Guild Wars 2

Softspoken.2410:

evilapprentice.6379:

Ls is telegraphed in 2 ways.
If you just watched the thief use FS, you know he has LS available.
If you watch the thief pull his sword arm back, 1 of 2 things is coming – Crippling strike, or LS (both with kitten cast time)- They’re both swings you’re probably going to want to dodge.

Not really buying the “1/2 activation means someone can always dodge it” though, since that applies to a large percentage of weapon skills. It’s an especially suspect argument with the presence of immobilize on Infiltrator’s Strike.

The point isn’t “you can always dodge it”. No one dodges infinitely. The point is that the skill isn’t instant cast or a very quick cast (like .25s), and it has a fairly distinctive animation (IE, if a Sword MH thief pulls his arm back, you know for sure its a skill you probably want to dodge). You always know when the skill is coming.

Yes, Inf strike is an option, but at the cost of 3 init – 5 if they have to clean up an SR to gain access to IS again. When you consider that you need to spend 3 init for FS every time you want to LS and at minimum another 3 init for IS (if they don’t have SR up) it’s a reasonable combo, rather than something a thief can spam endlessly.

evilapprentice.6379:

The point isn’t “you can always dodge it”. No one dodges infinitely. The point is that the skill isn’t instant cast or a very quick cast (like .25s), and it has a fairly distinctive animation (IE, if a Sword MH thief pulls his arm back, you know for sure its a skill you probably want to dodge). You always know when the skill is coming.

Yes, Inf strike is an option, but at the cost of 3 init – 5 if they have to clean up an SR to gain access to IS again. When you consider that you need to spend 3 init for FS every time you want to LS and at minimum another 3 init for IS (if they don’t have SR up) it’s a reasonable combo, rather than something a thief can spam endlessly.

Something nobody mentioned is that LS is incredibly similiar animation-wise to the 3rd sword autoattack and, you know, nobody wants to dodge the autoattack.
Also, consider that arm animations are fairly hard to notice, expecially if the Thief is an Asura which has a model 70% smaller than any character, which bring us to another flaw of this game.

sorrow.2364:

Something nobody mentioned is that LS is incredibly similiar animation-wise to the 3rd sword autoattack and, you know, nobody wants to dodge the autoattack.
Also, consider that arm animations are fairly hard to notice, expecially if the Thief is an Asura which has a model 70% smaller than any character, which bring us to another flaw of this game.

Then isn’t that a bad animation design on Anet’s part? Blurred Frenzy, Pistol whip, Warrior 1h sword profession skill are all literally the same. Every sword auto attacks are the same in every profession.

bladie.5084:

This battle situation was created in response of OP’s thoughts of how a S/D is played. With some realism choices into play and the myth of FS spamming.

You’ve been trolled for not realizing that.

The battle situation was so poorly played I couldn’t take it. Even for someone focused on spamming 3, the play decisions didn’t make much sense. Still, you’ve announced that you intentionally were playing it incorrectly, so I’ll stop trying to understand and just move on.

Anyways. The primary way that it’s OP is that it’s still too much of a punishment & reward swing. If a profession uses their most valuable / longest recharge for a set of excellent boons, and the S/D then steals them, not only do they get to deny that long recharge skill, they also get to use the power of it. In some situations this is letting a Thief steal elite skills, for 4 initiative. Denying something like that is powerful enough, but essentially getting to use that strength yourself is just too much for something that can be up so frequently.

It’s situational, obviously. But I think there’s a frequent enough situation where it is simply too strong of a skill for too small of a cost.

On another topic:

sorrow.2364:

Something nobody mentioned is that LS is incredibly similiar animation-wise to the 3rd sword autoattack and, you know, nobody wants to dodge the autoattack.
Also, consider that arm animations are fairly hard to notice, expecially if the Thief is an Asura which has a model 70% smaller than any character, which bring us to another flaw of this game.

evilapprentice.6379:

Ls is telegraphed in 2 ways.
If you just watched the thief use FS, you know he has LS available.
If you watch the thief pull his sword arm back, 1 of 2 things is coming – Crippling strike, or LS (both with kitten cast time)- They’re both swings you’re probably going to want to dodge.

The line about dodging crippling strike got me to raise an eyebrow the first time, but who am I to criticize burning a dodge on an ability that’s up every 2 seconds without an initiative cost?

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

The point isn’t “you can always dodge it”. No one dodges infinitely. The point is that the skill isn’t instant cast or a very quick cast (like .25s), and it has a fairly distinctive animation (IE, if a Sword MH thief pulls his arm back, you know for sure its a skill you probably want to dodge). You always know when the skill is coming.

Yes, Inf strike is an option, but at the cost of 3 init – 5 if they have to clean up an SR to gain access to IS again. When you consider that you need to spend 3 init for FS every time you want to LS and at minimum another 3 init for IS (if they don’t have SR up) it’s a reasonable combo, rather than something a thief can spam endlessly.

Something nobody mentioned is that LS is incredibly similiar animation-wise to the 3rd sword autoattack and, you know, nobody wants to dodge the autoattack.
Also, consider that arm animations are fairly hard to notice, expecially if the Thief is an Asura which has a model 70% smaller than any character, which bring us to another flaw of this game.

What are you saving your dodge for, FS? DD? Most S/D thieves at this point don’t bother with CnD (outside of interrupting a stomp), since without SA, the stealth doesn’t offer much, and its costs 6 init for crap damage.

Do explain why you wouldn’t want to dodge a swing that does nearly the same damage as LS, and carries cripple and weakness with it, especially since another complaint in the thread is that most thieves would use IS to ensure the LS strike. Crippling strike and LS are the only skills worth dodging/attempting to interrupt with CC in the current “Wah, spam 3 more noob” meta.

Oh, and I mentioned specifically that the animations were identical. Its actually right in the post you quoted. Additionally, any animation is hard to see with an Asura – that’s a poor design move by Anet that’s true across every class and ability.

evilapprentice.6379:

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

The point isn’t “you can always dodge it”. No one dodges infinitely. The point is that the skill isn’t instant cast or a very quick cast (like .25s), and it has a fairly distinctive animation (IE, if a Sword MH thief pulls his arm back, you know for sure its a skill you probably want to dodge). You always know when the skill is coming.

Yes, Inf strike is an option, but at the cost of 3 init – 5 if they have to clean up an SR to gain access to IS again. When you consider that you need to spend 3 init for FS every time you want to LS and at minimum another 3 init for IS (if they don’t have SR up) it’s a reasonable combo, rather than something a thief can spam endlessly.

Something nobody mentioned is that LS is incredibly similiar animation-wise to the 3rd sword autoattack and, you know, nobody wants to dodge the autoattack.
Also, consider that arm animations are fairly hard to notice, expecially if the Thief is an Asura which has a model 70% smaller than any character, which bring us to another flaw of this game.

What are you saving your dodge for, FS? DD? Most S/D thieves at this point don’t bother with CnD (outside of interrupting a stomp), since without SA, the stealth doesn’t offer much, and its costs 6 init for crap damage.

Do explain why you wouldn’t want to dodge a swing that does nearly the same damage as LS, and carries cripple and weakness with it, especially since another complaint in the thread is that most thieves would use IS to ensure the LS strike. Crippling strike and LS are the only skills worth dodging/attempting to interrupt with CC in the current “Wah, spam 3 more noob” meta.

Oh, and I mentioned specifically that the animations were identical. Its actually right in the post you quoted. Additionally, any animation is hard to see with an Asura – that’s a poor design move by Anet that’s true across every class and ability.

Your crazy, I use C/D to cure conditions/heal up, switch to dagger and backstab, then black powder and heartseeker into them again.

I love using it when Warriors JUST activate their Signet Of Rage (is that the name of it? The elite skill), steal their boons and take em for myself for like 30secs xD

BEARR.9132:

What do you mean by ‘spammable’? All thieve skills are spammable, it’s the profession itself. I mean, it’s still got a 4 initiative cost.

And perhaps that is a design flaw? I dont know. This allows you to cherry-pick your best skills and use them as long as initiative allows it. All other classes have some very good skills but they are on cooldown. Imagine what would happen if suddenly all classes started to use the initiative mechanic and spam their “best” (whatever may be best in the given situation) weapon abilities.

I dont know. I dont have the answer for it. But perhaps this is something to think about.

Dagger 4 and 5 suck pretty hard and as evilapprentice said CnD use in that build is only to safestomp some professions, clutch daze to prevent stomps/rez or to drop target from yourself when you’re getting focused too hard (SR is better though). Main damage still comes from autoattacks and taking chunks out of people with infiltrators-flanking-auto hit and runs. So I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to dodge auto attacks. FS→LS spam is brutal with a bit of CC assist against boonheavy professions like guards, engys, eles (even when focusfiring against rangers). Getting access to stability/protection/retaliation/loads of might/regen while focusing someone down is insane.

Evasive S/D is quite easy to pick up and has higher skillceiling than backstab specs imo. It has less burst than D/P, but very good sustained damage, debuffing, decent sustain from evasion and escapes and enough pressure to be an effective teamfight spec. It’s possible to solo a bunkerguard with it due to the massive boonremoval.

Softspoken.2410:

So does nobody use flanking strike, then wait for a clear opportunity to use larcenous strike? Because the 5(?) second window you have to use it sort of encourages that tactic, rather than just mashing 3 twice.

I ask because I’ve seen it implied a few times that LS is actually easy to dodge / bait because FS telegraphs it, but… Strictly speaking, it doesn’t. You can do a couple things between FS & LS.

I certainly do that. There is almost no reason at all to chain them.

Then isn’t that a bad animation design on Anet’s part? Blurred Frenzy, Pistol whip, Warrior 1h sword profession skill are all literally the same. Every sword auto attacks are the same in every profession.

Mhmm, but this doesn’t cause confusion because well, at least I’m yet to see a warrior using Blurred Frenzy and mesmer using Pistol Whip. They also have unique particle effects.
Now if say Brutal Shot and Kill Shot had the same animation, that’d be annoying.

Daecollo.9578:

evilapprentice.6379:

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

The point isn’t “you can always dodge it”. No one dodges infinitely. The point is that the skill isn’t instant cast or a very quick cast (like .25s), and it has a fairly distinctive animation (IE, if a Sword MH thief pulls his arm back, you know for sure its a skill you probably want to dodge). You always know when the skill is coming.

Yes, Inf strike is an option, but at the cost of 3 init – 5 if they have to clean up an SR to gain access to IS again. When you consider that you need to spend 3 init for FS every time you want to LS and at minimum another 3 init for IS (if they don’t have SR up) it’s a reasonable combo, rather than something a thief can spam endlessly.

Something nobody mentioned is that LS is incredibly similiar animation-wise to the 3rd sword autoattack and, you know, nobody wants to dodge the autoattack.
Also, consider that arm animations are fairly hard to notice, expecially if the Thief is an Asura which has a model 70% smaller than any character, which bring us to another flaw of this game.

What are you saving your dodge for, FS? DD? Most S/D thieves at this point don’t bother with CnD (outside of interrupting a stomp), since without SA, the stealth doesn’t offer much, and its costs 6 init for crap damage.

Do explain why you wouldn’t want to dodge a swing that does nearly the same damage as LS, and carries cripple and weakness with it, especially since another complaint in the thread is that most thieves would use IS to ensure the LS strike. Crippling strike and LS are the only skills worth dodging/attempting to interrupt with CC in the current “Wah, spam 3 more noob” meta.

Oh, and I mentioned specifically that the animations were identical. Its actually right in the post you quoted. Additionally, any animation is hard to see with an Asura – that’s a poor design move by Anet that’s true across every class and ability.

Your crazy, I use C/D to cure conditions/heal up, switch to dagger and backstab, then black powder and heartseeker into them again.

Daecello, if you’re running S/D – D/P and points in SA, you’re not running the “Wah, spam 3 more noob” spec everyone is crying about, which was my point. Those builds run Double S/D, and in those builds, CnD has a small number of very specific uses, as Psy above pointed out.

Flanking only really shines in SPvP when you use 2 sets of melee weapons but it’s not like it does crazy damage or any real burst. In WvW and PvE there’s nothing amazing about it to set it apart from daggers. It just gives you some survival utility. There’s no OP feeling to it. Heavy condition builds can actually shut them down and/or force them to stop FSing.

I wouldn’t honestly run double melee on thief in sPvP. Nevertheless it’s a really strong set, wouldn’t say OP, but very very strong.

Doggie.3184:

Flanking only really shines in SPvP when you use 2 sets of melee weapons but it’s not like it does crazy damage or any real burst. In WvW and PvE there’s nothing amazing about it to set it apart from daggers. It just gives you some survival utility. There’s no OP feeling to it. Heavy condition builds can actually shut them down and/or force them to stop FSing.

indeed, I noticed this too, a build aimed at spamming fs and stealing buffs will be high in trickery, which likely means low in shadow arts (or in damage-in which case it’s not at all OP’d). the lack of shadow arts gimps our healing and condition removal, so we become especially weak to conditions.

I find this brilliant in game balance terms. conditions were weak in the meta because boons do similar things but cant be easily removed. now theres a few good counters to boons, so conditions are on similar footing. on top of that, they happen to directly counter some of the builds that hurt boons.

sorrow.2364:

I liked the old Flanking Strike, I played that set in the age where D/D backstab and heartseeker spammers were rampant and have a lot of fun with it.

The single boon removal, the dodge and the unforgiving pathing made that skill a real challange giving great results if user properly.
I needed to know where is the right position to cast it to make the skill land, I needed to know when to use it to remove the right boon because I wasn’t able to afford to spam it to remove all the boons.

I understand that some people who are used to leap skills like HS may get frustrated on Flanking Strike and then refused to use it, in fact the path adjusting is the only buff I can understand.

But they completely messed it. Right now, Flanking Strike is the new era of succesful spammers. 2-2-2-2 has become 3-3-3-3. You can easily steal ALL boons from any boon-reliant profession with no efforts at all while dealing sweet constant damage, evading and have the initiative cost split in 2 installments.
I mean, why? It’s like they want the Thief to be the hole where all the spammers, FotM abusers and baddies should be confined to.

If you’re not getting the ego boost you need from playing at a disadvantage, then just unequip your offhand or something.

lol.

Running double melee sets wow…I’d never part with my shortbow.

Dahkeus.8243:

If you’re not getting the ego boost you need from playing at a disadvantage, then just unequip your offhand or something.

lol.

It’s not about ego, it is about challange.
Have you idea of what a competitive game is? Is a game where there isn’t a build when you can press 3-3-3-3 and win. And GW2 aims to become a competitive game.

sorrow.2364:

Dahkeus.8243:

If you’re not getting the ego boost you need from playing at a disadvantage, then just unequip your offhand or something.

lol.

It’s not about ego, it is about challange.
Have you idea of what a competitive game is? Is a game where there isn’t a build when you can press 3-3-3-3 and win. And GW2 aims to become a competitive game.

Whatever you claim your incentive is, you can still get a challenge easily:
– Don’t equip an offhand
– Invest in bad/lackluster traits or don’t use all your traits
– Don’t use sigils/runes or simply remove a piece of armor
– Use badk/lackluster support skills or don’t use any

And if you still aren’t getting a challenge, then you, sir/madaam, are simply too awesome for the internets.

sorrow.2364:

Dahkeus.8243:

If you’re not getting the ego boost you need from playing at a disadvantage, then just unequip your offhand or something.

lol.

It’s not about ego, it is about challange.
Have you idea of what a competitive game is? Is a game where there isn’t a build when you can press 3-3-3-3 and win. And GW2 aims to become a competitive game.

Or perhaps fight some opponents with half a brain. Anyone who dies to 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3 from an S/D thief is either new or awful – anything was going to kill them.

evilapprentice.6379:

sorrow.2364:

Dahkeus.8243:

If you’re not getting the ego boost you need from playing at a disadvantage, then just unequip your offhand or something.

lol.

It’s not about ego, it is about challange.
Have you idea of what a competitive game is? Is a game where there isn’t a build when you can press 3-3-3-3 and win. And GW2 aims to become a competitive game.

Or perhaps fight some opponents with half a brain. Anyone who dies to 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3 from an S/D thief is either new or awful – anything was going to kill them.

That makes entirely too much sense. I have been wrecking people all day 1v1 with my lvl 37 necro, in a bleed spec. Does that mean it is op or does that mean my targets need some practice? I am sure some people in the class forums will say that a lvl 37 necro is op.

Dahkeus.8243:

Whatever you claim your incentive is, you can still get a challenge easily:
– Don’t equip an offhand
– Invest in bad/lackluster traits or don’t use all your traits
– Don’t use sigils/runes or simply remove a piece of armor
– Use badk/lackluster support skills or don’t use any

And if you still aren’t getting a challenge, then you, sir/madaam, are simply too awesome for the internets.

You are suggesting me to play a soccer match with half the team because my players are on steroids. Does it makes sense to you?

evilapprentice.6379:

Or perhaps fight some opponents with half a brain. Anyone who dies to 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3 from an S/D thief is either new or awful – anything was going to kill them.

Who is more bad? A thief that spam only 3-3-3-3-3 or that bunker guardian who is in difficulty against him?
Who deserves to lose the encounter?

sorrow, after reading some of your other posts, I’m sorry for attacking your thief credibility. you obviously do play thief, and are often helpful to others on these forums.

so, addressing your point, I think for me, at my moderate skill level, playing vs random moderately skilled players, I don’t see an issue. I imagine, like all things, it may scale differently with play level, so I won’t try to speak to its effect on high skill play, which may be very different.

one thing I do think is important to consider though is that it will take time to determine whether it is op’d. in every skill level of play, people need time to adjust. thieves need to come up with all the ways to abuse the skill, and other classes need time to get used to countering. Same as things like 100 blades, even if OP’d, there are counters, and as people know how to play against it better, it will change how it plays, and its impact on the meta.

So my suggestion to people complaining about the change is to wait, see how the community and metagame reacts and then in a month or two, we can have this discussion with more than just theory-craft on both sides.

sorrow.2364:

Dahkeus.8243:

Whatever you claim your incentive is, you can still get a challenge easily:
– Don’t equip an offhand
– Invest in bad/lackluster traits or don’t use all your traits
– Don’t use sigils/runes or simply remove a piece of armor
– Use badk/lackluster support skills or don’t use any

And if you still aren’t getting a challenge, then you, sir/madaam, are simply too awesome for the internets.

You are suggesting me to play a soccer match with half the team because my players are on steroids. Does it makes sense to you?

I think you’re missing a few subtleties behind my pointed rhetoric, lol.

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

Or perhaps fight some opponents with half a brain. Anyone who dies to 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3 from an S/D thief is either new or awful – anything was going to kill them.

Who is more bad? A thief that spam only 3-3-3-3-3 or that bunker guardian who is in difficulty against him?
Who deserves to lose the encounter?

That’s a question that’s impossible to answer with the information you’ve given me- we’ve established that the thief is playing poorly (since he’s just spamming 3), but we haven’t established if the bunker guardian knows what he’s doing.

Noob/Inexperienced player vs Noob/Inexperienced player? Who cares who won, both players could stand to gain some experience and a better grip of the mechanics.

Noob Thief vs Bunker guardian – The Guard wins hand down, because 3 spam is not a substitute for knowing how the game works, no matter how hard you try to sell that angle.

Skilled thief vs Skilled bunker guard – Probably the thief, since ANets thought process behind FS-LS was to bring some counter play to the rampant boon stacking/duration maximizing specs that were dominating the meta.

I get why people hate Mesmers and Thieves – their mechanics were designed to be confusing. They’re the class you’re going to have the hardest time with if you don’t know what they’re capable of ahead of time. Mind you, that was a conscious decision by ANet (if you don’t believe me, please see the entirety of the Mesmer class). Being confusing to fight is part of the design, you’re supposed to learn how to counter it, not come running to the boards to cry for nerfs.

Pretending you can thrash people just by spamming 3 was probably true for the first 3 days after the patch, when people were caught of guard. They had minimal experience against S/D, FS finally pathed correctly, and Anet made the smart decision to split the strikes so the thief wasn’t a sitting duck for half the duration of every FS (So even those who knew how S/D worked were in for a surprise). Now that people have had a week (way longer than that, but It didn’t take more than a week) to play against it, it’s just a strong spec with applicable counters like any other.

bobross.5034:

sorrow, after reading some of your other posts, I’m sorry for attacking your thief credibility. you obviously do play thief, and are often helpful to others on these forums.

so, addressing your point, I think for me, at my moderate skill level, playing vs random moderately skilled players, I don’t see an issue. I imagine, like all things, it may scale differently with play level, so I won’t try to speak to its effect on high skill play, which may be very different.

one thing I do think is important to consider though is that it will take time to determine whether it is op’d. in every skill level of play, people need time to adjust. thieves need to come up with all the ways to abuse the skill, and other classes need time to get used to countering. Same as things like 100 blades, even if OP’d, there are counters, and as people know how to play against it better, it will change how it plays, and its impact on the meta.

So my suggestion to people complaining about the change is to wait, see how the community and metagame reacts and then in a month or two, we can have this discussion with more than just theory-craft on both sides.

I made a sort of prediction about how the change will affect the meta and it isn’t that good. I’ve wrote it some posts ago.

I like the thief, don’t get me wrong, and for that reason I don’t want it to be considered the noob-friendly profession, neither I want the build variety of the profession being destroyed (which is a known effect of having an above average weapon set).

Right now in PvP every thief you encounter is running S/D, which is sad other then harmful to the health of the game. This clearly means that there is something wrong with that set and it should be looked at as fast as possible.
Being slow with fixes and waiting the meta does not help. The meta after little balancing patch grow up quickly, what you’re seeing now is what you are going to see till the next balancing patch.

I’ve explained what is wrong in my opinion and how to fix this because, to be honest, it can be denied that there is something wrong.

evilapprentice.6379:

That’s a question that’s impossible to answer with the information you’ve given me- we’ve established that the thief is playing poorly (since he’s just spamming 3), but we haven’t established if the bunker guardian knows what he’s doing.

Noob/Inexperienced player vs Noob/Inexperienced player? Who cares who won, both players could stand to gain some experience and a better grip of the mechanics.

Noob Thief vs Bunker guardian – The Guard wins hand down, because 3 spam is not a substitute for knowing how the game works, no matter how hard you try to sell that angle.

Skilled thief vs Skilled bunker guard – Probably the thief, since ANets thought process behind FS-LS was to bring some counter play to the rampant boon stacking/duration maximizing specs that were dominating the meta.

I get why people hate Mesmers and Thieves – their mechanics were designed to be confusing. They’re the class you’re going to have the hardest time with if you don’t know what they’re capable of ahead of time. Mind you, that was a conscious decision by ANet (if you don’t believe me, please see the entirety of the Mesmer class). Being confusing to fight is part of the design, you’re supposed to learn how to counter it, not come running to the boards to cry for nerfs.

Pretending you can thrash people just by spamming 3 was probably true for the first 3 days after the patch, when people were caught of guard. They had minimal experience against S/D, FS finally pathed correctly, and Anet made the smart decision to split the strikes so the thief wasn’t a sitting duck for half the duration of every FS (So even those who knew how S/D worked were in for a surprise). Now that people have had a week (way longer than that, but It didn’t take more than a week) to play against it, it’s just a strong spec with applicable counters like any other.

Actually, I fail to see any counter to S/D thief. The only counter I see is not running boons. Period.
It isn’t a matter of getting better or I don’t know what, any S/D thief who is just pressing 3 and weapon swap sometimes will melt any boon-bunker, the skill level isn’t that relevant.
You can try that build by yourself in t-sPvP, it is too easy to kill boon-bunkers compared to the efforts you put into doing so.

sorrow.2364:

bobross.5034:

sorrow, after reading some of your other posts, I’m sorry for attacking your thief credibility. you obviously do play thief, and are often helpful to others on these forums.

so, addressing your point, I think for me, at my moderate skill level, playing vs random moderately skilled players, I don’t see an issue. I imagine, like all things, it may scale differently with play level, so I won’t try to speak to its effect on high skill play, which may be very different.

one thing I do think is important to consider though is that it will take time to determine whether it is op’d. in every skill level of play, people need time to adjust. thieves need to come up with all the ways to abuse the skill, and other classes need time to get used to countering. Same as things like 100 blades, even if OP’d, there are counters, and as people know how to play against it better, it will change how it plays, and its impact on the meta.

So my suggestion to people complaining about the change is to wait, see how the community and metagame reacts and then in a month or two, we can have this discussion with more than just theory-craft on both sides.

I made a sort of prediction about how the change will affect the meta and it isn’t that good. I’ve wrote it some posts ago.

I like the thief, don’t get me wrong, and for that reason I don’t want it to be considered the noob-friendly profession, neither I want the build variety of the profession being destroyed (which is a known effect of having an above average weapon set).

Right now in PvP every thief you encounter is running S/D, which is sad other then harmful to the health of the game. This clearly means that there is something wrong with that set and it should be looked at as fast as possible.
Being slow with fixes and waiting the meta does not help. The meta after little balancing patch grow up quickly, what you’re seeing now is what you are going to see till the next balancing patch.

I’ve explained what is wrong in my opinion and how to fix this because, to be honest, it can be denied that there is something wrong.

It does not clearly mean that there’s something wrong with the set, persay. That’s a possibility of course, but it’s not clearly the case, and I disagree with you.

Another possibility is that Boons are too strong and prolific (it’s more of a fact since ANet has acknowledged it), and a set that denies them while remaining viable (but not as strong) outside of just denying boons is a smart choice for anyone trying to win a game.

Another possibility is that most of a thief’s weapon options are garbage/subpar – D/P , SB, and S/D are the only things you’ll see 9 times out of 10 because they’re our only competently designed weapons. Instead of nerfing S/D, perhaps we can bring P/P up from the bottomless pit its currently in. Make it so that P/D isnt a 5-1 trick pony that’s insanely easy to counter because all its damage is stacked into 1 easily cleanable condition. Do something to give me a reason to take S/P over S/D, because even pre-patch I didn’t want to rely entirely on my AA for damage. Do something to D/D to give us a reason to take it over D/P, because currently there is none.

Also, I see plenty of thieves still running D/P. In fact, I rarely see other S/D thieves – they’re almost all D/P. Does that set need to be nerfed too, just because its part of the 2 (Pre S/D patch it was the only) non-sb sets we have that you weren’t at an automatic handicap for taking?

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

That’s a question that’s impossible to answer with the information you’ve given me- we’ve established that the thief is playing poorly (since he’s just spamming 3), but we haven’t established if the bunker guardian knows what he’s doing.

Noob/Inexperienced player vs Noob/Inexperienced player? Who cares who won, both players could stand to gain some experience and a better grip of the mechanics.

Noob Thief vs Bunker guardian – The Guard wins hand down, because 3 spam is not a substitute for knowing how the game works, no matter how hard you try to sell that angle.

Skilled thief vs Skilled bunker guard – Probably the thief, since ANets thought process behind FS-LS was to bring some counter play to the rampant boon stacking/duration maximizing specs that were dominating the meta.

I get why people hate Mesmers and Thieves – their mechanics were designed to be confusing. They’re the class you’re going to have the hardest time with if you don’t know what they’re capable of ahead of time. Mind you, that was a conscious decision by ANet (if you don’t believe me, please see the entirety of the Mesmer class). Being confusing to fight is part of the design, you’re supposed to learn how to counter it, not come running to the boards to cry for nerfs.

Pretending you can thrash people just by spamming 3 was probably true for the first 3 days after the patch, when people were caught of guard. They had minimal experience against S/D, FS finally pathed correctly, and Anet made the smart decision to split the strikes so the thief wasn’t a sitting duck for half the duration of every FS (So even those who knew how S/D worked were in for a surprise). Now that people have had a week (way longer than that, but It didn’t take more than a week) to play against it, it’s just a strong spec with applicable counters like any other.

Actually, I fail to see any counter to S/D thief. The only counter I see is not running boons. Period.
It isn’t a matter of getting better or I don’t know what, any S/D thief who is just pressing 3 and weapon swap sometimes will melt any boon-bunker, the skill level isn’t that relevant.
You can try that build by yourself in t-sPvP, it is too easy to kill boon-bunkers compared to the efforts you put into doing so.

Just because you can’t think of anything doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

It’s called Dodge. You dodge when the thief pulls his arm back, and he does laughable DPS, and can’t steal your boons. You obviously can’t dodge everything, but you can eat every Slash, Slice, Infiltrators strike, Flanking Strike, Dancing Dagger and Cloak and Dagger he throws your way – as long as you don’t get hit with Crippling Strike and LS, You. Win.

You also have the option of any control-denying CC – that’s not quite as universal as dodge, but any bunker has at least some at their disposal. You’ll probably want to save those for when the thief uses Inf Strike to lock you down for the LS.

There you go, I just won you the game.

evilapprentice.6379:

It does not clearly mean that there’s something wrong with the set, persay. That’s a possibility of course, but it’s not clearly the case, and I disagree with you.

Another possibility is that Boons are too strong and prolific (it’s more of a fact since ANet has acknowledged it), and a set that denies them while remaining viable (but not as strong) outside of just denying boons is a smart choice for anyone trying to win a game.

Another possibility is that most of a thief’s weapon options are garbage/subpar – D/P , SB, and S/D are the only things you’ll see 9 times out of 10 because they’re our only competently designed weapons. Instead of nerfing S/D, perhaps we can bring P/P up from the bottomless pit its currently in. Make it so that P/D isnt a 5-1 trick pony that’s insanely easy to counter because all its damage is stacked into 1 easily cleanable condition. Do something to give me a reason to take S/P over S/D, because even pre-patch I didn’t want to rely entirely on my AA for damage. Do something to D/D to give us a reason to take it over D/P, because currently there is none.

Also, I see plenty of thieves still running D/P. In fact, I rarely see other S/D thieves – they’re almost all D/P. Does that set need to be nerfed too, just because its part of the 2 (Pre S/D patch it was the only) non-sb sets we have that you weren’t at an automatic handicap for taking?

Do you usually play WvWvW? Are you NA or EU? Because D/P is a rare sight here.

Regarding boons, if they really were overpowered, then S/D is far move overpowered because it not only removes them from the enemy, but it also applies them to you on the same duration!
So no, it isn’t a matter of boons being to strong. I refuse to believe ANet is that stupid at balancing.

I see it as an attempt to give more counters to boons because they were too widespread. Fact is that they succeded in that they wanted to do, but the counter is too strong and it needs a futher balance.

evilapprentice.6379:

Just because you can’t think of anything doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

It’s called Dodge. You dodge when the thief pulls his arm back, and he does laughable DPS, and can’t steal your boons. You obviously can’t dodge everything, but you can eat every Slash, Slice, Infiltrators strike, Flanking Strike, Dancing Dagger and Cloak and Dagger he throws your way – as long as you don’t get hit with Crippling Strike and LS, You. Win.

You also have the option of any control-denying CC – that’s not quite as universal as dodge, but any bunker has at least some at their disposal. You’ll probably want to save those for when the thief uses Inf Strike to lock you down for the LS.

There you go, I just won you the game.

I KNEW IT!
I knew you would have brought into the discussion DODGE, the mighty counter of everything and the justification of every OPness.

You can dodge the first LS and you can dodge even the second one.
What about the third? And the 4th? Yeah, you may have enough endurance to dodge the 5th also. But what about the 6th?
Be careful! If you fail to dodge any of the LS, you are essentialy buffing your enemy!
No. Dodge isn’t the answer to everything.

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

It does not clearly mean that there’s something wrong with the set, persay. That’s a possibility of course, but it’s not clearly the case, and I disagree with you.

Another possibility is that Boons are too strong and prolific (it’s more of a fact since ANet has acknowledged it), and a set that denies them while remaining viable (but not as strong) outside of just denying boons is a smart choice for anyone trying to win a game.

Another possibility is that most of a thief’s weapon options are garbage/subpar – D/P , SB, and S/D are the only things you’ll see 9 times out of 10 because they’re our only competently designed weapons. Instead of nerfing S/D, perhaps we can bring P/P up from the bottomless pit its currently in. Make it so that P/D isnt a 5-1 trick pony that’s insanely easy to counter because all its damage is stacked into 1 easily cleanable condition. Do something to give me a reason to take S/P over S/D, because even pre-patch I didn’t want to rely entirely on my AA for damage. Do something to D/D to give us a reason to take it over D/P, because currently there is none.

Also, I see plenty of thieves still running D/P. In fact, I rarely see other S/D thieves – they’re almost all D/P. Does that set need to be nerfed too, just because its part of the 2 (Pre S/D patch it was the only) non-sb sets we have that you weren’t at an automatic handicap for taking?

Do you usually play WvWvW? Are you NA or EU? Because D/P is a rare sight here.

Regarding boons, if they really were overpowered, then S/D is far move overpowered because it not only removes them from the enemy, but it also applies them to you on the same duration!
So no, it isn’t a matter of boons being to strong. I refuse to believe ANet is that stupid at balancing.

I see it as an attempt to give more counters to boons because they were too widespread. Fact is that they succeded in that they wanted to do, but the counter is too strong and it needs a futher balance.

I don’t ever WvW – it’s a PvE mode where gear/level imbalances exist, so it doesn’t interest me. I don’t want to win a fight because I’ve got better gear, more levels or a bigger zerg.

Balance is based around TPvP/SPvP for a reason – everyone has access to the exact same gear from the getgo, map size is small and designed to be fair to both sides, and team size is capped at 5 – those constants are what allow balance. If you try to balance around 20 man fights, gear imbalances, level imbalances, or 4000 units of open space in every direction, you’re going to make an awful game.

Note: I’m not making the claim PvP > WvW, just the claim that you need a controlled environment with equality to generate true balance – SPvP is much, much closer to that than WvW.

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

It does not clearly mean that there’s something wrong with the set, persay. That’s a possibility of course, but it’s not clearly the case, and I disagree with you.

Another possibility is that Boons are too strong and prolific (it’s more of a fact since ANet has acknowledged it), and a set that denies them while remaining viable (but not as strong) outside of just denying boons is a smart choice for anyone trying to win a game.

Another possibility is that most of a thief’s weapon options are garbage/subpar – D/P , SB, and S/D are the only things you’ll see 9 times out of 10 because they’re our only competently designed weapons. Instead of nerfing S/D, perhaps we can bring P/P up from the bottomless pit its currently in. Make it so that P/D isnt a 5-1 trick pony that’s insanely easy to counter because all its damage is stacked into 1 easily cleanable condition. Do something to give me a reason to take S/P over S/D, because even pre-patch I didn’t want to rely entirely on my AA for damage. Do something to D/D to give us a reason to take it over D/P, because currently there is none.

Also, I see plenty of thieves still running D/P. In fact, I rarely see other S/D thieves – they’re almost all D/P. Does that set need to be nerfed too, just because its part of the 2 (Pre S/D patch it was the only) non-sb sets we have that you weren’t at an automatic handicap for taking?

Do you usually play WvWvW? Are you NA or EU? Because D/P is a rare sight here.

Regarding boons, if they really were overpowered, then S/D is far move overpowered because it not only removes them from the enemy, but it also applies them to you on the same duration!
So no, it isn’t a matter of boons being to strong. I refuse to believe ANet is that stupid at balancing.

I see it as an attempt to give more counters to boons because they were too widespread. Fact is that they succeded in that they wanted to do, but the counter is too strong and it needs a futher balance.

evilapprentice.6379:

Just because you can’t think of anything doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

It’s called Dodge. You dodge when the thief pulls his arm back, and he does laughable DPS, and can’t steal your boons. You obviously can’t dodge everything, but you can eat every Slash, Slice, Infiltrators strike, Flanking Strike, Dancing Dagger and Cloak and Dagger he throws your way – as long as you don’t get hit with Crippling Strike and LS, You. Win.

You also have the option of any control-denying CC – that’s not quite as universal as dodge, but any bunker has at least some at their disposal. You’ll probably want to save those for when the thief uses Inf Strike to lock you down for the LS.

There you go, I just won you the game.

I KNEW IT!
I knew you would have brought into the discussion DODGE, the mighty counter of everything and the justification of every OPness.

You can dodge the first LS and you can dodge even the second one.
What about the third? And the 4th? Yeah, you may have enough endurance to dodge the 5th also. But what about the 6th?
Be careful! If you fail to dodge any of the LS, you are essentialy buffing your enemy!
No. Dodge isn’t the answer to everything.

OF COURSE YOU KNEW IT, BECAUSE ITS THE ANSWER YOUR SO UNWILLING TO ACCEPT. I also mentioned control denying CC (KD/KB/Launch/Fear/Stun/Daze etc), which as a bunker you should have a fair amount of.

It’s not as if I’m asking you to watch for several different animations, or that there’s a huge list of moves you have to dodge – you literally have to watch for 1 animation to dodge, and that’s it. The skill’s involved are only available at the end of an AA chain, or for 4 init. That is not a giant list of things to watch out for. If you had to worry about all the skills you were eating while you saved your dodge’s for that 1 thing, it would be a different story – lucky for you, S/D does kitten damage outside CS and LS.
If the thief gets 6 LS’s off on you, you’ve done something wrong – the only dangerous S/D thief is a Glass S/D thief, and if you’re giving him the time to FS/LS 6 times, I don’t know what to tell you.

I’m not considering FS for WvWvW, of course. If you’re saying that you see more D/P thief then S/D, I wonder it you’re talking about WvWvW, since they are quite popular there, while in PvP I barely see one per day.

No. Dodge isn’t a counter.
Justyfing something with dodge is a very poor argument.

Dodge is available as a counter to everything, even an one-hit-kill skill. Does it mean that if there were an one-hit-kill skill it would be balanced? No.
Does it mean that if there were a “Steal all boons” on initiative it would be balanced because it can be dodged? No.

Also, dodges are limited. AA chain or FS aren’t.

If I give the time to a glass S/D thief to land on me LS 6 times, probably I’m a boon bunker with not that much damage (Oh! Look the coincidence!) or I probably ran out of endurance on the first 2 LS.

Leadfoot.9071:

style.6173:

It is easy to counter

Someone care to share how you can counter it? I more or less agree with OP and MIrra that it seems a bit too much… it can be spammed almost constantly with init regen traits and it does a ton of damage.

It requires 6 initiative out of 12 total. How can you “spam” an attack that can only get two consecutive uses before completely tapping out your resources as a class?

Stop being a horrible player and learn to to dodge the attack. The second you have a boon on you, you KNOW the thief is going to try and take it from you.

EDIT: The total Initiative costs is actually 4, allowing you to use it 3 times. I still fail to see the crying.

Thieves get a sword nerf.

Awnser: NERF IT MORE!

Just delete the class.

sorrow.2364:

I’m not considering FS for WvWvW, of course. If you’re saying that you see more D/P thief then S/D, I wonder it you’re talking about WvWvW, since they are quite popular there, while in PvP I barely see one per day.

No. Dodge isn’t a counter.
Justyfing something with dodge is a very poor argument.

Dodge is available as a counter to everything, even an one-hit-kill skill. Does it mean that if there were an one-hit-kill skill it would be balanced? No.
Does it mean that if there were a “Steal all boons” on initiative it would be balanced because it can be dodged? No.

Also, dodges are limited. AA chain or FS aren’t.

If I give the time to a glass S/D thief to land on me LS 6 times, probably I’m a boon bunker with not that much damage (Oh! Look the coincidence!) or I probably ran out of endurance on the first 2 LS.

I agree “Just dodge it” is generally a poor argument – You usually have incentive to dodge a whole bunch of things, and pointing out “you can dodge X!” does nothing in particular for how you’re supposed to deal with the rest of the abilities. This case however is different – you can literally ignore every strike that isn’t LS or CS, for a variety of reasons – they do awful damage, leave the thief open for counterattack, cost way too much initiative, etc…

If you only have a single animation you have to watch out, which has kitten cast time (in this case just 1 skill, we’re talking specifically about LS since your argument is that 3 spamming is too strong), you can reasonably say “just avoid that skill”.

Please explain how FS isn’t limited. Also, while AA is “unlimited”, it does require striking the first 2 swings and 1.5s. You only really have to dodge LS, though you probably want to dodge CS because it does considerable damage and comes with weakness/cripple.

If you’re running a “bunker” without access to enhanced endurance regeneration and some CC, you’re not really running a bunker now are you. Your low power bunker should still do considerable damage to a GC thief.

Any thief just spamming 3 should be a joke to you – the fact that it isn’t makes me think you don’t really know how to play your bunker class.

evilapprentice.6379:

I agree “Just dodge it” is generally a poor argument – You usually have incentive to dodge a whole bunch of things, and pointing out “you can dodge X!” does nothing in particular for how you’re supposed to deal with the rest of the abilities. This case however is different – you can literally ignore every strike that isn’t LS or CS, for a variety of reasons – they do awful damage, leave the thief open for counterattack, cost way too much initiative, etc…

If you only have a single animation you have to watch out, which has kitten cast time (in this case just 1 skill, we’re talking specifically about LS since your argument is that 3 spamming is too strong), you can reasonably say “just avoid that skill”.

Please explain how FS isn’t limited. Also, while AA is “unlimited”, it does require striking the first 2 swings and 1.5s. You only really have to dodge LS, though you probably want to dodge CS because it does considerable damage and comes with weakness/cripple.

If you’re running a “bunker” without access to enhanced endurance regeneration and some CC, you’re not really running a bunker now are you. Your low power bunker should still do considerable damage to a GC thief.

Any thief just spamming 3 should be a joke to you – the fact that it isn’t makes me think you don’t really know how to play your bunker class.

Ignoring the fact that I don’t know how you can define “awful damage” the average 1.5k thief deals per sword hit, also if you want to dodge only LS and you are a really good dodger, there is always a LS you CAN’T DODGE for the simple reason that endurance is lower then initiative.

Using all your dodges on a spammable skill like Flanking Strike is a waste. You know that after you dodged the first, the second will come and so on. I prefer to use my dodge to avoid an Updraft, Backbreaker, Bull’s Rush, Corrupt Boons and Moa Morph. Those skills are powerful, but once you dodged them it is GUARANTEED that the caster isn’t going to use that skill again until the recharge time has past. That is a well spent dodge and a balanced situation.

How can you bring the “you can dodge” argument on a skill that can be used on average every 4 seconds?

Here’s how you counter a S/D thief spamming 3: You deal more dps than he does, you CC him between evades and/or you outheal the damage. That’s it. Boons are great, but they aren’t the end-all be-all.

Also, take a look at the tournament builds thiefs are using. You see some S/D builds, but it’s not the dominant weapon choice that you describe since D/P still brings more burst and blind fields.

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

I agree “Just dodge it” is generally a poor argument – You usually have incentive to dodge a whole bunch of things, and pointing out “you can dodge X!” does nothing in particular for how you’re supposed to deal with the rest of the abilities. This case however is different – you can literally ignore every strike that isn’t LS or CS, for a variety of reasons – they do awful damage, leave the thief open for counterattack, cost way too much initiative, etc…

If you only have a single animation you have to watch out, which has kitten cast time (in this case just 1 skill, we’re talking specifically about LS since your argument is that 3 spamming is too strong), you can reasonably say “just avoid that skill”.

Please explain how FS isn’t limited. Also, while AA is “unlimited”, it does require striking the first 2 swings and 1.5s. You only really have to dodge LS, though you probably want to dodge CS because it does considerable damage and comes with weakness/cripple.

If you’re running a “bunker” without access to enhanced endurance regeneration and some CC, you’re not really running a bunker now are you. Your low power bunker should still do considerable damage to a GC thief.

Any thief just spamming 3 should be a joke to you – the fact that it isn’t makes me think you don’t really know how to play your bunker class.

Ignoring the fact that I don’t know how you can define “awful damage” the average 1.5k thief deals per sword hit, also if you want to dodge only LS and you are a really good dodger, there is always a LS you CAN’T DODGE for the simple reason that endurance is lower then initiative.

Using all your dodges on a spammable skill like Flanking Strike is a waste. You know that after you dodged the first, the second will come and so on. I prefer to use my dodge to avoid an Updraft, Backbreaker, Bull’s Rush, Corrupt Boons and Moa Morph. Those skills are powerful, but once you dodged them it is GUARANTEED that the caster isn’t going to use that skill again until the recharge time has past. That is a well spent dodge and a balanced situation.

How can you bring the “you can dodge” argument on a skill that can be used on average every 4 seconds?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAsYlYmKOHcS6E/5Ex2jdKUeqVgmdP4qVrKA-ToAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFNIY+B

Recall how I’ve said, time and time again, that CS and LS are the only skills that hit hard? I hope so, because it’s about to come up.

Please compare the numbers you made up to the cold hard facts I’ve provided in the above link. “1.5k average” (especially against a bunker) is a pipe dream, and silly to just make up considering anyone has access to gw2skills. Also note most S/D thieves don’t run 10 points in DA and Assassins sig (preferring 10 trickery and Inf sig), so 90% of the S/D thieves are hitting significantly weaker (280 power weaker, to be clear) than the above link (which still isn’t striking for “1.5k average”). I suppose a 1.5k Slash crit on a target under 50% and at around 2000-2200 armor is pretty doable, but not “Average”.

You shouldn’t just be dodging – you should be trying to fight them in between the dodges. Bunkers win fights due to attrition… is this your first day? You’ve grown too accustomed to spamming boons because pre-patch, they had absolutely no downside.

Also, If you’re fighting multiple people, tough kittening luck. By your argument, any strong but avoidable skill needs a nerf because other people might be fighting around you. Bola->HB’s /Eviscerate is broken, Swap->BF is broken, etc etc etc… Prioritize your dodges the way you want, but no crying one skill isn’t worth dodging and yet still too powerful.

I’m sorry you don’t like the initiative system. I’m sorry you don’t like that there are no longer 0 downsides to maximizing boons/duration. Now that there are opportunity costs associated with spamming boons the game is better for it – I’d suggest getting used to it, because ANet agrees.

Does anyone really die just to 333333 spam? Only situation I can understand spamming it if for example you and engy just 2v1 stunlocked someone who popped a million boons. Autoattack does much better damage and 2nd hit of 3 is much more useful if it’s unpredictable and mixed between autos and dodge for swiftness imo.

In that bunker vs thief situation, I think on equal skill level S/D will kill the guard. It’ll take quite a bit of time, but that set can easily push out enough pressure to make the guard pop his cooldowns. If the guard is more experienced and keeps good CD management he won’t lose though. S/D thief vs DPS guard is more dangerous fight for the thief imo.

@sorrow: From my experience it’s pretty much 50/50 D/P or S/D, though I agree S/D is getting fairly popular in EU.
@Dahkeus: Who runs S/P in tournas?

evilapprentice.6379”

Pretending you can thrash people just by spamming 3 was probably true for the first 3 days after the patch, when people were caught of guard. They had minimal experience against S/D, FS finally pathed correctly, and Anet made the smart decision to split the strikes so the thief wasn’t a sitting duck for half the duration of every FS (So even those who knew how S/D worked were in for a surprise). Now that people have had a week (way longer than that, but It didn’t take more than a week) to play against it, it’s just a strong spec with applicable counters like any other.

Well said! I agree completely.

@evilapprentice: I don’t like double melee playstyle at all. Can’t live without my Z-axis, poison, AoE spam and mobility. Sbow is too valuable imo.
This is what I run, might play around with a few traits, but so far I feel extremely comfortable on it.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsYVlYmSO3eS6E/5Ex2jeuTeqpgmysTBXtKA-TsAg0CnI4SxljLDXSuscNKYZx0CA

Wolfield.9812:

Dont spam the skill.

Glad i could help you, please enjoy the rest of your day.

You just made my day!! lmao

What the, do ppl seriously think dodging is the only way to counter fs?

Ever heard of cc?

Stun, daze, chill, immobilize, knockdown, knockback… Hell, even cripple causes u to miss the lac strike as u can’t make enough ground

Yes it’s a strong build, but it has it’s counters, that’s for sure

Psybunny.8906:

@Dahkeus: Who runs S/P in tournas?

Doh, that was a typo. I meant D/P.

And for sources of people running D/P, you can pull up the builds used in recent tournies posted in the PvP section of GuildWars2Guru.com’s forums.

Dahkeus.8243:

Psybunny.8906:

@Dahkeus: Who runs S/P in tournas?

Doh, that was a typo. I meant D/P.

And for sources of people running D/P, you can pull up the builds used in recent tournies posted in the PvP section of GuildWars2Guru.com’s forums.

That explains a lot.
Yup D/P was extremely popular and still is, the “classical” was my previous spec on thief aswell.

evilapprentice.6379:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAsYlYmKOHcS6E/5Ex2jdKUeqVgmdP4qVrKA-ToAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFNIY+B

Recall how I’ve said, time and time again, that CS and LS are the only skills that hit hard? I hope so, because it’s about to come up.

Please compare the numbers you made up to the cold hard facts I’ve provided in the above link. “1.5k average” (especially against a bunker) is a pipe dream, and silly to just make up considering anyone has access to gw2skills. Also note most S/D thieves don’t run 10 points in DA and Assassins sig (preferring 10 trickery and Inf sig), so 90% of the S/D thieves are hitting significantly weaker (280 power weaker, to be clear) than the above link (which still isn’t striking for “1.5k average”). I suppose a 1.5k Slash crit on a target under 50% and at around 2000-2200 armor is pretty doable, but not “Average”.

You shouldn’t just be dodging – you should be trying to fight them in between the dodges. Bunkers win fights due to attrition… is this your first day? You’ve grown too accustomed to spamming boons because pre-patch, they had absolutely no downside.

Also, If you’re fighting multiple people, tough kittening luck. By your argument, any strong but avoidable skill needs a nerf because other people might be fighting around you. Bola->HB’s /Eviscerate is broken, Swap->BF is broken, etc etc etc… Prioritize your dodges the way you want, but no crying one skill isn’t worth dodging and yet still too powerful.

I’m sorry you don’t like the initiative system. I’m sorry you don’t like that there are no longer 0 downsides to maximizing boons/duration. Now that there are opportunity costs associated with spamming boons the game is better for it – I’d suggest getting used to it, because ANet agrees.

In case you missed the post, I don’t play any boon-based Bunker.
By my argument, it doesn’t mean that any strong but avoidable skill needs a nerf, it only means that any strong and spammable skill needs a nerf.

There were downside into spamming boons also before the FS path. Those downsides were called Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption.

Now, tell me how it is worth to even think to use those skills over FS spamming Thief as a counter to boons.

I’ll help you. Let’s compare just corrupt boon (more similiar to FS due to the fact they are both single target):
1. LS has higher boon removed/time ratio.
2. LS is more reliable and forgiving. Once you miss the first or it gets dodged, it can be used again because the boon removals are split into multiple, lower costing, casts.
3. LS deals more damage compared to Corrupt Boon.
4. LS is a weapon skill, that means you have one more utility slot.
5. LS can be also used for devensive purposes due to evade.

You can compare this also to Spinal Shivers and you can find that most the points applies to that skill too, with even more downsides.

Now that we compared LS to another boon-hate skill, which is from a profession that is supposed to be the bane of any boons, how can you say that LS isn’t overperforming?

Balancing isn’t only about having a counter, it is also about how it performs compared to similiar skills.

A ) All thief weapon skills are spammable to some extent (depending on build/traits). By your logic, we should have no strong weapon skills?

B ) Corrupt boon’s cooldown is offset by the following benefits that you don’t get from LS:
1 ) There is no mess with RNG to strip the boon you want. Corrupt boon strips all. This is murder against anyone using anything like Runes of Lyssa (which a lot of S/D thieves use, ironically).
2 ) LS requires a melee hit to land. Corrupt boon has a 1,200 range, is unblockable, and is insta-cast.

The reason that the skill is balanced is because there is a trade-off: Instead of getting a ranged, unblockable full boon strip, they have to get into melee range and are at the mercy of RNG to strip what they need. LS is good, but after spending all your initiative, your target may still have protection and/or might up.

sorrow.2364:

I’ll help you. Let’s compare just corrupt boon (more similiar to FS due to the fact they are both single target):
1. LS has higher boon removed/time ratio.
2. LS is more reliable and forgiving. Once you miss the first or it gets dodged, it can be used again because the boon removals are split into multiple, lower costing, casts.
3. LS deals more damage compared to Corrupt Boon.
4. LS is a weapon skill, that means you have one more utility slot.
5. LS can be also used for devensive purposes due to evade.

1. Corrupt Boon has better “Spike” removal (as it removes all boons on 1 use, rather than 2 every 1s if spammed).
2. Melee range is required for LS, and the skill is telegraphed with a 1/2s casting time, where as corrupt boon is range 1200 and instant cast.
3. Corrupt boon converts boons into conditions, meaning it can potentially cause any combination of – damage, reduced healing, increase CD time,CC (both soft and hard styles).
4. You got me there. It’s part of ANets design to introduce a real cost to mindless spamming of boons. Remember how old FS used to remove 1 boon? Remember how worthless it was, because a bunker losing 1 boon for 4 init didn’t slow them down in the slightest? It was so bad bunkers would eat the first swing, even though it removed a boon, so they could be sure to either dodge the second swing (due to its high damage) or punish you while you were locked in the .5s second swing animation. (That’s all if the pathing wasn’t awful that particular time you used FS)
5. FS evades, and does not steal boons as well as doing awful damage. LS Screams “I’M ABOUT TO HIT YOU WITH LS. IF YOU’D LIKE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, YOU’VE GOT HALF A SECOND” – there’s a rather large difference.

You keep arguing, I’ll keep telling you – Mindless spamming of boons (this awkward phrase brought to you by insane language filter) is clearly detrimental to the game – ANet saw that, and introduced an additional cost to mindless spamming of boons, just in case a necro with corrupt boon wasn’t around. Now, people have to actually think about when/where/why to use their boons, rather than just starting a fight and thinking to themselves “Whelp, time to throw up everything I have because I can keep them up for nearly the entire fight and there’s no necro around to punish me for it”.

Its a good thing.

How is it you thought that one class, primarily using one specific utility would be enough to properly counter boon spamming? Despite the fact that multiple flavors of bunker make heavy use of boons, there are (or maybe were?) a number of other specs that took advantage of spamming/stacking boons as high/long/fast as possible because they realized it had almost no downside. There needed to be a consistent counter, and now there is.

At this point, I’d say we just ignore each other in this thread from this point out – you’ve yet to give what I feel is a solid argument for your side, and I’ve clearly yet to give you what you feel is a solid argument for my side. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Infiltrator’s Strike Nerfed, Next up Flanking Strike!

Just delete the thief class.

shimmerless.4560:

I don’t think Larcenous hurts Eles/Guards the most, it’s classes who don’t get many boons and who cherish the few they do get. Poor War has a whopping three boons on his only real Elite.

I’m not a fan of anything being “Unblockable” either since this messes with expectations for how things should work; players shouldn’t have to remember, “Oh, my Aegis works against everything except X Y and Z”. On a similar note I’d give up the Unblockable on Arcane Thievery in exchange for it not being the most temperamental skill in the game.

Anything that targets boons needs to be unblockable or else Aegis (a boon) completely nullifies it.

Daecollo.9578:

Infiltrator’s Strike Nerfed, Next up Flanking Strike!

Just delete the thief class.

That nerf was more than called for, although they could maybe have extended the range a bit as some sort of compromise.

In any case, the changes to infiltrator’s strike have convinced me that FS-LS is perfectly fine as is and does not need any adjustment whatsoever.

sorrow.2364:

…Looks like that, for you, “balance” is some sort of punishment …

Running out of real arguments?