit more counter-aggressive
I just find it odd that this is the “most op build” even after it took a HUGE nerf with BV being altered, it seems that breaking that would result in a potential missed backstab and counter damge
I’m trying to avoid ad hominem arguments, but honestly I’m just not seeing anything but extreme bias against the build as opposed to just rational logic

So basically what you are saying is that to mitigate one imbalance, another is needed; that’s poor game design right there. When one thing gets altered it can and often will affect other aspects of the game; this is not any new revelation. Balancing an MMORPG is a constant endeavour; buffing one thing may nerf another and so on so forth. It would be inadvisable to allow people to go around dishing out obscene burst damage just because there are other people going around taking obscene amounts of damage as well. It’s all about chasing that perfect equilibrium.

I have never suggested that glass-cannon builds should not exist. I agree that they should have a place in the game, but much like every other aspect of balance they must be regulated and adjusted accordingly. In my honest opinion some Thief builds are out of line and thus I think they need to be adjusted; I am not talking about anything drastic, but enough to stop them from being far too consistently game-breaking. Now the devs may very well disagree with me, but hopefully they do not.

As for speccing my Warrior more offensively, well it’s all about play-style and personal preference, but in this instance being more squishy would have only exasperated the problem for me; I did not get a chance to retaliate and thus my extra damage would have gone to waste.

Hey, guys! i have a great idea, Lets nerf every single skill on every single profession and go back to hitting each other with foam clubs and water guns. Oh wait, that’s how mmos are ruined.

In all seriousness, nerfing a class because of the community whining is not the way to go with it. In the end, a nerf to a skill does achieve much. yea sure, the people who do the high burst dmg do less dmg, but wot about the people who don’t do full burst but still use that skill, they would be doing no dmg. and good players will learn to adapt and find new ways to burst you down because u are caught out of position.
You can nerf the skills and the class, but you can’t nerf the player.

FrozenLuv.6017:

Hey, guys! i have a great idea, Lets nerf every single skill on every single profession and go back to hitting each other with foam clubs and water guns. Oh wait, that’s how mmos are ruined.

In all seriousness, nerfing a class because of the community whining is not the way to go with it. In the end, a nerf to a skill does achieve much. yea sure, the people who do the high burst dmg do less dmg, but wot about the people who don’t do full burst but still use that skill, they would be doing no dmg. and good players will learn to adapt and find new ways to burst you down because u are caught out of position.
You can nerf the skills and the class, but you can’t nerf the player.

Nerfing damage output will just make bad thieves stand out good players of the profession will have no problems. And this is because they usually dont rely on a full damage/burst build in the first place they dont spam one or two skills to kill someone they use all their skills when the situation calls for it.

So good players will remain largely unaffected by any nerfs that come that are within reason of course.

The main problem I see is stealth not rendering properly, happens to me and I see it happen to people I fight all the time, and it gives me the winning hand in a otherwise good fight.

Fight is 50/50 either could win, im getting low on health, I stealth…. bam I just won because now without them being able to hit me I pull ahead in damage and finish them off with an unfair advantage, that advantage being that they couldn’t even see me while I was doing the damage that put me ahead in the fight.

A good player will avoid your burst, and come back with their own. But when you throw stealth into the mix it becomes a win for the thief.

Loosifah.4739:

For any of your complaining about the nerfs to the thief; try rolling a class like Elementalist who’s supposed to have massive damage for the trade off of having the LOWEST armor and health in the game.

Enough said.

This is the main problem with all the nerf qqing for any class.

What people need to acknowledge is that Gw2 is a game of “roles”, not in a sense of healer,tank,dps,spike dps, but more of a….

Ganker
Initiator
support
carry

If you have played HON,Dota/2,LOL you would be familiar with these terms. To translate that into gw2 simply means that you can not compare a glass cannon elem to a glass cannon thief. (glass cannon ele =/= glass cannon thief).

why you ask?

because each class is designed differently to do different roles, and the biggest thing is to realize the potential of each weapon skill set for a certain class, whether it be dps/support/initiate/etc.

for example:
dagger/dagger elem: no matter how you look at it the skills this weapon set offers great initiation(fire3, air4, earth3) a lot of skills that travels some distance + some kinda of “cc” (stuns,immobil,slow)

dagger/dagger thief: This set is all about damage, no “cc”, but offers great mobility in terms of leap(dagger2/heartseeker), evade (dagger3/deathblossom), and cloak and dagger(stealth)

now if both go glass cannon build one(elem) would be inferior in terms of damage.
but think about it this way, the elem offers the best set up for the team trying to “gank” because of its “cc”. On the other hand, what does glass cannon thief offer to the team other than its damage.

Both offers different things, and both requires certain situations to shine.

@ Wilhelmryan Exactly,

Most people don’t understand that, most likely because they are ex-WoW players and not TD (HoN/LoL/Dota) vets

@ Wilhelmryman

FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT

Can we close this thread already? It’s the same repetitive arguments that’s going nowhere.

Bad, and lazy players looking for ezmode, while the decent/good players are getting tired of repeating themselves.

Cribbage.2056:

My opinion is that BS does too much damage for an easily applied skill. …

Backstab:

Attack your foe from the shadows, striking for double damage if you hit from behind.
Front damage: 403
Back damage: 806
Range: 130

Hundred Blades:
Repeatedly strike multiple foes. The last strike does extra damage.
Damage (8x): 1,624
Final strike damage: 406
Range: 130

That’s twice the damage of Backstab. Backstab requires being stealthed and maneuvring to get behind the target.

Here’s an alternative suggestion.

Leave backstab alone and nerf dmg on CnD and Mug.

Mug is just stupid honestly, for a 10 point trait, I’m surprised it’s not a 30 pointer. CnD is already useful enough as it is, but it packs a huge punch. Mug and CnD together actually do more than backstab that’s not signet-boosted lol.

Knote.2904:

Here’s an alternative suggestion.

Leave backstab alone and nerf dmg on CnD and Mug.

Mug is just stupid honestly, for a 10 point trait, I’m surprised it’s not a 30 pointer. CnD is already useful enough as it is, but it packs a huge punch. Mug and CnD together actually do more than backstab that’s not signet-boosted lol.

Yea….let’s nerf anything and everything.

Can we PLEASE lock this thread?

@Wilhelmryan.9203:

Because LoL players don’t qq about every Assassin that ever came, and will come out.
(Yes, LoL community is probably the worst thing on earth and they cry about everything, but hell, these poor Assassins)

It’s really not about terms, the point is simply that you need a deeper understanding of the game/class/character to counter Assassins/carries/junglers/gankers, than a support or a tank etc.

Everything has a trade off, even more so in GW2. And the balance is in a pretty good state.
But nobody can expect to win a 1vs1 as Support vs a Carry, or as Carry vs a Assassin, or as Assassin vs a Tank… and so on.

But you need more skill to get away from a squishy high dps character, since they kill fast, while they are easier to kill than a “Tank” on the other hand.

And while a guardian can play baseball with a whole Zerg, a Thief can play crush the solo glass cannon.

Considering professions like Warrior and Engeneer already having more dmg than the Thief, and that with twice as much HP and more Armor on the one hand, and a range of 1200 on the other, i think the Thief is generally just in the right place with his average – high melee dmg + subpar surviveability only coming through stealth, which AoE classes (basically every class) can just bypass if they are good players.

Nerfing any more core abilities (weapons) will result in a underpowered Thief in the pro scene, while baddies will still be bad.

/E:

I remember characters like Shaco in LoL, a stealthy backstabbing assassin, who was considered as OP for over a year, while a enemy Shaco was basically a free kill for me, simply because i knew how he worked – but most of the ohter players didn’t, and rather spammed the forums with QQ threads than figuring it out.

He eventually got nerfed quite a bit to please the baddies, and was completely unplayable for over a year, since he got borderline UP (again, he never really was that strong, people just didn’t wanted to lern how to counter him). Then he got a super small buff, in order to make him barely playable, and guess what, the baddies instantly put on their torches and grabbed their pitchforks, marching into the forums how OP he would be again (he was still ridiculous weak, but he was played again – and even a support could play out baddies).

It doesn’t matter how much you nerf these Assassins, they will only stop crying when they are taken out of the game (for example by nerfing them so hard, that nobody can and wants to play them anymore).

The question is simple:

Does ArenaNet wants to dumb down the game for baddies, pleasing every QQ bandwagon like Riot, or do they want promote skillful play, high skill caps and educate baddies, with the risk of scaring the 14 years old cry babies away (which Riot clearly isn’t doing, and look what happened to their community, after they figured out that they could get everything nerfed they couldn’t handle).

LOL if you don’t think BS is overpowered then why are you begging for it to not be nerfed? Because of some absolutely minor nerfs that are completely justifiable?

I really regret not just leveling a faceroll warrior if they’re just going to keep nerfing thieves every patch for every build (and not touch warrior at all).

3/3 of my friends are warriors, I’m a thief/elementalist/guardian and we all stack Power/Toughness/Vit gear. They have like twice my hp (30k+) and way more survivability, and better escape/chasing tools.

Good luck killing them with the double endure pain build (auto endure pain at 25% and another endure pain whenever they want), with their high power they’ll still kill almost everyone with a hasted 108 blades.

I don’t get why they even nerfed pistol whip when it did nowhere near as much damage as 108 blades. ANET’s balancing is scaring me since they’re pretty much touching every class but warrior.

I have a geared elementalist (tanky dps d/d) and guardian as well, and I would use them any day over my thief for dungeons. I just like playing assassin types but it’s sad when the squishiest class in the game (even when using all power/toughness/vit) gear has half the life of a tankier class and less DPS.

Warriors have better chasing tools too. Snare or root on their ranged rifle/bow and snare on greatsword, greatsword’s charge + whirlwind + bullrush + 30s swiftness elite all on short cooldowns.

I just feel that thief is just a worse version of warrior more and more, especially when they keep getting nerfed and warriors never get touched with their better abilities.

Even a glass cannon warrior has more hp than a thief stacking vit, get a warrior stacking power/toughness/vit with double endure pain build and they’ll still do massive dmg and have tons more survival.

@Vrak, double endure pain is the way to go. My friend can choose to even take all the hits, let endure pain activate automatically while waiting for a good chance to bullrush + frenzy + 108 blades to instantly 1 round the thief. If it doesn’t, just heal after and hit endure pain again then kill him.
My friend would never lose to a backstab thief. You can also endure pain manually the basilisk stun now, and keep the passive endure pain if he even gets you that low (doubtful since he’ll burn the openers already). Even if you’re slow, you can endure pain then heal to cleanse condition then reverse one combo him.

I also find it pretty ridiculous greatsword’s whirlwind attack hits like 4 times on the same target, as if it didn’t do enough damage and AOE already.

Even in my all power/toughness/vit exotics, I still get one combo’d (bullrush+hundred’s blade) by a power/toughness/vit stacking warrior as a thief if I get hit by the bullrush. A lot of times I roll half of it, but then I just get hit by whirlwind that hits me up to 4 times and die.

Turbo Whale.1738:

LOL if you don’t think BS is overpowered then why are you begging for it to not be nerfed? Because of some absolutely minor nerfs that are completely justifiable?

That’s the thought of the day!!!
It’s like in court judge asks you :“If you think you are innocent ,than why are you opposing some minor jail verdict?”

Today, I went ahead, and played as a ranger in tPvP. I faced several glass cannon thieves of all varieties, and never lost a 1v1 against any of them, excluding one who didn’t go class cannon, but instead condition damage.

I don’t get how people manage to die to them, honestly. I didn’t even put a lot of thought into my build. Just damage dealing traps for utilities, entangle for elite, and traits that seemed to work well with it.

I request that someone lock this thread. All the arguments are repetitive. I would also like to make a request that bugs should be prioritised before balance changes.

frans.8092:

Cribbage.2056:

My opinion is that BS does too much damage for an easily applied skill. …

Backstab:

Attack your foe from the shadows, striking for double damage if you hit from behind.
Front damage: 403
Back damage: 806
Range: 130

Hundred Blades:
Repeatedly strike multiple foes. The last strike does extra damage.
Damage (8x): 1,624
Final strike damage: 406
Range: 130

That’s twice the damage of Backstab. Backstab requires being stealthed and maneuvring to get behind the target.

Apples and oranges m8.

HB can be moved away from. and if they move no more damage… sooooo.

Your comparing an instant attack to an attack that roots the person doing it and can simply be sidestepped… you cant do that against a thief that just jumped you.

Position requirements… who cares, we were given stealth and mobility for a reason, its not like its hard lol.

Namu, i would like to remind you that backstab can also be sidestepped, or are you one of those manly men who tank each and everything thrown at you and expect to live?

Namu.5712:

I have and its a 1 button build… snip

The whole point of stealth is to avoid people killing you and control the encounter.. it is a control mechanic. Rendering bugs aside.. how do you normally go after a mesmer and his 50 friends? Personally I learned all about call target and take target when I played on my ranger.. imagine that the same mechanic works for thieves and stealth. This right now lets you get around the render bug because just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean you can’t target them. Hell all you have to do is play in WvW and that will teach you how to fight invisible targets!

I’m not defending a backstab thief.. assassin’s signet is the problem and that is where the “nerf” should be applied. So enlighten me on what stun breaker you are using in a p/d leeching or venom share build? Normal utilities for that build are spider venom, devourer venom, SoS and thieves guild or dagger storm. What exactly is the stun breaker? So maybe you replace one of the venom’s with a stun breaker.. you reduce not only your damage or control, but your source of healing in that build through the leeching. Meaning your time to kill increased and a 5-10 stack of bleeds even cranking condition damage isn’t going to kill anyone with a clue.

CnD isn’t spam to win either.. you have to have good timing and sure I’ll admit when you are running around in an enemy zerg it isn’t hard to land the skill, but seriously AOE wrecks all thieves in stealth. I know because I used to live on using barrage on my ranger to smack thieves around and my answer to the backstab to win thieves is a nice healthy dose of spin to win (Daggerstorm).. nothing more rewarding then watching them come out of stealth downed. It isn’t the other classes as much as the bad players not adjusting to the mechanics of this game fast enough. I feel it is faceroll playing a thief or any class (heck even my neutered ranger) against bad players. Some people have adjusted to the skill cap in this game quicker than others, of which that is always the case. Good players figured out the traits and utilities and synergies with gearing.. most bad players are playing traits because they sound cool or following the FOTM build posted here instead of actually learning the mechanics. You can never help those people.. they will get destroyed by good players on any class.. period. They have been trained, however, over the years from “other” MMOs.. that they can whine and whine and whine and eventually the company will give in and change things. The reason I am here in Guild Wars 2 is because ArenaNet was supposed to be different. They actually use data, and while they are human and will make mistakes I believe they have the long term view in mind.. which is very refreshing. This is coming from a former RANGER who watched almost every other viable build get smashed by the short bow nerf.. Glad they did it because I believe the thief class is much better for my desired play style. Oh yeah.. I’ve never back stabbed anyone on my thief.. ever… never liked the mechanic no matter how much damage it does.

On a tangent just look at WvW.. everyone CRIED and WHINED about night capping.. ArenaNet said tough.. it is 24X7 deal with it. Now what do we have? We have European servers looking for NA help.. we have NA guilds transferring to EU servers.. The result is a great international community being built. I just moved from a top tier NA server to Desolution in the EU and found the competition at T3 EU better than anything I could find in NA and people that don’t quit fighting and bring the noise day in day out.

TL;DR: The game is new.. players are bad.. bugs will get fixed.. assassin’s signet needs to be nerfed a little. Embrace the global nature of the game…

Backstab already does additional damage base on how much life someone is missing. So why not just make it where it can’t crit a target.

I just thought about that. So far I haven’t seen a single person actually think that part though. Thief can KEEP everything about it just make it to where Backstab

A skill designed to already do additional damage base on missing life on a target, Not be able to critical.

kharza.3974:

Namu.5712:

I have and its a 1 button build… snip

The whole point of stealth is to avoid people killing you and control the encounter.. it is a control mechanic. Rendering bugs aside.. how do you normally go after a mesmer and his 50 friends? Personally I learned all about call target and take target when I played on my ranger.. imagine that the same mechanic works for thieves and stealth.

First of all, called targets are removed with certain mesmer skills. Its a balance point to the confusion factor of the class. If you’re going to base an entire class around confusion, why let it be taken away by ‘ctrl+t’? It wasn’t always this way and was changed after the first BWE (iirc).

If you don’t have a ranged weapon equipped, targeting someone doesn’t tell you where that player is. Targeting someone with a ranged weapon means all you have to do is press buttons and see where you point. Targeting with a melee weapon does almost nothing for you outside of single-target only skills; there are few of those and most of them still have to be used in melee range. That’s an important distinction to make.

kharza.3974:

This right now lets you get around the render bug because just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean you can’t target them.

However, it does give them a massive, and more importantly unbalanced, advantage. I’m almost positive thieves will be crying foul on how bad their class is once they’ve stopped taking advantage of being able to attack while invisible…if that ever gets fixed.

They’ll get over it and ‘L2P’ again though.

Nerf the thief based on bugs? Hell no…but fix the KITTEN balance-breaking bugs first please!

kharza.3974:

I’m not defending a backstab thief.. assassin’s signet is the problem and that is where the “nerf” should be applied.

I agree. But chances are, since nerfing sin sig will effect all skills while nerfing backstab will only effect backstab, they’ll probably go the route of nerfing backstab. Assuming its taken and they don’t do something entirely different and unpredicted.

kharza.3974:

Good players figured out the traits and utilities and synergies with gearing.. most bad players are playing traits because they sound cool or following the FOTM build posted here instead of actually learning the mechanics.

Which is why, a few months after release, you’re seeing thief nerfs. People hadn’t figured out how to play instagib thief builds in beta. Frenzy/HB was an easy one to figure out. It was found in a BWE and nerfed accordingly.

kharza.3974:

The reason I am here in Guild Wars 2 is because ArenaNet was supposed to be different. They actually use data, and while they are human and will make mistakes I believe they have the long term view in mind.. which is very refreshing. This is coming from a former RANGER who watched almost every other viable build get smashed by the short bow nerf..

Effective long-term balance changes need to be small, well-placed, and data intensive.

This is exactly why they haven’t done a ‘once around’ massive nerf of Retaliation. They’ve said its an issue, they’re trying to change how its used, and they’ve changed things bit by bit to gather proper, and very much needed, information about the effects.

They’ve known about HS, PW, BS, the shortbow, and even quickness for some time now. The thief nerfs are starting to roll in slowly. This is the beginning and it sucks to have your favorite class take hits after you’ve been playing it but they need to make a bumper sticker: “Balance Happens”

I believe they have something in store for quickness given the immediate locks of ‘nerf quickness’ posts that were put out early on but now are being let loose.

kharza.3974:

Oh yeah.. I’ve never back stabbed anyone on my thief.. ever… never liked the mechanic no matter how much damage it does.

Quoted this part since its the biggest argument used against nerfing backstab. I think we both agree that something will change with stealth+sin sig+backstab, and I’m not saying you’re using this statement to prove otherwise.

What I’m trying to say is, how you play individually has no bearing on game balance. There could be a super OP skill combo out there that nobody uses and they’ve never figured out. That doesn’t mean it isn’t OP.

I can’t reiterate this enough, I know that wasn’t your argument with this statement and I’m not trying to bring you out of context. I just feel that something needs to be pointed out about the use of it by others.

dragon tooth. 4 sec cast time, big red tooth falls out of the sky on your head that you can avoid.
FOUR.
the largest crit i have ever had on this ability was 3k
you would think an ability THAT SLOW , would have a risk vs reward

the problem is backstab can be done twice in a fight and hit upwards of 14k. AND THEN you can disappear after doing it.

You, sir, are just not playing your elementalist correctly… If you want to beat a thief, the trick is to GET AT THEIR LEVEL. You can’t catch them, you say? Try attuning to Air instead of Fire and then equipping double daggers. Stealth or no – you’ll be nigh un-catchable. Two can play at that game.

EDIT: Just thought I should note: My main is a ranger and I too got sick of getting kittened by thieves, so guess what? I rolled a thief alt to see what the class was about. Now I know what to look for. In fact, I learned so much that I decided to try it out with other classes and figure out how they tick. My suggestion to you is to take the time to roll some alts and learn in’s and out’s of their mechanics before you cry nerf.

frans.8092:

Vrak.2193:

… a Thief can linger on the outskirts of any battle and when the opportunity presents itself they can teleport in and 1-shot any squishy.

They can’t one-shot anyone (other then rabbits), but other then that, isn’t striking – and killing – swiftly and unseen an unsuspecting victim exactly what an assassin (thief) is supposed to do? Should their burst-capability be nerfed so they can never kill swiftly and no longer be able to be assassins and instead … do what?

Please tell us, what is your vision of the Thief profession?

You have all of the tools that you need to escape and reset a fight if your initial burst doesn’t outright kill your target. Just last night I was hit for a total of 14k with the 1-second combo that you can pull off. Mind you I have over 3k armor. There is simply no justification for any class needing that amount of burst damage.

People saying “L2Dodge” and other such stupid things are seriously deluded. How can you dodge a combo that can be done in 1 second? You are assuming that people can always see the thief coming and time the exact moment that he will use his lolburst combo.

Thieves can escape using multiple techniques… stealth, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Disabling Shot, etc… A good thief can easily kite any other class. So saying that they give up survivability doesn’t really hold water either.

I’m not going to say that backstab needs to be nerfed, but the 150% signet and quickness need to go along with the ability to chain multiple attacks at the same time.

Quoted from Shomaruki
“Backstab already does additional damage base on how much life someone is missing. So why not just make it where it can’t crit a target.”

Well the nerf arguments already failed, you just made the fail even more amusing!!
People get infractions for calmly posting, or the forum bugging and mis quoting someone else, but I bet he and people like him won’t get one for that…dooosey

Redscope.6215:

Effective long-term balance changes need to be small, well-placed, and data intensive.

This is exactly why they haven’t done a ‘once around’ massive nerf of Retaliation. They’ve said its an issue, they’re trying to change how its used, and they’ve changed things bit by bit to gather proper, and very much needed, information about the effects.

They’ve known about HS, PW, BS, the shortbow, and even quickness for some time now. The thief nerfs are starting to roll in slowly. This is the beginning and it sucks to have your favorite class take hits after you’ve been playing it but they need to make a bumper sticker: “Balance Happens”

I believe they have something in store for quickness given the immediate locks of ‘nerf quickness’ posts that were put out early on but now are being let loose.

Great part of the post and it is what gives me hope yet for this game. Totally agree and it is pretty apparent to people really paying attention and not being fundamentalist about their class that something is going to have to happen to quickness. I think the Ranger SB change was the precursor to that and I pretty much posted on the General thread asking why didn’t they just get rid of it (post lasted a whole 30 minutes before it got deleted).. the funny part was that I wasn’t trolling all that bad and really was just making examples out of where quickness was the heart of the issue not necessarily the skills themselves.

It is funny on the backstab part though.. one of the reasons why I didn’t go that route was because experience has taught me that it was going to get nerfed for sure and wouldn’t help me properly understand how to play a thief well. Much happier with the approach and build I took because it is a longer term sustainable solution and helped me really understand the thief mechanics considering I never got to play one in BWE (ranger and warrior and ended up rolling ranger main at launch.. sigh)

Good post man!

kharza.3974:

Great part of the post and it is what gives me hope yet for this game. Totally agree and it is pretty apparent to people really paying attention and not being fundamentalist about their class that something is going to have to happen to quickness. I think the Ranger SB change was the precursor to that and I pretty much posted on the General thread asking why didn’t they just get rid of it (post lasted a whole 30 minutes before it got deleted).. the funny part was that I wasn’t trolling all that bad and really was just making examples out of where quickness was the heart of the issue not necessarily the skills themselves.

It is funny on the backstab part though.. one of the reasons why I didn’t go that route was because experience has taught me that it was going to get nerfed for sure and wouldn’t help me properly understand how to play a thief well. Much happier with the approach and build I took because it is a longer term sustainable solution and helped me really understand the thief mechanics considering I never got to play one in BWE (ranger and warrior and ended up rolling ranger main at launch.. sigh)

Good post man!

Its not often I actually get praise from others on these forums. Thank you.

I’d have to concede that, other than those with porting hacks, I don’t run into any ‘issues’ whatsoever with rangers. That isn’t to say I haven’t had hard fights, though. They keep well at a distance but they have no means of immediately escaping a fight, which is a major balance point to classes that are better at ranged combat.

Another thing to note with more balanced classes is its pretty easy to tell good players apart from bad ones and there are some very visible differences when playing with and against the ranger.

@Redscope They arent showing much intelligence in regards to well-placed and data intensive based balance changes.

need an example? See heartseeker nerf

need the best example?
See Pistol whip nerf ….. and yet to fix the “bugged” self root on a mobility based class