Guild Wars 2

I have no idea how you say you can spam it. It’s pretty easy to dodge. I have guys walk out of its way all the time. When yiu see a flanking strike, stay out of the way. And in a Zerg fight, who cares. No balance in a Zerg vs Zerg. It’s numbers vs numbers and a thief could spam flanking strike the same way necros and eles spam aoe conditions.

I like it. I use s/d and d/p since my sb seems useless now with no heat seeker. Yiu can strafe out of the way. If someone tries to run away. I shadow step with 2 on the sword, immobilize, Cnd then 1 that outs a daze on and then sometimes, depending on the class, they’ll throw their boons up when retreating so I can just remove those.

With this setup I feel like I can tango with guards and eles now.

MIrra.3604:

Wow, you know jack kitten about thieves outside of Spvp. Obviously, you only play sPvP and do not or rarely play WvW. I can hit for upwards of 6K with LS on my 10/30/30/0/0 or 0/30/30/10/0 build. I have 50% crit chance, 270% crit damage (150% base), and close to 4K attack. 4K crits is the norm and 5+K crits if target is below 50%.

I run HIS for heals and blinding powder so tactical strike is aways available if the situation calls for it. In WvW, there is no build that will win 1v1 against a good S/D thief. The most they can do is run for their life. The closest would be either a trap ranger or phast mesmer, but in WvW, that is almost a none issue since you’re fighting in an open area and not a 600 radius capture point.

Stop speaking as if PvP doesn’t happens outside of Spvp. /shrug

Lmao. I’m sorry, I’m a little too busy with the zerg fest in WvW using D/D + main bow (30/30/0/0/10) or balanced between damage/survival D/D (0/30/30/10/0). Yeah, you can do your 1v1 dances in WvW while I struggle to get points for my server. My goal is to kill someone asap, get points, the end.

Anyway, PvP S/D thief has CnD (50% reduced damage)/Tactical strike duration (1.5 seconds) nerfed. WvW has no nerf to it. When someone says NERF FS/LS, it better not be PvP.

Learn the difference.

You guys can cry all you want but FS/LS wont get nerfed. I play every class and I have 0 problems with a S/D thief. Spamming LS is only good vs boon reliant bunkers. Anet isn’t going to leave necros being the only heavy boon reliant bunker counter. If you see a S/D thief don’t spam boons to counter him at the start. Just kite him and make him dump initiative on roots and defensively using FS. Hint: dodging LS is as easy as dodging a ranger’s pet. He will either run or take a crap ton of damage. If you can’t handle a S/D thief then idk what you expect to do against a D/P thief that crits for 2x the damage when you can’t see it coming and does more with an auto attack rotation initiative free, on top of reduces healing by 33%, all while you’re blinded. Stealth 8k crit > 1/2 second evade 5k crit. I can infinitely stealth to reset a fight if I need to also. If I prep my escape with S/D I lose my root and my sole means to get my LS off on a target that isn’t kittened.

TLDR: FS/LS will get nerfed after every stealth build and every boon reliant bunker.

bobross.5034:

not sure what your point here is, is it:

ANET is always right, so when they nerfed stealth, it proved that stealth needed a nerf?
if thats the point, well then why are you arguing with ANETS decision? they buffed this, therefore it must’ve needed buffing.

or maybe your point is that thiefs always need nerfing.
if that’s your point then it leads me to one of two conclusions;
1-you’re on here complaining because this buff hurt your favorite build…maybe d/d ele. and rather than openly complain about it, you decided to pose as a thief player demanding a self nerf…if that’s the case, you should just switch to the newest OP’d class…I hear s/d thieves are pretty good.

or

2-you play thief and are just so tired of it always being so easy, so you want ANET to nerf it into hard mode. if this is the case, you can always just ditch your gear…try playing with lvl 20 weapons, or if you’re playing pvp, steady weapons are a nice change. if that’s not enough, you could play with no armor.

I’m not saying ANet is always right, I’m saying that probably the huge amount of people who complaiend about Backstab combo were a right after all and we all remember how the Thief community responded to every Backstab combo complaints. So I’m trying to say that about 80% of the Thief forum attenders, the ones who justify everything with “you can dodge”, “thief has nothing but X”, “thief is squishy” and so on, pretty much the 70% of the posts we can see in this topic, probably don’t know that much about balance and are too much biased toward their profession. That’s all.

And yes, if you read the OP, you should know that I understand a little buff to Flanking Strike to increase the S/D utilization, maybe to the pathing, but not this kind of buff.

As I proved, I play no boon reliant profession.
Is that strange to you if someone wants to have his profession to be balanced and rewarding skills instead of mindless spamming?

sorrow.2364:

I’m not saying ANet is always right, I’m saying that probably the huge amount of people who complaiend about Backstab combo were a right after all and we all remember how the Thief community responded to every Backstab combo complaints. So I’m trying to say that about 80% of the Thief forum attenders, the ones who justify everything with “you can dodge”, “thief has nothing but X”, “thief is squishy” and so on, pretty much the 70% of the posts we can see in this topic, probably don’t know that much about balance and are too much biased toward their profession. That’s all.

And yes, if you read the OP, you should know that I understand a little buff to Flanking Strike to increase the S/D utilization, maybe to the pathing, but not this kind of buff.

As I proved, I play no boon reliant profession.
Is that strange to you if someone wants to have his profession to be balanced and rewarding skills instead of mindless spamming?

While i agree with what you have to say on some parts, Flanking strike is not overbuffed. The damage went from below average, to Satisfying numbers. In reality you’re not goin to connect both stabs 100% of the time and when you steal boons from other players, they’re usually bunker builds and they can just reapply. What’s wrong with that?

What do you mean by ‘spammable’? All thieve skills are spammable, it’s the profession itself. I mean, it’s still got a 4 initiative cost.

I think S/D has a role only in WvW and PvP and even then, it’s very weak against single target compared to the other weapon sets. This means that it turns the thief basically into a support role with: immobilization, daze, boon removal, cripple

Now, i may just be a crap thief or whatever, but i find it extremely difficult to kill classes 1v1 with S/D even with the boon removal.

bladie.5084:

While i agree with what you have to say on some parts, Flanking strike is not overbuffed. The damage went from below average, to Satisfying numbers. In reality you’re not goin to connect both stabs 100% of the time and when you steal boons from other players, they’re usually bunker builds and they can just reapply. What’s wrong with that?

There are two things wrong:
1. On bunker builds, as long as the boon is reapplied, it is stolen again. You need only 5 seconds to regain 4 initiative, without considering all the initiative-regen traits. Considering that bunkers haven’t an infinite source of boons and they are usually linked to a recharge too, you are essentialy becoming the boon-bunker yourself when you are facing one, while removing all their protection. It is a too hard counter to be considered balanced.
2. LS hurts low-boon reliant professions like warriors even more then bunkers. Being able to strip, let’s say, the effect of Signet of Rage with 2 LS is even more game-breaking then constantly strip boons on bunkers.

I hate the change made to flanking strike. I’m used to the one-click evade thing, so there are times when I’ll click it twice and not use the second attack for some reason, then there are times where I’ll have to click it 3 times and go right into the second dodge, again leaving me open.

I would’ve preferred it if it stayed just one skill, one button press. Now it just adds more ways that the skill can mess up.

sorrow.2364:

bladie.5084:

While i agree with what you have to say on some parts, Flanking strike is not overbuffed. The damage went from below average, to Satisfying numbers. In reality you’re not goin to connect both stabs 100% of the time and when you steal boons from other players, they’re usually bunker builds and they can just reapply. What’s wrong with that?

There are two things wrong:
1. On bunker builds, as long as the boon is reapplied, it is stolen again. You need only 5 seconds to regain 4 initiative, without considering all the initiative-regen traits. Considering that bunkers haven’t an infinite source of boons and they are usually linked to a recharge too, you are essentialy becoming the boon-bunker yourself when you are facing one, while removing all their protection. It is a too hard counter to be considered balanced.
2. LS hurts low-boon reliant professions like warriors even more then bunkers. Being able to strip, let’s say, the effect of Signet of Rage with 2 LS is even more game-breaking then constantly strip boons on bunkers.

But you’re assuming every S/D thieves will concentrate their build in init regain, spamming FS. Which is totally not the case. And lets say there are thieves like that (which I’m sure there are) There are major weaknesses and the skill can be prevented if know how done correctly. But again, you are talking about a situation where a thief will land all of his FS.

Number two is situational. And if traited right, the warrior can do exceptionally more dmg to thieves. You’ll have swift, might, and fury which boosts a warrior’s dmg (if traited). Honestly I don’t understand when you’re fighting the same opponents over and over again whether in spvp or wvwvw, they seem to think that using ur elite on an opener is win. You know what’s also game breaking? Thief opens with basilisk venom, I shadow return. ranger uses elite root, I use withdraw or shadow return, Ele uses tornado, i kite with SB, mesmer uses moa, I run, engi uses package for stun, Break stun! My point is that elites can be countered really easy. Except guardians. KEKEKEKEKE.

But you don’t understand, that stealth is what’s op about thieves.

sorrow.2364:

Daecollo.9578:

I play Spvp and WvWvW and I still don’t see many S/D Thieves.

Most of the thieves I see are heartseeking cloak and dagger and P/D, D/P Infinite stealth thieves.

Just
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/showposts/sorrow-2364/9
You: The pathing of FS is fine. The first strike always land if you are in melee range, the second one needs you to get closer to enemy if he moved, not to hard anyway. I don’t see any problem here.

This is from a long time ago when flanking strike was absolutely horrible, a lot of your posts are NOTHING but about trying to get thieves nerfed. Your posts not only /FLAT OUT LIE/ about our class, your blatantly constantly assaulting it in hopes it gets nerfed.

Pages 1-7 are constantly being asked for thieves skills to be nerfed, complaining about stealth, asking for things to be nerfed.

Do you ever take a break? If you hate thieves so much why don’t you play one instead of complaining about them?

Attachment.
So the fact that I play a Thief means I have to cry like a baby and start hating when someone says “nerf” and “thief” in the same sentence and only suggesting buffs for my dear, beloved profession?

Nice Thief dude, he must be your main charracter.
33% map complete and nice green armor

FS is easy to dodge with same damage as does your autoattack.

Evilek.5690:

Nice Thief dude, he must be your main charracter.
33% map complete and nice green armor

FS is easy to dodge with same damage as does your autoattack.

1. It isn’t green armor. It is transmuted exotic set to sylvari racial.
2. Does map completation really matters? I didn’t even completed the main story, does that mean that I haven’t played thief? I just play dungeons, WvWvW and s/tPvP. I don’t care about map completation.

And to all those “you can dodge” arguments.
Assuming you succed to avoid the first Flanking Strike and let’s say you succed to avoid the second also. Now you have empty endurance bar and your enemy with 4 initiative left.
Obviously this is a fringe case when you are playing 1vs1, without any other enemy’s skill to avoid and without considering any initiative regen skill/trait, in a real situation avoiding all the FS is impossible due to the frequency it is casted, that means that once you are against an S/D thief, you better have no boons at all.

Obv the “you can dodge” argument is not valid in the case of thieves since they can spam the exact same skill. But what happened to the unique-ness of Sigils, Runes, and foods? What about all that CCing other classes bring to the table that thieves lack?

sorrow.2364:

Wolfield.9812:

Dont spam the skill.

Glad i could help you, please enjoy the rest of your day.

That’s not the point.
The point is that I can spam the skill and get good results, so there is no point into using it properly.
The game should encourage players to get better and get skilled to win, not spamming. Am I right?

Oh brother…i`m sure any other “spammable” skill from any other profession is nowhere near as hated. It`s like 90% threads in the thief section is either by people who clearly state they are not thieves and want this profession obliterated OR people like you who “play a thief” #wink wink# and want it obliterated. I play a thief and i want it to be easy mode. Since that won`t happen i want it to at least not be the laughing stock. Spammable boon stealing is OP… C`mon man, you`re not even trying here!

bladie.5084:

Obv the “you can dodge” argument is not valid in the case of thieves since they can spam the exact same skill. But what happened to the unique-ness of Sigils, Runes, and foods? What about all that CCing other classes bring to the table that thieves lack?

Do you know what swords stealth attack does?

bladie.5084:

Obv the “you can dodge” argument is not valid in the case of thieves since they can spam the exact same skill. But what happened to the unique-ness of Sigils, Runes, and foods? What about all that CCing other classes bring to the table that thieves lack?

Don’t forget that on the same bar of S/D there is Shadow Return, which is the only stunbreaker in the game which is also a weapon skill. Also, it costs initiative too!
I don’t think the CC other classes bring to the table are a real problem to thieves, neither I think that the lack of CC on thieves is a good reason to justify the insane amount of boon stripping FS guarantee.

Stardrift.7360:

Oh brother…i`m sure any other “spammable” skill from any other profession is nowhere near as hated. It`s like 90% threads in the thief section is either by people who clearly state they are not thieves and want this profession obliterated OR people like you who “play a thief” #wink wink# and want it obliterated. I play a thief and i want it to be easy mode. Since that won`t happen i want it to at least not be the laughing stock. Spammable boon stealing is OP… C`mon man, you`re not even trying here!

Seriously, making FS stealing only one boon means making thief obliterated?
How are you guys scared about balance?

sorrow.2364:

TheGuy.3568:

Imho its not necessarily OP. Classes like ele and guardian have strong access to boons so stripping them often becomes a necessity and it will not alwaykitten. The problem is classes with weak access to boons are punished too heavily in a fight. A class that can get swiftness every ten seconds isn’t going to be as affected by this as a class that gets it every minutes. Also because the timers to not reset to base you can literally have thieves with buffs times they were never supposed to get access to. However, considering what flanking strike used to be I think the change was necessary. They may need to nerf it in the future. That being said I do not think they will because it is important to meta.

I know what they did, they buffed Flanking Strike to tone down all boon-heavy professions like Elementalist and Guardian, but right now they did a bit too much.

I mean, they were supposed to give tools to play against those profession, not tools to completely destroy their mechanic. You can easily use a flanking strike every 4-5 seconds or less, which means 2 boons stolen every 4 seconds, which is HUGE.

Arenanet fails to understand balance, and they make a couple of skills mandatory win buttons while the rest end up being subpar/uselesss. Such as Necromancer’s Putrid Mark (can’t spam it though), Warrior GS 3 (can’t spam it though), Thief Heartseeker/Larcenous, Mesmer Blurred Frenzy, Ranger Traps/Pet(Entire pet, OP), Engineer Supply Crate (can’t be spammed, but too good compared to other options), Guardian invulnerability (can’t be spammed), Elementalist Firegrab/RidetheLightning (can’t be spammed… anymore)

sorrow.2364:

Seriously, making FS stealing only one boon means making thief obliterated?
How are you guys scared about balance?

Ummm… FS stealing was the revamping attempt of a weapon set that had well…almost nothing. Coupled with the fact that d/d takes a beating with every patch, giving something mediocre in return, then reducing it to almost nothing is silly. You have to be REALLY slow to react if someone can FS you more than once AND kill you with those boons. Personally i don`t use S/D, cuz it`s not that spectacular. Oh yeah i`d advise you against the use of words like “balance”, it doesn`t mean what you think it does

Master of Timespace.2548:

Do you know what swords stealth attack does?

Yes and I certainly know what dagger stealth does too.

Nerf d/p skill 5 then nerf s/d skill 2

sorrow.2364:

I liked the old Flanking Strike, I played that set in the age where D/D backstab and heartseeker spammers were rampant and have a lot of fun with it.

The single boon removal, the dodge and the unforgiving pathing made that skill a real challange giving great results if user properly.
I needed to know where is the right position to cast it to make the skill land, I needed to know when to use it to remove the right boon because I wasn’t able to afford to spam it to remove all the boons.

I understand that some people who are used to leap skills like HS may get frustrated on Flanking Strike and then refused to use it, in fact the path adjusting is the only buff I can understand.

But they completely messed it. Right now, Flanking Strike is the new era of succesful spammers. 2-2-2-2 has become 3-3-3-3. You can easily steal ALL boons from any boon-reliant profession with no efforts at all while dealing sweet constant damage, evading and have the initiative cost split in 2 installments.
I mean, why? It’s like they want the Thief to be the hole where all the spammers, FotM abusers and baddies should be confined to.

22222 spammers were never successful.

sorrow.2364:

Don’t forget that on the same bar of S/D there is Shadow Return, which is the only stunbreaker in the game which is also a weapon skill.

Mesmers got one too.

sorrow.2364:

Don’t forget that on the same bar of S/D there is Shadow Return, which is the only stunbreaker in the game which is also a weapon skill. Also, it costs initiative too!
I don’t think the CC other classes bring to the table are a real problem to thieves, neither I think that the lack of CC on thieves is a good reason to justify the insane amount of boon stripping FS guarantee.

Don’t underestimate the cost of Infil strike, The skill as a whole costs 5 initiative. So lets add it all up. Infil strike as opener [2 init], CnD + steal [6 init], auto attack daze, 1st flanking strike attempt failed [4 init], 2nd one hits [4 init], does another CnD [6 init] daze and pulls off another flanking strike [4 init]. Oh shi shadow return is running out, lets return [another 3 init]. So in a time frame of 9-14 seconds you’ve burned this much init already. And lets keep in mind that the boons you work so hard to steal will vanish in a matter of seconds. So you are now back to square 1 with low initiatives and usekitten ons that aren’t helping you regain init any faster. And you know what sucks? The other class can re-apply their boons within seconds. Not all of their boons but most of them. Lets assume you are specced into regen inits. Lets take all the initiative and half it. But lets also assume… That you’re fighting an actual decent player who’s knowledgeable in how to trait their class and the right sigils/runes/foods to use.. Well. kitten.. Back to square one? CCing plays a huge role in any games, It’s like you’re underestimating it. It’s what other players use to pressure thieves. To get them to spam infil strike and return.. and again and again. or get them to cnd or D/P trololol stealth. I was in no way directly/indirectly implying that we should have boon ripping skills because we lack CC’s. Also, a knowledgeable player should always try to be aware of the position where the sword thief left to infil strike. You always want to pressure him to go in the direction of his spot. There fore if you pressured him to return, you can maintain your dps and CC. Why let the thief control the fight, why not start thinking outside the box?

sorrow.2364:

Seriously, making FS stealing only one boon means making thief obliterated?
How are you guys scared about balance?

Why try balancing an already balanced skill? I don’t doubt you being among the thief community but i really question your gameplay time on a S/D. There is more to S/D thieves then FS. You are honestly looking in the wrong direction to balance the thief class.

Karolis.4261:

22222 spammers were never successful.

This is prolly one of the most simple yet honest truth ever.

Stardrift.7360:

sorrow.2364:

Seriously, making FS stealing only one boon means making thief obliterated?
How are you guys scared about balance?

Ummm… FS stealing was the revamping attempt of a weapon set that had well…almost nothing. Coupled with the fact that d/d takes a beating with every patch, giving something mediocre in return, then reducing it to almost nothing is silly. You have to be REALLY slow to react if someone can FS you more than once AND kill you with those boons. Personally i don`t use S/D, cuz it`s not that spectacular. Oh yeah i`d advise you against the use of words like “balance”, it doesn`t mean what you think it does

And exactly what does it mean “balance” to you?
Looks like that, for you, “balance” is some sort of punishment everyone is forced to take. If D/D was overperforming, you just tone it down, you don’t deserve some sort of refund for the nerf you got. Same applies to buffs. If something is underperforming, it should be buffed. Period. You don’t need to nerf something else in return.

And please, please, stop with the dodge argument, seriously.

bladie.5084:

Why try balancing an already balanced skill? I don’t doubt you being among the thief community but i really question your gameplay time on a S/D. There is more to S/D thieves then FS. You are honestly looking in the wrong direction to balance the thief class.

S/D isn’t balanced at the moment. The simple fact that most thieves are running that set now is a symptom of something which doesn’t work.

FS would be balanced if it stole only one boon of if it had its initiative cost increased.

Actually, excluding P/P that may need some work, every thief set is worth running, making thief one of the most balanced class the game has right now. If they only didn’t messed with S/D, of course.

I would compare this situation with thief nerfs to the creation of skim milk. You heat the milk (QQ about thief) which makes the cream (current best thief build) rise to the top so it may be removed (nerf thief build). You repeat the process (QQ about the next thing>nerf>thieves switch builds) until you have skim milk (profession is useless overall).

As far as I can tell, not alot of people like skim milk.

Look LS needed the change. However, vs let use warrior for example because of weak access to boons being able to spam this makes it too oppressive. At the same time ( please read carefully) it is absolutely needed. Because, of builds like HGH,bunker ele and guardian where you need to spam the boons off. IMHO there should be ways to stop a boon from being ripped for classes who have limited access to boons. I do not think thief needs a nerf here. Other places yes here no.

We’re thieves. It’s about time we had a “reliable” steal. The Sword/Dagger weapon set is probably the most balanced right where it should be weapon set in the game at the moment.

As always:

sorrow.2364:

S/D isn’t balanced at the moment. The simple fact that most thieves are running that set now is a symptom of something which doesn’t work.

FS would be balanced if it stole only one boon of if it had its initiative cost increased.

Actually, excluding P/P that may need some work, every thief set is worth running, making thief one of the most balanced class the game has right now. If they only didn’t messed with S/D, of course.

Then why is it that yourself, is the only person whos posted about this on the forums? Surely it’s so bad to the point where you will see multiple posts about this issue? Perhaps you’ve noticed this being so OP that it literally shuts down bunker builds. Or perhaps it doesn’t affect them to that degree where they feel they have to post about it?

I just had to count how many the OP’s posts were in this thread before deciding should I take this seriously or not. 13. Move along, nothing to see here.
Oh, maybe there is only 1 thing I can agree on – that Larcenous should activate only on a hit from Flanking.

bladie.5084:

Then why is it that yourself, is the only person whos posted about this on the forums? Surely it’s so bad to the point where you will see multiple posts about this issue? Perhaps you’ve noticed this being so OP that it literally shuts down bunker builds. Or perhaps it doesn’t affect them to that degree where they feel they have to post about it?

There are people who are saying that LS is a bit too much, there are also some topics into the sPvP forum.
Anyway, it isn’t that gamebreaking OP, like the guardian’s blocking bug was, I never said that. I’ve just said it is a bit too much and it would ruin the meta and destroy variety, as any imbalance do.

I don’t know if you played PvP recently, but about 80% of thief players are running S/D.
Once the number grows and people realize it, you’ll see the number of elementalists/guardian decrease drammaticaly and ranger bunker being the most overused bunkers because they don’t need boons to tank.

We moved from the Elementalist meta to the Thief/Ranger meta. In both cases there are imbalances and denying there aren’t doesn’t help.

My suggestion is simple. Either increase the initiative cost to 5 or reduce the number of boon stolen to 1. Does it make S/D worthless? I don’t think so. Does it help to balance the meta between boon-stripping and boon-reliant professions? Yes, it does.

I don’t think it does too much damage nor do i think it uses too little initiative, but i do think 2 boons stolen is too much.

Nerf Flanking Strike

Changes After
Cloak and Dagger now costs 5 initiative.
Dancing Dagger now does 200% more damage. (back to what it was.)
Flanking Strike now costs less initiative and the evade duration is double.
Mug now criticals again.

bladie.5084:

Don’t underestimate the cost of Infil strike, The skill as a whole costs 5 initiative. So lets add it all up. Infil strike as opener [2 init], CnD + steal [6 init], auto attack daze, 1st flanking strike attempt failed [4 init], 2nd one hits [4 init], does another CnD [6 init] daze and pulls off another flanking strike [4 init]. Oh shi shadow return is running out, lets return [another 3 init]. So in a time frame of 9-14 seconds you’ve burned this much init already. And lets keep in mind that the boons you work so hard to steal will vanish in a matter of seconds. So you are now back to square 1 with low initiatives and usekitten ons that aren’t helping you regain init any faster. And you know what sucks? The other class can re-apply their boons within seconds. Not all of their boons but most of them. Lets assume you are specced into regen inits. Lets take all the initiative and half it. But lets also assume… That you’re fighting an actual decent player who’s knowledgeable in how to trait their class and the right sigils/runes/foods to use.. Well. kitten.. Back to square one? CCing plays a huge role in any games, It’s like you’re underestimating it. It’s what other players use to pressure thieves. To get them to spam infil strike and return.. and again and again. or get them to cnd or D/P trololol stealth. I was in no way directly/indirectly implying that we should have boon ripping skills because we lack CC’s. Also, a knowledgeable player should always try to be aware of the position where the sword thief left to infil strike. You always want to pressure him to go in the direction of his spot. There fore if you pressured him to return, you can maintain your dps and CC. Why let the thief control the fight, why not start thinking outside the box?

What the unholy Tartarus is this anecdote.

• IS as an opener is 3 initiative, not 2
• Why are you possibly burning C&D and steal if you are already within range (because that’s why you would burn IS as an opener) and your foe is immobilized?
• You failed a Flanking Strike attempt, so either you lost the 3 initiative for the first hit, or the 1 for the second. If you miss both halves of that chain, you probably need to push less buttons.
• But you reliably pull off a C&D -> Daze. Okay.
• Using Shadow Return just because it was about to run out, not because you had conditions to cleanse / needed the stun-break.
• Shadow Return (From the sword skill) is only 2 initiative, not 3.
• You didn’t even total up the initiative used in your own scenario. (It’s 30.)
• If the boons you stole are useless, why were you even attempting flanking strike instead of just the 1-chain of the sword?

As it is, you’ve stolen 4 boons in that scenario, which determines a lot of the “Was this worth it?” factor. If you stole boons that weren’t really useful to you though, that’s still your strategically poor choice.

I don’t know that any boon is useless, per se.

If I were to change something about flanking strike, it would just be toning the damage down. The skill is supposed to be an evade/boon steal utility-type skill, but you can still do fairly decent damage with it as well. I feel that’s a bit too much rolled into one package. It’s no backstab or anything, but backstab doesn’t evade and steal boons.

I think infiltrator’s strike is a much better candidate for being OP though.

It has the same damage as sword auto-attack.

Why would the damage need to be toned down? It hits for the same amount as the 3rd hit on the auto attack chain. No one uses it for damage unless your target has aegis up or another block up. Auto attack chain does more damage in about the same time. I would rather use the initiative on cnd/daze combo verse doing damage with LS. I might possibly use FS for the evade though depending on the circumstance.

Daecollo.9578:

It has the same damage as sword auto-attack.

Actually, I think it’s a bit more, although I am only comparing actual damage instead of DPS.

And that is my entire point. The skill is supposed to provide evasion and boon stealing, which is what the initiative cost is for. However, it will still give decent damage output at the same time. If it didn’t have quite as much damage, you could still rely on it just as much for utility, but you’d have to switch it up more often to ensure you killed someone.

As such, I’d say any balancing done to the skill (not that it warrants a ton of balancing anyways) is much better as a damage reduction instead of a utility reduction (i.e. only stealing one boon, evading for 1/4s instead of 1/2).

Yamsandjams.3267:

Daecollo.9578:

It has the same damage as sword auto-attack.

Actually, I think it’s a bit more, although I am only comparing actual damage instead of DPS.

And that is my entire point. The skill is supposed to provide evasion and boon stealing, which is what the initiative cost is for. However, it will still give decent damage output at the same time. If it didn’t have quite as much damage, you could still rely on it just as much for utility, but you’d have to switch it up more often to ensure you killed someone.

As such, I’d say any balancing done to the skill (not that it warrants a ton of balancing anyways) is much better as a damage reduction instead of a utility reduction (i.e. only stealing one boon, evading for 1/4s instead of 1/2).

S/D has 2 swings that do anything close to decent damage – Crippling Stike (Sword AA chain finisher), and LS. Both are highly telegraphed, .5s activation time swings. Every other attack does sub-par damage. While these 2 attacks do alot of damage, they have pre-requisites, and as such bring the overall DPS of S/D up to acceptable.

If LS is doing too much damage, FS and both AA swings preceding the finisher need a damage buff.

As a point of reference – with 2119 power, against a Heavy Target Dummy
-Slash and Slice do 622 damage, no additional effects, and have .5s activation times. They are both part of the AA chain that leads to Crippling Strike.
-Infiltrators strike does 582 damage.
-Flanking strike does 582 damage, and is a 3init pre-req for LS.
-DD does 388 damage (It’s not intended as a direct damage ability, but since it’s part of S/D’s weaponset, we should look at it)
-CnD does 778 damage, and costs 6 init.

evilapprentice.6379:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Daecollo.9578:

It has the same damage as sword auto-attack.

Actually, I think it’s a bit more, although I am only comparing actual damage instead of DPS.

And that is my entire point. The skill is supposed to provide evasion and boon stealing, which is what the initiative cost is for. However, it will still give decent damage output at the same time. If it didn’t have quite as much damage, you could still rely on it just as much for utility, but you’d have to switch it up more often to ensure you killed someone.

As such, I’d say any balancing done to the skill (not that it warrants a ton of balancing anyways) is much better as a damage reduction instead of a utility reduction (i.e. only stealing one boon, evading for 1/4s instead of 1/2).

S/D has 2 swings that do anything close to decent damage – Crippling Stike (Sword AA chain finisher), and LS. Both are highly telegraphed, .5s activation time swings. Every other attack does sub-par damage. While these 2 attacks do alot of damage, they have pre-requisites, and as such bring the overall DPS of S/D up to acceptable.

If LS is doing too much damage, FS and both AA swings preceding the finisher need a damage buff.

As a point of reference – with 2119 power, against a Heavy Target Dummy
-Slash and Slice do 622 damage, no additional effects, and have .5s activation times. They are both part of the AA chain that leads to Crippling Strike.
-Infiltrators strike does 582 damage.
-Flanking strike does 582 damage, and is a 3init pre-req for LS.
-DD does 388 damage (It’s not intended as a direct damage ability, but since it’s part of S/D’s weaponset, we should look at it)
-CnD does 778 damage, and costs 6 init.

I was comparing the entire auto-attack chain to the FS-LS chain, not just LS itself.

Does FS not still do 2 hits? I was under the impression that it did, although I haven’t bothered to watch in game, just assumed that it still did. Wiki had it listed as two hits as well.

Also, with that sort of damage on the auto-attack, you’ll probably be hitting for about 900-1k DPS on 2600 armor before crits or any other bonuses. That doesn’t sound that bad… mind you I’m used to playing lower DPS builds.

Yamsandjams.3267:

evilapprentice.6379:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Daecollo.9578:

It has the same damage as sword auto-attack.

Actually, I think it’s a bit more, although I am only comparing actual damage instead of DPS.

And that is my entire point. The skill is supposed to provide evasion and boon stealing, which is what the initiative cost is for. However, it will still give decent damage output at the same time. If it didn’t have quite as much damage, you could still rely on it just as much for utility, but you’d have to switch it up more often to ensure you killed someone.

As such, I’d say any balancing done to the skill (not that it warrants a ton of balancing anyways) is much better as a damage reduction instead of a utility reduction (i.e. only stealing one boon, evading for 1/4s instead of 1/2).

S/D has 2 swings that do anything close to decent damage – Crippling Stike (Sword AA chain finisher), and LS. Both are highly telegraphed, .5s activation time swings. Every other attack does sub-par damage. While these 2 attacks do alot of damage, they have pre-requisites, and as such bring the overall DPS of S/D up to acceptable.

If LS is doing too much damage, FS and both AA swings preceding the finisher need a damage buff.

As a point of reference – with 2119 power, against a Heavy Target Dummy
-Slash and Slice do 622 damage, no additional effects, and have .5s activation times. They are both part of the AA chain that leads to Crippling Strike.
-Infiltrators strike does 582 damage.
-Flanking strike does 582 damage, and is a 3init pre-req for LS.
-DD does 388 damage (It’s not intended as a direct damage ability, but since it’s part of S/D’s weaponset, we should look at it)
-CnD does 778 damage, and costs 6 init.

I was comparing the entire auto-attack chain to the FS-LS chain, not just LS itself.

Does FS not still do 2 hits? I was under the impression that it did, although I haven’t bothered to watch in game, just assumed that it still did. Wiki had it listed as two hits as well.

Also, with that sort of damage on the auto-attack, you’ll probably be hitting for about 900-1k DPS on 2600 armor before crits or any other bonuses. That doesn’t sound that bad… mind you I’m used to playing lower DPS builds.

I don’t follow your last paragraph – those numbers are what the skills strike for (average of the variance at least) on the heavy target dummy (which has 2600 armor) for the power that I listed. I pulled the numbers from gw2skills.net, and just tested myself in the mists.

Post-Patch FS is 2 strikes – 3init for the evading strike, which chains to a 1init LS, instead of both strikes firing on 1 use of FS for 4 init.

AA chain and FS-LS are actually pretty comparable – they do very comparable damage per second.
AA chain does 622+622+1010 over 1.5s = 1502dps
FS-LS does 582+1166 over 1s. = 1748dps

Yeah, FS-LS does slightly more DPS (roughly 15%) than AA chain, which is to be expected from skills that cost Init.

evilapprentice.6379:

Yeah, FS-LS does slightly more DPS (roughly 15%) than AA chain, which is to be expected from skills that cost Init.

That’s my point though. Not all skills that cost init need to have superior damage if they provide something else. You’re already paying init for evasion and boon stealing, but you’re also getting superior (or at the very least, comparable) damage on top of it.

Infiltrator’s strike does not offer superior damage because of the utility it provides.

Dancing dagger does not provide superior damage because of the utility it provides.

Cloak and dagger does not provide superior damage because of the utility it provides.

Other skills are that way (i.e. heartseeker, unload), but they also don’t provide the same level of utility (at least by themselves).

So FS-LS does not need to have superior damage to the auto-attack chain just because it costs initiative, and especially because it provides some unique utility.

Does this make the skills unbalanced? I don’t know. However, if FS-LS does need balancing, it’s probably best to hit it with a damage reduction instead of a utility reduction (i.e. less damage, not kitten ons stolen), because the utility is the core of the skill, not the damage.

Yamsandjams.3267:

evilapprentice.6379:

Yeah, FS-LS does slightly more DPS (roughly 15%) than AA chain, which is to be expected from skills that cost Init.

That’s my point though. Not all skills that cost init need to have superior damage if they provide something else. You’re already paying init for evasion and boon stealing, but you’re also getting superior (or at the very least, comparable) damage on top of it.

Infiltrator’s strike does not offer superior damage because of the utility it provides.

Dancing dagger does not provide superior damage because of the utility it provides.

Cloak and dagger does not provide superior damage because of the utility it provides.

Other skills are that way (i.e. heartseeker, unload), but they also don’t provide the same level of utility (at least by themselves).

So FS-LS does not need to have superior damage to the auto-attack chain just because it costs initiative, and especially because it provides some unique utility.

Does this make the skills unbalanced? I don’t know. However, if FS-LS does need balancing, it’s probably best to hit it with a damage reduction instead of a utility reduction (i.e. less damage, not kitten ons stolen), because the utility is the core of the skill, not the damage.

FS/LS is more than fine. It does slightly more damage than AA in a set that is characterized by its poor burst but strong consistent damage, all in a class that has low health and poor defensive options and generally relies on burst damage to remain relevant.

People don’t like fighting thieves. It’s unfortunate that they don’t just sit there and get demolished, but people will eventually get used it.

Edit: Let’s also not forget the second point I mentioned – S/D does extremely poor damage as a weaponset if you can avoid crippling strike and LS. If you nerf LS, you’ll have a weaponset that has a single DPS move at the end of a 1.5s long AA chain – IE, easy to dodge, and easy to pressure a squishy thief out of using (since they’re so reliant on FS and SR to avoid damage, ruining the AA chain). Against players who don’t stack/rely on boons, LS is just a decently hard hit that makes up for how weak the weapons other attacks are, and can be mixed into the playstyle effectively. LS Can do less damage the second Slice, Slash and FS do more damage.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Daecollo.9578:

It has the same damage as sword auto-attack.

Actually, I think it’s a bit more, although I am only comparing actual damage instead of DPS.

And that is my entire point. The skill is supposed to provide evasion and boon stealing, which is what the initiative cost is for. However, it will still give decent damage output at the same time. If it didn’t have quite as much damage, you could still rely on it just as much for utility, but you’d have to switch it up more often to ensure you killed someone.

As such, I’d say any balancing done to the skill (not that it warrants a ton of balancing anyways) is much better as a damage reduction instead of a utility reduction (i.e. only stealing one boon, evading for 1/4s instead of 1/2).

Its 1/2 second evade because that is the length of the animation. If they lowered the evade duration they would have to speed up the animation because you would be effectively ccing yourself for 1/4 sec. The whole weapon set is built around evading damage so giving someone an opening to do damage to you everytime you use FS would be dumb.

Anyways this whole thread needs to end because there is absolutely nothing overpowered about S/D. It was buffed solely to counter boon heavy bunkers and it doesn’t do a better job than D/x at fighting anyone else. I think everyone keeps forgetting that FS/LS is only 1/2 second of evading with another 1/2 animation to actually utilize LS (1 full second to actually get boons and do unblockable damage). If the thief managed to dodge an attack using the 1/2 second evade then I am 100% confident the intended target of LS can dodge LS or counter it with a quicker cc in that same time frame. I have 0 problems doing it.

If you need help fighting a S/D thief I can break it down for you. They are going to try and root you for 1 guaranteed FS/LS combo so I wait on my boons till after that. Once I pop boons it instantly baits the next FS/LS combo. I let the thief land the FS then I dodge the LS leaving them with only enough initiative to to do it 1 more time instantly. At this time I usually counter with a cc to force the shadow return, leaving them waiting for about 2 seconds just to use FS/LS combo again. At the same time I have only taken damage from maybe 2 fs and 1 lkitten (if i didn’t move during the 2nd fs animation). Then its time to put the pressure on which instantly baits the next FS/LS combo 2 seconds after the shadow return or a root slice/slash combo, followed by FS/LS combo 3 seconds later. After that they can only pop cds or run for 4 seconds leaving you with the advantage for the rest of the fight having only taken minor damage (unless your glass with no boons). I hope that helps those having problems with the easiest to counter thief weapon loadout.

Edit: Another hint, use conditions so you force initiative use on shadow returns or cnd.

So does nobody use flanking strike, then wait for a clear opportunity to use larcenous strike? Because the 5(?) second window you have to use it sort of encourages that tactic, rather than just mashing 3 twice.

I ask because I’ve seen it implied a few times that LS is actually easy to dodge / bait because FS telegraphs it, but… Strictly speaking, it doesn’t. You can do a couple things between FS & LS.

Softspoken.2410:

So does nobody use flanking strike, then wait for a clear opportunity to use larcenous strike? Because the 5(?) second window you have to use it sort of encourages that tactic, rather than just mashing 3 twice.

I ask because I’ve seen it implied a few times that LS is actually easy to dodge / bait because FS telegraphs it, but… Strictly speaking, it doesn’t. You can do a couple things between FS & LS.

Ls is telegraphed in 2 ways.
If you just watched the thief use FS, you know he has LS available.
If you watch the thief pull his sword arm back, 1 of 2 things is coming – Crippling strike, or LS (both with kitten cast time)- They’re both swings you’re probably going to want to dodge.

Softspoken.2410:

So does nobody use flanking strike, then wait for a clear opportunity to use larcenous strike? Because the 5(?) second window you have to use it sort of encourages that tactic, rather than just mashing 3 twice.

I ask because I’ve seen it implied a few times that LS is actually easy to dodge / bait because FS telegraphs it, but… Strictly speaking, it doesn’t. You can do a couple things between FS & LS.

Because LS takes the current duration of the boons on the target so the average thief tries to get as much out of those boons he is stripping as he can. When FS lands and you are in range to LS, why not use the unblockable attack? It runs the risk of being dodge but if it lands you’re rewarded with longer duration boons, hurting your target more. It is a gamble either way so when people say its easy to dodge they are referring to the people complaining about FS/LS spamming. If the thief isn’t stripping your boons right away and waiting almost 5 seconds then you’re getting to use those boons for most of its duration and its not that detrimental getting them stripped so there is nothing to complain about.

On top of that LS has a 1/2 second animation. Average reaction time is 1/4 second. You have double the average reaction time to dodge LS once you see the animation start.

sorrow.2364:

Seriously, this is why I hate thief forums, because of people like you.
I tried to start a discussion about the skill, but there is always the rampant kitten who says “everything is fine, you are a baddie, l2p”. Are you not interested into starting a constructive discussion? Fine. Just move away and don’t delight us with your useless posts.

Good, then leave the forums and don’t come back. You are not offering anything. You are just another nerf the thief poster. Move along. No one cares about you getting pwned.

YourOwnFear.2743:

Softspoken.2410:

So does nobody use flanking strike, then wait for a clear opportunity to use larcenous strike? Because the 5(?) second window you have to use it sort of encourages that tactic, rather than just mashing 3 twice.

I ask because I’ve seen it implied a few times that LS is actually easy to dodge / bait because FS telegraphs it, but… Strictly speaking, it doesn’t. You can do a couple things between FS & LS.

Because LS takes the current duration of the boons on the target so the average thief tries to get as much out of those boons he is stripping as he can. When FS lands and you are in range to LS, why not use the unblockable attack? It runs the risk of being dodge but if it lands you’re rewarded with longer duration boons, hurting your target more. It is a gamble either way so when people say its easy to dodge they are referring to the people complaining about FS/LS spamming. If the thief isn’t stripping your boons right away and waiting almost 5 seconds then you’re getting to use those boons for most of its duration and its not that detrimental getting them stripped so there is nothing to complain about.

The point about the boons ticking down is a good one, since generally people use flanking strike to set up larcenous strike after boons become apparent. Of course, there’s nothing to say the opponent wouldn’t put up more boons in that duration, or that the thief wouldn’t only bother with the chain unless the boons would be worthwhile three seconds later.

YourOwnFear.2743:

On top of that LS has a 1/2 second animation. Average reaction time is 1/4 second. You have double the average reaction time to dodge LS once you see the animation start.

evilapprentice.6379:

Ls is telegraphed in 2 ways.
If you just watched the thief use FS, you know he has LS available.
If you watch the thief pull his sword arm back, 1 of 2 things is coming – Crippling strike, or LS (both with kitten cast time)- They’re both swings you’re probably going to want to dodge.

Not really buying the “1/2 activation means someone can always dodge it” though, since that applies to a large percentage of weapon skills. It’s an especially suspect argument with the presence of immobilize on Infiltrator’s Strike.

Don’t pop all your boons at the start of a fight vs a S/D thief. Pvp is meant to be like chess not checkers. Let him use initiative or bait the FS with a couple of short duration boons. You can’t expect to blind luck your way through every fight. You should strategize verse every opponent. Every damaging attack a S/D thief does is telegraphed and requires setup. If you are a boon reliant class then you are being countered and need to deal with it. That was the whole point of the buff. If you are not boon reliant then simply out play the S/D thief like you should have to with any class. If your condition heavy then grats you counter a S/D thief. They either melt or dump initiative into shadow return and cnd to cleans conditions while they run away from being resource starved and countered.

Softspoken.2410:

What the unholy Tartarus is this anecdote.

• IS as an opener is 3 initiative, not 2.

Congrats, you picked up an error.

• Why are you possibly burning C&D and steal if you are already within range (because that’s why you would burn IS as an opener) and your foe is immobilized?

Idk, you should prolly ask why I suggested so in the first place?

• You failed a Flanking Strike attempt, so either you lost the 3 initiative for the first hit, or the 1 for the second. If you miss both halves of that chain, you probably need to push less buttons.

Thank you, for stating the obvious.

• But you reliably pull off a C&D -> Daze. Okay.

okay.

• Using Shadow Return just because it was about to run out, not because you had conditions to cleanse / needed the stun-break.

Yeap.

• Shadow Return (From the sword skill) is only 2 initiative, not 3.

Thank you.

• You didn’t even total up the initiative used in your own scenario. (It’s 30.)
• If the boons you stole are useless, why were you even attempting flanking strike instead of just the 1-chain of the sword?

Well I’m glad you ask. I’m glad someone asked. So how is S/D OP?

Softspoken.2410:

As it is, you’ve stolen 4 boons in that scenario, which determines a lot of the “Was this worth it?” factor. If you stole boons that weren’t really useful to you though, that’s still your strategically poor choice.

Well I’m glad someone pointed this out. Which comes back to OP’s view of FS. spamming 3-3-3-3-3 doesn’t get you anywhere. In fact the thief does not need to rip boons in the beginning, it is pretty self efficient in itself. It is only below 50% that the thief really needs to start strategizing his FS to deliver his final consistent blows of auto attack.

This battle situation was created in response of OP’s thoughts of how a S/D is played. With some realism choices into play and the myth of FS spamming.

You’ve been trolled for not realizing that.

I’ve been playing against s/d thieves in WvW since the buff and they’ve started to become quite common.

Our little roaming group has really had no problem with them at all apart from the troll-y nature of Infiltrator’s Strike.

Spammable stunbreakers is way more powerful than spammable boon removal.

One of the guys we fought that was reasonably skilled would just go back to his portal every time we managed to land a stun or get some burst on him. We killed him two or three times so he wasn’t unstoppable and we barely noticed his boon removal.

The other (less skilled) s/d thieves we either killed first time or made them run away because they almost died. Yes they do spam 3-3-3-3 all the time but that is only as successful as spamming 2-2-2-2 on daggers (i.e., it is not that effective unless you are playing total noobs).

Giving boon steal/hate to other professions is just an indirect way of nerfing boon duration builds – given it was done twice in that patch (once for s/d thieves and once as a warrior trait) it seems this was an intentional nerf to professions relying too much on boons and boon duration in their build.

s/d doesn’t need a nerf in WvW as far as I’m concerned. I play p/d so I don’t have any vested interest in s/d remaining untouched.