Guild Wars 2

Just wondering, what your opinions on this are. Until very recently, I would have considered mesmer and warrior to be worse, but now…
Mesmers are undoubtly back in the meta. The class might not be completely fine, but I see a lot of people asking for nerfs, a lot of people saying you can carry your team on a mesmer…so the class is decent at least.
Warriors are still in a bad spot, but with some of the new builds that are flying around, they can be pretty brutal. Some warriors are claiming they wreck basically everything and I have seen them winning teamfights on their own. Again: far from being the best class, but maybe still better than we are?

So yeah. I belong to the people who claim to win duels on a thief. Im also not considering us squishy or easily down in a team fight.
I can not think of anything we are particulary bad at, and I still think we are a well balanced profession overall.

But the more I play and the more I read through the forums, the harder I find it to think of a profession that is actually weaker than we are.
I mean, even if thief is not completely unviable, can you say we are better than ‘x’? I dont think I can anymore.

That is especially sad considering that thief is, by its concept, a class that should be rather strong in pvp if played right.
Call my view warped if you want, but pvp is literally what the thief class should be about. If there is any class that is, even a little, stronger than any other choice on top tier, it should be us…

Warrior is very clearly weaker – at least in competent MMR ranges.

A thief that doesn’t know how to rotate is a really sad sight though. There’s nothing worse to have on your team than a bad thief.

I am still not convinced. Yes, a thief can make up for their combat weakness with good rotation and mobility. But having a class just for the ability to decap on your team? We all know that is not going to happen. So yes. Warrior might be even worse a choice, i dont play warri so im in no postition to judge.
But mathmatically speaking lim x->inf (exp (-x)) =0.
Meaning: it does not really matter if we are worse or better than warrior, if the both of us are in a spot where we are basically unplayable on a competitive level.
Even if that might opposes my original question.

I do not think im a bad player. I can see where other thieves make mistakes and as you say: its pretty sad to watch them.
I still play thief in unranked and I have fun slaughtering people on a much lower skill level, but for ranked it has simply become impossible. The only way I will win a competitive match with my thief is, if my team is superior enough to carry me.
The best I can accomplish is not holding them back. But I can not really help winning the game.
That is pretty much the same a warrior can hope for, so i’d argue if they are effectively in a worse spot.

It’s hard to tell who’s worse off as both have got different playstyles – in a 1 vs 1, equal skill, the warrior will likely win.
But: We have been uncompetitive since June – so this isn’t news.
My one buddy comes every other month to tell me he found a build that works, then leaves for a few weeks, comes back, tells me thief is crap, thinks he found another build that might work, leaves again… He found a working build yesterday – he’ll be gone in a week.
My other buddies have left.

So are people just now realizing this? I posted about this when season 2 started but yeah, Thief is easily the worst PvP class atm, and this is coming from a long time thief main. A thief loses to every class 1v1(againts equally skilled players) unless you run a condi-sustain build. There are many issues that make the Thief class the weakest of the 9 classes. You can read some of my previous posts as I may have elaborated on why it’s the worst class. But to give it to you short, the amount of passives, get out of jail free procs, Protection boon being thrown around like candy and the Power Creep that is especially glaring in the Rev, Engi and Mesmer classes make the Thief class garbage tier. The lack of any real sustain also makes the class garbage tier. It’s the only class that can’t reliably fight on point.

war is worst. Thief is second worst and very hard to play, Most players chose weak builds so they performance is weak. Mes is best class to carry with moa in capable hand. Look at supercutie (hans stream). he plays mes and has 75% WINRATIO just by using portals and farming far.

War, thief and nuke mesmer are weak becouse they are burst classes with low chance of burst success due to random dodges, ele peram team protection and dwarf protection scaling.

Urejt.5648:

Mes is best class to carry with moa in capable hand. Look at supercutie (hans stream). he plays mes and has 75% WINRATIO just by using portals and farming far.

I think I actually played a game with him, me as a thief, a few days ago. Don’t know if he was streaming or not, though.

I’ve recently had some success in ranked running double Pistols(and SB) with very glassy gear, and I can happily say I win most 1v1’s. While pistols may not be optimal damage-wise, they do give you an edge. Not needing to be in melee range. You can just stay out of enemy melee range and Unload on them for burst, and #2 for immobing them. It’s really a very chicken kind of playstyle but it does work, atleast for me.

Frankly, it doesn’t work against other builds that have high mobility and burst as well because of the glassiness. The biggest problems I have are with other thieves. Close 2nd are meditrapper DH’s and engis(for a different reason though). I used to run Assassin’s, but on Marauder’s atm, got tired of getting one-shotted. It’s a choice, though, not a weakness really.

Here’s a link to what I’m running: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqaVn8lCdmiFmCGOB8PhFqiaLHHsdsrnCgDYO77+yH-TpBBABTcEA64QAg1+DyXGAgHAQAnAAA

i’ve done legend in under 90 matches playing only thief so no thief is pretty good

If you follow forum posts, you’ll always think that thief is either wildly OP (people who are new to the game and don’t understand the stealth/burst) or wildly UP (people that try to play a thief like other professions and don’t understand how to engage/disengage wisely).

Thief has been stronger in the past, but it’s still not bad now. I’d definitely put it above warrior.

Thief is easily best carry in soloq if you have any idea how to rotate.

edit: I’d also rate warrior, dh and druid lower than thief in average games too.

Dh suck in general, but they are a great damage addition in teamfights. The can also hold the point they are on.
Druid is top tier. You deal nice damage, have some cc, aoe cleanse, aoe buff, aoe healing, are a good bunker, can ress your teammates….basically an ele with less sustain and more support+damage. I play ranger in ranked.
A thief can only rotate properly, if they allow it. As a thief player, I know exactly, where I have to be in order to cripple the thieves ability to decap. As long as the teams are balanced, it gets hard for the thief to do anything, if the enemy team knows how to counter them. And as stated before: most pug teams dont know, how to play with a thief.
And again: the power gap between warriors and thieves is very small. I see significantly more warriors atm. There is basically one in three teams. Maybe a single thief in 5 or 6 teams.
And thief is no carry. As I said: I refuse to believe that the profession is underpowered and unviable. But it is not able to carry anything on a remotely high skill level.

Petoox.6570:

Thief is easily best carry in soloq if you have any idea how to rotate.

edit: I’d also rate warrior, dh and druid lower than thief in average games too.

No

Thief is bad carry when you start getting up in the divisions. Players tend to know how to play and can shut a thief down with ease

Azukas.1426:

Petoox.6570:

Thief is easily best carry in soloq if you have any idea how to rotate.

edit: I’d also rate warrior, dh and druid lower than thief in average games too.

No

Thief is bad carry when you start getting up in the divisions. Players tend to know how to play and can shut a thief down with ease

Somehow I soloq carried to legend with thief. Idk bad class obviously.

You do realize that matchmaking is a gamble? Getting to legend on soloQ is 90% dependant on luck, if you are at least a decent player.
Can you sincerely say that you carried? Did your teams at any point loose a fair fight and only won beacuase of your rotating capabilities.
You might be a good player, but if you ‘carried’ to legendary on thief, I will imply your enemies were below average. And therefore also your teammates if they needed you.
If you got any longer winning streaks past ruby, it is likely you got carried by MM. If you had quite a couple of losses built-in, your statistic might be accurate.

Asrat.2645:

You do realize that matchmaking is a gamble? Getting to legend on soloQ is 90% dependant on luck, if you are at least a decent player.
Can you sincerely say that you carried? Did your teams at any point loose a fair fight and only won beacuase of your rotating capabilities.
You might be a good player, but if you ‘carried’ to legendary on thief, I will imply your enemies were below average. And therefore also your teammates if they needed you.
If you got any longer winning streaks past ruby, it is likely you got carried by MM. If you had quite a couple of losses built-in, your statistic might be accurate.

Ok explain me how people like Java have 4 legend accounts? Sure he isn’t playing thief but my point still stands, you can carry easily.

But to answer to your comment, I had few loss streaks, lots of winstreaks with losses between them so I usually didn’t get more than 1 or 2 wins off of my winstreak pips.

Petoox.6570:

Azukas.1426:

Petoox.6570:

Thief is easily best carry in soloq if you have any idea how to rotate.

edit: I’d also rate warrior, dh and druid lower than thief in average games too.

No

Thief is bad carry when you start getting up in the divisions. Players tend to know how to play and can shut a thief down with ease

Somehow I soloq carried to legend with thief. Idk bad class obviously.

The way MM works is MM carries you to where you are supposed to be. Sure there are games where you’ll need to perform outstanding to pull off the win, but the majority have you paired against players well below your team’s MMR.

Petoox.6570:

Thief is easily best carry in soloq if you have any idea how to rotate.

edit: I’d also rate warrior, dh and druid lower than thief in average games too.

Agreed with this.

Honestly, I think a lot of people here are just looking for validation towards their difficulties towards a class with a very different set of strengths and weaknesses.

Petoox.6570:

Thief is easily best carry in soloq if you have any idea how to rotate.

edit: I’d also rate warrior, dh and druid lower than thief in average games too.

Agreed with this. Tanky builds are great for organized groups where you can rely on teammates helping when you get outnumered, but if you end up in a group that’s spread and doesn’t rotate as well, they don’t work nearly as much. A thief can easily jump from fight to fight to contribute just enough to turn the tide, then move to the next fight before the enemy can. If your teammates get tunnel vision, then you can still bail them out with a quick spike to an enemy.

Honestly, I think a lot of people here are just looking for validation towards their difficulties towards a class with a very different set of strengths and weaknesses.

Dahkeus.8243:

Petoox.6570:

Thief is easily best carry in soloq if you have any idea how to rotate.

edit: I’d also rate warrior, dh and druid lower than thief in average games too.

Agreed with this.

Honestly, I think a lot of people here are just looking for validation towards their difficulties towards a class with a very different set of strengths and weaknesses.

You both are lol. Thief is not a solo carry. Maybe you both should let everyone in pvp know the secret if you feel otherwise. Can’t wait to see 2 thieves on a team since it is such a strong carry.

style.6173:

Dahkeus.8243:

Petoox.6570:

Thief is easily best carry in soloq if you have any idea how to rotate.

edit: I’d also rate warrior, dh and druid lower than thief in average games too.

Agreed with this.

Honestly, I think a lot of people here are just looking for validation towards their difficulties towards a class with a very different set of strengths and weaknesses.

You both are lol. Thief is not a solo carry. Maybe you both should let everyone in pvp know the secret if you feel otherwise. Can’t wait to see 2 thieves on a team since it is such a strong carry.

Just because it can carry doesn’t mean you want 2 on a team. I mean, that’s like saying that just because sugar tastes great, you’re going to try to bake cookies with extra sugar instead of flour.

If you want to see high level thief solo queues, it’s not hard to find. Sindrenerr is a great example of this (twitch.tv/sindrenerr) since he’s Legendary X3 and solo queues as thief, but there’s plenty of other good streaming thieves as well.

Or you could just stick your head in the ground and keep telling yourself that the thief class is really your excuse…

Thief is obviously not a carry. That is not even a matter of strenght. It is a fact right now, that teams that cant work with a thief, will go down! If you want to shine as a thief, your team needs to play into that.
That is the exact opposite, of what a carry does.

You are also missing the greater point. I never said, I didnt like the thief class or considered it weak.
The point is, that there is hardly anything worse. Yes, the warrior, maybe.
But lets go over this, what would you want on a perfect pvp team?
Revenant. High damage, high mobility, high sustain, some support.
Definetly yes
Necro. Average sustain, extreme damage, some support, good cc
Yep, we all like necros
Ele. Unkillable, fairly mobile, low damage, great support
Great choice
Scrapper. Also immortal, nice damage, nice cc, some support, also mobile
We certainly want that
Memser. Ok damage, unfair cc, good sustain, some helpful stuff, fast
can take that, good counter for the op ones
Ranger. Average damage, good sustain, great team heal and condi cleanse, free resses, mobile
-not first choice but a valuable addition
Guardian. Good sustain, good damage, good cc, some healing
-You dont really want a guard, but they wont drag you down either
Warrior. very short term high damage and burst. Dead if they miss
-we dont take kindly to warriors around here
Thief. Extremely fast, can always disengage, decap,+1, strong damage, but only against soft targets and only if you are not alone. No group support but ‘being there in time’ Good sustain but leaving the point, good cc, but not enough to lock

This is where you see the first flaw: thieves have a ‘good’ everywhere, but never a ‘great’ and its always connected to a ‘good, but’

So on every role you rely on your teams performance. unbearable with what you get in soloQ these days.

Everyone will outshine you in combat, probably even a good warrior.
So your only asset is your speed, but that is not an asset only to you. Revs, druids, mesmeres run as fast on the short distances we have in pvp. Usually you can easily predict, where a thief will go. An experienced team will not just let you take far. So basically if a team fight goes on at mid, you and they alike will lack a player. But theirs is the point you were supposed to cap.

The literally best you can do with good rotation is keeping the enemy team on their toes, force them to rotate aswell and perhaps loose a couple of fights because they predicted your movement wrong.

The main reason, other classes dont rotate and +1 as much is because they dont have to. Thief will outrun everyone, but only by an insignificant amount of time. I could do the thief job on a ranger aswell, but its more beneficial for my team, if I stay at mid and heal them.

In the end: Of course you can put the thief class to use. Of course you can close any power gap by being three times better than your opponent.
But if this was a sports team election in school, warrior and thief would be the two smallest kids with freckles and glasses that compete for the last spot on the cool kids team.
Tell me honestly: would you rather have a thief on a perfect pvp team than a ranger or a guardian?

Asrat.2645:

Tell me honestly: would you rather have a thief on a perfect pvp team than a ranger or a guardian?

There is no perfect team in solo Q.

If you’re talking what professions to bring in an organized, pro league team, that’s a whole ’nuther discussion.

But whether thieves fit into that tiny piece of PvP or not hardly has any bearing on whether thief is anywhere near being the ‘worst’.

Seriously guys, just because you are bad thieves and stuck in emerald/sapphire/ruby doesn’t mean the class is bad and can’t carry.

Look at Sindrenerr or Vallun for example, they know how to carry.

‘Of course you can put the thief class to use. Of course you can close any power gap by being three times better than your opponent.’
Quoting myself here. Yes, if you play on esports level and the entire enemy team doesnt, you can probably ‘carry’ your team.
If im not completely mistaken, sindrener stated on this very forum, that he eventually plays other classes on his teams demands.
And even if you perform extraordinary well on thief, you could perform significantly better on a rev. That is a fact.

Petoox.6570:

Seriously guys, just because you are bad thieves and stuck in emerald/sapphire/ruby doesn’t mean the class is bad and can’t carry.

Look at Sindrenerr or Vallun for example, they know how to carry.

They do not play thief in tourneys….. i am not sure about carry so much, i faced Sind at least. Unless they have someone to hold/fight on points (sup ele/scrapper) neither of them can do much either. It is not saying they are bad players, by all means they are really good but thief itself isn’t. To put it simple: sind on rev >>>>>>>sind on thief.

Lexander.4579:

i’ve done legend in under 90 matches playing only thief so no matchmaking is pretty good to me

Actually I think Cynz nailed it here, in another thread: and the bolded bit is why I think Thief is the worst class atm – certainly for Solo Queing.

Cynz.9437:

Thieves used to be able to 1v1 fairly well and participate in team fights. Anets idea behind all nerfs in 3 years was: oh thieves are so mobile and do high single target dmg, they should be squishy and useless in 1v1. Then they threw any common sense and their own logic out of window and made revs.

You can make thief works in current meta but it requires a lot of experience ( you need to be by mile better player than anyone in the match, you also have to rely on your team to survive in team fights) and frankly not worth it if you got rev anyway.^The class is legitimately middle finger from Anet to every thief player out there.

Cynz.9437:

Petoox.6570:

Seriously guys, just because you are bad thieves and stuck in emerald/sapphire/ruby doesn’t mean the class is bad and can’t carry.

Look at Sindrenerr or Vallun for example, they know how to carry.

They do not play thief in tourneys….. i am not sure about carry so much, i faced Sind at least. Unless they have someone to hold/fight on points (sup ele/scrapper) neither of them can do much either. It is not saying they are bad players, by all means they are really good but thief itself isn’t. To put it simple: sind on rev >>>>>>>sind on thief.

As much as you want to believe that. I’ll say this – there will be games where I would do more work on a rev in queues and there are games where thief > rev.

And if you mean that the only way to carry games equals to be able to “1v1” then yes thief aint able to do that

Ok. now. Since these people resepect your oppinion:
If there are 10 equally skilled and experienced players. Lets say, we have metaish team compositions…
But one of theses players is a thief.
Will the thieves team win?
Statistically speaking here, meaning: 60%+ winchance.
If people talk about ‘good thieves’ they naturally assume, the thief is the best player in a game, but you can not base your argumentation on that.
So what im saying is: there are no thieves in esports and we all know, thief is not a friendly class for bad players. So if neither high nor low level thieves are viable, the only reason, ranked soloq thieves win games is because either they or their teams are superior.

Ok, this thread is getting ridiculous. People are now just trying to point out any scenario where thieves aren’t ideal instead of talking to the point of the thread.

Thieves are not the worst class. They’re exceptionally strong in solo Q due to the nature of their role, even though you still wouldn’t want to stack them and wouldn’t necessarily take them over something like a rev in an organized group.

And regardless, they’re still much better than warriors or DH in most if not all scenarios (well, DH are probably better in low tier games for players who aren’t good at playing thieves, I guess).

Dahkeus.8243:

Ok, this thread is getting ridiculous. People are now just trying to point out any scenario where thieves aren’t ideal instead of talking to the point of the thread.

Thieves are not the worst class. They’re exceptionally strong in solo Q due to the nature of their role, even though you still wouldn’t want to stack them and wouldn’t necessarily take them over something like a rev in an competitive game <- changed this one.

And regardless, they’re still much better than warriors or DH in most if not all scenarios (well, DH are probably better in low tier games for players who aren’t good at playing thieves, I guess).

Rest is very accurate and all that needs to be said!

bluri.2653:

Dahkeus.8243:

Ok, this thread is getting ridiculous. People are now just trying to point out any scenario where thieves aren’t ideal instead of talking to the point of the thread.

Thieves are not the worst class. They’re exceptionally strong in solo Q due to the nature of their role, even though you still wouldn’t want to stack them and wouldn’t necessarily take them over something like a rev in an competitive game <- changed this one.

And regardless, they’re still much better than warriors or DH in most if not all scenarios (well, DH are probably better in low tier games for players who aren’t good at playing thieves, I guess).

Rest is very accurate and all that needs to be said!

Fair enough. =P

Ok. you got a point with the guards i guess. I’d probably rather have a thief than a guard for ranked. Sooo…there would be two classes effectively worse across all possible pvp scenarios. Can we agree on that?

Asrat.2645:

Ok. you got a point with the guards i guess. I’d probably rather have a thief than a guard for ranked. Sooo…there would be two classes effectively worse across all possible pvp scenarios. Can we agree on that?

Sure, I can agree to that.

But really, regardless of where it compares to other classes, thief is in a solid, balanced spot and there’s no reason to believe that playing a thief is any sort of handicap from reaching the PvP rank you want.

I never said that tho. I said ‘thief is not particulary bad at anything and a balanced class overall’ but ‘I can not think of a class that is worse’ So I came to admit now, that there are two who are. Makes me feel a little better, does not solve the problem. And does not change the fact, that I can help my team better, if I do not play thief, even if playing thief wont make us loos (like some people say)

That’ll depend on your playstyle. I’ve swapped around several professions this season (Scrapper, Chrono, and Herald on meta builds), primarily for the achievements, and I’ve found Thief to be what is best for me to carry a team.

Your mileage may vary depending on your playstyle though…

Might be. I can opnely say, that im not happy with the +1 style. I can do it, sure. But I dont want to. I prefer to fight my own battles.

by far… they only have 2 actually viable builds, which are both highly dependent on what the other team is running. You will either wreck or be wrecked. Honestly, you can be more thiefy with the other classes now.

I’ve been doing some experimenting in damage reduction, and having maxed it out, a thief is still a one hit down to dragonhunters fartbox traps (dutch oven if you will), also shatter mesmers, and rangers will one shot a thief with full toughness, condition cleanse, and 27% additional damage reduction.

It’s my personal feeling that they need to rework the class from the ground up.

Link.1049:

It’s my personal feeling that they need to rework the class from the ground up.

Probably, yes, or maybe they should just release GW3 – I really don’t get most of what we have since June/HoT.
I was about to CnD and BS a necro today but oh noz – wasn’t allowed, I was stealthed by an ally (Engi) just when I swung CnD – great idea, anet, all of it.

There are wto basic attempts to fix the thief:
a) Nerf the op stuff, finetune some stats, make all weaponsets viable: we are fine. Not much to do here
b) Actually a complete rework of the classes mechanics, replacement of skills, full rework of weaponsets, heavily moving traits in and out the daredevil.
The second try might adress the underlying issues of our symptoms, but may aswell make everything worse.
However: whatever you want to do, if you are talikng about ‘damage reduction’ you are following the wrong path. Toughness, vitality, passives, protection. Everything that implies you get hit is for the weaklings’ classes. It is not what the thief needs. Our sustainability with well times evades, interrupts and good gameplay is at the very border. If they severly nerf some of the damage sources, they will also need to nerf things like unhindered combatant, or nobody will ever kill a thief again.
You are not supposed to survive a dh trapbomb. You are supposed to trigger all the traps with a dodge, and get out of there. In exchange, a good burst setup should be rewarded with melting soft targets aswell. Thats where we lack.

Thief profession is good.
The majority of people playing thief isn’t.
Let’s say that if you have a thief in your party it’s a loss, but there are few exceptions

Link.1049:

by far… they only have 2 actually viable builds, which are both highly dependent on what the other team is running. You will either wreck or be wrecked. Honestly, you can be more thiefy with the other classes now.

I’ve been doing some experimenting in damage reduction, and having maxed it out, a thief is still a one hit down to dragonhunters fartbox traps (dutch oven if you will), also shatter mesmers, and rangers will one shot a thief with full toughness, condition cleanse, and 27% additional damage reduction.

It’s my personal feeling that they need to rework the class from the ground up.

If you’re dying to DH traps in 1 hit, you’re doing something very wrong.

There are some tough fights in the current meta and you still don’t want to 1 v 1 a DH (you don’t really want to 1 v 1 much anyways), but I’ll take a DH on the enemy team over a scrapper or tempest any day. They’re 1-trick ponies that are easily burst when their blocks are down.

not even close to even being mediocre. Thief is brutal if played well and the team got some ideas about how to play WITH a thief.

Petoox.6570:

Seriously guys, just because you are bad thieves and stuck in emerald/sapphire/ruby doesn’t mean the class is bad and can’t carry.

Look at Sindrenerr or Vallun for example, they know how to carry.

vollun lost 10:1 vs rev on stream pure duel style.

Urejt.5648:

Petoox.6570:

Seriously guys, just because you are bad thieves and stuck in emerald/sapphire/ruby doesn’t mean the class is bad and can’t carry.

Look at Sindrenerr or Vallun for example, they know how to carry.

vollun lost 10:1 vs rev on stream pure duel style.

Fortunately, PvP is based on conquest, not duels. Thief wins games by being able to rotate faster than any other class and can often do so undetected.

Winning 1 v 1s is nice for bragging rights, but forcing an enemy to constantly watch home while you assist in mid simply because they know that they’ll get decapped if they try to assist is more valuable.

Dahkeus.8243:

Urejt.5648:

Petoox.6570:

Seriously guys, just because you are bad thieves and stuck in emerald/sapphire/ruby doesn’t mean the class is bad and can’t carry.

Look at Sindrenerr or Vallun for example, they know how to carry.

vollun lost 10:1 vs rev on stream pure duel style.

Fortunately, PvP is based on conquest, not duels. Thief wins games by being able to rotate faster than any other class and can often do so undetected.

Winning 1 v 1s is nice for bragging rights, but forcing an enemy to constantly watch home while you assist in mid simply because they know that they’ll get decapped if they try to assist is more valuable.

But here’s the thing. Revs and Mesmers can do that and they can do it better. Its just the belief from the PvP community that it’s a thief only job. NO. It’s not, in fact 2 other classes do it better.

the moment you think war is any better then thief is the moment people stop taking you seriously

Asrat.2645:

There are wto basic attempts to fix the thief:
a) Nerf the op stuff, finetune some stats, make all weaponsets viable: we are fine. Not much to do here
b) Actually a complete rework of the classes mechanics, replacement of skills, full rework of weaponsets, heavily moving traits in and out the daredevil.
The second try might adress the underlying issues of our symptoms, but may aswell make everything worse.
However: whatever you want to do, if you are talikng about ‘damage reduction’ you are following the wrong path. Toughness, vitality, passives, protection. Everything that implies you get hit is for the weaklings’ classes. It is not what the thief needs. Our sustainability with well times evades, interrupts and good gameplay is at the very border. If they severly nerf some of the damage sources, they will also need to nerf things like unhindered combatant, or nobody will ever kill a thief again.
You are not supposed to survive a dh trapbomb. You are supposed to trigger all the traps with a dodge, and get out of there. In exchange, a good burst setup should be rewarded with melting soft targets aswell. Thats where we lack.

Can’t dodge a DH dutch oven if they aren’t standing it. You don’t see it coming and since it’s an instant down you have no time to evade. You can only evade if you’ve seen the dragonhunter standing in the immediate area. The experiment with damage reduction was more to see if there was a build that would allow you to evade that initial burst when you’re walking and set off a trap you couldn’t see. No other class has instant down traps. Mesmer used to but they patched that so now stun breaks or evades can get you out of it.

On the opposite side of things I’ve worked to maximize damage going full glass, to see if I could down a DH standing still as fast as they down others. the answer is no. Hence why I further think that they need to rework the class from the ground up. Even before HoT came out I was worried this would be an issue as Daredevil seemed to be an afterthought rather than fully fleshed out like Dragonhunter, Reaper, and Chronomancer.

My current build works ok for me in PvP though I tend to either wreck or get wrecked. There is no middle ground anymore. Current meta is scrapper, reaper, druid, or elementalist. Revenant’s too though you really have to know your rotation. If you’re considering a thief, I’d recommend going Rev instead since they are like thieves on ALL the steroids. With the right build these take 2-3 people to down one, and with only 5 people on your team it’s game-ending before it starts.

I feel for the warriors too as they need a lot of help too… about the only thing they have going for them is the rifle right now. That said, making them hit harder isn’t the answer, there is too much power creep currently, I think anet would do well to nerf many of the classes before buffing anyone else more. The game now plays like a book that got a contract with a publisher when only half of it was written…but the deadline was so tight they had to rush the second half (I think this applies to WvW too). Thief and Warrior for HoT were definitely second half classes.

bluri.2653:

Dahkeus.8243:

Ok, this thread is getting ridiculous. People are now just trying to point out any scenario where thieves aren’t ideal instead of talking to the point of the thread.

Thieves are not the worst class. They’re exceptionally strong in solo Q due to the nature of their role, even though you still wouldn’t want to stack them and wouldn’t necessarily take them over something like a rev in an competitive game <- changed this one.

And regardless, they’re still much better than warriors or DH in most if not all scenarios (well, DH are probably better in low tier games for players who aren’t good at playing thieves, I guess).

Rest is very accurate and all that needs to be said!

Sorry but you two contradict yourselves within the same post and actually prove what most these posters are saying.

Thief is viable when you greatly out skill your opponents.

In pro league last night we saw only 1 thief and if you watched he literally looked like a scrub. Nowe I’m not saying he’s a scrub but that during that match his class was so out matched he looked like it.

You both even admit to thief being unviable in competitive play…..sorry that’s not a class being ok. That’s the definition of a class in need of some help.