Guild Wars 2

stof.9341:

Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p

Thieves feel more like the squishy, little minions going from Point A to Point B. It is sad.

Sagat.3285:

Everything must be suport then.

This is my reasoning for this thread. “+1” isn’t a Thief role because it can be accomplished by ANY profession. But the Thief is limited to ONLY +1 engagements. That’s why it is a limitation, not a role.

As for a role, even a support role, think of Dungeons and Dragons. A Cleric can fill the role of a healer very well. That class has the abilities to do it. A Barbarian, on the other hand, would not be a good choice to keep the party healed through a fight, but it can be a great front-line striker. Each class has a role to play that they are skilled at.

I could understand the Thief having a Venom Share support role. I could understand the Thief having a stealthy Ninja Nurse support role. I can understand the Thief having the role of scout and coordinator. If the Thief were given the power or the survivability, I could see the Thief having the roles to assassinate lone targets or to intercept and harass enemies off-point.
Those are roles that the Thief can or could fulfill. You can try to argue about (de)capping being a role, but whatever the case, “+1” is just math… it’s not a role. Anyone can +1. The Thief is actually at a disadvantage compared to other professions even in a +1. It has mobility, yes, but it lacks power and survivability.

I honestly feel a thief should be able to 1v1 any spec/class and win in a reasonable amount of time IF the thief player is better.

I also think that all hard counters need to be removed and all 1v1 encounters should be solely based on skill.

By definition a role is:
the duty or use that someone or something usually has or is expected to have

So if you like it or not roaming, decapping , turning fights in favor for your team is a role. It’s not a fighter/asssssin role but then again we have other professions who are more suited for that kind of role.

The argument that other classes like Ele and Me s can do it too is in my opinion only kind of right. If they would be as good as thiefs I think we would see them used more often in tourneys specifically in that role. But their mobility can’t hold up against the thief’s. I quite like this role because it has pretty high impact if done right and has more of a tactical aspect to it.

Don’t get me wrong. I understand where you guys are coming from. But Thief as it is relies on stealth. Stealth is a powerful and combined with dodges and disengaging abilities our only defensive mechanic. In conquest this mechanic has it’s downsides and always will have. So I don’t see us filling any other role at least till HoT. Maybe the new specialization will add some kind of non stealth bruiser built which can contest points more efficiently.

Zero Day.2594:

@Jana

That direction is MOBAs… Hence the talk about them.

True – but in GW we once were one man armies as there are no roles in this game – and I think that’s one of things I liked the most.

T raw.4658:

I honestly feel a thief should be able to 1v1 any spec/class and win in a reasonable amount of time IF the thief player is better.

I also think that all hard counters need to be removed and all 1v1 encounters should be solely based on skill.

Well a lot of professions have very strong methods of retaliating against our bursts or strong defenses that can recover from them that drag the fight on longer which is something thief doesn’t do well with in a pvp setting. I don’t think we need more dps to better ourselves in 1v1 though, we need better tools to survive and control the enemy so coming across that 1v1 could be deadly for more than just the 4 seconds we show up.

Kageseigi.2150:

If the Thief were given the power or the survivability

think about the storm of outrage that would come from that…

I can sympathize with the shame of not being able to “viably 1v1” other classes at the game’s current state.

HOWEVER, our impact to the outcome of matches is VERY high and your ego of wanting to “be the knight and not the squire” is thoroughly irrelevant. If you don’t like what we do best, you’re looking at a blissful reroll.

I personally enjoy having that much “invisible” impact on my shoulders.

Jana.6831:

Why are you even arguing about another game?
I think GW2 might be pretty unique but it’s headed into a direction I really don’t like. That not because of my favourite class (and spec) having been nerfed into the ground but the recent and upcoming changes will be hard to undo and they will have to undo it – question is why do they implement it in the first place.

I agree with this. I logged in today after having taken a hiatus to cool off after the infamous patch, and found that not only had things not really improved, but based on the forums it sounds like they’re just scheduled to get worse for thief. Not sure if I’m ever going to log in again, but the outlook isn’t positive.

Why not just +1 with a warrior or guardian instead? The have fast attacks and actual survivability. Only thing that counters high defense are the armor down debuffs, which are a joke anyway.

i saw that berserker preview and it had 28k hp :[

bliss.4305:

I can sympathize with the shame of not being able to “viably 1v1” other classes at the game’s current state.

HOWEVER, our impact to the outcome of matches is VERY high and your ego of wanting to “be the knight and not the squire” is thoroughly irrelevant. If you don’t like what we do best, you’re looking at a blissful reroll.

I personally enjoy having that much “invisible” impact on my shoulders.

I’m glad you have the team-first attitude and the patience of Job, but it’s not only my ego that’s becoming irrelevant. The Thief as a whole is losing ground against everyone else.

Just look at the Thief’s history of regression. And look at the buffs that every other profession got from the big patch. I bet it would be enlightening for people to try the “Thief’s role” with other professions and see how it works out.

The main problem I have with the Thief is that it is becoming a hasbeen. It’s like Indiana Jones in his 4th movie. Compare it to the original trilogy. He is taking a backseat, and letting Shia Labeouf take center stage, swinging with the monkeys and all that.

Yes, he’s Indiana Jones. No one can take that away from him. But that doesn’t mean he’s relevant anymore.

The Thief can do his invisible job even if unarmed….save for Infiltrator’s Arrow. The +1 situation is just laughable. What kind of situation is that for a combat game? If that is how the Thief is supposed to be, then why not just go all out and make him a ghost or something?

Ego or not, this is a combat game. The design of Guild Wars 2 was to get away from typecast roles. Let me be able to fight with the profession of my choosing. And I don’t mean simply adding DPS to a fight. Let me have some way to be lethal against anyone. If I can’t kill them, why should they be able to kill me?

Again, this is the bottom line… if you’re going to make a “glass cannon” type of profession, then make sure his cannon is a feared and effective one. The problem now is that everyone else got upgrades to defenses AND offenses. Our cannon isn’t so scary now. And our glass didn’t improve while it’s almost like other professions’ armor can break us.

Reaven.3958:

Jana.6831:

Why are you even arguing about another game?
I think GW2 might be pretty unique but it’s headed into a direction I really don’t like. That not because of my favourite class (and spec) having been nerfed into the ground but the recent and upcoming changes will be hard to undo and they will have to undo it – question is why do they implement it in the first place.

I agree with this. I logged in today after having taken a hiatus to cool off after the infamous patch, and found that not only had things not really improved, but based on the forums it sounds like they’re just scheduled to get worse for thief. Not sure if I’m ever going to log in again, but the outlook isn’t positive.

That was a wrong move reading the forums.

Ignorance is bliss. If only you didn’t read the forums, you could have enjoyed the game longer.

I agree with OP and others who say that 1 isn’t a role. It’s, quite literally, just hand-holding someone else because Thieves just aren’t powerful enough to handle fights on their own. +1 is the only combat a Thief can viably engage in, which is totally bizarre considering that Thief as a class was intended to be a good, single target, 1v1 powerhouse.
It makes me angry that people seem to think that Thief being the only profession right now that is so weak in a 1v1 situation compared to mesmers, eles, guardians, rangers etc that they’re FORCED into the “Dw bro, I’m here to give you some supporting damage” playstyle is totally OK, because at least we’re ‘good’ at it (and even that’s mostly down to mobility with SB 5 rather than actual damage). I’d say the fact that if we’re not being a +1 in a fight, and we’re not decapping away from the fight (you know, like literally every profession can ALSO do…) then we’re just simply dying in a couple seconds is a huge, HUGE indicator that Thief needs some attention.
In fact, to any and all D/D eles, Guardians, Mesmers etc who support the +1 “role”: how about we try one day where Anet nerfs your 1v1 capability into the ground, just for 1 day, and tell you "1 or gtfo." and see how long it takes for you to start complaining. I can almost guarantee it’ll take less than 30 minutes.

Thieves need serious nerf. They have insane damage, which is really easy to deal, backstab has 1600 range, even if u go in melee combat with them their endless hp, protection,cond removal skills, evades and regeneration are impossible to penetrate, its really frustrating when u need to waste 3-4 abilities to down them and all the time blinding, make the blind debuff apair with bigger icon, something like 2m x 2m on my screen so i dont waste my burst. Its so hard to aoe the location of shadow refuge, there are no shining signs “AoE here”.Oh and when they reset the fight, they get to full hp and have all their abilities ready, while my hp doesnt regenerate and my cds freeze, so they engage again with maximum power and i can defend myself only with “1”.

firstly, theif obviously is good and has a role. every team runs one, and magic toker got MVP at WTS. neither of those would be the case if theif is a bad class with no role. just watch magic toker if you want to know how to be a pro seriously.

secondly theif pushes builds that are weak vs theif out of the meta. zerker warrior, zerker ele, zerker engi etc these are all weak vs a good theif, so people don’t run them much if at all. meta builds are all meta in part because they can deal with theif. because since every team runs a DP theif if your build is counterd by him he can just farm you all game. so people don’t run builds that are weak to theif.

thirdly, most thieves suck. the average theif you encounter in ranked or unranked blows. they fail around, 222222, hardly decap, and just downstate in teamfights. I’ve killed so many d/p thieves with hammer warrior. hammer warrior with a clerics amulet. they have blind spam but they just like to facetank idk why.
this is probably the main reason, it just seems too hard for the average theif to get better than average, or just to get ok at the class.

choovanski.5462:

firstly, theif obviously is good and has a role. every team runs one, and magic toker got MVP at WTS. neither of those would be the case if theif is a bad class with no role. just watch magic toker if you want to know how to be a pro seriously.

secondly theif pushes builds that are weak vs theif out of the meta. zerker warrior, zerker ele, zerker engi etc these are all weak vs a good theif, so people don’t run them much if at all. meta builds are all meta in part because they can deal with theif. because since every team runs a DP theif if your build is counterd by him he can just farm you all game. so people don’t run builds that are weak to theif.

thirdly, most thieves suck. the average theif you encounter in ranked or unranked blows. they fail around, 222222, hardly decap, and just downstate in teamfights. I’ve killed so many d/p thieves with hammer warrior. hammer warrior with a clerics amulet. they have blind spam but they just like to facetank idk why.
this is probably the main reason, it just seems too hard for the average theif to get better than average, or just to get ok at the class.

As said in other thread, good thief with good team can carry.
Good thief with bad team doesn’t have any impact, on opposite side good ele can carry pretty well <<this is core issue.

We do not have enough amazing players so they can fill “good team” for every thief out there; the reliance on your team to be good just to do well yourself for thief is just too huge compared to other classes. Thief used to be a threat, now it is a threat only when it helps 2 other teammates…………

Kageseigi.2150:

stof.9341:

Well +1 role looks really a lot like a MOBA roaming ganker. It IS a role really :p

Thieves feel more like the squishy, little minions going from Point A to Point B. It is sad.

Sagat.3285:

Everything must be suport then.

This is my reasoning for this thread. “+1” isn’t a Thief role because it can be accomplished by ANY profession. But the Thief is limited to ONLY +1 engagements. That’s why it is a limitation, not a role.

As for a role, even a support role, think of Dungeons and Dragons. A Cleric can fill the role of a healer very well. That class has the abilities to do it. A Barbarian, on the other hand, would not be a good choice to keep the party healed through a fight, but it can be a great front-line striker. Each class has a role to play that they are skilled at.

I could understand the Thief having a Venom Share support role. I could understand the Thief having a stealthy Ninja Nurse support role. I can understand the Thief having the role of scout and coordinator. If the Thief were given the power or the survivability, I could see the Thief having the roles to assassinate lone targets or to intercept and harass enemies off-point.
Those are roles that the Thief can or could fulfill. You can try to argue about (de)capping being a role, but whatever the case, “+1” is just math… it’s not a role. Anyone can +1. The Thief is actually at a disadvantage compared to other professions even in a +1. It has mobility, yes, but it lacks power and survivability.

Tagline video kudos 1,000+ – and the truth keeps on rolling, but only by players.

choovanski.5462:

secondly theif pushes builds that are weak vs theif out of the meta. zerker warrior, zerker ele, zerker engi etc these are all weak vs a good theif, so people don’t run them much if at all. meta builds are all meta in part because they can deal with theif. because since every team runs a DP theif if your build is counterd by him he can just farm you all game. so people don’t run builds that are weak to theif.

In the current game…..

1. What builds are pushed out of meta specifically by the Thief? Again, builds that are not weak against other professions?

2. What builds are the Thief NOT weak against?

3. Why is the Thief actually taken on teams?

4. Why should a true “glass cannon” not be able to pose a true threat to ANY build 1v1?

5. Why should ONE weapon skill define an entire profession, making others QQ if you ask for choices for viable builds which would give the Thief the ability to have an actual, true role in a combat game?

In other words, the current Thief is hardly a magician or all-powerful diety in determining what is meta. If a build is too glassy to survive an encounter with a Thief, then it’s way too glassy to be fighting anything else. Thieves themselves are too glassy to be fighting anything else. That should be the only indicator needed to know that something’s wrong.

Why does the Thief go for burst damage instead of defense? Because there’s no point. Everyone deals too much damage for it to matter, especially with the loss of offensive power.

We have two choices….
1. To die quickly and deal decent damage.
2. To die quickly and deal insignificant damage.

Who else has to make that choice?

I was never aware that it was considered role. It’d be like calling 100 blades a role, or fear a role. In fact, "+1" is a small part of what comes with good mobility, and you wouldn’t even call mobility a role. You’d have a mobile member of the team who can perform time-sensitive tasks such as rushing to maintain a cap because they are faster than those who can hold it effectively for a worthwhile period of time, and that would be an added responsibility or aspect of their role, which is chiefly something else. It’s bad practice to take someone to perform a role which you cannot be sure will even be needed, but good practice to take someone who can perform such a role - perhaps not the best at it - in addition to performing a role you know for certain will be needed.

Taking someone purely to "+1" might equate to making it a 4v5 in your opponent’s favour. That being said, the ability of a thief to +1 fights quickly is a large part of why they are still in the meta, and is the mark of a bad design, or, more accurately neglect over numerous balance patches.

+1 is a role. It is a another name for roamer. Except, thieves mobility is faster and they have the best disengage, while their burst is decent. They can travel anywhere in the map in a short amount of time. When they get to their destination, they can finish the fight quickly and then leave to contribute to other parts of the fight. Another class could be stronger than a thief, but their role doesn’t matter if they can’t reach their destination in time only to see their allies lie dead.

How about, Recon?

Kageseigi.2150:

Thieves are great at dying.

^This.

Guys, you’re missing the point. Our role is to +1 to the enemy team’s score.

Incoming Thief Elite Spec: One is the loneliest number. With this spec, the thief will be able to divide into two. The clone will deal 30% of of the originals damage, but the thief will suffer 50% decrease in damage. We wanted to show you that two can be as bad as one; now thieves can take on their new role as a +2. So you can +1 or 2, depending on your mood.

Two can be as bad as one. It’s the loneliest number since the number one :-(

No is the saddest experience you’ll ever know. Yes, it’s the saddest experience you’ll ever know :’-(

Kageseigi.2150:

Two can be as bad as one. It’s the loneliest number since the number one :-(

No is the saddest experience you’ll ever know. Yes, it’s the saddest experience you’ll ever know :’-(

Dem feels

Maugetarr.6823:

Dem feels

I only knew this version.

Maugetarr.6823:

Kageseigi.2150:

Two can be as bad as one. It’s the loneliest number since the number one :-(

No is the saddest experience you’ll ever know. Yes, it’s the saddest experience you’ll ever know :’-(

Dem feels

There….. There…

OK, so while +1 isn’t considered a role (because the role is actually support, the word you guys were looking for is support, which the thief has one viable build for) would you consider -1 a role: where you incapacitate a single enemy fighter for as long as possible to give your team a numerical advantage. It’s the same as being able to hunt down a back-line fighter in the middle of a fray, but slower.

Honestly, I don’t see a single legitimate reason why it shouldn’t be a role. When done well, it wins games and makes MVP in World Tournament Series.

Dont worry, Staff will fix all your problems

It’s funny how nobody understands the importance of +1 and insta blink burst..

it’s literally the performance of +1ers/DPS that determines you win or lose and it takes a decent amount of map awareness and rotation skill to do so.
there’s so many thieves in the game, yet very few has the actual map awareness and rotation skill to make it in to at least a decent team.

lighter.2708:

It’s funny how nobody understands the importance of +1 and insta blink burst..

it’s literally the performance of +1ers/DPS that determines you win or lose and it takes a decent amount of map awareness and rotation skill to do so.
there’s so many thieves in the game, yet very few has the actual map awareness and rotation skill to make it in to at least a decent team.

Truth is all competitive play thieves switched to either ele or mesmer.
No kitting.