Guild Wars 2

Sir Vincent III.1286:

And if you need to put points into Trickery, then I guess S/D is not the right weapon set for your play style.

I run 10/30/0/0/30.

I can tell you that S/D definitely fits my play style. Ask my victims. =)

JakobGW.5730:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

And if you need to put points into Trickery, then I guess S/D is not the right weapon set for your play style.

I run 10/30/0/0/30.

I can tell you that S/D definitely fits my play style. Ask my victims. =)

Do you run full berserker? What armor runes/weapon sigils do you use?

What traits do you run?

Thanks in advance!

RashanDale.3609:

S/D has enough mobility as it is that adding more dodges is simply overdoing it. And if you need to put points into Trickery, then I guess S/D is not the right weapon set for your play style.

do you have an actual argument why trickery is apparently so bad for S/D?

Trickery gives more Initiative that S/D simply doesn’t really need.

Just like putting points into Acrobatic to be able to have an extra dodge. That extra dodge will simply sit there and not contributing because S/D doesn’t need extra mobility while an extra damage is always active.

Trickery is the same. If you are using S/D and think that you need more Initiatives, then what I’m suggesting is you’re better off with D/x that will definitely take advantage of the extra initiative. Otherwise, you’re either wasting Initiative on unnecessary weapon skills, or that extra Initiative just sits there and not contributing.

Here’s a question though, what rotation are you using that an extra Initiative is required for you to put points into Trickery?

JakobGW.5730:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

And if you need to put points into Trickery, then I guess S/D is not the right weapon set for your play style.

I run 10/30/0/0/30.

I can tell you that S/D definitely fits my play style. Ask my victims. =)

What are you doing that you need 30pts into Trickery?

Don’t get too attached.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

RashanDale.3609:

S/D has enough mobility as it is that adding more dodges is simply overdoing it. And if you need to put points into Trickery, then I guess S/D is not the right weapon set for your play style.

do you have an actual argument why trickery is apparently so bad for S/D?

Trickery gives more Initiative that S/D simply doesn’t really need.

Just like putting points into Acrobatic to be able to have an extra dodge. That extra dodge will simply sit there and not contributing because S/D doesn’t need extra mobility while an extra damage is always active.

Trickery is the same. If you are using S/D and think that you need more Initiatives, then what I’m suggesting is you’re better off with D/x that will definitely take advantage of the extra initiative. Otherwise, you’re either wasting Initiative on unnecessary weapon skills, or that extra Initiative just sits there and not contributing.

Here’s a question though, what rotation are you using that an extra Initiative is required for you to put points into Trickery?

JakobGW.5730:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

And if you need to put points into Trickery, then I guess S/D is not the right weapon set for your play style.

I run 10/30/0/0/30.

I can tell you that S/D definitely fits my play style. Ask my victims. =)

What are you doing that you need 30pts into Trickery?

Vincent, 30 trickery is not for the initiative (though it plays nicely with the T3 minor) – it is to turn your steals into shutdowns. In PvE I run 25/30/0/0/15 because simply said you’re right about it being the best DPS and I could care less about shutting down a trash mob. Thrill of the Crime from a steal gives a nice DPS boost and the init minors are enough to keep me above 6 initiative for the extra 10% with active use of my #2. I crit 3-4k with my first two sword attacks and over 5-6k on my third. By swapping to 10/30/0/0/30 I give up about 500 damage max per swing on a standard target. What I gain is that my steals now strip two boons giving them to myself and those close around me (and this has turned many fights for me, especially on guardians), and a 1s daze (as you should take steal daze, not initiative on heal) turning my steal into an interrupt that gives me about 2 seconds to whale on the target (after adding the restarted attack animations to the target).

What this does is I do less on naked targets, more on buffed because I can make them naked without the expensive #3. I can daze them from any direction. I shave a little over 6 seconds off that powered up steal (over the 15 points I had, it’s 13.5s if you hadn’t traited). I still get 10%+ attack bonus from Lead Attacks making the only real DPS loss from sundering strikes and 150 power. On soft targets you will barely notice as you wouldn’t have landed many vulns anyways, and if you have others stacking the vulns on the harder targets, you actually hit just as hard at full initiative as the 5% more attack covers the power difference.

Give it a try before you knock it Vincent. :p

Drawing Guy.3701:

Vincent, 30 trickery is not for the initiative (though it plays nicely with the T3 minor) – it is to turn your steals into shutdowns. In PvE I run 25/30/0/0/15 because simply said you’re right about it being the best DPS and I could care less about shutting down a trash mob.

That’s my take on it also. If you ever want to shutdown anything in PvE, you’re better off with blind, which is only 10pts in SA rather than spending 30pts for a 1s stun. Besides, as I said, you’re already using S/D and the sneak attack is all you need if you ever want to disable your target.

If that is the only reason why you are maxing Trickery then it’s a waste since you can convert those trait points into damage.

Still didn’t answer the question why would you want to spend 30pts if you already have access to disabling skill even without spec-ing any traits using S/D.

Thrill of the Crime from a steal gives a nice DPS boost and the init minors are enough to keep me above 6 initiative for the extra 10% with active use of my #2.

25pts in DA achieves more than that since you can only steal every 35s. Exposed Weakness covers the 10% dmg boost since your target will have a condition until it dies. If you want another 10% dmg boost, you can spec for Improvisation that gives you 10% dmg boost as long as you don’t use your stolen property.

I crit 3-4k with my first two sword attacks and over 5-6k on my third. By swapping to 10/30/0/0/30 I give up about 500 damage max per swing on a standard target. What I gain is that my steals now strip two boons giving them to myself and those close around me (and this has turned many fights for me, especially on guardians), and a 1s daze (as you should take steal daze, not initiative on heal) turning my steal into an interrupt that gives me about 2 seconds to whale on the target (after adding the restarted attack animations to the target).

This is solely a PvP perspective, which I agree. But the OP is talking about PvE and WvW. In WvW, you’ll get better boons from other professions than what you can provide with TotC.

What this does is I do less on naked targets, more on buffed because I can make them naked without the expensive #3. I can daze them from any direction. I shave a little over 6 seconds off that powered up steal (over the 15 points I had, it’s 13.5s if you hadn’t traited). I still get 10%+ attack bonus from Lead Attacks making the only real DPS loss from sundering strikes and 150 power. On soft targets you will barely notice as you wouldn’t have landed many vulns anyways, and if you have others stacking the vulns on the harder targets, you actually hit just as hard at full initiative as the 5% more attack covers the power difference.

The same argument is true about your powered up steal if other player stacking the buffs as well as conditions. A lot of what you posted doesn’t really support the reasoning behind why someone will put 30pts into Trickery. If damage is your goal, then it is more reasonable to spec for DA. Otherwise, allocating for Trickery is really all about Initiatives.

Give it a try before you knock it Vincent. :p

I’m not knocking it. I am simply asking for any reason why someone would consider Trickery with an S/D weapon set when a D/x is way better for this spec.

Your explanation, although understandable, still not convincing enough since there are other avenues where you can get better results.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Trickery is the same. If you are using S/D and think that you need more Initiatives, then what I’m suggesting is you’re better off with D/x that will definitely take advantage of the extra initiative. Otherwise, you’re either wasting Initiative on unnecessary weapon skills, or that extra Initiative just sits there and not contributing.

If you’re saying that unspent, extra initiative is useless, then you’re not paying attention to the Trickery line. Although the line has multiple purposes, one major one is the ability to regenerate initiative quickly. No other minor trait can give a damage bonus more so than Trickery. At full initiative, Lead Attacks can give you 15% damage increase. Thus, one way of taking advantage of the line is not by spending initiative on skills, which is what you are focusing on, but by conserving initiative on lower cost skills while regenerating initiative at a quicker rate.

When you combine Lead Attacks with First Strikes (10% damage when above 6 initiative) and Executioner (20% damage increase), you become a powerhouse at 50% health. So, the trick (no pun intended!) is to keep your initiative high by using less on skills and more on harder hitting, less costly abilities. This is where S/D shines.

Everyone knows that the #1 weapon chain by S/D is pretty powerful. By using it, you’re conserving initiative and dishing some good damage. FS, when used at the right time, can easily do 6k – 9k (watch my videos) for 4 initiative! That’s an awesome damage to initiative ratio. When I want to get in close to my target, it only costs me 3 initiative to do so; but when I combine IS + Steal, with Kleptomaniac, it costs me nothing.

Now, you could possibly argue that this type of play style can be done with D/x as well. And you would be right. But I can guarantee you that you do not have the mobility needed to fully take advantage of the conserved initiative damage increase with any D/x build because you have to spend so much more initiative to even get close to your target and not die.

Example: Using Shadow Shot for 4 initiative gets you close to your target but does HALF the damage as Flanking Strike, no evade, doesn’t strip a boon and is blockable. Not to mention you can’t get away without spending initiative because you don’t have Shadow Return. Thus you have to spend 9 initiative (7 if traited) just to get away/stealth (using the HS + BP combo) as you see in Yishis’s videos. By doing so, you’ve just nerfed your damage by 11% – 13% depending on traits. So what have you done? You’ve managed to hit your target for 4k and weaken your damage by up to 13%.

Let’s look at S/D: Using IS I do 3k damage to my target for 3 initiative. I can then using FS for 9k damage and then return to my original spot for 2 more initiative. Thus, I’ve nerfed my damage by 9% max but I’ve done close to 12k damage. If I add in a Mug, I’ll easily do 15k – 18k for 6 initiative!

Trickery with S/D just works and it works very well. I’ve been experimenting with it since November and I can tell you that it’s a very viable and effective way of playing the thief. People have different play styles, but for me, S/D is fun, and I enjoy the challenge of thinking the exact opposite of the majority of the thief population: use less skills for more damage!

This thread is proof that Thief traits are awesome. Few classes have so many viable alternatives for their builds.

JakobGW.5730:

~snip~
At full initiative, Lead Attacks can give you 15% damage increase. Thus, one way of taking advantage of the line is not by spending initiative on skills, which is what you are focusing on, but by conserving initiative on lower cost skills while regenerating initiative at a quicker rate.

When you combine Lead Attacks with First Strikes (10% damage when above 6 initiative) and Executioner (20% damage increase), you become a powerhouse at 50% health.
~snip~

25 in DA also receives bonus from First Strikes and Executioner, so you’re only chip is Lead Attacks. Sure Lead Attacks grants you 15% dmg boost, but 25 in DA gives you 20% dmg boost (Exp Weak + Improv) on top of +150 Power and +15% condition duration (compare to 10/30/0/0/30 build) difference. Then add First Strikes and Executioner to the equation and you got a lot of dmg boost.

Compare that to a dwindling damage boost given by Lead Attacks every time you spent initiative. Every use of CnD is -6% from your dmg output. That’s just too much restriction in keeping your DPS higher.

Everyone knows that the #1 weapon chain by S/D is pretty powerful. By using it, you’re conserving initiative and dishing some good damage. FS, when used at the right time, can easily do 6k – 9k (watch my videos) for 4 initiative! That’s an awesome damage to initiative ratio. When I want to get in close to my target, it only costs me 3 initiative to do so; but when I combine IS + Steal, with Kleptomaniac, it costs me nothing.

You just proved what I said to be true. Anyone spec-ing into Trickery is really only after the Initiative boost. With 25 in DA, your first Steals gives you a +20% dmg boost right off the bat because of Exposed Weakness and Improvisation. If I use my FS, my dmg doesn’t drop by 4%. When I use IS, my dmg doesn’t drop by 3% even if spec-ing into Trickery gives me a refund. When I use CnD, my dmg doesn’t drop by 6%, etc.

~snip~
But I can guarantee you that you do not have the mobility needed to fully take advantage of the conserved initiative damage increase with any D/x build because you have to spend so much more initiative to even get close to your target and not die.

It is ideal for D/x because that initial first attack is boosted so high that a back stab will really leave a mark. The initiative boost is not for decoration, it’s for spending, and S/D is not a spender. A D/x build deals more damage when spending the initiative than what Lead Attacks’ negative boost dmg reduction. That’s why putting points into Trickery will benefit D/x more than S/D.

Example: Using Shadow Shot for 4 initiative ~snip~

That’s not a very good example and you know it. :/

Let’s look at S/D: ~snip~

Further evidence that spec-ing Trickery is mainly for initiatives. And it seems that Lead Attack is starting to concern you also.

Trickery with S/D just works and it works very well. I’ve been experimenting with it since November and I can tell you that it’s a very viable and effective way of playing the thief. People have different play styles, but for me, S/D is fun, and I enjoy the challenge of thinking the exact opposite of the majority of the thief population: use less skills for more damage!

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m simply saying that if your goal is damage output for S/D, you’re better off not spec-ing Trickery. But if your goal is max Initiative and Initiative gain, then spec Trickery.

The only reason someone will spec for Trickery is when they like spamming their weapon skills, rather than tactically using each one. If you are using your weapon skills tactically, the base initiative of 12 points is more than enough, which no need to spec for Trickery. The bulk of the S/D dmg is really coming from Sword #1’s third strike, which means the rest of the weapon skills in the set are for utility. Some might find this boring but that’s what tactics is all about.

In a build of 10/30/0/0/30, survivability is totally abandoned and less likely to stay in a fight longer than a build that spec for either SA or Acro or both.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

25 in DA also receives bonus from First Strikes and Executioner, so you’re only chip is Lead Attacks. Sure Lead Attacks grants you 15% dmg boost, but 25 in DA gives you 20% dmg boost (Exp Weak + Improv) on top of +150 Power and +15% condition duration (compare to 10/30/0/0/30 build) difference. Then add First Strikes and Executioner to the equation and you got a lot of dmg boost.

I’ve tested, and so have others, that Improv does NOT increase the damage of the thief, only the damage of the bundle:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Question-about-new-Improvisation

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You just proved what I said to be true. Anyone spec-ing into Trickery is really only after the Initiative boost. With 25 in DA, your first Steals gives you a +20% dmg boost right off the bat because of Exposed Weakness and Improvisation. If I use my FS, my dmg doesn’t drop by 4%. When I use IS, my dmg doesn’t drop by 3% even if spec-ing into Trickery gives me a refund. When I use CnD, my dmg doesn’t drop by 6%, etc.

Without initiative regen, using too many skills will nerf your damage by 10% from First Strikes. Not only does DA not have the additional initiative to easily stay above the threshold of 6 initiative, but it also doesn’t have any initiative regen. When you use one C&D with ANY other skill, you’ve just nerfed your damage by 10% unless you have a good way of getting it back quickly. DA doesn’t have that ability. Trickery does.

It is official I suck at thief. I did not realize “Improvisation” gave 10% damage when keeping a stolen item – I just read “bundles” and thought ‘environmental weapons’. That 10% there has kicked my DPS numbers in the nuts, so a 10/30/0/0/30 can’t compare.

Looks like I’m always sticking to my 25/30/x/x/x like I’ve done for 99% of my thief’s life anyways. Question to ask myself, Sundering Strikes or Mug? And how do I want to spend those last 15 points? =d

Then Jakob posted – kitten Maybe I should actually use the trait for once and find out for myself. XD

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The only reason someone will spec for Trickery is when they like spamming their weapon skills, rather than tactically using each one. If you are using your weapon skills tactically, the base initiative of 12 points is more than enough, which no need to spec for Trickery. The bulk of the S/D dmg is really coming from Sword #1’s third strike, which means the rest of the weapon skills in the set are for utility. Some might find this boring but that’s what tactics is all about.

It’s funny you posted this. Your reason is the exact opposite why I spec Trickery. I don’t spam skills. Watch my video for just 2 minutes. You’ll see that most of my kills are after simply using a mere 6 initiative (mostly from C&D). That’s the strength of the line: not using initiative.

Also, please see the thread about skill coefficents and damage multipliers. I will link it if you can’t find it. There you will see that FS actually does MORE damage than the autoattack chain. I don’t know about you, but if I have to spend only 4 initiative for an unblockable boon strip, one second evade, and 9k damage, I’ll spend the 4 initiative. That, to me, doesn’t sound like merely a “utility.”

EDIT: Here, I’m going to post it anyways, just to make things easier for you. =)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Skill-Coefficients-for-all-the-Thief-weapons/first#post467096

JakobGW.5730:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

25 in DA also receives bonus from First Strikes and Executioner, so you’re only chip is Lead Attacks. Sure Lead Attacks grants you 15% dmg boost, but 25 in DA gives you 20% dmg boost (Exp Weak + Improv) on top of +150 Power and +15% condition duration (compare to 10/30/0/0/30 build) difference. Then add First Strikes and Executioner to the equation and you got a lot of dmg boost.

I’ve tested, and so have others, that Improv does NOT increase the damage of the thief, only the damage of the bundle:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Question-about-new-Improvisation

There are conflicting reports that it doesn’t increase the bundle’s damage either. Others believed it to be bugged since not all stolen items deal damage.

But if your findings are true, then I will run another test tonight then append my findings to that forum. AFAIK, it works as stated but it seems that it warrants a more recent testing.

JakobGW.5730:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The only reason someone will spec for Trickery is when they like spamming their weapon skills, rather than tactically using each one. If you are using your weapon skills tactically, the base initiative of 12 points is more than enough, which no need to spec for Trickery. The bulk of the S/D dmg is really coming from Sword #1’s third strike, which means the rest of the weapon skills in the set are for utility. Some might find this boring but that’s what tactics is all about.

It’s funny you posted this. Your reason is the exact opposite why I spec Trickery. I don’t spam skills. Watch my video for just 2 minutes. You’ll see that most of my kills are after simply using a mere 6 initiative (mostly from C&D). That’s the strength of the line: not using initiative.

Also, please see the thread about skill coefficents and damage multipliers. I will link it if you can’t find it. There you will see that FS actually does MORE damage than the autoattack chain. I don’t know about you, but if I have to spend only 4 initiative for an unblockable boon strip, one second evade, and 9k damage, I’ll spend the 4 initiative. That, to me, doesn’t sound like merely a “utility.”

EDIT: Here, I’m going to post it anyways, just to make things easier for you. =)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Skill-Coefficients-for-all-the-Thief-weapons/first#post467096

I run trickery sets and DA sets. The problem with taking trickery is that you have 300 stats going completely to waste until you switch to a shortbow. If you’re running a Sword in one hand and dagger as your swap? Your whole build outside of say a 10s immobilize from kleptomaniac or so, has 300 stats sitting around unused.
Tactics wise for sure there is plenty in taking Trickery, you’re pretty much taking trickery for utility, not damage to begin with, especially consider 300 condition damage sitting doing nothing, so to say it’s not “tactical” is off in the context hes using.

This statement …

JakobGW.5730:

Without initiative regen, using too many skills will nerf your damage by 10% from First Strikes. Not only does DA not have the additional initiative to easily stay above the threshold of 6 initiative, but it also doesn’t have any initiative regen. When you use one C&D with ANY other skill, you’ve just nerfed your damage by 10% unless you have a good way of getting it back quickly. DA doesn’t have that ability. Trickery does.

..contradicts this statement…

JakobGW.5730:

It’s funny you posted this. Your reason is the exact opposite why I spec Trickery. I don’t spam skills. Watch my video for just 2 minutes. You’ll see that most of my kills are after simply using a mere 6 initiative (mostly from C&D). That’s the strength of the line: not using initiative.

…so, either I need Trickery so I won’t run out of Initiative or I’m simply keeping my initiative in reserve which defeats the purpose of spec-ing into Trickery in the first place.

I agree with your first statement since that is where I stand, but I disagree with your second statement.

Doesn’t make any sense to spec for Trickery when you’re not going to take advantage of max initiative and initiative regen.

Also, please see the thread about skill coefficents and damage multipliers. I will link it if you can’t find it. There you will see that FS actually does MORE damage than the autoattack chain.

There’s a really nice spreadsheet that you can use to compare the two and the difference in damage is roughly 3k in favor of Sword #1. Beside AA is free, no init cost.

I don’t know about you, but if I have to spend only 4 initiative for an unblockable boon strip, one second evade, and 9k damage, I’ll spend the 4 initiative. That, to me, doesn’t sound like merely a “utility.”

There are 2 utilities in FS, evade and boon strip, which I find more valuable to use appropriately than simply for damage. If you’re fighting against someone without boon, more reason to save it for tactical purposes.

EDIT: Here, I’m going to post it anyways, just to make things easier for you. =)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Skill-Coefficients-for-all-the-Thief-weapons/first#post467096

Just use the spreadsheet found here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Build-The-REAL-maximum-DPS-thief/first#post1895342

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…so, either I need Trickery so I won’t run out of Initiative or I’m simply keeping my initiative in reserve which defeats the purpose of spec-ing into Trickery in the first place.

Doesn’t make any sense to spec for Trickery when you’re not going to take advantage of max initiative and initiative regen.

One last post because it appears we’re not going to agree. With all due respect, your statements are why so many folks get tunnel-visioned into one aspect of playing. You think that initiative is only there to spend. But you’re not thinking outside the box. Think about a play style where initiative is not merely there to spend, but to keep. To you, and probably to a lot of players, this is counter-intuitive. To me, it’s a play style that Trickery embraces.

The idea behind Trickery is to keep your initiative high. Despite your statement, keeping your initiative in reserve does not defeat the line’s purpose. This is obviously demonstrated by Lead Attacks, a trait that is only beneficial if you have proper initiative management. Higher initiative means higher damage.

You think that the only way to “take advantage” of the high initiative is to spend it on skills. According to your statement, it doesn’t make sense to you to have high initiative and not take advantage of it. So to you, more initiative means only one thing: more skills to use.

But to me, more initiative means higher damage. When played correctly, it is possible that I can increase my damage by 45% once my target hits half-health. It’s a possibility that happens all the time with proper initiative management and regen. The exact opposite is true for DA. It happens all the time that you’re below 6 initiative once your target hits 50% because you don’t begin with as much initiative and you don’t have any regen. This means your damage is only increased by 30%. At the absolute most it can be increased by 45% if you wield a dagger main-hand and you have more than 6 initiative which is difficult to achieve in hectic WvW combat.

You asked me earlier in this thread why I chose Trickery for my play style. Hopefully I’ve explained it to you. I know it works, and it works well. I’ve attempted to show some good examples with my videos. I suppose they speak for themselves.

Interestingly enough I’ve received several PM’s regarding my spec and gear. So here it is:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.5|c.1g.h17.8.1g.h10|8.1g.h2.a.1g.h4|1p.71j.1g.71j.1n.71j.1g.71j.1p.71j.1g.71j|2t.0.2s.0.2t.0.1n.67.1g.67.cg.67|a3.u16b.0.0.u25b|39.7|59.q.5c.5b.5u|e

A short guide how to play the build can be found here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-S-D-D-P-solo-and-skirmishing/first#post1769267

appreciated – will hit you up in game in mail – check soon

JakobGW.5730:

Interestingly enough I’ve received several PM’s regarding my spec and gear. So here it is:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.5|c.1g.h17.8.1g.h10|8.1g.h2.a.1g.h4|1p.71j.1g.71j.1n.71j.1g.71j.1p.71j.1g.71j|2t.0.2s.0.2t.0.1n.67.1g.67.cg.67|a3.u16b.0.0.u25b|39.7|59.q.5c.5b.5u|e

A short guide how to play the build can be found here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-S-D-D-P-solo-and-skirmishing/first#post1769267

Jakob, how do you fare without points in the defensive traits?i realize your video is a statement of your survivability, but video can be cut.. do you use the same traits for pve as well?

not going to tell you guys what to do. but s/d is my love and i really use it every day. 12500 kills on thief in wvw alone. that said. i use 0 30 20 20 0 ….. i run this with certain traits so i can switch to d/p and both builds are viable at the same time!!! i mean if ur in a huge zerg u prolly want SB as backup but anything smaller you want d/p for the blinds and invis attacking. s/d main works just as well. keeping up the intiative so you can keep using infiltrators strike! id say about 40% of all the dmg in s/d comes from infiltrators strike. get em immobilized then 2 hits then repeat. that alot can really get you on the right path. blind on invis…..hidden killer….2 intiative per 10 secs…..infiltrators signet…..remove condis on stealth….50% less fall dmg……extra vitality in crit line…..furiious retaliation . enjoy oh and use the sigils that give something on switching. since i switch alot they help….alot.

iNaddict.8021:

JakobGW.5730:

Interestingly enough I’ve received several PM’s regarding my spec and gear. So here it is:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.5|c.1g.h17.8.1g.h10|8.1g.h2.a.1g.h4|1p.71j.1g.71j.1n.71j.1g.71j.1p.71j.1g.71j|2t.0.2s.0.2t.0.1n.67.1g.67.cg.67|a3.u16b.0.0.u25b|39.7|59.q.5c.5b.5u|e

A short guide how to play the build can be found here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-S-D-D-P-solo-and-skirmishing/first#post1769267

Jakob, how do you fare without points in the defensive traits?i realize your video is a statement of your survivability, but video can be cut.. do you use the same traits for pve as well?

Your defenses are still there, just not very conventional. Here are a couple of examples:

No armor from Shadow Arts or health from Acrobatics –
You could have over 30k health and 3k armor but that doesn’t mean kitten if you are never hit. Infiltrator Srike is your defense here. Use it to pop quickly in a fight then pop out. You are the master of the battlefield. Use it to your advantage. Don’t let the enemy hit you. Once you master that, any amount of health above 15k or armor above 2200 becomes overkill.

No endurance on dodge means less evades -
Don’t under estimate the power of Flanking Strike. Its evade is practically the same as a dodge; it just happens to also do damage. Try to consider it as just another dodge. All you have to do is get used to its positioning.

No health regeneration from stealth –
First, see above regarding damage intake. Second, Withdraw is your defense here. Infiltrator Strike in and pop out when necessary. If you have to pop out due to damage, hit Withdraw and push yourself even further from the fight. Be patient and let the 15 second cooldown tick a bit. Infiltrator Strike back in when ready. Reset the fight if necessary. If you’re taking too much damage and you feel like you need a steady regen from stealth, you’re playing the build wrong.

I do very minimal PvE, but I’ve never had issues with the build using the above strategies.

Pavel.8531:

1 – I use s/d with a 10/30/30/0/0 almost full GC build and it works wonders . Flanking strike is bad, because it doesn’t keep with the target, sometimes you can miss a totally still target too, because of its bad movement.

Wouldn’t it be nice if instead of moving around to the back of the opponent it was simply a shadowstep to their back, instant and attaches to their back, so as to take the movement out of the picture while still fitting in perfectly with the skill. It could even be such that the first attack is done to the front, and the second attack after the flank and does the boon stripping to ensure you actually have to land the attack.

For those curious, I again tested Improvisation last night to confirm my previous testing. I used only armor with divinity runes, a berserker trinket and a sword with no sigil. I put only enough points into DA to get one trait: Improvisation. I swung each time on the golem and only recorded non-crits. I hit the golem 20 times without holding a stolen item, and then I did the same thing after holding a stolen item.

No bundle: 640 641 587 620 627 642 629 585 631 614 616 628 601 626 588 600 605 596 619 603: Average: 614.9 per swing

Bundle: 592 590 587 630 643 587 619 613 623 603 640 642 587 627 616 612 586 614 598 586: Average 609.75 per swing

Obviously RNG plays a factor here, but I didn’t do any more tests because I’ve done this all before months ago. I was just confirming my previous research.

Conclusion: Improvisation does not increase the damage of the thief, only the bundle, if it even does that.

Also tested and can confirm no difference. Mug and Sundering Strikes are the obvious choices in DA unless you also use venoms.

I then compared it to a 10/30/0/0/30. At full initiative, it did come slightly lower, but could easily be attributed to RNG. Under standard play use, my numbers were hitting about 200 lower. Heavier use would push over 500. It is of course debatable – your swords have the advantage of doing everything you’re turning your swords into already, so is it worth it at the cost of DPS? I admit I’ve let the steals spoil me – I found myself not using #3 to boon strip as much as I should as the steal made it where I didn’t have to really worry on the non-buff-heavy classes so I didn’t pay proper attention. I’ll need to practice the 25/30/x/x/x (still debating between 15 SA and 15 trick) before I can say which is better (at least to me).

JakobGW.5730:

No bundle: 640 641 587 620 627 642 629 585 631 614 616 628 601 626 588 600 605 596 619 603: Average: 614.9 per swing

Bundle: 592 590 587 630 643 587 619 613 623 603 640 642 587 627 616 612 586 614 598 586: Average 609.75 per swing

Obviously RNG plays a factor here, but I didn’t do any more tests because I’ve done this all before months ago. I was just confirming my previous research.

Conclusion: Improvisation does not increase the damage of the thief, only the bundle, if it even does that.

I got completely different result. I use the same setup as you, but I used a sword and spammed Stab and record each non-crit value.

no bundle: 873 899 903 896 922 930 904 937 929 884 932 892 953 918 949 = ave. 914.73
w/ bundle: 948 951 930 949 882 906 914 934 883 918 915 920 924 879 883 = ave. 916.93

This is why I said that there’s a conflict in results.

I will run another test outside the Mist later on, for now, I’m going to play the game.