Remove stealth on miss/evade/block
Or is it just that you feel you should be rewarded somehow for surviving an initial hit? Yeah. lets reward you for doing that. and actually ruin the whole build for a dd thief just because you managed to evade the initial backstab, and like i said, refuse to hit that one button.
Anyway, BS unblockable ftw.
But nevertheless backstab should be unblockable.
If by “rewarded” you mean being safe from that particular attack at least till the next time the thief stealths…then yes!
I’m concerned that you think being unable to spam BS “ruins” the build for a D/D thief. Don’t you want at least some skill to play?
i dont really know how many times can one spam backstab in 2-3 seconds (depending on how long it takes to get in position), and maybe you didnt know.. but once you land it, you get revealed, so, “spamming backstab” is not an option.
and yes, nerfing backstab that way will break the build because it will take a huge amount of luck to actually land it (maybe if the opponent was sleeping or something). The glass cannon build is ment to deal that huge damage (which anyway requires good positioning before you even use steal to actually have chance to get close to instagibb) – observe the emphasys on how backstab isnt that easy to play as you think it is -. If you blow your burst then you might as well disengage, and if not, most of the times die, considering the opponent is not a total noob.
So you see.. playing a dd bs build requires that you have some skills to set up the burst and the rest of them to escape/survive. How much viable will that build be when you get to mess it up more often than now. Because when you play on a higher level, people actually know how to counter. Which leads me to the same question.. why do you keep beating around the bush and refuse to say why you prefer not to press the counter button?Spamming BS in this context refers to repeatedly missing your BS until it hits.
I think you’re confusing luck with skill, patience, and practice. Instead of mindlessly spamming 1 until backstab hits, this change will force the Thief to observe his opponent more carefully, watching for dodges, aegis, stunbreak cooldowns, etc.Right now, dodge, the counter button shared by all classes that SHOULD work on backstab, doesn’t work because backstab can simply be repeated until the evade is over. No other kind of burst has this fail-safe functionality, and backstab shouldn’t either, as it trivializes the consequences of bad play on the thief’s part as well as good play from the opponent.
You clearly have no idea what you are even talking about. First of all, yes, a dodge DOES avoid it, simply because by doing that you make it incredibly likely that their stealth will run out before they can get behind you. Second, you cannot just blindly spam backstab until it hits. If you do you’ll just end up hitting them from the wrong angle and do piddly half damage.
If you have so little experience with this, why are you even trying to argue against it?
Or is it just that you feel you should be rewarded somehow for surviving an initial hit? Yeah. lets reward you for doing that. and actually ruin the whole build for a dd thief just because you managed to evade the initial backstab, and like i said, refuse to hit that one button.
Anyway, BS unblockable ftw.
But nevertheless backstab should be unblockable.
If by “rewarded” you mean being safe from that particular attack at least till the next time the thief stealths…then yes!
I’m concerned that you think being unable to spam BS “ruins” the build for a D/D thief. Don’t you want at least some skill to play?
i dont really know how many times can one spam backstab in 2-3 seconds (depending on how long it takes to get in position), and maybe you didnt know.. but once you land it, you get revealed, so, “spamming backstab” is not an option.
and yes, nerfing backstab that way will break the build because it will take a huge amount of luck to actually land it (maybe if the opponent was sleeping or something). The glass cannon build is ment to deal that huge damage (which anyway requires good positioning before you even use steal to actually have chance to get close to instagibb) – observe the emphasys on how backstab isnt that easy to play as you think it is -. If you blow your burst then you might as well disengage, and if not, most of the times die, considering the opponent is not a total noob.
So you see.. playing a dd bs build requires that you have some skills to set up the burst and the rest of them to escape/survive. How much viable will that build be when you get to mess it up more often than now. Because when you play on a higher level, people actually know how to counter. Which leads me to the same question.. why do you keep beating around the bush and refuse to say why you prefer not to press the counter button?Spamming BS in this context refers to repeatedly missing your BS until it hits.
I think you’re confusing luck with skill, patience, and practice. Instead of mindlessly spamming 1 until backstab hits, this change will force the Thief to observe his opponent more carefully, watching for dodges, aegis, stunbreak cooldowns, etc.Right now, dodge, the counter button shared by all classes that SHOULD work on backstab, doesn’t work because backstab can simply be repeated until the evade is over. No other kind of burst has this fail-safe functionality, and backstab shouldn’t either, as it trivializes the consequences of bad play on the thief’s part as well as good play from the opponent.
Warriors do not lose their adrenaline when the target miss/evade/invul etc. It is however put on CD.
I don’t get it…
A backstab missing/evaded wouldn’t cause stealth do drop thematically (The thief is still hidden, nothing has been done to reveal their positioning)
Backstab cannot be spammed either.
“Oh but it doesn’t have a cooldown!!!” is a true statement but it has a positional requirement;
Meaning that out of the 3 (4) second stealth that has been used to open access to it about 1 (More if D/P and further away) has been used to reach a targets back, then there’s the hit that comes that has been dodged/blocked/missed (Due to target moving out of range via erratic movements) and the last ~1.5-2.5 seconds will have to be used to get back behind the target, because Dodging moves you (So the thief is no longer at your back), Block gives you the opportunity to turn around (If you’ve been attacked, you know the thief is at your back, only a moron wouldn’t turn around to not only get the thief out of position for a backstab but also to wail on them) and moving around erratically has a very good chance of having the thief out of position (Erratic movements = hard to follow)
If the second backstab is not achieved in time, then stealth will wear out (After the next patch it will also cause revealed) and the thief will have to restealth in order to try again.
There’s two kinds of people… The quick and the dead”
by default guardians sit with aegis on. not only does it take 0 skill 0 spec and 0 button presses.when traited it heals and causes retaliation and burning when it is removed.(still 0 buttons pressed) people saying spammable backstab isnt skilled when they compare it to the skill it takes to block??
where is the logic in that.
Automatic Aegis has a 40s cooldown, and most on demand aegis have much longer cooldowns than that. Using one of the few sources of on demand Aegis that they have at the appropriate moment to block a backstab does in fact take some degree of skill, regardless of what you would like to believe. Right now, that skill is completely inconsequential to the thief because half a second later another backstab of the exact same damage will hit.
by default guardians sit with aegis on. not only does it take 0 skill 0 spec and 0 button presses.when traited it heals and causes retaliation and burning when it is removed.(still 0 buttons pressed) people saying spammable backstab isnt skilled when they compare it to the skill it takes to block??
where is the logic in that.
Automatic Aegis has a 40s cooldown, and most on demand aegis have much longer cooldowns than that. Using one of the few sources of on demand Aegis that they have at the appropriate moment to block a backstab does in fact take some degree of skill, regardless of what you would like to believe. Right now, that skill is completely inconsequential to the thief because half a second later another backstab of the exact same damage will hit.
…It’s starting to sound like the real issue here is that you play a Guardian, and instead of doing what everyone else does to easily avoid a Backstab they know is coming, you keep blowing Blocks you know won’t stop them <_<
I can confidently say the real issue here is not with the Thieves you’ve been fighting. Also, I fail to see how your agenda even relates to Misses, except that you have a personal bias against Thieves.
Or is it just that you feel you should be rewarded somehow for surviving an initial hit? Yeah. lets reward you for doing that. and actually ruin the whole build for a dd thief just because you managed to evade the initial backstab, and like i said, refuse to hit that one button.
Anyway, BS unblockable ftw.
But nevertheless backstab should be unblockable.
If by “rewarded” you mean being safe from that particular attack at least till the next time the thief stealths…then yes!
I’m concerned that you think being unable to spam BS “ruins” the build for a D/D thief. Don’t you want at least some skill to play?
i dont really know how many times can one spam backstab in 2-3 seconds (depending on how long it takes to get in position), and maybe you didnt know.. but once you land it, you get revealed, so, “spamming backstab” is not an option.
and yes, nerfing backstab that way will break the build because it will take a huge amount of luck to actually land it (maybe if the opponent was sleeping or something). The glass cannon build is ment to deal that huge damage (which anyway requires good positioning before you even use steal to actually have chance to get close to instagibb) – observe the emphasys on how backstab isnt that easy to play as you think it is -. If you blow your burst then you might as well disengage, and if not, most of the times die, considering the opponent is not a total noob.
So you see.. playing a dd bs build requires that you have some skills to set up the burst and the rest of them to escape/survive. How much viable will that build be when you get to mess it up more often than now. Because when you play on a higher level, people actually know how to counter. Which leads me to the same question.. why do you keep beating around the bush and refuse to say why you prefer not to press the counter button?Spamming BS in this context refers to repeatedly missing your BS until it hits.
I think you’re confusing luck with skill, patience, and practice. Instead of mindlessly spamming 1 until backstab hits, this change will force the Thief to observe his opponent more carefully, watching for dodges, aegis, stunbreak cooldowns, etc.Right now, dodge, the counter button shared by all classes that SHOULD work on backstab, doesn’t work because backstab can simply be repeated until the evade is over. No other kind of burst has this fail-safe functionality, and backstab shouldn’t either, as it trivializes the consequences of bad play on the thief’s part as well as good play from the opponent.
With a default dodge roll though (straight backwards/not directional), the thief will already be set up to come out of stealth before they can attempt another backstab as they have already wasted time getting in position and will again have to reposition to recieve the full damage instead of the 2k facestab he will most likely get. Also, with the changes to stealth that are coming, the change would be fairly punitive as the thief will now be revealed after stealth ends no matter what, which will already reward players who can avoid the backstab for 3 seconds (which against most thieves is as simple as backpedaling in a circle). How about we see what its like to play against thieves after this round of changes to stealth, then decide if it needs to be changed further.
Or is it just that you feel you should be rewarded somehow for surviving an initial hit? Yeah. lets reward you for doing that. and actually ruin the whole build for a dd thief just because you managed to evade the initial backstab, and like i said, refuse to hit that one button.
Anyway, BS unblockable ftw.
But nevertheless backstab should be unblockable.
If by “rewarded” you mean being safe from that particular attack at least till the next time the thief stealths…then yes!
I’m concerned that you think being unable to spam BS “ruins” the build for a D/D thief. Don’t you want at least some skill to play?
i dont really know how many times can one spam backstab in 2-3 seconds (depending on how long it takes to get in position), and maybe you didnt know.. but once you land it, you get revealed, so, “spamming backstab” is not an option.
and yes, nerfing backstab that way will break the build because it will take a huge amount of luck to actually land it (maybe if the opponent was sleeping or something). The glass cannon build is ment to deal that huge damage (which anyway requires good positioning before you even use steal to actually have chance to get close to instagibb) – observe the emphasys on how backstab isnt that easy to play as you think it is -. If you blow your burst then you might as well disengage, and if not, most of the times die, considering the opponent is not a total noob.
So you see.. playing a dd bs build requires that you have some skills to set up the burst and the rest of them to escape/survive. How much viable will that build be when you get to mess it up more often than now. Because when you play on a higher level, people actually know how to counter. Which leads me to the same question.. why do you keep beating around the bush and refuse to say why you prefer not to press the counter button?Spamming BS in this context refers to repeatedly missing your BS until it hits.
I think you’re confusing luck with skill, patience, and practice. Instead of mindlessly spamming 1 until backstab hits, this change will force the Thief to observe his opponent more carefully, watching for dodges, aegis, stunbreak cooldowns, etc.Right now, dodge, the counter button shared by all classes that SHOULD work on backstab, doesn’t work because backstab can simply be repeated until the evade is over. No other kind of burst has this fail-safe functionality, and backstab shouldn’t either, as it trivializes the consequences of bad play on the thief’s part as well as good play from the opponent.
You clearly have no idea what you are even talking about. First of all, yes, a dodge DOES avoid it, simply because by doing that you make it incredibly likely that their stealth will run out before they can get behind you. Second, you cannot just blindly spam backstab until it hits. If you do you’ll just end up hitting them from the wrong angle and do piddly half damage.
If you have so little experience with this, why are you even trying to argue against it?
A dodge doesn’t even give a whole second worth of invulnerability. If you’re a half decent player you shouldn’t have any trouble landing backstabs on enemies after they’ve dodged once or even twice simply because even if you backstab while they dodge and evade your first attempt, you can still try again almost immediately.
Blindly spamming backstab while behind an enemy will hit before the stealth ends more often than not. This is the “playstyle” of a large majority of zerker Thief builds, and it shouldn’t be viable imho.
Kaon.. how long do you think stealth is? if a person evades a backstab the thief needs to reposition and try again before the stealth is over. that is a huge punishment and will most likely lead to the backstab not happening. stealth caused by stealing lasts 2 seconds. in those 2 seconds the thief needs to position behind for an attacka nd compensate for the evade. the dodge did work… you evaded steal which evaded (fury,might,swiftness) evaded mug which caused basalisk not to trigger screwing up the thiefs position to try to get a backstab off. congrats
by default guardians sit with aegis on. not only does it take 0 skill 0 spec and 0 button presses.when traited it heals and causes retaliation and burning when it is removed.(still 0 buttons pressed) people saying spammable backstab isnt skilled when they compare it to the skill it takes to block??
where is the logic in that.
Automatic Aegis has a 40s cooldown, and most on demand aegis have much longer cooldowns than that. Using one of the few sources of on demand Aegis that they have at the appropriate moment to block a backstab does in fact take some degree of skill, regardless of what you would like to believe. Right now, that skill is completely inconsequential to the thief because half a second later another backstab of the exact same damage will hit.
…It’s starting to sound like the real issue here is that you play a Guardian, and instead of doing what everyone else does to easily avoid a Backstab they know is coming, you keep blowing Blocks you know won’t stop them <_<
I can confidently say the real issue here is not with the Thieves you’ve been fighting. Also, I fail to see how your agenda even relates to Misses, except that you have a personal bias against Thieves.
Lol Guardians… the most boring class in the game imo… but feel free to take a look at my post history and tell me again that I don’t play Thief or have an interest in the state of Thief balance.
If you’ve actually read my posts you’ll see that the issue I’m raising here is that dodges alone are NOT sufficient to put a backstab on its artificial cooldown of sub-5s.
Kaon.. how long do you think stealth is? if a person evades a backstab the thief needs to reposition and try again before the stealth is over. that is a huge punishment and will most likely lead to the backstab not happening. stealth caused by stealing lasts 2 seconds. in those 2 seconds the thief needs to position behind for an attacka nd compensate for the evade. the dodge did work… you evaded steal which evaded (fury,might,swiftness) evaded mug which caused basalisk not to trigger screwing up the thiefs position to try to get a backstab off. congrats
Most standard length stealth last 3 seconds, 4 with the shadow arts trait.
Hidden Thief is a special case and always lasts 3 seconds anyways due to the prerequisite minor trait.
3 seconds will allow for at least* 1 repositioning after a backstab is dodged in my experience (usually more). Which is 1 more than there should be from a balance perspective, because every other damage heavy skill will be put on a cooldown after getting dodged. Why should we get a second, third or fourth chance?
(edited by Kaon.7192)
People who say “as X class” and then agree with a nerf don’t actually play that class.
Believe what you want, but some people actually care about balance.
Problem is balance is subjective. It’s a matter of perception. To add to the ambiguity, it’s safe to assume players on this forum are a minority in comparison to the full population of GW2. So what seems like a big deal here has a good chance of being a minority opinion in the game as a whole.
And how does that relate to being incapable of having the opinion that a class is overpowered, due to you playing it?
What you see as “overpowered” others may as “okay”. In otherwords, what we as individual as balance doesn’t matter. If you can prove a significant percentage of the whole community shares the view, that’s a bit differently, however ultimate only the devs decide is what balance is.
Part-time Kittenposter
so let me hear your idea kaon how do you see a thief playing. any miss of an attack causes unstealth plus reveal debuff.
imo this causes every single stealth damage ability + sneak attack to be next to worthless or an after thought to your spec.
this erases backstab thief as an option completely and also changes theif stealth to a defense only ability or a movement skill rather then a way to attack.
the damage backstab does is pretty high if you 100% spec into glass cannon.
they are also one of the easiest people to kill in game.
Being revealed might be a bit too heavy handed a way to handle this, but at the very least, stealth attacks should be limited to a single chance for each stealth duration.
That would be my suggestion.
I think a good compromise might be to only allow the very first auto-attack in stealth to activate the stealth attack. That way you have a single chance to land your backstab/daze and after that your 1 slot becomes your regular auto-attack, but you don’t get revealed until you actually do damage.
More detailed possible implementation.
because every other damage heavy skill will be put on a cooldown after getting dodged. Why should we get a second, third or fourth chance?
war adrenaline moves that missed don’t burn their adrenaline, and they can swap to redo (just in a different form) with no CD.
seemed fair and square to me.
because every other damage heavy skill will be put on a cooldown after getting dodged. Why should we get a second, third or fourth chance?
war adrenaline moves that missed don’t burn their adrenaline, and they can swap to redo (just in a different form) with no CD.
seemed fair and square to me.
Oh but you’re forgetting swap has a CD.
And this is offset by the fact that the only heavy damage burst skills for warriors are eviscerate and kill shot, and those two are not exactly chain-able for obvious reasons.
And to be clear I’m not claiming warriors not loosing adrenaline after missing is balanced. Quite the opposite, in fact.
(edited by Kaon.7192)
the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.
the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.
As people have already pointed out, back stab really doesn’t do that much damage unless you’re a glass cannon. I also disagree with people who are saying blocking a backstab is skillful. It’s completely telegraphed by their disappearing in stealth so it’s not hard to see coming. Aegis is the big one though, not just because of it’s virtually random nature, but also because it lasts 5 seconds when the virtue is used, longer than any stealth skill lasts outside of shadow refuge, even with the +1 second from the trait. So if a guardian uses the aegis virtue, you’re better off just popping out of stealth with a death blossom or waiting nearby to begin auto attacking because there’s nothing else you can do. Most of the block skills last about 2 seconds, some even more, so all you would have to do to not get back stabbed is dodge roll away from the thief, throw up your block, and then he only has a little under a second to get behind you and attack. Countering something by using a single ability that doesn’t even have to be that well timed isn’t my idea of skill.
question for kaon.
would you play a backstab thief if this change was made.. and why?
the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.
the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.
Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.
Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.
question for kaon.
would you play a backstab thief if this change was made.. and why?
Yes, precisely because of the higher skill floor involved.
It would clearly separate the thieves who actually play well versus the others.
I’m not saying that I’d definitely be in the former category, as I, myself, have gotten quite used to the forgiving nature of backstab as it is currently. But I’m willing to put in the time and effort to become better.
Right now there is very little room for differentiation for a zerker backstab thief. The skill floor is simply too low.
(edited by Kaon.7192)
i i knew it was something.. this is a im better then other people thread.
there are only a very few reasons why a person would call for a nerf on thier own class.
this reason is “im so good even if you nerf me it dosent matter” thread.
when you make a kill people question your ability because the damage is so high and you get 2 trys..
you will show them. you will do it without a second backstab… because you are that good.
maybe play with 1 hand or your eyes closed if you are so skilled that your chest thumping cant be heard over the next thieves chest thumping. dont call for a nerf on your own class. that is just pompus and pig headed.
As people have already pointed out, back stab really doesn’t do that much damage unless you’re a glass cannon. I also disagree with people who are saying blocking a backstab is skillful. It’s completely telegraphed by their disappearing in stealth so it’s not hard to see coming. Aegis is the big one though, not just because of it’s virtually random nature, but also because it lasts 5 seconds when the virtue is used, longer than any stealth skill lasts outside of shadow refuge, even with the +1 second from the trait. So if a guardian uses the aegis virtue, you’re better off just popping out of stealth with a death blossom or waiting nearby to begin auto attacking because there’s nothing else you can do. Most of the block skills last about 2 seconds, some even more, so all you would have to do to not get back stabbed is dodge roll away from the thief, throw up your block, and then he only has a little under a second to get behind you and attack. Countering something by using a single ability that doesn’t even have to be that well timed isn’t my idea of skill.
I agree with you in that simply using Aegis to counter a single backstab doesn’t take all the skill in the world. However, there are mechanical restraints in place that prevent guardians from popping Aegis even remotely as often as we can reapply stealth, so it’s nowhere close to a hard counter.
I would have to ask then: Should being allowed to miss/blocked/evaded any number of backstabs and still land the backstab be considered skill?
maybe play with 1 hand or your eyes closed if you are so skilled that your chest thumping cant be heard over the next thieves chest thumping. dont call for a nerf on your own class. that is just pompus and pig headed.
Balance is what will make or break GW2 as an e-sport. Balance benefits everybody who plays the game in the long term, including Thieves.
Care to explain what is pompus and pig headed about seeing an imbalance in my own class and wanting it addressed?
question for kaon.
would you play a backstab thief if this change was made.. and why?
Yes, precisely because of the higher skill floor involved.
It would clearly separate the thieves who actually play well versus the others.I’m not saying that I’d definitely be in the former category, as I, myself, have gotten quite used to the forgiving nature of backstab as it is currently. But I’m willing to put in the time and effort to become better.
Right now there is very little room for differentiation for a zerker backstab thief. The skill floor is simply too low.
because as you stated…
you want to nerf your own class to the point where only people better then you will be able to play it.
because you are saying thief is too easy and you are at the skill cap of the current thief.
because you are claiming that thieves that kill in the current state did not earn the kill it was given to them by an easy unfair skill.
thieves did not earn thier kills … they were given them unfairly..
they should have those kills and skills taken away from them to make it more fair for everyone else. we should make it harder for theives to earn kills while making it easier for other professions to earn kills off thieves..
ive heard this argument somewhere before. theives = 1% i guess.
question for kaon.
would you play a backstab thief if this change was made.. and why?
Yes, precisely because of the higher skill floor involved.
It would clearly separate the thieves who actually play well versus the others.I’m not saying that I’d definitely be in the former category, as I, myself, have gotten quite used to the forgiving nature of backstab as it is currently. But I’m willing to put in the time and effort to become better.
Right now there is very little room for differentiation for a zerker backstab thief. The skill floor is simply too low.
because as you stated…
you want to nerf your own class to the point where only people better then you will be able to play it.
because you are saying thief is too easy and you are at the skill cap of the current thief.
because you are claiming that thieves that kill in the current state did not earn the kill it was given to them by an easy unfair skill.
Thank you for the valuable addition to the topic at hand.
ehh. the whole topic is garbage imo. thats my valuable addition. it is you saying you have had it easy for too long and want to be nerfed so people will respect you more when you kill them.
gg on a topic that is all about how good you are.
lets just eliminate stealth and give thieves semi-transparency so that every one (else) is happy! this way thief will have his semi-transparent skills but be VISIBLE to every one!…
for f sake wile there is the tiniest bit of stealth in game ppl wont stop whining….
hop on you 100blades warrior or your d/d ele and have fun smashing everyone’s faces and leave the forums alone…. you whine about the thief cuz you can select a target then press 3 buttons and move to the next one since the thief STEALTHES and you cant do your magic combo you ppl fill the forum with these terrible sugestions for nerfing thieves even more…
the worst part is that a-net gives in to this nonsense and has been nerfing thieves more and more and more… 23 nerf patched for thieves since launch. in a few days will be nr. 24 im still waiting for them to change target but apparently they will not be happy until there are no thieves left in the mist. GJ a-net! GJ.
Kaon… buddy, we’re not even talking about dodge only.. when i said the counter button, i didnt mean the dodge roll button, i ment the skill that every profession has to actually avoid a burst. (invulnerability / blind / block / shadowstep / blur etc.)
ehh. the whole topic is garbage imo. thats my valuable addition. it is you saying you have had it easy for too long and want to be nerfed so people will respect you more when you kill them.
gg on a topic that is all about how good you are.
You’re entitled to your opinion. But I think it’s disingenuous to derail this discussion to a matter of chest thumping without first offering a proper explanation as to why you believe this is not a valid balance issue.
the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.
the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.
Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.
Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.
I think you’re talking about point B and negecting point A.
The current topic of discussion is Backstab and how miss/evade/vul affect it. Before we talk about that, we need to go back to point A; stealth. How did the thief get into stealth? There are serveral options; heal, utilities, and weapon sets.
This should be where the oportunity cost comes into play. The majority of the time, stealth is either achieved by CnD or BP+HS. All of these skills cost init and with CnD it must hit the target at 120 range. But you as a thief player, already know this. The cost is paid up front via init and Backstab is our reward.
A thief can continue to Backstab in stealth until it does damage at which time the reveal debuff is applied. Since the thief is not dealing damage when the attack is block, miss/evade, or invul, the reveal debuff does not trigger – this is how the mechanic works. Is it balance? Yes, please see first two paragraphs for my reason but to repeat it, we already paid the cost to use Backstab.
(edited by Sifu.6527)
the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.
the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.
Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.
Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.
I think you’re talking about point B and negecting point A.
The current topic of discussion is Backstab and how miss/evade/vul affect it. Before we talk about that, we need to go back to point A; stealth. How did the thief get into stealth? There are serveral options; heal, utilities, and weapon sets.
This should be where the oportunity cost comes into play. The majority of the time, stealth is either achieved by CnD or BP+HS. All of these skills cost init and with CnD it must hit the target at 120 range. But you as a thief player, already know this. The cost is paid up front via init and Backstab is our reward.
Just to add on to this, the backstab damage then requires repositioning which can be tricky when not using a movement speed buff:
until people stop qqing and start actually learning how to counter things there will be no skill cap in public pvp.
So yeah… theres no skill :P
the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.
the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.
Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.
Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.
I think you’re talking about point B and negecting point A.
The current topic of discussion is Backstab and how miss/evade/vul affect it. Before we talk about that, we need to go back to point A; stealth. How did the thief get into stealth? There are serveral options; heal, utilities, and weapon sets.
This should be where the oportunity cost comes into play. The majority of the time, stealth is either achieved by CnD or BP+HS. All of these skills cost init and with CnD it must hit the target at 120 range. But you as a thief player, already know this. The cost is paid up front via init and Backstab is our reward.
That’s an interesting way of looking at it.
But in that sense, are you saying that as long as you land the C&D or pop your stealth cooldowns, you should be rewarded with as many chances as the stealth duration allows for to land your backstab? I still don’t think I can agree with that.
(edited by Kaon.7192)
it is not a valid balance issue because you(the person who is calling for the nerf) said that if the nerf was put in place that not even you would be able to play the thief in that condition. you would need to move up from (what you seem to think is the top of the skill ceiling) and practice to even make the spec function propperly.
this would cut everyone who is below the skill cap out of playing the spec all together.
if you do not consider yourself high on the skill cap.. then asking for a nerf that would make you unable to play your own class is illogical and deserves to be derailed.
or has another motive.
i.e. you were on another class and got killed by a thief you thought you were better then and dont think you deserved to die.
or you think its too easy for thieves with less skill then you to kill people.
just stating it again.
you..(a person who considers themselves a good thief).. would not be able to play the thief after the nerf you are calling for is put in place.
so… even high end thieves would have trouble compensating for the nerf you are asking for.
the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.
the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.
Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.
Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.
I think you’re talking about point B and negecting point A.
The current topic of discussion is Backstab and how miss/evade/vul affect it. Before we talk about that, we need to go back to point A; stealth. How did the thief get into stealth? There are serveral options; heal, utilities, and weapon sets.
This should be where the oportunity cost comes into play. The majority of the time, stealth is either achieved by CnD or BP+HS. All of these skills cost init and with CnD it must hit the target at 120 range. But you as a thief player, already know this. The cost is paid up front via init and Backstab is our reward.
That’s an interesting way of looking at it.
But in that sense, are you saying that as long as you land the C&D or pop your stealth cooldowns, you should be rewarded with as many chances as the stealth duration allows for to land your backstab? I still don’t think I can agree with that.
you are not rewarded with anything.. you make it sound, and you actually believe it yourself, like you have infinite tries for landing the bs, when in reality, if your opponent dodges, you’d be lucky if you even get in range, not even talking about getting back in position… and like i said above.. dodge isnt the only way to avoid a bs.
the only reason other peoples skills get put on cooldown is because they do not use initiative. none of our skills get put on cooldown when used.
the skill that did get put on cooldown is whatever you used to get into stealth. that is the ability that gives you backstab.
Yes, most of our skills use initiative, which serves as our global cooldown mechanic. When missing those skills, there is opportunity costs involved.
Backstab does not use initiative, however, and can be used immediately after a miss/block/evade, so missing it has very negligible opportunity costs for us. Therein lies the problem.
I think you’re talking about point B and negecting point A.
The current topic of discussion is Backstab and how miss/evade/vul affect it. Before we talk about that, we need to go back to point A; stealth. How did the thief get into stealth? There are serveral options; heal, utilities, and weapon sets.
This should be where the oportunity cost comes into play. The majority of the time, stealth is either achieved by CnD or BP+HS. All of these skills cost init and with CnD it must hit the target at 120 range. But you as a thief player, already know this. The cost is paid up front via init and Backstab is our reward.
That’s an interesting way of looking at it.
But in that sense, are you saying that as long as you land the C&D or pop your stealth cooldowns, you should have as many chances as the stealth duration allows for to land your backstab? I still don’t think I can agree with that.
Yes, that is my opinion.
its odd that people say you get “infinite backstabs” as if that were true.
i guess it would be true if your target stood still doing nothing for an infinite amount of time.
anet and everyone else who plays thief seems to agree with sifu.
if they didnt they could have easily put initiative cost on a backstab skill.
it is not a valid balance issue because you(the person who is calling for the nerf) said that if the nerf was put in place that not even you would be able to play the thief in that condition. you would need to move up from (what you seem to think is the top of the skill ceiling) and practice to even make the spec function propperly.
this would cut everyone who is below the skill cap out of playing the spec all together.
if you do not consider yourself high on the skill cap.. then asking for a nerf that would make you unable to play your own class is illogical and deserves to be derailed.
or has another motive.
i.e. you were on another class and got killed by a thief you thought you were better then and dont think you deserved to die.
or you think its too easy for thieves with less skill then you to kill people.
just stating it again.
you..(a person who considers themselves a good thief).. would not be able to play the thief after the nerf you are calling for is put in place.
so… even high end thieves would have trouble compensating for the nerf you are asking for.
What I meant by that statement was that the transition itself will be difficult because the current system has given most of us bad habits in taking multiple backstab use for granted. Once we get used to it I really don’t think it will be that much of an issue to most decent Thief players.
It basically becomes a single attack that you have 1 chance to land, and can miss, like most other bursts in this game, with a 5s ish artificial cooldown near the beginning of the fight until we run out of initiative or stealth cooldowns.
I feel this is reasonable for the damage potential. But sadly, it seems like most people in this forum disagree. So I’ll take the hint.
And for the record, I did not start this thread. =P
my main issue is i would rather see the damage traded for mobility or survivability. adding something fun or an aspect of play that adds to the spec while moving them away from being 1 trick pony.
not saying that backstab thieves want that.. because they want thier one trick.
i dont disagree with the fact that they arent super high skill lvl. i dont want the spec to be made more clunky and awkward just to raise its skill lvl though.
Stealth is going to be removed if your unable to attack anymore, so if you miss your backstab, there is a good chance that your going to get reveal anyways now.
Pretty much this if you block/evade a backstab the thief is going to be exposed for 3 secs anyway unless he pops blinding powder to stay stealth. Then you know something is up but he blew one of his get out of jail cards to stay stealthed a bit longer to land a bs. Then he is probably going to either have to disengage then or go all out praying he can drop you with his next few attacks.
Sorry but I’m having trouble following your points.
The way the stealth attack mechanic works right now is, for as long as you remain in stealth, you can keep repeating the stealth attack indefinitely until you deal damage.
If your first stealth attack is blocked or evaded, a Thief can simply follow up with a second one in less than a quarter of a second, and a third one afterwards if the second one fails, rinse and repeat.
It’s completely delusional to consider this balanced, as it practically negates most forms of defensive action on the opponent’s side and allows for a practically unlimited amount of redo’s for the Thief if he misses his burst/control.
Being revealed might be a bit too heavy handed a way to handle this, but at the very least, stealth attacks should be limited to a single chance for each stealth duration.
My post was in regards to the change that if you attack or not you get revealed. Remember culling is also getting fixed this next patch and if it is indeed eliminated with the addition to the change in the way stealth works with attacking or not. It should pretty much hinder a thief alot more if they miss a backstab as long as the opponent isnt just standing there.
Culling gave an extra second or 2 of stealth basically to thieves if it is fixed a miss will be pretty big. Unless you get a good crit for 10k your looking at about 5-7k if your opponent is moving smartly then you might miss or hit them from the side or front for about 2-3k damage which isn’t bad damage at all unless your low hp full glass.
A thief can repeat the backstab over and over while in stealth but they have to hit from the back to even make it effective a front backstab for 2-3k isnt much at all.
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}
Stealth is going to be removed if your unable to attack anymore, so if you miss your backstab, there is a good chance that your going to get reveal anyways now.
Pretty much this if you block/evade a backstab the thief is going to be exposed for 3 secs anyway unless he pops blinding powder to stay stealth. Then you know something is up but he blew one of his get out of jail cards to stay stealthed a bit longer to land a bs. Then he is probably going to either have to disengage then or go all out praying he can drop you with his next few attacks.
Sorry but I’m having trouble following your points.
The way the stealth attack mechanic works right now is, for as long as you remain in stealth, you can keep repeating the stealth attack indefinitely until you deal damage.
If your first stealth attack is blocked or evaded, a Thief can simply follow up with a second one in less than a quarter of a second, and a third one afterwards if the second one fails, rinse and repeat.
It’s completely delusional to consider this balanced, as it practically negates most forms of defensive action on the opponent’s side and allows for a practically unlimited amount of redo’s for the Thief if he misses his burst/control.
Being revealed might be a bit too heavy handed a way to handle this, but at the very least, stealth attacks should be limited to a single chance for each stealth duration.
My post was in regards to the change that if you attack or not you get revealed. Remember culling is also getting fixed this next patch and if it is indeed eliminated with the addition to the change in the way stealth works with attacking or not. It should pretty much hinder a thief alot more if they miss a backstab as long as the opponent isnt just standing there.
Culling gave an extra second or 2 of stealth basically to thieves if it is fixed a miss will be pretty big. Unless you get a good crit for 10k your looking at about 5-7k if your opponent is moving smartly then you might miss or hit them from the side or front for about 2-3k damage which isn’t bad damage at all unless your low hp full glass.
A thief can repeat the backstab over and over while in stealth but they have to hit from the back to even make it effective a front backstab for 2-3k isnt much at all.
If I have a skill that says “Block next incoming attack” and I save it up for when the thief stealths, I get a “blocked” message, the thief can still instantly hit me again with BS. Or if I throw up a protective bubble that absorbs projectiles for 1 second, the thief can use Sneak Attack multiple times till it hits.
The basic idea is that if I time a skill to protect me for a second or two, and the thief tries to land an attack and fails, I have countered the play and should be rewarded at the very least by the thief not being able to immediately repeat it!
I have sometimes seen “Invulnerable” pop up several times in quick succession as certain protective skills root me to the ground. That’s wrong. It should pop just once and the thief should either be revealed or at least have a cooldown for that particular skill.
Stealth is going to be removed if your unable to attack anymore, so if you miss your backstab, there is a good chance that your going to get reveal anyways now.
Pretty much this if you block/evade a backstab the thief is going to be exposed for 3 secs anyway unless he pops blinding powder to stay stealth. Then you know something is up but he blew one of his get out of jail cards to stay stealthed a bit longer to land a bs. Then he is probably going to either have to disengage then or go all out praying he can drop you with his next few attacks.
Sorry but I’m having trouble following your points.
The way the stealth attack mechanic works right now is, for as long as you remain in stealth, you can keep repeating the stealth attack indefinitely until you deal damage.
If your first stealth attack is blocked or evaded, a Thief can simply follow up with a second one in less than a quarter of a second, and a third one afterwards if the second one fails, rinse and repeat.
It’s completely delusional to consider this balanced, as it practically negates most forms of defensive action on the opponent’s side and allows for a practically unlimited amount of redo’s for the Thief if he misses his burst/control.
Being revealed might be a bit too heavy handed a way to handle this, but at the very least, stealth attacks should be limited to a single chance for each stealth duration.
My post was in regards to the change that if you attack or not you get revealed. Remember culling is also getting fixed this next patch and if it is indeed eliminated with the addition to the change in the way stealth works with attacking or not. It should pretty much hinder a thief alot more if they miss a backstab as long as the opponent isnt just standing there.
Culling gave an extra second or 2 of stealth basically to thieves if it is fixed a miss will be pretty big. Unless you get a good crit for 10k your looking at about 5-7k if your opponent is moving smartly then you might miss or hit them from the side or front for about 2-3k damage which isn’t bad damage at all unless your low hp full glass.
A thief can repeat the backstab over and over while in stealth but they have to hit from the back to even make it effective a front backstab for 2-3k isnt much at all.
If I have a skill that says “Block next incoming attack” and I save it up for when the thief stealths, I get a “blocked” message, the thief can still instantly hit me again with BS. Or if I throw up a protective bubble that absorbs projectiles for 1 second, the thief can use Sneak Attack multiple times till it hits.
The basic idea is that if I time a skill to protect me for a second or two, and the thief tries to land an attack and fails, I have countered the play and should be rewarded at the very least by the thief not being able to immediately repeat it!
I have sometimes seen “Invulnerable” pop up several times in quick succession as certain protective skills root me to the ground. That’s wrong. It should pop just once and the thief should either be revealed or at least have a cooldown for that particular skill.
Hmm actually I was thinking about it more from a warrior perspective with my shield and 3s but you are right there are skills with block next attack so I actually could get behind the block causing reveal at least.
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}
If I’m in stealth and my opponent throws up a block, what am I supposed to do, wait it out? Those blocks(aegis) last more then 3-4 seconbds, If blocked attacks revealed, there nothing I can do, this suggestion would actually break stealth, I don’t this this suggestion was well thought out imo.
If I’m in stealth and my opponent throws up a block, what am I supposed to do, wait it out? Those blocks(aegis) last more then 3-4 seconbds, If blocked attacks revealed, there nothing I can do, this suggestion would actually break stealth, I don’t this this suggestion was well thought out imo.
So you feel that you should be able to completely ignore your enemy’s defensive move, then.
Hey while we’re at it Killshot should be unblockable/unevadable. It’s just not fair how easy it is to avoid it.
Backstab should instantly kill everyone out of combat… I mean 100-0 hp 1 shot.