Guild Wars 2

Jana.6831:

Azukas.1426:

SD

DP was later and for certain reasons

You do know that I’ve been around for 2 years, right?
P/D actually became the substitute for “D/D” (D/P was the “meta” before december ’13, not D/D). Then sizer brought S/D, then S/D was nerfed, then D/P became the meta once again.
Some history for you =)

ETA: Btw; we played what we liked not what was the most powerful – and before June that was still halfway possible although S/D had been nerfed too much. Still every fight would’ve been easier with D/P or P/D – but not everybody wants that – if I wanted easy fights I would’ve played cele ele

SD initially was used not with acro and evades but for the daze attack from stealth + insta shadow return.

Your problem with DP is based off your fight 1v1 with them. This is wrong and your opinion needs to be disregarded

Nerfing an already sub-par set won’t make another trash set any better.

I don’t know if I should laugh or facepalm now.

You are talking about making the thief class more fun by nerfing DP set? I’m not sure if you are aware of this, but thiefs have been nerfed these few years.

You can’t have fun as a thief if a set of weapons is not viable anymore to play with.

The way I see it is that you just want DP thiefs be nerfed, just so you are able to have “fun” against them while being a DD thief yourself. Ever considered what would happen if DP gets nerfed?

I really love to play DD, but this set up has just been made into trash with all the nerfs.
You shouldn’t advocate to nerf the thief class like this, you rather should advocate for buffs.

I hope I made a bit of sense with my comment

Reem.3578:

Why not just buff/rework d/d?

^

I’d be nice to bring the really strong sets down to match the sets that feel most balanced but there are just too many factors in that. You have to kinda do both really, bring the strong sets down a little and bring the weaker/underperforming sets up a little that way things don’t change too suddenly and mess with people’s minds (like the nerfs to thief sword or dagger buffs to ele, way to drastic for one patch).

Reworking Death Blossom, Dancing Dagger and Cloak and Dagger is what we need. Dagger offhand is underwhelming in general so it won disturb balance.

Shadow Shot has blind + gap closer + damage. So for Death Blossom I suggest it gets the bleeds removed and brought back in the form of direct damage. Then buff the damage and give it a short immobilize to bring it back to the game.

Sry jana, but if those 8k hours on thief were played in wvw, they hardly count. But to get back you problem, why do you compare d/p skills directly with d/d? Why should you get blind on d/d set? Heck, i can put this the other way around: d/p doesn’t get and evade, no mid-range attack with decent damage, no cripple application, no “instant” stealth. So actually nerf d/d plox.

Divided by zero.9370:

Sry jana, but if those 8k hours on thief were played in wvw, they hardly count. But to get back you problem, why do you compare d/p skills directly with d/d? Why should you get blind on d/d set? Heck, i can put this the other way around: d/p doesn’t get and evade, no mid-range attack with decent damage, no cripple application, no “instant” stealth. So actually nerf d/d plox.

Blind on d/d is closely related to both CiS and SRej needed to effectively play p/d and d/d ever since those two traits were put in the same tier those sets have had a greater obvious decline in use. That’s why us users of it wanted blind on Cloak and Dagger or just CiS back at master.

A change that wouldn’t buff d/p unlike MH dagger AA buff. Not that changing its tier made sense in the first place Karl or whoever taught it was a good idea.

Let’s nerf best designed weapon set for the sake of weaker one? Because thieves clearly need more nerfs? Are you trying to force EVERYONE into staff?
Ask for d/d buffs, suggest rework. There is way to make that set more interesting w/o butchering other sets or make them too strong.

Don’t feed the obvious troll.

Cynz.9437:

Let’s nerf best designed weapon set for the sake of weaker one? Because thieves clearly need more nerfs? Are you trying to force EVERYONE into staff?
Ask for d/d buffs, suggest rework. There is way to make that set more interesting w/o butchering other sets or make them too strong.

So, you have got 5 children and all of them need to be ideal weight – some are underweight and the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar, but all have to get the same food (on top of that).
You can either nerf one and then buff all or you can only have one that shines while all other are subpar – that’s my reasoning for this thread.

ETA: By saying: “No, lets not nerf our only viable set!” we remain having only one viable set as the others have to get their stuff from traits to which D/P also has got access to. Thief is pretty much dead anyway and I guess everybody knows, so why not kill it completely and start new?

“the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar” lol

anyway, the only real thing they can do is buff #3 because making buff’s to /d would mean buffing s/d and p/d which both still better then d/d. it is really hard to think of anything to help d/d in the weapon set, ad again buffing certain traits will again buff p/d and s/d. s/d is already getting a nice buff and we don’t want it too powerful for the sake of doing buff d/d. both weapons are really good alone but kinda crap together, just like p/p. ofc they both have their gimmic styles, unload spam or deathblossom spam.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Let’s nerf best designed weapon set for the sake of weaker one? Because thieves clearly need more nerfs? Are you trying to force EVERYONE into staff?
Ask for d/d buffs, suggest rework. There is way to make that set more interesting w/o butchering other sets or make them too strong.

So, you have got 5 children and all of them need to be ideal weight – some are underweight and the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar, but all have to get the same food (on top of that).
You can either nerf one and then buff all or you can only have one that shines while all other are subpar – that’s my reasoning for this thread.

Nerfing the child is like saying, starve the overweight child so in his moment of malnourishment the rest of the children will be well nourished while they all reach the ideal weight. That’s just cruel and perhaps a bad analogy. :/

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nerfing the child is like saying, starve the overweight child so in his moment of malnourishment the rest of the children will be well nourished while they all reach the ideal weight. That’s just cruel and perhaps a bad analogy. :/

You should starve the overweight child but that might backfire IRL – my parents tried that with me – but in the end I guess you guys got what I meant – although my analogy was bad.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

“the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar” lol

anyway, the only real thing they can do is buff #3 because making buff’s to /d would mean buffing s/d and p/d which both still better then d/d. it is really hard to think of anything to help d/d in the weapon set, ad again buffing certain traits will again buff p/d and s/d. s/d is already getting a nice buff and we don’t want it too powerful for the sake of doing buff d/d. both weapons are really good alone but kinda crap together, just like p/p. ofc they both have their gimmic styles, unload spam or deathblossom spam.

I really think nerfing shadow shot is the best, easiest and cleanest way – D/P would likely still be good. Btw D/P is the kittenroach of thief – it survives nearly everything because the utility is so good. All other builds were deliberately nerfed in June, granted (pistol for pistol mainhand, condis thief has got access to, CnD dmg reduction, butchering of acro, butchering of SA – D/P is the set that can go by without SA the easiest. I’m not talking about D/D in this thread – for once – I’m talking about all thief builds (minus Elite).
All possible builds share some trait lines andbuffing them for the sake of this set make the other set possible OP – and D/P is “the other set” in most cases.
How acro and daredevil will work out with S/D after the patch is yet to be seen, but the problems D/P causes still remain.

Jana.6831:

D/P is the set that can go by without SA the easiest.

Only because of Daredevil’s Bounding Dodge and Escapist’s Absolution. In the case where BD and EA aren’t used, I would disagree with this statement entirely on the basis that D/P has initiative management concerns for fights lasting much longer than a few seconds, or must use Rejuv to regain his initiative. The thing is, Shadow Shot can so easily offset this such that I do not think it is even necessary for the thief to use stealth or backstab, for with the same initiative cost, a D/P player can do more damage more reliably by doubling-up Shadow Shot and then using Steal for HT for free stealth to either disengage or backstab, pumping out substantially more damage in the same unit of time for what is still not much initiative.

They did even before June and replaced SA with trickery – but yeah, they likely took SE. Has initiative regen always been in SA? I really should’ve made screenshots of the old traits.

Jana.6831:

They did even before June and replaced SA with trickery – but yeah, they likely took SE. Has initiative regen always been in SA? I really should’ve made screenshots of the old traits.

The init regen on SR was added during the shuffling as a compensation to the deletion of the trait that grants initiative on stealth (can’t remember the name. ArenaNet is erasing my memory of it.)

Edit: Infusion of Shadow — I remember!

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jana.6831:

They did even before June and replaced SA with trickery – but yeah, they likely took SE. Has initiative regen always been in SA? I really should’ve made screenshots of the old traits.

The init regen on SR was added during the shuffling as a compensation to the deletion of the trait that grants initiative on stealth (can’t remember the name. ArenaNet is erasing my memory of it.)

Yeah, I meant if that trait was in the Shadow Arts line. I never used it, that’s why I’m asking.

ETA:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow

yes, it was.

Jana.6831:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

“the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar” lol

anyway, the only real thing they can do is buff #3 because making buff’s to /d would mean buffing s/d and p/d which both still better then d/d. it is really hard to think of anything to help d/d in the weapon set, ad again buffing certain traits will again buff p/d and s/d. s/d is already getting a nice buff and we don’t want it too powerful for the sake of doing buff d/d. both weapons are really good alone but kinda crap together, just like p/p. ofc they both have their gimmic styles, unload spam or deathblossom spam.

I really think nerfing shadow shot is the best, easiest and cleanest way – D/P would likely still be good. Btw D/P is the kittenroach of thief – it survives nearly everything because the utility is so good. All other builds were deliberately nerfed in June, granted (pistol for pistol mainhand, condis thief has got access to, CnD dmg reduction, butchering of acro, butchering of SA – D/P is the set that can go by without SA the easiest. I’m not talking about D/D in this thread – for once – I’m talking about all thief builds (minus Elite).
All possible builds share some trait lines andbuffing them for the sake of this set make the other set possible OP – and D/P is “the other set” in most cases.
How acro and daredevil will work out with S/D after the patch is yet to be seen, but the problems D/P causes still remain.

What you think and what reality is are 2 different things.

I’m pretty sure I know more about thief than you do being a mesmer main.

Delete dble post

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Let’s nerf best designed weapon set for the sake of weaker one? Because thieves clearly need more nerfs? Are you trying to force EVERYONE into staff?
Ask for d/d buffs, suggest rework. There is way to make that set more interesting w/o butchering other sets or make them too strong.

So, you have got 5 children and all of them need to be ideal weight – some are underweight and the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar, but all have to get the same food (on top of that).
You can either nerf one and then buff all or you can only have one that shines while all other are subpar – that’s my reasoning for this thread.

ETA: By saying: “No, lets not nerf our only viable set!” we remain having only one viable set as the others have to get their stuff from traits to which D/P also has got access to. Thief is pretty much dead anyway and I guess everybody knows, so why not kill it completely and start new?

Are you seriously implying d/p is fat kid with chocolate bar? Really, focus your hate crusade again other classes and for d/d and not against fellow thieves. Nerfing d/p won’t change anything for your beloved d/d it will just force everyone into staff or simply make very few thieves that left to completely quit this class/game.

If you actually think devs would suddenly get an urge to buff d/d because of d/p nerf you really don’t know them well.

Take s/d as an example in its glory day. It got nerfed couple times, you think it helped acro line or sp? No. We all know what happend afterwards.

I also love how you forget about p/d that was probably main reason why SA and any stealth builds got nerfed on first place. WvW dp wasn’t killing anyone, pvp dp was and still is very team dependent. Frankly, weapon sets don’t matter, devs literary have no clue what they are doing most of the time (i had very interesting convo with some top player that has skype contact to devs).

I do not understand you, i do not understand why would you join “nerf thief” train when we are least desired profession in all game modes (arguably second least desired after wars in pvp).

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Let’s nerf best designed weapon set for the sake of weaker one? Because thieves clearly need more nerfs? Are you trying to force EVERYONE into staff?
Ask for d/d buffs, suggest rework. There is way to make that set more interesting w/o butchering other sets or make them too strong.

So, you have got 5 children and all of them need to be ideal weight – some are underweight and the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar, but all have to get the same food (on top of that).
You can either nerf one and then buff all or you can only have one that shines while all other are subpar – that’s my reasoning for this thread.

ETA: By saying: “No, lets not nerf our only viable set!” we remain having only one viable set as the others have to get their stuff from traits to which D/P also has got access to. Thief is pretty much dead anyway and I guess everybody knows, so why not kill it completely and start new?

Are you seriously implying d/p is fat kid with chocolate bar? Really, focus your hate crusade again other classes and for d/d and not against fellow thieves. Nerfing d/p won’t change anything for your beloved d/d it will just force everyone into staff or simply make very few thieves that left to completely quit this class/game.

If you actually think devs would suddenly get an urge to buff d/d because of d/p nerf you really don’t know them well.

Take s/d as an example in its glory day. It got nerfed couple times, you think it helped acro line or sp? No. We all know what happend afterwards.

Yeah it was a bad analogy for her. A better analogy is that D/P is this big tree overshadowing the D/D sapling longing for sunlight. In order for the D/D sampling to grow, D/P needs to have its branches trimmed here and there to allow some sunshine for the D/D sapling. This doesn’t mean to cut down the D/P tree by its trunk or cut off all its branches and leaves, but to simply trim (nerf) it so it share the sunlight with other samplings it overshadowing.

EDIT: too much typos

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Let’s nerf best designed weapon set for the sake of weaker one? Because thieves clearly need more nerfs? Are you trying to force EVERYONE into staff?
Ask for d/d buffs, suggest rework. There is way to make that set more interesting w/o butchering other sets or make them too strong.

So, you have got 5 children and all of them need to be ideal weight – some are underweight and the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar, but all have to get the same food (on top of that).
You can either nerf one and then buff all or you can only have one that shines while all other are subpar – that’s my reasoning for this thread.

ETA: By saying: “No, lets not nerf our only viable set!” we remain having only one viable set as the others have to get their stuff from traits to which D/P also has got access to. Thief is pretty much dead anyway and I guess everybody knows, so why not kill it completely and start new?

Are you seriously implying d/p is fat kid with chocolate bar? Really, focus your hate crusade again other classes and for d/d and not against fellow thieves. Nerfing d/p won’t change anything for your beloved d/d it will just force everyone into staff or simply make very few thieves that left to completely quit this class/game.

If you actually think devs would suddenly get an urge to buff d/d because of d/p nerf you really don’t know them well.

Take s/d as an example in its glory day. It got nerfed couple times, you think it helped acro line or sp? No. We all know what happend afterwards.

Yeah it was a bad analogy for her. A better analogy is that D/P is this big tree overshadowing the D/D sapling longing for sunlight. In order for the D/D sampling to grow, D/P needs to have its branches trimmed here and there to allow some sunshine for the D/D sapling. This doesn’t mean to cut down the D/P tree by its trunk or cut off all its branches and leaves, but to simply trim (nerf) it so it share the sunlight with other samplings it overshadowing.

EDIT: too much typos

Rush has an answer for your analogy.

Lyrics

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Let’s nerf best designed weapon set for the sake of weaker one? Because thieves clearly need more nerfs? Are you trying to force EVERYONE into staff?
Ask for d/d buffs, suggest rework. There is way to make that set more interesting w/o butchering other sets or make them too strong.

So, you have got 5 children and all of them need to be ideal weight – some are underweight and the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar, but all have to get the same food (on top of that).
You can either nerf one and then buff all or you can only have one that shines while all other are subpar – that’s my reasoning for this thread.

ETA: By saying: “No, lets not nerf our only viable set!” we remain having only one viable set as the others have to get their stuff from traits to which D/P also has got access to. Thief is pretty much dead anyway and I guess everybody knows, so why not kill it completely and start new?

Are you seriously implying d/p is fat kid with chocolate bar? Really, focus your hate crusade again other classes and for d/d and not against fellow thieves. Nerfing d/p won’t change anything for your beloved d/d it will just force everyone into staff or simply make very few thieves that left to completely quit this class/game.

If you actually think devs would suddenly get an urge to buff d/d because of d/p nerf you really don’t know them well.

Take s/d as an example in its glory day. It got nerfed couple times, you think it helped acro line or sp? No. We all know what happend afterwards.

Yeah it was a bad analogy for her. A better analogy is that D/P is this big tree overshadowing the D/D sapling longing for sunlight. In order for the D/D sampling to grow, D/P needs to have its branches trimmed here and there to allow some sunshine for the D/D sapling. This doesn’t mean to cut down the D/P tree by its trunk or cut off all its branches and leaves, but to simply trim (nerf) it so it share the sunlight with other samplings it overshadowing.

EDIT: too much typos

Yeah let’s cut some branches from the tree that is already to fall down because there is entire industry (sup scrapper) growing nearbly.

Tbh idk why i even bother talking to a mob that wants to kill own class completely in some delusional idea that it would help. I been playing BnS past few days and it was most fun i ever had playing an assassin class. GW2 can go in the trash can for all i care.

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Let’s nerf best designed weapon set for the sake of weaker one? Because thieves clearly need more nerfs? Are you trying to force EVERYONE into staff?
Ask for d/d buffs, suggest rework. There is way to make that set more interesting w/o butchering other sets or make them too strong.

So, you have got 5 children and all of them need to be ideal weight – some are underweight and the one who needs to lose weight has got a chocolate bar, but all have to get the same food (on top of that).
You can either nerf one and then buff all or you can only have one that shines while all other are subpar – that’s my reasoning for this thread.

ETA: By saying: “No, lets not nerf our only viable set!” we remain having only one viable set as the others have to get their stuff from traits to which D/P also has got access to. Thief is pretty much dead anyway and I guess everybody knows, so why not kill it completely and start new?

Are you seriously implying d/p is fat kid with chocolate bar? Really, focus your hate crusade again other classes and for d/d and not against fellow thieves. Nerfing d/p won’t change anything for your beloved d/d it will just force everyone into staff or simply make very few thieves that left to completely quit this class/game.

If you actually think devs would suddenly get an urge to buff d/d because of d/p nerf you really don’t know them well.

Take s/d as an example in its glory day. It got nerfed couple times, you think it helped acro line or sp? No. We all know what happend afterwards.

Yeah it was a bad analogy for her. A better analogy is that D/P is this big tree overshadowing the D/D sapling longing for sunlight. In order for the D/D sampling to grow, D/P needs to have its branches trimmed here and there to allow some sunshine for the D/D sapling. This doesn’t mean to cut down the D/P tree by its trunk or cut off all its branches and leaves, but to simply trim (nerf) it so it share the sunlight with other samplings it overshadowing.

EDIT: too much typos

Yeah let’s cut some branches from the tree that is already to fall down because there is entire industry (sup scrapper) growing nearbly.

Tbh idk why i even bother talking to a mob that wants to kill own class completely in some delusional idea that it would help. I been playing BnS past few days and it was most fun i ever had playing an assassin class. GW2 can go in the trash can for all i care.

don’t feed the trolls it’s what they want you to do :p

Cynz.9437:

Are you seriously implying d/p is fat kid with chocolate bar? Really, focus your hate crusade again other classes and for d/d and not against fellow thieves. Nerfing d/p won’t change anything for your beloved d/d it will just force everyone into staff or simply make very few thieves that left to completely quit this class/game.

If you actually think devs would suddenly get an urge to buff d/d because of d/p nerf you really don’t know them well.

Take s/d as an example in its glory day. It got nerfed couple times, you think it helped acro line or sp? No. We all know what happend afterwards.

I also love how you forget about p/d that was probably main reason why SA and any stealth builds got nerfed on first place. WvW dp wasn’t killing anyone, pvp dp was and still is very team dependent. Frankly, weapon sets don’t matter, devs literary have no clue what they are doing most of the time (i had very interesting convo with some top player that has skype contact to devs).

I do not understand you, i do not understand why would you join “nerf thief” train when we are least desired profession in all game modes (arguably second least desired after wars in pvp).

I kind of expected you to understand this thread – but you don’t.
Ok.
D/P is the faceroll mode thief – the easiest way to play thief. Nothing ins SA was nerfed from when I started to June this year. P/Ds rise was after the Ferocity Patch 4/15th 2014 – so I don’t think anything was nerfed because of that set as it wasn’t as popular as D/P long before that.
D/P is holding all other vanilla thief builds (minus probably S/D after January 26th) back.

And believe me in wvw the only thieves who were still around were D/P after S/D was nerfed into the ground (ocassionally a P/D thief but that was rare). Solo roamers. But they also were popular in focus groups, yes.
I hope some day you’ll get my point.

Azukas.1426:

What you think and what reality is are 2 different things.

I’m pretty sure I know more about thief than you do being a mesmer main.

That’s likely, but you still know nothing about thief. So I don’t get your attitude in this thread. Either be constructive or leave.

Jana.6831:

Azukas.1426:

What you think and what reality is are 2 different things.

I’m pretty sure I know more about thief than you do being a mesmer main.

That’s likely, but you still know nothing about thief. So I don’t get your attitude in this thread. Either be constructive or leave.

This entire thread is not constructive but destructive in nature.

Azukas.1426:

This entire thread is not constructive but destructive in nature.

Not meant this way – you would’ve noticed if you read some of it besides the title.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Are you seriously implying d/p is fat kid with chocolate bar? Really, focus your hate crusade again other classes and for d/d and not against fellow thieves. Nerfing d/p won’t change anything for your beloved d/d it will just force everyone into staff or simply make very few thieves that left to completely quit this class/game.

If you actually think devs would suddenly get an urge to buff d/d because of d/p nerf you really don’t know them well.

Take s/d as an example in its glory day. It got nerfed couple times, you think it helped acro line or sp? No. We all know what happend afterwards.

I also love how you forget about p/d that was probably main reason why SA and any stealth builds got nerfed on first place. WvW dp wasn’t killing anyone, pvp dp was and still is very team dependent. Frankly, weapon sets don’t matter, devs literary have no clue what they are doing most of the time (i had very interesting convo with some top player that has skype contact to devs).

I do not understand you, i do not understand why would you join “nerf thief” train when we are least desired profession in all game modes (arguably second least desired after wars in pvp).

I kind of expected you to understand this thread – but you don’t.
Ok.
D/P is the faceroll mode thief – the easiest way to play thief. Nothing ins SA was nerfed from when I started to June this year. P/Ds rise was after the Ferocity Patch 4/15th 2014 – so I don’t think anything was nerfed because of that set as it wasn’t as popular as D/P long before that.
D/P is holding all other vanilla thief builds (minus probably S/D after January 26th) back.

And believe me in wvw the only thieves who were still around were D/P after S/D was nerfed into the ground (ocassionally a P/D thief but that was rare). Solo roamers. But they also were popular in focus groups, yes.
I hope some day you’ll get my point.

D/P isn’t holding the other sets back, X/D is holding the other sets back.

First lets look at what D/P has:
Dagger autos for poison and endurance
Heartseeker for finishing
Shadowshot for blind, damage, and gap closing
Headshot for interrupts
BPS for blind and stealth

Staff, the second best in the running has:
Decent autos with reflect and vuln
Whirling charge with decent spike + weakness when combined with steal
A decent evasion and immobilize cure
AoE blind
Aoe spike damage

S/D is in the mediocre territory with:
Decent autos with the last strike being hard to land
A gap closer/opener with an immobilize and condi cleanse
An evasion and mediocre boon steal
A mediocre dancing dagger
A mediocre CnD
Sword main and dual attaks can make up for the shortcomings or dagger OH. The set was severely weakened when acro was nerfed because the line also helped supplement the weak offhand dagger. It didn’t come back so much in popularity with daredevil because staff and D/D worked better with the line offering both stealth and evasive styles of play without suffering from X/D’s drawbacks.

D/D is in a bad spot because the autoattack and heartseeker can’t make up for the lack of utility and damage of dagger offhand. The set doesn’t synergize well with itself. It’s not D/P that’s hurting it or keeping it from excelling, but rather the weak offhand dagger skills. Offhand dagger needs to be given utility to make up for this.

Jana.6831:

Azukas.1426:

What you think and what reality is are 2 different things.

I’m pretty sure I know more about thief than you do being a mesmer main.

That’s likely, but you still know nothing about thief. So I don’t get your attitude in this thread. Either be constructive or leave.

So far that mesmer invader has made more sense than you, while your reaction to him is l2p/make thief or leave.

Maugetarr.6823:

D/P isn’t holding the other sets back, X/D is holding the other sets back.

Offhand dagger needs to be given utility to make up for this.

True – but – one of my points: A thief can’t be op – no class or build should be. D/P itself is borderline OP – all other vanilla sets get most of their utility form traits. If you make traits strong D/P can take them as well thus becomes potentionally OP.
The other point: D/P is that “balanced” in itself that it’s basically indestructable when the devs mess our class up – so still thieves around = thief is fine.

You can buff offhand dagger but it is for 3 sets, so it’s likely that it doesn’t really match all their playstyles, so traits would be better. But I don’t object buffing offhand dagger – my points for this thread are listed above.

Jana, do you actually understand that d/d was never ment to be all rounder weapon set like dp?
Once again, dp is best designed weapon set for thief: it has opportunity costs, fair ini costs and is very situational. Example: yeah i can go in stealth with bp+hs but it will leave me w/o ini for daze spam. I can use ini to interrupt rezzes or important CDs but it does no dmg and costs a lot of ini. I can spam HS for mobility but it leaves me w/o ini for going stealth etc. DP truly taught me how to manage ini and pay attention to my enemies.

Nerfing dp won’t change anything. D/D is GS from warriors basically: it does big dmg, it has some mobility and even cripple but that’s it. It is pure dps set and will remain being it. Also i dare you to claim that d5 dmg got nerfed thanks to dp….

Also side note: game is not balanced around wvw and never will be. If you think dp is OP and brain dead, please go do some matches vs pro league players and tell me how it went~

You think completely destroying another thief weapon set would get dd buffed? Think again. 3 years of Anet balancing should have taught you something~

You think they would also agree to nerf staff (because frankly it is what everyone would switch to, if they didn’t already)? Keep dreaming. Anet wants to sell HoT, only with HoT you can have access to DrD. They won’t touch that.

Cynz.9437:

Jana, do you actually understand that d/d was never ment to be all rounder weapon set like dp?
Once again, dp is best designed weapon set for thief: it has opportunity costs, fair ini costs and is very situational. Example: yeah i can go in stealth with bp+hs but it will leave me w/o ini for daze spam. I can use ini to interrupt rezzes or important CDs but it does no dmg and costs a lot of ini. I can spam HS for mobility but it leaves me w/o ini for going stealth etc. DP truly taught me how to manage ini and pay attention to my enemies.

Nerfing dp won’t change anything. D/D is GS from warriors basically: it does big dmg, it has some mobility and even cripple but that’s it. It is pure dps set and will remain being it. Also i dare you to claim that d5 dmg got nerfed thanks to dp….

Also side note: game is not balanced around wvw and never will be. If you think dp is OP and brain dead, please go do some matches vs pro league players and tell me how it went~

You think completely destroying another thief weapon set would get dd buffed? Think again. 3 years of Anet balancing should have taught you something~

You think they would also agree to nerf staff (because frankly it is what everyone would switch to, if they didn’t already)? Keep dreaming. Anet wants to sell HoT, only with HoT you can have access to DrD. They won’t touch that.

We don’t have a trinity – every weaponset should be viable and has been before June (more or less). If you break everything D/P has and is down – you’ll find that it’s the only weaponset thieves have got as everything else is subpar in every situation. And that’s my issue.
Headshot does some damage, but the most important skill would be shadow shot actually and it would be nice if that skill would be brought on par with the rest of the thief builds – be it by nerfing it (easiest solution) or by buffing every other set.
D/D does less damage than D/P.
And once again: I want the devs to break everything so they can buff everything afterwards and not leave themselves in the illusion that thief is fine because they have got one weaponset.

I bet that what anet meant was “we don’t balance zerg fights” – which is understandable – but all pvp balance used to come to us until they changed the rules – so wvw is completely unbalanced and people aren’t really playing that game mode anymore.

I’ll try again:
D/P is that strong that it can’t be destroyed by the bad descisions the devs make. As long as people still play D/P, which they have since I started thief 2 years ago, it will seem as if the class is fine, which it isn’t. D/P in itself is that strong that all traits that would make another weaponset okayish is making it borderline OP

So, if they don’t plan on buffing P/D or D/D, they should tone down D/P – it still has got the utility which it should have, but I don’t get why it’s rewarded better.

Have you done pvp lately? 99% of thieves i run into play staff….. or ironically… d/d, the condi troll build.

D/P can be destroyed like any other weapon set (see sword 2, dagger 5 change). Devs think thieves are fine because they still can fill their doomed +1 role thanks to sb5.

What is so borderline OP about dp and trait? Give me example~

You want devs to completely break class in hope they buff it? Oh, that is great idea. Given their speed of balancing (min 6 months) by the time new patch goes live all thieves will quit game. “I can’t play d/d in wvw – i want everyone quit the game”.

How is it a troll build?
I’m speaking of wvw – haven’t seen any staff thief (enemy or ally) for about 2 months.
I’d say give the meta a bit more time to see if people stick to their builds – but the meta is about to end.

Example: Shadow rejuvenation: DP has got access to stealth “on demand” they can even stealth longer than a X/D thief. They don’t really need the regen as they don’t have to use SR to stealth for longer – thus there’s no gigantic red cirle to mark their position. Since the three traitline merge the only thing that restricted them = initative fell away.

Unfortunately I broke my PC – so it will take a bit until I can comfortably look up the rest of the traits.

Yeah, I want them to break their own game for good.

There was a short time between the ferocity patch and until sword 3 of S/D was nerfed where we had P/D, D/P and S/D thieves – that was the most fun I had in this game. They broke some other stuff in the meantime, but I hope they’ll some day understand that it’s the “little things” that probably matter the most. Like having 3 viable thief builds (would be now 4 if they were viable)

@ Jana

No you are wrong.

SA trait line got nerfed hard esp for d/d.

Because before the patch we could dish in both shadow rejuv and cloak in shadow (blind upon invi) along with SE clearing conditions like immobile and cripple and better time interval and also shadow protector as minor? trait which gives good sustain with shadow rejuv.
Also dont forget stats like toughness/armor and vitality was deleted and doesnt add up from traits like before which made thief weaker.

and no d/p shouldnt get nerfed. We just need other weapon sets like d/d p/d to get buffed to be competible.

@ MidoriMarch:

So, and where have I been wrong?
No one was playing D/D for two years before June, so I guess it was nerfed because of reasons, but not because of D/D.
CnD was nerfed because of D/D yes.. because of reasons yet again.

Then tell me how the buffs to that sets should work.

@Jana

CnD was never nerfed..
its the CiS trait that moved to gm trait made d/d lose the blind

CnD was nerfed in June – the damage was reduced by a fourth or third.

Jana.6831:

CnD was nerfed in June – the damage was reduced by a fourth or third.

/Edit. Just remembered. Yes u are right cnd got nerfed but that is not the reason why d/d is bad..

MidoriMarch.8067:

Jana.6831:

CnD was nerfed in June – the damage was reduced by a fourth or third.

thats only in pvp not in wvw/pve.

Just read the patch notes =)

Please stop giving the devs’ stupid ideas. I agree with you that D/D needs help (remember, dd now is the acronym for daredevil :P ). But you don’t go gutting the last straw power thieves have just to get a look at X/D.

Because that is where the problem lies, the offhand pistol makes up for some of the squishy bits that are thieves. Which is fine and fair, even slightly under balanced(when looking at other classes, not just thieves. Since it requires a kitten ton of ini).

The problem lies within the way D/D is put together. The #3 is now being used for conditions. Where the rest of the set is power based, with a nerved #4 and #5, which was done partly to reduce S/D builds. So you cannot change up these skills without making the other styles stronger, which might put them over the top.

Your attempt to get D/D looked at is something I’m sure all thieves could rally behind. But gutting D/P for the sake of getting looked at is insane. Especially, as mentioned by others, with the time it usually takes arenanet to look at weak classes.

My issue isn’t only D/D – you guys just think it is because it’s in my signature – you’re better than that =)

ETA: Alright, after this I rest my case and leave you guys to play:
Whatever possible build you make: It will always be stronger with D/P – even P/D used it as second set. All thieves I see in wvw are D/P DrD.

I have said everything else in a million posts, if you go away from your love of D/P you might find that there’s some truth behind it.

@Jana: I think the premise of your argument is wrong. While D/P may be the most cohesive and strongest thief weaponset, that doesn’t mean that it’s strong relative to other classes. Even if you haven’t played lately, just look through all of the recent threads post HoT mentioning how weak thief is, including D/P. Pre-HoT D/P was really only fulfilling the +1 and decap role.

So I’ll put it this way: D/P only seems strong because the other weapon sets are so weak. Those can be adjusted independently through rebalancing weapon skills so as no to simultaneously boost D/P.

I already said that =) Even in the OP as far as I can remember.

Let me put it this way:
As long as D/P is unchanged all other thief weaponsets will remain weak in comparison

Unless anet becomes genius and manages to buff all other weaponsets according their style – which is pretty hard. It’d be easier to nerf D/P the weaponset and buff thief the traits – so that D/P have to sacrifice for all the utility they get.

Jana.6831:

How is it a troll build?
I’m speaking of wvw – haven’t seen any staff thief (enemy or ally) for about 2 months.
I’d say give the meta a bit more time to see if people stick to their builds – but the meta is about to end.

Example: Shadow rejuvenation: DP has got access to stealth “on demand” they can even stealth longer than a X/D thief. They don’t really need the regen as they don’t have to use SR to stealth for longer – thus there’s no gigantic red cirle to mark their position. Since the three traitline merge the only thing that restricted them = initative fell away.

Unfortunately I broke my PC – so it will take a bit until I can comfortably look up the rest of the traits.

Daily reminder: nobody (at least as far balancing goes) gives a flying kitten about wvw. There are too many variables to even attempt to balance anything there. WvW IS IRRELEVANT. DEAL WITH IT. I dealt with it – i went to pvp and realized how much more fun and skillful it is compared to theater in wvw.

I am speaking from pvp perspective – where balance actually happens and staff and d/d condi are actually quite popular among thieves there.

See this is where your problem is: you do not understand how things work in pvp. You stealth on point, you lose it. You stealth somewhere nearbly point, it gets bombed like mad by all possible aoe. There will be ALWAYS point that will be spammed by aoe if thief is nerably, you do not have freedom of space there not to mention every rev and scrapper can apply revealed on you.

As far ini goes, trickery was, is and probably always will be must have in pvp due to boon strip and ini, UNDEPENDENT weither you run dp, sd or staff. SA was actually almost never used there until last year when ironically DA got a buff, celestial amy got added and condi bruisers became a thing forcing thieves into SE.

CnD got nerfed? Well thank your signet DD and cancer PD brothers for it.

Also your whole argument dies due to fact that
1. dd was a must go weapon for first year (and dp was actually not nerfed yet back then)… i think we all should thank dd for massive hate and nerfing thieves received for past 3 years~
2. sd and sp meta existed yet had no effect on dd or PP

Devs don’t nerf things because they just wanna do it and class will still have 1 weapon set. They nerf things because
1. they have no idea
2. they listen to crying mob (prime example: BP nerf because some hambow wars were unable to do 1 step out of the tiny BP circle)

Honestly, i wouldn’t be surprised if DD gets nerfed next months because i see a lot of QQ from players about some condi dd thief trolling them all match with evades.

Jana.6831:

I already said that =) Even in the OP as far as I can remember.

Let me put it this way:
As long as D/P is unchanged all other thief weaponsets will remain weak in comparison

Unless anet becomes genius and manages to buff all other weaponsets according their style – which is pretty hard. It’d be easier to nerf D/P the weaponset and buff thief the traits – so that D/P have to sacrifice for all the utility they get.

Alright, let’s look at nerfing D/P for a second. The only thing that doesn’t affect other weapon sets would be nerfing Shadowshot. I guess we could nerf the damage, range, and projectile speed, however 4 out of the 5 skills would still be good. We could nerf BPS to be a dark field, but that affects P/P and S/P daredevils. Nerfing headshot would affect the same sets. You could nerf autos and heartseeker, but that would affect D/D which you’re trying to help. Every change except for 1 would affect a much larger swath of weapons than you intend, showing why that’s a bad path to go down.

Alternatively, buffing OH dagger would buff P/D, S/D, and D/D without affecting or buffing D/P. A change to Pistol Whip could be done to bring that set up to the level of staff (changing the dual skill entirely).

P/P #1, 2, and 3 can be balanced without affecting anything else other than P/D 1 and 2.

Nerfing D/P is the entirely wrong way to go to achieve the results you want. Other than nerfing Shadowshot, doing anything would adversely affect sets that are already underperfoming. Buffing X/D and looking at all of the dual skills individually is the best option to bring them all to roughly the same level after which traits can be addressed making all weaponsets rise and fall together.

She wants shadowshot to get nerfed. I do not see how it is justified given thief state in pvp right now (and even after patch). Her idea of destroying thief completely for the sake of eventual rework (that will probably never come) is also silly because by the time devs actually come up with something and implement it, a lot of time would pass and most remaining thief players would quit this game.