Again this is just being pedantic. Since I think D/P and D/D were equally buffed, and in the end there’s only two D/X weaponsets so you could say one benefiting more than the other is like the flip of a coin. But…
That’s actually one of the problems. The solution that ArenaNet comes up with not only helps D/D but also D/P. So in the end, the gap between D/P and the other sets are ever growing wider. To keep D/P in check, it needs to be nerfed.
Alternatively, they could buff the utility of offhand dagger and it wouldn’t buff D/P at all, plus it would close the gap between D/P and D/D + S/D + P/D.
I, personally, am open to any type of improvement to other weapon sets that don’t directly or indirectly buff D/P. The challenge is, you can’t do the same with off-hand pistol. So what would be the solution, buff main hand Pistol? If that would be the case, then P/D will have double buffs. The solution should not be localized on the weapon skills, instead, then should balance including some changes to the traits.
The traits should be generic and without exclusivity. Trickery has too many exclusive traits that need to become available to every build possible. Then a Thief can pick and choose any trait line and any weapon set without feeling that they are missing something. I like the idea of tradeoff, but the Thief’s choices have become less and less comprehensive over time. Nowadays, the choices are nothing but superficial since in order to make Thief viable, the player needs to take the traits and weapon set that ArenaNet dictates.
It is fairly obvious that they don’t want anything else but D/P in PvP since it makes balancing easy for them. However with such limitation, the Thief became really easy to counter. So the goal is to expand the choices and give Thief more tools and more role other than what ArenaNet have defined for them. The player should define their profession, not the Dev. If I like D/P and I like to deal condition damage, why isn’t that viable? A trait that grants condition damage should be available to all weapon set because when an enemy sees me using P/D it’s a dead giveaway that I have a condition damage build. The beautiful thing about D/D is that the enemy cannot predict what build I’m running.
Oh, look D/P, he’s going for stealth burst. Oh look, S/D, he’s going for boon strip evade spam. Oh look P/P single target high crit. It shouldn’t be a dead giveaway like that.
So if we go by your solution of buffing off-hand dagger, how exactly will it open up diversity in builds?
Again this is just being pedantic. Since I think D/P and D/D were equally buffed, and in the end there’s only two D/X weaponsets so you could say one benefiting more than the other is like the flip of a coin. But…
That’s actually one of the problems. The solution that ArenaNet comes up with not only helps D/D but also D/P. So in the end, the gap between D/P and the other sets are ever growing wider. To keep D/P in check, it needs to be nerfed.
Alternatively, they could buff the utility of offhand dagger and it wouldn’t buff D/P at all, plus it would close the gap between D/P and D/D + S/D + P/D.
I, personally, am open to any type of improvement to other weapon sets that don’t directly or indirectly buff D/P. The challenge is, you can’t do the same with off-hand pistol. So what would be the solution, buff main hand Pistol? If that would be the case, then P/D will have double buffs. The solution should not be localized on the weapon skills, instead, then should balance including some changes to the traits.
The traits should be generic and without exclusivity. Trickery has too many exclusive traits that need to become available to every build possible. Then a Thief can pick and choose any trait line and any weapon set without feeling that they are missing something. I like the idea of tradeoff, but the Thief’s choices have become less and less comprehensive over time. Nowadays, the choices are nothing but superficial since in order to make Thief viable, the player needs to take the traits and weapon set that ArenaNet dictates.
It is fairly obvious that they don’t want anything else but D/P in PvP since it makes balancing easy for them. However with such limitation, the Thief became really easy to counter. So the goal is to expand the choices and give Thief more tools and more role other than what ArenaNet have defined for them. The player should define their profession, not the Dev. If I like D/P and I like to deal condition damage, why isn’t that viable? A trait that grants condition damage should be available to all weapon set because when an enemy sees me using P/D it’s a dead giveaway that I have a condition damage build. The beautiful thing about D/D is that the enemy cannot predict what build I’m running.
Oh, look D/P, he’s going for stealth burst. Oh look, S/D, he’s going for boon strip evade spam. Oh look P/P single target high crit. It shouldn’t be a dead giveaway like that.
So if we go by your solution of buffing off-hand dagger, how exactly will it open up diversity in builds?
Buffing OH dagger would simply be the start, not the end. I’ve advocated for making preparedness baseline and putting Bountiful Theft in the Master minor slot and moving the steal CDR from sleight of hand to baseline as well. I’ve advocated for pistol overhauls that would help P/P and raise the skill floor on P/D (imo). Buffing OH dagger is simply the starting point. My contention here is that nerfing D/P beyond just the damage from shadowshot is the wrong way to go here.
D/D isn’t justifiably mobile outside of HS spam, which is just MH dagger, and D/P offers better in-combat mobility from Shadow Shot. S/x is more mobile so long as there’s a target, and obviously shortbow is mobility king.
The only sets D/D is more mobile than are P/D and P/P, which are the worst for obvious reasons being that neither of these have a gap close or OOC movement abilities.
D/D doesn’t have to sit in a smokefield
All that matters with D/D is your own moves.
ETA²: So yes if people mean “running from a to z”, then D/D isn’t mobile. In fight though there’s nothing more mobile than that set.
That’s actually one of the problems. The solution that ArenaNet comes up with not only helps D/D but also D/P. So in the end, the gap between D/P and the other sets are ever growing wider. To keep D/P in check, it needs to be nerfed.
Yes and no, right now at least the traits in SA favour only D/P – they’re merged in a way which doesn’t really benefit D/D – as both sets have got a different playstyle.
ETA: Prepardness only really helps D/P.
ETA³: But I do want unblockable on CnD – I really can’t with all these passives flying around. And I want it without having to take BV (cast too long and I love my daggerstorm which is of more use to me anyway as I never know if my next fight will be a 1 vs 1 (haha), vs 5 or vs zerg).
(edited by Jana.6831)
D/D: In fight though there’s nothing more mobile than that set.
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
That’s actually one of the problems. The solution that ArenaNet comes up with not only helps D/D but also D/P. So in the end, the gap between D/P and the other sets are ever growing wider. To keep D/P in check, it needs to be nerfed.
Yes and no, right now at least the traits in SA favour only D/P – they’re merged in a way which doesn’t really benefit D/D – as both sets have got a different playstyle.
That’s also a yes and a no. There are D/P builds that goes DA/Tr/DrD so they never benefit from SA at all — so that’s a no. In core traits build — it’s a yes. I personally want Shadowstep to also benefit from SA and give CnD shadowstep.
ETA: Prepardness only really helps D/P.
Yes because it is a weapon set with the lowest total cost. In order for other sets to benefit from Preparedness, their total costs need to be standardized. Right now S/P, for example, is only useful when spec for Trick — without Trick, S/P is unusable.
ETA³: But I do want unblockable on CnD – I really can’t with all these passives flying around. And I want it without having to take BV (cast too long and I love my daggerstorm which is of more use to me anyway as I never know if my next fight will be a 1 vs 1 (haha), vs 5 or vs zerg).
CnD just need to have the casting cost removed really. This way I can capitalize on whatever small window I get during combat. There’s no valid reason to telegraph CnD anymore, it doesn’t deal as much damage as it used to be.
D/D: In fight though there’s nothing more mobile than that set.
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
Surprising, eh?
I think after 2 years of D/D and 14 chars (of which 5 are D/D thieves) I can really say that. Reason why I fell in love with thief, especially D/D.
Edit: Spelling
(edited by Jana.6831)
That’s actually one of the problems. The solution that ArenaNet comes up with not only helps D/D but also D/P. So in the end, the gap between D/P and the other sets are ever growing wider. To keep D/P in check, it needs to be nerfed.
Yes and no, right now at least the traits in SA favour only D/P – they’re merged in a way which doesn’t really benefit D/D – as both sets have got a different playstyle.
That’s also a yes and a no. There are D/P builds that goes DA/Tr/DrD so they never benefit from SA at all — so that’s a no. In core traits build — it’s a yes. I personally want Shadowstep to also benefit from SA and give CnD shadowstep.
ETA: Prepardness only really helps D/P.
Yes because it is a weapon set with the lowest total cost. In order for other sets to benefit from Preparedness, their total costs need to be standardized. Right now S/P, for example, is only useful when spec for Trick — without Trick, S/P is unusable.
ETA³: But I do want unblockable on CnD – I really can’t with all these passives flying around. And I want it without having to take BV (cast too long and I love my daggerstorm which is of more use to me anyway as I never know if my next fight will be a 1 vs 1 (haha), vs 5 or vs zerg).
CnD just need to have the casting cost removed really. This way I can capitalize on whatever small window I get during combat. There’s no valid reason to telegraph CnD anymore, it doesn’t deal as much damage as it used to be.
I actually semi-agree with you on some of these points. I’d like to see a different implementation in giving Dancing Dagger a rollover instead of CnD having a shadowstep, but I like the intent.
D/D: In fight though there’s nothing more mobile than that set.
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
Surprising, eh?
I think after 2 years of D/D and 14 chars (of which 5 are D/D thieves) I can really say that. Reason why I fell in love with thief, especially D/D.Edit: Spelling
I guess constantly moving to your target’s flank during combat does not qualify as mobility — I love S/D for this reason too.
So let’s look at the grand scheme of things.
Lets say the vocal minority here who do not understand balance succeed and get DP nerfed to DD levels….what do you think the thief class will be after that? Please tell us what you think will happen from there.
I guess constantly moving to your target’s flank during combat does not qualify as mobility — I love S/D for this reason too.
No single skill roots you, they’re all fluid. To me that is mobility – to most other people it’s probably really moving from a to z.
So let’s look at the grand scheme of things.
Lets say the vocal minority here who do not understand balance succeed and get DP nerfed to DD levels….what do you think the thief class will be after that? Please tell us what you think will happen from there.
The vocal minority that knows nothing about thief is you – we already had that. If you want to know the “grand scheme of things” read the thread – a lot of great thoughts in here.
And btw: If I were interested in other classes (thus know them) I would probably do the same on their forums as the non existent diversity sucks.
D/D isn’t justifiably mobile outside of HS spam, which is just MH dagger, and D/P offers better in-combat mobility from Shadow Shot. S/x is more mobile so long as there’s a target, and obviously shortbow is mobility king.
The only sets D/D is more mobile than are P/D and P/P, which are the worst for obvious reasons being that neither of these have a gap close or OOC movement abilities.
D/D doesn’t have to sit in a smokefield
All that matters with D/D is your own moves.
ETA²: So yes if people mean “running from a to z”, then D/D isn’t mobile. In fight though there’s nothing more mobile than that set.
Please elaborate. In my three and a half years of playing D/D I have found the set to be extremely poor in its mobility.
S/D packs so much more in-combat mobility that I don’t even run shortbow and use it as my second set because D/D lacks it so much.
So let’s look at the grand scheme of things.
Lets say the vocal minority here who do not understand balance succeed and get DP nerfed to DD levels….what do you think the thief class will be after that? Please tell us what you think will happen from there.
You see, your question would have merit if you actually read the thread and find out for yourself that nobody is advocating the nerf D/P to D/D’s level before posting.
Please elaborate. In my three and a half years of playing D/D I have found the set to be extremely poor in its mobility.
S/D packs so much more in-combat mobility that I don’t even run shortbow and use it as my second set because D/D lacks it so much.
No single skill roots you, they’re all fluid. To me that is mobility – to most other people it’s probably really moving from a to z.
Please elaborate. In my three and a half years of playing D/D I have found the set to be extremely poor in its mobility.
S/D packs so much more in-combat mobility that I don’t even run shortbow and use it as my second set because D/D lacks it so much.
No single skill roots you, they’re all fluid. To me that is mobility – to most other people it’s probably really moving from a to z.
By that logic P/D is an incredibly mobile set because none of the abilities root you in place.
S/D also doesn’t have any skills which root the player and has more seamless and fluid animations on its skills than D/D does. Actually, Death Blossom’s movement/animation is slower than Flanking Strike’s, and S/D also offers better travel speed, gap opening AND closing, and fight reset potential.
So I’m really not seeing your point here.
So let’s look at the grand scheme of things.
Lets say the vocal minority here who do not understand balance succeed and get DP nerfed to DD levels….what do you think the thief class will be after that? Please tell us what you think will happen from there.
The vocal minority that knows nothing about thief is you – we already had that. If you want to know the “grand scheme of things” read the thread – a lot of great thoughts in here.
And btw: If I were interested in other classes (thus know them) I would probably do the same on their forums as the non existent diversity sucks.
I read the thread and laughed a lot,while doing so I might add. What I found is a bunch a WvW SA D/D thieves are lobbying to nerf DP so they can kill them while secretly hoping anet then buffs D/D to compensate for the destruction of thief viability.
I’m giving y’all a second chance to redeem yourselves
By that logic P/D is an incredibly mobile set because none of the abilities root you in place.
Yes and no – it doesn’t have DB.
S/D also doesn’t have any skills which root the player
You’re still bound to move in a certain way when using your #3.
and has more seamless and fluid animations on its skills than D/D does. Actually, Death Blossom’s movement/animation is slower than Flanking Strike’s, and S/D also offers better travel speed, gap opening AND closing, and fight reset potential.
I thought we agreed on the movement, yet you talk again about gap closers :P. The animation of DB might be marginally slower – I don’t think anyone is able to really see that.
So I’m really not seeing your point here.
That’s ok, as I stated my opinion.
I read the thread and laughed a lot,while doing so I might add. What I found is a bunch a WvW SA D/D thieves are lobbying to nerf DP so they can kill them while secretly hoping anet then buffs D/D to compensate for the destruction of thief viability.
I’m giving y’all a second chance to redeem yourselves
Do you want to contribute to this thread or haven’t you gotten enough attention elsewhere today that’s why you need to come here and be rude so someone talks to you?
By that logic P/D is an incredibly mobile set because none of the abilities root you in place.
Yes and no – it doesn’t have DB.
S/D also doesn’t have any skills which root the player
You’re still bound to move in a certain way when using your #3.
and has more seamless and fluid animations on its skills than D/D does. Actually, Death Blossom’s movement/animation is slower than Flanking Strike’s, and S/D also offers better travel speed, gap opening AND closing, and fight reset potential.
I thought we agreed on the movement, yet you talk again about gap closers :P. The animation of DB might be marginally slower – I don’t think anyone is able to really see that.
So I’m really not seeing your point here.
That’s ok, as I stated my opinion.
Death Blossom also forces a movement pattern, just as FS does, and FS’s movement can be controlled with perfect granularity in any direction as DB can, plus FS can be used in stealth and in closer proximity to the target or swap-cancelled at the end of the evasion frame/re-position while not revealing the thief.
Mobility is not uniformly defined by casting speeds and roots. Doing so would be ridiculous and would be a blatant lie. In the past game I played, one class had a passive 2.5x land speed over all other classes, but could only deal substantial damage by rooting itself in place, and was subsequently very, very squishy, but dealt absolutely massive damage while rooted. Cancelling these effects early and knowing when to attack and when not to was critical to succeed, and the profession was so mobile to the point where it could become literally impossible to hit if played properly. By such a definition, it would be considered extremely “immobile” which is absolutely not the case. Declaring otherwise is equivocal to try convincing people ranger shortbow has incredible mobility while a warrior’s GS has horrible mobility.
Death Blossom also forces a movement pattern
No, only thing is you fly through the air, you can stir which direction you want it to be. If you use S/D #3 and want to go forward you first have to swerve to the side..
plus FS can be used in stealth
So I can’t use DB in stealth – good to know.
Mobility is not uniformly defined by casting speeds and roots. Doing so would be ridiculous and would be a blatant lie.
So, I lie when I say “to me D/D is the most mobile set in this game” ok then.
“I like cookies” “That’s a lie!!”
No offense, but you really have issues – let go.
(edited by Jana.6831)
“Is she completely insane” yeah, I am but hear me out:
D/P is by far the best weaponset we have: gap closer, stealth “on demand”, interrupt and blind all on it.
Me as a D/D thief : Gap closer = steal (frequency depends on trickery), blind: CiS (now in grandmaster), interrupt: sleight of hand, only availlable via trickery.
A D/P thief usually doesn’t stay melee, a D/D thief has to. So, we need reliable condi clear which has been nerfed in June.
D/P now does more damage than D/D since June as the combo of a D/P thief is usually smoke field, heartseeker, shadowshot (which does more damage than CnD which is hard to land and puts the thief into the AoE range of the enemy)So, if all traits are balanced around D/P which is the set with the most utility thief has got (staff aside) – then lets nerf D/P so the other weapon sets have got a chance.
EDIT: SUMMARY
All other thief builds had to get their utility from traits – all of these traits (except those in trickery) have been deleted back in June – the only thief build that was halfway viable has been D/P because they have all the utility other builds need to trait for on their weaponset. Still they can also trait for these utilities = have got twice as many. And since the utility on D/P is what most if not all thieves need or want (teleport, blind, smokefield = stealth) D/P are a lot stronger than any of the other thief’ builds.
Since offhand and mainhand weapon do always the same for every thief, except their distinguished #3, nerfing shadowshot and/or putting some of the utilities that is on the whole D/P set into traits would be an option. Reason: if you have nerfed the set you can buff the traits to which all thieves have got access to. Also D/P wouldn’t be as self sustained as it is now. D/P has always been stronger than any other set; simply putting back the traits the other builds need doesn’t really solve the problem, especially not since now the traits are merged. And I’d actually like to get the 50 movement speed in stealth and blind on stealth. I don’t need stealth on steal and the falling trait though.
I don’t want D/P to be nerfed to the ground, but I don’t want D/P to be the excuse why it’s not worked on thief any further – also I don’t think that simply buffing the other weapons would really bring other sets on par with D/P especially not since most of our traits are now best suited for D/P.I do think it’s a shame that thief build diversity has been killed off in June – it’s not just about D/D, but I happen to know the set best.
The rest has been discussed in the thread – it might be sometimes painful to read.
Anet, please don’t just listen to your community – most S/D, D/D and P/D thieves have already quit – you won’t hear any suggestions from them anymore.
ETA² :
Right now a lot if not most traits favour the D/P playstyle – There’s no way other sets have access to all the traits as always 2 of them are glued together. This could be used to either redesign the traits to favour other sets (which would be an indirect nerf to D/P) or the most common traits are turned into either baseline or minor traits so every thief has got access to them. Still every set should be able to take the traits neccessary to make their set and/or playstyle work.
I just want to see multiple viable weapon sets. Reverting S/D to where it was about 18 months ago, changing P/P #2 to something more useful, and leaving D/P where it is at would improve my mood.
Also, the only pistol trait is still lame.
It takes really good players to make D/P seem powerful (as I’m learning). Most of us are not that good to be honest.
I just want to see multiple viable weapon sets. Reverting S/D to where it was about 18 months ago, changing P/P #2 to something more useful, and leaving D/P where it is at would improve my mood.
Also, the only pistol trait is still lame.
It takes really good players to make D/P seem powerful (as I’m learning). Most of us are not that good to be honest.
Not really, it’s pretty easy, although I watched “the best” thief in pvp the other day and his timing was pretty godlike. He wouldn’t have that much success with another set – and that is sad and one of the points.
I just want to see multiple viable weapon sets. Reverting S/D to where it was about 18 months ago, changing P/P #2 to something more useful, and leaving D/P where it is at would improve my mood.
Also, the only pistol trait is still lame.
It takes really good players to make D/P seem powerful (as I’m learning). Most of us are not that good to be honest.
Not really, it’s pretty easy, although I watched “the best” thief in pvp the other day and his timing was pretty godlike. He wouldn’t have that much success with another set – and that is sad and one of the points.
If you find D/P easy then I congratulate you. I see a lot, I mean a lot, of bad thieves and frankly I’m one of them. The amount of AoE alone makes thief (of any stripe) challenging for me. Having said that, I enjoy the challenge.
If you find D/P easy then I congratulate you. I see a lot, I mean a lot, of bad thieves and frankly I’m one of them. The amount of AoE alone makes thief (of any stripe) challenging for me. Having said that, I enjoy the challenge.
D/P is the easiest set thief has got.. If you already know thief then D/P shouldn’t be a problem for you.
Death Blossom also forces a movement pattern
No, only thing is you fly through the air, you can stir which direction you want it to be. If you use S/D #3 and want to go forward you first have to swerve to the side..
plus FS can be used in stealth
So I can’t use DB in stealth – good to know.
Mobility is not uniformly defined by casting speeds and roots. Doing so would be ridiculous and would be a blatant lie.
So, I lie when I say “to me D/D is the most mobile set in this game” ok then.
“I like cookies” “That’s a lie!!”No offense, but you really have issues – let go.
It’s actually the most mobile set thief has
I think after 2 years of D/D and 14 chars (of which 5 are D/D thieves) I can really say that.
Funny how you insert “I think” when initially these claims were not made with these statements, or really, any kind of language suggesting this was of your own perception or through how you reached such conclusions, which is what stemmed the disagreement to begin with. I asked for an elaboration and discussion. When others commented disagreeing with such assertions, your immediate reaction was not to instead defend the argument but reinforce your authority or belittle their own experiences, and when I inquired with counter-examples, you maintained your stance on a personal definition of mobility which strictly speaking based on the Merriam-Webster definition, is far-off from what your claims entail.
I am not disagreeing with your right to have an opinion but your proclamations which have no justification.
Unwilling to admit a mistake your argument has boiled down to personal insults as it often does via claims of “elitism” in that I have spoken lowly or have pushed for nerfs to Shadow Arts in the past claiming that new thieves using the line will learn on crutches and if never breaking free from it will never get better at the profession holistically.
If you find D/P easy then I congratulate you. I see a lot, I mean a lot, of bad thieves and frankly I’m one of them. The amount of AoE alone makes thief (of any stripe) challenging for me. Having said that, I enjoy the challenge.
D/P is the easiest set thief has got.. If you already know thief then D/P shouldn’t be a problem for you.
Interesting how you claim D/P to be the same way in that it’s easy and yields high reward, yet you’re forming these assertions on the basis that a thief claiming his own lack of knowledge/skill would need to have some prior mastery of the class to justify the combination being extremely low-risk high-reward and subsequently nerfing the weapon set to improve core thief. What you’re saying is, in order to understand the strength of D/P, a player needs to learn by taking off the training wheels, and informed conclusions can be reached this way.
Also known as you’re posing quite literally the exact argument I did regarding why the original SA trait line needed to be nerfed, and yet the entire extent of a large portion of your proclamations for D/D being weak stem from not than inherent design flaws with the skills and traits themselves, but rather getting the bonus power the trait line once offered.
As I had said in the past to you as well, if you learned to play without SA, I did to the people I taught how to play the profession, then then the “nerfs” would have largely been buffs, too.
I do have issues with your willingness to play martyr and then immediately proclaim yourself as being above certain subjects and argue subjects which you suit to your agenda, refuse mistakes, twist words, and call names in a completely hypocritical manner.
And on a side-note: you can steer FS. De-select target and learn the camera angling adjustments. I use it for forward movement quite frequently while chilled and crippled because its lateral movements can be steered with distance coverage identical to Death Blossom’s but with smaller hit-boxes or curved paths for swaps for setting up backstabs or target stickiness in stealth.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
umm….
“I do have issues with your willingness to play martyr and then immediately proclaim yourself as being above certain subjects and argue subjects which you suit to your agenda, refuse mistakes, twist words, and call names in a completely hypocritical manner.”
“In my opinion D/D is the most mobile set as none of the skills is rooted”
“YOU’RE A LIAR YOU’RE PLAYING MARTYR RAGE RAGE RAGE!!!!”
Are you sure you’re fine?
Also, you yourself said D/P was easy and it is – it’s actually a no brainer and I don’t want to discuss it again.
To make it simple: Shut up =)
ETA: In this thread I already wrote “D/P is no easy way to play GW, but it’s the easy way to play thief” The person I was referring to said they had experience in S/D, so what I wrote was: “If you have already played thief (S/D), then D/P should be no problem for you.”
What my intention with this thread was: Make all thief sets more or less equal. As long as everything is catered to suit D/P none of the other sets will be. And you’re the one calling for everything to be nerfed as it doesn’t “require enough skill”. So: let go, yes?
ETA²: Because I’m pretty bummed: It is my opinion that D/D is the most mobile set there is – I don’t need to discuss that. I accept that other people have got an other opinion – I already did – I just didn’t accept your arguments for that – that doesn’t make me “PLAYING THE MARTYR TWISTING WORDS CHANGING FACTS!!!” I simply disagree with you – deal with it. And this is a kitten non issue!
(edited by Jana.6831)
If you find D/P easy then I congratulate you. I see a lot, I mean a lot, of bad thieves and frankly I’m one of them. The amount of AoE alone makes thief (of any stripe) challenging for me. Having said that, I enjoy the challenge.
D/P is the easiest set thief has got.. If you already know thief then D/P shouldn’t be a problem for you.
If you’re trying to recruit for [Teef], it’s a poor job lass. Getting to know thief is a job in and of itself. But keep on posting, no skin off my back.
And I never said D/P wasn’t the easiest weapon set. That much has proven over and over.
If you find D/P easy then I congratulate you. I see a lot, I mean a lot, of bad thieves and frankly I’m one of them. The amount of AoE alone makes thief (of any stripe) challenging for me. Having said that, I enjoy the challenge.
D/P is the easiest set thief has got.. If you already know thief then D/P shouldn’t be a problem for you.
If you’re trying to recruit for [Teef], it’s a poor job lass. Getting to know thief is a job in and of itself. But keep on posting, no skin off my back.
And I never said D/P wasn’t the easiest weapon set. That much has proven over and over.
If you find D/P easy then I congratulate you.
And I never said D/P wasn’t the easiest weapon set.
And your point is? That you hate me?
That I should write an essay about how to play thief?
Or are you simply ***hurt that you can’t pull D/P off? There’s some videos out there of people playing D/P – helped me a lot with D/D. Thief itself is still a pretty broken class, no matter what – but it doesn’t help if the only set kept alive is D/P (and staff because of HoT). That’s the point.
(edited by Jana.6831)
“In my opinion D/D is the most mobile set as none of the skills is rooted”
And yet you never said “in my opinion”. Which was my point. On multiple occasions, however, you did make this claim as fact with no basis for the observation until questioned.
“YOU’RE A LIAR YOU’RE PLAYING MARTYR RAGE RAGE RAGE!!!!”
Are you sure you’re fine?
My point exactly. To me, not coming up with an intelligible reply or being able to discuss this as adults, recognizing hypocrisy is quite telling. If you wish to call it rage, so be it, and I’ll let that delusion prosper just as much as you wish for it to. After all, this is your thread which other people are observing. Mind you, your reactions to a debate resulting in “RAGE RAGE RAGE!!!!” again speak volumes of your willingness to discuss these matters like an adult.
Also, you yourself said D/P was easy and it is – it’s actually a no brainer and I don’t want to discuss it again.
To make it simple: Shut up =)
I did claim the set is easy. I made the claim the set is easy and over-performs almost entirely because of Shadow Shot’s damage. I did not claim the set was “easy” for any other reason at this time, and base my solution on adjustments to reduce the skill floor and maintain the skill ceiling of the weapon set/class. I identified the problem, argued my stance on why I have such perceptions, and proposed a solution. But this doesn’t make me a hypocrite, because as you mentioned, I have supported many endeavors which “destroyed” the class because I expect the class to be played at the highest level of skill, rather than balancing towards lower-common denominators which results in high-skilled play leading to stagnant optimization which leads to low-skilled play following carbon-copy ideologies which leads to polarized balance. I vouch for solutions to game-wide and class-wide problems, with the intent to solve the problems identified rather than targeted and oddly-placed power bumps in hopes such adjustments will result in enough power to destabilize short-term optimization to create the illusion of balance and not constantly re-iterating over these decisions in the future.
See, if arguing on the premise of “easy”, it is only proper to assure that the one making claims is arguing other combinations are “easy” whilst setting his basis for comparison at the highest possible difficulty point within reasonable context; for then subjective balance ideology of what constitutes “easier” becomes more objective than any arbitrary location on the scale of ease-of-use relative to potency as studied through metric data and what can be observed on the design-level. My point is, the basis for your insults rests on flawed logic and hypocrisy.
As far as “shutting up” goes, again, this is my point proven regarding my perceptions of your handling of this debacle. But I’ll hold true to my word and simply will no longer reply to this thread unless called for, and I’d rather not be the source of unnecessary stress in someone’s life should they on an open forum feel the need to dismiss a community member.
Carry on~
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
And yet you never said “in my opinion”. Which was my point.
No single skill roots you, they’re all fluid. To me that is mobility – to most other people it’s probably really moving from a to z.
No? First quote directed at you. “To me = In my opinion”, btw.
My point exactly. To me
<<-!!
not coming up with an intelligible reply or being able to discuss this as adults
It is my opinion – I don’t need to discuss my opinion and in most cases it’s useless to discuss an opinion that’s based on a feeling. And you’re acting like a child having an epic meltdown right now.
I did claim the set is easy. I made the claim the set is easy and over-performs almost entirely because of Shadow Shot’s damage. I did not claim the set was “easy” for any other reason at this time, and base my solution on adjustments to reduce the skill floor and maintain the skill ceiling of the weapon set/class. I identified the problem, argued my stance on why I have such perceptions, and proposed a solution.
As did I – your problem right now is that you chose to have a meltdown and make problems out of nothing.
See, if arguing on the premise of “easy”, it is only proper to assure that the one making claims is arguing other combinations are “easy” whilst setting his basis for comparison at the highest possible difficulty point within reasonable context; for then subjective balance ideology of what constitutes “easier” becomes more objective than any arbitrary location on the scale of ease-of-use relative to potency as studied through metric data and what can be observed on the design-level. My point is, the basis for your insults rests on flawed logic and hypocrisy.
I would answer in German as you’d probably understand as much of my answer as I did of yours. So, why am I a Hypocrite now? Simple English, please.
ETA: I’m still here for a bit, if you want our conversation deleted just say it.
(edited by Jana.6831)
In general: I think toning down SS/buffing OH dagger, unmerging the traits and making some traits baseline or minors, and by that I mean traits all thieves take, would be the way to go to get all thief sets in line again. I thought it would be the either one or other way, but I guess it doesn’t work without altering everything.
We have too few trait slots to match both sets and personal playstyles, using them to restrict one weapon set would further restrict another set or playstyle.
This is something I only found yesterday/today.
Anet could however add another few traits to chose from, but as long as traits are merged there would have to be several copies of the same traits in different combinations to do justice to the different sets and/or playstyles.
Explanation to the latter: “we want D/P to take this trait, so we put this and that in here, and we want D/D to take that in the same bracket, so they get this and that” but some people might want trait x of D/P and y of D/D – so easiest really might be to make no real set specific traits and that means the weapons have to be buffed – I guess there’s no way around it.
ETA²: I do think restricting sets with traits was a smart thing to do but the current design doesn’t leave much room. With that (my idea) D/P still would be the strongest set, except if the traits were redesigned really smartly – but that would likely take too much effort.
(edited by Jana.6831)
So let’s look at the grand scheme of things.
Lets say the vocal minority here who do not understand balance succeed and get DP nerfed to DD levels….what do you think the thief class will be after that? Please tell us what you think will happen from there.
The vocal minority that knows nothing about thief is you – we already had that. If you want to know the “grand scheme of things” read the thread – a lot of great thoughts in here.
And btw: If I were interested in other classes (thus know them) I would probably do the same on their forums as the non existent diversity sucks.
We’ve already established that as a mesmer main I know more about this class than you do. We’ve also established that in terms of overall game balance I’m yet again light years ahead of you.
What you’ve established is that you are better at slinging personal insults b/c you have nothing else.
I just want to see multiple viable weapon sets. Reverting S/D to where it was about 18 months ago, changing P/P #2 to something more useful, and leaving D/P where it is at would improve my mood.
Also, the only pistol trait is still lame.
It takes really good players to make D/P seem powerful (as I’m learning). Most of us are not that good to be honest.
Not really, it’s pretty easy, although I watched “the best” thief in pvp the other day and his timing was pretty godlike. He wouldn’t have that much success with another set – and that is sad and one of the points.
So what your saying is the best thief in PvP could compete against the non best necros, scrappers, eles, mesmers, DHs, etc only because he used DP, AND that means we need to nerf DP instead of buff the other sets? So what would happen if he went up against the best of other classes? Yeah thanks for proving that this thread is a joke.
Btw who is this best thief lol
If you find D/P easy then I congratulate you. I see a lot, I mean a lot, of bad thieves and frankly I’m one of them. The amount of AoE alone makes thief (of any stripe) challenging for me. Having said that, I enjoy the challenge.
D/P is the easiest set thief has got.. If you already know thief then D/P shouldn’t be a problem for you.
If you’re trying to recruit for [Teef], it’s a poor job lass. Getting to know thief is a job in and of itself. But keep on posting, no skin off my back.
And I never said D/P wasn’t the easiest weapon set. That much has proven over and over.
D/D is the easiest weaponset to use mechanically of all the physical melee sets. The problem is anet has made thief’s effectiveness directly tied to mechanical difficulty of the set while the rest of the game’s classes do not abide by this rule.
Now before all the DD users in this thread come for blood let me clarify MECHANICALLY EASY. This is not mean easy to be effective, but says the total effectiveness drops significantly as skill level increases. This is how games are supposed to work btw.
Thank you
So what your saying is the best thief in PvP could compete against the non best necros, scrappers, eles, mesmers, DHs, etc only because he used DP, AND that means we need to nerf DP instead of buff the other sets? So what would happen if he went up against the best of other classes? Yeah thanks for proving that this thread is a joke.
Btw who is this best thief lol
You are a joke as all you want is to stir things up to get attention. I don’t know whats up with all of you today/tonight – was there something in your water?
But like already said by not only me: Read the thread – it’s probably enough if you read the newly merged OP. I don’t think you’ve learned anything about thief in the meantime, so you probably won’t understand what exactly the point of this thread is, so to you it will all be pointless and an utter joke.
My buddy forwarded me a video of a D/P thief and said “you’ll like it, the best pvp thief” I wrote “the best” = I have no clue if he really is but his play was really good. But I forgot his name and since he was D/P anyway I didn’t care too much.
ETA: Please try to get this: D/P has got all utility most if not all thieves want to have. All other sets had to trait for it. These traits have mostly been deleted or put together in a way no one can take the traits they “need” anymore. Even if you buff OH dagger D/P will be the strongest set – and all sets would “taste” alike = no real diversity. Also not every set needs the exact same utility; a S/D thief likely couldn’t care less about blind on CnD, to me it’s crucial, D/P has it on the set anyway. As long D/P is the strongest set (which it likely will always be as they don’t have to trait for their utility) it will be the most played set and get the most attention. And since its the strongest link in our fragile class it was only that when D/P (which is pretty much indestructible) wasn’t viable anymore that anet did something (one can argue whether or not that was the right thing) – but it all only really suited D/P. So what anet should do is delete everything but staff, SB and D/P – if that is your idea of balance, then yes I know nothing about balance.
But : I found that my ideas of putting most of the utility on traits won’t work with the “3 traits to chose from in each bracket” – so I guess this will be just as the botched former trait aquisition thingy – it will be kept like it is until they redesign the game in a year or so – and we won’t hear anything in the meantime. They’ll probably wonder why no one really plays their game anymore, though.
(edited by Jana.6831)
D/D is the easiest weaponset to use mechanically of all the physical melee sets. The problem is anet has made thief’s effectiveness directly tied to mechanical difficulty of the set while the rest of the game’s classes do not abide by this rule.
Now before all the DD users in this thread come for blood let me clarify MECHANICALLY EASY. This is not mean easy to be effective, but says the total effectiveness drops significantly as skill level increases. This is how games are supposed to work btw.
Thank you
I disagree as the range is too short, the animation duration too long, players too mobile and the initative costs too high.
So yes, in a vacuum CnD is really easy.
So what your saying is the best thief in PvP could compete against the non best necros, scrappers, eles, mesmers, DHs, etc only because he used DP, AND that means we need to nerf DP instead of buff the other sets? So what would happen if he went up against the best of other classes? Yeah thanks for proving that this thread is a joke.
Btw who is this best thief lol
You are a joke as all you want is to stir things up to get attention. I don’t know whats up with all of you today/tonight – was there something in your water?
But like already said by not only me: Read the thread – it’s probably enough if you read the newly merged OP. I don’t think you’ve learned anything about thief in the meantime, so you probably won’t understand what exactly the point of this thread is, so to you it will all be pointless and an utter joke.My buddy forwarded me a video of a D/P thief and said “you’ll like it, the best pvp thief” I wrote “the best” = I have no clue if he really is but his play was really good. But I forgot his name and since he was D/P anyway I didn’t care too much.
ETA: Please try to get this: D/P has got all utility most if not all thieves want to have. All other sets had to trait for it. These traits have mostly been deleted or put together in a way no one can take the traits they “need” anymore. Even if you buff OH dagger D/P will be the strongest set – and all sets would “taste” alike = no real diversity. Also not every set needs the exact same utility; a S/D thief likely couldn’t care less about blind on CnD, to me it’s crucial, D/P has it on the set anyway. As long D/P is the strongest set (which it likely will always be as they don’t have to trait for their utility) it will be the most played set and get the most attention. And since its the strongest link in our fragile class it was only that when D/P (which is pretty much indestructible) wasn’t viable anymore that anet did something (one can argue whether or not that was the right thing) – but it all only really suited D/P. So what anet should do is delete everything but staff, SB and D/P – if that is your idea of balance, then yes I know nothing about balance.
But : I found that my ideas of putting most of the utility on traits won’t work with the “3 traits to chose from in each bracket” – so I guess this will be just as the botched former trait aquisition thingy – it will be kept like it is until they redesign the game in a year or so – and we won’t hear anything in the meantime. They’ll probably wonder why no one really plays their game anymore, though.
You started a thread titled “Please nerf D/P”
When we laughed at you you started to really post all your feels thus solidify the salt with in you. You also refused to see the truth.
So how about ya knock this kitten off?
So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.
D/D is the easiest weaponset to use mechanically of all the physical melee sets. The problem is anet has made thief’s effectiveness directly tied to mechanical difficulty of the set while the rest of the game’s classes do not abide by this rule.
Now before all the DD users in this thread come for blood let me clarify MECHANICALLY EASY. This is not mean easy to be effective, but says the total effectiveness drops significantly as skill level increases. This is how games are supposed to work btw.
Thank you
I disagree as the range is too short, the animation duration too long, players too mobile and the initative costs too high.
So yes, in a vacuum CnD is really easy.
Once again you demonstrate the fine art of not comprehending what you’ve just read.
MECHANICAL SKILL
This is in reference to how many keystrokes are needed to play the weaponset. Also it delves into the land of hitting the correct button in response to what you are seeing.
I’m sorry but DD does not require much of that compared to the other sets. In fact I would put SP above DD in terms off mechanical skill.
Yes we all know DD has range issues….but kitten it’s a melee set.
So I’m curious as to which animation on DD is too long?
So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.
You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.
One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.
D/D is the easiest weaponset to use mechanically of all the physical melee sets. The problem is anet has made thief’s effectiveness directly tied to mechanical difficulty of the set while the rest of the game’s classes do not abide by this rule.
Now before all the DD users in this thread come for blood let me clarify MECHANICALLY EASY. This is not mean easy to be effective, but says the total effectiveness drops significantly as skill level increases. This is how games are supposed to work btw.
Thank you
I disagree as the range is too short, the animation duration too long, players too mobile and the initative costs too high.
So yes, in a vacuum CnD is really easy.Once again you demonstrate the fine art of not comprehending what you’ve just read.
MECHANICAL SKILL
This is in reference to how many keystrokes are needed to play the weaponset. Also it delves into the land of hitting the correct button in response to what you are seeing.
I’m sorry but DD does not require much of that compared to the other sets. In fact I would put SP above DD in terms off mechanical skill.
Yes we all know DD has range issues….but kitten it’s a melee set.
So I’m curious as to which animation on DD is too long?
Alright, so I see – you refuse to get the point – thanks for proving it =)
lol @ DeceiverX.8361
Everything anyone is posting here is based on their opinion, their understanding, and their belief. Just like you, none of us speaks for everyone else, that much is a given. So it’s kind of petty to bring up such off-topic when it’s already expressed and implied in this thread that the basis of this thread is based on ones’ opinion, understanding, and belief. If you don’t accept what someone is saying, then that’s just your opinion, understanding, and belief are in conflict with their opinion, understanding and belief.
When it was mentioned that D/D is the most mobile weapon set, I, personally, cannot argue against it because it is true — for me — thus I agree with the statement. In addition, I also find S/D mobile, however, just as has been mentioned, it has a weird unreliable pathing (the skill say it stabs at the back but it doesn’t, for example). You’re arguing that S/D is more mobile, but I have to disagree with you on this one and yes, I do assume that is just your opinion even though you have not expressed it.
So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.
You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.
One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.
And this is relevant how? It doesn’t change the fact that your mechanical skills as a thief is lacking. You’re more than welcome to spar with me on my dueling server so I can show you how mechanically inferior you are. Which then in turn will demonstrate that your opinion holds no worth in class balancing.
so easiest really might be to make no real set specific traits and that means the weapons have to be buffed – I guess there’s no way around it.
From the top of this page…
The traits should be generic and without exclusivity. Trickery has too many exclusive traits that need to become available to every build possible. Then a Thief can pick and choose any trait line and any weapon set without feeling that they are missing something. I like the idea of tradeoff, but the Thief’s choices have become less and less comprehensive over time. Nowadays, the choices are nothing but superficial since in order to make Thief viable, the player needs to take the traits and weapon set that ArenaNet dictates.
So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.
You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.
One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.
And this is relevant how? It doesn’t change the fact that your mechanical skills as a thief is lacking. You’re more than welcome to spar with me on my dueling server so I can show you how mechanically inferior you are. Which then in turn will demonstrate that your opinion holds no worth in class balancing.
You do realize that if you beat her using her D/D build will only solidify the fact that D/D needs buff?
And if you beat her using D/P which will also solidify the fact that D/P needs a nerf?
You cannot possibly believe that the result of dueling will favor to the point you’re trying to make. That’s just dumb.
Ehm, the thing you’re quoting never mentions Lettuce using D/P and Jana using D/D. They’d likely use the same weaponset if they were going to duel to show mechanics. Probably some duels with both on D/D, then some with both on D/P. Then some on P/P to see who’s better at pressing 3. Of course could throw in some D/P vs. D/D duels just for the heck of it.
Not that duels ever proved anything. But not that seems to be a theme of this thread anywho so I suppose a duel would be fitting.
So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.
You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.
One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.
And this is relevant how? It doesn’t change the fact that your mechanical skills as a thief is lacking. You’re more than welcome to spar with me on my dueling server so I can show you how mechanically inferior you are. Which then in turn will demonstrate that your opinion holds no worth in class balancing.
You do realize that if you beat her using her D/D build will only solidify the fact that D/D needs buff?
And if you beat her using D/P which will also solidify the fact that D/P needs a nerf?
You cannot possibly believe that the result of dueling will favor to the point you’re trying to make. That’s just dumb.
I main s/d. Enough said. Love how no one evens mentions sd
So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.
You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.
One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.
And this is relevant how? It doesn’t change the fact that your mechanical skills as a thief is lacking. You’re more than welcome to spar with me on my dueling server so I can show you how mechanically inferior you are. Which then in turn will demonstrate that your opinion holds no worth in class balancing.
You do realize that if you beat her using her D/D build will only solidify the fact that D/D needs buff?
And if you beat her using D/P which will also solidify the fact that D/P needs a nerf?
You cannot possibly believe that the result of dueling will favor to the point you’re trying to make. That’s just dumb.
I main s/d. Enough said. Love how no one evens mentions sd
Are you sure no one?
And even with that weapon set, even if you use P/P, the result will still not favor you.
Ehm, the thing you’re quoting never mentions Lettuce using D/P and Jana using D/D. They’d likely use the same weaponset if they were going to duel to show mechanics. Probably some duels with both on D/D, then some with both on D/P. Then some on P/P to see who’s better at pressing 3. Of course could throw in some D/P vs. D/D duels just for the heck of it.
Not that duels ever proved anything. But not that seems to be a theme of this thread anywho so I suppose a duel would be fitting.
Did you miss the word “if”? Might slow down in reading before you react.
So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.
You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.
One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.
And this is relevant how? It doesn’t change the fact that your mechanical skills as a thief is lacking. You’re more than welcome to spar with me on my dueling server so I can show you how mechanically inferior you are. Which then in turn will demonstrate that your opinion holds no worth in class balancing.
You do realize that if you beat her using her D/D build will only solidify the fact that D/D needs buff?
And if you beat her using D/P which will also solidify the fact that D/P needs a nerf?
You cannot possibly believe that the result of dueling will favor to the point you’re trying to make. That’s just dumb.
I main s/d. Enough said. Love how no one evens mentions sd
Are you sure no one?
And even with that weapon set, even if you use P/P, the result will still not favor you.
What? You got me confused now. Do you even English? What are we even talking about now? Do you even know what you’re talking about now? I think you got lost in your own delusions just now.
Pretty sure I said I was using s/d. I’ll even duel Jana using sd vs her dp if she wants. She could use the handicap. You as well.
(edited by Lettuce.2945)
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