Guild Wars 2

evilapprentice.6379:

Sensotix.4106:

concerning the damage: Yes 1.8k autoattack is much…(compare it to mesmer ~700-1k) (compare it to ele ~1.2k) and that’s just the autoattack

Auto-attack CRIT, And crippling strike At that (one of the 2 sword attacks that hits hard, and the only one that requires you to be open for reataliation to get to) – Also, please clarfiy, are you running 10/30/0/30/0 with a zerkers? Cause if so, you were also fulfilling Executioner and First strikes, for another 30% damage.

the more I read the more I have to facepalm….sry that’s how it is atm

I know it’s not a free leap to 100% of all places but to 80% of it and being able to follow somebody through walls or on highground is a broken mechanic that’s how it is

80% is an exaggeration only someone with little experience with S/D could come up with. I’m honestly kind of surprised it ports up on the ledge in your video, because usually the skill will only port you to your target if you could walk there with the listed range – there are other notable exceptions, but they are generally the exceptions, not the rule. Also calling it a “Free” leap is misleading, as it costs initiative.

Evades: yes every class has special abilities u took the guards boons for an example thank you very much for that because that’s exactly what I mean
You can counter the massive boons of the guardian with a shatter mesmer, the s/d thief, or a necro but how do you counter evades? well I hope you get the point

How do you counter immunes, and blocks? It’s called Timing. Learn to time your attacks. If an S/D thief is evading, he’s not hitting you with anything hard (That list includes Crippling Strike, Larcenous strike…and ends there).

All in all I have to tell you from what I have read in your comment is that you seem to play s/d thief are not really experienced with whats going on in top 200 tpvp and that you love your thief too much to accept that some mechanics are too strong which may comes from you only playing thief and not playing other classes against s/d thieves

It seems strange that you feel yourself capable of judging others understanding of S/D when you make points that expose your misunderstanding and dislike of the class.

Ps: Thief directly counters necro worm port, mesmer blink, ele blink (3 disengages)
what counters thief really hard in tournys? hm?

That’s what thieves do – they stick to their targets. I suppose you dislike steal, shadow shot, scorpion wire, and infiltrators signet as well? What do you want thief to be, a kittentier flavor of warrior?

evilapprentice

You can continue denying Thief being underpowered yet more truths about thieves overpowerdness are rapidly being exposed.

As the saying goes, “fight to the death for what you believe”, it seem that’s that’s the path you choose to to take.

Evilapprentice,

the Truth always Prevail.

Once again,

the Truths speak, “Thief class is in Serious need to be ajusted/scaled/”

Burnfall.9573:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sensotix.4106:

concerning the damage: Yes 1.8k autoattack is much…(compare it to mesmer ~700-1k) (compare it to ele ~1.2k) and that’s just the autoattack

Auto-attack CRIT, And crippling strike At that (one of the 2 sword attacks that hits hard, and the only one that requires you to be open for reataliation to get to) – Also, please clarfiy, are you running 10/30/0/30/0 with a zerkers? Cause if so, you were also fulfilling Executioner and First strikes, for another 30% damage.

the more I read the more I have to facepalm….sry that’s how it is atm

I know it’s not a free leap to 100% of all places but to 80% of it and being able to follow somebody through walls or on highground is a broken mechanic that’s how it is

80% is an exaggeration only someone with little experience with S/D could come up with. I’m honestly kind of surprised it ports up on the ledge in your video, because usually the skill will only port you to your target if you could walk there with the listed range – there are other notable exceptions, but they are generally the exceptions, not the rule. Also calling it a “Free” leap is misleading, as it costs initiative.

Evades: yes every class has special abilities u took the guards boons for an example thank you very much for that because that’s exactly what I mean
You can counter the massive boons of the guardian with a shatter mesmer, the s/d thief, or a necro but how do you counter evades? well I hope you get the point

How do you counter immunes, and blocks? It’s called Timing. Learn to time your attacks. If an S/D thief is evading, he’s not hitting you with anything hard (That list includes Crippling Strike, Larcenous strike…and ends there).

All in all I have to tell you from what I have read in your comment is that you seem to play s/d thief are not really experienced with whats going on in top 200 tpvp and that you love your thief too much to accept that some mechanics are too strong which may comes from you only playing thief and not playing other classes against s/d thieves

It seems strange that you feel yourself capable of judging others understanding of S/D when you make points that expose your misunderstanding and dislike of the class.

Ps: Thief directly counters necro worm port, mesmer blink, ele blink (3 disengages)
what counters thief really hard in tournys? hm?

That’s what thieves do – they stick to their targets. I suppose you dislike steal, shadow shot, scorpion wire, and infiltrators signet as well? What do you want thief to be, a kittentier flavor of warrior?

evilapprentice

You can continue denying Thief being underpowered yet more truths about thieves overpowerdness are rapidly being exposed.

As the saying goes, “fight to the death for what you believe”, it seem that’s that’s the path you choose to be in.

Evilapprentice,

the Truth always Prevail.

Once again,

the Truths speak, “Thief class is in Serious need to be ajusted/scaled”

So many arguments here… mind boggling.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Burnfall.9573:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sensotix.4106:

concerning the damage: Yes 1.8k autoattack is much…(compare it to mesmer ~700-1k) (compare it to ele ~1.2k) and that’s just the autoattack

Auto-attack CRIT, And crippling strike At that (one of the 2 sword attacks that hits hard, and the only one that requires you to be open for reataliation to get to) – Also, please clarfiy, are you running 10/30/0/30/0 with a zerkers? Cause if so, you were also fulfilling Executioner and First strikes, for another 30% damage.

the more I read the more I have to facepalm….sry that’s how it is atm

I know it’s not a free leap to 100% of all places but to 80% of it and being able to follow somebody through walls or on highground is a broken mechanic that’s how it is

80% is an exaggeration only someone with little experience with S/D could come up with. I’m honestly kind of surprised it ports up on the ledge in your video, because usually the skill will only port you to your target if you could walk there with the listed range – there are other notable exceptions, but they are generally the exceptions, not the rule. Also calling it a “Free” leap is misleading, as it costs initiative.

Evades: yes every class has special abilities u took the guards boons for an example thank you very much for that because that’s exactly what I mean
You can counter the massive boons of the guardian with a shatter mesmer, the s/d thief, or a necro but how do you counter evades? well I hope you get the point

How do you counter immunes, and blocks? It’s called Timing. Learn to time your attacks. If an S/D thief is evading, he’s not hitting you with anything hard (That list includes Crippling Strike, Larcenous strike…and ends there).

All in all I have to tell you from what I have read in your comment is that you seem to play s/d thief are not really experienced with whats going on in top 200 tpvp and that you love your thief too much to accept that some mechanics are too strong which may comes from you only playing thief and not playing other classes against s/d thieves

It seems strange that you feel yourself capable of judging others understanding of S/D when you make points that expose your misunderstanding and dislike of the class.

Ps: Thief directly counters necro worm port, mesmer blink, ele blink (3 disengages)
what counters thief really hard in tournys? hm?

That’s what thieves do – they stick to their targets. I suppose you dislike steal, shadow shot, scorpion wire, and infiltrators signet as well? What do you want thief to be, a kittentier flavor of warrior?

evilapprentice

You can continue denying Thief being underpowered yet more truths about thieves overpowerdness are rapidly being exposed.

As the saying goes, “fight to the death for what you believe”, it seem that’s that’s the path you choose to be in.

Evilapprentice,

the Truth always Prevail.

Once again,

the Truths speak, “Thief class is in Serious need to be ajusted/scaled”

So many arguments here… mind boggling.

No arguments here….. just telling the truth

Burnfall.9573:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sensotix.4106:

concerning the damage: Yes 1.8k autoattack is much…(compare it to mesmer ~700-1k) (compare it to ele ~1.2k) and that’s just the autoattack

Auto-attack CRIT, And crippling strike At that (one of the 2 sword attacks that hits hard, and the only one that requires you to be open for reataliation to get to) – Also, please clarfiy, are you running 10/30/0/30/0 with a zerkers? Cause if so, you were also fulfilling Executioner and First strikes, for another 30% damage.

the more I read the more I have to facepalm….sry that’s how it is atm

I know it’s not a free leap to 100% of all places but to 80% of it and being able to follow somebody through walls or on highground is a broken mechanic that’s how it is

80% is an exaggeration only someone with little experience with S/D could come up with. I’m honestly kind of surprised it ports up on the ledge in your video, because usually the skill will only port you to your target if you could walk there with the listed range – there are other notable exceptions, but they are generally the exceptions, not the rule. Also calling it a “Free” leap is misleading, as it costs initiative.

Evades: yes every class has special abilities u took the guards boons for an example thank you very much for that because that’s exactly what I mean
You can counter the massive boons of the guardian with a shatter mesmer, the s/d thief, or a necro but how do you counter evades? well I hope you get the point

How do you counter immunes, and blocks? It’s called Timing. Learn to time your attacks. If an S/D thief is evading, he’s not hitting you with anything hard (That list includes Crippling Strike, Larcenous strike…and ends there).

All in all I have to tell you from what I have read in your comment is that you seem to play s/d thief are not really experienced with whats going on in top 200 tpvp and that you love your thief too much to accept that some mechanics are too strong which may comes from you only playing thief and not playing other classes against s/d thieves

It seems strange that you feel yourself capable of judging others understanding of S/D when you make points that expose your misunderstanding and dislike of the class.

Ps: Thief directly counters necro worm port, mesmer blink, ele blink (3 disengages)
what counters thief really hard in tournys? hm?

That’s what thieves do – they stick to their targets. I suppose you dislike steal, shadow shot, scorpion wire, and infiltrators signet as well? What do you want thief to be, a kittentier flavor of warrior?

evilapprentice

You can continue denying Thief being underpowered yet more truths about thieves overpowerdness are rapidly being exposed.

As the saying goes, “fight to the death for what you believe”, it seem that’s that’s the path you choose to to take.

Evilapprentice,

the Truth always Prevail.

Once again,

the Truths speak, “Thief class is in Serious need to be ajusted/scaled/”

Since you seem unaware – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Sensotix.4106:

I am aweare of that fact but when you dont have enough initiative you can still port back out of the line of sight..thats my point..you cant kill a well played s/d thief just watch the pax finals…when caed tried to kill lady nag nag…he was full hp nag nag had like 4k and nag nag killed him

Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Weren’t people also pointing out how Caed couldn’t scratch that warrior? Guess he was OP too.

Just because a spec does poorly against another spec, or gasp, there might be a skill difference between 2 players, doesn’t mean a spec is broken or another is UP.

it was an example
another example..thief wins vs warriors in tournys
thief wins vs ele in tournys
vs necros
vs mesmers
vs guardians
vs some engis
vs some rangers

again this is just an example to show you guys there is no atual counter

Also evilapprentice.

I have an interesting read for you.

-“Thief fundamental design flaws”-

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-fundamental-design-flaws/first#post152197

Lastly,

“Why can some Thieves kill my level 80 instantly”?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Why-can-some-Thieves-kill-my-level-80-instantly

I have a lot games in S/D spec and think that’s not only crap, but even boring. You said that evade has no counter, but you’r not right. Just spam condi on that thief and he will die in 2 second. Aoe works fine too. Yes, guardians easy target for that kinda thief, but thief himself much easer target for condi necro. And if you are not condi, than try to learn his frames and strike between. That’s what others do against me. For people like that i should evade very often, but that means i don’t have enough dps to kill them. And that’s why it’s boring. S/D is fine, but boring for me.

Sensotix.4106:

I am aweare of that fact but when you dont have enough initiative you can still port back out of the line of sight..thats my point..you cant kill a well played s/d thief just watch the pax finals…when caed tried to kill lady nag nag…he was full hp nag nag had like 4k and nag nag killed him

So basically the fact that Caed messed up and was way too greedy is proof of S/D thief being unkillable. How do you explain the ESL cup then? Both teams in the finals not only had no thief at all (they had a mesmer instead), they also each beat a team with a good S/D thief (if we want to believe general consensus).

According to you I could claim that S/D thief is out of the meta, because of the mesmer (rest of the team set up was identical in both cases).

You are confirming that s\d is our only available set for tPvP then. Also when 2 very good thieves face eachother, it’s hard to tell the result. I won’t say that in a 1v1 situation S\D is so much stronger than D\P. That’s only in the current CC meta that S\D shines more where D\P fails, but both set are in a good state and will be in a good state if only this condi\CC meta will be nerfed a bit.
Nerfing only our mobility\evasion and leaving the meta like it is now, it will mean Death for all thieves.

these were just examples…ah hell no …
please i need only a little bit of understanding when i write something…
when i say caed couldnt kill him i dont mean it’s impossible i just said that its another example of how many evades a thief can have

and concerning the esl cup…guys…we have seen the eu pax qualifications and the winner team obviously had a thief…and to my mind watching the esl atm doesnt count at all since most of the really really good teams have left gw2…which doesnt mean there arent good teams in esl as well but the real top teams have left..

Sensotix.4106:

it was an example
another example..thief wins vs warriors in tournys
thief wins vs ele in tournys
vs necros
vs mesmers
vs guardians
vs some engis
vs some rangers

again this is just an example to show you guys there is no atual counter

You’re literally spouting gibberish. You don’t make any mention of skill level, scenario, or spec for the other players. Here’s a list logically equivalent with yours.

Purple wins vs green in tourneys.
vs blue
vs the moon
vs gravity
vs mars
vs sound
vs a slightly different shade of purple
vs emus
vs the ground sometimes
vs buildings, if they’re over 10 stories.

You don’t really have a point other than “S/D can win fights, and I don’t like that.” You don’t seem like a bad guy, you just don’t really have any good proof to back up your arguments, and you’re saying alot of things that don’t really pertain to the conversation.

Burnfall.9573:

Also evilapprentice.

I have an interesting read for you.

-“Thief fundamental design flaws”-

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-fundamental-design-flaws/first#post152197

Deejay doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. That’s not meant to be rude, he’s a nice person from my interactions with him, but He’s not really qualified enough to be considered a source on what thieves need. Might I direct you to this post where I convince him of such personally – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thieves-never-well-rounded-with-Initiative/first#post2859222

Lastly,

“Why can some Thieves kill my level 80 instantly”?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Why-can-some-Thieves-kill-my-level-80-instantly

Do whatever you like with thieves in WvW – I don’t play it, have no interest in it, and don’t have the experience to comment on it. I’m only interested in how thieves perform in SPvP/TPvP. Although, IIRC, isn’t S/D considered fairly weak in WvW? I’m just basing that on other peoples opinions though, so that could be incorrect as well.

okay then again
lets say everyone is on the same skill level

and i am talking about the current tournament and/or metabuilds
thief should win vs almost everything

Sensotix.4106:

these were just examples…ah hell no …
please i need only a little bit of understanding when i write something…
when i say caed couldnt kill him i dont mean it’s impossible i just said that its another example of how many evades a thief can have

and concerning the esl cup…guys…we have seen the eu pax qualifications and the winner team obviously had a thief…and to my mind watching the esl atm doesnt count at all since most of the really really good teams have left gw2…which doesnt mean there arent good teams in esl as well but the real top teams have left..

I am assuming you didn’t watch it, else you’d realize that several of the teams in the ESL cup would have probably won PAX if they had played the NA pug team.

i am not talking about winning vs na…i am talking about winning vs car crash for example without a thief..

Sensotix.4106:

okay then again
lets say everyone is on the same skill level

and i am talking about the current tournament and/or metabuilds
thief should win vs almost everything

Too vague – Purple wins almost every encounter with the universe.

If you want that statement to be taken seriously, you’re going to need to tell the community what spec the thief is using, and what spec “almost everything” else is using, otherwise you’re just spouting nonsense. It’s alot of work, going to GW2skills, speccing out builds, explaining why you feel the way you do, but until you can give me some sort of metric we can discuss, you’re just saying “Thief OP pls nrf” with no context.

First of all, I don’t really think Burnfall should comment on here, as he is a notorious thief hater, just go through his posts – You won’t ever find a post of him without thief bashing, therefore he cannot contribute to this topic.

As for Sensotix:

it was an example
another example..thief wins vs warriors in tournys
thief wins vs ele in tournys
vs necros
vs mesmers
vs guardians
vs some engis
vs some rangers

again this is just an example to show you guys there is no atual counter

Sorry, but for me you lost all your credibility there (at the latest). I had been in top 200 – 250 aswell, but this is just total exaggeration. S/D SB isn’t a 1on1 build by all means and even with S/D 2x you won’t win as much encounters as you say it would.

In an even matchup (same skill &1on1 situation) a S/D thief should win against:
Staff + D/D Ele / any Guardian (bunker is endless) / Shatter Mesmer

It has a 50:50 chance against:
Average Necros + Spirit Rangers / Most Engineers, D/P Thieves / Other S/D Thieves

It will lose against:
Good Necros, Stun Warriors, Phantasm Mesmers, Spirit Ranger, Some Engies

Doesn’t seem OP to me. Also a stun Warrior should NEVER lose against a S/D thief, haha. Are you American or what? Nag Nag won over Caed, because Europeans skillevel is higher than American. Sorry to break it to you, but thats reality atm.

okay guys …i just talked to shh sh shad the thief of team shad who is currently leading the leaderboard team q….he also agreed on the things i mentioned being op…

Sensotix.4106:

okay guys …i just talked to shh sh shad the thief of team shad who is currently leading the leaderboard team q….he also agreed on the things i mentioned being op…

Good for him, you can have an incorrect opinion together.

What was this supposed to prove?

i am not american lol…
and no a thief can always win vs necros no matter how good they are..
engineers could actually be a problem i agree on that
and lol of course other thieves can win … that’s pretty obvious
and sry i have never seen a good s/d thief loosing to a good phantasm mesmer..
and lady nag nag killed several spirit rangers in the pax tournys (oh but wait if they have a 50/50 chance against another faceroll class (spirit ranger)) doesnt that prove that the spec is strong..?
and i dont know a thief should loose to a stunwarrior…have never seen that actually..

Sensotix.4106:

i am not talking about winning vs na…i am talking about winning vs car crash for example without a thief..

We’ll never know.

Still doesn’t explain how the teams with a mesmer beat the teams with an S/D thief in the ESL cup. Your claim that that ESL teams weren’t as good, is irrelevant since, even if true, it would apply to all the teams in question equally.

Both thieves who got eliminated are supposed to be good. Neither of them were able to shut down the mesmers. In fact the mesmers were the deciding factor in both these teams moving on to the finals.

Sensotix.4106:

i am not american lol…
and no a thief can always win vs necros no matter how good they are..
engineers could actually be a problem i agree on that
and lol of course other thieves can win … that’s pretty obvious
and sry i have never seen a good s/d thief loosing to a good phantasm mesmer..
and lady nag nag killed several spirit rangers in the pax tournys (oh but wait if they have a 50/50 chance against another faceroll class (spirit ranger)) doesnt that prove that the spec is strong..?
and i dont know a thief should loose to a stunwarrior…have never seen that actually..

I think I’ve made a mistake taking you seriously. Your responses have been growing more and more Troll-ish since people started challenging you opinion and pointing out where you’re wrong. All you’ve been able to provide is fallacious bullkitten and off topic babbling. Blanket statements like “Thief wins all the fights!” and “I talked to this guy, he agrees” have no value, they’re just word filler because you’re having a hard time coming up with a coherent argument. Have a good day.

P.S. – I just conferred with 30,000 players via special thief telepathy only we know about, many of them top ranked, and they agree with me.

okay if you move this way i will stop talking in this forum and let people who u apparently trust talk in the next state of the game and then you will see what they say
if you think I don’t know enough about the game after one year of playing in pvp and being in the top 100 leaderboard quite some time now I don’t know who you think has..

Were you top 100 while playing thief? Free tip, inf strike isn’t an excuse for not being able to escape from a s/d thief. After they use it to start the fight (which they should if they want a way out) move away from the original circle. If they want to close the gap they’ll have to return, which will just put them further away and unable to immobilize. I noticed that limitation within the first hour of playing the spec O_o

Another question, if a s/d thief doesn’t have great mobility what is the reason for taking it over another profession? The ability to grab that necro on the ledge is what makes it viable; why else would you want one on your team?

You falsely assume your credentials mean anything. Watching your video of the shatter mesmer, I still see you mouse clicking mirror images and it’s bound to E.

Before the thread got deleted in the other section you also made the argument that even the devs think sword + dagger thieves are op, yet you forgot to notice the fallacies in that line of argumentation, ’cause not only are the devs not changing anything about the abilities you are questioning, but you also missed all the negative changes that the developers have made to classes throughout the year and for which people at some point or another have made an argument and subsequently claimed that the devs agreed with them.

You also claim thieves to be pretty much incredible duelers, yet in your recent video showcasing how to beat a sword + dagger thief, the necro kicks the living kitten out of the thief.

okay i am actually pretty chilled again and i have a lot of time for a response so i will try to make it as clear as possible

when the necro buff hit everyone felt that mesmer wasnt viable anymore so i started playing the s/d thief since it fit perfectly in our team and it was kinda easy to play comparing it to shatter mesmer on high lvl tpvp

after some time i have tested a few things and discovered a viable mesmer build..now i am playing mesmer again
this is only possible because:
1. s/d thief is not that often played anymore
2. necros are not often played anymore

so why are these thieves not played anymore?
1. i have talked to some of the other top teams like shad or curse and both said they feel lame when playing a meta build like that (f.e. shad’S thief switched to pistolwhip) (xeph stopped playing the game)
2. the current meta is kinda tanky so it’s hard for the thief to keep up enough sustained dmg while surviving (i totally see the point why you would let the thief have so many evades) BUT the port to some highgrounds on several maps are just not justified because as i said it punishes good positioning

So and i love that you propose me to go to the place where he has his original circle because that’s exactly the problem…let’s take for example foefire…the thief is on their side of the graveyard attacking with shortbow..he then switches to s/d once he sees the mesmer engaging into the mid..when i for example try to do dmg to the thief he can port back so highground easily…and if you now propose me to kinda wait there for him it’s absolutely braindead because if i would do this i would have to overextend a lot and run through his whole team positioning themselves on highground till i get to him…and guess what he does then? he burst me down easily after his team has dealt quite some damage to me..
but on the opposite if he manages to bring me to 20% hp and i blink back to highground where the necro of my team is the thief just uses one port to get to me not having to run through my whole team waiting for someone to overextend and hits me 3 times before the necro stacks him enough conditions so he has to disengage (with just pressing one button also removing a condition or two)

that’s what i was saying
he has good sustained dmg
he has a huge amount of evades
he has a port (also port back which u can also use when stunned)
he has not only boon remove but even boon steal
he has condi remove on his weaponset
his main dmg attack is unblockable

thats what i mean…i am not here to nerf your loved thief to death i am just trying to get discussion rolling to get other ideas on how to change it in a way thieves players and non-thieves players are happy with

i am really not here to nerf it to death because that’s what most shatter mesmer felt like happened to them.

Point is, it isn’t overpowered so any change for the worse isn’t something non-thieves and thieves will be happy with. After everything is said and done, that’s it. Thieves have mobility and it is balanced. Learn, adapt, improve – that’s the last I’m replying to this. Hopefully it’ll die off like the rest of the complaints in this forum.

sorry but i can’t stop here
learn- i have dueled a lot of good s/d thieves and i sometimes win with my shatter mesmer
adapt-i have already adapted to the thief but then again i can’t adapt to condi spam (decision problem)
improve- i did

Sensotix.4106:

BUT the port to some highgrounds on several maps are just not justified because as i said it punishes good positioning

I have no problem discussing things with you when you actually make points. Thieves are designed to have the most mobility – they counter good positioning – that is their role in the game. They’ve constantly chipped away at thief survivability, and thief burst – they have to occupy some role in the game, or else they wouldn’t be taken at all. Countering good positioning is part of having great mobility- they’re the class that can harass you no matter where you go – there’s no issue with classes have strengths and weaknesses.

So and i love that you propose me to go to the place where he has his original circle because that’s exactly the problem…let’s take for example foefire…the thief is on their side of the graveyard attacking with shortbow..he then switches to s/d once he sees the mesmer engaging into the mid..when i for example try to do dmg to the thief he can port back so highground easily…and if you now propose me to kinda wait there for him it’s absolutely braindead because if i would do this i would have to overextend a lot and run through his whole team positioning themselves on highground till i get to him…and guess what he does then? he burst me down easily after his team has dealt quite some damage to me

Really? The S/D thief “Bursts you down”? Can I inquire as to how? You claim to have played S/D thief, but you seem unaware that their “burst” is nonexistent – they can do solid damage with a CS or LS crit, but that damage always pales in comparison to what a Dagger MH thief could do, or any other class spec’d for burst. Also, you are describing a scenario almost tailored for thieves – picking a target that has been weakened by their teammates and finishing it off. That’s what highly mobile bursty classes do.

but on the opposite if he manages to bring me to 20% hp and i blink back to highground where the necro of my team is the thief just uses one port to get to me not having to run through my whole team waiting for someone to overextend and hits me 3 times before the necro stacks him enough conditions so he has to disengage (with just pressing one button also removing a condition or two)

Again, there isn’t an issue with a class designed to counter good positioning – otherwise, whichever team got their first would always have the upper hand, and in a capture point scenario, that leads to boring, static tactics.

that’s what i was saying
he has good sustained dmg

When running zerkers, with stats any other Direct Damage spec would consider bursty. S/D has good sustained when running glass cannon. I would know, I run a 10/0/0/30/30 build with Soldiers, and it plays more like an attrition build than a sustained build.

he has a huge amount of evades

Evades are a skill check – there’s no blocks, there’s no in-class protection – evades are all or nothing. It’s easy to make an evade thief look OP because they take no damage for the first 10 seconds of combat, but the second those evades are used up, you’ll watch him melt.

he has a port (also port back which u can also use when stunned)

Highest mobility class. If you prefer the days of CnD->Steal->Mug->BS->HS til dead, just ask ANet to give thieves the burst they used to have back.

he has not only boon remove but even boon steal

Blame ANet here – they made boon bunkers a thing, and they were obviously OP. Before LS, there wasn’t a real cost associated with throwing all of your important boons up when the battle started, because you could spec to keep them up for nearly an entire fight, and boon removal was severley lacking.

he has condi remove on his weaponset

removing 1 condition for 5 total init isn’t exactly OP. It also forces a disengage if you desperately need a condition removed.

his main dmg attack is unblockable

Yes, 1 of the 2 attacks S/D has available to it that does decent damage is unblockable. Luckily, it’s heralded by a flashy spin, and the skill itself is also recognizable, with a .5 cast time – as I’ve said 100 times before, you can neuter an S/D’s damage by dodging CS and LS – you can easily eat any other attack.

thank you for your points and i can actually see what you mean and agree on most of them

Sensotix.4106:

thank you for your points and i can actually see what you mean and agree on most of them

Thanks.

I will agree with you one point – Inf Strike needs to be standardized – there are gaps Inf strike shouldn’t be able to get to with its listed range (Clocktower node, from directly beneath it outside the building), and there are also gaps it should easily be able to “walk to” when used that don’t work correctly. It’d be nice to see the shadowsteps in general fixed, because the “Can walk to spot using skills listed range” is applied almost haphazardly.

hm yes i also think the port through walls shouldnt work anywhere not only clocktower
apart from that i think it should be alright

Sensotix.4106:

hm yes i also think the port through walls shouldnt work anywhere not only clocktower
apart from that i think it should be alright

The only thing I can agree with.

Sensotix.4106:

There is no counter to perma evade – fact

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilize

This doesn’t counter it 100% but it is a counter.

Here is my opinion:

S/D has decent damage, great mobility, decent control, and decent survivability.

It has no burst, its not tanky, and it takes more skill to play well than many of the other strong builds out there.

To me, all this seems very balanced. S/D is considered the thiefs strongest build? Compare that to the strongest builds of other classes… it is very balanced.

I’m not sure what bringing up PAX proves.. I didn’t see that thief “owning” anyone. I did however see an Engineer legit 2v1 a THIEF and ele.

the 2 vs 1 from teldo at waterfall…i spoke to ben (lord nag nag nag) and he said both didnt want to waste their cooldowns since they thought it would be an easy matchup

well i thought i had to bring it up because i saw a s/d thief winning a 1 vs 1 vs warri..vs spirit ranger…vs necro..vs the other thief without loosing even 50% of his hp

BUT

Resume: I was really happy to have this discussion here and I am glad that I did post this thread here and not in the structured pvp section because there I wouldnt have gotten many impressions from thieves.
I am happy that most of you tried to stay obejctive and tell me exactly how they feel about it and actually came up with some interesting ideas that I really appreciate

And I also have to admit that I have tried to be a little bit provocative so I can see who of you guys really stays objective and calm because I was searching for an experienced thief to interview about changes he wants to see in the game/his class

Thanks for everything guys it was a pleasure to discuss with u!

Thief interview will hopefully follow soon

The last thing i want to add here
That is what Lord Nag Nag Nag the guardian from the pax winning team has written in the thief discussion in the german forum (so you guys dont say I invent it when i say I talk to him)

Einen guten S/D kannst du nicht Kontern. Die Lösung der meisten guten Teams im Teamfight ist auch kein gezielter cc, sonder stattdessen einfach den S/D zu ignorieren und sich auf andere Ziele zu konzentrieren. Die einzig wirkliche schwäche vom S/D ist der verhältnismäßig geringe dmg gegen Spieler im down state. Der S/D gilt ja grundsätzlich als einfach zu Spielen der skill-cap ist aber sehr hoch, es gibt aktuell vermutlich kein anderes build, dass einem Spieler ermöglicht so “beast” zu werden wie es auf einem S/D möglich ist.

Translation:
You cannot counter a god S/D Thief. The Solution from most of the top teams in teamfights is not to cc the thief but to ignore the s/d thief and focus on other targets.
The only real disadvantage of this thief is that he doesnt really have this huge pressure on downed enemies. The s/d thief is said to be easy to play but actually the skill-cap is quite huge and there is probably no other build that allows a very skilled player to be a “beast”

I can believe that. The skill ceiling comes from timing, positioning, and the big one.. decision making.

I am not nearly good enough to be considered OP with S/D, maybe its because I relied on it too much, but ever since they removed the stunbreaker from IS I have struggled.

Warriors are especially difficult for me, and good mesmers.

Sensotix.4106:

hm yes i also think the port through walls shouldnt work anywhere not only clocktower
apart from that i think it should be alright

Legit claim, I agree that some ports shouldn’t work, same goes for d/p’s shadowshooting upstairs, but thats mostly due to bad map designing. You can also CND on almost every object in Kyhlo, which is just silly. Bugfixing S/D: Yes. Nerfing: No.

Sensotix.4106:

i dont have to upload such a video just check the pax finale where lady nag nag nag pwns everything

Most of the big plays going into PAX were coming from the engineers(Elixir R and Big Ol’ Bomb, specifically)…not really sure why you would site a single tournament match as evidence for any class adjustment anyway.

S/D thief is not OP strong
Healing signet is OP imo
Minor trait that return endurance on dodge is OP. – change it to major trait and give might on dodge – that sounds fun enough for me.
The only thing that making S/D thief that strong – is a dodgetime, but still it can be controlled with S/P for example.
I’m thief myself and dislike S/D for its cheesyness – people complain on you being untouchable and trolling.
When you go S/P no one complains about amount of CC you provide, but you are still untouchable on top of being superior in teamfights to S/D.

It is hard to kill and s/d thief but not any harder to kill any other class with 30 trait points in survivability trait lines.

dDuff.3860:

S/D thief is not OP strong
Healing signet is OP imo
Minor trait that return endurance on dodge is OP. – change it to major trait and give might on dodge – that sounds fun enough for me.
The only thing that making S/D thief that strong – is a dodgetime, but still it can be controlled with S/P for example.
I’m thief myself and dislike S/D for its cheesyness – people complain on you being untouchable and trolling.
When you go S/P no one complains about amount of CC you provide, but you are still untouchable on top of being superior in teamfights to S/D.

Interesting. I consider S/D and S/P both in the cheese category, but you can’t blame the players for it. It is a design deficiency. All of the popular builds in the current meta are cheese flavored, so I don’t really see a point in having the academic argument about what is the cheesiest cheddar on the market at present.

In a perfect world S/D would get tweaked along with every other profession. Bottom line is since they started buffing classes to make them specifically counter the meta builds the power creep has spun way out of control. Somebody has got to hit the reset button and rethink what is going on here, because everything that is popular has little counter play in terms of ‘soft’ counters. If you want to kill X, then send Y to do it is what works right now. Hard counter or bust is stupid, but that is pretty much what we have.

Ya I know, all the meta builds are cheesy as hell and all revolve around mindless spamming.

S/D build actually has quite a high skill cap compared to most other meta builds, but it IS pretty cheesy.

Still, there are other builds that are more OP and cheesy right now that should be taken care of first like healing signet warrior and necro.

i think necro should be nerfed in damage but should be given a viable disengage
yes warrior….i think i will make a thread about it like another discussion one..i will try to make one for every class

Sensotix.4106:

it was an example
another example..thief wins vs warriors in tournys
thief wins vs ele in tournys
vs necros
vs mesmers
vs guardians
vs some engis
vs some rangers

again this is just an example to show you guys there is no atual counter

Man all those pro tpvp players are so bad they should all hear ya and buil a 5man thief team they would win everything so ezzz

Walker.3056:

Sensotix.4106:

it was an example
another example..thief wins vs warriors in tournys
thief wins vs ele in tournys
vs necros
vs mesmers
vs guardians
vs some engis
vs some rangers

again this is just an example to show you guys there is no atual counter

Man all those pro tpvp players are so bad they should all hear ya and buil a 5man thief team they would win everything so ezzz

Funny because in reality, having more than 1 thief means you just kitten yourself hard.

your 1.8k crit dmg with protection and tanky amulets is just fair if u have 30 critical strikes + 20% dmg from executioner trait and sword’s #1 attack speed is slow

shaving off thief’s ONLY viable build for tPvP. look @ the OPness of survival rotation of mesmers and all their breakstun skills are really good! Decoy, Blink, distortion, blurred frenzy 12secs CD (invulnerable) sword #3 Swap (although not mentioned, this non utility skill is a breaks stun), and when you’re in trouble switch to Staff #2 phase retreat that teleports you away from your target 1,200 range 8secs CD (traited) to kite away+Chaos Storm and resetting fights and cooldowns